NationStates Jolt Archive

Or: Left Behind and why it's bad theology.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/page/22/

This is apparently written by a fellow Christian, and mercilessly tears apart the series page-by-page. It not only rips into the theology of the books but also into the writing and technique as well as the level of effort the authors appeared to (not) put into it.

Also interspersed are occasional entries that deal with why it's important for this to be seen for what it is. Here's the most important one I've seen thus far in reading it:

Oct 27, 2003
L.B.: Why this matters

I get an e-mail newsletter from a Christian nonprofit that has been outspoken in its criticism of the war on Iraq. In response to this criticism, they received the following letter:

I believe that we are in the last days as indicated by the Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle John. We will be in Iraq and other areas of the Middle East because it is in God's plan. To condemn President Bush ... is naive. Muslim terrorists will not respond to the love of Christ because they are evil, they have always been evil and they will remain evil. Their hatred cannot be assuaged by compromise, gift, or any form of negotiation. We should kill them and continue to kill them until their blood flows through the Valley of Megiddo as high as the horse's bridles.

-- Ron Schott, Counselor/Consultant

I present this as an example -- albeit an extreme one -- of why the "end times" mania and wretched theology of the Left Behind series is dangerous for everyone, within and without the Christian community.

Swap around a few of the words in this letter and you've got a standard piece of al-Qaeda fundamentalist propaganda. Same world view -- different religions. Actually, that's not true. Kill-the-irredeemable-infidel fundamentalism is always the same religion, no matter what faith it masquerades as a form of.

So I'd suggest giving it a read. It's pretty interesting IMO.

This is quite interesting, but I have a question...or more of a comment really...

Mention is made of the "theology" of the series.

It was my understanding (I'm a non-Christian who avoids reading shitty pulp fiction series) that the Left Behind books were just shitty pulp fiction, right up there with all the other cheap, cheesy serial novel genres. I was not aware that there was any theology to be found in them, just like I was not aware that there was any science to be found in Star Trek novels or marriage advice to be found in romance novels.

To me, the scariest part of the Left Behind books is the idea that there are people in the world who actually treat these books as a theological source or guide or something.

Please tell me that isn't true.

Even if you'd be lying, please tell me that.

EDIT: Oh, crap, it's Joan Didion (being referenced in the blog). She's a real writer. Now I'm even more scared.

This is quite interesting, but I have a question...or more of a comment really...

Mention is made of the "theology" of the series.

It was my understanding (I'm a non-Christian who avoids reading shitty pulp fiction series) that the Left Behind books were just shitty pulp fiction, right up there with all the other cheap, cheesy serial novel genres. I was not aware that there was any theology to be found in them, just like I was not aware that there was any science to be found in Star Trek novels or marriage advice to be found in romance novels.

To me, the scariest part of the Left Behind books is the idea that there are people in the world who actually treat these books as a theological source or guide or something.

Please tell me that isn't true.

Even if you'd be lying, please tell me that.

EDIT: Oh, crap, it's Joan Didion (being referenced in the blog). She's a real writer. Now I'm even more scared.

The Left Behind series is baised on the Premise of the Biblical version of the end times. so the Theology is the whole basis of the book.

it's just one person's idea of what happens after the Rapture. just like "The Day After" is one person's viewpoint of what happens after a nuclear war, "Day After Tomorrow" is someone's viewpoint on Global Warming...

They're based on very loose interpretation of parts of scripture that, being prophetical in nature were quite vague.

Obviously Revelations provides the bulk of the material, with Daniel and Ezekiel thrown in, just for starters.

Of course Ezekiel's prophecy about Magog using it's entire force against Israel was interpreted to mean Russia sending a shitload of nukes that could blow up the world several times over just over to Israel.

Im reading it now. Ill comment when Im done, but so far it makes the whole Left Behind shit seem far scarier then just really bad writing.

The Left Behind series is baised on the Premise of the Biblical version of the end times. so the Theology is the whole basis of the book.

it's just one person's idea of what happens after the Rapture. just like "The Day After" is one person's viewpoint of what happens after a nuclear war, "Day After Tomorrow" is someone's viewpoint on Global Warming...
The Last Temptation of Christ is based on one person's idea of Greek Orthodox theology but nobody ever mistakes it for a religious text. I'm just looking for reassurance -- even if it's false -- that there aren't people out there who think the Left Behind books are anything other than entertainment reading.

Im reading it now. Ill comment when Im done, but so far it makes the whole Left Behind shit seem far scarier then just really bad writing.

Indeed. It also makes the case that while some Evangelist films and books used similar themes as warnings to non-believers, Left Behind is primarily designed for believers so as to say, "when the time comes, you'll see we were right!"

The Last Temptation of Christ is based on one person's idea of Greek Orthodox theology but nobody ever mistakes it for a religious text. I'm just looking for reassurance -- even if it's false -- that there aren't people out there who think the Left Behind books are anything other than entertainment reading.

There are many people who treat it as an accurate portrayal of the end times.

There are many people who treat it as an accurate portrayal of the end times.
Oh....fuck.

OK, I see I'm going to have to make my anti-lunatic moat wider and deeper. And I'm going to need more alligators, too. Sigh.

The Last Temptation of Christ is based on one person's idea of Greek Orthodox theology but nobody ever mistakes it for a religious text. I'm just looking for reassurance -- even if it's false -- that there aren't people out there who think the Left Behind books are anything other than entertainment reading.
there was a 60-minutes piece on in a while back. they contended that there are millions of fundamentalists who take the left behind series as seriously as they take the bible--without that inerrant word of god part included.

there was a 60-minutes piece on in a while back. they contended that there are millions of fundamentalists who take the left behind series as seriously as they take the bible--without that inerrant word of god part included.
I actually do know this, I was just hoping someone would lie to me, even though I'd know it was a lie, because you know...well...it's all getting to be a bit much for me lately.

The thing that scares me the most about these people is the question of how long they are willing to wait for their favorite episode of the Left Behind books to come true for them. They don't strike me as being like those Anabaptists, who seem content to just wait forever, even after missing several deadlines. These Left Behind nuts seem like they'd be willing to cosplay the whole thing, only with real weapons.

The Last Temptation of Christ is based on one person's idea of Greek Orthodox theology but nobody ever mistakes it for a religious text. I'm just looking for reassurance -- even if it's false -- that there aren't people out there who think the Left Behind books are anything other than entertainment reading. *raises hand* I'm one who considers those books and movies to be nothing more than fiction.

Guess what I was trying to say (and failed miserably) is that people will believe in what they believe.

there was a 60-minutes piece on in a while back. they contended that there are millions of fundamentalists who take the left behind series as seriously as they take the bible--without that inerrant word of god part included.

and I remember after "The Day After" was shown, how people said that was an accurate portrayal of life after a nuclear war.

I actually do know this, I was just hoping someone would lie to me, even though I'd know it was a lie, because you know...well...it's all getting to be a bit much for me lately.

The thing that scares me the most about these people is the question of how long they are willing to wait for their favorite episode of the Left Behind books to come true for them. They don't strike me as being like those Anabaptists, who seem content to just wait forever, even after missing several deadlines. These Left Behind nuts seem like they'd be willing to cosplay the whole thing, only with real weapons.
ohpfft

what does 60-minutes know? those hacks make shit up all the time.

no true christian is going to mix fiction with the word of god. what a silly notion.

its all going to be OK.

Scariest part:

The first words of Left Behind are "Rayford Steele," the protagonist's name.

It sounds like a porn star's name -- and in a sense it is. The Left Behind series is dispensational porno, but it's more than that. One of the most disturbing things about this book is the way LaHaye and Jenkins portray men, women and the relationships between them.

Note that Tim LaHaye's wife is something of a professional misogynist. She runs the 500,000-member "Concerned Women for America" -- jokingly referred to by its critics as "Ladies Against Women." For years, while Beverly LaHaye's husband pastored a church in San Diego, Mrs. L. spent most of her time 3,000 miles away, in Washington, D.C., running a large organization committed to, among other things, telling women they should stay at home and sacrifice their careers for their husbands. She is not an ironic woman and doesn't seem to find any of this inconsistent. (Nor, as I found out firsthand, does she appreciate jokes about the Freudian implications of the view from her L'Enfante Plaza office window. Sometimes the Washington Monument is just a cigar.)

Our porn star hero, Rayford Steele, interacts with women just like any porn star does -- minus, of course, the sex. It's all about dominance, exploitation, titillation and the stroking of -- in this case -- egos.

The character Rayford Steele is, like the authors, no longer a young man. Younger authors might not have been compelled to give their protagonists names -- "Steele" and "Buck" -- that seem such a blatant assertion of male virility. Bev is apparently not the only LaHaye who seems oblivious to phallic imagery.

If you're thinking I'm reading too much into all this, that this theme isn't really as present in the text as I'm making it out to be, consider the opening lines:

Rayford Steele's mind was on a woman he had never touched. With his fully loaded 747 on autopilot ...

That's more than just subtext.

The name of the woman about whom Steele is fantasizing is "Hattie Durham." (Eldridge Cleaver could have written volumes trying to unpack all the Southern sexual myths crammed into that name.)

A paragraph later we read that Steele's wife, Irene, was "attractive and vivacious enough, even at 40." The authors do not say "enough" for what, but the choice of adjectives -- the first description we have of Irene -- is tellingly reductive. Then there's that "even at 40." L&J would not approve of an older, steely, fully loaded man betraying his wife for a younger trophy bride -- but they sure seem to appreciate the impulse.

Irene's 40-ish attractiveness cannot compete with Hattie's youthful good looks. The first thing L&J tell us about any female character is whether or not she is attractive. Hattie is, they tell us, "drop dead gorgeous." Like so much in this book, Hattie's beauty eludes the authors' powers of description, forcing them to fall back on cliche. There are enough hackneyed phrases in the first chapter of this book for a whole album of Bon Jovi songs.

Despite L&J telling us that Steele's "libido" had "caused his mind to wander" (aha -- somebody has been reading Freud!), their description of Steele's behavior toward Miss Durham betrays another motive at work:

They had spent time together, chatting for hours over drinks or dinner, sometimes with coworkers, sometimes not. He had not returned so much as one brush of a finger, but his eyes had held her gaze, and he could only assume his smile had made its point.

Steele's "libido" seems firmly in check. He keeps it -- like Hattie -- subservient to his need for emotional dominance. Throughout the book, Rayford keeps Hattie in her place -- waiting for signals from him, but always withholding those signals. The authors seem to regard this as a sign of Steele's virtue and self control, but it reads more like something deeply kinked and cruel. He gets off on this.

On the third page of the book we read:

He was no prude, but Rayford had never been unfaithful to Irene. He'd had plenty of opportunities. He had long felt guilty about a private necking session he enjoyed at a company Christmas party more than 12 years before. Irene had stayed home, uncomfortably past her ninth month carrying their surprise tagalong son, Ray Jr.

By this point, Rayford Steele's warped sexuality -- the book's primary theme thus far -- has become so blatant that one begins to hope the authors are attempting something more subtle and artful. Perhaps Steele is an antihero -- an unreliable narrator like something out of Nabakov? (The voice is not first person, but our omniscient narrator is, so far, focused on Steele's P.O.V.)

But little in the rest of the book supports such a view. The only unreliable narrators here are the authors themselves, apparently agreeing with Steele that his "private necking session" (who talks like this?) with a nameless, undescribed, inconsequential female does not constitute "unfaithfulness" to his pregnant wife.

*raises hand* I'm one who considers those books and movies to be nothing more than fiction.

Guess what I was trying to say (and failed miserably) is that people will believe in what they believe.



and I remember after "The Day After" was shown, how people said that was an accurate portrayal of life after a nuclear war.
how old are you? that movie is from '83!

I actually do know this, I was just hoping someone would lie to me, even though I'd know it was a lie, because you know...well...it's all getting to be a bit much for me lately.

The thing that scares me the most about these people is the question of how long they are willing to wait for their favorite episode of the Left Behind books to come true for them. They don't strike me as being like those Anabaptists, who seem content to just wait forever, even after missing several deadlines. These Left Behind nuts seem like they'd be willing to cosplay the whole thing, only with real weapons.

One stage further actually.

Left Behind: Eternal Forces (PC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces

In this game, you get to go out and butcher the forces of evil. You know - rock bands, people who went to college. Secularists.

how old are you? that movie is from '83!

old enough. ;)

I was a teenager in 83...

One stage further actually.

Left Behind: Eternal Forces (PC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left_Behind:_Eternal_Forces

In this game, you get to go out and butcher the forces of evil. You know - rock bands, people who went to college. Secularists.

True, killing people loses you Spirit points, but a quick prayer after the fact'll fix that right up.

That's probably more of a gameplay thing than a worldview, but still.

old enough. ;)

I was a teenager in 83...
ohmygod youre old! i thought you were maybe 25

The Left Behind series of books is the DaVinci Code for Christians. Take some fact and a little theology, sprinkle in some intriguing, but completely made up, historical matters (Left Behind used "future" history and DaVinci Code was "past" history, but you get the idea), through in some fast paced good vs. evil action and presto, best seller.

True, killing people loses you Spirit points, but a quick prayer after the fact'll fix that right up.

That's probably more of a gameplay thing than a worldview, but still.

It's scary, though... the biggest offer (apart, obviously, from electronic bibles) that Christianity has put into the arena of PCs and PC gaming... is a wargame... where you get to kill the heathen, guilt free.

ohmygod youre old! i thought you were maybe 25

Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. :p

Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. :p
hahaha ya but you still die after a while no matter how immature you might be.

The Left Behind series of books is the DaVinci Code for Christians. Take some fact and a little theology, sprinkle in some intriguing, but completely made up, historical matters (Left Behind used "future" history and DaVinci Code was "past" history, but you get the idea), through in some fast paced good vs. evil action and presto, best seller.

Except the writers of Left Behind werent even as bad as Dan Brown.


That just shows you how little I think of Dan Brown.

It's scary, though... the biggest offer (apart, obviously, from electronic bibles) that Christianity has put into the arena of PCs and PC gaming... is a wargame... where you get to kill the heathen, guilt free.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1f/BibleAdventuresBoxart.jpg/256px-BibleAdventuresBoxart.jpg

ohpfft

what does 60-minutes know? those hacks make shit up all the time.

no true christian is going to mix fiction with the word of god. what a silly notion.

its all going to be OK.
Thanks. *takes deep, measured breaths* Thanks, Ash. I needed that.

this might actually make you feel better....

christine wicker's "the fall of the evangelical nation" says that the country isnt really 25% nutcase fundamentalists. its more like 7.5% and falling.

this might actually make you feel better....

christine wicker's "the fall of the evangelical nation" says that the country isnt really 25% nutcase fundamentalists. its more like 7.5% and falling.

Any idea what she bases this on? Is this a book, or an article somewhere?

Any idea what she bases this on? Is this a book, or an article somewhere?
its a book.

its based on looking at how many people are double and triple counted in the rolls of the evangelical churches among other things that ill look up if you insist.

its a book.

its based on looking at how many people are double and triple counted in the rolls of the evangelical churches among other things that ill look up if you insist.

I don't insist. I'll do some digging, though. Thanks.

this might actually make you feel better....

christine wicker's "the fall of the evangelical nation" says that the country isnt really 25% nutcase fundamentalists. its more like 7.5% and falling.

:fluffle: Thank you!!! Yes!! I have often suspected this -- that they were all just some loud-mouthed little club being given importance FAR beyond their worth -- but I never had anything to go on. I'll look that book up.

this might actually make you feel better....

christine wicker's "the fall of the evangelical nation" says that the country isnt really 25% nutcase fundamentalists. its more like 7.5% and falling.

If only I could believe that were true.

I don't insist. I'll do some digging, though. Thanks.
if you find out that she is full of shit, dont post it until tomorrow, muravyets needs her sleep!

if you find out that she is full of shit, dont post it until tomorrow, muravyets needs her sleep!

Oh? In that case I'll be sure to post it at around midnight. :D

If only I could believe that were true.
its the "and falling" part that you might believe.

the children of the megachurch generation arent interested in instutional churches the way their parents are. they are more spiritual and less "get together with 10,000 of your closest friends to worship jesus" than their parents are.

its not that they dont believe so much as they are tired of being told HOW to believe.

Oh? In that case I'll be sure to post it at around midnight. :D
You bastard! :tongue:

You bastard! :tongue:

I might even parcel it up, post a few sections of it at midnight, and then the rest at 12:30. :p

I might even parcel it up, post a few sections of it at midnight, and then the rest at 12:30. :p
Quick, somebody find me a particularly juicy chapter of Left Behind to wish on this evil git. :D

Or: Left Behind and why it's bad theology.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/page/22/

This is apparently written by a fellow Christian, and mercilessly tears apart the series page-by-page. It not only rips into the theology of the books but also into the writing and technique as well as the level of effort the authors appeared to (not) put into it.

Also interspersed are occasional entries that deal with why it's important for this to be seen for what it is. Here's the most important one I've seen thus far in reading it:



So I'd suggest giving it a read. It's pretty interesting IMO.

Does anyone have access to the full essay? I'm not about to pay three bucks just for an essay.

As an interesting thought-question, setting aside the ridiculousness of the so-called "End Times" described in Left Behind, if somehow, in some crazy way, a version of that did happen...would you convert to Christianity? Or would you maintain your other beliefs, whatever they are?

As an interesting thought-question, setting aside the ridiculousness of the so-called "End Times" described in Left Behind, if somehow, in some crazy way, a version of that did happen...would you convert to Christianity? Or would you maintain your other beliefs, whatever they are?

Still no evidence for Christianity, even if a whole bunch of people went poof. For all you know, the Alpha Centaurians are kidnapping people to use as ingredients in their galactic buffet.

Mention is made of the "theology" of the series.

It was my understanding (I'm a non-Christian who avoids reading shitty pulp fiction series) that the Left Behind books were just shitty pulp fiction, right up there with all the other cheap, cheesy serial novel genres. I was not aware that there was any theology to be found in them, just like I was not aware that there was any science to be found in Star Trek novels or marriage advice to be found in romance novels.
I can assure you that you are quite wrong on that front. People often act out the roles of movie or story characters that they identify with. It is most common among children, but even adults subconsciously adopt language and mannerisms.

Still no evidence for Christianity, even if a whole bunch of people went poof. For all you know, the Alpha Centaurians are kidnapping people to use as ingredients in their galactic buffet.
of which, those who are lean and low in fat would definately be taken. *nods*

Still no evidence for Christianity, even if a whole bunch of people went poof. For all you know, the Alpha Centaurians are kidnapping people to use as ingredients in their galactic buffet.

Um, let's say there is proof. (How, I don't know, having not read the books and never intending to.)

As an interesting thought-question, setting aside the ridiculousness of the so-called "End Times" described in Left Behind, if somehow, in some crazy way, a version of that did happen...would you convert to Christianity? Or would you maintain your other beliefs, whatever they are?
I'll join whichever side/option lets me kill the shit out of more things. If Satan offers me magic powers, I'd totally be there.

Or: Left Behind and why it's bad theology.

http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/page/22/

This is apparently written by a fellow Christian, and mercilessly tears apart the series page-by-page. It not only rips into the theology of the books but also into the writing and technique as well as the level of effort the authors appeared to (not) put into it.

Also interspersed are occasional entries that deal with why it's important for this to be seen for what it is. Here's the most important one I've seen thus far in reading it:



So I'd suggest giving it a read. It's pretty interesting IMO.

Wow, that whole excerpt seems pretty extremist.

I can assure you that you are quite wrong on that front. People often act out the roles of movie or story characters that they identify with. It is most common among children, but even adults subconsciously adopt language and mannerisms.
Well, that explains how the Jerry Springer show gets all its material.

As an interesting thought-question, setting aside the ridiculousness of the so-called "End Times" described in Left Behind, if somehow, in some crazy way, a version of that did happen...would you convert to Christianity? Or would you maintain your other beliefs, whatever they are?
A god that in any way resembled that craptastic nonsense is not worth worshipping. No number of miracles or awesome smackdowns with "His mighty hand" or whatever could possibly make up for that dumbassery.

A god that in any way resembled that craptastic nonsense is not worth worshipping. No number of miracles or awesome smackdowns with "His mighty hand" or whatever could possibly make up for that dumbassery.

Unless he gave me super badass magic powers.

Does anyone have access to the full essay? I'm not about to pay three bucks just for an essay.

What? I haven't been asked to pay for anything.

Unless he gave me super badass magic powers.
Like the magic power to make millions of dollars selling fake-religious bullshit fantasy-trips to rubes?

Like the magic power to make millions of dollars selling fake-religious bullshit fantasy-trips to rubes?

I was thinking like necromancy, but this works too.

I was thinking like necromancy, but this works too.
Oh, I'll bet talking to the fans of this stuff at book signings is a lot like necromancy.

Well, that explains how the Jerry Springer show gets all its material.
That explains how human society functions at all. If people didn't emulate fictional characters and draw real life lessons from stories, we'd have no concept of Goodness, Love, Order or any of the other little lies that we tell ourselves. Instead, we'd just be a bunch of assholes crouching around small fires and beating the shit out of each other with whatever came to hand.

Oh, I'll bet talking to the fans of this stuff at book signings is a lot like necromancy.

Awesome and a means to create a unstopable zombie horde to do ones bidding?


Your propbably right minus the awesome part.

That explains how human society functions at all. If people didn't emulate fictional characters and draw real life lessons from stories, we'd have no concept of Goodness, Love, Order or any of the other little lies that we tell ourselves. Instead, we'd just be a bunch of assholes crouching around small fires and beating the shit out of each other with whatever came to hand.
Or we'd just make up pretentious junk of our own...

*not referring to the post above. no, really, I'm not...honest*

I was thinking like necromancy, but this works too.
Why would you want to talk to dead people? It is like talking to the elderly, but 20 times worse. All they do is whine about how long it's been since your last seance, and why do you wear your hair like that, and don't get them started on the weather in Hell. It is always so cold, can't you send some sweaters?

Why would you want to talk to dead people? It is like talking to the elderly, but 20 times worse. All they do is whine about how long it's been since your last seance, and why do you wear your hair like that, and don't get them started on the weather in Hell. It is always so cold, can't you send some sweaters?

I dont want to talk to them. I want to raise them as an army and send them off to do my bidding.

I dont want to talk to them. I want to raise them as an army and send them off to do my bidding.
So they can drive your enemies to suicide with their rambling stories, questions that aren't about anything, and complaints about drafts. :D

EDIT: At least I hope that will be the bidding you'll send them out to do, because if you want your zombie horde to pick up pizza for you, it will be cold by the time you get it.

Or we'd just make up pretentious junk of our own...

*not referring to the post above. no, really, I'm not...honest*
Sarcasm is the last resort of the ignorant and the defeated.

Sarcasm is the last resort of the ignorant and the defeated.
You know, it's strange, but often, when I start talking to you, I get this feeling like you're sucking the air out of my lungs.

What? I haven't been asked to pay for anything.

The essay isn't reproduced anywhere, unless I'm just really dumb.

If I am, please link me.

Muravyets: Oh, I agree, absolutely.

But what if the alternative is eternal damnation?

The essay isn't reproduced anywhere, unless I'm just really dumb.

If I am, please link me.

Muravyets: Oh, I agree, absolutely.

But what if the alternative is eternal damnation?
As long as hell is not full of the Raptured, save me a seat next to the buffet. I'll go anywhere they are not.

You know, it's strange, but often, when I start talking to you, I get this feeling like you're sucking the air out of my lungs.
I'm confused; are you accusing me of being a bad kisser, some sort of evil wizard trying to steal your soul or what?

The essay isn't reproduced anywhere, unless I'm just really dumb.

If I am, please link me.

Muravyets: Oh, I agree, absolutely.

But what if the alternative is eternal damnation?

I'm not sure I understand what essay you're referring to. The whole thing is essentially a blog.

As long as hell is not full of the Raptured, save me a seat next to the buffet. I'll go anywhere they are not.
Yeah, me too.
I'm not sure I understand what essay you're referring to. The whole thing is essentially a blog.
...the essay quoted in the blog? The one that it's about? The one on the New York Review website?

That's what we were reading, right?

Well, that explains how the Jerry Springer show gets all its material.

Notice that very few incestuous affairs and relationships come from blue states in comparison to the evangelical, abstinent red.

:p

ohmygod youre old! i thought you were maybe 25

Nice perspective there, you presumptive whelp. ;)

Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. :p

Amen. I saw the The Day After at 12. Only the actual attack scenes were scarier than the really bad acting and dialogue.

its the "and falling" part that you might believe.

the children of the megachurch generation arent interested in instutional churches the way their parents are. they are more spiritual and less "get together with 10,000 of your closest friends to worship jesus" than their parents are.

its not that they dont believe so much as they are tired of being told HOW to believe.

Amen again. I was on my way to hike Sunday morning, and was asked by a kid in my building, as I was on my way out, where I was going (I was clearly not dressed for what they were dressed for -- boots, Camelbak, map, hiking poles, etc.). I said "I'm headed out to hike to the top of Mt. Spokane." When the adorable and impeccably dressed moppet asked "why don't you go to church?" I looked her right in the eyes and said "who says I'm not?" The look I got from her mother as they continued toward the elevator (and I to the stairs) was priceless. I can only imagine the conversation that took place in that elevator and on their way to the building they go to once a week to compare clothing. I hope she asked some very interesting questions.

Notice that very few incestuous affairs and relationships come from blue states in comparison to the evangelical, abstinent red.

Really? I realize that you're joking, but just in case, there's no such thing as an entire state that thinks or believes or acts in one way or another. It's that kind of thinking that allows political parties to further divide the public. That's one thing of which we need no more.

My home state is considered "blue", but it's such a bad label. Most of the eastern 2/3s of the state and much of the western 1/3 is at least purple if not burgundy or just plain red, if we're using that tired and inaccurate trope. Enough people live in liberal-voting Seattle and the metro regions of Vancouver (N suburb of Portland, OR), Tacoma, Spokane, Everett, Bellevue and Bellingham to just outweigh those in the suburban and rural parts of the state, where the population is less dense. In fact, some are saying that Washington is becoming a swing state -- something it's never been in recent memory.

I've actually read the left behind books (not willingly of course), and yes they were absolutely awful, awful books. However, I would say they were no more theological than any Narnia book. It's just essentially a vague story of the rapture but set in modern times with the idea that people have a second chance after the rapture.

I'm confused; are you accusing me of being a bad kisser, some sort of evil wizard trying to steal your soul or what?
No, just no-fun. Grinding. Pedantic. Ponderous. Etc. *gasp*

I'm not sure I understand what essay you're referring to. The whole thing is essentially a blog.
I noticed the Joan Didion essay that it refers to in part isn't fully available.

Notice that very few incestuous affairs and relationships come from blue states in comparison to the evangelical, abstinent red.

:p
Well, they're not allowed to screw their boy/girlfriends, so they gotta get action somehow, right?

Really? I realize that you're joking, but just in case, there's no such thing as an entire state that thinks or believes or acts in one way or another. It's that kind of thinking that allows political parties to further divide the public. That's one thing of which we need no more.

My home state is considered "blue", but it's such a bad label. Most of the eastern 2/3s of the state and much of the western 1/3 is at least purple if not burgundy or just plain red, if we're using that tired and inaccurate trope. Enough people live in liberal-voting Seattle and the metro regions of Vancouver (N suburb of Portland, OR), Tacoma, Spokane, Everett, Bellevue and Bellingham to just outweigh those in the suburban and rural parts of the state, where the population is less dense. In fact, some are saying that Washington is becoming a swing state -- something it's never been in recent memory.
Just to undermine the seriousness of your post, I really thought that by pointing out that no state is uniform in the views of all its residents, you were going to argue that there are plenty of incestuous Springer-guests from blue states, too. Or that you were going to take "swing state" in a different direction. I'm only a little disappointed.

I've actually read the left behind books (not willingly of course), and yes they were absolutely awful, awful books. However, I would say they were no more theological than any Narnia book. It's just essentially a vague story of the rapture but set in modern times with the idea that people have a second chance after the rapture.
Which makes perfect sense. I'm going to go out on a limb, though, and guess that no one is hanging on every word of the Narnia Chronicles as being an accurate depiction of how God's reality works that they should live by and depend upon and treat as seriously as they do the Bible, the way some people seem to be doing with the Left Behind series.

I'm going to go out on a limb, though, and guess that no one is hanging on every word of the Narnia Chronicles as being an accurate depiction of how God's reality works that they should live by and depend upon and treat as seriously as they do the Bible, the way some people seem to be doing with the Left Behind series.
Perhaps not, but I know of folk who see the Chronicles of Narnia as a guide to good Christian living.

Perhaps not, but I know of folk who see the Chronicles of Narnia as a guide to good Christian living.
Okay, that's not good -- depending on how far they take it.

Yes, it's true that people often pick up on fictional characters as models for how they would like to be, or they pick up on a fictional reality as illustrating something they think is true or good, or they find something in a novel that reflects some inner feeling about themselves and helps them to put that feeling into a larger life-context.

But I'm talking about the kinds of people who would say, "Yeah, well, when THIS occurs just as described right here in this here book, THEN you'll be sorry, and I won't."

I personally don't know of anyone who thinks there really is a Narnia or that the beings in that story are real and really doing the kinds of things that are in those books. Unlike the kinds of Left Behind freaks who don't just read the books for a thrill and a laugh but actually think the things described in them are going to happen, as described, in real life.

And maybe they want them to happen. That "maybe" is what scares me about such people.

I personally don't know of anyone who thinks there really is a Narnia or that the beings in that story are real and really doing the kinds of things that are in those books.
Neither do I; they know it's allegorical.

All I mean is there are many who take the collected books as a good introduction to modern Christianity, or at least some of its themes.

Just to undermine the seriousness of your post, I really thought that by pointing out that no state is uniform in the views of all its residents, you were going to argue that there are plenty of incestuous Springer-guests from blue states, too. Or that you were going to take "swing state" in a different direction. I'm only a little disappointed.

It was late, I was tired. I am a cad for disappointing you. I will say, though, that plenty of wacky, Springer-worthy things happen in blue states, and that Washington has a sizable polyamory community (and the ones I've met are, of course unattractive).

Amen. I saw the The Day After at 12. Only the actual attack scenes were scarier than the really bad acting and dialogue.
hey, it was a made-for-TV movie. so you can't expect Oscar winners y'a know. :tongue:

hey, it was a made-for-TV movie. so you can't expect Oscar winners y'a know. :tongue:

You mean besides Jason Robards (two Oscars), John Lithgow (nominated twice for Oscar, won several Emmys), Amy Madigan (one Oscar nomination, one Golden Globe win), and JoBeth Williams (one Oscar nomination), and John Cullum (Emmy nomination)?

Yeah, I know. It was the director's fault -- wait, nope. One Oscar nomination for Nicholas Meyer.

Must've been the script. Yeah. Edward Hume was only nominated for an Emmy and won the lousy Humanitas Prize for Common Ground.

Sorry. Couldn't resist!

Bible fanfic is one of the oldest genres. Booooooooring.

Now if they'd gone with some slash fic, then maybe I'd check it out.

No, just no-fun. Grinding. Pedantic. Ponderous. Etc. *gasp*
Ah, how sorry for you. Maybe if you didn't talk such complete bollocks all the time, I'd be less inclined to argue.

You mean besides Jason Robards (two Oscars), John Lithgow (nominated twice for Oscar, won several Emmys), Amy Madigan (one Oscar nomination, one Golden Globe win), and JoBeth Williams (one Oscar nomination), and John Cullum (Emmy nomination)?

Yeah, I know. It was the director's fault -- wait, nope. One Oscar nomination for Nicholas Meyer.

Must've been the script. Yeah. Edward Hume was only nominated for an Emmy and won the lousy Humanitas Prize for Common Ground.

Sorry. Couldn't resist!

Aww... and I was hoping you were going to say "Oscars are not given for Television" :D ;)

Ah, how sorry for you. Maybe if you didn't talk such complete bollocks all the time, I'd be less inclined to argue.
Or if maybe if you were less humorless and hostile, I'd be more willing to play. Here I'll help both of us. /ignore.

It was late, I was tired. I am a cad for disappointing you. I will say, though, that plenty of wacky, Springer-worthy things happen in blue states, and that Washington has a sizable polyamory community (and the ones I've met are, of course unattractive).
Ah, that's much better. :D

One should think the poor writing would be enough to deter someone from reading it...

Aww... and I was hoping you were going to say "Oscars are not given for Television" :D ;)

Dammit. I'm disappointing EVERYone.

The quote was "you can't expect Oscar winners".

And well, as I showed, we actually can (Robards, twice).

how old are you? that movie is from '83!


Jason Robards, hanging round in the ashes....Salad days, salad days....

Threads, the brit version, was a more bleak view of things.

I accidentally rented a video based on the "left behind" series,,,,it didn't dawn on me till about half an hour in what was going on....

One should think the poor writing would be enough to deter someone from reading it...

Uh...look at the target audience for those books and think about your post for a minute. Do they want to think critically about what they believe or expect characters to defy stereotypes?

Bible fanfic is one of the oldest genres. Booooooooring.

Now if they'd gone with some slash fic, then maybe I'd check it out.
I found out something new in response to your post: There's a Bible section on Fanfiction.net.

Now I wish I hadn't.

I found out something new in response to your post: There's a Bible section on Fanfiction.net.

Now I wish I hadn't.

any slash stories there?

Bible fanfic is one of the oldest genres. Booooooooring.

Now if they'd gone with some slash fic, then maybe I'd check it out.

There was slash in the Bible, if you know where to look... :)

any slash stories there?
Please don't make me look.

Please.

There was slash in the Bible, if you know where to look... :)

Do we really want to know what really happened at The Last Supper?

:D

Do we really want to know what really happened at The Last Supper?

:D

They decided to eat out? :p

Uh...look at the target audience for those books and think about your post for a minute. Do they want to think critically about what they believe or expect characters to defy stereotypes?I gave the novels a fair chance back when Corneliu or someone started posting about the game they were making to go with it. I read the first couple pages they had up on their site. I could have tolerated the sunday school parable style of the plot if it hadn't been for the abysmal failure to develop a background story. The history that the books plotted out in order to conform with biblical prophesy (in and of its own not a bad thing, if done right) took about as long as I did typing this up.

But I guess you're right: Where I demanded a more detailed description of the Ethiopian invasion of Israel, including political backgrounds that would explain why a very Christian nation such as Ethiopia would suddenly ally with predominately muslim nations and Russia to invade Israel, than "Ethiopia, to everyone's surprise, invaded Israel as they had been secretly planning" the target audience likely thought "Gee, that's exactly how it is in the bible!"

Indeed. It also makes the case that while some Evangelist films and books used similar themes as warnings to non-believers, Left Behind is primarily designed for believers so as to say, "when the time comes, you'll see we were right!"

Mental masturbation, eh?

"Left Behind" did not sell very well in France, probably because of the title, Gauche Derrie`re

any slash stories there?

Yes.

"oh Jesus" said John, panting, "fill me with the holy spirit..."

D:

D:

:p

As a Lutheran (with a bachelors in theology), I too disagree vehemently with the Left Behind series. Christians who subscribe to the highly questionable theology of the series fail to realize that the events in Revelation have already come to pass numerous times... Tyrants who persecuted the Church have risen numerous times, there have been too many wars to count, and so on and so forth since Christ's ascension. All that has yet to be fullfilled is the second coming itself. The fatal flaw in this evengelical view is it basically makes Christ's return predictable. Seeing as Christ himself stated that no one knows the hour of his return except the Father and that he will return, "like a thief in the night," I think it pretty much debunks the whole story behind Left Behind.

I don't want to call Left Behind heretical, but I think it comes pretty darn close.

Dammit. I'm disappointing EVERYone.

The quote was "you can't expect Oscar winners".

And well, as I showed, we actually can (Robards, twice). I bow to your logic. :hail:

Please don't make me look.

Please.

ok, you don't have to look.
But I know you will
:tongue:

I don't want to call Left Behind heretical...

I'll do it for you.

The "Left Behind" series is heretical.


You owe me a beer. :D

(I think there's a strong argument for Rapture Theology being heresy, personally - so I have NO objections to calling it). :)

Please don't make me look.

Please.

You don't have to look. I already know Bible slash exists in abundance. Some of it makes sense (e.g. David/Jonathan), some of it is a bit weird but at least semi-plausible (e.g. Jesus/Judas), and some of it is just......special (e.g. God/Moses/Aaron/Pharaoh). :tongue:

As a Lutheran (with a bachelors in theology), I too disagree vehemently with the Left Behind series. Christians who subscribe to the highly questionable theology of the series fail to realize that the events in Revelation have already come to pass numerous times... Tyrants who persecuted the Church have risen numerous times, there have been too many wars to count, and so on and so forth since Christ's ascension. All that has yet to be fullfilled is the second coming itself. The fatal flaw in this evengelical view is it basically makes Christ's return predictable. Seeing as Christ himself stated that no one knows the hour of his return except the Father and that he will return, "like a thief in the night," I think it pretty much debunks the whole story behind Left Behind.

I don't want to call Left Behind heretical, but I think it comes pretty darn close.

Although I haven't read the Left Behind series, I am familiar with the rapture theology and their proponents. Like you though, my theology lies elsewhere, however, I think you underestimate the foundations of the apocalyptical theology prophesies. I would suggest that the church has always held that the last times (though unknowable for when) are anticipated to be a time of trials and tribulations, and in addition to saying no one knows the day nor the hour, he also said; Matthew 25:13: Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. What are we to watch for if we aren't going to be given clues and can't see it coming? Again though, although I'm not one of them I'm not going to attack the apocalyptical groups simply for being apocalyptical, it has enough history behind it that it leads us to believe that some of the first Christians were apocalyptical too.

I'll do it for you.

The "Left Behind" series is heretical.


You owe me a beer. :D

(I think there's a strong argument for Rapture Theology being heresy, personally - so I have NO objections to calling it). :)

Yay for beer! Lutheran beverages all around... *tosses Grave_n_idle a Guinness (it's what I'm drinking as I type this, so if you don't like frothy dark beers, you're SOL)*

On a more serious note, I prefer to use the word "heretic" sparingly as it is a VERY strong word.. From the establishment of the Holy Roman Catholic Church through the modern era, being called a "heretic" by the Church meant you'd be extra-crispy on a pole the next day. As with any word, using it too much deminishes the meaning of it to the point where it becomes almost everyday language.

If I was interested enough to write out a well researched theological examination on the issue, I could probably make the reasonable conclusion that rapture theology is heretical, but I have enough to do as a history grad student.

Although I haven't read the Left Behind series, I am familiar with the rapture theology and their proponents. Like you though, my theology lies elsewhere, however, I think you underestimate the foundations of the apocalyptical theology prophesies. I would suggest that the church has always held that the last times (though unknowable for when) are anticipated to be a time of trials and tribulations, and in addition to saying no one knows the day nor the hour, he also said; Matthew 25:13: Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. What are we to watch for if we aren't going to be given clues and can't see it coming? Again though, although I'm not one of them I'm not going to attack the apocalyptical groups simply for being apocalyptical, it has enough history behind it that it leads us to believe that some of the first Christians were apocalyptical too.


The problem with that mindset, though, is we've BEEN in the end times since Christ's ascension. Trials and tribulations were a fact of life for Christians since then and are still an issue to this very day in some parts of the world. The events explained in Revelation are recurring themes with the only things left unfulfilled is Christ's return and with that, the final judgement, and Satan's doom.

The problem with that mindset, though, is we've BEEN in the end times since Christ's ascension. Trials and tribulations were a fact of life for Christians since then and are still an issue to this very day in some parts of the world. The events explained in Revelation are recurring themes with the only things left unfulfilled is Christ's return and with that, the final judgement, and Satan's doom.

Exactly. And they're waiting for it.

EDIT: Like I said before though, I haven't even read the Left Behind series, I'm not defending it, I can't. I'm talking about the apocalyptical Christians that buy that stuff.

Exactly. And they're waiting for it.

EDIT: Like I said before though, I haven't even read the Left Behind series, I'm not defending it, I can't. I'm talking about the apocalyptical Christians that buy that stuff.

But they're also looking for the rapture first, then seven years of tribulation, the rise of singular world government, everyone starts walking around town with '666' written on them if they support the anti-Christ.... In other words, there will be clear and irrefutable signs of the second coming before Christ's return. That's what I mean about the rapture deminishing the unexpectedness of the final judgement. As a Lutheran, I believe that Christ's return is just going to happen... One minute he's up there, the next minute he's down here. Heck, for all we know the judgement could be taking place ten minutes from now and we'd be none the wiser until it happened.

he also said; Matthew 25:13: Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour. What are we to watch for if we aren't going to be given clues and can't see it coming?

The Second Coming?

It doesn't HAVE to be watching for signs and portents. Indeed, I can't realistically find a way to reconcile THAT aspect of Rapture Theology at all.

Yay for beer! Lutheran beverages all around... *tosses Grave_n_idle a Guinness (it's what I'm drinking as I type this, so if you don't like frothy dark beers, you're SOL)*

On a more serious note, I prefer to use the word "heretic" sparingly as it is a VERY strong word.. From the establishment of the Holy Roman Catholic Church through the modern era, being called a "heretic" by the Church meant you'd be extra-crispy on a pole the next day. As with any word, using it too much deminishes the meaning of it to the point where it becomes almost everyday language.

If I was interested enough to write out a well researched theological examination on the issue, I could probably make the reasonable conclusion that rapture theology is heretical, but I have enough to do as a history grad student.

Well good... Guinness is the only beer I'll drink. :) I got lucky.

I'm not afraid to use the term 'heretic' to describe something that is clearly 'heresy', although I can understand why established churches are more loathe to do so (when you consider that the reason we HAVE different churches, might well be called 'heresy').

Well good... Guinness is the only beer I'll drink. :) I got lucky.

I'm not afraid to use the term 'heretic' to describe something that is clearly 'heresy', although I can understand why established churches are more loathe to do so (when you consider that the reason we HAVE different churches, might well be called 'heresy').

It's also an excellent, excellent NiN song.

But they're also looking for the rapture first, then seven years of tribulation, the rise of singular world government, everyone starts walking around town with '666' written on them if they support the anti-Christ.... In other words, there will be clear and irrefutable signs of the second coming before Christ's return. That's what I mean about the rapture deminishing the unexpectedness of the final judgement. As a Lutheran, I believe that Christ's return is just going to happen... One minute he's up there, the next minute he's down here. Heck, for all we know the judgement could be taking place ten minutes from now and we'd be none the wiser until it happened.

I agree with you. Nearly entirely. Yet I caution that the unexpectedness of the return is exactly what they preach as well and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Taking it too far, afraid to live you life and spread the good news and do the work of the Lord while we are still here because there isn't enough time left, well that's a bad thing, a non-healthy and unhappy result. Like a little wine is fine, but too much is drunkardly. Expecting Christ to return at any minute is scriptural and fine and puts the world into a healthy perspective, as it may come true at any moment, and even if not for the entire world all at once, then for any one of us individually and suddenly, our individual lives can come to a sudden end at any time.

A Lutheran calling another Protestant a heretic is pretty ironic from some perspectives ;) Although I'm on your side, I recognize that you and I would be called heretics from Rome's point of view.

The Second Coming?

It doesn't HAVE to be watching for signs and portents. Indeed, I can't realistically find a way to reconcile THAT aspect of Rapture Theology at all.

There is more than one 'Rapture' theology, and I certainly don't support them all, in fact, off the top of my head, I don't support any of them. HOWEVER, I'm not going to sit around and be like one of the Pharisee priests either, watching all the events unfold and being unwilling to accept that my previous anticipation/understanding turned out to be in error so I couldn't adjust to the new revealed message of Christ when he's talking straight to me.


As in, if it comes earlier than I expected, I'm not going to refuse to get on the bus because my theological understanding wasn't 'correct'. Even the Lutherans think that Christ is going to gather all the saints in the air, but they expect it to happen on the last day... not before or during a seven year apocalypse. The answer to your question depends on what you mean by "the rapture." The English word "rapture" is derived from the Latin translation of the verb "caught up" in 1 Thess. 4:17 (rapiemur).Lutherans certainly believe what Paul teaches in this passage, namely, that those who are still living on earth when Christ returns visibly on the last day "will be caught up" ("raptured") together with "the dead in Christ" to "meet the Lord in the air."
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2743

And the Catholics believe similarly, With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up,"
http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp


And they conclude quite nicely I think...

A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).

It's also an excellent, excellent NiN song.

It is, indeed.

I remember the days where you didn't have to qualify NiN with 'an excellent.. song'. Back before "Perfect Drug"....

HOWEVER, I'm not going to sit around and be like one of the Pharisee priests either, watching all the events unfold and being unwilling to accept that my previous anticipation/understanding turned out to be in error so I couldn't adjust to the new revealed message of Christ when he's talking straight to me.


On the other hand, if those Pharisees were actually right, they amde the right choice... and not wanting to be associated with them won't stop your choice being wrong.

See the parallel?

On the other hand, if those Pharisees were actually right, they amde the right choice... and not wanting to be associated with them won't stop your choice being wrong.

See the parallel?

They were wrong when Jesus wouldn't stay dead. See the parallel?

A Lutheran calling another Protestant a heretic is pretty ironic from some perspectives ;) Although I'm on your side, I recognize that you and I would be called heretics from Rome's point of view.

Lutherans are a lot closer to Catholics in theology than they are to other protestants... Granted there are several people on both sides who act like the Reformation is still going on... But overall, I'm sure a Lutheran would become a lot less irritated talking to a Catholic about theology than another protestant (unless that protestant is also a Lutheran!) ;)

Lutherans are a lot closer to Catholics in theology than they are to other protestants... Granted there are several people on both sides who act like the Reformation is still going on... But overall, I'm sure a Lutheran would become a lot less irritated talking to a Catholic about theology than another protestant (unless that protestant is also a Lutheran!) ;)

I agree again, I find no debate with you! lol

Additionally, I confess, I sometimes even enjoy watching the priest give sermons on the EWTN channel (especially that Father John Corapi), but don't tell anyone, m'kay? :)

IAdditionally, I confess, I sometimes even enjoy watching the priest give sermons on the EWTN channel (especially that Father John Corapi), but don't tell anyone, m'kay? :)
You'll be ok... confession is confidential, as I recall ;)

I agree again, I find no debate with you! lol

Additionally, I confess, I sometimes even enjoy watching the priest give sermons on the EWTN channel (especially that Father John Corapi), but don't tell anyone, m'kay? :)

Good, "debate" on this forum tends to get me quite irritated.. It's nice I can go into a forum and find lots of common ground with people for a change.

It is, indeed.

I remember the days where you didn't have to qualify NiN with 'an excellent.. song'. Back before "Perfect Drug"....

Especially now that Reznor's off the drugs. And apparently buff.

Still pissed off at a friend of mine who had extra tickets for when they were here at the Izod Center and didn't bother to tell me.

Good, "debate" on this forum tends to get me quite irritated.. It's nice I can go into a forum and find lots of common ground with people for a change.

Don't know about you, but I find having a discussion with someone who almost completely agree's with you tends to get boring, fast.

I'll admit sometimes debate isn't the most civil around here, but don't be afraid to be challenged, is what I say.

Personally, I blame decentralization and deregulation of the markets for the crisis we've quickly become embroiled in, so as you can imagine, I'm not a big proponent of Economic Libertarianism.

Libertarianism is similiar to True Communism in that it is a very idealistic ideology, where it could certainly work, if everyone co-operated the way they should. Libertarianism relies on businessman being responsible and willing to treat labour satisfactorily, just as Communism relies on everyone being responsible, and willing to share amongst themselves.

I'd certainly support a more Libertarian society, if we could trust folks to be responsible without a bunch of regulations forcing them to be responsible.

Anyway, I'm going too off topic.

Especially now that Reznor's off the drugs. And apparently buff.

Still pissed off at a friend of mine who had extra tickets for when they were here at the Izod Center and didn't bother to tell me.

I had the same problem! They got to the NiN gig and had two spare tickets (and my wife is as big a fan as I am)... bastards.

They were wrong when Jesus wouldn't stay dead. See the parallel?

Assuming that Jesus didn't stay dead. See the parallel?

Yeah, me too.

...the essay quoted in the blog? The one that it's about? The one on the New York Review website?

That's what we were reading, right?

Well, no. Not as such. That's just one excerpt on why the deconstruction of the series is important. Hell, I didn't even read the full essay, I'm actually a lot more interested in the actual deconstruction, which takes place completely on the blog.

I noticed the Joan Didion essay that it refers to in part isn't fully available.

Do recall that the blog began five years ago. Not all of the links will be operational.

I gave the novels a fair chance back when Corneliu or someone started posting about the game they were making to go with it. I read the first couple pages they had up on their site. I could have tolerated the sunday school parable style of the plot if it hadn't been for the abysmal failure to develop a background story. The history that the books plotted out in order to conform with biblical prophesy (in and of its own not a bad thing, if done right) took about as long as I did typing this up.

But I guess you're right: Where I demanded a more detailed description of the Ethiopian invasion of Israel, including political backgrounds that would explain why a very Christian nation such as Ethiopia would suddenly ally with predominately muslim nations and Russia to invade Israel, than "Ethiopia, to everyone's surprise, invaded Israel as they had been secretly planning" the target audience likely thought "Gee, that's exactly how it is in the bible!"

To say nothing of Rozenwig's miracle concoction which turns all of Israel--yes, even the sand--fertile, which boosts its economy and makes it the wealthiest nation in the world despite that, if such a feat did occur and made Israel SuperFertile, it would likely match China's agricultural exports in a best case scenario.

I had the same problem! They got to the NiN gig and had two spare tickets (and my wife is as big a fan as I am)... bastards.

Just damned inconsiderate, aye.

Well, no. Not as such. That's just one excerpt on why the deconstruction of the series is important. Hell, I didn't even read the full essay, I'm actually a lot more interested in the actual deconstruction, which takes place completely on the blog.

Ooooh. Sorry, I ignored the blog automatically; most blogs aren't worth the bandwidth they consume.


Do recall that the blog began five years ago. Not all of the links will be operational.

This one is unavailable because it's on the New York Review website, which requires paid membership.

I gave the novels a fair chance back when Corneliu or someone started posting about the game they were making to go with it. I read the first couple pages they had up on their site. I could have tolerated the sunday school parable style of the plot if it hadn't been for the abysmal failure to develop a background story. The history that the books plotted out in order to conform with biblical prophesy (in and of its own not a bad thing, if done right) took about as long as I did typing this up.

But I guess you're right: Where I demanded a more detailed description of the Ethiopian invasion of Israel, including political backgrounds that would explain why a very Christian nation such as Ethiopia would suddenly ally with predominately muslim nations and Russia to invade Israel, than "Ethiopia, to everyone's surprise, invaded Israel as they had been secretly planning" the target audience likely thought "Gee, that's exactly how it is in the bible!"

And it's that kind of thinking that allows people to support Palin/McCain so unconditionally, despite mounting evidence. But that's -- literally -- another thread.

I bow to your logic. :hail:

Well, shit. *blink, blink*

There's a first.

To say nothing of Rozenwig's miracle concoction which turns all of Israel--yes, even the sand--fertile, which boosts its economy and makes it the wealthiest nation in the world despite that, if such a feat did occur and made Israel SuperFertile, it would likely match China's agricultural exports in a best case scenario.I didn't want to point out how seriously lacking the miracle's explanation was. Another point where I was asking myself "How?" while the target audience murmurs "Gee, that's exactly how it is in the bible!"

And it's that kind of thinking that allows people to support Palin/McCain so unconditionally, despite mounting evidence. But that's -- literally -- another thread.I mean it's not like I wouldn't tolerate warping reality in order to adhere to a certain interpretation of how the apocalypse plays out. I don't tolerate thinking you did a good job by dedicating only one sentence to it.

I mean it's not like I wouldn't tolerate warping reality in order to adhere to a certain interpretation of how the apocalypse plays out. I don't tolerate thinking you did a good job by dedicating only one sentence to it.

Uh...right?

Seriously, that second sentence lost me, and that takes some doing.

*applauds, bewildered*