NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/bBREAKING+NEWSb+School+shooting+in+Kauhajoki+-+Nine+dead+many+injured/1135239657999

:( My thoughts goes out to the family and friends of the victims.

*In before gun debate*

The 2nd in a year, isn't it?

It's unfortunate that media coverage of such things only encourages more of these fucking idiots.

I think this is the first school shooting I've read about where the shooter actually survived.

It's unfortunate that media coverage of such things only encourages more of these fucking idiots.I would very much like to read your study on the subject.

I know WMU IIRC was from the south part of Finland, I hope he wasn't involved.

I would very much like to read your study on the subject.

I'll get right on interviewing all the dead ones and let you know. Anyone know a reliable medium?

I know WMU IIRC was from the south part of Finland, I hope he wasn't involved.

He's from Jarvenpaa, this was in Kahuaoki.(sp?)

I'll get right on interviewing all the dead ones and let you know. Anyone know a reliable medium?Good point. I guess you're right- as it stands you really can't tell whether or not media coverage encourages this sort of thing or not and there isn't much use in uninformed speculation about it.

This is clearly a result of the Finnish Gun-worship culture. *nod*

This is clearly a result of the Finnish Gun-worship culture. *nod*
We don't worship guns. They are just prophets of the Bullets.

This is clearly a result of the Finnish Gun-worship culture. *nod*Finland, to my knowledge, has a higher gun ownership rate than the US.

Finland, to my knowledge, has a higher gun ownership rate than the US.
They probably also have a lot more seasonal affective disorder.

They probably also have a lot more seasonal affective disorder.
Probably. Must have been the sunshine that made him do it.

He's from Jarvenpaa, this was in Kahuaoki.(sp?)

So I recalled Incorrectly then.

Technically this is spam, where's the point of view?

Anyway, so there seems to be a trend spike with these things, where it's not passed into being endemic to the system.

Something shocking can be memetic.

There seems to be something in how we learn through imitation that backfires, we seek similar reactions and test. So where we see that crying gains attention, say, as babies, we'll cry again to see if that action has a consistent reaction, i.e., adult protection/comfort comes.

This desire to test somehow translates into wanting to mimic out-of-the-ordinary actions, anything new, to test the action-reaction sequence. Mostly this is harmless, it can lead to minor obsessions in some.

In certain circumstances, this can result in events like this, where someone, whether from anger, rejection or whatever powerful negative emotion, overrides their empathy for others, takes up the mimic 'get attention' and dismisses learned cultural standards. Isolation can also be a strong factor, where someone is inherently apart from society, whether physically or mentally.

A precedent has been set in Finland to do this, it may just be temporary, as a fad, as suicides spikes have been seen in other countries, it may disappear.

Some countries exaggerate the possibility by a cultural glorification of guns, whether due to unresolvable war - civil in certain parts of Africa, previously drugs in certain parts of South America - internally loose laws - gang warfare in Russia or cultural - historic symbolism in the US, and will see a comparatively large 'death by gun' percentage. Some countries, not so much.

Having more guns is probably a factor, or at least access. All in all, there’s steps to minimize the risk.

The balance is between freedom and security.

I'm going for form not content here.

I think this is the first school shooting I've read about where the shooter actually survived.
Not in this case: He's dead.

Brenda Ann Spencer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Ann_Spencer) survived though, if you count her.
Finland, to my knowledge, has a higher gun ownership rate than the US.

They don't, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 (http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/sas/publications/yearb2007.html). The US is on top with 90 guns per 100 people, while Finland is third in the world with 56 guns per 100 people.

Not in this case: He's dead.

Ah, but I hadn't heard that when I made my post, my news told me was in a critical condition in hospital.

Anything is better than going through another Finnish winter, I guess.

Finland, to my knowledge, has a higher gun ownership rate than the US.

With, interestingly enough, more restrictive gun laws. I think that's an interesting juxtaposition there, don't you? You need a license to own a gun in Finland, but guns are more prevalent.

My thoughts and prayers go out to the families, friends, and community that were affected by this tragedy.

With, interestingly enough, more restrictive gun laws. I think that's an interesting juxtaposition there, don't you? You need a license to own a gun in Finland, but guns are more prevalent.

See my post above. The Small Arms Survey 2007 disagrees.

Edit: And other sources disagreeing with that report places the number even lower, between 30-35 guns per 100 people.

See my post above. The Small Arms Survey 2007 disagrees.

Saw after I posted.

On the other hand, though, for the seeming proliferation of small arms in the US, a majority of those arms are concentrated in the hands a smaller number of people. I'd be interested to see how a similar ratio works in Finland.

The guy got his gun license in August. The police talked to him yesterday, worried about the videos he posted on YouTube. They found no reason to do anything abut his license or his guns though...

The suspect posted a video of himself on the internet last week firing a gun.

As a result of this, police interviewed him on Monday but decided they did not have enough evidence to revoke his licence, the interior minister said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7630969.stm

Saw after I posted.

On the other hand, though, for the seeming proliferation of small arms in the US, a majority of those arms are concentrated in the hands a smaller number of people. I'd be interested to see how a similar ratio works in Finland.
There's about 1.6 million guns in Finland and 650.000 people having a license. I suck at math, but seems like 2.5 guns per license...

I feel sorry for the victims and their families.


When this was first reported here, they had one of those dubious "experts" on, saying how much he liked playing those "killer games" first person shooters and watching horror flics, and that that is directly linked to his behavior.

Right. Him having a gun to do the shooting with didn't have any influence on him actually doing the shooting.

(He also argued that if someone really wanted to shoot someone, he'd get his fingers on a gun very easily. Now, I know that Finland seems to have lots of guns growing on trees - but to be honest, I wouldn't know where to get a gun from without raising some eyebrows.)

The black market of firearms is not very large down here AFAIK, as there's no buyers. Some handguns, shotguns, rifles and a couple of old submachine guns.

And even if our madman wouldn't be able to get him/herself a firearm, well, I don't think anyone's going to deny the fact that we humans are quite creative when it comes to hurting and killing others.

What really should be looked at is the crappy state of psychological and psychiatric help offered, especially to the youth and especially in small towns such as Kauhajoki. It's partly a cultural thing though, and I do admit that I propably wouldn't be able to seek help even if I knew I needed it.

if this continues we will after to declare Finland part of the US.

I feel sorry for the victims and their families.


When this was first reported here, they had one of those dubious "experts" on, saying how much he liked playing those "killer games" first person shooters and watching horror flics, and that that is directly linked to his behavior.

Right. Him having a gun to do the shooting with didn't have any influence on him actually doing the shooting.

(He also argued that if someone really wanted to shoot someone, he'd get his fingers on a gun very easily. Now, I know that Finland seems to have lots of guns growing on trees - but to be honest, I wouldn't know where to get a gun from without raising some eyebrows.)
Oh, and in addition to that they're also blaming the kind of music he's been listening to.

I believe the efforts to giving people who need psychological help and psychiatric treatment really need to be stepped up. Be that in Finland, or where I'm from, Germany.

Looking at how many schools don't even have a single psychologist for hundreds or thousands of kids is quite scary. If the students are lucky their school has a very good guidance counselor and they a good class teacher.

if this continues we will after to declare Finland part of the US.
Maybe you think you would have to declare Finland part of the U.S. - however, taking a look at how well the last super power faired when they decided to make Finland part of their domain... Talvisota (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2-ZuZYa1F4), anyone?

Maybe you think you would have to declare Finland part of the U.S. - however, taking a look at how well the last super power faired when they decided to make Finland part of their domain...
They were fools. Force is not the way. The way is to act as if it has always been a part of the US, and bring all other powers to not recognize it in any other quality. Oh, and edit the textbooks.

In the late XXI century, when all education is computerized, it will be even easier to do. People who still remember old textbooks said Finland is a country will think they used to be victims of some joke.

Probably. Must have been the sunshine that made him do it.

Noooo, the lack of sunshine.

Shits.

People own guns in Finland? :(

We don't have many school shootings in Australia because we don't have automatic weapons readily available. A Chinese student who was an avid member of a gun club went crazy and killed a couple of members of his tutorial group at Monash University in Melbourne (where my son was studying at the time). He killed a couple of students before being overpowered by a very brave tutor.
People in cities don't need guns - end of story. It sounded as if this Finnish student was in a country town is that right? I would have thought that Finland was more like Australia than the US with tighter gun restrictions. Is that right?

Shits.

People own guns in Finland? :(
Ya this article says they are the number 3 highest number of gunowners in the world. Behind USA and Yeman. There are a lot of hunters in Finland. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24394658-26040,00.html

Ya this article says they are the number 3 highest number of gunowners in the world. Behind USA and Yeman. There are a lot of hunters in Finland. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24394658-26040,00.html

Thanks for that bit of research sparkelle. Well:

KIDS + GUNS = :eek:

Maybe you think you would have to declare Finland part of the U.S. - however, taking a look at how well the last super power faired when they decided to make Finland part of their domain... Talvisota (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2-ZuZYa1F4), anyone?

just saying school shootings are such an American thing if you don't put a stop to them might as well declare you as a state.

We don't have many school shootings in Australia because we don't have automatic weapons readily available. A Chinese student who was an avid member of a gun club went crazy and killed a couple of members of his tutorial group at Monash University in Melbourne (where my son was studying at the time). He killed a couple of students before being overpowered by a very brave tutor.
People in cities don't need guns - end of story. It sounded as if this Finnish student was in a country town is that right? I would have thought that Finland was more like Australia than the US with tighter gun restrictions. Is that right?

Which was further restricted in 1996 after the Port Arthur Massacre, when PM John Howard really tightned the screws, it is the only time he has worn a bullet proof vest while in Australia when standing in front of 100's of angry gun nuts telling him he was recalling their guns.

We don't have many school shootings in Australia because we don't have automatic weapons readily available. A Chinese student who was an avid member of a gun club went crazy and killed a couple of members of his tutorial group at Monash University in Melbourne (where my son was studying at the time). He killed a couple of students before being overpowered by a very brave tutor.
People in cities don't need guns - end of story. It sounded as if this Finnish student was in a country town is that right? I would have thought that Finland was more like Australia than the US with tighter gun restrictions. Is that right?

they have even looser gun laws then Americans. many people are required to store Automatic Fire arms in their homes while they are in the reserves. something about living next to Russia and being invaded a few times.

We don't have many school shootings in Australia because we don't have automatic weapons readily available. A Chinese student who was an avid member of a gun club went crazy and killed a couple of members of his tutorial group at Monash University in Melbourne (where my son was studying at the time). He killed a couple of students before being overpowered by a very brave tutor.
People in cities don't need guns - end of story. It sounded as if this Finnish student was in a country town is that right? I would have thought that Finland was more like Australia than the US with tighter gun restrictions. Is that right?

Automatic weapons aren't readily available in the US either. The average US citizen is only allowed to own automatic weapons manufactured before 1986, which has decreased supply drastically, and spiked prices (M16s run anywhere from $15k-$20k, MP5s are around $18-$25k, etc). Low availability and high costs mean that usually only collectors own them.

And people in cities need firearms for the same reason people in towns need them (self defense, hunting, target shooting, etc).

Dear GM "Bowling for Columbine" did it for me. I know that many Americans find Mike Moore a little egotistical and he can be pretty selective with his facts but I strongly recommend that documentary. Australia does not have a constitutional right to bear arms as in the US. Hence our crime figures are way down. Yes, people still get shot but nowhere near as many as in the US. There are a significant number of stabbings and machete attacks but for us, the car remains the number one killer.
Maybe in America they were needed by the "Minute Men" to defend revolutionary America from those pesky British but guns are simply dangerous -even the most hardened "when you prise them from my dead fingers' Charlton Heston fan club member would have to acknowledge that.
Our cities are dangerous enough without gun weilding crazies. But I feel that i'm treading along the path of a very, very old argument here.
Anyway, the Bush - stacked Supreme Court recently interpreted the "Right to Bear Arms" amendment very liberally - effectively ending some U.S. states interpretations that restricted bearing them by ordinary citizens in public. This means, alas, that crazies in malls and schools will continue to wreak havoc.
A minutes silence for the current victims and for the victims yet to come.....

Isn't Finland the least most corrupt nation in the world?

My heart goes out to the poor people.

Here's a good overview of Finnish gun politics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Finland)

And people in cities need firearms for the same reason people in towns need them (self defense, hunting, target shooting, etc).

What can you hunt in a city? You don't need guns for self defence, you're more likely to kill a member of your own family.

We don't have many school shootings in Australia because we don't have automatic weapons readily available. A Chinese student who was an avid member of a gun club went crazy and killed a couple of members of his tutorial group at Monash University in Melbourne (where my son was studying at the time). He killed a couple of students before being overpowered by a very brave tutor.
People in cities don't need guns - end of story. It sounded as if this Finnish student was in a country town is that right? I would have thought that Finland was more like Australia than the US with tighter gun restrictions. Is that right?

The only way you can legally have a functional full-automatic weapon as a civilian in Finland is to get a special lisence, which means you'll have to prove the police you're a collector. How easy that is, depends a lot, but there aren't many with such lisences.

they have even looser gun laws then Americans. many people are required to store Automatic Fire arms in their homes while they are in the reserves. something about living next to Russia and being invaded a few times.

Bullshit, see above. I don't think the laws are too loose here either. The school shooters (Auvinen, Saari) would both have got legal weapons no matter how tight the laws were, if not talking of a complete ban. No criminal record and all that jazz.

And you will not be granted a lisence to carry a firearm for self defence out here. If someone has threatened to kill you, maybe, but most likely it's just a restraining order and that's it.

What can you hunt in a city? You don't need guns for self defence, you're more likely to kill a member of your own family.

Yeah, there is no NEED for them in cities. And neither is there in the country. We could just get the army to shoot the deer to control the population. But then again, there is no need for orange juice, pool tables or coffee either (well, banning the last one would indeed cause a revolution here). But still many people prefer having them. And so is it with guns. Shooting targets. Everyone doesn't shoot targets so they could shoot better if they had to shoot a human (and doing it for that reason is quite sick IMO). Nope. Most do it because it's fun. Just like playing pool or drinking coffee.

Dear GM "Bowling for Columbine" did it for me. I know that many Americans find Mike Moore a little egotistical and he can be pretty selective with his facts but I strongly recommend that documentary. Australia does not have a constitutional right to bear arms as in the US. Hence our crime figures are way down. Yes, people still get shot but nowhere near as many as in the US. There are a significant number of stabbings and machete attacks but for us, the car remains the number one killer.
Maybe in America they were needed by the "Minute Men" to defend revolutionary America from those pesky British but guns are simply dangerous -even the most hardened "when you prise them from my dead fingers' Charlton Heston fan club member would have to acknowledge that.
Our cities are dangerous enough without gun weilding crazies. But I feel that i'm treading along the path of a very, very old argument here.
Anyway, the Bush - stacked Supreme Court recently interpreted the "Right to Bear Arms" amendment very liberally - effectively ending some U.S. states interpretations that restricted bearing them by ordinary citizens in public. This means, alas, that crazies in malls and schools will continue to wreak havoc.
A minutes silence for the current victims and for the victims yet to come.....

I dislike Michael Moore, because of his less than honest twisting of words and facts, and selective editing to cut multiple scenes together to make a single scene, which is not representative of any of the individual scenes. The facts that he's arrogant and egotistical are just two more reasons why I dislike him.

Firearm use can be dangerous if done either with negligence or malice, but a firearm is an inanimate object.

As I'm not sure you're aware, any private organization can bar carrying a firearm on their private property (like a mall, restaurant, etc). Also, most schools bar firearms on their premises.

What can you hunt in a city? You don't need guns for self defence, you're more likely to kill a member of your own family.

My uncle lives in a city. He goes out to state approved land to hunt. And as to your "assertion", you'll need to provide proof.

Hey GM! Adunbar is English. Like Australia, they have pretty tough gun laws. Hence, young crims often do nasty things with knives.

Here's some interesting proof of homicides:
Showing latest available data. Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)
#1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people
#26 India: 0.0344083 per 1,000 people
#27 Yemen: 0.0336276 per 1,000 people
#28 Dominica: 0.0289733 per 1,000 people
#29 Azerbaijan: 0.0285642 per 1,000 people
#30 Finland: 0.0283362 per 1,000 people
#31 Slovakia: 0.0263303 per 1,000 people
#32 Romania: 0.0250784 per 1,000 people
#33 Portugal: 0.0233769 per 1,000 people
#34 Malaysia: 0.0230034 per 1,000 people
#35 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0229829 per 1,000 people
#36 Mauritius: 0.021121 per 1,000 people
#37 Hungary: 0.0204857 per 1,000 people
#38 Korea, South: 0.0196336 per 1,000 people
#39 Slovenia: 0.0179015 per 1,000 people
#40 France: 0.0173272 per 1,000 people
#41 Czech Republic: 0.0169905 per 1,000 people
#42 Iceland: 0.0168499 per 1,000 people
#43 Australia: 0.0150324 per 1,000 people
#44 Canada: 0.0149063 per 1,000 people
#45 Chile: 0.014705 per 1,000 people
#46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
#47 Italy: 0.0128393 per 1,000 people
#48 Spain: 0.0122456 per 1,000 people
#49 Germany: 0.0116461 per 1,000 people
#50 Tunisia: 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#51 Netherlands: 0.0111538 per 1,000 people
#52 New Zealand: 0.0111524 per 1,000 people
#53 Denmark: 0.0106775 per 1,000 people
#54 Norway: 0.0106684 per 1,000 people
#55 Ireland: 0.00946215 per 1,000 people
#56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia: 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#58 Greece: 0.0075928 per 1,000 people
#59 Hong Kong: 0.00550804 per 1,000 people
#60 Japan: 0.00499933 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people
Weighted average: 0.1 per 1,000 people
Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

We are quite undeveloped in that matter. Most of our homicides are done after enjoying a fair amount of beer or vodka, and using a puukko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puukko), axe, broken bottle or similar more or less improvised weapon. And even when using guns, we use .22, not real ones.

But then again, if you get killed, does it really make any difference if it's done using a cruise missile or a pillow?

I'd choose the pillow. You can see it coming!

My uncle lives in a city. He goes out to state approved land to hunt. And as to your "assertion", you'll need to provide proof.

I'll find it in a sec, but I read that 31% of people killed in the US by guns were in the immediate family of the person who pulled the trigger.

I'd choose the pillow. You can see it coming!

But in the end, you do get killed anyways, right?

Then again, we could take this on to the level that who cares if I kill someone, they'd die anyways. But let's be reasonable and only kill people who are asking for it.

I think this is the first school shooting I've read about where the shooter actually survived.
Nah, he died.

Anyway, aye, sad. Not much one can really do about it. Although the Finnish Police's response to the killer possibly being in the school "oh that means we can't storm it" was sort of confusing.

He's from Jarvenpaa, this was in Kahuaoki.(sp?)

Kauhajoki! It's Kauhajoki! And yes, I'm from Järvenpää(with umlauts) The shooting last year happened in Jokela, it's quite near here. I heard about this when I was in school at bit before 1 PM. Now all flags are at half post and the PM Matti Vanhanen has suggested that gun laws would strictened.

Kauhajoki! It's Kauhajoki! And yes, I'm from Järvenpää(with umlauts) The shooting last year happened in Jokela, it's quite near here. I heard about this when I was in school at bit before 1 PM. Now all flags are at half post and the PM Matti Vanhanen has suggested that gun laws would strictened.

So not only did I have the wrong town but I was in the wrong side of the country completely.

So not only did I have the wrong town but I was in the wrong side of the country completely.

Yeah. Kauhajoki is in Pohjanmaa(another province). I live in Uusimaa, which is in southern Finland.

Nah, he died.

Anyway, aye, sad. Not much one can really do about it. Although the Finnish Police's response to the killer possibly being in the school "oh that means we can't storm it" was sort of confusing.

If you read my other post, you'd see me clarify that.