NationStates Jolt Archive

The leader of the South Pacific island nation of Kiribati laid out an extraordinary plan Monday (Sept. 22) that would scatter his people through the nations of the world as rising sea levels submerge the islands they have called home for centuries.

President Anote Tong said the half-meter sea level rise projected by climate scientists over the next century would submerge a significant proportion of the land on which his people live. Salinization of ground water due to rising seas would render even more land uninhabitable.

[...] [M]ost of Kiribati’s territory lies within two meters of sea level.
“Most [islands] are so narrow that if you stand on the ocean side and shout, the people on the lagoon side will hear you,” Tong said.
Tong spoke at the Science Center as part of the Harvard University Center for the Environment’s “Green Conversations” lecture series.

[...] Tong’s plan to relocate Kiribati’s 100,000 people was born, Tong said, out of the realization that he had to do something. If scientists are right, his nation is facing a humanitarian crisis and the world isn’t paying attention, he said. Kiribati residents have already seen unusual natural events that could be due to climate change, such as higher tides, coral bleaching, and a recent 12-month drought.

The government plans to continue to repair damaged public buildings on the waterfront but is advising private entities and residents to move back from the shoreline. The problem is that they are running out of room.

“We are in danger of falling off the other side if we keep moving back,” Tong said.
Tong said he is sometimes frustrated by the lack of response he’s received. Though Kiribati is one of the world’s lowest emitters of greenhouse gases, it will be one of the first areas to feel the effects of changes brought on by industrialized nations. Even so, Tong said, when he talks about the coming humanitarian disaster, other nations only want to talk about terrorism or the economic impact of steps to curb global warming.

“While it may be a matter of economics for some of you, for us it’s not economics; it’s a matter of survival,” he said.

[...] Tong’s proposal would have groups of Kiribati citizens — perhaps 1,000 per year — receive job training and then seek skilled jobs in other nations. They would form a dispersed resource that others could turn to as the environmental situation becomes critical at home.

Job training is an important component of his plan, he said, because he would like the dispersal to occur methodically and with as much dignity as possible; he does not wish for his people to wind up as environmental refugees.

The plan has already begun to be implemented, with small groups of nurses going to Australia for training and other workers to New Zealand.

“Hopefully, our people will spread out so that when the time comes they will assist with the integration of [the rest of our] people into their communities … and also make it easier on the host country,” Tong said.


(link (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2008/09.25/13-kiribati.html))

What do you think of his idea?

Didn't you post about this before?

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=558277)

Didn't you post about this before?

Link (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=558277)

A mirror of what the world says to Kiribati...

'Haven't you complained about this before, can't you come up with something new?'

I find this quote ironic:

"It's not an issue of economic growth, it's an issue of human survival". (from the 6-6-08 thread)

A mirror of what the world says to Kiribati...

'Haven't you complained about this before, can't you come up with something new?'
Well, what else can we do? Other than make an organised effort to help them move and get settled in elsewhere, I suppose. We're trying our best to deal with the climate change issue amid considerable adversity from particular movements, so unless the country can hang on for a while, this is probably the best plan.

Who thinks the likes of TAI would prefer that they all drown rather than let his dreaded (non-Caucasian) foreign immigrants enter other countries?

And Kamsaki has the right of it. What else can be realistically done? Other than say, shipping how many millions of tons of dirt into the islands as a vertical land reclamation attempt. Kiribati most likely can't afford that, so this is the next best option.

I figured that it would, y'know, be like the movie Waterworld, but just non-fiction. :P

To be serious, yeah, his plan sounds, well... sound. I mean, announcing it a full four decades or more before the plan may even come into effect is more political than anything (duh, politician), but at least he's not sticking his head in the sand and denying the problem away.

(link (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2008/09.25/13-kiribati.html))

What do you think of his idea?

I like it (not the situation, but the solution), but I think that the US and China (the largest greenhouse gas emitters) should be required to take in any of the Kiribati population who choose to move there.

Australia and New Zealand are convenient due to their proximity, but the US and China are more capable of absorbing a large influx of immigrants, and they are more responsible for the problem that Kiribati faces than any other nation(s).

Didn't you post about this before?


No. This thread is about his proposed solution.

I like it (not the situation, but the solution), but I think that the US and China (the largest greenhouse gas emitters) should be required to take in any of the Kiribati population who choose to move there.

Australia and New Zealand are convenient due to their proximity, but the US and China are more capable of absorbing a large influx of immigrants, and they are more responsible for the problem that Kiribati faces than any other nation(s).

The question in that case is, would any US leader consider it politically profitable to do so? As for China... I think that would be even more of a culture shock for the I-Kiribati than moving to the US. Not only because the culture is so different, but because there aren't many immigrants in China, and there's the language barrier. (It may be feasible for Kiribati's small Chinese community - of which President Tong, incidentally, is one.)

The question in that case is, would any US leader consider it politically profitable to do so?

I figure it would be. They score emotional points by taking in people that were removed from their land by natural disaster, and they may score enviro points (if measured by electron microscope) because it appears that they seem willing to accept that they may be part of the problem.

Plus, IIRC, there's already a plan in place to allow easier access to green cards for people hailing from countries that represent a sliver of immigration to the US, but that may just be for certain countries...

To be serious, yeah, his plan sounds, well... sound. I mean, announcing it a full four decades or more before the plan may even come into effect is more political than anything (duh, politician), but at least he's not sticking his head in the sand and denying the problem away.

Announcing it now isn't only for political reasons, I think. Remember, he's trying to get 100,000 people (not counting those still unborn) out of the country within a few decades. If you're going to achieve that, you need to get started as soon as possible.

I figure it would be. They score emotional points by taking in people that were removed from their land by natural disaster, and they may score enviro points (if measured by electron microscope) because it appears that they seem willing to accept that they may be part of the problem.

Plus, IIRC, there's already a plan in place to allow easier access to green cards for people hailing from countries that represent a sliver of immigration to the US, but that may just be for certain countries...

*nods*

The question in that case is, would any US leader consider it politically profitable to do so?

Politically profitable? Hard to say, but Christmahanikwanzikah covered that one nicely.

As for China... I think that would be even more of a culture shock for the I-Kiribati than moving to the US. Not only because the culture is so different, but because there aren't many immigrants in China, and there's the language barrier. (It may be feasible for Kiribati's small Chinese community - of which President Tong, incidentally, is one.)

I would think that Shanghai and Hong Kong, significantly more cosmopolitan than the rest of China, would be able to handle the immigrants. The language/culture issue would be more significant in China, but it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

The US West Coast metropolitan areas already have large immigrant communities from Pacifc nations, so I obviously agree that these would be better suited to handle the influx.

I think that the Australian government has made offers that, in the event of sea level rising, Australia will help out.
Who is going to help with the Texans and Louisianans?

What do you think of his idea?

As a Kiwi, I don't see any issue with having the entire nation of Kiribati migrating to our shores; an additional 100,000 people would enable us to have a larger labour pool to draw from, and since we have a large number of Pacific Islanders already, the people will not really feel out of place.

The only issue is that we are mountainous, so they would not be used to it, but otherwise, I believe that it would be better if they move here instead of the PRC and the United States. Of course, the New Zealand Government should be duly compensated by these mass polluters.

My partner wants to move to kiwi-land to escape the worst of global warming - the Aussie sun gets bloody hot. It's early spring and its starting to get into the mid 20's already. By November it will be in the 30's and there will be several days of 40+ degrees. And we're in Melbourne which is supposed to be one of the more temperate parts of Australia.

My partner wants to move to kiwi-land to escape the worst of global warming - the Aussie sun gets bloody hot. It's early spring and its starting to get into the mid 20's already. By November it will be in the 30's and there will be several days of 40+ degrees. And we're in Melbourne which is supposed to be one of the more temperate parts of Australia.

Well, that would be nice if the tide were turned, we have lost enough people already.

If I was the President of Kiribati I would be organising the building of a pirate fleet.

If I was the President of Kiribati I would be organising the building of a pirate fleet.

Sometimes the best ideas are the simplest.

That sound likr the plot line in Kevin Costner's film, "Waterworld".

Well, clearly this is all an attempt to distract us from furthering the war on terrorism! In fact, I dare say that Kiribati supports terrorism and should be added to the Axis of Evil!

Well, clearly this is all an attempt to distract us from furthering the war on terrorism! In fact, I dare say that Kiribati supports terrorism and should be added to the Axis of Evil!

This is irrelevant to the point in your post and to the thread in general, I know, but I've just noticed that "the Axis of Evil" is an anagram of "Hi, I love fat sex". That was all... carry on :)

This is irrelevant to the point in your post and to the thread in general, I know, but I've just noticed that "the Axis of Evil" is an anagram of "Hi, I love fat sex". That was all... carry on :)

Well it's not truly anagrammatical since there's no comma. It'd just be "Hi I love fat sex."

Unless we added a comma to the original. "The Axis, of Evil." That sounds a bit right, doesn't it?

Maybe even some ellipses. "The Axis... of Evil!" Then it could be "Hi... I love fat sex." Which sounds right to me too.

This is irrelevant to the point in your post and to the thread in general, I know, but I've just noticed that "the Axis of Evil" is an anagram of "Hi, I love fat sex". That was all... carry on :)

Sigged.

I think that the Australian government has made offers that, in the event of sea level rising, Australia will help out.
Who is going to help with the Texans and Louisianans?

Don't forget the Floridians. If sea levels rise 1.5 meters, say goodbye to the Everglades.

The plan sounds solid. Though, in all honesty, they might be justified in declaring war on the US and China.

Perhaps they could move onto a massive fleet of ships, with a few carriers (paid for by selling Kiribatian land to idiots) for good measure, and prey on shipping between the US and China.

Maybe the people of Dubai could create new islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands) for these people to live on.

The plan sounds solid. Though, in all honesty, they might be justified in declaring war on the US and China.

Perhaps they could move onto a massive fleet of ships, with a few carriers (paid for by selling Kiribatian land to idiots) for good measure, and prey on shipping between the US and China.

Yeah, I'm sure that'd work.

[/sarcasm]

I like it, but I don't like the last part.

“Hopefully, our people will spread out so that when the time comes they will assist with the integration of [the rest of our] people into their communities … and also make it easier on the host country,” Tong said.

To me, it sounds like he's given up on the identity of the Kiribati[-n,-an, w/e] people. Now, don't get me wrong, they're better of assimilated than slowly drowned. That's undeniable. But I think that instead of integrating them fully into host countries, he should allow them and their descendants to retain Kiribati citizenship, and maintain Kiribati cultural institutions in the host countries so that the ways of that country's people are not lost to corporate mass-culture.

That is, if the host countries are willing to accept that.

I think that the Australian government has made offers that, in the event of sea level rising, Australia will help out.
Who is going to help with the Texans and Louisianans?

I'll help with the Louisianans.

I like it, but I don't like the last part.



To me, it sounds like he's given up on the identity of the Kiribati[-n,-an, w/e] people. Now, don't get me wrong, they're better of assimilated than slowly drowned. That's undeniable. But I think that instead of integrating them fully into host countries, he should allow them and their descendants to retain Kiribati citizenship, and maintain Kiribati cultural institutions in the host countries so that the ways of that country's people are not lost to corporate mass-culture.

That is, if the host countries are willing to accept that.

Survival comes first. Retention of culture is great too, but the most important thing, is that his people survive.

Survival comes first. Retention of culture is great too, but the most important thing, is that his people survive.

I acknowledged that in Line 2.

Maybe the people of Dubai could create new islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands) for these people to live on.

The problem is that these are volcanic islands, IIRC, so you would need trillions of cubic yards of soil to make any reasonable dent in the problem. The issue of how to ship such quantities of soil to an island nation is problem enough, even if they could manage to dredge it off of the ocean floor, but how to keep this soil from eventual erosion is an even tougher one.

I acknowledged that in Line 2.

Wasn't necessarily arguing, just pointing out that it's a matter of priorities. I think he's probably considered the fact that his plan might cost his people their national identity. But in weighing that against their future survival and well-being, I think he made the difficult but at the same time inevitable choice.

The problem is that these are volcanic islands, IIRC, so you would need trillions of cubic yards of soil to make any reasonable dent in the problem. The issue of how to ship such quantities of soil to an island nation is problem enough, even if they could manage to dredge it off of the ocean floor, but how to keep this soil from eventual erosion is an even tougher one.

Dredging it from the ocean floor isn't the best idea. That soil will be full of salt.

Wow, sad how the global warming problems are going to hurt them so bad even though they really aren't responsible.

100k ? I think we get that many Mexicans a month. plenty of room in the US. I say easiest way would be to extend the Compact of Free Association to the islands. This would give them US disaster assistance (as though a domestic area) and the right of any of these people to move to work and permanently live in the US. and whats left of the islands can be used as a military base by the US. Win Win really.

Wasn't necessarily arguing, just pointing out that it's a matter of priorities. I think he's probably considered the fact that his plan might cost his people their national identity. But in weighing that against their future survival and well-being, I think he made the difficult but at the same time inevitable choice.

Very true. He probably has done so.

This highlights what I thought when I first read of Nauru's nearly depleted phosphate reserves and lack of any other means of sustenance. I figured they'd just all go to Austrailia, and then wondered who would govern the island.

What I'm contemplating here is an [at least partly] nonterritorial 'ethnic' government that acts to the diasporic people of the nation in question as a territorial state would: collecting taxes, extending benefits, maintaining institutions amongst the members of the constituent group. It probably wouldn't be workable, as the persons involved would live under the jurisdiction and taxation of territorial governments as well, but it would aid in maintaining an identity as a people.

Who thinks the likes of TAI would prefer that they all drown rather than let his dreaded (non-Caucasian) foreign immigrants enter other countries?

"Euribati? No Thanks!"

And Kamsaki has the right of it. What else can be realistically done? Other than say, shipping how many millions of tons of dirt into the islands as a vertical land reclamation attempt. Kiribati most likely can't afford that, so this is the next best option.

First Tuvalu, now Kiribati. The fact that two South Pacific nations have or are going down like Atlantis ouight to be proof that global climate change is real and serious. If warming the planet and thus melting the polar ice caps raises sea levels, shouldn't the converse be true?

First Tuvalu, now Kiribati. The fact that two South Pacific nations have or are going down like Atlantis ouight to be proof that global climate change is real and serious. If warming the planet and thus melting the polar ice caps raises sea levels, shouldn't the converse be true?

Hang on a second, why is two coral islands sinking proof of global warming? After all, coral islands are on top of volcanoes that have been eroded and submerged over time.

I am yet to see the effects of global warming in my backyard.

Hang on a second, why is two coral islands sinking proof of global warming? After all, coral islands are on top of volcanoes that have been eroded and submerged over time.

I am yet to see the effects of global warming in my backyard.

We could set up a Kiribatian refugee camp in your backyard.

We could set up a Kiribatian refugee camp in your backyard.

Like I said before, I don't mind the people of Kiribati evacuating to New Zealand, so I have no objection to your comment. Like I said, how are two coral islands sinking proof of global warming? It could be global warming, but it could equally be erosion.

"Euribati? No Thanks!"


???


First Tuvalu, now Kiribati. The fact that two South Pacific nations have or are going down like Atlantis ouight to be proof that global climate change is real and serious. If warming the planet and thus melting the polar ice caps raises sea levels, shouldn't the converse be true?

Miracle cures for 200 years of industrialization don't exist. There are existing measures that may mitigate the extent of pollution and excess carbon playing havoc with the biosphere but they won't stop it.

We're beyond that point.

Non Aligned States, since you're back in this thread, I'll save myself the effort of a TG. This is flamebait --
Who thinks the likes of TAI would prefer that they all drown rather than let his dreaded (non-Caucasian) foreign immigrants enter other countries?
-- addressed to someone who's not even taking part in the thread.

Ve-ry dodgy tactic. Not your usual style. Cut it out.

I think that the Australian government has made offers that, in the event of sea level rising, Australia will help out.
Who is going to help with the Texans and Louisianans?

Certainly not Uncle Sam. I thought it was abundantly clear he had little to no interest in helping the states he was created to help.

Very true. He probably has done so.

This highlights what I thought when I first read of Nauru's nearly depleted phosphate reserves and lack of any other means of sustenance. I figured they'd just all go to Austrailia, and then wondered who would govern the island.

What I'm contemplating here is an [at least partly] nonterritorial 'ethnic' government that acts to the diasporic people of the nation in question as a territorial state would: collecting taxes, extending benefits, maintaining institutions amongst the members of the constituent group. It probably wouldn't be workable, as the persons involved would live under the jurisdiction and taxation of territorial governments as well, but it would aid in maintaining an identity as a people.

Well, maintaining a cultural identity as a people despite a wide dispersion across many different nations has been done before. The fact that the Jewish people had a common religion certainly helped keep some of their cultural identity, however. Which isn't to say that they didn't in many cases absorb many customs of their adopted lands anyway, but even today, as evidenced by the frequent arguments "Is 'Jewish' ethnic or religious," some cultural bond, albeit much changed, has remained despite members of the original nation being scattered across the globe.

Whether this would apply to the people of Kiribati I don't know. And while no doubt hoping that publicizing this tragic situation will spur some action on the climate change front, I think that the proposal is very serious, because realistically what else is there to do? While it's a heartbreaking choice to make, one can't simply do nothing.

100k ? I think we get that many Mexicans a month. plenty of room in the US. I say easiest way would be to extend the Compact of Free Association to the islands. This would give them US disaster assistance (as though a domestic area) and the right of any of these people to move to work and permanently live in the US. and whats left of the islands can be used as a military base by the US. Win Win really.
Hahaha, yeah right.
And I don't know if you have seen a military base before, but they take up alot of room and probably have single buildings the size of some of these islands.

???

That was a joke you know right? Since TAI and Friends have a cute slogan for opposing Arab Muslim immigration ("Eurabia? No Thanks!!") I just came up with one they'd use to oppose Kiribati immigration.

Hahaha, yeah right.
And I don't know if you have seen a military base before, but they take up alot of room and probably have single buildings the size of some of these islands.

I don't know if you realize this but we are already on island countries such as Palau which are about half the size of Kiribati. Of PS I was in the military and spent 6 months on an island base that was maybe 50 meters in total area.

I don't know if you realize this but we are already on island countries such as Palau which are about half the size of Kiribati. Of PS I was in the military and spent 6 months on an island base that was maybe 50 meters in total area.

I have no military experience at all, but isn't Diego Garcia about the size of an iPod? And that's a pretty significant naval/air support station.

"Hang on a second, why is two coral islands sinking proof of global warming? After all, coral islands are on top of volcanoes that have been eroded and submerged over time.

I am yet to see the effects of global warming in my backyard."

Bite your tongue Alexandrian! I'd rather see the mud at Rotorua than the mud-covered buildings of Aukland and Wellington!
No-man is an island! (Mind you, I don't know where No-man is....perhaps it's been submerged already).