NationStates Jolt Archive

...or, why is everyone else so wrong? This has been on my mind for a while now, how it is possible for two intelligent people to completely disagree on something. I realize some disagreements are subjective (Led Zeppelin is better than Pink Floyd), but others (Iraq has WMDs, abortion is not immoral) are pretty clearly objective. My first reaction is the one person is just ignorant, but in most cases they have just as much information the other.

Thoughts? Why is it dissenting opinions can continue to exist in a place like NSG?

Because, despite what conservatives like to believe (in line with your idiotic abotion shot you took) everything is not black and white.

Why Am I So Right?

simple, you're not.

...or, why is everyone else so wrong?

You should rephrase this, as it sounds inane.

This has been on my mind for a while now, how it is possible for two intelligent people to completely disagree on something.


Simple: neither is actually intelligent.

I realize some disagreements are subjective (Led Zeppelin is better than Pink Floyd),

Some are not (such as both bands are horrid).

but others (Iraq has WMDs,

It does?

abortion is not immoral)

Morality itself is subjective. Surely you understand this?

are pretty clearly objective.

The facts are objective. What are facts and what they mean is subjective.

My first reaction is the one person is just ignorant, but in most cases they have just as much information the other.

And they still are not be blessed your point of view? Remarkable!

Thoughts? Why is it dissenting opinions can continue to exist in a place like NSG?

Because "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four" or five or three or six, or anything else.

Because, despite what conservatives like to believe (in line with your idiotic abotion shot you took) everything is not black and white.

Certainly not! Things are whatever color liberals want them to appear as.

Thoughts? Why is it dissenting opinions can continue to exist in a place like NSG?
a) "Objective" statements - that is, statements proporting objectivity from a particular subjective perspective - never grasp truth in its entirity. Including that one and this one.
b) There is disagreement over the evidence that supposedly verifies any given individual's perspective.
c) Nobody is prepared to admit that it's their responsibility to back up their claims.

My first reaction is the one person is just ignorant, but in most cases they have just as much information the other.
It's all about logic and basic axioms far more than simple data volume in the brain.

...or, why is everyone else so wrong? This has been on my mind for a while now, how it is possible for two intelligent people to completely disagree on something.
Well, we can test how right you are right here. And the main question will be, of course, evil: we seem to all agree on what good is, but evil is still controversial. Just answer these questions.

Each answer is critical, as is the order of answering (answer immediately as you read, and don't change the answer after reading the next question!). If you surely haven't read the next question, you can allow yourself a bit of thought, otherwise, answer quickly.

Edit: A clarification. Argumentation is fine, but then it's important to also give a definite, short answer. "Yes" or "no" where it applies, a few words where not. Assume that the questions always steer on the extremes, i.e. criminals are real and malicious ones, arguing is for all of them, et cetera). "If" is not definite enough.
And if the question is about some form of organization, it's about that form of organization, not specific examples.



1. What shape is Earth?


2. How do you know?


3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?


4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?


5. Is arguing (as a third party) for greatly reducing their punishment evil?


6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?


7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?


8. Are you evil?


9. What types of evil would you distinguish?


10. Are corporations evil?


11. Are governments evil?


12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?


13. What is Evil?

How can two intelligent people disagree? Upbringing. Some people have different viewpoints based on different life experiences.

Each answer is critical, as is the order of answering (answer immediately as you read, and don't change the answer after reading the next question!).

It's a bit silly to put that bit in last, isn't it? :tongue:

Each answer is critical, as is the order of answering (answer immediately as you read, and don't change the answer after reading the next question!).
Do you want everyone to answer this? Or just Limacon? 'cause it sounds interesting!

I applaud that thorough and systematic destruction of the ludicrously blinkered original post.

How can two intelligent people disagree? Upbringing. Some people have different viewpoints based on different life experiences.

Upbringing, education, values, perspectives, viewpoints, access to facts, beliefs and belief systems, etc. etc.

Thoughts? Why is it dissenting opinions can continue to exist in a place like NSG?

Because when debating political positions, there's often no right answer.

It's a bit silly to put that bit in last, isn't it? :tongue:
Right you are. Fixed.


Do you want everyone to answer this? Or just Limacon? 'cause it sounds interesting!
The whole point here is relations between the answers, rather than the answers themselves (and it's the same way with the questions, subject is not important).

So sure, go ahead - the more people answer, the more interesting it is.

reality is a mirror that reflects the observers beliefs

It's all about logic and basic axioms far more than simple data volume in the brain.


Well, we can test how right you are right here. And the main question will be, of course, evil: we seem to all agree on what good is, but evil is still controversial. Just answer these questions.

Each answer is critical, as is the order of answering (answer immediately as you read, and don't change the answer after reading the next question!). If you surely haven't read the next question, you can allow yourself a bit of thought, otherwise, answer quickly.


1. What shape is Earth?

Geoid

2. How do you know?

My uncle's a surveyor. Showed me that over distances, the trigonometric survey becomes less reliable due to convexity of the surface, which can be calculated based on deviations from expected values on a flat surface.


3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?

It's good. Turning the other cheek and all, mostly not sinking their level of depravity.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?

Do they understand the nature of their crimes, and what it does to another? If so, then yes.

5. Is arguing for greatly reducing their punishment evil?

Not necessarily, but are we talking about a victim expressing forgiveness, or an associate begging for leniency.

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?

If the punishment is more evil than the original crime, than that punishment is still evil.

7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?

If done to prevent evil, then an otherwise evil act can be good. Killing a man clearly posing an immediate threat to others is not an evil act.

8. Are you evil?

I don't think so.

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?

Evil committed out of necessity vs. evil committed out of greed or malice.

10. Are corporations evil?

If their profit-driven motivation dominates over conscious, then yes.

11. Are governments evil?

If they oppress their people, and are in power despite the will of the populace, then yes.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?

Depends entirely on who is doing what.

13. What is Evil?

The absence of any will or effort to act on the behalf of another to safeguard another from unwanted and unjustifiable harm.

1. What shape is Earth?
The Earth's shape is defined by its boundaries. To me, the boundaries of Earth are the horizon, and the earth extends to the extremities in all directions. So I conclude that the earth has a circular surface in the non-euclidian geometry that my vision projects it on to.

2. How do you know?
I call 'em like I see 'em.

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?
Subtle! If, by mercy, you mean "non-vindictive", then I think it is fundamentally good to be merciful in all circumstances. However, mercy does not mean allowing individuals who have demonstrated a propensity to cause harm to others to continue to do so. If "criminal" as a term is restricted to refer to those who have been demonstrated beyond the reasonable doubt of a selection of informed arbitrators that they are prepared to violate agreements of our culture for purely selfish or destructive reasons (slippery slope on the destructive, but I'll let that slide), then "mercy" for "criminals" is to take them out of society.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?
The act of wilful violation of another's life is evil, in my opinion, but there is no such thing as an evil being.

5. Is arguing for greatly reducing their punishment evil?
I would myself advocate reducing any death-penalty punishment, and even reduction to a life imprisonment is a great one. Thus, no.

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?
7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?
What silly questions. Evil is Evil. It can be well spun, but if evil can be Good, then the terms are meaningless.

8. Are you evil?
As per 4, I do not believe so. I think I am capable of doing evil, and probably to some degree beyond my ability, or occasionally my desire, to prevent.

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?
There are as many types of evil as there are theories of morality and ethics, multiplied by the people or groups that invoke them. Essentially, however, there is one type of evil that cosmically matters (even if others matter on lesser scales); that which causes harm to the universal entity. Only the universal entity itself can distinguish that, though, so that's why moral systems exist - as an approximation to what we think is in its interests.

10. Are corporations evil?
11. Are governments evil?
As with people, I don't believe so. I think corporations and groups of people are also capable of doing evil, albeit as a sort of collective result of the actions of its members.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?
Give me a method to quantify the evilness and goodness of an idea and I'll give you your answers. One such quantification would be the number of lives lost as a consequence of the idea's application - in which case, I think Government wins the "evil" category.

13. What is Evil?
I view evil as a property of an action such that part of its execution involves the wilful disregard of life and/or personhood. Personal opinion, but I rather like it. :)

Much of why there is disagreement is because beliefs are often axiomatic. They are irrefutable and indemonstrable. Then there's a number of cognitive biases we all suffer from when information is presented.

a) "Objective" statements - that is, statements proporting objectivity from a particular subjective perspective - never grasp truth in its entirity. Including that one and this one.
b) There is disagreement over the evidence that supposedly verifies any given individual's perspective.
c) Nobody is prepared to admit that it's their responsibility to back up their claims.

Personally, it's my subjective limited perspective that I'm just not prepared to admit that it's possible to objectively verify any claim. :)

Sounds fun:
1. What shape is Earth?
Round

2. How do you know?
Because sometimes you can see the roundness of it all.

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?
Apparently good, because mercy=benevolence, and benevolence=good
I don't agree with being merciful to serious criminals though.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?
If they intentionally inflicted harm on other people, yes.

5. Is arguing (as a third party) for greatly reducing their punishment evil?
No, it's a job.

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?
Not if the punishment is more evil than the original evil.

7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?
Yes.

8. Are you evil?
I'd like to think not, who knows though?

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?
What?

10. Are corporations evil?
If they intentionally inflict harm on people, especially for profits.

11. Are governments evil?
See corporations.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?
I couldn't tell you, too generalised

13. What is Evil?
Anything that isn't good, duh.

Certainly not! Things are whatever color liberals want them to appear as.

Personnaly I'm a fan of dark blue. . .my choices tend to be more of an off green though and I'm more orange when it comes to fiscal policy

but others (Iraq has WMDs, abortion is not immoral) are pretty clearly objective.

How could a statement about morality be objective when there isn't even agreement as to the existence of an objective morality in the first place?

...or, why is everyone else so wrong? This has been on my mind for a while now, how it is possible for two intelligent people to completely disagree on something.

Different paradigms of understanding.

I realize some disagreements are subjective (Led Zeppelin is better than Pink Floyd), but others (Iraq has WMDs, abortion is not immoral) are pretty clearly objective.

For instance, there is a paradigm by which every thing is subjective and objective, depending only on perspective.

My first reaction is the one person is just ignorant, but in most cases they have just as much information the other.

Thoughts? Why is it dissenting opinions can continue to exist in a place like NSG?

Thoughts are highly over-rated.

There is no right and wrong. There is only tacos and non-tacos. *nod*

subjective evaluation of available information. even with the same information, people can arrive at vastly different conclusions because their subjective value systems may be different. i feel its the differing ethics that underpins our viewpoints that lead to disagreements between intelligent and informed people, leading to weighting pieces of information and sources differently, even with the same information available.

i'm no expert, but that's my 20 second guess :-)


Education is the ability listen to almost anything without losing your temper
- Robert frost

1. What shape is Earth?
Globe-ish

2. How do you know?
According to the schooling I recieved. I have personally seen the the curvature of the earth from altitude and flown partially around the world so I surmise that that curvature continues and thus the world is the shape they told me it is.

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?
I don't do good or evil -- though if you where to answer based on the majority religion in the U.S. I would say that would be frowned on to be anything but merciful.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?
Same as above -- I don't use the verbage. Personally I think you can only call a person evil if you don't understand why they do what they do. That said, I don't find it acceptable behavior and I would attempt to stop any instance of it.

5. Is arguing for greatly reducing their punishment evil?
Find a solution for society's ills that are not punishment based -- punishment is selfish and self-defeating IMO.

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?
See above.
7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?
Again, see above.

8. Are you evil?
Heh, no -- because it isn't a valid term AND because I attempt to be a decent sort of person.

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?
None, see above.

10. Are corporations evil?
No, but sociopaths yes -- I'm not a fan (this is a former CEO talkin too).

11. Are governments evil?
Government is just people in collective so it will be what the people want or are willing to abide.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?
Umm, well it does seem that corporations seem more likely to cause damage to society due to their legal requirement to put the company's bottom line before the good of the society.

13. What is Evil?
A sociologically constructed concept to explain horrid acts and other events that are outside accepted behavior, sometimes amazingly so. It is also a crutch that justifies lack of understanding -- if you label something evil you have reason to imprison, kill, or torture it. For those who like the term, beware the day it is put on the heads of you and yours.

1. What shape is Earth?
Roughly spherical, give or take some bulging.

2. How do you know?
The experts say so, and there is no reasonable reason I have come across to contradict them.

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?
Good.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?
Yes.

5. Is arguing (as a third party) for greatly reducing their punishment evil?
No.

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?
No.

7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?
No.

8. Are you evil?
Yes.

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?
Moral evil, which is directly caused by human action, and natural evil, which is indirectly caused by human action.

10. Are corporations evil?
Not inherently, no.

11. Are governments evil?
Not inherently, no.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?
In actual practice, governments.

13. What is Evil?
Working against the purposes of God, or intending such in one's actions.

1. What shape is Earth?
Spheroid

2. How do you know?
We has space piktars

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?
Difficult question. I'd say mercy (as in not causing harm) is always good. Lenience (as in tolerating the actions of the criminal) is probably not good, but also not necessarily evil.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?
Probably not, just severly messed-up

5. Is arguing (as a third party) for greatly reducing their punishment evil?
No, see 3

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?
Dear me no

7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?
Again, hard to say. At the very best, it's non-evil.

8. Are you evil?
Probably not

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?
"Evil" through ignorance, "evil" through greed, "evil" by accident/inertia, "evil" through tradition/law, probably more

10. Are corporations evil?
Not inherently, although they can be very irresponsible, leading to many evil actions being commited

11. Are governments evil?
See 10.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?
Governments tend to be in a more powerful position, so they could do more good or more harm

13. What is Evil?
Causing harm to another

That was interesting.

There is no right and wrong. There is only tacos and non-tacos. *nod*

Depending on perspective, just so.

1. What shape is Earth?
Whatever shape I imagine, based on the information I've gathered. Mostly round.

2. How do you know?
Those pesky photos from Apollo 17.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950622.html

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?
Yes.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?
In my opinion, no. Microsoft is a better example of "evil" (something that affects me directly).

5. Is arguing (as a third party) for greatly reducing their punishment evil?
Depends (on if the arguing affects me directly).

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?
No. Good is good.

7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?
No. Good is good.

8. Are you evil?
Depends (on if I directly affect myself).

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?
Just the "evil" type.

10. Are corporations evil?
Oohhh.... *thinks*. I'll stick with "Depends (on if they affect me, directly)."

11. Are governments evil?
Same.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?
Corporations, as they conspire to take my money for their profit, whereas government takes my money to use for public projects.


13. What is Evil?
Something that does me wrong.

simple, you're not.

Thank you, that answers my question. I have no idea why everyone else put all this stuff about "objective reality" or what morality is. They completely missed the point.:)

How could a statement about morality be objective when there isn't even agreement as to the existence of an objective morality in the first place?

Abortion is immoral or it is not immoral. If it is immoral to one person but not to you, morality is meaningless.

EDIT: See Soheran's response below.

Thank you, that answers my question. I have no idea why everyone else put all this stuff about "objective reality" or what morality is. They completely missed the point.:)
I thought you were asking a question about the nature of disagreement, and that the slightly tongue-in-cheek tone was just to get people's attention.

Boy, have I got egg on my face right now.

How could a statement about morality be objective when there isn't even agreement as to the existence of an objective morality in the first place?

What does "agreement" have to do with anything? Truth and falsity have nothing to do with agreement. Nor do objectivity and subjectivity.

I thought you were asking a question about the nature of disagreement, and that the slightly tongue-in-cheek tone was just to get people's attention.

Boy, have I got egg on my face right now.

You sure do. I thought I was asking a pretty simple question.
Tone is difficult to pick up on the Internet, so I feel I need a disclaimer here and say Kamsaki-Myu was right; I was kidding earlier.

1. What shape is Earth?

Round.

2. How do you know?

A little birdie told me. :wink:

3. Is it good or evil to be merciful to criminals, including evil ones?

Good.

4. Are murderers, rapists and terrorists evil?

No, but their actions are.

5. Is arguing (as a third party) for greatly reducing their punishment evil?

No.

6. Is evil, committed as punishment for a lesser evil, good?

No.

7. Is evil, committed to prevent a greater evil, good?

Even if it is necessary, that still does not change that it is an evil action.

8. Are you evil?

I have evil in me, yes. But I am not evil through and through.

9. What types of evil would you distinguish?

Evil actions that can be fixed (i.e. Theft of property, etc.) VS Actions that cannot. (Rape, Murder, etc.)

10. Are corporations evil?

No, though they may do evil.

11. Are governments evil?

No, though they may do evil.

12. Which is more good or evil, corporations or governments?

Neither, though they are both capable of evil.

13. What is Evil?

Evil isn't for people. It's for actions. Evil is any action taken with either malicious intent or ignorance that causes harm to people or to creation as a whole.