NationStates Jolt Archive

Instead of hijacking the "Sexism in advertisement" thread, I decided to merit this discussion it's own thread. So the argument is, that being "different" is ok, and sometimes cool. A boy can appear in a Barbie commerical, and he totally won't be picked on to a point where he's playing hangman with a real rope.

Yea....last time I checked, people are assholes. They're idiots and assholes. They will pick on anything and everything that isn't like them. That includes the cripple, the gays, the woman with incredibly short hair (even though I personally like the short hair cut on women) or basically anyone who isn't "normal". Whatever the Hell normal is nowanddays.

I've flew to California seven times for six ear reconstruction surgery, I've had four jaw surgeries, and Hell I even plan to try out the new procedure where they can remove scars with laser. Yes, all in the vain attempt to at least appear normal. Hell I've gotten the BAHA not because it'll allow me to hear better, but because it was smaller than my old hearing aid, plus it could be hidden better.

Being different sucks, being different is what makes your life a living Hell in school and in some places the work place. It affect your personal and professional life.

"But Wilgrove, I know this cool guy who isn't 'normal' and people like him!"

Yea, let me ask ya something, is he white, is he straight, and exactly how is he different? Because if he's one of those idiots who think being punk/goth (no offense to Goths, I like you guys. You were the only one who wern't assholes to me)/emo etc. is different, then guess what. He's not alone, there are other idiots being "different" right along with him.

So for those of you who think being "different" is cool, how? Also, tell me how you are "different".

They will pick on anything and everything that isn't like them.

....so, in short, people are going to get picked on no matter what, huh? Say, for example, whether they were in a Barbie commercial or not?

....so, in short, people are going to get picked on no matter what, huh? Say, for example, whether they were in a Barbie commercial or not?

If you had a son, would you really want him to appear in a Barbie commerical, knowing that his social life is pretty much going to be shot to Hell?

I'm really sorry, but your OP rant makes you seem like a person just lost in bitterness. I feel bad for you.

If you want to host a pity party in which you only want to talk about how horrible life is because of other people, and you don't want to hear about people who had problems and dealt with them or -- heaven forbid! -- were unusual in their social group but did not suffer horribly because of it, then you go do that.

But I stand by my statement in that other thread -- conforming to some kind of a presumed "norm" in order to placate bullies is not the solution to dealing with bullying. The fact that you went through all that torment in order to "at least appear normal" and are still bitter and unhappy speaks to that.

There's a difference between being different and being aesthetically unappealing. Sorry if you happen to be one of the latter.

Of course you can be different and be cool. You seem to have some very understandable hang ups based on the surgeries and things you went through.

But the "assholes" you describe sound like 13 year olds. Being different at 13 is tough but when we're adults we find that all kinds of people can be cool.

This guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vl5vcG9VI is different. Actually he looks and sounds kind of creepy. But he's surrounded by a shedload of people - hipsters no less - hanging on his every move. COOL.

Of course you can be different and be cool. You seem to have some very understandable hang ups based on the surgeries and things you went through.

But the "assholes" you describe sound like 13 year olds. Being different at 13 is tough but when we're adults we find that all kinds of people can be cool.

This guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vl5vcG9VI is different. Actually he looks and sounds kind of creepy. But he's surrounded by a shedload of people - hipsters no less - hanging on his every move. COOL.

Sorry, he's not "different". Those idiots hanging on to him and about to group rape him is just like him.

If you had a son, would you really want him to appear in a Barbie commerical, knowing that his social life is pretty much going to be shot to Hell?
The bolded part is an unfounded assumption. As was pointed out to you in the other thread, YOUR experience is not EVERYONE'S experience. Also, from what you say, your experience is NOTHING like the experience of being in a Barbie commericial. On both those counts, you have no basis for asserting that a boy who does a Barbie commercial will have his social life shot to hell.

If you had a son, would you really want him to appear in a Barbie commerical, knowing that his social life is pretty much going to be shot to Hell?

I don't "know" anything of the sort. Further, if I ever have a son, genetics suggest that he will probably have an IQ well above average, and thus will already be a target for bullies due to being a "nerd." Clearly, I and all other high-IQ people should not reproduce, in order to spare our potential children this torment. :rolleyes:

Willy, you're wallowing. Suck it up and get on with your life.

Also, "stifle" has only one f.

I don't "know" anything of the sort. Further, if I ever have a son, genetics suggest that he will probably have an IQ well above average, and thus will already be a target for bullies due to being a "nerd." Clearly, I and all other high-IQ people should not reproduce, in order to spare our potential children this torment. :rolleyes:

Yea, you're normal. Look, if you want to send your son through that kind of Hell because you want him to break some quasi barrier involving "Gender roles", then before the Director yells "Action", I want you to at least tell him that his social life will be shot to Hell, he will be picked on, and he'll most likely want to kill himself afterwards.

Don't feed him the bullshit about how everything is going to be nothing but rainbow and kitten farts.

Sorry, he's not "different". Those idiots hanging on to him and about to group rape him is just like him.

Sorry, I forgot we were defining "different" as "a freakish anomaly" and "cool" as "cool to seven year old bullies". Of course you're right. Freakish anomalies aren't cool to seven year old bullies.

As adults we aren't shoved into some class. We can find people who like us. Sorry if that doesn't square with the pity session you've planned.

The bolded part is an unfounded assumption. As was pointed out to you in the other thread, YOUR experience is not EVERYONE'S experience. Also, from what you say, your experience is NOTHING like the experience of being in a Barbie commericial. On both those counts, you have no basis for asserting that a boy who does a Barbie commercial will have his social life shot to hell.

So I guess Matthew Shepard was beaten and left to die tied to a fence post because he was wearing the wrong shirt. It had nothing to do with him being openly gay in a conservative town filled with rednecks.

Sorry, I forgot we were defining "different" as "a freakish anomaly" and "cool" as "cool to seven year old bullies". Of course you're right. Freakish anomalies aren't cool to seven year old bullies.

As adults we aren't shoved into some class. We can find people who like us. Sorry if that doesn't square with the pity session you've planned.

Oh please, even as adults we are shoved into class. You have the rich people, the pretty people, the normies, you have the rednecks, etc. Everyone, in every age of life, in every social setting is shoved into classes.

Don't bother with this Wilgrove, you will get the talk how prevention is not a good idea, which is why there are all these people on here who don't think we should wear seatbelts because it is not up to us to protect ourselves because other people should not be crashing into you and so we we shouldn't wear our seatbelts.

I was labelled a bad parent by some of these people because I considered moving my son to another school because the school was doing jack all about a group of kids bullying my son and a few others, and so instead of sending him there to continue being tormented everyday send him to a safer environment, as all other things instances weren't working such as punishment, trying to get the kids a bit more resilient etc. So don't bother Wlgrove both you and the people against you are going to continue to bash your head against a brick wall.

And yes school punishments are very weak, if they were stronger than half the shit I did at school I would never have even done, but as the fun I got out of not following the rules outweighed the punishment (such as picking up 50 papers) I continued to act up.

Yea, you're normal. Look, if you want to send your son through that kind of Hell because you want him to break some quasi barrier involving "Gender roles", then before the Director yells "Action", I want you to at least tell him that his social life will be shot to Hell, he will be picked on, and he'll most likely want to kill himself afterwards.

Don't feed him the bullshit about how everything is going to be nothing but rainbow and kitten farts.

You're starting to cross the line. You need to relax. Society can shit on anyone at any time. You laugh at it, you shake your head, you move on. Your foray into this bitter high-school-diary persona is really, really unimpressive and worse yet, you're only damaging your own point.

Oh please, even as adults we are shoved into class. You have the rich people, the pretty people, the normies, you have the rednecks, etc. Everyone, in every age of life, in every social setting is shoved into classes.

I meant a literal class. As in being restricted to a group of 20 people who will judge you and give you wedgies if you aren't good at sports.

Kids are cruel. But smarts soon win over athleticism in terms of doing well in life.

So I guess Matthew Shepard was beaten and left to die tied to a fence post because he was wearing the wrong shirt. It had nothing to do with him being openly gay in a conservative town filled with rednecks.

The fact that you're bringing Matthew Shepard into this is just abhorrent. Do you even know the whole story there? Is this a regular occurrence, or was it just a perfect storm of assholes? I am begging you to lay off this jeremiad you're on and have a drink.

So I guess Matthew Shepard was beaten and left to die tied to a fence post because he was wearing the wrong shirt. It had nothing to do with him being openly gay in a conservative town filled with rednecks.
And your answer to that crime would be that Matthew Shepard brought it on himself for daring to be openly gay in a conservative town full of rednecks. He should have tried to act hetero and rednecky in order to "at least appear normal."

You simply refuse to acknowledge that you are giving bullies, bigots and abusers all the power by your arguments. You are advocating rewarding them for being bullies, bigots and abusers by letting them dictate how others behave or else risk a beating or murder.

Well, I'm sorry, but I say the ones who are not "normal" are the ones who grow up thinking that it's okay to attack people just because they are different. That kind of hate-based violence is a pathology, in my opinion, and a society that supports and condones it is a sick society. THAT kind of behavior is what needs to be changed by education and behavior modification and social/media messages that attack the underlying assumptions that justify it. Anyone who gets past age 7 still acting out that way needs an intervention, immediately.

What they DON'T need is the rewarding reinforcement of people like you pissing all over other people who refuse to arrange their lives around fear of bullies, just because you apparently can't find a way to cope with your own personal misfortunes. I choose not to be sacrificed on the altar of your bitterness.

Also, personally, I find it distateful that you would use crimes like a brutal gay-bashing murder and (in the other thread) the Columbine shootings as props in your "look at how bad my life has been" act.

Yea, you're normal. Look, if you want to send your son through that kind of Hell because you want him to break some quasi barrier involving "Gender roles", then before the Director yells "Action", I want you to at least tell him that his social life will be shot to Hell, he will be picked on, and he'll most likely want to kill himself afterwards.

Don't feed him the bullshit about how everything is going to be nothing but rainbow and kitten farts.

Good grief, would you stop beating up giant strawmen for a few seconds?

I'm not sure by what standard I am "normal" - I was a child prodigy whom my elementary school teachers mostly were a little afraid of and whom my classmates beat the crap out of on a near-daily basis. On one occasion, I ended up with a concussion after a group of kids shoved me down in the school parking lot, sat on me, and kicked me repeatedly in the head. I don't believe I've ever suggested that many kids aren't little bastards. I simply disagree with your assumption that the proper way to deal with this is to demand that everyone try to conform to the little bastards' views of how they should be. Kids get picked on for wearing glasses, for having dorky haircuts, for getting good grades, for getting bad grades, for being tall, for being short, for being fat, for being skinny, for EXISTING. That's life, and if you go through life doing nothing but desperately trying to avoid being picked on, then frankly I feel very sorry for you, because that's a heck of a sad way to live.

Instead of hijacking the "Sexism in advertisement" thread, I decided to merit this discussion it's own thread. So the argument is, that being "different" is ok, and sometimes cool. A boy can appear in a Barbie commerical, and he totally won't be picked on to a point where he's playing hangman with a real rope.

Yea....last time I checked, people are assholes. They're idiots and assholes. They will pick on anything and everything that isn't like them. That includes the cripple, the gays, the woman with incredibly short hair (even though I personally like the short hair cut on women) or basically anyone who isn't "normal". Whatever the Hell normal is nowanddays.

I've flew to California seven times for six ear reconstruction surgery, I've had four jaw surgeries, and Hell I even plan to try out the new procedure where they can remove scars with laser. Yes, all in the vain attempt to at least appear normal. Hell I've gotten the BAHA not because it'll allow me to hear better, but because it was smaller than my old hearing aid, plus it could be hidden better.

Being different sucks, being different is what makes your life a living Hell in school and in some places the work place. It affect your personal and professional life.

"But Wilgrove, I know this cool guy who isn't 'normal' and people like him!"

Yea, let me ask ya something, is he white, is he straight, and exactly how is he different? Because if he's one of those idiots who think being punk/goth (no offense to Goths, I like you guys. You were the only one who wern't assholes to me)/emo etc. is different, then guess what. He's not alone, there are other idiots being "different" right along with him.

So for those of you who think being "different" is cool, how? Also, tell me how you are "different".

My brother is transgendered. During my Uncle's 50th birthday party, there were actually five generations of family members gathered there. My brother wore a chinese dress and pigtails, and served drinks at the bar. Only one great aunt even gave him a second look that night...and it's because she's from Winnipeg, and this is only the second time she's met him....her....as an adult.

I am not talking about the most sophisticated of people. My family is comprised of (with the exception of myself, and two of my aunts who finally have post-secondary degrees) working class, rural, Prairie people...with all the rampant racism/sexism/conservatism that entails. He didn't work hard on them, he didn't sit down and have hearts to hearts with them...he didn't even bother to notice when they had trouble with it at the beginning. And now they don't. They honestly do not care.

I have seen the most bizarre, perverse and hateful of people turn their lives around and get a sense of perspective. I have seen good people widen their own narrow horizons when faced with something new. They might not seek it out, but they are not unequal to the task.

Being 'different' is not for everyone. But neither is it really a choice. You either are, or you aren't. The choice lies in deciding whether or not you're going to allow yourself to be that person, or if you're going to go into hiding. I fault no one their decision...but I recognise that it's the people who refuse to hide who end up changing minds.

I don't know why children are so prone to picking on those considered outside the norm, for whatever reason they land on. It seems an odd thing. Looks seem so important to children and you can often see entire social change in a school as puberty hits and previously pretty and popular kids become outcasts for not adolescing well, and vice versa.

We seem very focused on creating 'us' and 'them', which is probably an extension of 'me' and 'everyone else'.

Sirmomo1 is right, it's not necessarily that bullies don't exist as you get older, it's that you have far greater ability to choose your social circle, you're not confined by the boundaries of a school.

I don't know why children are so prone to picking on those considered outside the norm,

I think raising kids in the norm is the more tragic of the two situations, to be honest.

So I guess Matthew Shepard was beaten and left to die tied to a fence post because he was wearing the wrong shirt. It had nothing to do with him being openly gay in a conservative town filled with rednecks.

And of course by the logic you seem to be using it was HIS fault, not the rednecks.

And of course by the logic you seem to be using it was HIS fault, not the rednecks.

I could see how you could make that statement, but actually no. It wasn't his fault. Because you can't choose to be gay or straight. You can however choose to appear in a Barbie commerical or not. You can choose to get reconstruction surgery or not. You can either choose to fight the bullies, or let them win and become a bitter cynic. I've chosen to get the surgery, fight the bullies (Assault on a handicap is a felony in NC, Yay) and I still became a bitter cynic.

I just now saw a woman fighting bad guys with her boobies....Oh, this is Adult Swim, nevermind.

I could see how you could make that statement, but actually no. It wasn't his fault. Because you can't choose to be gay or straight. You can however choose to appear in a Barbie commerical or not. You can choose to get reconstruction surgery or not. You can either choose to fight the bullies, or let them win and become a bitter cynic. I've chosen to get the surgery, fight the bullies (Assault on a handicap is a felony in NC, Yay) and I still became a bitter cynic.

Which means that the bitter cynicism is your own fault.

I think raising kids in the norm is the more tragic of the two situations, to be honest.

I think I agree if I read you right - I think being a parent completely changes your opinion on these things, to understand that it's all very easy to say you believe in difference but when it's your kid...

Takes either a brave parent or an insensitive parent to remain indifferent when it affects their child.

Which means that the bitter cynicism is your own fault.

I never said it wasn't. My whole point in the OP was that being "different" isn't what its all cracked up to be. It's not what the media protrays it to be, it's not what the school guidance counsler protrays it to be, and it's not what my therapist (a guy who I basically paid $200 an hour to sit on his ass and go "hmm, tell me more and nod.) protrays it to be.

Sirmomo1 is right, it's not necessarily that bullies don't exist as you get older, it's that you have far greater ability to choose your social circle, you're not confined by the boundaries of a school.

There's also the fact that they start receiving actual punishments, such as jail time if they beat the crap out of you.

This thread just reminded me of a very good song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89c3hWx3RQ).

So let that be a lesson parents: if you purposefully try to make your kids different, be prepared to go toe-to-toe with them in a bar fight someday.

I could see how you could make that statement, but actually no. It wasn't his fault. Because you can't choose to be gay or straight. You can however choose to appear in a Barbie commerical or not. You can choose to get reconstruction surgery or not. You can either choose to fight the bullies, or let them win and become a bitter cynic. I've chosen to get the surgery, fight the bullies (Assault on a handicap is a felony in NC, Yay) and I still became a bitter cynic.

Well, I'm glad YOU'RE rich enough to "choose" reconstructive surgery . . .

One could argue that Shepard, while he could not choose not be gay, could choose not to be out of the closet. By your previous arguments by CHOOSING to be out of the closet instead of hiding his sexual orientation he brought it on himself. Is that really the argument you want to make? Different is bad and those who are different deserve what they get?

I don't know why children are so prone to picking on those considered outside the norm, for whatever reason they land on. It seems an odd thing. Looks seem so important to children and you can often see entire social change in a school as puberty hits and previously pretty and popular kids become outcasts for not adolescing well, and vice versa.

We seem very focused on creating 'us' and 'them', which is probably an extension of 'me' and 'everyone else'.

Sirmomo1 is right, it's not necessarily that bullies don't exist as you get older, it's that you have far greater ability to choose your social circle, you're not confined by the boundaries of a school.
Up until about age 2 to 2.5, it's normal for kids to bite each other, too.* "Us v. them", "me v. you" is the most basic, animalistic level of human behavior, the sorting out of tiers in the social pack, the establishment of self in relation to the group. The whole point of having a human brain and using it to build civilization is to get past those basic impulses in order to expand the group to include the greatest number of contributive individuals and to move from "me am king of hill" to a trend toward tolerance and cooperation for the greater good.

In normal development and normal socialization, as a child grows and develops a fuller sense of self, he/she should lose that impulse to express and establish the self with physical acting out/violence. (Even the most bigoted societies are more tolerant at the adult level than little kids are among each other.) If that does not happen, then there is a serious problem that requires intervention.

If a child is still biting by age 3, that's a problem. If a child is still physically attacking other children by age 8, that is a problem. And the problem does not originate with the kids who are getting bitten and beaten up.


* I know several people who have worked in early childhood education. A few friends have worked directly with children, and my mom works in the legal department of a company that runs hundreds of toddler and infant daycare and early education centers in three countries. Their experiences have only reinforced my personal decision never to have children. Yeesh.

I never said it wasn't. My whole point in the OP was that being "different" isn't what its all cracked up to be. It's not what the media protrays it to be, it's not what the school guidance counsler protrays it to be, and it's not what my therapist (a guy who I basically paid $200 an hour to sit on his ass and go "hmm, tell me more and nod.) protrays it to be.

Okay, let's get some things straight.

There's being different and there's trying to piss off the squares. So many people that I've met, known or taught claim they get picked on for being different, when the problem really is more along the lines of someone wanting to set themselves apart, finding that they can't, and therefore trying even harder to get the attention that they wanted. I'm not saying it's ever all the victim's fault, but I've seen more than a few incidents that the victim provoked or at least to which they didn't react sensibly.

Second, NOTHING is as the media portrays it. The "weird cool" kids on TV are scripted characters, not real people (I actually had to type that...).

Third, guidance counselors are perhaps the most overworked and under-appreciated education professionals out there. If I were one in a school of 1600 kids, and I was responsible for all kids in the "A through G" cohort, lots of stuff would fall through the cracks on my watch, too.

Finally, YOU didn't pay $200/hour for a psychologist. Unless the bill came to YOU and YOU wrote the check. Resistance to a trained professional is nothing new, but they're not magicians and they're not mind-readers. If you clam up, or answer tersely, how else are they going to reply but "tell me more about that"? I went through the same recalcitrance. My mother sent me to a handful of therapists, and I resisted them all. Looking back, I feel bad for not being more open and just talking about what was bothering me. It might have kept me from going through by painful experience what I might have been able to talk through in a much safer setting. I also feel bad for wasting my mother's co-payments. But, you live, you learn.

I don't know why I give a shit, actually, except that I recognize your anger.

Well, I'm glad YOU'RE rich enough to "choose" reconstructive surgery . . .

One could argue that Shepard, while he could not choose not be gay, could choose not to be out of the closet. By your previous arguments by CHOOSING to be out of the closet instead of hiding his sexual orientation he brought it on himself. Is that really the argument you want to make? Different is bad and those who are different deserve what they get?

First off, stop putting words in my mouth, you're not a mind reader, so stop it.

Second, he didn't deserve to be killed for being out of the closet. I'm sure he knew the risk of being openly gay, and I appauld him for making that choice. No one deserves to get what they got for being "different". It seems like you're the one who's making that argument, and just trying to get me to say it so you can say "AH HA SEE!"

I never said it wasn't. My whole point in the OP was that being "different" isn't what its all cracked up to be. It's not what the media protrays it to be, it's not what the school guidance counsler protrays it to be, and it's not what my therapist (a guy who I basically paid $200 an hour to sit on his ass and go "hmm, tell me more and nod.) protrays it to be.
Who ever said it was cracked up to be anything?

This whole thing started only because Poliwanacraca questioned why advertisers choose always to reinforce gender and other stereotypes to push products, and you were the one who started declaring that we were all deliberately setting kids up for daily abuse, lying to them, steering them towards suicide and revenge murder.

This is your melodrama, W, and it's a one-person play.

First off, stop putting words in my mouth, you're not a mind reader, so stop it.

Second, he didn't deserve to be killed for being out of the closet. I'm sure he knew the risk of being openly gay, and I appauld him for making that choice. No one deserves to get what they got for being "different". It seems like you're the one who's making that argument, and just trying to get me to say it so you can say "AH HA SEE!"

How is using your own stated logic putting words in your mouth?

ROFLMAO!

Ok, is anyone else getting the "Ebony Gay Dating" banner on this thread?

Wow....can't get anymore different than that. *dies laughing*

Dude, kids always get made fun of for anything.

When I was a kid, I got made fun of for being a bit of a cry baby and having buck teeth. I'm sure that being shy to the point of being socially crippled didn't help either. Eventually there were braces, but the social ineptitude was still there and I got made fun of most of the way though high school (maybe throughout it, but at some point I stopped paying attention)... all this despite being relatively normal.

Further, who the fuck pays attention to the kids who are actually in the commercials? If I was a kid in a stupid commercial, and my classmate asked me if that was me, I'd deny it. Although any kid that looks like the kid on commercial x is going to get made fun of, especially if they're the opposite gender (i.e. my youngest sister looked like the Welch's grape juice boy for a while).

This might well be tl:dr for some people but I think it has some relevance...

'Plain old untrendy troubles and emotions'
David Foster Wallace, who died last week, was the most brilliant American writer of his generation. In a speech, published here for the first time, he reflects on the difficulties of daily life and 'making it to 30, or maybe 50, without wanting to shoot yourself in the head'

There are these two young fish swimming along, and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says, "Morning, boys, how's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes, "What the hell is water?"

If you're worried that I plan to present myself here as the wise old fish explaining what water is, please don't be. I am not the wise old fish. The immediate point of the fish story is that the most obvious, ubiquitous, important realities are often the ones that are the hardest to see and talk about. Stated as an English sentence, of course, this is just a banal platitude - but the fact is that, in the day-to-day trenches of adult existence, banal platitudes can have life-or-death importance. That may sound like hyperbole, or abstract nonsense. So let's get concrete ...

A huge percentage of the stuff that I tend to be automatically certain of is, it turns out, totally wrong and deluded. Here's one example of the utter wrongness of something I tend to be automatically sure of: everything in my own immediate experience supports my deep belief that I am the absolute centre of the universe, the realest, most vivid and important person in existence. We rarely talk about this sort of natural, basic self-centredness, because it's so socially repulsive, but it's pretty much the same for all of us, deep down. It is our default setting, hard-wired into our boards at birth. Think about it: there is no experience you've had that you were not at the absolute centre of. The world as you experience it is right there in front of you, or behind you, to the left or right of you, on your TV, or your monitor, or whatever. Other people's thoughts and feelings have to be communicated to you somehow, but your own are so immediate, urgent, real - you get the idea. But please don't worry that I'm getting ready to preach to you about compassion or other-directedness or the so-called "virtues". This is not a matter of virtue - it's a matter of my choosing to do the work of somehow altering or getting free of my natural, hard-wired default setting, which is to be deeply and literally self-centred, and to see and interpret everything through this lens of self.

By way of example, let's say it's an average day, and you get up in the morning, go to your challenging job, and you work hard for nine or ten hours, and at the end of the day you're tired, and you're stressed out, and all you want is to go home and have a good supper and maybe unwind for a couple of hours and then hit the rack early because you have to get up the next day and do it all again. But then you remember there's no food at home - you haven't had time to shop this week, because of your challenging job - and so now, after work, you have to get in your car and drive to the supermarket. It's the end of the workday, and the traffic's very bad, so getting to the store takes way longer than it should, and when you finally get there the supermarket is very crowded, because of course it's the time of day when all the other people with jobs also try to squeeze in some grocery shopping, and the store's hideously, fluorescently lit, and infused with soul-killing Muzak or corporate pop, and it's pretty much the last place you want to be, but you can't just get in and quickly out: you have to wander all over the huge, overlit store's crowded aisles to find the stuff you want, and you have to manoeuvre your junky cart through all these other tired, hurried people with carts, and of course there are also the glacially slow old people and the spacey people and the kids who all block the aisle and you have to grit your teeth and try to be polite as you ask them to let you by, and eventually, finally, you get all your supper supplies, except now it turns out there aren't enough checkout lanes open even though it's the end-of-the-day rush, so the checkout line is incredibly long, which is stupid and infuriating, but you can't take your fury out on the frantic lady working the register.

Anyway, you finally get to the checkout line's front, and pay for your food, and wait to get your cheque or card authenticated by a machine, and then get told to "Have a nice day" in a voice that is the absolute voice of death, and then you have to take your creepy flimsy plastic bags of groceries in your cart through the crowded, bumpy, littery parking lot, and try to load the bags in your car in such a way that everything doesn't fall out of the bags and roll around in the trunk on the way home, and then you have to drive all the way home through slow, heavy, SUV-intensive rush-hour traffic, etc, etc.

The point is that petty, frustrating crap like this is exactly where the work of choosing comes in. Because the traffic jams and crowded aisles and long checkout lines give me time to think, and if I don't make a conscious decision about how to think and what to pay attention to, I'm going to be pissed and miserable every time I have to food-shop, because my natural default setting is the certainty that situations like this are really all about me, about my hungriness and my fatigue and my desire to just get home, and it's going to seem, for all the world, like everybody else is just in my way, and who are all these people in my way? And look at how repulsive most of them are and how stupid and cow-like and dead-eyed and nonhuman they seem here in the checkout line, or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cell phones in the middle of the line, and look at how deeply unfair this is: I've worked really hard all day and I'm starved and tired and I can't even get home to eat and unwind because of all these stupid goddamn people.

Or if I'm in a more socially conscious form of my default setting, I can spend time in the end-of-the-day traffic jam being angry and disgusted at all the huge, stupid, lane-blocking SUVs and Hummers and V12 pickup trucks burning their wasteful, selfish, 40-gallon tanks of gas, and I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles driven by the ugliest, most inconsiderate and aggressive drivers, who are usually talking on cell phones as they cut people off in order to get just 20 stupid feet ahead in a traffic jam, and I can think about how our children's children will despise us for wasting all the future's fuel and probably screwing up the climate, and how spoiled and stupid and disgusting we all are, and how it all just sucks ...

If I choose to think this way, fine, lots of us do - except that thinking this way tends to be so easy and automatic it doesn't have to be a choice. Thinking this way is my natural default setting. It's the automatic, unconscious way that I experience the boring, frustrating, crowded parts of adult life when I'm operating on the automatic, unconscious belief that I am the centre of the world and that my immediate needs and feelings are what should determine the world's priorities. The thing is that there are obviously different ways to think about these kinds of situations. In this traffic, all these vehicles stuck and idling in my way: it's not impossible that some of these people in SUVs have been in horrible car accidents in the past and now find driving so traumatic that their therapist has all but ordered them to get a huge, heavy SUV so they can feel safe enough to drive; or that the Hummer that just cut me off is maybe being driven by a father whose little child is hurt or sick in the seat next to him, and he's trying to rush to the hospital, and he's in a much bigger, more legitimate hurry than I am - it is actually I who am in his way.

Again, please don't think that I'm giving you moral advice, or that I'm saying you're "supposed to" think this way, or that anyone expects you to just automatically do it, because it's hard, it takes will and mental effort, and if you're like me, some days you won't be able to do it, or you just flat-out won't want to. But most days, if you're aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead-eyed, over-made-up lady who just screamed at her little child in the checkout line - maybe she's not usually like this; maybe she's been up three straight nights holding the hand of her husband who's dying of bone cancer, or maybe this very lady is the low-wage clerk at the Motor Vehicles Dept who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a nightmarish red-tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness. Of course, none of this is likely, but it's also not impossible - it just depends on what you want to consider. If you're automatically sure that you know what reality is and who and what is really important - if you want to operate on your default setting - then you, like me, will not consider possibilities that aren't pointless and annoying. But if you've really learned how to think, how to pay attention, then you will know you have other options. It will be within your power to experience a crowded, loud, slow, consumer-hell-type situation as not only meaningful but sacred, on fire with the same force that lit the stars - compassion, love, the sub-surface unity of all things. Not that that mystical stuff's necessarily true: the only thing that's capital-T True is that you get to decide how you're going to try to see it. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't. You get to decide what to worship.

Because here's something else that's true. In the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And an outstanding reason for choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship - be it JC or Allah, be it Yahweh or the Wiccan mother-goddess or the Four Noble Truths or some infrangible set of ethical principles - is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things - if they are where you tap real meaning in life - then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you. On one level, we all know this stuff already - it's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, bromides, epigrams, parables: the skeleton of every great story. The trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness. Worship power - you will feel weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to keep the fear at bay. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart - you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out.

The insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful; it is that they are unconscious. They are default settings. They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing. And the world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the world of men and money and power hums along quite nicely on the fuel of fear and contempt and frustration and craving and the worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom to be lords of our own tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the centre of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talked about in the great outside world of winning and achieving and displaying. The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day. That is real freedom. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the "rat race" - the constant gnawing sense of having had and lost some infinite thing.

I know that this stuff probably doesn't sound fun and breezy or grandly inspirational. What it is, so far as I can see, is the truth with a whole lot of rhetorical bullshit pared away. Obviously, you can think of it whatever you wish. But please don't dismiss it as some finger-wagging Dr Laura sermon. None of this is about morality, or religion, or dogma, or big fancy questions of life after death. The capital-T Truth is about life before death. It is about making it to 30, or maybe 50, without wanting to shoot yourself in the head. It is about simple awareness - awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, that we have to keep reminding ourselves, over and over: "This is water, this is water."

· Adapted from the commencement speech the author gave to a graduating class at Kenyon College, Ohio

First off, stop putting words in my mouth, you're not a mind reader, so stop it.

I'm extrapolating logical statements from previous arguments you've made. There is a difference between that and putting words in your mouth. If there is a discrepancy between what I perceive you to have said, evidenced by my stretching your arguments to a point that seems a logical extension to me but abhorrent to you, then explain where I went wrong instead of leaping down my throat.

What is the difference between choosing to be openly gay and choosing to allow your Barbie loving son his dream of appearing in a Barbie commercial?

ROFLMAO!

Ok, is anyone else getting the "Ebony Gay Dating" banner on this thread?

Wow....can't get anymore different than that. *dies laughing*

You poor sheltered person . . .

This might well be tl:dr for some people but I think it has some relevance...


David Foster Wallace, who died last week, was the most brilliant American writer of his generation.

Who?

Sorry. I just hate these sorts of ridiculous statements.

What is the difference between choosing to be openly gay and choosing to allow your Barbie loving son his dream of appearing in a Barbie commercial?

The difference is that 1. You can't choose whether or not to be gay as I have pointed out. Also, alot of gays are eventually outed, either they out themselves or someone else does. There's very little choice for the gays.

However, you can choose to appear in a Barbie commerical, you have more freedom in that choice.

Who?

Sorry. I just hate these sorts of ridiculous statements.

I didn't write it, it's from the article header so take it up with them.

Quit bullying me.

I never said it wasn't. My whole point in the OP was that being "different" isn't what its all cracked up to be. It's not what the media protrays it to be, it's not what the school guidance counsler protrays it to be, and it's not what my therapist (a guy who I basically paid $200 an hour to sit on his ass and go "hmm, tell me more and nod.) protrays it to be.
Either you suck at therapy or your therapist sucks.

The difference is that 1. You can't choose whether or not to be gay as I have pointed out. Also, a lot of gays are eventually outed, either they out themselves or someone else does. There's very little choice for the gays.

However, you can choose to appear in a Barbie commercial, you have more freedom in that choice.

So people who make unpopular choices deserve what they get? Again leaving aside the fact that being out is a choice (if someone tries to out you and they don't have photographic evidence, such as you going down on another guy, you can deny it) do you really want to argue that people should be allowed to persecute other for their religion or lack thereof?

So people who make unpopular choices deserve what they get? Again leaving aside the fact that being out is a choice (if someone tries to out you and they don't have photographic evidence, such as you going down on another guy, you can deny it) do you really want to argue that people should be allowed to persecute other for their religion or lack thereof?

*sigh* God you're an idiot.

Did you not see the post where I said that people who are different don't deserve what they get? Or did you just skim over that so you can keep bringing up the same question I already answered?

The difference is that 1. You can't choose whether or not to be gay as I have pointed out. Also, alot of gays are eventually outed, either they out themselves or someone else does. There's very little choice for the gays.

However, you can choose to appear in a Barbie commerical, you have more freedom in that choice.
A freedom you would take away by declaring that letting a boy do that guarantees a horrible life. In other words, if a boy chooses to appear in a Barbie commercial, you say he is ruining his life and should not do it because bullies won't like it. And I suppose if he chooses to like a different kind of music from the other kids in his school, he shouldn't listen to it, because other kids might not like it, and if he chooses to dress differently or have different recreational interests, he should hide that, too, and dress and act in a way that the bullies will approve of?

As far as I can see the only reason "different" kids have a tough time of it is because they are caught between the bullies and people like you.

This might well be tl:dr for some people but I think it has some relevance...

Thank you for posting that.

Question: Should handicapped or ugly people be allowed to have children?

If they do, they're clearly subjecting their offspring to a lifetime of torment and low self esteem and therapy that they'll bitch about and claim doesn't help, but they'll go anyways. I mean, not only might the kid inherit the handicap or hideousness, but if they manage to make friends and have them over, then their friends will see their hideous or deformed parents. Hell, if their parents pick them up from school, or go shopping with the kids... then they'll be bullied in school because of their parents' physical appearance.

Dude, kids always get made fun of for anything.
. . .

Further, who the fuck pays attention to the kids who are actually in the commercials? If I was a kid in a stupid commercial, and my classmate asked me if that was me, I'd deny it. Although any kid that looks like the kid on commercial x is going to get made fun of, especially if they're the opposite gender (i.e. my youngest sister looked like the Welch's grape juice boy for a while).

Yes, Lindsay Lohan was in the movie Parent Trap when she was 13 and her classmate made fun of her for that!

*sigh* God you're an idiot.

Did you not see the post where I said that people who are different don't deserve what they get? Or did you just skim over that so you can keep bringing up the same question I already answered?

Uncalled-for, and wholly flamy. Wilgrove, you've been called on your pity-party and are still looking for anyone but yourself to blame for your mood. Sorry, pal, but life doesn't work that way.

Wilgrove, I find it funny that you are getting pissy about "being different" when you're the one who made a fuss about what makes a man a "real man" last year.

If you're a man, you better act like the Brawny Man.
If you're a woman, and you have a tattoo, you're a slut.

My my, you must hate everyone.

A freedom you would take away by declaring that letting a boy do that guarantees a horrible life. In other words, if a boy chooses to appear in a Barbie commercial, you say he is ruining his life and should not do it because bullies won't like it. And I suppose if he chooses to like a different kind of music from the other kids in his school, he shouldn't listen to it, because other kids might not like it, and if he chooses to dress differently or have different recreational interests, he should hide that, too, and dress and act in a way that the bullies will approve of?

As far as I can see the only reason "different" kids have a tough time of it is because they are caught between the bullies and people like you.

To be fair, I did say that if the son was going to be in a Barbie commerical, he should be made known about the rammification of such a choice. I just didn't agree with the reason for the son to be in the Barbie commerical. I don't really give a rats ass if it breaks some quasi-gender barrier.

Personally I would not have my son appear in a Barbie commerical, and I'd try my best to pursuae him from appearing in one, because of my own experiences. However, if it doesn't work, then I pray he has a better time of dealing with being different than I did.

Wilgrove, I find it funny that you are getting pissy about "being different" when you're the one who made a fuss about what makes a man a "real man" last year.

If you're a man, you better act like the Brawny Man.
If you're a woman, and you have a tattoo, you're a slut.

My my, you must hate everyone.

Likely, but mostly himself, from what I've read.

Wilgrove, I find it funny that you are getting pissy about "being different" when you're the one who made a fuss about what makes a man a "real man" last year.

If you're a man, you better act like the Brawny Man.
If you're a woman, and you have a tattoo, you're a slut.

My my, you must hate everyone.

What, you're just now catching onto that fact?

As for the "Women are slut of they have tattoos. I only implied that if they have the tramp stamp they are. I mean if we're going to bring up everything I've ever said on NSG, let's at least be accurate about it.

Likely, but mostly himself, from what I've read.

Hey self lothing and my demented, twisted drive to perfection got me to where I am today. :D

I'm sure everyone on NSG is beautiful, popular, great at sports, academically competent but not TOO smart, and blends perfectly in every social situation. None of us could ever understand being "different", or the pain associated with it at certain stages of our lives.

Don't you have a blog or a spiral notebook covered in KoRn stickers you can write this in?

Hey self lothing and my demented, twisted drive to perfection got me to where I am today. :D

I see. How proud you must be.

What, you're just now catching onto that fact?
I just find it funny that you trying to stick it to "the man" on one judgmental issue, and being entirely ignorant on other ones.

As for the "Women are slut of they have tattoos. I only implied that if they have the tramp stamp they are. I mean if we're going to bring up everything I've ever said on NSG, let's at least be accurate about it.
If we're going to bring up everything you've ever said on NSG, let's at least use proper spellings and good grammar.

To be fair, I did say that if the son was going to be in a Barbie commerical, he should be made known about the rammification of such a choice. I just didn't agree with the reason for the son to be in the Barbie commerical. I don't really give a rats ass if it breaks some quasi-gender barrier.
So forget the broken barriers then. What if the kid WANTS to do the commercial? What then?

Personally I would not have my son appear in a Barbie commerical, and I'd try my best to pursuae him from appearing in one, because of my own experiences. However, if it doesn't work, then I pray he has a better time of dealing with being different than I did.
If you do that, then you'll just be reinforcing the stereotypes of the bullies who would attack him. You are telling him that bullies have more power over his life than he does, and that you accept that state of affairs. You are undermining his life choices because of your own bitterness. You are giving a strong message that you don't support his choices, you don't like the fact that he is different from other kids. He would be forgiven if he decided that you are not in his corner and that he cannot rely on his parent to back him up if he needs help.

I see. How proud you must be.

I'll let Dr. Cox handle this for me.

“Do you understand that the second you look in the mirror and you’re happy with what you see, baby, you just lost the battle!”

As for the "Women are slut of they have tattoos. I only implied that if they have the tramp stamp they are. I mean if we're going to bring up everything I've ever said on NSG, let's at least be accurate about it.
Women are sluts if they sleep with lots of men. Men who sleep with lots of women, however, are studs.

Neither group has to have tattoos anywhere. Nor does every woman who has such tattoos put out.

I find it funny that someone who bitches about being picked on for his appearance and disability growing up is judging people based on appearance more than anyone else in this thread.

I'll let Dr. Cox handle this for me.

Aside from the fact that having fictional characters dispensing advice completely ignores the fact that the character's words are written by committee, what has that got to do with anything?

Women are sluts if they sleep with lots of men. Men who sleep with lots of women, however, are studs.


Neither group has to have tattoos anywhere. Nor does every woman who has such tattoos put out.

Shh! Willy's solipsism can hear you!

Women are sluts if they sleep with lots of men. Men who sleep with lots of women, however, are studs.


Neither group has to have tattoos anywhere. Nor does every woman who has such tattoos put out.

Don't be silly! My friend the conservative Christian who didn't so much as kiss until she was married may THINK she's not exactly promiscuous, but the rather pretty design on her lower back says otherwise! Who are you going to trust - the actual experience of anyone who's ever met her, or Wilgrove's opinion on her choice of body art, huh? Huh?

Nor does every woman who has such tattoos put out.

:(

stupid post limits...

Aside from the fact that having fictional characters dispensing advice completely ignores the fact that the character's words are written by committee, what has that got to do with anything?

I decided to let you in on my line of thinking.

If a child is still biting by age 3, that's a problem. If a child is still physically attacking other children by age 8, that is a problem. And the problem does not originate with the kids who are getting bitten and beaten up.

I think I only ever bit one person at that age, and it was my mom, when I was teething. She responded by biting me back and I didn't bite anyone after that. It was a good lesson (my mom has never taken a hand to me besides that, and she still feels really awful about it 23 years later, but it did teach me).

In contrast, I got in fistfights until I was 13. :-/ BUT I never started them. I just hit back.

Don't be silly! My friend the conservative Christian who didn't so much as kiss until she was married may THINK she's not exactly promiscuous, but the rather pretty design on her lower back says otherwise! Who are you going to trust - the actual experience of anyone who's ever met her, or Wilgrove's opinion on her choice of body art, huh? Huh?

Wow. That's like asking me if I want a 7oz filet mignon with asparagus and garlic mash OR a kick in the junk and a punch in the throat.

I decided to let you in on my line of thinking.

Is that what you call it?

I decided to let you in on my line of thinking.

Your thinking is that self esteem is bad?

Did you not see the post where I said that people who are different don't deserve what they get? Or did you just skim over that so you can keep bringing up the same question I already answered?

Lets just say that the subtext (and occasionally the text) of some of your other comments seems contradictory to that statement.

You poor sheltered person . . .

Seriously. Black lesbians make up like 40% of Oakland.

*sigh* God you're an idiot.

Did you not see the post where I said that people who are different don't deserve what they get? Or did you just skim over that so you can keep bringing up the same question I already answered?

Right, it's not the victim's fault, it's her/his parents' fault.

Don't be silly! My friend the conservative Christian who didn't so much as kiss until she was married may THINK she's not exactly promiscuous, but the rather pretty design on her lower back says otherwise! Who are you going to trust - the actual experience of anyone who's ever met her, or Wilgrove's opinion on her choice of body art, huh? Huh?

:( It's true. I never used to be a slut in high school. Then I had to have back surgery at 18 and got a tattoo to cover the scar, and now I find myself unable to resist screwing every man in sight.

Seriously. Black lesbians make up like 40% of Oakland.



Right, it's not the victim's fault, it's her/his parents' fault.



:( It's true. I never used to be a slut in high school. Then I had to have back surgery at 18 and got a tattoo to cover the scar, and now I find myself unable to resist screwing every man in sight.

Shh! Don't confuse Wilgrove with examples that shatter his complacent world view -- he's angry-young-man enough already!

If you do that, then you'll just be reinforcing the stereotypes of the bullies who would attack him. You are telling him that bullies have more power over his life than he does, and that you accept that state of affairs. You are undermining his life choices because of your own bitterness. You are giving a strong message that you don't support his choices, you don't like the fact that he is different from other kids. He would be forgiven if he decided that you are not in his corner and that he cannot rely on his parent to back him up if he needs help.

To build on what Miravyets is saying - you are, in effect, telling your hypothetical kid that if he does a Barbie commercial it's HIS fault if he gets the crap kicked out of him at school. This is what I was alluding to when I said I was getting mixed messages from your posts.

To build on what Miravyets is saying - you are, in effect, telling your hypothetical kid that if he does a Barbie commercial it's HIS fault if he gets the crap kicked out of him at school. This is what I was alluding to when I said I was getting mixed messages from your posts.

You read too much into things. As freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

This might well be tl:dr for some people but I think it has some relevance...

It does, and it's a lovely piece of writing that I can most definitely agree with. (Except for MAYBE the worship part, but more in a different sense, in ways I'm not about to start going into right now.)

Wow. That's like asking me if I want a 7oz filet mignon with asparagus and garlic mash OR a kick in the junk and a punch in the throat.

Hey, you could be fatally allergic to garlic.

You read too much into things. As freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Coming from you, who doesn't read nearly enough. Rich.

You read too much into things. As freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
And sometimes a troll is just a troll. Is this one of those times?

Coming from you, who doesn't read nearly enough. Rich.

Please, send me a PM or a T'gram the next time you start a thread. I think I may hijack it and start talking about Scrubs Vs. House.

You read too much into things. As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I only read in logical extensions of your argument. I also recall that that only applied to cigars HE was smoking.

The fact that you're bringing Matthew Shepard into this is just abhorrent. Do you even know the whole story there? Is this a regular occurrence, or was it just a perfect storm of assholes? I am begging you to lay off this jeremiad you're on and have a drink.

umm it is actually a regular thing but why doesnt anyone notice it ??

coz

1. the victims do not usually report a majority of cases
2. most victims do not die
3.you actually have to look to see that there actually is many of these cases reported everyday bu they are not in newspapers or if they are then at the middle or hidden somewehere within it...
4. in most non developed countries, it happens all the time but no one cares ..

matthew shepard wad big coz of the horrendous way he died ..the deaths of gay due to bullying is far more common but usually not as horrible ...

I only read in logical extensions of your argument. I also recall that that only applied to cigars HE was smoking.

IE you try to find hidden meaning in my post.

Trust me, there is no hidden secret meaning that only people with decoder rings can see. What I post, is what I post, that's it.

Please, send me a PM or a T'gram the next time you start a thread. I think I may hijack it and start talking about Scrubs Vs. House.

Are you kidding? You're here more than the ads for Arabic and Persian dating services. Feel free. Just remember, you effectively ask for your threads to be diverted by saying such incredibly stilted and megalomaniacal things that some of us can't help but try to set you straight.

Are you kidding? You're here more than the ads for Arabic and Persian dating services. Feel free. Just remember, you effectively ask for your threads to be diverted by saying such incredibly stilted and megalomaniacal things that some of us can't help but try to set you straight.

Hmmm you know what. I may just de-railed it with Boxers Vs. Brief. For the women, Victoria secrets Bra vs. Sports Bra.

And your answer to that crime would be that Matthew Shepard brought it on himself for daring to be openly gay in a conservative town full of rednecks. He should have tried to act hetero and rednecky in order to "at least appear normal."

You simply refuse to acknowledge that you are giving bullies, bigots and abusers all the power by your arguments. You are advocating rewarding them for being bullies, bigots and abusers by letting them dictate how others behave or else risk a beating or murder.

Well, I'm sorry, but I say the ones who are not "normal" are the ones who grow up thinking that it's okay to attack people just because they are different. That kind of hate-based violence is a pathology, in my opinion, and a society that supports and condones it is a sick society. THAT kind of behavior is what needs to be changed by education and behavior modification and social/media messages that attack the underlying assumptions that justify it. Anyone who gets past age 7 still acting out that way needs an intervention, immediately.

What they DON'T need is the rewarding reinforcement of people like you pissing all over other people who refuse to arrange their lives around fear of bullies, just because you apparently can't find a way to cope with your own personal misfortunes. I choose not to be sacrificed on the altar of your bitterness.

Also, personally, I find it distateful that you would use crimes like a brutal gay-bashing murder and (in the other thread) the Columbine shootings as props in your "look at how bad my life has been" act.



so u are saying that all those who do not conform to the norm should nonetheless do so, even if that is not who they are trully???

then u might as well beg the bullies to directly beat the crap out of you because u r doing exactly what you abhor ... conforming and obeying the bullies and bigots ..m,y my how pleased they would all be when they discover that they do not even have to do something horrible and evil like attacking and killing others in order to dominate everyone around them...

i pity you...

Hmmm you know what. I may just de-railed it with Boxers Vs. Brief. For the women, Victoria secrets Bra vs. Sports Bra.
Victoria's Secret sells sports bras too.

Also girls have different kinds of undies too. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean we don't have them.

Hmmm you know what. I may just de-railed it with Boxers Vs. Brief. For the women, Victoria secrets Bra vs. Sports Bra.

I notice you're not doing yourself any favors in your music thread. Louis Armstrong's anus? Seriously?

Scrubs is totally better.

I notice you're not doing yourself any favors in your music thread. Louis Armstrong's anus? Seriously?

Hey, at least it has something to do with music. Plus it's my thread, so if I want to change the topic, I can.

so u are saying that all those who do not conform to the norm should nonetheless do so, even if that is not who they are trully???

then u might as well beg the bullies to directly beat the crap out of you because u r doing exactly what you abhor ... conforming and obeying the bullies and bigots ..m,y my how pleased they would all be when they discover that they do not even have to do something horrible and evil like attacking and killing others in order to dominate everyone around them...

i pity you...

Read the whole thread next time, please. Muravyets clearly typed "and your answer to that crime...." which means she was interpreting the post SHE was quoting.

so u are saying that all those who do not conform to the norm should nonetheless do so, even if that is not who they are trully???

then u might as well beg the bullies to directly beat the crap out of you because u r doing exactly what you abhor ... conforming and obeying the bullies and bigots ..m,y my how pleased they would all be when they discover that they do not even have to do something horrible and evil like attacking and killing others in order to dominate everyone around them...

i pity you...
No, I am NOT saying that. That is what WILGROVE has been saying, and I am CRITICISING him for it. See the rest of this thread and his posts in the "Sexism in Advertising" thread, which inspired him to start this one, to get caught up.

IE you try to find hidden meaning in my post.

Trust me, there is no hidden secret meaning that only people with decoder rings can see. What I post, is what I post, that's it.

I don't have to try, you don't hide your meaning. Either you mean what I've been saying or you're communicating poorly. I'm not exactly the only one to be calling you on this issue.

Hey, at least it has something to do with music. Plus it's my thread, so if I want to change the topic, I can.

I see. You do it = okay. Anyone else = hijack. Got it.

Wow. That's like asking me if I want a 7oz filet mignon with asparagus and garlic mash OR a kick in the junk and a punch in the throat.

You, sir, have just been sigged.

I see. You do it = okay. Anyone else = hijack. Got it.

I actually try not to hijack other people's thread. When I see that I am, I make a new thread. You on the other hand just ignored my request and contiune to bitch about censorship on a private forum.

OMG, how DARE they! How DARE private companies run their fourms the way THEY see fit.

Comon Comrades, let us overthrow the oppressors.

I love how Wilgrove is taking ownership of a group of electron bursts hitting a medium that turns it into an image of a thread.

This is just my two cents, but...

anyone notice that Wilgrove's tag under his name is quite possibly the best-suited one seen on these forums so far. I mean, I don't even know what a 'post demon' is, but his pretty much hits the nail on the head...

No, that's yours. :p

His is "Need a Frickin' life."

I'm just a touch on the nuts side, I've never fit people's expectations well, but I've also been aggressively outgoing, not to mention, upbeat and personally confident. The people who are around me actually come to realize that, for all of my quirks, I bring a whole heck of a lot to their lives. I make them laugh, I give them understanding, and I make a phenomenal wingman. Am I different? Yeah, and I like it.

No, that's yours. :p

His is "Need a Frickin' life."

That's my point. I don't quite see how I'm a 'post demon' but I can see clearly that Wilgrove 'Needs a Frickin Life.'

That's my point. I don't quite see how I'm a 'post demon' but I can see clearly that Wilgrove 'Needs a Frickin Life.'

OIC.

Misinterpretation FTL. >.>

different is cool because normal is boring. "Normal" people are funny because they think they are special and that their life is worth something. I'm "different" because I'm fully aware neither is true. About them or myself.

I'm just a touch on the nuts side, I've never fit people's expectations well, but I've also been aggressively outgoing, not to mention, upbeat and personally confident. The people who are around me actually come to realize that, for all of my quirks, I bring a whole heck of a lot to their lives. I make them laugh, I give them understanding, and I make a phenomenal wingman. Am I different? Yeah, and I like it.

I'm much the same way, though I can be really cold and almost completely untalkative to people who send bad vibes.

Eh, I'm just here for the bake sales.

he will be picked on, and he'll most likely want to kill himself afterwards.


And yet another assertation with no proof.

Instead of hijacking the "Sexism in advertisement" thread, I decided to merit this discussion it's own thread. So the argument is, that being "different" is ok, and sometimes cool. A boy can appear in a Barbie commerical, and he totally won't be picked on to a point where he's playing hangman with a real rope.

Yea....last time I checked, people are assholes. They're idiots and assholes. They will pick on anything and everything that isn't like them. That includes the cripple, the gays, the woman with incredibly short hair (even though I personally like the short hair cut on women) or basically anyone who isn't "normal". Whatever the Hell normal is nowanddays.

I've flew to California seven times for six ear reconstruction surgery, I've had four jaw surgeries, and Hell I even plan to try out the new procedure where they can remove scars with laser. Yes, all in the vain attempt to at least appear normal. Hell I've gotten the BAHA not because it'll allow me to hear better, but because it was smaller than my old hearing aid, plus it could be hidden better.

Being different sucks, being different is what makes your life a living Hell in school and in some places the work place. It affect your personal and professional life.

"But Wilgrove, I know this cool guy who isn't 'normal' and people like him!"

Yea, let me ask ya something, is he white, is he straight, and exactly how is he different? Because if he's one of those idiots who think being punk/goth (no offense to Goths, I like you guys. You were the only one who wern't assholes to me)/emo etc. is different, then guess what. He's not alone, there are other idiots being "different" right along with him.

So for those of you who think being "different" is cool, how? Also, tell me how you are "different".

I was pretty much an outsider all through school. Because, 1. We were poor, 2. My father was a loudmouth, 3. My mother tried to push me on groups that didn't want me, 4. I was more intelligent than average and didn't bother to try to hide it. 5. While I didn't have any disabilities, I was awkward both physically (I hit puberty when I was 9) and socially.

One of the kids who wasn't an outsider (she was actually one of the most popular girls in school) was disabled - she had leg braces and a body brace because of polio - she was one of the few who did include me, even to the extent of inviting me to her parties.

Different can be cool, it depends on the person. I was awkward and so very not-cool. The girl with the leg and body braces was, to my mind, very cool.

Threadwin.

Being different could lead you to death.

Most animals do not like it when their fellows are different.
In many cases they will kill him or her. He or she is a risk for the group. The different one could be sick, slower in movement or just getting the attention of predators more quickly.
So kill that different one, he’s dangerous.

Some biologists changed the look of one chaffinch from a group of 20. They just glued a little red straw above his head and in 15 minutes it was dead, killed by his own friends.

It’s pure animal instinct and since we all are no more than animals, we behave the same.

You can even create this behavior in an artificial way.

Many of you heard about the scientific Big Brother house where they did all kind of (soft and harmless) experiments with people.

When they entered the house, almost everyone was talking and having fun with each other. After a while, they divide the group by giving one part green t-shirts and the other people red ones.
A little later the green ones didn’t talk with the red ones anymore. They saw each other as a kind of enemy.

Big companies use this behavior for their own purposes. In many factories the blue collar people wear different colored collars. That way they are not united as one big one group but divided in several groups, which are easier to control. And it effectively works! At lunch time and smoking pauses the specific colored collars are sitting/standing together and rarely deal with the other ‘colors’.

Being different could lead you to death.

Most animals do not like it when their fellows are different.
In many cases they will kill him or her. He or she is a risk for the group. The different one could be sick, slower in movement or just getting the attention of predators more quickly.
So kill that different one, he’s dangerous.

Some biologists changed the look of one chaffinch from a group of 20. They just glued a little red straw above his head and in 15 minutes it was dead, killed by his own friends.

It’s pure animal instinct and since we all are no more than animals, we behave the same.

Clearly proving evolution false, how could life evolve if it kills anything different?

Ha ha, finally you evolutionists will have to admit you're wrong with your fancy theories and 'scientific' evidence, suckers!

There are two points I'd like to make re: the OP.

1) You appear to be talking kids/teenagers. People at those stages, especially when occurring in greater number, tend to be cruel. They haven't developed neither their own self nor their perspective for other people's selves yet and hit anything that might look like a target on their way there.

2) It's not "not being normal" that is cool, it is being who you are that is.
Of course this doesn't fly in the face of chronically ignorant and/or immature people, but then, nothing is good for all groups of people. Be 100% "normal" and try to fit in everywhere and there's bound to be a group of people who'll violently ostracize you for being "spineless" and a "conformist".

I'm quite "different" myself, both physically and mentally, and both has had me subjected to bullying, mostly in my teenage life, extensively. And of course it's gotten me down, and there have been two years of my life where I did not speak to anyone but my parents, and chose to live in my own little word for inability to cope in the others' world. I'm 22 now, at university, with a good social life, a partner, and a positive outlook on where I am and where I'm headed, and there are always moments where I stop and take in the wonder of that, when I look back and remember how there have been times I'd never have anticipated this.

But it has not been a "miracle", nor have I "adapted", it's just that the people I interact with have grown up, and I've always given them the chance to change. I'm still disabled, my spotty skin has only very recently cleared up, I'm still, uh, mostly homosexual, I'm still a very outspoken atheist (and Jewish by heritage), I'm still gifted and at the top of my class, I still dress out of the norm a lot, and I still have the need to say random words or make random noises, throw things like paper balls at people and bite people, but the adult people I associate with can deal with that and evaluate me as SoWiBi, the person, and not the weirdo.

You can either choose to fight the bullies, or let them win and become a bitter cynic.

Actually, "fighting" the bullies in the common meaning is usually letting them win.

Clearly proving evolution false, how could life evolve if it kills anything different?

Ha ha, finally you evolutionists will have to admit you're wrong with your fancy theories and 'scientific' evidence, suckers!


Eh? No...

The change from generation to generation is rather small and will not be noticed by the 'others'.

Secondly, the 'different' specie (or at least some) has the opportunity to leave.

He was joking.

:( It's true. I never used to be a slut in high school. Then I had to have back surgery at 18 and got a tattoo to cover the scar, and now I find myself unable to resist screwing every man in sight.
Go on...

I notice you're not doing yourself any favors in your music thread. Louis Armstrong's anus? Seriously?
What? I don't want to have to look that up...

Anyway...if we're running on anecdotal evidence here, the dude in the wheelchair at my school was about the most popular guy in school, next to the Indian guy and the black guy in a rural school. My brother openly collected Cabbage Patch dolls and was pretty popular in his school (didn't realize that until I had to pick him up one day and pretty much everyone had to have their time with him before he split-he was pretty quiet about it). There were pretty people that thought the world of themselves but no one had any time for. We had an actual model who wasn't more or less liked than anyone else.

Essentially, if you're a likable person a lot can be overcome. I know this is a bitter pill to swallow, it'd be easier to blame not being liked on a lot of other factors, make it everyone elses fault. People may be put off by differences, I'm not saying that they aren't, but really, most of all, people don't like pissy crappy people.

Don't forget that bullys are just themselves and not everyone. (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/09/18/pink-tshirts-students.html)

Inconsequential value judgements ahoy!

Instead of hijacking the "Sexism in advertisement" thread, I decided to merit this discussion it's own thread. So the argument is, that being "different" is ok, and sometimes cool. A boy can appear in a Barbie commerical, and he totally won't be picked on to a point where he's playing hangman with a real rope.

Yea....last time I checked, people are assholes. They're idiots and assholes. They will pick on anything and everything that isn't like them. That includes the cripple, the gays, the woman with incredibly short hair (even though I personally like the short hair cut on women) or basically anyone who isn't "normal". Whatever the Hell normal is nowanddays.

I've flew to California seven times for six ear reconstruction surgery, I've had four jaw surgeries, and Hell I even plan to try out the new procedure where they can remove scars with laser. Yes, all in the vain attempt to at least appear normal. Hell I've gotten the BAHA not because it'll allow me to hear better, but because it was smaller than my old hearing aid, plus it could be hidden better.

Being different sucks, being different is what makes your life a living Hell in school and in some places the work place. It affect your personal and professional life.

"But Wilgrove, I know this cool guy who isn't 'normal' and people like him!"

Yea, let me ask ya something, is he white, is he straight, and exactly how is he different? Because if he's one of those idiots who think being punk/goth (no offense to Goths, I like you guys. You were the only one who wern't assholes to me)/emo etc. is different, then guess what. He's not alone, there are other idiots being "different" right along with him.

So for those of you who think being "different" is cool, how? Also, tell me how you are "different".
being different isnt cool.

but you cant live your freaking life in fear that what you are and what you choose is going to get you beat up. maybe it will, maybe it wont. maybe it will make you wildly popular.

all of life in society is a process of being true to oneself while conforming to the standards of the crowd. that is as true for the most popular person as it is for the least popular.

It's not enough to me different. You must also be interesting and committed. If you are different and trying to be not so different, then you are attracting attention to your uncertainty. On the other hand, if you book yourself as the Human Picasso and spend your days sawing furniture into pieces and gluing them back together in random fashion(especially if it isn't yours), people will accept you. *nod*

Being cool is more to do with having the personality and the cultural capital to succeed in any given environment. We had a thalidomide baby at our school, who was quite literally the most popular person at my school. I looked perfectly normal, but was not popular. I didn't watch the right shows, didn't drink or smoke, and actually enjoyed academic activities like public speaking, in a school where I was the only student who did these things. I wasn't religious, yet I had moral values. I was extremely aware of current events, and was open about my opinions.

After high school, people didn't care about these things. People become more worried about their rent/mortgage, putting food on the table and having a good time, than who's wearing the right sneakers. Some people (myself included) carry a huge chip on their shoulder after high school and need to build a bridge. I got the Teacher's Pet award on my last day of school, and it took me a long time to realise that nobody cared. At the time, it was a huge humiliation which coloured my whole life. And then I woke up one day and realised that it's just not that important in the grand scheme of things. I now am moving ahead in my career, and am dealing with a mother who is just recovering from a nervous breakdown and has been diagnosed with cancer. But I don't feel the need to bitch about how unfair life is, and expect sympathy and understanding from random people on a message board.

Your rant in the OP is just another example of "My pain and sadness is more sad and painful than yours." Everyone has their own issues with being accepted. Noone is completely accepted by every group all of the time.

2nd threadwin.

It's not enough to me different. You must also be interesting and committed. If you are different and trying to be not so different, then you are attracting attention to your uncertainty. On the other hand, if you book yourself as the Human Picasso and spend your days sawing furniture into pieces and gluing them back together in random fashion(especially if it isn't yours), people will accept you. *nod*
Having attended a high school that was concentrated on training for commercial arts and was full of 2300 workaholic, bitter, NYC teenagers who had never been popular, ever in their lives, and were all prematurely obsessed with careers in advertising, fashion design, graphic arts, theater design, etc., I can attest that the above is literally and actually true. (Yes, it was actually done.)

Another route to popularity is to tie up other people's stairways with enormous lengths of rope, call it "Ropetecture" and have a review board consisting of advertising executives, professors from the Pratt Institute and representatives of the National Arts Honor Society review your portfolio of photos of the project and sketches of proposed projects (drawn on McD's napkins!) and issue the following critique: "Um...we're not exactly sure what you're doing, but we think you could make a lot of money at it." (Also, actually done, by a good friend at the time, named Rob, father of the school of Robism.)

One can also try working through one's severe emotional and psychological problems by acting out an elaborately stylized lifestyle focused around photography, antique bicycles, a collection of berets, an attic room filled with dried mint, an obsession with the city of Bucharest, and self-inflicted "experiments" in sleep deprivation (another close friend, generally accounted the most brilliant yet fragile mind in the whole school, universally admired, envied, and worried over even by those who knew him only as "that kid with the beret; damn he's good with a camera; how does he do that shit?; he's getting help, right?")

Everybody in my high school was "different." Most had suffered terribly in their previous schools, but all had remained true to themselves rather than try to fit in with crowds that had no place for them (which is why they applied to this art school in the first place rather than go to their local high schools like all the other kids in their neighborhoods). Once they got to the Island of Misfit Toys (as we liked to call it), suddenly they weren't misfits anymore.

Lesson: Context matters. YOUR life is the story of YOU. In the story of YOU, the most important character is YOU. You don't change YOU to fit the background. You change the background to fit YOU.

So the argument is, that being "different" is ok, and sometimes cool. A boy can appear in a Barbie commerical, and he totally won't be picked on to a point where he's playing hangman with a real rope.

Yea....last time I checked, people are assholes. They're idiots and assholes. They will pick on anything and everything that isn't like them. That includes the cripple, the gays, the woman with incredibly short hair (even though I personally like the short hair cut on women) or basically anyone who isn't "normal". Whatever the Hell normal is nowanddays.

I've flew to California seven times for six ear reconstruction surgery, I've had four jaw surgeries, and Hell I even plan to try out the new procedure where they can remove scars with laser. Yes, all in the vain attempt to at least appear normal. Hell I've gotten the BAHA not because it'll allow me to hear better, but because it was smaller than my old hearing aid, plus it could be hidden better.

Being different sucks, being different is what makes your life a living Hell in school and in some places the work place. It affect your personal and professional life.

"But Wilgrove, I know this cool guy who isn't 'normal' and people like him!"

Yea, let me ask ya something, is he white, is he straight, and exactly how is he different? Because if he's one of those idiots who think being punk/goth (no offense to Goths, I like you guys. You were the only one who wern't assholes to me)/emo etc. is different, then guess what. He's not alone, there are other idiots being "different" right along with him.

So for those of you who think being "different" is cool, how? Also, tell me how you are "different".
So being a sheep is cool? Doing everything everyone else does is cool?

If everyone jumped off the (insert name of local high structure here) would you (collectively) have to do it to be cool?

Thinking that because you have run into some assholes who have made you bitter, that EVERYONE is an asshole, is just not how the world works.

But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will...

-snip-

So moving away actually helped them? Rather than remaining at the same school with the bullies they moved off to another school and this was good for them?

Strange in the sense that when I said this in another thread you were one of the posters who attacked me for it, because I was giving into the bullies.

So moving away actually helped them? Rather than remaining at the same school with the bullies they moved off to another school and this was good for them?

Strange in the sense that when I said this in another thread you were one of the posters who attacked me for it, because I was giving into the bullies.
They didn't move away. All this happened in the same city, and everybody took the same transit system to schools that were mostly within walking distance of each other and saw the same neighborhood kids every morning and afternoon during our commute, and on weekends.

My point is that any given social group does not account for the whole world. If you don't fit in with one group, you don't have to change yourself to feel like you fit in. Just be yourself and look for a group that does suit you.

And how does not associating with bullies = giving in to bullies? If A is threatening B for being different, and B walks away from and ignores A while continuing to be just as "different" as ever, is it your contention that B is "giving in" to A? How do you figure that? After all, B is under no obligation to find social common ground with A. Why can't he just walk away?


Also, no it wasn't all that good to go to my high school. It was severely dysfuntional. I was there during the time NYC went bankrupt and schools like this lost more than 60% of their operating budgets, together with their staff, classes and programs. Half our teachers were drunks and drug addicts. The principle was embezzling. The building was infested with cockroaches and rats, and lacked proper ventilation for the extremely flammable chemicals the photography and print studios used (all concentrated on the top floor, so if they blew up, they wouldn't take the whole building with them). A school we all loved so much that my senior prom was canceled due to lack of interest and I think three people attended our 10-year reunion. And we all still had to deal with our neighborhoods and families. But what we DIDN'T have to deal with any more was a school social scene that didn't want us and that horrible feeling that we were all alone in hell. Yeah, we were in hell, but at least we weren't alone.

EDIT: And which other thread are you referring to, because I dont recall you saying anything like this. I'd like to look it up.

So moving away actually helped them? Rather than remaining at the same school with the bullies they moved off to another school and this was good for them?

Strange in the sense that when I said this in another thread you were one of the posters who attacked me for it, because I was giving into the bullies.
Okay, now I really must ask you to link to the conversation you are thinking of. It must be pretty old, because the only NSG discussion about bullying that I remember having in more than a year outside of this thread is the current Sexism in Advertising thread, which I just re-read, and there is not a single instance of me responding to any of your posts in that thread.

So if that's the one you're thinking of, then it was someone else criticising you, not me.

If you are thinking of another thread, kindly link to it.

Or feel free to retract your implied accusation of hypocrisy against me at any time.

If everyone jumped off the (insert name of local high structure here) would you (collectively) have to do it to be cool?


Okay, this isn't really helpful, but in my hometown there was a big ass bridge that all the cool kids would in fact jump off of...

Okay, now I really must ask you to link to the conversation you are thinking of. It must be pretty old, because the only NSG discussion about bullying that I remember having in more than a year outside of this thread is the current Sexism in Advertising thread, which I just re-read, and there is not a single instance of me responding to any of your posts in that thread.

So if that's the one you're thinking of, then it was someone else criticising you, not me.

If you are thinking of another thread, kindly link to it.

Or feel free to retract your implied accusation of hypocrisy against me at any time.

I will look for it, I need to remember what the thread title was. It was awhile ago though only in the past nine months or so.

Do you remember we were discussing with NeoB and he was talking about how he wouldn't allow his son to dress up in dresses? The thread was also discussing about rape, if you remember this. Now it may not have been you and I may be thinking of another couple of posters, maybe Smunkee, Poli but I was sure you may also have been apart of it.

Now, if I am to retract anything it will be a retraction that you didn't directly say this but implied the statement. I will have a look but I know that some people, and I may only be thinking you were one of them because you were apart of that conversation at the time for which I apologize if you weren't saying that moving my son to a different school is a bad option because it is running away and allowing the bullies to win, it was related to the concept of maybe not walking down the dark alley as it is prevention even though by rights you shouldn't be assaulted when doing so. Do you remember that thread? I will look for it over the next week and let you know, and if you weren't one of the posters than I will personally apologize to you both publicly and privately

They didn't move away. All this happened in the same city, and everybody took the same transit system to schools that were mostly within walking distance of each other and saw the same neighborhood kids every morning and afternoon during our commute, and on weekends.

My point is that any given social group does not account for the whole world. If you don't fit in with one group, you don't have to change yourself to feel like you fit in. Just be yourself and look for a group that does suit you.

Well that was my point I meant they moved away to another school.

And how does not associating with bullies = giving in to bullies? If A is threatening B for being different, and B walks away from and ignores A while continuing to be just as "different" as ever, is it your contention that B is "giving in" to A? How do you figure that? After all, B is under no obligation to find social common ground with A. Why can't he just walk away?

Well that was my point in the other thread, and some people said it was wrong. I don't figure that in fact it was something I supported, and I don't see why the person shouldn't just walk away.

Also, no it wasn't all that good to go to my high school. It was severely dysfuntional. I was there during the time NYC went bankrupt and schools like this lost more than 60% of their operating budgets, together with their staff, classes and programs. Half our teachers were drunks and drug addicts. The principle was embezzling. The building was infested with cockroaches and rats, and lacked proper ventilation for the extremely flammable chemicals the photography and print studios used (all concentrated on the top floor, so if they blew up, they wouldn't take the whole building with them). A school we all loved so much that my senior prom was canceled due to lack of interest and I think three people attended our 10-year reunion. And we all still had to deal with our neighborhoods and families. But what we DIDN'T have to deal with any more was a school social scene that didn't want us and that horrible feeling that we were all alone in hell. Yeah, we were in hell, but at least we weren't alone.

Ah, ok sorry to hear about that, I did mean though that you didn't have to deal with a school social scene, and if that may have been good for you and your classmates or not, it somewhat appears not though you may have been relieved for it?

This is just my two cents, but...

anyone notice that Wilgrove's tag under his name is quite possibly the best-suited one seen on these forums so far. I mean, I don't even know what a 'post demon' is, but his pretty much hits the nail on the head...
Psh, everyone knows that *my* tag is the most well suited.

Perhaps because I chose it.

Hmm, this thread actually reminds me of some of the perennial discussions I have with a friend IRL. I have many of the same worries regarding being different and uncool as Wilcove, though to be sure he seems to be facing some much bigger difficulties than I have.

Wilgrove has brought down a lot of hate with this thread. My reading of his 1st post, is "That being different can suck. If you are going to be different, and you have a choice about it, make sure you know the consequences."

People have assumed he thinks everyone should conform. I think he was just rebutting the point about a parent putting their kid in a Barbie commercial. "Does the kid know the cost of going in this commercial? Does he want to pay that cost?" is the message I got.

When all those Goths and Emos choose to put on their uniform and be different together, they know the cost, or they should do. Older people will stare at them on the train. The sporting types will think they are tools who should be beaten up. The more intellectual types will pity them for their need to be sheep. If they were rebelling, they'd wear suits and aspire to be accountants.

Bit of an off topic stream of thought there. Back on topic. The world isn't perfect. Bullying will happen. If an action is going to get someone bullied, they have the right to take that action, but they should know there may be consequences, and make their decision with that knowledge. If they don't want to face the bully, they should have that choice. If they want to make a stand, they should have the choice also.

I will look for it, I need to remember what the thread title was. It was awhile ago though only in the past nine months or so.

Do you remember we were discussing with NeoB and he was talking about how he wouldn't allow his son to dress up in dresses? The thread was also discussing about rape, if you remember this. Now it may not have been you and I may be thinking of another couple of posters, maybe Smunkee, Poli but I was sure you may also have been apart of it.

Now, if I am to retract anything it will be a retraction that you didn't directly say this but implied the statement. I will have a look but I know that some people, and I may only be thinking you were one of them because you were apart of that conversation at the time for which I apologize if you weren't saying that moving my son to a different school is a bad option because it is running away and allowing the bullies to win, it was related to the concept of maybe not walking down the dark alley as it is prevention even though by rights you shouldn't be assaulted when doing so. Do you remember that thread? I will look for it over the next week and let you know, and if you weren't one of the posters than I will personally apologize to you both publicly and privately
A) No, I have zero recollection of any conversation in which Neo B said anything about his son in a dress.

B) I have participated in MANY threads that dealt with rape.

C) I suspect this is quite old.

D) Knowing the kinds of arguments that I tend to attack in threads about rape and other gender-related issues, I'd be willing to bet that, in fact, any argument I did attack was very similar to the argument by Wilgrove in this and the Ads thread that I have been currently attacking -- namely that people should not bring attention to themselves and should conform their behavior to the expectations of bullies and abusers in order to avoid being bullied or abused. If that is so, then I would ask you to answer the question I posed to you herein -- how does not associating with a bully equate to "giving in" to a bully?

E) If the bolded phrase above is the actual case, and you are in fact trying to attack me for something I never said, then you can shove it. I do not defend arguments I never made.

Well that was my point I meant they moved away to another school.



Well that was my point in the other thread, and some people said it was wrong. I don't figure that in fact it was something I supported, and I don't see why the person shouldn't just walk away.



Ah, ok sorry to hear about that, I did mean though that you didn't have to deal with a school social scene, and if that may have been good for you and your classmates or not, it somewhat appears not though you may have been relieved for it?
If you are attempting to make an argument, you are failing. I can't tell whether the argument you are trying to make is just a bad one cobbled badly together out of pieces that don't fit, or if you are just typing words for the sake of typing.

And I challenge you to show me saying anything that contradicts what I said here. Ever.

Because if you are talking about a rape thread, then I'm telling you, the arguments I attack in those are the ones that say that, if a woman doesn't want to get raped, she should avoid going out in public. If you're going to try to say that that is the same as what I've said here, then I'll tell you you're full of shit to your face. Just giving you a heads up.

And also, I explained to you how changing schools in that city DID NOT actually change the social scene EXCEPT inside the school, because we all still lived in our same neighborhoods with the same kids we'd always known and not fit in with. But you keep ignoring my points or picking out individual bits to harp on rather than address my entire argument, if that's what it takes to prop up your unstructured ramblings.

A) No, I have zero recollection of any conversation in which Neo B said anything about his son in a dress.

B) I have participated in MANY threads that dealt with rape.

C) I suspect this is quite old.

D) Knowing the kinds of arguments that I tend to attack in threads about rape and other gender-related issues, I'd be willing to bet that, in fact, any argument I did attack was very similar to the argument by Wilgrove in this and the Ads thread that I have been currently attacking -- namely that people should not bring attention to themselves and should conform their behavior to the expectations of bullies and abusers in order to avoid being bullied or abused. If that is so, then I would ask you to answer the question I posed to you herein -- how does not associating with a bully equate to "giving in" to a bully?

E) If the bolded phrase above is the actual case, and you are in fact, trying to attack me for something I never said, then you can shove it.

I vaguely remember the topic. In fact, I think it was in my gay agenda (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559524) thread. To sort of locate in that huge thread, I found a summary post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13801614&postcount=401).

Here is the post he's referring to (of his):
Yes but what if this fails, then what? Last year my son and a group of his classmates were being bullied by some older kids, now my first instinct wasn't to say well it is your fault (as some of you have claimed is what I am saying) I went to stop it, after I found out that it wasn't just my son being picked on but a large group I continued to attempt to get the school and the teachers to be be much more aggressive in their actions as the current punishments were simply not working. Fortunately the school did come down a lot harder on these older students, after the principal had a large group of angry parents burst in demanding they do something about it, reciting workplace safety laws and threatening to call the police in on him.

Now had something not been done to my satisfaction I would have moved my son into another school, yes that is correct another school, and that would be preventing him from having to be put into the danger he currently was. This prevention option which I had considered and would have carried out is something members of NSG criticise me for and say I should not be doing, and I would like to know why that would be a wrong option to consider and carry out if need be.

You can read Dem, Ryadn, Bottle, Skaladora et al. respond to that in a fashion he Blouman has completely mischaracterised (or misunderstood), but what you WON'T find is a single post in that entire thread made by yourself.

I'd get that apology now.

Wilgrove has brought down a lot of hate with this thread. My reading of his 1st post, is "That being different can suck. If you are going to be different, and you have a choice about it, make sure you know the consequences."

People have assumed he thinks everyone should conform. I think he was just rebutting the point about a parent putting their kid in a Barbie commercial. "Does the kid know the cost of going in this commercial? Does he want to pay that cost?" is the message I got.

When all those Goths and Emos choose to put on their uniform and be different together, they know the cost, or they should do. Older people will stare at them on the train. The sporting types will think they are tools who should be beaten up. The more intellectual types will pity them for their need to be sheep. If they were rebelling, they'd wear suits and aspire to be accountants.

Bit of an off topic stream of thought there. Back on topic. The world isn't perfect. Bullying will happen. If an action is going to get someone bullied, they have the right to take that action, but they should know there may be consequences, and make their decision with that knowledge. If they don't want to face the bully, they should have that choice. If they want to make a stand, they should have the choice also.

To clarify, this thread was spun off of comments he made in another thread (Sexism in Advertising). Several of the posters here were involved in arguing with him there and have carried the conversation over from that other thread. In that other thread, he made comments indicating that, since being different is hard, people should not be different, i.e. should conform.

Wilgrove has brought down a lot of hate with this thread. My reading of his 1st post, is "That being different can suck. If you are going to be different, and you have a choice about it, make sure you know the consequences."

People have assumed he thinks everyone should conform. I think he was just rebutting the point about a parent putting their kid in a Barbie commercial. "Does the kid know the cost of going in this commercial? Does he want to pay that cost?" is the message I got.

When all those Goths and Emos choose to put on their uniform and be different together, they know the cost, or they should do. Older people will stare at them on the train. The sporting types will think they are tools who should be beaten up. The more intellectual types will pity them for their need to be sheep. If they were rebelling, they'd wear suits and aspire to be accountants.

Bit of an off topic stream of thought there. Back on topic. The world isn't perfect. Bullying will happen. If an action is going to get someone bullied, they have the right to take that action, but they should know there may be consequences, and make their decision with that knowledge. If they don't want to face the bully, they should have that choice. If they want to make a stand, they should have the choice also.
well if you want to stay on topic...

there is nothing wrong with having your son appear in a barbie commercial. kids that will dis him for it rather than be impressed that he is on the TV would also bully him for appearing in peter pan, the nutcracker ballet, or any other role that a child might be in when starting an acting career young.

all responsible parents keep at least some track of how their child it getting along with other kids and take care to try to keep bullying to a minimum.

there is nothing wrong with having your son appear in a barbie commercial. kids that will dis him for it rather than be impressed that he is on the TV would also bully him for appearing in peter pan, the nutcracker ballet, or any other role that a child might be in when starting an acting career young.
See, that assumption again. I didn't say it was wrong. I said there are consequences. Any person who is going to take a action, should know the consequences (Even if those consequences are wrong and shouldn't happen in todays society) and make an educated choice of whether that action is right or wrong for them.
all responsible parents keep at least some track of how their child it getting along with other kids and take care to try to keep bullying to a minimum.
In regards to having young kids acting, that's nearly always the parent's dream, not the child's. I have great qualms about getting kids to do elite sports from a young age, act from a young age, etc and think it is irresponsible of parents to live their dreams out through their children. But then that's probably for another thread in and of itself.

Oh please, even as adults we are shoved into class. You have the rich people, the pretty people, the normies, you have the rednecks, etc. Everyone, in every age of life, in every social setting is shoved into classes.
Those are an awful lot of pigeonholes you're jamming people into. Irony much? You don't look at people as, I dunno, people? Some of whom are assholes, some of whom are not?

Who?

Sorry. I just hate these sorts of ridiculous statements.
I'm US American, and I haven't heard of him.
If he's US American too, why use centre vs. center?

See, that assumption again. I didn't say it was wrong. I said there are consequences. Any person who is going to take a action, should know the consequences (Even if those consequences are wrong and shouldn't happen in todays society) and make an educated choice of whether that action is right or wrong for them.

In regards to having young kids acting, that's nearly always the parent's dream, not the child's. I have great qualms about getting kids to do elite sports from a young age, act from a young age, etc and think it is irresponsible of parents to live their dreams out through their children. But then that's probably for another thread in and of itself.
just making a general comment with you AND the OP in mind.


it would be foolish to keep your child from doing things that he wants to do because they might make him a target at school. its a bad lesson to teach your child.

your comments on elite sports and acting are duly noted and agreed with.

Wow. That's like asking me if I want a 7oz filet mignon with asparagus and garlic mash OR a kick in the junk and a punch in the throat.
I happen to know you hate steak, potatoes, and asparagus. ;)

*kicks in junk and punches in throat*

IE you try to find hidden meaning in my post.

Trust me, there is no hidden secret meaning that only people with decoder rings can see. What I post, is what I post, that's it.
Wilgrove, then I submit that you're not fully aware of what you're writing, and how in the aggregate it presents you, because very clearly you showed cause and effect in your posts: if you do this, that will happen and you knew it ahead of time.


If you are a boy and do a Barbie commercial, your life is over.
If you are gay and don't stay in the closet, rednecks will kill you.
If you wear tight blouses and short skirts with high heels to a bar, you should expect to be raped.

The first two comments are what you've stated already... the third is an example of a logical extension of your argument that if one does X, one is PROVOKING a reaction for which ONE IS THEREFORE RESPONSIBLE.

I happen to know you hate steak, potatoes, and asparagus. ;)

*kicks in junk and punches in throat*

Did I forget to mention that when a woman does that, it's actually a turn-on through the pain? :D

Did I forget to mention that when a woman does that, it's actually a turn-on through the pain? :D

Come for a visit...I've been wanting to beat the shit out of a man for a while now.

Come for a visit...I've been wanting to beat the shit out of a man for a while now.

Sweetness, I think you know by now that if I'm ever in the Northeast, I shall do my damnedest to accommodate you.

Okay, this isn't really helpful, but in my hometown there was a big ass bridge that all the cool kids would in fact jump off of...
LOL.

Well, 'round here, the quotation goes, "If everyone jumped off the Verrazano, would you have to do it, too?"

And I SERIOUSLY would not suggest it....


http://www.bridgeandtunnelclub.com/bigmap/citywide/bridges/verrazano/3rdave.jpg
http://www.marathonme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/verrazano-narrows_bridge_new_york_city_marathon.jpg
http://www.mta.info/bandt/html/veraz.htm

to give a sense of scale....

Sweetness, I think you know by now that if I'm ever in the Northeast, I shall do my damnedest to accommodate you.

I've been looking for an excuse to get that fantastically detailed leather kit I've been eyeing up for over a year now!

Did I forget to mention that when a woman does that, it's actually a turn-on through the pain? :D
The things one learns......

I've been looking for an excuse to get that fantastically detailed leather kit I've been eyeing up for over a year now!

I'm new and still tender...be gentle (at first).

The things one learns......

You brought it up, milady.

Incidentally, punishment accepted, I was being a jackass.

You brought it up, milady.
I did, didn't I? ;) Serves me right!
Incidentally, punishment accepted, I was being a jackass.
Eh, aren't we all sometimes?

The infractions go away in a short time, so long as people don't re-offend. I think that's pretty fair, so I'll be experimenting with the new system.

Im pretty different and always have been. In middle school I got made fun of a lot (who didnt?) but in high school I had tons of friends, lots of dates, and no one really made fun of me for being "different". I had lots of friends from different groups (punks, goths, jocks, etc) and dated cheerleaders, goths, girls in the math club, fuck I even dated a band geek girl once.

Im still "different" in college and have no issues being social and having friends.

In the end, being likable wins out.


Wilgrove, Im sorry your teenage years sucked, but really man, your life =/= everyone elses.

What exactly is not normal about a woman having short hair? Seriously.

What exactly is not normal about a woman having short hair? Seriously.

That one was weird to me, too. I've never ever heard anyone objecting to a woman with short hair. That must be one backwards uptight community...

Don't be silly! My friend the conservative Christian who didn't so much as kiss until she was married may THINK she's not exactly promiscuous, but the rather pretty design on her lower back says otherwise! Who are you going to trust - the actual experience of anyone who's ever met her, or Wilgrove's opinion on her choice of body art, huh? Huh?

Well duh! You're issued a tattoo when you start whoring around. Didn't you know? You're freind is obviously a liar. You have to prove you're a slut to legall get a tattoo if you're a woman.

That one was weird to me, too. I've never ever heard anyone objecting to a woman with short hair. That must be one backwards uptight community...

Where women must always wear dresses as well.

I only read the first page, but I imagine the next ten are all pretty similar to the first.

So let me say this: I, for one, was not "shoved" in to any social group. I have chosen my friends with care, and they lovingly and generously accepted me. Sure, people who meet me for the first time have a neat little box that they categorize me into, but withing 2 weeks, usually, they realize they had misunderstood.

Growing up, "different" for a girl at my school was a girl who didn't play Double Dutch jump rope at recess. I had never learned how to jump rope, so I always sought ought new students (even tho I had gone to the same school since kindergarten thru til 8th grade) and other girls who didn't jump rope. Also, I have parents of Western European and Hungarian descent. At any given point in my time in grade school there were NEVER more than oh, 5 or 6 White students out of 60 or so per class. And if you think belonging to the "privileged" group of Whites in the US worked as an advantage for me, you are sorely mistaken. Racism is, sadly, a 2 way street. As they say in Avenue Q, "Bigotry has never been exclusively white." Also, I excelled academically, and was rather pathetic athletically, causing even more difficulties for me to "fit in."

I have a dream that one day people will be judged on the content of their character, rather than their appearance. I am terribly sorry that people have judged you harshly or treated you cruelly as a result of the latter. I am even more sorry that you have let it affect you in as great a way as you so clearly have.

I can say, tho, that the most shallow thing I will judge someone on is their personal hygiene. But their age, or race, or appearance, or the sound of their voice are not reasons I dismiss or dislike someone. Indeed, I even try to not judge people based on their level of intelligence.

I, for one, judge people on the content of their character. On the kindness and respect they show others, on their ability to forgive, on their sense of humor, and on their work ethic. And, (someone tell me if this is a flame, I'm not really sure), Wilgrove, I suspect that although your appearance makes an easy scapegoat, in truth the reason a fair number of people dislike you or are unkind to you, has a good deal more to do with your character than your appearance.

I know this is a stupid question but what the hell is "cool" anyway?

I know this is a stupid question but what the hell is "cool" anyway?
An artificial construct often given the context of "what all the people better than me are doing/saying/wearing."

Okay, I wasn't going to speak up, but ...
I go to the role-playing club meetings at my college. I bring my homework with me (typically plant design, reactor design, or statistics) and watch and listen to the people playing. I've tried playing myself, but I couldn't quite get into it. (It could have been in part due to the party I was with.) This is my social life. I don't care if it's not cool. Honestly, I've hit the point in my life where I've realized that I will never be conventionally cool because I'm not studying for my MRS. Degree. I embrace this nerdy side and try not to let the world get me down.
Classify me if you will, Wilgrove (and anyone else reading this). I can guarantee from what you've seen, you're already wrong. I can also guarantee I won't care.

Okay, I wasn't going to speak up, but ...
I go to the role-playing club meetings at my college. I bring my homework with me (typically plant design, reactor design, or statistics) and watch and listen to the people playing. I've tried playing myself, but I couldn't quite get into it. (It could have been in part due to the party I was with.) This is my social life. I don't care if it's not cool. Honestly, I've hit the point in my life where I've realized that I will never be conventionally cool because I'm not studying for my MRS. Degree. I embrace this nerdy side and try not to let the world get me down.
Classify me if you will, Wilgrove (and anyone else reading this). I can guarantee from what you've seen, you're already wrong. I can also guarantee I won't care.
So what's not cool about that? ;)

<--confirmed RPer, computer game player, teacher of English, former president of Science Fiction, Fantasy and RP club in college, former admin/moderator of Players of Darkness board, former SCAdian, occasionally player of Magic: the Gathering, voracious reader, comic book collector, metal miniature painter, model builder, and Rennie Rat.

That seems like a healthy attitude to me, Dalmatia Cisalpina. Commoners will always judge those different from them, it's one of the more vile aspects of the human psyche. Just be yourself, the alternative is fighting an inner war in a desperate attempt to fit in. And trust me, that usually doesn't end well.

What, you're just now catching onto that fact?

As for the "Women are slut of they have tattoos. I only implied that if they have the tramp stamp they are. I mean if we're going to bring up everything I've ever said on NSG, let's at least be accurate about it.
Right...we wouldn't want to misrepresent the bias. People might get the wrong idea.

Okay, this isn't really helpful, but in my hometown there was a big ass bridge that all the cool kids would in fact jump off of...

Ours was a cliff.

What exactly is not normal about a woman having short hair? Seriously.

Damn flappers with their bobs.

Ours was a cliff.

lacking in cliffs, we made do with climbing walls and high ropes courses

*tedious, ranting OP*
*sigh*

lacking in cliffs, we made do with climbing walls and high ropes courses

We had that in the middle school. However, the cliffs had the benefit of being over the reservoir.

I know this is a stupid question but what the hell is "cool" anyway?
Economy of movement, with maximum expression.

it would be foolish to keep your child from doing things that he wants to do because they might make him a target at school. its a bad lesson to teach your child.
Agreed also. But some children may not understand the consequences of their actions.

When I was quote young I had just changed school, and my birthday was near and I made a big song and dance about how my birthday was coming up. This school was big in to "birthday punches". Given my time again, I'd choose to have kept my birthday to my self a bit more.

We, as the child's parent may want our child to stand up to bullies, but it is the child who reaps the whirlwind. It is their battle, not ours. We can try as much as we want to instill good values in our child and get them to stand up for themselves, but at the end of the day, it must be the child who chooses what to do, knowing the consequences.

As a child, I was not strong enough mentally (or physically for that matter) to stand up to bullies. Should I force my child to be put in a position to be bullied for an ideological purpose, when I wasn't strong enough to do it myself? No. He should choose, not me. Hopefully he can choose right and be better than me.

Being different sucks, being different is what makes your life a living Hell in school and in some places the work place. It affect your personal and professional life.

And yet, it is something we have in common with every single person. Go figure.

I vaguely remember the topic. In fact, I think it was in my gay agenda (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559524) thread. To sort of locate in that huge thread, I found a summary post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13801614&postcount=401).

Here is the post he's referring to (of his):

You can read Dem, Ryadn, Bottle, Skaladora et al. respond to that in a fashion he Blouman has completely mischaracterised (or misunderstood), but what you WON'T find is a single post in that entire thread made by yourself.

I'd get that apology now.

And she will receive it, as I said she would. Check your TG's Muravyets and further down this thread.

Thanks for finding the thread by the way Neesika, much appreciated.

My memory it appears isn't as good as it once was, though I would disagree with the summary post to an extent, even after reviewing the pages where I was involved.

Muravyets I wish to personally apologise for a statement I made about you on this thread, I implied that you were a hypocrite and had said some other things on a different thread that you simply did not do. I wish to apologise for any bad emotions that I may have stirred up with this poor and baseless attack on you, and for those reasons I am deeply sorry. :$

If that is so, then I would ask you to answer the question I posed to you herein -- how does not associating with a bully equate to "giving in" to a bully?

I am not saying it is, I made the BIG mistake of thinking that you had said that it was in another thread.

If the bolded phrase above is the actual case, and you are in fact trying to attack me for something I never said, then you can shove it. I do not defend arguments I never made.

I would say arc up next time, but I understand why you are as I say I am sorry for thinking that you made this argument.

If you are attempting to make an argument, you are failing. I can't tell whether the argument you are trying to make is just a bad one cobbled badly together out of pieces that don't fit, or if you are just typing words for the sake of typing.

And I challenge you to show me saying anything that contradicts what I said here. Ever.

Because if you are talking about a rape thread, then I'm telling you, the arguments I attack in those are the ones that say that, if a woman doesn't want to get raped, she should avoid going out in public. If you're going to try to say that that is the same as what I've said here, then I'll tell you you're full of shit to your face. Just giving you a heads up.

I wasn't trying to make an argument at all and your statement in the last paragraph is not what I was trying to say is the same thing, so no need to tell me I'm full of shit (I already know that:p)

And also, I explained to you how changing schools in that city DID NOT actually change the social scene EXCEPT inside the school, because we all still lived in our same neighborhoods with the same kids we'd always known and not fit in with. But you keep ignoring my points or picking out individual bits to harp on rather than address my entire argument, if that's what it takes to prop up your unstructured ramblings.

OK , I was asking a question to get more information and to help me understand your point of view, I was not trying to discredit your argument, I just wanted to understand your post.

I vaguely remember the topic. In fact, I think it was in my gay agenda (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=559524) thread. To sort of locate in that huge thread, I found a summary post (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13801614&postcount=401).

Here is the post he's referring to (of his):


You can read Dem, Ryadn, Bottle, Skaladora et al. respond to that in a fashion he Blouman has completely mischaracterised (or misunderstood), but what you WON'T find is a single post in that entire thread made by yourself.

I'd get that apology now.
Thank you, Neesika, for getting that information and clearing this up.

Muravyets I wish to personally apologise for a statement I made about you on this thread, I implied that you were a hypocrite and had said some other things on a different thread that you simply did not do. I wish to apologise for any bad emotions that I may have stirred up with this poor and baseless attack on you, and for those reasons I am deeply sorry. :$
Thank you, BE, for this most acceptable and gracious apology. We're all good again.

This thread is sad.

This thread is sad.
It is. It's very sad, and a bit upsetting if you think abou it too much.

It is. It's very sad, and a bit upsetting if you think abou it too much.

well I've had a busy weekend, so I missed the typical NSG drama that gums up the works when people are mingling about.

But seriously, whine much?

well I've had a busy weekend, so I missed the typical NSG drama that gums up the works when people are mingling about.

But seriously, whine much?
Feh. W seems to have had a mood-fit this weekend, but the pace of postings has slowed a lot. Hopefully he has vented whatever he needed to, and this thread can fade away.

This thread is sad.

It was just Willy being Willy, just...louder. I think he's better now.

I actually like the kid, seeing as how he reminds me of me at that age. All acquired book-learnin' and not much experience in the real world equals a shitload of assumptions and the intelligence to make them seem less like bullshit than they usually do in the hands of those with lesser faculties. That combination can make one's personality a decidedly acquired taste. I was fortunate enough to be acquired by a handful of people who saw my plight and tried to help. Some help was accepted, others shouted down and ignored, but looking back, it was all valid, and I certainly wish I'd have listened more than I ranted.

We, as the child's parent may want our child to stand up to bullies, but it is the child who reaps the whirlwind. It is their battle, not ours. We can try as much as we want to instill good values in our child and get them to stand up for themselves, but at the end of the day, it must be the child who chooses what to do, knowing the consequences.

As a child, I was not strong enough mentally (or physically for that matter) to stand up to bullies. Should I force my child to be put in a position to be bullied for an ideological purpose, when I wasn't strong enough to do it myself? No. He should choose, not me. Hopefully he can choose right and be better than me.
Gather round kids, it's story time. This is sparked by what I have bolded.

Where I grew up, my neighbors quickly became my closest friends. This lasted untill 7th grade when I was preparing for my Bar Mitzvah. It started as simple questions like "What is Judaism", but quickly turned to being fairly anti-semetic (signs saying things like "stupid Jew", having candy and gum stuck in my hair, having gravel from my driveway thrown at me while waiting at the bus stop). I, too, was not strong. Physically, I was lanky and awkward. Mentally, I was a wreck due to losing my closest friends due to something so stupid, and something I had chosen, but without even understanding what it was I chose. I persisted. I went to the bus stop every day. I didn't tell my parents what was going on. I didn't tell the school. I changed my paths to class, earning several detentions for being late. Finally, I came home one day to see "kike" written on my bedroom window. I washed it off, cried, and went to sleep early. Finally, I told my parents. They, and I, went to the school where I was told that I had to deal with it (zero tolerance policy, my ass). So I did. I walked home from school. I got rides to school. Avoidance was my best friend.

Finally, I got sick of it. I, fully cognacent of what I was doing and what impact it would have, said some very harsh, but very true, things about my former friends. I accepted that this would make my life worse, but ultimatly, was my best course of action.

Ultimatly, I bring this story up for one reason. You said you were not strong enough as a child. I was not either. But I grew up very fast. The pressures put upon me forced me to see the world for what it was, and is, and grew from it. Today, I could not imagine my life without that hardship.

How does this all relate to the thread? Kids will be brutal. They will be harsh. They will make eachother cry, hate life, and feel like it is all for naught. If not for something you chose for them, for something they themselves chose or, worse yet, for something no one chose. Will all kids be as resiliant as I turned out to be? I have no doubt in my mind that every child has that potential. What differentiated me from some other kids in similar situations who have not faired so well were my parents. Every step of the way, I knew I could go to them. Once I had, I knew they backed me at every step. What I also knew was that it was my battle to fight. They understood this, and allowed me to handle it as I saw fit.

Everyones child will be mocked, harassed, bullied. How they respond to it...if they fight or fold...will be directly related to what you, as a parent, do. My mother suggested karate lessons incase it came to that point. I shot that down...I wasn't ready to fight that battle. She listened.

You are very much correct in saying that it is, and must remain, the childs battle. Every child is weak in some way, much the same way that every child will be put in a shitty situation. Their strength to fill that void must come from the parents.


hopefully that wasn't as tangental as it now feels....*shrug*

Muravyets I wish to personally apologise for a statement I made about you on this thread, I implied that you were a hypocrite and had said some other things on a different thread that you simply did not do. I wish to apologise for any bad emotions that I may have stirred up with this poor and baseless attack on you, and for those reasons I am deeply sorry. :$
that is surprisingly...refreshing to see on here.

Finally, I got sick of it. I, fully cognizent of what I was doing and what impact it would have, said some very harsh, but very true, things about my former friends. I accepted that this would make my life worse, but ultimately, was my best course of action.
And that's the point. You did it knowing the consequences. Good for you. (If that sounds condescending or patronising, it's not meant to be, it's an honestly meant well done).
You are very much correct in saying that it is, and must remain, the childs battle. Every child is weak in some way, much the same way that every child will be put in a shitty situation. Their strength to fill that void must come from the parents.
I'm agreeing with that too. If my post looked like it suggested, "Whatever son, deal with it, I'm busy posting on NSG", no way. The child can fight the battle with your support, but it's very important that a parent doesn't make a child fight a battle that they don't want to fight, because the parent thinks the world should be a certain way.

hopefully that wasn't as tangental as it now feels....*shrug*
My fault a bit there. But the OP did refer to a boy being in a Barbie commercial, so it's not a complete threadjack.

immitation is the sincerest form of self imposed insanity.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/quirky_girls.png
That is all I have to say on the matter.

Gather round kids, it's story time. This is sparked by what I have bolded.

*snip the excellence*

*applauds*

Well said and well done.

So for those of you who think being "different" is cool, how? Also, tell me how you are "different".Well, that really depends on what you mean by 'cool' and what you mean by 'different.' My own working definition of 'cool' basically encompasses a set of qualities that make people admire you and want to be around you. If the person or group in question largely relies on physical or superficial qualities for this, then you might want to seek different company. Whoever is judging you to be 'uncool' (or 'cool' for that matter) based on physical characteristics probably isn't worth your time or trouble.

It is generally best to seek out a circle of people who appreciate your personality and interests- people who will accept you as 'cool' on your own terms. This can be all but impossible until you are out of high school. Moving to a large metropolitan area helps too.

And if being 'different' can mean having a rich and complex inner life, multiple creative pursuits and an interesting personality- then being 'different' is indeed 'cool.' I think 'interesting' is a better word then 'different' though.

What is cool?




















Baby don't hurt me. Don't hurt me, no more.

What is cool?


Baby don't hurt me. Don't hurt me, no more.

no, that's love. cool is different. and cooler than being cool is even moar differenter.

The ways that I am "cool" (there are a few of them!) are all things that other people have sometimes describe as ways I am "different." However, I think they're actually ways in which I am open about feelings/interests that are VERY VERY COMMON. It's not that I'm different, it's that I'm very similar to other people, and they like seeing that, so they think it's "cool."

Example:

Sex. Due to quirks in my upbringing, I don't have most of the shame issues about sex that are common in Americans of my generation. So, I openly admit that I enjoy sex. I'm not different for liking sex. Most people like sex. I'm different because I tend to say things without filtering them for "sexual content."

Another example:

One of the few times I've actually had somebody tell me, explicitly, that they thought I was cool, they specifically said it was because I "say what's on my mind." Of course, I don't actually have many creative thoughts. My thoughts are generally exactly what other people are thinking, or what they would be thinking in my place. I just lack that brain-mouth filter, doncha know. I'm not really different from people at all, and THAT is something they find "cool." (Sometimes. Okay, rarely. Okay, it happened that one time.)

Short version: I'm not actually different, I'm just flamboyantly normal.

As said before: refrigerators are cool. People are lukewarm, unless they're frozen.

The ways that I am "cool" (there are a few of them!) are all things that other people have sometimes describe as ways I am "different." However, I think they're actually ways in which I am open about feelings/interests that are VERY VERY COMMON. It's not that I'm different, it's that I'm very similar to other people, and they like seeing that, so they think it's "cool." *snip*

Totally. The key to cool is being open and enthusiastic about stuff you like in a non-elitist and non-creepy way. At least that's what I've found.

Totally. The key to cool is being open and enthusiastic about stuff you like in a non-elitist and non-creepy way. At least that's what I've found.

my precious, let me show them to you!

What is cool?




















Baby don't hurt me. Don't hurt me, no more.

I always thought you had a way about you.

So, I openly admit that I enjoy sex.

How you doin'?