NationStates Jolt Archive

Jailhouse jihad

http://kerfuffles.blogsome.com/images/EiffelTower.jpg
Fears that terrorism is breeding in French prisons


HOME to Europe’s biggest Muslim population and a robust counter-terrorism system, France has long kept a keen watch on Islamic radicalism. In recent years it has been spared big bombings of the kind seen in London and Madrid. But France is no stranger to attack by jihadists, and officials fear it is just a matter of time before they strike again.

The authorities are particularly worried about recruitment to militant Islam in France’s overcrowded prisons. “French prisons are a preferred recruiting ground for radical Islamists,” Michèle Alliot-Marie, the interior minister, told Le Figaro newspaper. She and her EU counterparts have been working on a joint handbook on how to counter the phenomenon, which touches many European countries, notably Britain. At the end of September, Ms Alliot-Marie will host an EU seminar, in the heavily Muslim Paris banlieue of Saint-Denis, to discuss what to do.

Fiercely secular, France does not collect official statistics based on religion. But Farhad Khosrokhavar, a French specialist on the subject, estimates that **Muslims make up well over half France’s prison population—far higher than their 8% or so share of the total population. ** Among these there are currently some 1,100 people behind bars in France for terrorist-related activities, according to Alain Bauer, a criminologist. Ms Alliot-Marie said that another 55 have been detained this year.
Proselytising among inmates is common. Security officials are worried that many radicals jailed around the time of the 1998 football World Cup, hosted by France, are starting to be released. “Radicalised Islamists become more influential in prison,” says Mr Khosrokhavar. He reckons there are a few hundred Islamists actively recruiting behind bars in France.

It is hard to know how to counter this. Concentrating jihadists in one or two penitentiaries, as many countries do, may help them plot attacks from prison. Yet dispersing them, or regularly moving them between high-security prisons in order to disrupt networks, may spread radical ideology and increase recruitment.

Less crowded cells might help. France, whose jail population has grown by 30% since 2001, is building three new prisons to this end. Another idea is to provide more Muslim chaplains to offer a moderate spiritual outlet for Muslim inmates.

Azzedine Gaci, head of the Regional Council of the Muslim Faith in Lyon, makes such visits to the prison in Villefranche-sur-Saône, where he reckons 70% of its 700-odd inmates are Muslim. “They need a different interlocutor,” he says. In the absence of competent chaplains, extremists fill the vacuum. France currently has 1,100 chaplains accredited to visit its 63,000 inmates across 195 prisons—yet only 117 of them are Muslim.
http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12273877

Two things.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?

K great.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.

Meh. No one seems to care as much when it's just us black people in American prisons. They're stealing our thunder, really.

Meh. No one seems to care as much when it's just us black people in American prisons. They're stealing our thunder, really.
Actually, many people do find the percentage of Black Americans in Jail appalling, but are shouted at as "bigot!" when they point out the fact that Blacks are indeed grossly overrepresented in American jails.

Meh. No one seems to care as much when it's just us black people in American prisons. They're stealing our thunder, really.

What if they are black muslims? Seems like a good compromise to me.

K great.
That's not a reply to a question.....:rolleyes:

Actually, many people do find the percentage of Black Americans in Jail appalling, but are shouted at as "bigot!" when they point out the fact that Blacks are indeed grossly overrepresented in American jails.

Eh, it's usually got something to do with what they believe to be the cause. :D

Eh, it's usually got something to do with what they believe to be the cause. :D
Ghetto culture which is quite predominant in Black America?

Ghetto culture which is quite predominant in Black America?

All my teachers tell me answers like that are incomplete. :tongue: What is Ghetto culture?

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population.
No, it doesn't.

"Farhad Khosrokhavar, a French specialist on the subject, estimates..."

The article does not show anything more than that estimate.

Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.
*Yawn*

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?
Education, employment, integration, less ghettoization...

The last one seems to be quite important, and is an area where France has made serious mistakes in the past.

All of the above, most likely.

Huh. The poll options are surprisingly mild. But I guess it's not about that...

There's plenty of Muslims in prison under lock and key..? Can't understand why YOU are complaining.

All my teachers tell me answers like that are incomplete. :tongue: What is Ghetto culture?

"Taking part in illegal drugs, teenage pregnancy, Black Entertainment Television, high school dropouts, anti-intellectualism, gangsta rap, vulgarity, thievery, offensive clothing, vanity, parental alienation, single parenting and failing to live up to the ideals of Frederick Douglas, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the African American ancestors that preceded Generation X."

I like how fiercely secular France names its suburbs after Catholic saints.

Then stuffs those suburbs with religious minorities.

What would be even more ironic is if the jails are named after Christian symbols as well.

"Taking part in illegal drugs, teenage pregnancy, Black Entertainment Television, high school dropouts, anti-intellectualism, gangsta rap, vulgarity, thievery, offensive clothing, vanity, parental alienation, single parenting and failing to live up to the ideals of Frederick Douglas, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the African American ancestors that preceded Generation X."

yeah yeah, sure sure, but how is that not just a random collection of behaviors? Most of those aren't illegal, after all.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population.
No, no it doesn't. It publishes a statement saying that by someone with no statistical evidence to back up their claims.
Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.
The problem with France is not with multiculturalism, it's with oversecularisation. If they let people get their religious passion out more in their daily lives, maybe young Muslims would have less zeal all bottled up and shit.

It is a problem, though, aye. Although I can't help but think that possibly this is also an issue with the French police perhaps being more prone to go after beurs and all that.
2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?
Make French society less secular. Also bring in moderate Muslim chaplains into French prisons, maybe.

yeah yeah, sure sure, but how is that not just a random collection of behaviors? Most of those aren't illegal, after all.

It's a good description of life in any underprivileged community. Even white, rural ones. Of course, inner city blacks have better music and TV...

He's also quoting the Wikipedia article on Bill Cosby.

Education, employment, integration, less ghettoization...

The last one seems to be quite important, and is an area where France has made serious mistakes in the past.

To be fair, preventing ghettoization of a minority is not easy.

Everyone wants to live in areas where the people around them are "like them". Predominantly <<Insert Minority Here>> areas are inevitable. The trick is to get non-minority residents NOT to move out, so that there is a little interleavening of cultures, and neither minority nor majority people develop a siege mentality.

Huh. The poll options are surprisingly mild. But I guess it's not about that...
What were you expecting?

A) Exterminate
B) Sterilize
C) Both A and B

?????

Come on now....:rolleyes:

There's plenty of Muslims in prison under lock and key..? Can't understand why YOU are complaining.
....because locked up isn't good enough when they could be on rafts to Antartica.


:rolleyes: When you give me bullshit replies I will reply, in kind. With bullshit.
No, it doesn't.

"Farhad Khosrokhavar, a French specialist on the subject, estimates..."
Strawman. Farhad Khosrokhavar is obviously a french specialist qualified on the subject. The Economist used him as a source because he is a specialist and the Economist is well respected as credible.

The article does not show anything more than that estimate.So prove it's wrong. I am taking it as credible, as does the economist. It has obviously been checked out by the economist of they wouldn't have published it. Stop denying reality.


*Yawn*
Don't swallow a fly.

Education, employment, integration, less ghettoization...
You realise that if you just keep letting more and more immigrants come in to the country, you're gonna have to "educate, employ, integrate and de-ghettofy" more and more "uneducated, unemployed, non-integrated ghetto people" ever year.

The last one seems to be quite important, and is an area where France has made serious mistakes in the past.
France's mistake was to open the floodgates from their former colonies.

I like how fiercely secular France names its suburbs after Catholic saints.

Then stuffs those suburbs with religious minorities.

What would be even more ironic is if the jails are named after Christian symbols as well.
Well that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Perhaps because of a little thing called history. France has only recently (historically) been fiercely secular, yet I'd be willing to bet most French streets were named a long time ago....:rolleyes:

France's mistake was to open the floodgates from their former colonies.
Not really, no. Letting people in hard-working people who didn't ask for much money in the 1950s and 1960s is what lead to the massive period of growth up until the petroleum crisis in 1973.

Not like the British, Italians, Germans etc. didn't do much the same.

Hey, nowt wrong with educating and employing people. I'd bet it'd get them to stop watching BET...or, uh, something like that.

....because locked up isn't good enough when they could be on rafts to Antartica.

:rolleyes: When you give me bullshit replies I will reply, in kind. With bullshit.

But this time you chose not to? Well, honesty is the best policy.

To be fair, preventing ghettoization of a minority is not easy.

Everyone wants to live in areas where the people around them are "like them". Predominantly <<Insert Minority Here>> areas are inevitable. The trick is to get non-minority residents NOT to move out, so that there is a little interleavening of cultures, and neither minority nor majority people develop a siege mentality.

Indeed, it's not easy. But France have made some choices, like creating areas of low-cost highrises aimed at giving poorer families with immigrant backgrounds somewhere they could afford to live. And these areas have quickly become "ghettos", since there were few (or no) existing residents living there in the first place.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.


Multiculturalism has never been practised in France, nor is it part of the political vocab of either left or right.

Sorry to interrupt with facts...please revert back to 'O NOES!!11!!! TeH Muslimz r teh eBBil' and forget any information you may have gleaned from this post....

Farhad Khosrokhavar is obviously a french specialist qualified on the subject. The Economist used him as a source because he is a specialist and the Economist is well respected as credible.

So prove it's wrong. I am taking it as credible, as does the economist. It has obviously been checked out by the economist of they wouldn't have published it. Stop denying reality.

Actually, if they quote him, they don't have to check his data. They can truthfully say that he in fact did say that. But whether or not he's talking out of his ass, we don't know.

You realise that if you just keep letting more and more immigrants come in to the country, you're gonna have to "educate, employ, integrate and de-ghettofy" more and more "uneducated, unemployed, non-integrated ghetto people" ever year.

Not necessarily. As long as we provide meaningful employment opportunities, everything else works itself out. In this respect, market forces work just fine to integrate people into society. This has been the results of findings from such studies as the Bouchard-Taylor hearings in Québec.

France's mistake was to open the floodgates from their former colonies.

They should have never colonised in the first place.

The problem with France is not with multiculturalism, it's with oversecularisation. If they let people get their religious passion out more in their daily lives, maybe young Muslims would have less zeal all bottled up and shit.

Make French society less secular. Also bring in moderate Muslim chaplains into French prisons, maybe.
So basically, you're saying.

"Hey France, we want you to change your cultural policy towards French society (secularism) because your immigrants don't like it and would like to show off their Islam off." :rolleyes:

With natives hear views like that, they get even more extreme towards immigrants who, instead of integrating into the society they moved to, demand the society to change for them.

It's totally bss aackwards.

Well that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Perhaps because of a little thing called history. France has only recently (historically) been fiercely secular, yet I'd be willing to bet most French streets were named a long time ago....:rolleyes:

pssssst...

(that's the joke. France actually can't be firecely secular on a cultural level if it was only recently institutionalised, and then only at a political, rather than social level)

...but I won't tell anyone you weren't able to figure that out.;)

Strawman.
You really don't know what the term means, do you?

Farhad Khosrokhavar is obviously a french specialist qualified on the subject. The Economist used him as a source because he is a specialist and the Economist is well respected as credible.
"Obviously"? I've never heard of him before.

And even given that the Economist is credible - it still remains an estimate. Which still makes the claim in your OP false.

BTW: Your claim is different from what The Economist is saying, in case you haven't noticed.

So prove it's wrong. I am taking it as credible, as does the economist. It has obviously been checked out by the economist of they wouldn't have published it. Stop denying reality.
That would be what you're doing, since you don't understand what an estimate is either.

And why is it "obvious" that The Economist would have checked out an estimate? After all, there are no numbers to actually check out, so the statistics are lacking.


Don't swallow a fly.
Not to worry, I don't swallow your bullshit.

You realise that if you just keep letting more and more immigrants come in to the country, you're gonna have to "educate, employ, integrate and de-ghettofy" more and more "uneducated, unemployed, non-integrated ghetto people" ever year.
And?

France's mistake was to open the floodgates from their former colonies.
Debatable.

What is the mistake the US is making?

So basically, you're saying.

"Hey France, we want you to change your cultural policy towards French society (secularism) because your immigrants don't like it and would like to show off their Islam off." :rolleyes:

With natives hear views like that, they get even more extreme towards immigrants who, instead of integrating into the society they moved to, demand the society to change for them.

It's totally bss aackwards.
It's not just that, it's also the fact that French 'catholic' values are also expressed by people being quite frankly retarded and voting FN to express that they find Catholic values superior to Muslim values. If Sarko says that France should show more of its Catholic past (and he has), that's essentially ignoring secularism to push an agenda. I don't see why all of the many cultures in France shouldn't get an opportunity to let off some steam too.

What is the mistake the US is making?

Ranting about muslims via GOP linked "instititutes". Its actually to blame for many of these kinds of threads and this kind of "O Noes!!1" thinking.

Ranting about muslims via GOP linked "instititutes". Its actually to blame for many of these kinds of threads and this kind of "O Noes!!1" thinking.

Maybe so :tongue:
...but that wouldn't explain the high rate of black Americans in US jails, I hope!

Maybe so :tongue:
...but that wouldn't explain the high rate of black Americans in US jails, I hope!

O. Sorry.

I'm old and tired.

Don't mock me.

You'll get here soon too.....

Not really, no. Letting people in hard-working people who didn't ask for much money in the 1950s and 1960s is what lead to the massive period of growth up until the petroleum crisis in 1973.

Not like the British, Italians, Germans etc. didn't do much the same.

I'm not talking about bringing in [temporary] workers to help rebuild war torn Europe, I'm talking about not enforcing the "temporary" factor of it and allowing former colonies a special immigration relationship with the mother country.

I'm not talking about bringing in [temporary] workers to help rebuild war torn Europe, I'm talking about not enforcing the "temporary" factor of it and allowing former colonies a special immigration relationship with the mother country.

Which is just more exploitation. You colonise their country, beat them up and generally oppress them, then when your country is having problems you ship them in to fix things before shipping them back to the hellhole you created in the first place.

Jailhouse jihad

http://kerfuffles.blogsome.com/images/EiffelTower.jpg

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12273877

Two things.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?

Um. Yeah.

What part of the prisons being breeding grounds for Muslim extremism did you not understand?

You appear not to understand the relationship between cause and effect.

BTW, I love your strategy of creating an outrageously ridiculous thread and then abandoning it for a new outrageous and ridiculous thread as soon as your claims in the first thread are debunked.

Actually, many people do find the percentage of Black Americans in Jail appalling, but are shouted at as "bigot!" when they point out the fact that Blacks are indeed grossly overrepresented in American jails.

Ghetto culture which is quite predominant in Black America?

"Taking part in illegal drugs, teenage pregnancy, Black Entertainment Television, high school dropouts, anti-intellectualism, gangsta rap, vulgarity, thievery, offensive clothing, vanity, parental alienation, single parenting and failing to live up to the ideals of Frederick Douglas, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the African American ancestors that preceded Generation X."

Probably the most insulting thing is that by quoting Wikipedia re Bill Cosby you think you aren't being bigoted.

Just out of curiosity: What was the teenage pregnancy rate in the 1950s when we all lived like Leave It To Beaver?

Also, where do you think ghetto culture comes from?

Originally Posted by The Atlantian islands
Actually, many people do find the percentage of Black Americans in Jail appalling, but are shouted at as "bigot!" when they point out the fact that Blacks are indeed grossly overrepresented in American jails.

Originally Posted by The Atlantian islands
Ghetto culture which is quite predominant in Black America?

Originally Posted by The Atlantian islands
"Taking part in illegal drugs, teenage pregnancy, Black Entertainment Television, high school dropouts, anti-intellectualism, gangsta rap, vulgarity, thievery, offensive clothing, vanity, parental alienation, single parenting and failing to live up to the ideals of Frederick Douglas, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and the African American ancestors that preceded Generation X."
In other words, it's because they're black. If only they would learn to be more white, white folks might lock them up less.

And yeah, seriously, TAI, the reason you (not "people", YOU) get called a racist is because you equate being in jail with simply being black. Of course you deny it, but anyone who reads the above three quotes together can see it clear as day.

Oh, and I reject your OP as claptrap. Your argument doesn't hold up because you clearly only cobbled it together quickly as an excuse to launch another anti-Muslim rant-fest. You don't even bother to try construct a debateable question. What's the matter, were you feeling jealous of all the McCain/Palin threads hogging the NSG spotlight?

Don't care. Oh Wait, oh noes ebil muslims not fitting into Europa. Quick, get them out and keep Europe white and Christian. Is that the answer you wanted?

I find it quite interesting that just as I suspected, when I post a thread that raises the arguement about problems with Islam in Europe, most posters on NSG tend to totally ignore the topic and derail the thread with nonesense and press non-issues instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Notably the fact that not only are Muslims grossly overrepresented in French prisons, but throughout the European continent's prisons.

(Talks about Muslim overrepresentation in French and other European prisons)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560_pf.html

This prison is majority Muslim -- as is virtually every house of incarceration in France. About 60 to 70 percent of all inmates in the country's prison system are Muslim, according to Muslim leaders, sociologists and researchers, though Muslims make up only about 12 percent of the country's population.

On a continent where immigrants and the children of immigrants are disproportionately represented in almost every prison system, the French figures are the most marked, according to researchers, criminologists and Muslim leaders.

"The high percentage of Muslims in prisons is a direct consequence of the failure of the integration of minorities in France," said Moussa Khedimellah, a sociologist who has spent several years conducting research on Muslims in the French penal system.

In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about 3 percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry. Research by the Open Society Institute, an advocacy organization, shows that in the Netherlands 20 percent of adult prisoners and 26 percent of all juvenile offenders are Muslim; the country is about 5.5 percent Muslim. In Belgium, Muslims from Morocco and Turkey make up at least 16 percent of the prison population, compared with 2 percent of the general populace, the research found.

Sociologists and Muslim leaders say the French prison system reflects the deep social and ethnic divides roiling France and its European neighbors as immigrants and a new generation of their children alter the demographic and cultural landscape of the continent.

(Talks about problems with Islamic extremism brewing in French prisons and overrepresentation of Muslims in these prison)
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?issue_id=3815

(First, if Islam is the religion of a large majority of French inmates, the prison system has only very recently decided to accommodate the practice of a moderate brand of Islam. In the first ever sociological study of Islam in French prisons, Farhad Khosrokhavar (Ecole des Hautes Etudes en Sciences Sociales), estimated that between 50% and 80% of French inmates are Muslims [3]. That number must be contrasted with France's overall Muslim population, which is 7-8%. Despite these numbers, the author found the almost "complete absence of institutional response" on the part of the authorities to accommodate Muslims (casafree.com, May 7). )

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/08/international/europe/08prisons.html

Despite making up only 10 percent of the population, Muslims account for most of the country's inmates and a growing percentage of the prison populations in many other European countries, an indication of their place at the bottom of the Continent's hierarchy.

France's prison population has risen by 20 percent in the past three years, largely because of aggressive pursuit of lower-level crimes.

The proportion of Muslims in prison has been growing even faster, reflecting the relative youth of Europe's largely Muslim immigrants.

While there are no official data on issues of race and ethnicity in much of Europe - it is in fact illegal to keep such data in many places - experts on prison populations agree on the new disproportion of Muslims here and elsewhere.
-------------------------------------------------
This is reality. The 'if' is non negotiable. It simply 'is'.

The 'why', the 'how', the 'what can we do about it' and the 'what will be the outcome', however, are indeed up for discussion.

Also, as these trends increase in the years to come, more and more people are gonna find it ridiculous when blinded fools stupidly call Islam "a religion" of peace, due to the fact that it's newest converts en masse are literally criminals.

Whether that does indeed mean anything when discussing whether or not Islam is or is not a religion of peace is irrelevant. What will be relevant is that less and less people will believe it is so when told so from the powers that be, due to their growing association of the majority of their country's prison population with Islam.

This is reality. The 'if' is non negotiable. It simply 'is'.

The 'why', the 'how', the 'what can we do about it' and the 'what will be the outcome', however, are indeed up for discussion.

Better question for discussion. What the fuck should we care? So they're Muslim. Whatever. The prison population doesn't represent French Muslims or Muslims in general.

I find it quite interesting that just as I suspected, when I post a thread that raises the arguement about problems with Islam in Europe, most posters on NSG tend to totally ignore the topic and derail the thread with nonesense and press non-issues instead of discussing the topic at hand.

Notably the fact that not only are Muslims grossly overrepresented in French prisons, but throughout the European continent's prisons.

(Talks about Muslim overrepresentation in French and other European prisons)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR2008042802560_pf.html



(Talks about problems with Islamic extremism brewing in French prisons and overrepresentation of Muslims in these prison)
http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?issue_id=3815



http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/08/international/europe/08prisons.html


-------------------------------------------------
This is reality. The 'if' is non negotiable. It simply 'is'.

The 'why', the 'how', the 'what can we do about it' and the 'what will be the outcome', however, are indeed up for discussion.

I'll note for the record that these are versions of the same story and, in fact, use the same source, Farhad Khosrokhavar.

And you are still missing the point of cause and effect.

Also, as these trends increase in the years to come, more and more people are gonna find it ridiculous when blinded fools stupidly call Islam "a religion" of peace, due to the fact that it's newest converts en masse are literally criminals.
Crystal ball time again? Tell us more about the future, Miss Cleo!

Whether that does indeed mean anything when discussing whether or not Islam is or is not a religion of peace is irrelevant. What will be relevant is that less and less people will believe it is so when told so from the powers that be, due to their growing association of the majority of their country's prison population with Islam.
Thank you for dropping the pretense that this thread is anything but another soapbox for you to stand on while reminding us all how much you hate Islam. But really, you needn't have bothered. We had not forgotten.

The only correlation here is that poor people are overly represented in prisons. Recent immigrants tend to be poor, France, due to its previous colonies, has a disproportionate amount of Muslim immigrants.

Or...it's part of a vast Muslim conspiracy to let the French government pay for lodgings and food so they can gather together and form their evil plans to take over the world.

One or the other.

Crystal ball time again? Tell us more about the future, Miss Cleo!


Thank you for dropping the pretense that this thread is anything but another soapbox for you to stand on while reminding us all how much you hate Islam. But really, you needn't have bothered. We had not forgotten.
So you didn't actually say anything to do with my post nor the articles I quoted.....

Stop trolling my thread.
I'll note for the record that these are versions of the same story and, in fact, use the same source, Farhad Khosrokhavar.

And you are still missing the point of cause and effect.
Moussa Khedimellah and the Open Society Institute are also quoted.

And I've yet to hear you actually discuss the articles given....

And I've yet to hear you actually discuss the articles given....

Perhaps if you read the first sentence of my first post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=14040040&postcount=37) in this thread to yourself out loud, you'll hear my words directly about the article given in the OP. Your subsequent articles are more of the same.

So you didn't actually say anything to do with my post nor the articles I quoted.....

Stop trolling my thread.


I did actually say something to do with your post, including the article you quoted. I said it was claptrap.

You quoted a source inaccurately in order to use it to dress up an attack against Islam you wished to make. You posed no question for the forum to debate. Rather than explain or justify your views in response to challenges/objections, you merely found additional versions of the same source and misapplied quotes from those, too. But you still lay out no reasoning of your own, nor indeed any clear position of your own -- except in that one post that I responded to.

If you claim that me pointing out that there is no substance to this thread is "trolling," then I think I can say that this thread is just a "spam thread" and that you should "get a blog."

The fact is that I'd bet most of these 'muslims' are North Africans, not the Middle East stereotype that TAI seems to carry around in his head.

So does Moroccan culture clash with France, Algerian culture?

What exactly is 'Muslim' culture?

Jailhouse jihad
Here, you want me to address your post? Fine:

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12273877

Two things.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.
1) Other posters have already explained how The Economist does not say what you claim it does.

2) Your use of insulting language to describe potential responders to your thread (before you even saw what kinds of responses you would get) indicates a lack of true intention to entertain debate.

3) Nobody "MUST" admit anything because you have failed to establish that the problem you are implying exists at all. The Economist doesn't do it for you all by itself. Where is YOUR argument, eh? Where is YOUR reasoning, YOUR explanation?

A thread that merely copies a source without attaching it to a argument or position belonging to the OP poster and/or framing a debateable question around it is a spam thread.

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?
What problem? You have shown me no problem, so there is nothing that needs to be solved. I notice that you don't take it upon yourself to declare what you think that problem is or to tell us how you think it should be solved. If you have somethign to say, then say it.

The two points taken together are the basis for my assertion that this thread lacks substance and that you are not being honest about your intention in creating it.

There, now I've addressed your OP and said something relevant to the thread. Happy?

The fact is that I'd bet most of these 'muslims' are North Africans, not the Middle East stereotype that TAI seems to carry around in his head.

So does Moroccan culture clash with France, Algerian culture?

What exactly is 'Muslim' culture?

Who is a more representative Muslim:

My neighbours who are Muslims from Bosnia, who have loud drunken parties, who's daughters wear more make-up that Paris Hilton, and who I'm pretty confident don't own a Qu'uran; the Africans down the road who wear very colourful headscarves and are almost constantly at the local mosque, who are quiet and polite, and so immaculately presented; or the Lebanese boys in Sydney, who raped a white girl just because she was white?

You can't classify 1.6 billion people as one homogenous group or culture. And you can't take one person or experience, and use it as the basis of opinions about 1.6 billion people.

He got pimpslapped in the "Oh noez!! N00speek!!" thread so now he's going back to the old standby of "Oh noez!! Eb1l mozlemz!! 3ur@bia!!!1111".

Not to mention it ignores the common observation that poor disaffected immigrant youth regardless of race or religion will be more likely to end up in prison in a foreign country they immigrate to.

Wow, and I thought he was only continuing the Kimchi Tradition with Selective Hearing and Punch-Drunk Persistence in the Face of Mass Rebuttals and Refutations. He's also carrying on the Heroic All-American and All-Kimchi duty of Eb1l M0zl3m Spotter.

Who is a more representative Muslim:

My neighbours who are Muslims from Bosnia, who have loud drunken parties, who's daughters wear more make-up that Paris Hilton, and who I'm pretty confident don't own a Qu'uran; the Africans down the road who wear very colourful headscarves and are almost constantly at the local mosque, who are quiet and polite, and so immaculately presented; or the Lebanese boys in Sydney, who raped a white girl just because she was white?

You can't classify 1.6 billion people as one homogenous group or culture. And you can't take one person or experience, and use it as the basis of opinions about 1.6 billion people.

Bah, you still don't understand that THE MUSLIMS are a homogenous hive-mind, that travels from place to place MUSLIMING people!

Bah, you still don't understand that THE MUSLIMS are a homogenous hive-mind, that travels from place to place MUSLIMING people!

Indeed. We Irish Euros drink our stout from paper bags, lest we get Imamed.

Course the worst thing is that if you don't drink it fast enough, it pours out the bag.....

Indeed. We Irish Euros drink our stout from paper bags, lest we get Imamed.

Course the worst thing is that if you don't drink it fast enough, it pours out the bag.....

Have the Irish ever had an issue about not drinking fast enough?
:tongue:

I'm not talking about bringing in [temporary] workers to help rebuild war torn Europe, I'm talking about not enforcing the "temporary" factor of it and allowing former colonies a special immigration relationship with the mother country.
Don't really see the problem with this myself. Especially since the vast majority of African immigrants to France are from north africa, which is like a couple of days by fishing boat, making any immigration laws ridiculous.

Jailhouse Jihad? I spy this year's next hot Christmas toy!

Jailhouse Jihad? I spy this year's next hot Christmas toy!
"The hot new toy selling all over Eurabia!"

Oh, and as immigrants are evil, why no complaint, or even mention of, the million or so Pieds-Noirs who migrated to France after the Algerian war?

"The hot new toy selling all over Eurabia!"
Ah, I'm forgetting, Christmas will be banned once the darkies take over - It'll be marketed for this year's Winter Festival of Multicultural Inclusion!

Oh, and as immigrants are evil, why no complaint, or even mention of, the million or so Pieds-Noirs who migrated to France after the Algerian war?
Because they're not in jail, obv..

Also because Bob Denard is awesome, and I'm pretty sure he was one of them.

Because they're not in jail, obv..

Also because Bob Denard is awesome, and I'm pretty sure he was one of them.
And we all know why that is...

Jailhouse Jihad? I spy this year's next hot Christmas toy!

'Play as Recruiting Imam, Potential Terrorist, or Liberal Lefty Caliphate denier'

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.See, the funny thing about that is that us "brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses" are aware that while muslims make up about 50% of the prison population and only 8% of the total population, they make up about 50% of the poor population. At least that's how the situation is* in Germany.

*by "is" I mean how the German police assesses the situation.

Well, the race/subculture/culture in question varies from country to country, but I'm pretty sure it's the same world over. Like in USA the majority (can't remember the exact numbers) of prisoners are non-white (hispanics, blacks, more exotic varieties), while the population so far is majorly white. Reporting biases, certainly yes, crime-committing biases, probably yes too. Subcultures clashing with the majority population's culture doesn't help, nor does "rage against authorities", as may be the case occasionally (like the riots in France a year or couple back).

It happens. Now we just need a country where Caucasian whites are a minority, and throw enough of them in the prison so that they make up at least 50% of the prison population. Anyone got a suitable country in mind? :D

Two things.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.

OHNOES! MUSLIMS ARE TEH CRIMINALS!

You know what's funny is Dinaverg tried to point out to you that you're being an obvious bigot by comparing your "disproportionate incarceration" statistics re: Muslims to those re: Blacks.

But you actually support racism against blacks just as much as you support bigotry towards Muslims:

Actually, many people do find the percentage of Black Americans in Jail appalling, but are shouted at as "bigot!" when they point out the fact that Blacks are indeed grossly overrepresented in American jails.

So we've established that you view the percentage of minorities - namely, of course, blacks and Muslims - in jails to be a "problem.

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?

Why don't you just go ahead and TELL us your final solution.

The problem is not, as you believe, that "black culture" (wink wink) or "Muslim culture" (wink wink) is criminal by nature, but that blacks and Muslims are discriminated against by police as well as the whole judicial system. They are more likely to be imprisoned for the very same crimes committed by non-blacks and non-Muslims.

But go ahead and continue trumpeting your disgusting, hateful bigotry. You ARE a bigot. That is just plain fact, unless you've been lying to us with every single post.

Better question for discussion. What the fuck should we care? So they're Muslim. Whatever. The prison population doesn't represent French Muslims or Muslims in general.

We're supposed to care because we're supposed to believe that Muslims are terrorists (hence, Muslims in jail = "Jailhouse Jihad"), and that their incarceration is due to how evil Islam is, and we're supposed to shake in our little jackboots and look to brave TAI for a solution.

We're supposed to care because we're supposed to believe that Muslims are terrorists (hence, Muslims in jail = "Jailhouse Jihad"), and that their incarceration is due to how evil Islam is, and we're supposed to shake in our little jackboots and look to brave TAI for a solution.

A Final Solution, in fact. Or something that at least purges Europe of those ebil, ebil Mohammedans and sticks them back into the savage, primitive Middle East where they can blow each other to shit for all we care.

Until we need their oil of course. That's when we go in and "liberate" them.

I think they should just shove any islamic extremist prisoners in prisoners in solitary confinement, particularly if they're jailed due to terrorism. Same goes with any muslim prisoners preaching there - if anything they preach has even the slightest hint of islamic fundamendtalism, shove them in solitary for the rest of their sentence. Not much chance of them preaching their ideology when they don't get any contact with other prisoners.

Oh, I forgot, that would probably be against their human rights these days. :rolleyes:

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?

Due to your choice of posts to respond to, I would like you to clarify once more: What do you actually believe the problem to be in this case?

'Play as Recruiting Imam, Potential Terrorist, or Liberal Lefty Caliphate denier'

Don't forget you can also build the Epic Unit, the Sleeper Agent Presidential Candidate!

Multiculturalism has never been practised in France, nor is it part of the political vocab of either left or right.

In fact, it's quite a dirty word in France.

You hit it on the head with the third poll option, TAI. Having spent time in both places, I often compare Detroit and Paris to explain this issue.

In Paris Muslim immigrants are shunted off to the suburbs where unemployment is pandemic, education is minimal and opportunities are nil. It's difficult for residents of the suburbs to get employment in the City itself due to discrimination and lack of language skills (also tied to the general skills they're not receiving school. such as utilising that learned language for other things)

In Detroit, poor blacks were left behind by monied whites in the 60s. Inner city Detroit has pandemic unemployment, education is terrible (The Detroit Public Schools system seems to be imploding recently) and opportunities are nil. It's difficult for city residents to get employment in the suburbs due to discrimination, lack of transportation.

In both of these cases the group is being perceived as an "other", something to be opposed or controllled by the majority. Being "otherized", when this occurs (actual psychologists please chime in as necessary) the group being ostracized will often form their own cultural traditions and mores. This is a reaction to being "otherized"

Anyway, quickly now before the Ambien really kicks in.

The things shared by these two groups are that they're geographically isolated, have little to no economic present or future. due to discriminiation, intentional or not.

The Ambien has hit full force, leaving me unable to finish this post the way I'd have liked but I'll come finish it after I've slept.

Oh, I forgot, that would probably be against their human rights these days. :rolleyes:

Yes, damn those human rights, damn them to hell! Getting in the way of a good old fashioned wank over how to abuse prisoners.

*snip*

Anyway, quickly now before the Ambien really kicks in.

*snip*

The Ambien has hit full force, leaving me unable to finish this post the way I'd have liked but I'll come finish it after I've slept.

Sorry to ignore your substance, but I was intrigued to see that someone else has a problem with posting after they've taken their sleep medication. :wink:

I keep expecting to get banned for something I don't remember writing. :eek::$:D

EDIT: Damn it, I forgot I was going to just let this thread die, especially because TAI has done a typical cut-and-run.

I think they should just shove any islamic extremist prisoners in prisoners in solitary confinement, particularly if they're jailed due to terrorism. Same goes with any muslim prisoners preaching there - if anything they preach has even the slightest hint of islamic fundamendtalism, shove them in solitary for the rest of their sentence. Not much chance of them preaching their ideology when they don't get any contact with other prisoners.

Oh, I forgot, that would probably be against their human rights these days. :rolleyes:

Damn human rights.

Next thing people will babble on about shit like freedom and justice.

Doesn't it just make you sick?

In Paris Muslim immigrants are shunted off to the suburbs where unemployment is pandemic, education is minimal and opportunities are nil.

In what sense?

Sorry to ignore your substance, but I was intrigued to see that someone else has a problem with posting after they've taken their sleep medication. :wink:

I keep expecting to get banned for something I don't remember writing. :eek::$:D

Yeah, I blame the Army and their expectation that I shift my rest cycle 8-12 hours every other day.

In what sense?

My understanding is that immigrants from the Maghreb generally go immediately to the suburbs because that's where their relatives or contacts already are. Once an immigrant arrives in the suburbs it's nearly impossible to get out because the immigrants generally speak very poor French, their schools are nonfunctional, and are discriminated against severely in the city proper (even when they do speak passable French). I suppose it's not so much an active policy of the French but more a problem of inaction. The only expenditures the French and Parisian governments seem to make in the banlieus are in the area of security, rather than engaging in programs that would enable these immigrants to join mainstream French society.

Strawman.
Not it isn't.
Farhad Khosrokhavar is obviously a french specialist qualified on the subject. The Economist used him as a source because he is a specialist and the Economist is well respected as credible.
If this appeal to authority was appealing to an actual authority on the subject of statistics then I might let it slide. But this is an appeal to the authority of a journalist who may or may not be any kind of expert on minority groups and what proportion of them are in prisons or something like that. You say he's an expert. You back this up with another appeal to authority, citing the Economist. They published what he said, therefore it must be right. You ignore the fact that they had the good sense to cover their asses and point out that Mr. Khosrokhavar was just estimating his statistic. Not much of an authority to appeal to.

So prove it's wrong. I am taking it as credible, as does the economist. It has obviously been checked out by the economist of they wouldn't have published it. Stop denying reality.
Quite the leap you're making there. If they fact checked his numbers then why are they calling them an estimate?


I, for one, estimate that no more than 10% of France's prison population is Muslim. This isn't terribly exciting, so I propose we discuss the intricacies of poo cannons and their design.

Ok, I misunderstood and took shunted off as meaning that the French government actively practice segregation.


rather than engaging in programs that would enable these immigrants to join mainstream French society.

What sort of programs?

Ok, I misunderstood and took shunted off as meaning that the French government actively practice segregation.

Apologies for my poor choice of words.

What sort of programs?

Education, mainly. Teach them the skills they'll need to survive in modern France. Teach them the language.

Also, there are a couple of options here. One could invest heavily into these suburbs and hope to attract businesses and employers right there, or they could strongly encourage (generally through monetary means) that they move elsewhere. Not necessarily outside of France (with the French population pyramid they need youth from somewhere) but to other cities and towns in "la profonde". Paris couldn't handle many thousands of illiterate immigrants herself, but could Angers, Nantes, Tours, Calais, La Rochelle, etc handle a dozen or half-lettered immigrants from time to time?

Also, there are a couple of options here. One could invest heavily into these suburbs and hope to attract businesses and employers right there, or they could strongly encourage (generally through monetary means) that they move elsewhere.

Generally though monetary means? Do you mean, for instance, the government partly subsidizing their living costs if they move? I don't really like that idea.

Jailhouse jihad

http://kerfuffles.blogsome.com/images/EiffelTower.jpg

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12273877

Two things.

1. The Economist article shows that Muslims make up one half of France's prison population, yet are only around 8% of the population. Even the most brainwashed of leftists viewing the world and the multicultural problems facing Western society through the rosiest of rose tinted glasses MUST admit that is problematic.

2. The problem is growing. What is the solution?

So some random "specialist" claims that tons of Muslims are in jail. For one, what is he a specialist in? Where/How did he gain the prestige to be considered an expert? Furthermore, why aren't there any other people cited as giving similar estimated? Why aren't any of these imaginary people specialists? Why are we jumping to conclusions when it is only the man's estimate?

Ultimately, I don't think we can have a definitive answer with the evidence provided. And while I wouldn't be surprised if France's Muslims were overrepresented in jail, I would attribute that mainly to their lower average income as well as a small amount of extra discrimination for being "un-French".

By the way, how do we know the problem is growing when there isn't conclusive data on the past decade or so, and not even for the present?

Generally though monetary means? Do you mean, for instance, the government partly subsidizing their living costs if they move? I don't really like that idea.

A combination of incentives to move, low cost housing (it's important the low cost housing not be all in one area, or the enclaves start again), improved education in the suburbs and incentives for other people to move into these suburbs.

It would cost money yes, but what are the alternatives? Letting it continue as it is really just isn't a good idea and the "pays des droits de l'homme" really couldn't just boot them all out in good conscience.

Not it isn't.
Maybe it can be seen as one, you know, if you squint your eyes, tilt your head, and go on crack? Maybe...

If this appeal to authority was appealing to an actual authority on the subject of statistics then I might let it slide. But this is an appeal to the authority of a journalist who may or may not be any kind of expert on minority groups and what proportion of them are in prisons or something like that. You say he's an expert. You back this up with another appeal to authority, citing the Economist. They published what he said, therefore it must be right. You ignore the fact that they had the good sense to cover their asses and point out that Mr. Khosrokhavar was just estimating his statistic. Not much of an authority to appeal to.
Point. :fluffle:

Maybe it can be seen as one, you know, if you squint your eyes, tilt your head, and go on crack? Maybe...


Point. :fluffle:

luvs me sum gravlen :fluffle:

This isn't terribly exciting, so I propose we discuss the intricacies of poo cannons and their design.

Indeed. Unlike the spud cannon, repetable quality of ammunition is a serious problem. There has to be that balance of consistency - neither too solid or too 'loose' - to both travel through the air for some distance and deliver a splatter effect upon arrival.

Indeed. Unlike the spud cannon, repetable quality of ammunition is a serious problem. There has to be that balance of consistency - neither too solid or too 'loose' - to both travel through the air for some distance and deliver a splatter effect upon arrival.
Well, if it's too loose one can always boil it dry until the right consistency is reached.

Indeed. Unlike the spud cannon, repetable quality of ammunition is a serious problem. There has to be that balance of consistency - neither too solid or too 'loose' - to both travel through the air for some distance and deliver a splatter effect upon arrival.

One must keep one's armourers well supplied with curry, to get a steady flow of ammunition and give it that extra kick.

Well, if it's too loose one can always boil it dry until the right consistency is reached.

Yes, but this lowers the whiff factor expothingally.

One must keep one's armourer's well supplied with curry, to get a steady flow of ammunition and give it that extra kick.

Curry and stout. A veritable WMD of a combination.

Curry and stout. A veritable WMD of a combination.

I wonder if it counts as a war crime......

I wonder if it counts as a war crime......

O its the victors who decide that kind of thing.