NationStates Jolt Archive


Civil list funding deadlock.

Abdju
25-09-2008, 23:02
From The Independent (LINK (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/rejected-queens-plea-for-more-cash-941452.html))


The Queen and the Government are locked in a secret dispute over royal demands for increased public funding to meet the growing expense of the monarchy.


Palace aides have told ministers they need extra money to offset the cost of maintaining the Royal Estate of palaces and pay for increased fuel, food and staffing costs. But the Government is refusing to increase the £15m it pays for the upkeep of the Queen's occupied palaces and is fending off demands for a large rise in the £7.9m Civil List which pays for the monarch's public functions. Ministers argue that, in the present economic climate, Whitehall budgets are already overstretched. Royal aides counter that Parliament has a constitutional duty to ensure the Queen is financially secure.

An investigation into the royal accounts by The Independent, with the accountants Baker Tilly, has revealed that – by 2011 – the Queen will not be able to balance her books as the escalating cost of maintaining the Royal Household will be more than double the £7.9m allocated by Parliament. This year's palace accounts already show Civil List expenditure will reach £14.4m – £6.5m more than the Government has agreed to pay the Queen each year.

The dispute can only be settled if either the Government agrees to give the Queen more money or the Royal Family scales back its public spending. All that the Treasury will say on the subject is that an announcement on the Civil List will be made "in due course".

Palace aides, who are now pessimistic about a state bailout, claim the royal finances have been ravaged by inflation. Without more funds, Buckingham Palace insists, the Queen will no longer be able to pay for the upkeep of her palaces, which her aides claim require £32m of refurbishment and maintenance in the next 10 years.

A Palace source said: "We have spent a lot of time convincing the Department for Culture Media and Sport of the merits of our case but I am not convinced they are listening very carefully to our arguments. It is a major disappointment." The Palace believes that competing interest from the Olympics budget has helped to close ministers' minds to releasing more cash.

There is strong public and parliamentary pressure to rein in the growing cost of the Royal Family, which stood at £40m overall last year and includes maintaining the Royal Household, the upkeep of the palaces and the Royal Family's travel bill. That is £12m more than in 2002, when the Palace first published detailed accounts of its finances. Some MPs suspect that members of the Royal Family, principally the Prince of Wales and the Duke of York, have been profligate with taxpayers' money and want the royal accounts publicly audited in the same way as government departments.

Paul Flynn MP, a Labour member of Parliament's Public Administration Committee, called for a "root-and- branch investigation" of all property and land owned by the Royal Family.

Included in the list of palace demands is a more generous tax treatment, specifically a call for a VAT exemption on the payment of services rendered to the Queen. "Government departments get VAT exemptions on services, why shouldn't we?," said an aide.

Negotiations are about to enter a critical phase as the Government prepares to review the Civil List. The Civil List was last increased to £7.9m in 1990 under a private agreement with John Major's government in what was recognised, at the time, as a very generous settlement.

Under the Blair government it was reviewed again in 2000, but ministers balked at giving more taxpayers' cash to the Royal Family even though it was clear inflation had considerably reduced the real value of the Civil List. It is due for renewal before 2010.

According to palace accounts, the Queen had built up a reserve of £35m in 2000. But as palace officials made further "draw-downs" to meet the increasing cost of living and the impact of inflation, the reserve was reduced to £26m last year. It is estimated to fall below £20m this year and will be wiped out completely before 2011.

While palace maintenance represents the biggest call on public expenditure, the Queen is also responsible for a growing salary and pensions bill that has increased to £9.1m, up £2m in four years. Her finances have also been hit by rising fuel costs and the crash in the stock market, where some of the Civil List reserve has been invested.

The harsh economic realities were recently brought home to the Queen when she was forced to sell land at the Royal Garden Hotel, Kensington, to raise £2.5m to pay for emergency repairs and refurbishments, including a staff accommodation block in the Royal Mews area of Buckingham Palace.

Mark Harwood, head of UK risk and corporate governance with Baker Tilly, concluded: "Future funding will need to be at a higher level and will probably need to increase year on year, rather than the policy under John Major of fixing a higher List, allowing surpluses in earlier years to be invested to cover deficits in later years."

This is an old parliamentary game, where the Commons uses it's legislative muscle to undermine the monarch. The civil list is meant to be used to ensure financial security for certain members of the royal family and the most important estates. In the past, however, this has not been honoured, most spectacularly when the Commons refused to contribute any funds for repair work following the 1992 fire at Windsor, and actually made matters worse by taking the opportunity of the debate to restrict the civil list considerably. The current situation government standoff is basically the Commons flexing it's muscles, and attempting to expand it's power. Once the money the royal family current has in reserve is exhausted, their "bargaining position" will be much weakened. Heel dragging only benefits one faction, and it is most definitely not the country itself.

The monetary sums involved are actually insignificant. Despite Whitehall's protestations of "overstretched" budgets, the civil list and palace maintenance costs as part of the national budget are so small as to be essentially nothing more than a rounding error. The whole argument is nothing more than a stick and a weapon for PM to attack one of the institutions that stands between him and the far greater powers of a US presidential style role.

Attacks by Commons on the Lords and the monarch are nothing new. Removing hereditary peers from the Lords was far less about class warfare (of the sense that was being debated anyway) and far more about removing a power layer that the Commons could not exercise control or influence over. This is little different.

What do the wise, cultured, rational, considered and calm minds of NSG make of this?
The Infinite Dunes
25-09-2008, 23:09
I reckon the monarchy should unionise and go on strike. The commons will come back begging with their cap in hand when there's no state visits and no Christmas address!
Mirkana
25-09-2008, 23:51
The Queen should go to Parliament in person and make an epic speech that gives good reasons why they should give the Royal Family the funds they need, and makes those who wanted to cut funding look like idiots.

We all know she's capable of doing so.
Ad Nihilo
25-09-2008, 23:55
The Queen should go to Parliament in person and make an epic speech that gives good reasons why they should give the Royal Family the funds they need, and makes those who wanted to cut funding look like idiots.

We all know she's capable of doing so.

The monarch cannot by common law enter Parliament, since the Civil War (IIRC).

As for this, queenie has more than enough money to run her own house, so I don't really understand what this is about really. And why any of her upkeep is actually in the budget.
Sirmomo1
26-09-2008, 00:11
Raise it? Try scrapping it.
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 00:17
The Queen should go to Parliament in person and make an epic speech that gives good reasons why they should give the Royal Family the funds they need, and makes those who wanted to cut funding look like idiots.

We all know she's capable of doing so.

Sounds to me like someone was impressed by "The Libertine".
Mirkana
26-09-2008, 00:19
Sounds to me like someone was impressed by "The Libertine".

Never even heard of it.
Wilgrove
26-09-2008, 00:24
Walmart is hiring....
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 00:34
Never even heard of it.

*sadface*

Shame, pretty good movie, with a rather excellent scene in which Johnny Depp does almost exactly what you describe. Only... different. Well, similar.
Vault 10
26-09-2008, 00:37
I reckon the monarchy should unionise and go on strike. The commons will come back begging with their cap in hand when there's no state visits and no Christmas address!
I support this.

They should join, or start if there isn't one, a labor union of monarchs, and use collective bargaining to argue for more salary and benefits.
Ashmoria
26-09-2008, 00:41
maybe she can resume selling opium to the chinese now that they have a free-er society.
Lunatic Goofballs
26-09-2008, 00:44
Walmart is hiring....

Yay! :D
New Limacon
26-09-2008, 00:47
Walmart is hiring....

It's true, the Queen probably has more hand-waving experience than anyone alive today. She'd make an excellent greeter.
Vault 10
26-09-2008, 00:48
Raise it? Try scrapping it.
The Queen and the Monarchy provide a much greater cultural service to her country than P.Hillton or other similar celebrities.
New Limacon
26-09-2008, 00:48
The Queen and the Monarchy provide a much greater cultural service to her country than P.Hillton or other similar celebrities.

That's probably why the federal government doesn't give Hilton an allowance.
Rejistania
26-09-2008, 00:51
Walmart is hiring....
\end{thread}
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
26-09-2008, 00:53
Where is the Committee for Public Safety when you need it?
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 00:53
\end{thread}

It might be.... if the Queen lived in the US.

('ASDA are hiring' might have worked better).
New Limacon
26-09-2008, 00:58
It might be.... if the Queen lived in the US.

('ASDA are hiring' might have worked better).

But I don't get the ASDA joke. How can it work better if I don't get it?
H N Fiddlebottoms VIII
26-09-2008, 00:59
It might be.... if the Queen lived in the US.

('ASDA are hiring' might have worked better).
ASDA has been part of Wal-Mart for almost a decade. So there:p
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 01:00
But I don't get the ASDA joke. How can it work better if I don't get it?

I realise it comes as a shock to many, but the world is actually a large ball shape, not a floating rock the same shape and size as the US.
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 01:03
ASDA has been part of Wal-Mart for almost a decade. So there:p

Yeah, I know. Hence why I cited ASDA, rather than say.. Tesco (which would probably be the more direct parallel to Wal-Mart, in terms of visibility and dominance).
New Limacon
26-09-2008, 01:07
I realise it comes as a shock to many, but the world is actually a large ball shape, not a floating rock the same shape and size as the US.

Of course not, the US is much bigger.
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 01:24
Of course not, the US is much bigger.

Obviously. Hence, 'World Wrestling' and 'The World Series'.
New Limacon
26-09-2008, 01:28
Obviously. Hence, 'World Wrestling' and 'The World Series'.

The World Series is my favorite. It's the National League versus the American League. Since it includes both America and the nation, it is obviously representing the entire world.
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 01:29
The World Series is my favorite. It's the National League versus the American League. Since it includes both America and the nation, it is obviously representing the entire world.

Ah! I finally understand the logic! Now I get it, I withdraw my objection.

What a mad, impetuous, incredibly handsome, fool I've been.
Lunatic Goofballs
26-09-2008, 01:38
The World Series is my favorite. It's the National League versus the American League. Since it includes both America and the nation, it is obviously representing the entire world.

Oh, it does. Every single Major League Baseball team franchise in the world gets a chance to be in the World Series. *nod*
greed and death
26-09-2008, 03:08
The US must invade make the UK a state in order to properly take care of the queen. provided our banks don't cease and our money becomes worthless.
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 03:12
The US must invade make the UK a state in order to properly take care of the queen. provided our banks don't cease and our money becomes worthless.

With the awe-inspiring movement of dollar values, it might well be more beneficial to try to add the US to the Civil List....
greed and death
26-09-2008, 03:22
With the awe-inspiring movement of dollar values, it might well be more beneficial to try to add the US to the Civil List....

Hmmmmm..... well if we repeal the declaration of independence our dollars would convert to pounds wouldn't they. also the conflict would prevent NATO from becoming involved since it would then be classed a civil war.

After we win the civil war Declare former UK government illegitimate and the debt they rung up void. then also declare US government illegitimate and their debt void as well.

I think we can make this mutually beneficial.
Abdju
26-09-2008, 07:32
The Queen and the Monarchy provide a much greater cultural service to her country than P.Hillton or other similar celebrities.

Culturally, certainly. But I think there is a polticial significance to all this as well.
DrunkenDove
26-09-2008, 14:00
The queen could rent out one of her palaces. That'd easily cover the debt.

I don't think you've got the motives of the commons quite down though. Why should they try and undermine the monarchy? The queen doesn't do anything on a regular basis that reduces their power. It's a strange target to swing for.
Grave_n_idle
26-09-2008, 17:42
Hmmmmm..... well if we repeal the declaration of independence our dollars would convert to pounds wouldn't they. also the conflict would prevent NATO from becoming involved since it would then be classed a civil war.

After we win the civil war Declare former UK government illegitimate and the debt they rung up void. then also declare US government illegitimate and their debt void as well.

I think we can make this mutually beneficial.

Awesome. I'd support it. :D
greed and death
27-09-2008, 02:48
Awesome. I'd support it. :D

We will call the land the greater UK. and later offer the deal to other former parts of the UK. though it would feel weird technically losing to Canada and Australia well not so much the Aussies they are some pretty tough buggers.
Grave_n_idle
27-09-2008, 05:43
We will call the land the greater UK. and later offer the deal to other former parts of the UK. though it would feel weird technically losing to Canada and Australia well not so much the Aussies they are some pretty tough buggers.

Put the fear of God into the slightly re-emergent Russia, and the oncoming China though... it'd be like "Parties over, you kids. Daddy's back home, and y'all are gonna get spanked".
greed and death
27-09-2008, 06:02
Put the fear of God into the slightly re-emergent Russia, and the oncoming China though... it'd be like "Parties over, you kids. Daddy's back home, and y'all are gonna get spanked".

I just wonder how the EU would react since technically the US just got added to the EU with out a vote by the EU.
Grave_n_idle
27-09-2008, 06:11
I just wonder how the EU would react since technically the US just got added to the EU with out a vote by the EU.

If it was phrased as part of the US 'becoming part of the UK', I'm not sure what they would say... what they could say. Some comment about simply returning to previous borders... no contesting over territory... I don't know what the EU could really object to. It'd almost be worth doing it JUST for that. :)
greed and death
27-09-2008, 06:16
If it was phrased as part of the US 'becoming part of the UK', I'm not sure what they would say... what they could say. Some comment about simply returning to previous borders... no contesting over territory... I don't know what the EU could really object to. It'd almost be worth doing it JUST for that. :)

dump our banking issues on the EU central bank and say have a nice time fixing that woohoo.
so advantages are
1. piss off continentals
2. dump our debt.
3. force the EU to share fixing our banking problems


the negative.
have to learn the queens English.
Well I can deal with that.
Abdju
27-09-2008, 10:37
The queen could rent out one of her palaces. That'd easily cover the debt.

I don't think you've got the motives of the commons quite down though. Why should they try and undermine the monarchy? The queen doesn't do anything on a regular basis that reduces their power. It's a strange target to swing for.

Well, I don't think it's so much the power the monarch has that is the problem, but rather the checks and theoretical limits it imposes upon the PM's power (also their gripe with hereditary Lords). Labour MPs have talked about abolishing the Royal Prerogative because, in theory, the monarch is not obliged to obey the PM. The same is also (again, in theory) true when it comes to granting Royal Assent. The way Labour has destroyed the Lords, and the way various Pm's of all parties have tried to take more control over hate Royal Prerogative, pretty much betrays their true thoughts on the matter as much as their attitude towards the Civil List.

Centuries of practice and precedent have left the PM with a lot of power, but it is not guaranteed or concrete, and it is still below that of many presidents. Our politicians are basically greedy, and want a concrete power base, and I can't help but picture a long, sorry line of our PM's in No. 10 having wet dreams of a "sofa-style" veto over the Commons and Lords alike.
Calarca
27-09-2008, 10:44
I understand that the Crown also has the rarely used power of simply announcing "Alright boys, party is over, Parliment is dismissed NOW!" in which case the leader of the opposition becomes the PM, but can do nothing and has no authority to do more than organize a new general election as soon as ballots can be printed.

I can't remember that authority every being invoked through... but so long as it exists, the PM and his party are the queens SERVANTS, and that must rankle amongst political egos :P
Newer Burmecia
27-09-2008, 11:10
I understand that the Crown also has the rarely used power of simply announcing "Alright boys, party is over, Parliment is dismissed NOW!" in which case the leader of the opposition becomes the PM, but can do nothing and has no authority to do more than organize a new general election as soon as ballots can be printed.

I can't remember that authority every being invoked through... but so long as it exists, the PM and his party are the queens SERVANTS, and that must rankle amongst political egos :P
Off the top of my head, that perogative was used in the '70s in Australia after the opposition controlled Senate failed to pass their federal budget (loss of supply) and the PM failed to resign. I can't think of a British example - Lloyd George, for example, passed the 1909 budget after calling a general election.

Well, I don't think it's so much the power the monarch has that is the problem, but rather the checks and theoretical limits it imposes upon the PM's power (also their gripe with hereditary Lords). Labour MPs have talked about abolishing the Royal Prerogative because, in theory, the monarch is not obliged to obey the PM. The same is also (again, in theory) true when it comes to granting Royal Assent. The way Labour has destroyed the Lords, and the way various Pm's of all parties have tried to take more control over hate Royal Prerogative, pretty much betrays their true thoughts on the matter as much as their attitude towards the Civil List.
I hear a lot of constitutional traditionalists say that having a monarch with some kind of 'reserve' power to use at his/her own discretion (or even a hereditary Lords with equal legislative power as the commons) offers a system of checks and balances/protection from XYZ/enlightened government. As far as I'm concerned, if these powers aren't used, it's not a check and balance at all, and if they are used, it's a recipe for eternal constituonal crisis ending only with the abolition of a politicised monarchy.

I'd quite happily strip the Queen of the royal perogatives and vest them in Parliament. Better there than a the de facto discretion of the PM.

Centuries of practice and precedent have left the PM with a lot of power, but it is not guaranteed or concrete, and it is still below that of many presidents. Our politicians are basically greedy, and want a concrete power base, and I can't help but picture a long, sorry line of our PM's in No. 10 having wet dreams of a "sofa-style" veto over the Commons and Lords alike.
They already have a veto, in theory. If the PM advised the Queen to withold assent to a bill, she would be constitutionally obliged to do so. Of course, this doesn't happen, because we tend to have majority governments with which the PM can, through the whips, ensure that only party policy clears the third reading in the Commons. It's a much more subtle and thorough system of controlling the legislature than a veto.

Add to that the power to request (and always get) the ratification of treaties, appointment of judges and bishops, declarations of war and dissolution of Parliament, without 'the advice and consent of the Senate' as it were, leaves us with a very powerful PM indeed.