NationStates Jolt Archive

On the train, going home one day, my mum met a Pacific Islander boy also travelling home to the same destination (our suburb has a remarkably multicultural mix - we've got a bit of everything).

Anyway, this young boy was talking to my mother, and he was telling her rather a strange story. He told her that his sister had recently been raped by a group of Africans and that this was a common problem between the 2 communities. He told her that rather than go to the authorities, he and his family took his sister out to various places in order to locate these men so that revenge could be taken.

Regardless of whether he was in fact, pulling my mother's leg, such a story brings up an interesting point:

What can be done to better integrate communities and develop better community-authority relationships? We hear a lot about the supposed inability of Muslims to integrate and that of various other cultures, but what are we actually doing to assist these communities to integrate into our legislative and social systems? How do we develop their trust and understanding so that they can integrate more easily? I think that more education is the key to developing these relationships. Developing the community's understanding of how the legal process works, what services are available to them, and

I have had experiences listening to young immigrants talk about Australian culture. The reason that is most often given for refusal to integrate is the question, "What culture? Australians care about getting drunk, watching Rugby League, and dirty jokes." which implies to me that we don't do a great job of representing ourselves and making our cultural history and values easily accessible. Therefore, the issue seems to be opening up to these new cultures and groups to enable them to engage in a dialogue about what it means to be Australian.

Um... nothing? The bulk of immigrants fully intragrate into their new culture by the 3rd generation. The first generation usually remains outsiders, the second has the fun of straddling both cultures at the same time, but the third has usually fully intragrated to the point where it becomes difficult for them to communicate or relate to their grandparents.

Um... nothing? The bulk of immigrants fully intragrate into their new culture by the 3rd generation. The first generation usually remains outsiders, the second has the fun of straddling both cultures at the same time, but the third has usually fully intragrated to the point where it becomes difficult for them to communicate or relate to their grandparents.

What sucks is that, when the 1st generation families have racial clashes, racial tensions are passed down, and it then becomes nigh impossible to rid the problem, because then the issue begins with teachings from parents, which, depending on your culture, is more sacred than anything.

What sucks is that, when the 1st generation families have racial clashes, racial tensions are passed down, and it then becomes nigh impossible to rid the problem, because then the issue begins with teachings from parents, which, depending on your culture, is more sacred than anything.
Depends on the culture in question and how it is viewed by the majority culture.

If you look at the history of, say, the Irish, when they arrived in the large immigration waves they were NOT liked. A lot of the same stereotypes that have been used for hispanics are pretty much resurected ones from back in the day, three generations in though... how many Americans with Irish heratage actually know anything about it further than drinking green beer on St. Patrick's Day and wearing something that says, "Kiss me, I'm Irish"?

Depends on the culture in question and how it is viewed by the majority culture.

If you look at the history of, say, the Irish, when they arrived in the large immigration waves they were NOT liked. A lot of the same stereotypes that have been used for hispanics are pretty much resurected ones from back in the day, three generations in though... how many Americans with Irish heratage actually know anything about it further than drinking green beer on St. Patrick's Day and wearing something that says, "Kiss me, I'm Irish"?

Well, I mean, I live near Los Angeles, and you hear a lot of Black/Hispanic violence, especially in schools, where you have a large gang of Hispanics/Latinos fight a large gang of African-Americans/Blacks, and these issues come from a long line of racial tensions between the two.

What makes this worse is that, generally, the paternal/maternal figureheads are *the* authority, bar none, in these cultures, which then passes on and on and on...

Um... nothing? The bulk of immigrants fully intragrate into their new culture by the 3rd generation. The first generation usually remains outsiders, the second has the fun of straddling both cultures at the same time, but the third has usually fully intragrated to the point where it becomes difficult for them to communicate or relate to their grandparents.

That's all well and good, but many of the problems that are being experienced are coming from the first generation. And I think this needs to be addressed. Furthermore, some communities are not integrating. If communities are going to be interacting in the way described in my post, this needs to be addressed, so that we don't have problems with gangs developing (not saying that it is due to the fact that they are migrants, more due to the lack of integration and understanding of authority - the same is seen with the 'Bra Boys in Maroubra).

It is not, to me, a reasonable solution to say, "Let's just wait 30 years for the 3rd generation to integrate." We need to integrate them now. What is happening, however, is that our society is putting up barriers to them integrating, through making our culture inaccessible, not providing enough education about support services etc.

Um... nothing? The bulk of immigrants fully intragrate into their new culture by the 3rd generation. The first generation usually remains outsiders, the second has the fun of straddling both cultures at the same time, but the third has usually fully intragrated to the point where it becomes difficult for them to communicate or relate to their grandparents.

That is true it takes about a generation at least in Australia for them to become apart of the Australian culture, and then they are the ones against any new arrivals also.

Christmahanikwanzikah talked about cultural clashes, I think this is true for some races, one only has to look at the clashes between Serbians and Croatians in Melbourne and elsewhere despite the fact that these people are 2nd, 3rd generation

It is not, to me, a reasonable solution to say, "Let's just wait 30 years for the 3rd generation to integrate." We need to integrate them now. What is happening, however, is that our society is putting up barriers to them integrating, through making our culture inaccessible, not providing enough education about support services etc.

What do you mean not providing support? What support do you think is lacking?

Well, I mean, I live near Los Angeles, and you hear a lot of Black/Hispanic violence, especially in schools, where you have a large gang of Hispanics/Latinos fight a large gang of African-Americans/Blacks, and these issues come from a long line of racial tensions between the two.

What makes this worse is that, generally, the paternal/maternal figureheads are *the* authority, bar none, in these cultures, which then passes on and on and on...
Ok, but look at it along generational lines, how many of the Latinos in that mess are third generation? I'd be willing to bet that a great deal of them are 1st or second. Again, by the third generation, USUALLY, most aspects of the old culture have dropped off or have been reduced. Listen to the elder generation of immigrants and you'll hear all about how the newest generation is more American than Hispanic and so on and so forth. Of course, I would say that the problem of the violence is less racial tensions and more economic, given that immigrants tend to locate in ghettos where Blacks have been pushed and they compete for a lot of the same jobs.

That's all well and good, but many of the problems that are being experienced are coming from the first generation. And I think this needs to be addressed. Furthermore, some communities are not integrating. If communities are going to be interacting in the way described in my post, this needs to be addressed, so that we don't have problems with gangs developing (not saying that it is due to the fact that they are migrants, more due to the lack of integration and understanding of authority - the same is seen with the 'Bra Boys in Maroubra).

It is not, to me, a reasonable solution to say, "Let's just wait 30 years for the 3rd generation to integrate." We need to integrate them now. What is happening, however, is that our society is putting up barriers to them integrating, through making our culture inaccessible, not providing enough education about support services etc.
And just how do you plan to MAKE someone integrate? I'm an immigrant myself and yes, I've adopted a number of the customs of my new home, but if someone told me that I needed to abandon being American and try to become purely Japanese, I wouldn't be a happy camper at all.

And just how do you plan to MAKE someone integrate? I'm an immigrant myself and yes, I've adopted a number of the customs of my new home, but if someone told me that I needed to abandon being American and try to become purely Japanese, I wouldn't be a happy camper at all.

I'm not suggesting that they shed their old culture in preference for their new one. I am merely suggesting that some instances where immigrants are accused of not integrating (such as the situation in the OP) can be resolved by further education about their new home. I firmly support the right of any immigrant to live according to their culture and think it wonderful that so many cultures make active efforts to pass their culture and language onto younger generations (Some of my friends attended Polish school on Saturdays, the Islander population teaches it's traditional dances in the schools in my local area and has begun translating many of the schoolbooks into Samoan and Maori, the African population has created a market where all the cultures and community can buy and sell produce and other products, the list goes on...). But one of the major reasons for gang development is poor, badly integrated young people (regardless of their culture, including Australians) who have a chip on their shoulder. By developing better relationships with all communities (perhaps through liaison officers or active recruitment of people from a wide range of cultures to help develop trust relationships with these communities in law enforcement, local government etc.) I think that communities can help prevent situations arising. I wanted other thoughts.

What do you mean not providing support? What support do you think is lacking?

Well I suggest we ask the communities themselves what they think is lacking. And I said education about support available.

Ok, but look at it along generational lines, how many of the Latinos in that mess are third generation? I'd be willing to bet that a great deal of them are 1st or second. Again, by the third generation, USUALLY, most aspects of the old culture have dropped off or have been reduced. Listen to the elder generation of immigrants and you'll hear all about how the newest generation is more American than Hispanic and so on and so forth. Of course, I would say that the problem of the violence is less racial tensions and more economic, given that immigrants tend to locate in ghettos where Blacks have been pushed and they compete for a lot of the same jobs.


Honestly, I'm unsure of how many, exactly, of them are further entrenched than 1st or 2nd generation, but it's not like Hispanics began migrating to Los Angeles 30 years ago. I'm sure that there are 4th, 5th, and deeper generation Hispanic Americans living in Los Angeles and participating in the same violence.

Again, the issue isn't the parents, but what the parents teach the children. A lot of the racial issues between the two have been caused by both labour and neighborhood competition due to years and years of segregation from society. It's hard not to blame the White American that forced these two to come into contact, but the two groups aren't exactly blameless themselves.

Also, it seems to be a bit of a generalization to say that all cultures become part of the same greyish-muddled culture of America, because you're basically taking the parts and summing them into a whole and putting them together. You can't go to San Francisco and not see Chinatown. There are people there that are nth generation Pacific Islander/Chinese that haven't given up their culture and assimilated. Same goes for the Orthodox Jews in New York and so on and so forth.

I understand your point, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that there aren't cliques of differing cultures in America.

EDIT: I realize a little too late that it's probably hard for some to consider this, because there's quite a few more foreigners (to me, of course) on this board than there is on another I frequent. A little Wiki-ing may just give you a little taste of different clique-type cultures that have evolved in America, but if you're unsure of what I speak of, I unfortunately know little recourse for this.

Well I suggest we ask the communities themselves what they think is lacking. And I said education about support available.

Oh education about support I first read it as education and support. I don't think many of these communities are lacking many just refuse to integrate with mainstream Australia, a walk through some of the Sydney suburbs will tell you that, you see some the old people who came over despite being here for 40 years refuse to learn English yet their children and grandchildren can speak it fluently and are more ocker than you and I. It all very well to say we should help them intergrate but we cannot help those that don't want to help themselves.

I have had experiences listening to young immigrants talk about Australian culture. The reason that is most often given for refusal to integrate is the question, "What culture? Australians care about getting drunk, watching Rugby League, and dirty jokes."

:eek: OMG! I'm Australian and never knew it! :eek:

I never thought I would see the words 'Australian' and 'culture' in such close proximity to each other.

Um... nothing? The bulk of immigrants fully intragrate into their new culture by the 3rd generation. The first generation usually remains outsiders, the second has the fun of straddling both cultures at the same time, but the third has usually fully intragrated to the point where it becomes difficult for them to communicate or relate to their grandparents.

This.

Um... nothing? The bulk of immigrants fully intragrate into their new culture by the 3rd generation. The first generation usually remains outsiders, the second has the fun of straddling both cultures at the same time, but the third has usually fully intragrated to the point where it becomes difficult for them to communicate or relate to their grandparents.That's the theory. Unfortunately, the reality is that in, lets say, Germany, 2nd & 3rd generation immigrants tend to be less well integrated. The parents understand that they're, in effect, permanent guests, and get along. The children, not properly assimilated into the local culture (And how could they be? There's literally thousands of years of history and the bonds they form missing) remember where they come from (Whether they've seen the place or not is secondary), and seeking a bond through history to relate to (Like everyone else), they (Unsurprisingly) find it with their distant ancestors.

Cue parallel societies, ludicrous adherence to a (Rather warped) tradition etc.

I have had experiences listening to young immigrants talk about Australian culture. The reason that is most often given for refusal to integrate is the question, "What culture? Australians care about getting drunk, watching Rugby League, and dirty jokes." which implies to me that we don't do a great job of representing ourselves and making our cultural history and values easily accessible. Therefore, the issue seems to be opening up to these new cultures and groups to enable them to engage in a dialogue about what it means to be Australian.
1) They're right, Rugby League is rubbish compared to Union.

2) Aye, what exactly does it mean to be Australian if not getting pissed eating pies at the Rugby? Other than insulting The Pom and suchlike, of course :p