NationStates Jolt Archive

Let me put it this way : many women will wear revealing clothes on some occasion. No woman will wear them all the time. And no woman I ever heard of feels pressured to wear a skimpy outfit anytime she goes out in public.
But have you ever heard an Egyptian saying she feels pressured to wear a headscarf? It's entirely possible; I just can't think of ever hearing it in person or in the news.

Most women pick a style of clothes depending on mood and occasion. Therefore it must be their choice what to wear and how much to reveal.

I wouldn't know, but that makes sense.

A woman in a culture like the one described by the poster earlier on who claimed to be from Egypt does not have that choice.
This is where I disagree. An Egyptian woman could choose to not wear a headscarf. Most don't for two reasons: 1) they really want to, but they believe not wearing one will lead to a verbal or even physical attack or 2) why wouldn't they go out without a headscarf? They've always worn one, as does every other woman they know.

The first reason is of course horrible. No one should feel threatened because what they do and do not wear, and that really does reflect negatively on those societies. The second reason, though, I suspect is the bigger one, and it's the same one in western societies. Even what you said earlier, about women choosing clothing is itself a socially-inflicted decision. The idea that one would change her outfit and not just wear the same flannel shirt and sweatpants everyday does not spontaneously arise from most people; it's the result of advertising and the media and all that other stuff I mentioned.

But have you ever heard an Egyptian saying she feels pressured to wear a headscarf? It's entirely possible; I just can't think of ever hearing it in person or in the news.

I have actually. I've recently seen a documentary on the subject, and one women that was interviewed was a Egyptian in her early 50s. She recounted how about 30 years ago, you wouldn't see a woman anywhere in Cairo with a headscarf, let alone any kind of full body cover.
These days, she feels pressured to wear one whenever she is in Cairo because she does risk verbal abuse. She mentioned an incident where a taxi driver wouldn't let her into his car becasue she wasn't wearing a headscarf.

Another one is a friend of mine from Persia. She grew up in Teheran in the 50s and 60s and then moved to Germany. She never wore a headscarf in her life until the Islamc revolution. She has to now, whenever she visits her family in Persia. She utterly hates it.
She told me that it happened that a woman on the street in Teheran started shouting at her for wearing nylons instead of opaque tights.


This is where I disagree. An Egyptian woman could choose to not wear a headscarf. Most don't for two reasons: 1) they really want to, but they believe not wearing one will lead to a verbal or even physical attack or 2) why wouldn't they go out without a headscarf? They've always worn one, as does every other woman they know.

The first reason is of course horrible. No one should feel threatened because what they do and do not wear, and that really does reflect negatively on those societies. The second reason, though, I suspect is the bigger one, and it's the same one in western societies. Even what you said earlier, about women choosing clothing is itself a socially-inflicted decision. The idea that one would change her outfit and not just wear the same flannel shirt and sweatpants everyday does not spontaneously arise from most people; it's the result of advertising and the media and all that other stuff I mentioned.

No woman has always worn a headscarf. No woman is born with it, and as children they are free to walk around without one.
Also, the social pressure to wear them seems to have grown massively in Islamic societies in recent years. Even the burqa is not as often made out a tradtitional garment, it's only been around for about a century or so and was until about 2 decades ago regarded as extreme even in Afghanistan.

I have actually. I've recently seen a documentary on the subject, and one women that was interviewed was a Egyptian in her early 50s. She recounted how about 30 years ago, you wouldn't see a woman anywhere in Cairo with a headscarf, let alone any kind of full body cover.
These days, she feels pressured to wear one whenever she is in Cairo because she does risk verbal abuse. She mentioned an incident where a taxi driver wouldn't let her into his car becasue she wasn't wearing a headscarf.

Another one is a friend of mine from Persia. She grew up in Teheran in the 50s and 60s and then moved to Germany. She never wore a headscarf in her life until the Islamc revolution. She has to now, whenever she visits her family in Persia. She utterly hates it.
She told me that it happened that a woman on the street in Teheran started shouting at her for wearing nylons instead of opaque tights.



No woman has always worn a headscarf. No woman is born with it, and as children they are free to walk around without one.
Also, the social pressure to wear them seems to have grown massively in Islamic societies in recent years. Even the burqa is not as often made out a tradtitional garment, it's only been around for about a century or so and was until about 2 decades ago regarded as extreme even in Afghanistan.

Noone has always worn clothes either. When I was small, my mother frequently let me run around naked in the summer, I took showers and baths with my neighbours and both of my parents, and I didn't own a bathing suit until I was about 6. But then my parents started encouraging me to wear clothes all the time as I was getting older.

I still want to know whether you feel the same about other types of religious covering - Mormon "modest dress", the Exclusive Brethren's clothing requirements, the Amish even. All of these are just as restrictive as some versions of Islam. Not all cultures that are predominantly Islamic require or even promote the headscarf. I have repeatedly brought up my Balkan Muslim neighbours as an example. So why insist that it is a part of Islam and not a cultural decision that is more prominent in some areas?

I have actually. I've recently seen a documentary on the subject, and one women that was interviewed was a Egyptian in her early 50s. She recounted how about 30 years ago, you wouldn't see a woman anywhere in Cairo with a headscarf, let alone any kind of full body cover.
These days, she feels pressured to wear one whenever she is in Cairo because she does risk verbal abuse. She mentioned an incident where a taxi driver wouldn't let her into his car becasue she wasn't wearing a headscarf.

Another one is a friend of mine from Persia. She grew up in Teheran in the 50s and 60s and then moved to Germany. She never wore a headscarf in her life until the Islamc revolution. She has to now, whenever she visits her family in Persia. She utterly hates it.
She told me that it happened that a woman on the street in Teheran started shouting at her for wearing nylons instead of opaque tights.

I stand corrected.*
No woman has always worn a headscarf. No woman is born with it, and as children they are free to walk around without one.
Also, the social pressure to wear them seems to have grown massively in Islamic societies in recent years. Even the burqa is not as often made out a tradtitional garment, it's only been around for about a century or so and was until about 2 decades ago regarded as extreme even in Afghanistan.
If clothing is like the politics and religion of places such as Afghanistan, it isn't surprising that it is not so much traditional as it is reactionary.
Again, I completely agree that the societies where burqas are required are objectifying women. But just the wearing of the burqa, or even the culture is is associated with, is not the problem. The problem is the authoritarian laws forcing it. Your friend who lived in Iran in the 50s is an excellent example: being forced to wear a headscarf, if it is an unbroken tradition, is only about thirty years old. You're right; authoritarianism is no fun.
But the OP mentioned the "Islamic tradition" of wearing headscarves. Social pressure from tradition seems no worse than social pressures we have in the U.S. (or Ireland). In conclusion:

Authoritarian dress codes--bad
Societal pressures--meh
Individual choice--good

*Kind of. I guess it's still true I haven't heard anyone complain, but you know what I mean.

I still want to know whether you feel the same about other types of religious covering - Mormon "modest dress", the Exclusive Brethren's clothing requirements, the Amish even. All of these are just as restrictive as some versions of Islam. Not all cultures that are predominantly Islamic require or even promote the headscarf. I have repeatedly brought up my Balkan Muslim neighbours as an example. So why insist that it is a part of Islam and not a cultural decision that is more prominent in some areas?

I've stated numerous times in this thread already that I don't make any distinctions between religions. Any religion that regards women as sex objects that need to be covered up and men as animals that can't handle being exposed to too much of their objects of desire without giving in to insitinct is rather sick in my opinion.

I've stated numerous times in this thread already that I don't make any distinctions between religions. Any religion that regards women as sex objects that need to be covered up and men as animals that can't handle being exposed to too much of their objects of desire without giving in to insitinct is rather sick in my opinion.

Sorry, I must have missed that. But thank you for answering my point.

Now I may have missed this also in the thread, but I would like you to advise on whether or not you view the headscarf as a cultural or religious phenomenon? Due to the fact that there are several predominantly Muslim cultures that do not require or even expect the headscarf? I hardly see how it can be considered uniform across the religion when there are swathes of Muslims who do not wear any form of restrictive dress, let alone a headscarf?

Sorry, I must have missed that. But thank you for answering my point.

Now I may have missed this also in the thread, but I would like you to advise on whether or not you view the headscarf as a cultural or religious phenomenon? Due to the fact that there are several predominantly Muslim cultures that do not require or even expect the headscarf? I hardly see how it can be considered uniform across the religion when there are swathes of Muslims who do not wear any form of restrictive dress, let alone a headscarf?

Would you say the Amish are Christians? I think they are, and they are one of the groups over-stressing the sexuality of women to the point where they are being objectified.
So, while not all Christians promote this, some do.
In the Muslim world, there certainly are groups that do not require the headscarf (though I honestly haven't heard of any group yet that doesn't encourage it in their members, to be honest), but many do.
The people I'm bound to walk into on a daily basis that do wear headscarves mostly do so because they are Muslim.

The garment might well have its origins in cultural traditions, but these days it's clearly religions that promote it and infuse it with meaning to the wearer. To give you an example, most European women I know of who converted to Islam started wearing headscarves. It's hardly a cultural thing for them.
I would call it a religious phenomenon.

Would you say the Amish are Christians? I think they are, and they are one of the groups over-stressing the sexuality of women to the point where they are being objectified.
So, while not all Christians promote this, some do.
In the Muslim world, there certainly are groups that do not require the headscarf (though I honestly haven't heard of any group yet that doesn't encourage it in their members, to be honest), but many do.
The people I'm bound to walk into on a daily basis that do wear headscarves mostly do so because they are Muslim.

The garment might well have its origins in cultural traditions, but these days it's clearly religions that promote it and infuse it with meaning to the wearer. To give you an example, most European women I know of who converted to Islam started wearing headscarves. It's hardly a cultural thing for them.
I would call it a religious phenomenon.

And a huge majority of the Muslims I know don't wear the headscarf. It really depends on your previous experience with the religion as to whether you think that headscarves are predominantly a religious phenomenon or not. I happen to have experience that says that they are not.

And a huge majority of the Muslims I know don't wear the headscarf. It really depends on your previous experience with the religion as to whether you think that headscarves are predominantly a religious phenomenon or not. I happen to have experience that says that they are not.

Oh, I know many Muslims who don't wear it, either.
But they tend to not be the very religious types.

Oh, I know many Muslims who don't wear it, either.
But they tend to not be the very religious types.

Well, I would hesitate to pass judgment on the veracity of my friends' and neighbours' religious convictions based on their decision not to wear a piece of clothing. I asked one of the girls I know about it once, and she responded that it was a personal choice as to whether one feels that they wish to wear it or not. But then, I have met others who have said that they intend on wearing it at various points in their lives, just not yet. It all depends on perspective as I said.

Well, I would hesitate to pass judgment on the veracity of my friends' and neighbours' religious convictions based on their decision not to wear a piece of clothing. I asked one of the girls I know about it once, and she responded that it was a personal choice as to whether one feels that they wish to wear it or not. But then, I have met others who have said that they intend on wearing it at various points in their lives, just not yet. It all depends on perspective as I said.

You misunderstand me. I didn't see them not wearing the headscarf and concluded that they're not religious.
I know from talks with them that they aren't very religious, and that's why they don't wear it.

You misunderstand me. I didn't see them not wearing the headscarf and concluded that they're not religious.
I know from talks with them that they aren't very religious, and that's why they don't wear it.

Sorry, I apologise for the misunderstanding. Particularly after re-reading your post. Long day at work and all that :$

Oh, I know many Muslims who don't wear it, either.
But they tend to not be the very religious types.
People can joust with anecdotal evidence forever without accomplishing anything. For instance, I've known Muslims who were very religious but viewed the headscarf as an archaic, sexist, cultural tradition that didn't belong to their culture anyway, and who rejected it and encouraged both their daughters and sons to cover their heads only while worshipping in the mosque. I have been told specifically by these people that Muslims should cover their heads before God only. These Muslims were from Pakistan, mostly, and were living in New York City when I met them.

I think the only thing that anecdotes tell us is that there are a lot of different views of the headscarf, both positive and negative, among Muslims themselves. Your view of the headscarf -- singling out that one garment -- seems to hinge on your personal experience with the people you have met, but that is not the only experience out there to be had.

I agree with you 100% that it is pretty fucked up to treat women as nothing but sex objects, and men as uncontrollable sex-crazed animals, and to blame women for men's supposed lusts.

But I put the following points to you:

1) That attitude is not exclusive to Islam nor to religion in general. Rather than attack religion(s), I would prefer to attack the attitude directly.

Yes, I do blame certain religions for exploiting/encouraging that attitude in order to cement their power structure, and I think they should be criticized for that. But I do not believe they created the attitude, and I do not believe attacking them as if they did will solve the problem of that attitude in various societies.

2) As bad as that attitude is, it does not negate the sincerity of those women who do voluntarily cover themselves up and choose to obscure their sexuality for their own personal reasons, including their own intense religious belief and/or desire to adhere to cultural traditions.

I don't care what people choose to do with their own lives, as long as they are choosing it of their own free will, and as long as they don't force it on anyone else. I may not personally like what I think of when I see women dressed a certain way, but I am not going to force my views on them anymore than I would want them to force their views on me. If I could someday find myself living in a world where I could be confident than any Muslim or Christian or Jewish woman covering herself up so entirely was doing so because she wanted to, then I would have no problem with it at all.

I have met women without headscarves who practice Ramadan. They were raised in Montreal suburbs mostly. So they practice Islam, but are culturally Canadian. But Cabra's experience with recent European converts shows that the headscarf can also be religious and not cultural.

So, the headscarf is both cultural and religious, or sometimes just one or the other.

Now, I have a problem with the objectification of men and women as sexual objects (unless they as individuals want to be objectified), regardless if it is perpetrated in the name of culture or religion or making a buck or anything else.

But we have also seen that the headscraf doesn't automatically imply such objectification. It all depends on how we see the headscarf.

I think I don't like cultural and religious practices that inherently objectify people against their will. The headscarf seems like merely the tool used in certain contexts.

I think the only thing that anecdotes tell us is that there are a lot of different views of the headscarf, both positive and negative, among Muslims themselves. Your view of the headscarf -- singling out that one garment -- seems to hinge on your personal experience with the people you have met, but that is not the only experience out there to be had.

^This.

I don't think one can say that a specific message is sent by the headscarf any more than one can say that a mini-skirt automatically sends the message, "I'm looking to get laid."

Some women choose to dress in a very sexy manner when they are out looking to hook up and some choose to do it for other reasons. Likewise, some women may wear a headscarf because they have internalized (or simply fear) the idea that choosing not to will open them up to attack. Others choose it for other reasons.

There is no consistent message inherent to a given article of clothing.

Now, there is a message sent by forced dress codes - and it is one of control. It is generally a message that, should you step outside of some prescribed norm, you do open yourself up to punishment or attack - often of a sexual nature.

Of course, that general attitude is not confined to Islamic societies. Such societies are simply those in which we see the most extreme levels of cover required to prevent such things. Even in our own society, when a scantily clad (by our standards, of course) woman is attacked, she is often blamed for it because of her mode of dress. Even in our own society, a woman is not allowed to follow the same standards of dress as a man without facing legal repercussions.

Note, I'm not saying they are the same in degree, just that they are the same in the general idea. A woman's body is considered to be more sexual than a man's and thus must be more covered. A woman who chooses to break the boundaries faces very real possibilities of being hounded at the very least, and may be attacked for it at the worst.

I agree with you 100% that it is pretty fucked up to treat women as nothing but sex objects, and men as uncontrollable sex-crazed animals, and to blame women for men's supposed lusts.

I would hope that we can all agree on this.

1) That attitude is not exclusive to Islam nor to religion in general. Rather than attack religion(s), I would prefer to attack the attitude directly.

Yes, I do blame certain religions for exploiting/encouraging that attitude in order to cement their power structure, and I think they should be criticized for that. But I do not believe they created the attitude, and I do not believe attacking them as if they did will solve the problem of that attitude in various societies.

I don't think those religions who seem to support such attitudes are actually saying that men are uncontrollable. While it may sometimes be the case, I don't think the idea is that men will be driven so crazy by lust that they simply can't stop themselves from raping uncovered women. Unfortunately, I think the message is often that, if a woman doesn't "dress properly", there is no reason for a man to control himself. He could, but doesn't need to, since the woman has done something wrong and can now be punished.

Dem, I agree completely with all your points, above.

SNIP

See, that is what I wanted to say.