NationStates Jolt Archive

I realize that some people just can't argue that well. It's fine.

I won't name names. I don't have to.

I also realize some people disagree with me quite viscerally. That's also fine.

Gaunteled Fist, for instance, a conservative that argues well without having to call his opponent "anti-American" to make a point, earned my respect, something which I outright said as early as yesterday.

I don't have to respect those who would use ad hominems against opponents. Ad hominems like "anti-American".

Now, I know some people will come here to say that I flame those that disagree with me - again I point to the example of Gaunteled Fist, which surprised me quite a bit in his handling of the issue at hand.

I not only respect him, I like him.

Because he acts and argues in a respectable way, not in the idiotic way that it takes for someone to even utter the expression "anti-American" at an opponent when not in jest.

This is the difference between being worthy of respect and not.

I will have my say on this, because it is important: Disagreeing with America's foreign policy isn't anti-American.

Throwing the expression at people you disagree with in the hopes of shutting them up, however, is anti-democratic. It works against freedom of speech. And it runs contrary to the ideals of Enlightenment.

Democracy, freedom of speech and the ideals of Enlightenment are all American ideals.

Draw your own conclusions.

[raises hand] I think I'm one of those ppl. I think you chastised me in a thread about that.

But to argue the point, lemme see if I can at least make a logical statement. If not, I'll just be quiet.

American foreign policy reflects the goals of America (not necessarily the people). It reflects the interests of America and what the country (collectively) believes is important to it. Those who oppose it, are in a way, "Anti-American" for being in conflict with America in obtaining these goals/maintaining these interests.

So, it's more like, you can be "Anti-American" but not necessarily an "American-hater."

Heikoku, seriously dude. Delete this, back away from the computer, and cool off for a bit. You're heading to losing another nation and I'd hate to see that happen to ya.

[raises hand] I think I'm one of those ppl. I think you chastised me in a thread about that.

But to argue the point, lemme see if I can at least make a logical statement. If not, I'll just be quiet.

American foreign policy reflects the goals of America (not necessarily the people). It reflects the interests of America and what the country (collectively) believes is important to it. Those who oppose it, are in a way, "Anti-American" for being in conflict with America in obtaining these goals/maintaining these interests.

So, it's more like, you can be "Anti-American" but not necessarily an "American-hater."

But then you would have to be willing to argue that America's ideals aren't always good. And I myself could argue that, America's actions running counter to its own interests, the policies are the anti-American things, ergo who supports it is "anti-American".

Heikoku, seriously dude. Delete this, back away from the computer, and cool off for a bit. You're heading to losing another nation and I'd hate to see that happen to ya.

Oh, but I'm within the rules, am I not? I didn't name names, I made no threatening remarks...

Your anti-bad arguers, H2, you are wrong about them just like you were wrong about Iraq.

*cowers, it's a joke H2, please believe me*

Your anti-bad arguers, H2

That I am. :D

Oh, but I'm within the rules, am I not? I didn't name names, I made no threatening remarks...
That's for the Mods to decide, but since they just closed down your other thread and you're being about as subtle as "Wink Wink Nudge Nudge" in terms of names...

It ain't worth it. Go take out your frustration on a bad anime or two... it'll make you feel better.

That's for the Mods to decide, but since they just closed down your other thread and you're being about as subtle as "Wink Wink Nudge Nudge" in terms of names...

It ain't worth it. Go take out your frustration on a bad anime or two... it'll make you feel better.

'Tis good advice.

Your anti-bad arguers, H2, you are wrong about them just like you were wrong about Iraq.

*cowers, it's a joke H2, please believe me*

No, my anti-bad arguers.


...


Unfunny GrammarNazi joke FTW!

That I am. :D

lol, good I can call you that then, without fear of a famous H2 tirade:p

Yes, there is certainly that argument, and I can't make a good counter towards that. I suppose it has to deal with how you view the topics at hand.

You also have to decide whether or not the policies you are against are fundamentaly good or not.

A good example is Iraq. Now, the policy is that we're bringing democracy to a country that for years was a dictatorship. Despite all the violence and so on and so forth, has that not been accomplished? Doesn't the country now have a Parliament? And doesn't that agree with the American ideal of democracy as you stated?

No, my anti-bad arguers.


...


Unfunny GrammarNazi joke FTW!

Just to show off my poor grammar, that doesn't make sense to say my. Please explain.

EDIT: Unless you meant I should have put You're instead of your. If that is the case then yes I get the joke, I think. :confused:

lol, good I can call you that then, without fear of a famous H2 tirade:p

Feel free to, it's a name I wear with pride!

Democracy, freedom of speech and the ideals of Enlightenment are all American ideals.

Draw your own conclusions.
So is "Latin America is our bitch and might makes right", so there we go.

Yes, there is certainly that argument, and I can't make a good counter towards that. I suppose it has to deal with how you view the topics at hand.

You also have to decide whether or not the policies you are against are fundamentaly good or not.

A good example is Iraq. Now, the policy is that we're bringing democracy to a country that for years was a dictatorship. Despite all the violence and so on and so forth, has that not been accomplished? Doesn't the country now have a Parliament? And doesn't that agree with the American ideal of democracy as you stated?

It was, however, brought about by an external force (undemocratic) and through lies to the world and Americans themselves (against Enlightenment). So one can still argue that it's anti-American (or pro-American) depending on how much weight each of these points has.

Bearing in mind the OTHER value of the expression "anti-American" which is its ever-present purpose of making an opponent of a policy shut up, right or not. "N*gger", for instance, comes from "nigro", which is merely Latin for "black", but it is a charged word that non-racist people wouldn't throw at someone.

So is "Latin America is our bitch and might makes right", so there we go.

That's not a value as much as a psychotic delusion of some people that sometimes have access to power in America.

That's not a value as much as a psychotic delusion of some people that sometimes have access to power in America.
It's pretty much a constant in US politics, which is all a value ever is. A tradition which sort of works.

Didn't we have an eight page thread that dealt with this shit already?

It's pretty much a constant in US politics, which is all a value ever is. A tradition which sort of works.

About the same tradition worked in the mid-east. These things bite innocents in the ass.

About the same tradition worked in the mid-east. These things bite innocents in the ass.
Not really. The US has only really got involved in the middle east in the last 30-40 years. It's been heavily involved in Latin America for, ooh, ages.

Didn't we have an eight page thread that dealt with this shit already?

Why did you kiss a squirrel?

That's off-topic, but...

It was, however, brought about by an external force (undemocratic) and through lies to the world and Americans themselves (against Enlightenment). So one can still argue that it's anti-American (or pro-American) depending on how much weight each of these points has.

Bearing in mind the OTHER value of the expression "anti-American" which is its ever-present purpose of making an opponent of a policy shut up, right or not. "N*gger", for instance, comes from "nigro", which is merely Latin for "black", but it is a charged word that non-racist people wouldn't throw at someone.

The regime of Saddam (and others) was mainly contrived as a stoppage of Soviet incursion/expansion. Another ideal of 'America' is capitalism, and nothing is more of a threat to that than communism. So, while the methods were 'anti-American,' the reasons behind the actions were. As you said, it depends on how much weight you put on either side.

Hrm....arrogance, on the other hand, is just as good as proper debate technique. I dislike people who exhibit an undeserved (hell, even a deserved) sense of superiority, especially on the internet. It strikes me as sticking your dick in a wall socket and calling hot sexy time.

Not really. The US has only really got involved in the middle east in the last 30-40 years. It's been heavily involved in Latin America for, ooh, ages.

Then you can claim some American ideals run counter to some others...

The regime of Saddam (and others) was mainly contrived as a stoppage of Soviet incursion/expansion. Another ideal of 'America' is capitalism, and nothing is more of a threat to that than communism. So, while the methods were 'anti-American,' the reasons behind the actions were. As you said, it depends on how much weight you put on either side.

Maybe, but, as I said, the charged expression, the buzzword, is used as a means to try and prevent someone from arguing, is it not?

Then you can claim some American ideals run counter to some others...
Yep.

Maybe, but, as I said, the charged expression, the buzzword, is used as a means to try and prevent someone from arguing, is it not?

Sadly, it is. I personally think people shouldn't resolve to certain words/labels unless absolutely necessary.

But just because someone calls you a name isn't a reason to stop arguing, either.

Yep.

*Collective American head asplode*

Sadly, it is. I personally think people shouldn't resolve to certain words/labels unless absolutely necessary.

But just because someone calls you a name isn't a reason to stop arguing, either.

I don't - I just start arguing about that name until I shame the person into the same silence they tried to intimidate me into.

Edit: In before the "Yeah, we've all seen how THAT worked out."

Well, I dunno about what happened cuz I wasn't there, but good on ya, mate ^__<

Why did you kiss a squirrel?

That's off-topic, but...

There's a hideous pop song around at he moment where the lyrics go "I kissed a girl, and I liked it", however the first time I heard it it seemed that she had kissed a squirrel, and liked it, which seemed to me to be an excellent motto to live your life by.

Imagine my disappointment when I heard the song clearly:(

This entire thread is nothing more than a criticism of GauntletedFist's ability to argue. In b4 the lock for spamming or flamebaiting.

There's a hideous pop song around at he moment where the lyrics go "I kissed a girl, and I liked it", however the first time I heard it it seemed that she had kissed a squirrel, and liked it, which seemed to me to be an excellent motto to live your life by.

Imagine my disappointment when I heard the song clearly:(

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/jq_tan/Misc/sqlgrl5.jpg

And SHE beat Doctor DOOM and THANOS! HOW COOL IS THAT? :D

This entire thread is nothing more than a criticism of GauntletedFist's ability to argue.

Uhm, Good criticism, I assume you mean?

Uhm, Good criticism, I assume you mean?

Good or not, it still isn't terribly relevant to anything. If you want to talk to GF there are TGs.



Though, to be fair, I've only read the first page(shut up, there was only one page when I replied >.> <.<), so maybe this has moved on.

Having skimmed through the thread, I don't see any point other than you thinking some people can't argue. Yeah, spam or flamebait to my eyes.

Having skimmed through the thread, I don't see any point other than you thinking some people can't argue. Yeah, spam or flamebait to my eyes.

Now, now, I didn't name names.

I only wanted to have the last word. It's about winning, nothing more, nothing less.

I will have my say on this, because it is important: Disagreeing with America's foreign policy isn't anti-American.


You have had your say on this, to the tune of 18 pages, a couple of threads in Moderation and the considerable exasperation of this mod. Enough, Heikoku. Take the advice of several other posters and leave it alone.