NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1842179,00.html?cnn=yes

More than half of Americans believe they have been personally helped by a guardian angel. Most incompetent nigh-omnipotent creatures ever!

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1842179,00.html?cnn=yes

More than half of Americans believe they have been personally helped by a guardian angel. Most incompetent nigh-omnipotent creatures ever!Just imagine how bad it would have been without that help.

Randall Balmer, chairman of the religion department at New York's Barnard College, says that the Baylor angel figures are one in a periodic series of indications that "Americans live in an enchanted world," and engage in a kind of casual mysticism independent of established religious ritual, doctrine or theology. "There is," he says, a "much broader uncharted range of religious experience among the populace than we expect."

It is interesting. Most debates and studies about religion are about some sort of doctrine, usually one associated with classical Christianity. This one seems to be about people having a direct experience of the divine that does not easily fit into established religious ritual or doctrine.

It is interesting. Most debates and studies about religion are about some sort of doctrine, usually one associated with classical Christianity. This one seems to be about people having a direct experience of the divine that does not easily fit into established religious ritual or doctrine.

Or that they've watched way too much Touched by an Angel and really never did pay attention in church.

Or that they've watched way too much Touched by an Angel and really never did pay attention in church.

I'm not going to assume that this must have been caused solely by crappy TV without some evidence. I'm sure crappy TV is partly responsible for some of these, but I think it is only part of the story.

I'm not going to assume that this must have been caused solely by crappy TV without some evidence. I'm sure crappy TV is partly responsible for some of these, but I think it is only part of the story.

I do, but then I have an incredibly low opinion of my fellow Americans. The cheeseburger swilling idiot box addicted retards.

I do, but then I have an incredibly low opinion of my fellow Americans. The cheeseburger swilling idiot box addicted retards.

The responses defied standard class and denominational assumptions about religious belief; the majority held up regardless of denomination, region or education — though the figure was a little lower (37%) among respondents earning more than $150,000 a year.

Bolding mine for emphasis.

It is not only the McRetards who believe this, but educated people as well.

er...its a normal western cultural thing I'm actually surprised its not higher myself

just look at how many people have claimed they have seen a ghost or some other phenomenon and what they describe it as

Bolding mine for emphasis.

It is not only the McRetards who believe this, but educated people as well.

Education neither cures nor prevents stupidity. Try again.

Edit: All education does is alleviate ignorance to a limited extent.

Education neither cures nor prevents stupidity. Try again.

So, are these people stupid because they believe in angels, or do they believe in angels because they're stupid?

It seems like you're saying the second. Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Education neither cures nor prevents stupidity. Try again.

however it is affected by region *looks at Kansas*

Americans live in a world catered to instant gratification of the desires of the individual. Is it that surprising that they assume divine providence works in the same way?

So, are these people stupid because they believe in angels, or do they believe in angels because they're stupid?

It seems like you're saying the second. Do you have any evidence for this claim?

Actually I was merely pointing out your error in assuming that educated people and "mcretards" are mutually exclusive categories.

In some Asian cultures they believe the spirits of ancestors assist them with their daily lives. In South America some cultures believe in gods of the forest who assist with hunting and fertility. Native Americans believe in many spirit entities who control all sorts of natural phenomenon.

Are these people stupid? Uneducated? Are they all dupes of evil American culture?

One wonders at the level of intelligence involved in the conclusions I see in this thread.

Actually I was merely pointing out your error in assuming that educated people and "mcretards" are mutually exclusive categories.

Yes, how silly of me to assume that a cross section of USAmericans with varying educational levels would actually include people of varying degrees of intellectual acuity. I must have been under the impression that this was a random poll.

From the master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPPesVeTE1o

Yes, how silly of me to assume that a cross section of USAmericans with varying educational levels would actually include people of varying degrees of intellectual acuity. I must have been under the impression that this was a random poll.

Oh it is a random poll, it just doesn't assert that a majority of Americans think.

Oh it is a random poll, it just doesn't assert that a majority of Americans think.

And that is because anyone who believes that they have had a direct experience with the divine must be an unthinking person.

That's an interesting belief. Do you have any evidence for such a belief?

From the master:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPPesVeTE1o

*Bows* The Master has spoken.

In some Asian cultures they believe the spirits of ancestors assist them with their daily lives. In South America some cultures believe in gods of the forest who assist with hunting and fertility. Native Americans believe in many spirit entities who control all sorts of natural phenomenon.

Are these people stupid? Uneducated?
Not necessarily.

Are they all dupes of evil American culture?
Substitute "Asian", "South American" and "Native American" in appropriately, and yes, just like those of us less mythically inclined are dupes of the post-enlightenment Scientific culture. There is a strong anthropological element to mythological attitudes - what you're likely to believe in is primarily based on your environment and your social background.

And that is because anyone who believes that they have had a direct experience with the divine must be an unthinking person.

That's an interesting belief. Do you have any evidence for such a belief?

Never said that. Though anyone who believes a guardian angel exists in this crapsack world has probably not paid sufficient attention.

Never said that. Though anyone who believes a guardian angel exists in this crapsack world has probably not paid sufficient attention.

No. You just implied it.

So, what is it that 55% of USAmericans don't seem to be aware of?

No. You just implied it.

So, what is it that 55% of USAmericans don't seem to be aware of?

Lots of things:

Sometimes dumb sounds cute: Sixty percent of Americans can't name five of the Ten Commandments, and 50% of high school seniors think Sodom and Gomorrah were married.

Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University, isn't laughing. Americans' deep ignorance of world religions — their own, their neighbors' or the combatants in Iraq, Darfur or Kashmir — is dangerous, he says.

His new book, Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know — and Doesn't, argues that everyone needs to grasp Bible basics, as well as the core beliefs, stories, symbols and heroes of other faiths.

Belief is not his business, says Prothero, who grew up Episcopalian and now says he's a spiritually "confused Christian." He says his argument is for empowered citizenship.

"More and more of our national and international questions are religiously inflected," he says, citing President Bush's speeches laden with biblical references and the furor when the first Muslim member of Congress chose to be sworn in with his right hand on Thomas Jefferson's Quran.

"If you think Sunni and Shia are the same because they're both Muslim, and you've been told Islam is about peace, you won't understand what's happening in Iraq. If you get into an argument about gay rights or capital punishment and someone claims to quote the Bible or the Quran, do you know it's so?

"If you want to be involved, you need to know what they're saying. We're doomed if we don't understand what motivates the beliefs and behaviors of the rest of the world. We can't outsource this to demagogues, pundits and preachers with a political agenda."

Scholars and theologians who agree with him say Americans' woeful level of religious illiteracy damages more than democracy.

"You're going to make assumptions about people out of ignorance, and they're going to make assumptions about you," says Philip Goff of the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture at Indiana University in Indianapolis.

Goff cites a widely circulated claim on the Internet that the Quran foretold American intervention in the Middle East, based on a supposed passage "that simply isn't there. It's an entire argument for war based on religious ignorance."

"We're impoverished by ignorance," says the Rev. Joan Brown Campbell, former general secretary of the National Council of Churches. "You can't draw on the resources of faith if you only have an emotional understanding, not a sense of the texts and teachings."

But if people don't know Sodom and Gomorrah were two cities destroyed for their sinful ways, Campbell blames Sunday schools that "trivialized religious education. If we want people to have serious knowledge, we have to get serious about teaching our own faith."

Prothero's solution is to require middle-schoolers to take a course in world religions and high schoolers to take one on the Bible. Biblical knowledge also should be melded into history and literature courses where relevant. He wants all college undergrads to take at least one course in religious studies.

He calls for time-pressed adults to sample holy books and history texts. His book includes a 90-page dictionary of key words and concepts from Abraham to Zen. There's also a 15-question quiz — which his students fail every year.

But it's the controversial, though constitutional, push into schools that draws the most attention.

In theory, everyone favors children knowing more. The National Education Association handbook says religious instruction "in doctrines and practices belongs at home or religious institutions," while schools should teach world religions' history, heritage, diversity and influence.

Only 8% of public high schools offer an elective Bible course, according to a study in 2005 by the Bible Literacy Project, which promotes academic Bible study in public schools. The project is supported by Freedom Forum's First Amendment Center, a Washington, D.C., non-profit that promotes free speech.

The study surveyed 1,000 high schoolers and found that just 36% know Ramadan is the Islamic holy month; 17% said it was the Jewish day of atonement.

Goff says schools are not wholly to blame for religious illiteracy. "There are simply more groups, more players. Students didn't know Ramadan any better in 1965, but now there are as many Muslims as Jews in America. It's more important to know who's who."

Also today, "there is more emphasis on religious experience as a mark of true religion and less emphasis on doctrine and knowledge of the faith."

Still, it's the widely misunderstood 1963 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court that may have been the tipping point: It removed devotional Bible reading from the schools but spelled out that it should not have been removed from literature and history.

"The decision clearly states you can't be educated without it, but it scared schools so much they dropped it all," Goff says.

"Schools are terrified of this," says Joy Hakim, author of several U.S. history textbooks. She's in her 70s but remembers well as a Jewish child how she felt like an outsider in schools that pushed Christianity in the curriculum.

But she says the backlash went too far. "Now, you can't use biblical characters or narrative in anything. We've stopped teaching stories. We teach facts, and the characters are lost."

Religion, like the arts, has become an afterthought in an education climate driven by "the fixation on literacy and numeracy — math and reading," says Bob Schaeffer of the National Center for Fair & Open Testing, a group critical of the standards-based education movement. "If the ways schools, teachers, principals and superintendents are judged all depend on math and reading scores, that's what you're going to teach," he says.

Still, it's a tough tightrope to walk between those who say the Bible can be just another book, albeit a valuable one, and those who say it is inherently devotional.

The First Amendment Center also published a guide to "The Bible and the Public Schools," which praised a ninth-grade world religions course in Modesto, Calif., and cited a study finding students were able to learn about other faiths without altering their own beliefs. But it also said the class may not be easily replicated and required knowledgeable, unbiased teachers.

Leland Ryken, an English professor at evangelical Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill., tested a 2006 textbook, The Bible and Its Influence, underwritten by the Bible Literacy Project. Ryken favors adding classes in the Bible and literature and social studies. But he cautions, "Religious literacy and world religions are not the same as the Bible as literature. It's a much more loaded subject, and I really question if high school students can get much knowledge beyond a sense of the importance of religion."

The Bible and Its Influence has been blasted by conservative Christians such as the Rev. John Hagee, pastor of the 18,000-member Cornerstone Church in San Antonio. Hagee calls it "a masterful work of deception, distortion and outright falsehoods" planting "concepts in the minds of children which are contrary to biblical teaching."

Hagee wrote to the Alabama legislature opposing adoption of the text, citing points such as discussion questions that could lead children away from a belief in God. Example: Asking students to ponder if Adam and Eve got "a fair deal as described in Genesis" would plant the seed that "since God is the author of the deal, God is unfair."

Hagee prefers the Bible itself as a textbook for Bible classes, used with a curriculum created by a group of conservative evangelicals, the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, based in Greensboro, N.C. The council says its curriculum is being offered in more than 300 schools.

Sheila Weber, a spokeswoman for The Bible Literacy project, says their textbook has been revised in the second printing issued last month with the examples cited by Hagee removed. The teachers' edition was reissued in August. The first printing was approved by numerous Christian scholars and seminaries and is already in use in 82 school districts.

Mark Chancey, professor of religious studies at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, looked last year at how Texas public school districts taught Bible classes. His two studies, sponsored by the Texas Freedom Network, a civil liberties group, found only 25 of more than 1,000 districts offered such a class.

"And 22 of them, including several using the Greensboro group's curriculum, were clearly over the line," teaching Christianity as the norm, and the Bible as inspired by God, says Chancey. One teacher even showed students a proselytizing Power Point titled, "God's road map for your life" that was clearly unconstitutional, he says.

The controversies, costs and competing demands in the schools have prompted many to turn instead to character education.

But classes promoting pluralism and tolerance fail on the religious literacy front because they "reduce religion to morality," Prothero says, or they promote a call for universal compassion as if it were the only value that matters.

"We are not all on the same one path to the same one God," he says. "Religions aren't all saying the same thing. That's presumptuous and wrong. They start with different problems, solve the problems in different ways, and they have different goals."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm
http://people-press.org/report/319/public-knowledge-of-current-affairs-little-changed-by-news-and-information-revolutions

Americans are ignorant on a wide range of topics, theology isn't the least of 'em.

*snip*

It's an interesting article, I see no argument against teaching a course on world religions, as long as its essentially a dispassionate look at the varied beliefs around the world, their effect on culture, compare and contrast.

I think that would be important.

Never trust anyone in a red beret claiming to be a supernatural being.

It's an interesting article, I see no argument against teaching a course on world religions, as long as its essentially a dispassionate look at the varied beliefs around the world, their effect on culture, compare and contrast.

I think that would be important.

I think the goal of this thread is to proclaim the stupidity of Americans. I am sure everyone in Brazil or Norway knows what Ramadan is or where Rwanda is located.

Seriously though, having actually travelled the world, I can safely say that every country has it's fair share of ignorance. It seems to be a universal concept that one's own culture and nationality dominates one's experiences.

It's an interesting article, I see no argument against teaching a course on world religions, as long as its essentially a dispassionate look at the varied beliefs around the world, their effect on culture, compare and contrast.

I think that would be important.

I think it'd be very helpful and let people learn more about the world stage.

I think the goal of this thread is to proclaim the stupidity of Americans. I am sure everyone in Brazil or Norway knows what Ramadan is or where Rwanda is located.

Seriously though, having actually travelled the world, I can safely say that every country has it's fair share of ignorance. It seems to be a universal concept that one's own culture and nationality dominates one's experiences.

*poke poke* Oi, I'm from Indiana, I'm familiar with American stupidity. If you want to make a thread on how ignorant Brazilians or Israelis are feel free.

It is interesting. Most debates and studies about religion are about some sort of doctrine, usually one associated with classical Christianity. This one seems to be about people having a direct experience of the divine that does not easily fit into established religious ritual or doctrine.

I've always objected to associating divinity and the supernatural with a particular doctrine. All true sports fans know that curses, streaks, lucky seats/shirts/nachos, and jinxes like calling a shutout are real, and they don't have anything to do with God.

Education neither cures nor prevents stupidity. Try again.

Edit: All education does is alleviate ignorance to a limited extent.

So everyone who has any religious, spiritual, superstitious or otherwise unscientific belief is stupid? Considering that covers the majority of the world's population, we may need to recalibrate our definitions.

Americans live in a world catered to instant gratification of the desires of the individual. Is it that surprising that they assume divine providence works in the same way?

So the reason people believe in divine intervention and help is because their self-centered and accustomed to being instantly rewarded? It couldn't possibly be that the trials and hardships of life, especially in the current economic situation, provoke in some people a profound need to believe there is something outside of themselves watching out for them, giving them hope?

Lots of things:



http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-03-07-teaching-religion-cover_N.htm
http://people-press.org/report/319/public-knowledge-of-current-affairs-little-changed-by-news-and-information-revolutions

Americans are ignorant on a wide range of topics, theology isn't the least of 'em.

But a lack of awareness about theological matters says nothing about direct experiences of the divine. You could be a theologian and have these experiences, or be some uninformed stereotypical redneck and have these experiences. One will be able to compare the experience to texts written by dead guys, while the other will have to fall back on somewhat more limited resources. But other than that, I don't see any difference.

Fun-fact: According to Will Durant, Christ was not nailed to the cross as commonly believed, but rather tied to it. After only six hours (crucifixion normally takes 2-3 days) a couple of influential Jews saw to it that he was taken down. Two days later, Christ was not at the tomb where he was left. Resurrection!

1700, huh? I'da thought there were more Americans than that.

Just goes to show that anyone can be ignorant.

I do, but then I have an incredibly low opinion of my fellow Americans. The cheeseburger swilling idiot box addicted retards.

My father believes it too, and he's not what you'd call a "cheeseburger swilling idiot box addicted retard." He's quite the opposite, in fact, though he has his failings. (He's convinced artificial intelligence would be a ginormous mistake, for instance.)

The beliefs of this have nothing to do with idiocy or Christianity, but everything to do with how humans think, in general. You have some really crazy event happen to you--for instance, in my dad's case he almost fell off of a cliffside he was climbing to his death--and manage to save yourself but don't remember how in the heat of the moment for whatever reason(or you get saved by some extremely coincidental thing, like a tree falling at the right time or something) and, in the chaos, you're so grateful and you can't figure out why it happened that you automatically attribute it to some conscious cause that helped you.

It's only attributed to guardian angels in American society because that's what frames our culture. Had we been, say, believers in ancient Norse beliefs, we'd have thought Valkyries or something like that, for example.

As for why people attribute conscious causes to everything, my guess is that's a byproduct of how we evolved. We basically evolved our brains and minds to be able to become aware that others of our species had consciousnesses just like our own, and as a side effect, we start wondering if everything else has one too.

But that's just my speculation.

So the reason people believe in divine intervention and help is because their self-centered and accustomed to being instantly rewarded?
No, but being self-centred and accustomed to being instantly rewarded helps in establishing the idea. If you can't see the real reasons for your well-being, such as the efforts of your friends and family, the advances in medical science, the overworking of labourers, market forces or whatever else, then thanking a Guardian Angel becomes much more likely.

It couldn't possibly be that the trials and hardships of life, especially in the current economic situation, provoke in some people a profound need to believe there is something outside of themselves watching out for them, giving them hope?
Mythology doesn't just become popular because people are down on their luck, you know. It's not like people go "Right, hard times coming up, let's start believing in angels". The belief is there beforehand and called upon when needs arise, even if the degree to which people psychologically rely on that belief varies.

I feel the need to weigh in on this one, on several points. I'm seeing a lot of glib remarks and airy assumptions and not a lot of thought put into this thread so far. In particular, I don't see those in this thread who latch onto this as another excuse to call people who believe things they don't "stupid" putting much more thought into their remarks than those Americans who think they have a guardian angel looking over them, yet have very little notion of what an angel is supposed to be.

So allow me to attempt to sap all the "fun" out of this thread by actually addressing the topic.

In order to avoid a "tl;dnr" net-response, which occurs even among those who are criticizing others for not thinking things through, I will break up my argument into separate posts/items (as in list items). However, though they are separated for easier reading, they are all related.

ITEM THE FIRST: DISCLOSURE

I am an animist. I am telling you this so you will know where I'm coming from with my remarks on the topic.

Being an animist means I believe in two things that are the signature feature of animism -- souls and spirits. They are not synonyms. Spirits are non-physical conscious entities, which is pretty much the only thing that makes them different from physical conscious entities such as people. All entities, whether physical or non-physical, have souls. According to my beliefs, spirits are not significantly different from non-spirits. Just like us, they have different things they do, different things they are responsible for, they have varying personalities, temperaments and intellects, and varying degrees of power in the world. There is no inherent inferiority/superiority in people/spirits, nor, theoretically, is there a lot a spirit can do that a regular person can't, if they learn the "how" of it (note: this view varies among animist religions). That's my universe and welcome to it.

NOTE: I do not believe that these spirits work for me or look out for me in any way, except insofar as I may establish relationships with those immediately around me from time to time (just like my non-spirit neighbors). So that makes me a little different from the guardian-angel crowd. More about that later.

ITEM THE SECOND: PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN THINGS LIKE SPIRITS/ANGELS/ETC:

Many cultural anthropologists and comparative religion academics believe that animism is the oldest form of spiritual/religious thinking in the world. Personally, I suspect that the ancestor-worship/dead-veneration form, which is now seen as a subset of animism, has a stronger claim to being the most ancient, but that's just my theory, the details of which are off-topic. Anyway, the point is that, being the most ancient, continuously existent form of spiritual thinking, the animist mindset is extraordinarly widespread and occurs in every human population across all cultures, regardless of technological advancement, education levels, or established "official" religion.

Personally again, I believe this is because the animist mindset is a natural feature of certain personality types. In other words, animists are born, not made. You either think this way, or you don't. Even in animist cultures, there are people who just don't see the world that way, and oh, well. No amount of cultural conditioning is going to make believers out of them. The same with non-animist cultures -- no amount of cultural conditioning is going to make some people stop experiencing the universe as a place stuffed chock-a-block with conscious awarenesses. For example, I'm an American, raised in a Catholic\Protestant local culture, by a family that was assertively non-religious. There was absolutely nothing in my formative experience to suggest the animist world-view described above, yet regardless of everything, it is the only concept of life that ever made any sense to me. Not surprisingly, I conclude that this mindset is what I brought to the game, not something I got from another source.

This is why I reject the arguments that people who believe in angels and such things are necessarily aping cultural norms for some personal social or emotional benefit. There are actually millions, if not billions, of people in the world who believe -- really, they assume -- that spirits exist, regardless of culture. The specific forms those spirits may take in their minds will be culturally determined, which is why some think of winged angels, others think of forest spirits, others think of the ghosts of the dead, etc., but the belief that such things exist is neither socially determined/dependent nor adopted for some shallow form of self-indulgence (to make one feel "special"). It is simply the way many people experience the world.

So remember, when you call everyone who believes in spirits "stupid" or similar insulting labels, you are insulting them for something that (A) is as much a part of them as their eye color, and (B) has no more to do with their intelligence than their eye color does. If you think you can educate the spirit-based mindset out of them, do you also think you can educate their brown eyes blue? Or maybe I could turn that approach around and educate the attitude-copping snob out of you? (Note: I don't think I can.)

Bottom line: The belief in or, more properly, the assumption of the existence of spirits is a separate feature of a certain kind of mindset and has nothing whatsoever to do with inherent intelligence or cultural conditioning. If you think otherwise, kindly account for all the very intelligent people in the world who believe in spirits and all the very stupid people in the world who don't.

By the relationship between wealth and belief in them, I'd say it's a cheap way for the rich to get over feeling guilty for making tons of money, and a cheap explanation for the poor to say that no one's looking out for them. Wonder why?

I skimmed this thread. I didn't see this link. Have you guys?

http://www.isa.org/Content/ContentGroups/News/20031/August23/Pintos_Point__Measuring_spirituality_and_the_human_brain.htm

My father believes it too, and he's not what you'd call a "cheeseburger swilling idiot box addicted retard." He's quite the opposite, in fact, though he has his failings. (He's convinced artificial intelligence would be a ginormous mistake, for instance.)

The beliefs of this have nothing to do with idiocy or Christianity, but everything to do with how humans think, in general. You have some really crazy event happen to you--for instance, in my dad's case he almost fell off of a cliffside he was climbing to his death--and manage to save yourself but don't remember how in the heat of the moment for whatever reason(or you get saved by some extremely coincidental thing, like a tree falling at the right time or something) and, in the chaos, you're so grateful and you can't figure out why it happened that you automatically attribute it to some conscious cause that helped you.

It's only attributed to guardian angels in American society because that's what frames our culture. Had we been, say, believers in ancient Norse beliefs, we'd have thought Valkyries or something like that, for example.

As for why people attribute conscious causes to everything, my guess is that's a byproduct of how we evolved. We basically evolved our brains and minds to be able to become aware that others of our species had consciousnesses just like our own, and as a side effect, we start wondering if everything else has one too.

But that's just my speculation.

Kyronea- your grandfathers right. Also, the guy you quoted is too.

ITEM THE THIRD: AMERICAN SELF-INDULGENCE V. OLDER CULTURAL PATTERNS

1) SELF-INDULGENCE: I do agree that the current consumerist, gratification-seeking, "I, me, mine" condition of US society encourages/supports a self-centered worldview that imagines the entire universe, including spiritual entities up to and including the highest god himself as focused on and revolving around the given individual.

We see this attitude equally among those who claim that there are angels watching over their every move as among those who claim that their Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died to cleanse the world of sin and rose from the dead as a promise of the eternal life of the unsinning soul in divine grace, directly, upon request, caused them to lose 20 pounds, cleared up their acne, got them a job promotion, made them governor of Alaska, etc. (I like to call that the "Jesus is my Personal Assistant" mindset.) By the way, I see a similar pattern of thought in those who declare categorically yet without proof that anyone who believes in XYZ (where "XYZ" represents anything they don't believe in) only thinks that way because they are <insert negative personality traits which the critic assumes he/she does not share>.

All such intellectual constructs have the same result: they put the person who professes the belief/opinion in the most desirable, most correct, most approved position, above other people (who are automatically placed lower because they don't believe in angels or because they do believe in angels, etc). In other words, they are all self-indulgent.

The fact is that people who say they believe in angels do so for many different reasons, varying widely from person to person. Only some believe in them for self-indulgent reasons. Others believe in them because they have an animistic mindset, and angels are their local cultural model for what spirits are like. Others believe in them because they are specifically part of their religious doctrines. You can tell the difference in why a person believes in angels based on what they say those angels are and what they do and why they do it.

2) OLDER CULTURAL PATTERNS: Another reason why Americans in particular may believe in angels and, specifically, believe that angels are looking out for them (guardian angels) is that so much of American culture is derived from European culture. European cultures are strongly animistic, even long since Christianization. In particular, European animism took the form of veneration of the dead, in the belief that the dead -- at least for a time -- maintain a connection to the living world and a personal interest in the lives of their family/community members who survive them, along with the ability to guide the living via dreams or subtle clues and to intercede on behalf of the living with other spirits (so that the ghost of one's grandmother could intercede to prevent malicious forest spirits from leading one astray in the wilderness; or could subtly lead one to find just the right item one needs to accomplish a goal; or that ancestors would be on hand to guide one's spirit to the next world after death, etc.).

It may seem self-centered to think that divine otherworldly beings would be concerned with the individual welfare of a person, but it seems rather less presumptuous to think that one's grandmother or parent or sibling would be so concerned with one's personal life. Among many Europeans and some Americans, angels are specifically described as "dead people." You die and you get angel-ified, which seems to me little more than a reduced for the sake of Christianity version of the deification of the dead that was common among pre-Christian European cultures, and which persists to this day in angel-lore and the cults of saints. When Americans talk about angels, there are some who, if asked for specifics, will describe their "guardian angel" as being their grandmother or the spirit of some other person dear to them who has died.

There are other animistic concepts of "guardian spirits" but the ancestral ghosts idea is the most common among European cultures and is one I have read and heard repeatedly from Americans who believe in angels.

This goes against the assumption that all Americans who believe in angels are of the mindset that higher powers are specifically looking out for them and arranging the world to suit them. Granny's ghost cannot, I think, be considered a "higher power" whose concern renders a person special in any way.

ITEM THE FOURTH: DOES IT MATTER?:

No, it doesn't.

This is because belief in angels is so widespread across social and economic classes, cultural backgrounds, education levels, and types and degrees of religious belief, that there is no correlation between the belief in angels and the kind of willfully ignorant worldview that seeks to impose creationism over science in schools, promote religious people as better and more suited to public office than atheists, or strip women and gays of civil rights.

In other words, it's no skin off anyone's nose if someone else believes in angels or that they have a guardian angel that looks out for them. There are many different reasons why people might profess a belief in angels. None of them have anything whatsoever to do with how they treat other people. Therefore, it is no business of other people. If anyone disagrees, I challenge them to show me any instance of modern Americans lobbying for legal establishment of belief in angels or any measure that would in anyway privilege those who believe in angels or penalize those who don't.

In the absence of any attempts to harm or penalize those who do not believe in angels, it seems to me there is little reason to snipe at those who do except as sniping for sniping's sake.

If there is anything that matters in this at all, it would seem to me to be the extent to which it reveals the prejudices of those who criticize others for holding spiritual beliefs.

The bottom line is this: There are many reasons why people may believe in angels. Broad statements as to why people believe these things reveal only the ignorance of those who make such broad statements about such things as spiritual traditions and cultural traditions as well as the facts about what the professed beliefs actually are.

In some Asian cultures they believe the spirits of ancestors assist them with their daily lives. In South America some cultures believe in gods of the forest who assist with hunting and fertility. Native Americans believe in many spirit entities who control all sorts of natural phenomenon.

Are these people stupid? Uneducated? Are they all dupes of evil American culture?

One wonders at the level of intelligence involved in the conclusions I see in this thread.

I like this response. Well stated I think. However I wish I had a guardian angel helping me out I don't think I do. Whoever I do not cast people as ignorant for believing they do.

When there are guardian angels, then some are doing the opposite.

Who have met such an invisible imaginary anti helping creature?

When there are guardian angels, then some are doing the opposite.

Who have met such an invisible imaginary anti helping creature?
Plenty of people claim to have met such creatures.

(I've met tons of them, of course, but they've all been in human form. ;))

well I would be among that half...I was lying in my bed once, and was very upset about something. I knew I wasn't going to sleep so I prayed, God give me your perfect peace. and I felt myself slowly lose consciousness, within 10 seconds I as asleep. I'm sure theres explanations for it, but it helped me...

-snip-
Despite fear of trivialising your uber posting with single-word responses: Bravo!

I don't recall that passage in the Bible that states how everyone has their own personal angelic bodyguard. Anyone here know where that is?

*suspects it's a non-Christian tradition adopted by the more superstitious Catholics a thousand years ago*

Clearly this proves that angels exist and they love America.

Clearly this proves that angels exist and they love America.

Who else are they going to love?:tongue:

Americans are ignorant on a wide range of topics, theology isn't the least of 'em.

What makes a person 'informed' when it comes to theology?

I'm guessing your answer is 'nothing'.

I'm not sure what point you are therefore trying to make.

Who else are they going to love?:tongue:

Maybe Canada?

Who else are they going to love?:tongue:

Maybe Canada?

I was going to say Canada! You stole my line!

I was going to say Canada! You stole my line!

Yes, I finally beat someone to the punchline on here! (opens champagne bottle) :)

Yes, I finally beat someone to the punchline on here! (opens champagne bottle) :)

*stabs*

*stabs*

*bleeds openly from stab wound. Then prays to gaurdian angel to save him. Anvil drops on Ifreann's head. Wound heals instantly.*

Yay! I made this topic relevant again!

Mur already said everything that needs saying better than I could. :)

Mur already said everything that needs saying better than I could. :)
Impossible! You're wittier than me. Get to work! :D


(Thanks, btw.)

I'm wondering why those lovely angels mostly are hitting the US of A.

While USA are the biggest consumers in porn, are counting the most criminals, distributing around the most death penalties and is its country in its whole involved in the most ridiculous wars since ever.
They also count the most serial killers, pedophilias and all kind of bad people in the world. They consume the most oil, eat the most food and are the fattest people on the globe.

So and now they try to convince you that they are visited by angels?
Get real! These are other reasons why angels are just imaginary beings.

I'm wondering why those lovely angels mostly are hitting the US of A.

While USA are the biggest consumers in porn, are counting the most criminals, distributing around the most death penalties and is its country in its whole involved in the most ridiculous wars since ever.
They also count the most serial killers, pedophilias and all kind of bad people in the world. They consume the most oil, eat the most food and are the fattest people on the globe.

So and now they try to convince you that they are visited by angels?
Get real! These are other reasons why angels are just imaginary beings.
All of these are reasons why some Americans desperately hope there's an angel protecting them. Thanks for explaining it so clearly.

The only true God of the USA and the capitalistic world in general is the mighty Mammon. Next time anyone of you meets his or her guardian angel, ask this supernatural being if it's ok to max out your credit cards in order to buy luxuries you don't really need. If they answer positively, you're a servant of Mammon.

I'm wondering why those lovely angels mostly are hitting the US of A.

While USA are the biggest consumers in porn, are counting the most criminals, distributing around the most death penalties and is its country in its whole involved in the most ridiculous wars since ever.
They also count the most serial killers, pedophilias and all kind of bad people in the world. They consume the most oil, eat the most food and are the fattest people on the globe.

So and now they try to convince you that they are visited by angels?
Get real! These are other reasons why angels are just imaginary beings.

What the FUCK! You should say "en general" of course. My GOD. I agree/admit 96% of us are idiots, only concerned with I/America/ignorance/believing everything told to them. I t3h minority. Why else are Rage Against the Machine and System of the Down there?

What makes a person 'informed' when it comes to theology?

I'm guessing your answer is 'nothing'.

I'm not sure what point you are therefore trying to make.

Wouldn't informed in theology mean "having a basic knowledge about theology," just like anything else?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1842179,00.html?cnn=yes

More than half of Americans believe they have been personally helped by a guardian angel. Most incompetent nigh-omnipotent creatures ever!

As a Catholic, I can venture to guess that we make up a vast portion of these people who so believe. The heavenly host are, in Catholic theology, members of the Christian Communion, and their prayers are effectual with God as are those of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Saints, and all Christians in Heaven, Paradise (or Purgatory, or Abraham's Bosom) and on Earth. For Catholics, Angelic intervention prayers are a matter of doctrine, and I imagine the vast amount of Catholics interviewed would give a positive answer more or less automatically.

Americans live in a world catered to instant gratification of the desires of the individual. Is it that surprising that they assume divine providence works in the same way?

Oy, got to agree with you on that. Americans tend to flock to whatever makes them happy, not what is practical or sensible. Also, what most people tend to forget is that "happiness" never lasts forever and that the word comes from "happenstance:an event that might have been arranged although it was really accidental."

More than half of Americans believe they have been personally helped by a guardian angel. Most incompetent nigh-omnipotent creatures ever!

And you know they weren't because...?

I'm wondering why those lovely angels mostly are hitting the US of A.

While USA are the biggest consumers in porn, are counting the most criminals, distributing around the most death penalties and is its country in its whole involved in the most ridiculous wars since ever.
They also count the most serial killers, pedophilias and all kind of bad people in the world. They consume the most oil, eat the most food and are the fattest people on the globe.

So and now they try to convince you that they are visited by angels?
Get real! These are other reasons why angels are just imaginary beings.

First of all the Gods love porn. No question about that.
Second even god killed people, a lot of people, ever hear of that flood.
And big booties are were its at.

I'm wondering why those lovely angels mostly are hitting the US of A.

While USA are the biggest consumers in porn, Source please/thanks.

are counting the most criminals,
distributing around the most death penalties and is its country in its whole involved in the most ridiculous wars since ever. Define 'ridiculous'. Wouldn't a soccer war (http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/sierra/soccer1969.htm) count?

They also count the most serial killers, pedophilias and all kind of bad people in the world. Huh? Where are your stats to back this one up? You think serial killers, skinners and general nutjobs don't exist in high numbers elswhere? I guess the whole child sex trade in Thailand is totally patronised by yanks then. No one else in the world diddles children in high numbers etc.
They consume the most oil, eat the most food and are the fattest people on the globe. Damn, you haven't met many Polynesians then.

So and now they try to convince you that they are visited by angels?
Get real! These are other reasons why angels are just imaginary beings.
So if people you held in less general contempt told you they believed in angels, would you be more inclined to accept their stories?