NationStates Jolt Archive

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

$3.55 here and dropping

Gas is cheap in the US compared to other non-subsidized nations. It may not seem so but it is.

its all the democrat's fault for not letting us drill offshore and in anwar.

yeah, i paid $3.40/gallon for gas on tuesday. im not looking forward to seeing the price tomorrow

$3.70ish here.

Still cheaper than everything but milk and water here.

$3.55 here.

The SPR doesn't matter. There is no gasoline in the SPR and the only refined products are the heating oil reserves on the East Coast. You could even release all the crude in the world's reserve and it wouldn't matter simply because there's no shortage of crude. On the contrary, there's a huge supply buffer that hasn't been there in years past and that's why the crude market has shrugged off these hurricanes.

All the crude in the world doesn't mean a thing if you can't refine it. Take a guess as to where the most significant chunk of US refining capacity is located and you'll have your answer as to what's going on with gasoline prices. It sucks, but all you can do is drive less and drive more efficient vehicles. That's it, and unless you're willing to approve huge new expansions of domestic oil production or construct new refineries, that's all you can do.

its all the democrat's fault for not letting us drill offshore and in anwar.

yeah, i paid $3.40/gallon for gas on tuesday. im not looking forward to seeing the price tomorrow

Ahh but they have caved on the offshore part. It will be coming up soon. Also the Bakken Formation (http://bakkenoil.blogspot.com/2008/04/usgs-2001-bakken-assessment.html) is getting ready to go online (300) wells. It has almost as much oil as Saudi Arabia.

$3.95 in my town today.

Ahh but they have caved on the offshore part. It will be so coming up soon. Also the Bakken Formation (http://bakkenoil.blogspot.com/2008/04/usgs-2001-bakken-assessment.html) is getting ready to go online (300) wells. It has almost as much oil as Saudi Arabia.

Not to mention more natural gas than the entire current recoverable reserves on Earth.

Seriously, there's so much natural gas in the ground, let alone the renewable gas produced by bacteria in landfills and specially-designed fermenter tanks at power plants, that it's basically the fuel of the future. I think T. Boone Pickens is right on the dot when he encourages us to switch to CNG because there's enough of it here in the US to make oil look like a trifle in comparison.

I still get a laugh from the peak oilers predicting the "natural gas cliff" in US production...come to think of it, though, it is going off a cliff, just in the wrong direction by rising 9% year-over-year. That's the biggest gain in recorded US gas production history.

I still get a laugh from the peak oilers predicting the "natural gas cliff" in US production...come to think of it, though, it is going off a cliff, just in the wrong direction by rising 9% year-over-year. That's the biggest gain in recorded US gas production history.

Hey Look! The sky is falling!!!

Why people get sucked into the "gloom and doom" bit I will never know.

Hey Look! The sky is falling!!!

Why people get sucked into the "gloom and doom" bit I will never know.

Because people are naturally pessimistic than hopeful.

Hey Look! The sky is falling!!!

Why people get sucked into the "gloom and doom" bit I will never know.

Well, you've got the ones who hate people/technology/modern society and then the unfortunate group that doesn't know much about energy or resources but makes the mistake of stumbling on to one of those TEOWAWKI sites and is, well, terrified. The latter group usually does their research and later finds out the previous claims are ludicrous, leaving primarily the first group along with various survivalists and other hangers-on looking for a chance to test their skills. It's a fact that world oil production will one day peak and decline, but it's also a fact that it will neither happen overnight nor is the global economy incapable of adjusting to that change. We did it before under far less comfortable circumstances and we sure as hell can do it again.

The real shocker is that we're still consuming more energy per capita than we did back in the 1970's despite using far less oil as a share of that total. I guess modern technology transitioned from oil pretty damn well over the past 30 years. So not only do we get to consume more energy than ever before, but the energy consumed is going to be cleaner and more abundant. How's that for a good deal?

The real shocker is that we're still consuming more energy per capita than we did back in the 1970's despite using far less oil as a share of that total. I guess modern technology transitioned from oil pretty damn well over the past 30 years.

So not only do we get to consume more energy than ever before, but the energy consumed is going to be cleaner and more abundant. How's that for a good deal?

Whaatt you say! No, the evil humans are killing the planet! Global warming! Pollution! Rising sea levels! We must make everyone ride bicycles! Ahhh hell is freezing over!!!


You know what makes your post funny is that it is a fact. Tell that to some of these tree huggers and their bitty heads will implode.

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

Surely the last thing we want to do is use the reserves when its not absolutely nessisary. Use the reserves today, and then what happens if tomorrow terrorists blow up a refinery?

Gas prices aren't high enough yet. They are high enough to annoy you, but they aren't high enough to break into the reserves. The truth is they are mostly high due to speculation, not lack of oil or any other stuff you think is the problem.

Meanwhile, hubby bought a motorcycle. It gets upwards of 90mpg. Insurance is $12 every 6 months and we paid less than $1K for it.

Maybe you should consider the same Wilgrove. If you can fly a plane surely you can ride a bike.

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

reserves wont help. many of the refineries are located on the golf coast in Texas and Louisiana. 2 hurricanes in a row does that to refineries. You want cheap gas get your government to ease environmental restrictions so refineries can be built in your area.

Surely the last thing we want to do is use the reserves when its not absolutely nessisary. Use the reserves today, and then what happens if tomorrow terrorists blow up a refinery?

The reserves were meant for war. We are not in a war situation where our supply lines are threatened. Hands off I say.

Meanwhile, hubby bought a motorcycle. It gets upwards of 90mpg. Insurance is $12 every 6 months and we paid less than $1K for it.

.

I love riding motorcycles however it is somewhat dangerous. They sure are economical though. Hopefully he stays safe.

I love riding motorcycles however it is somewhat dangerous. They sure are economical though. Hopefully he stays safe.

He works a flex shift, so he's on the road before both rush hours. He sees maybe 3 cars on his whole commute. He's a very defensive driver. I doubt he'll have any problems. (doesn't keep me from panicking every time he's 30 seconds late home though)

You do realize how small our reserves really are, and the fact that it really would do almost nothing to lower gas prices, and would only extend the problem, and even potentially make it worse in the event of a large hurricane (given the fact that we are still in the very early part of hurricane season, and it is predicted to be bad...) or other problem

You do realize how small our reserves really are, and the fact that it really would do almost nothing to lower gas prices, and would only extend the problem, and even potentially make it worse in the event of a large hurricane (given the fact that we are still in the very early part of hurricane season, and it is predicted to be bad...) or other problem

Well said. Part of the problem is that people look for a quick fix (ie, grab up the remaining oil even faster), without fully apreciating the long-term consequences. If Bush keeps a tight leash on the strategic reserves, then perhaps he's finally doing something right.

so, according to keith olbermans show the no-bid contracts for iraq oil that went to US companies have been cancelled and awarded to a chinese company.

not particularly relevant to the thread but still interesting. i didnt know the iraqi govt had the balls to do it.

Well said. Part of the problem is that people look for a quick fix (ie, grab up the remaining oil even faster), without fully apreciating the long-term consequences. If Bush keeps a tight leash on the strategic reserves, then perhaps he's finally doing something right.

These are the same people that run up credit card debts and over extend themselves on their mortgages.

so, according to keith olbermans show the no-bid contracts for iraq oil that went to US companies have been cancelled and awarded to a chinese company.

not particularly relevant to the thread but still interesting. i didnt know the iraqi govt had the balls to do it.

Maybe we should send the bill to China for the war.

Maybe we should send the bill to China for the war.
havent they already paid their fair share?

havent they already paid their fair share?

Considering the size of our budget deficits since 2003, I'd say they're one of its biggest financiers.

Considering the size of our budget deficits since 2003, I'd say they're one of its biggest financiers.
its kinda creepy when you think about it.

i guess thats why we try so hard not to think about it.

its kinda creepy when you think about it.

i guess thats why we try so hard not to think about it.

The easiest wars are ones fought by somebody else...I have no doubt the Chinese are more than willing to foot the bill for our actions so long as they benefit from them. It's a good deal for them, and sort of a good deal for us, but I wonder what happens if it is no longer in their interests to do so.

The easiest wars are ones fought by somebody else...I have no doubt the Chinese are more than willing to foot the bill for our actions so long as they benefit from them. It's a good deal for them, and sort of a good deal for us, but I wonder what happens if it is no longer in their interests to do so.

The US should always keep one eye on them. They are a sneaky and shrewd bunch.

Edit: we already know what they will do if it isn't in their best interests. Sudan is a good example. Who do you think is standing in the way of punishing Sudan's government for Darfur?

The easiest wars are ones fought by somebody else...I have no doubt the Chinese are more than willing to foot the bill for our actions so long as they benefit from them. It's a good deal for them, and sort of a good deal for us, but I wonder what happens if it is no longer in their interests to do so.
if the iraqi oil begins to be produced in earnest, it doesnt matter that it goes to the chinese, its win/win for everyone.

that makes it worth it for the chinese since the iraqi oil was pretty much off the market when it was controlled by hussein.

The US should always keep one eye on them. They are a sneaky and shrewd bunch.

Edit: we already know what they will do if it isn't in their best interests. Sudan is a good example. Who do you think is standing in the way of punishing Sudan's government for Darfur?
the chinese are spending big money in africa. they dont care much about human rights (well ok nothing) and there are lots of resources up for grabs.

Ahh but they have caved on the offshore part. It will be coming up soon. Also the Bakken Formation (http://bakkenoil.blogspot.com/2008/04/usgs-2001-bakken-assessment.html) is getting ready to go online (300) wells. It has almost as much oil as Saudi Arabia.

So in 10 years we can start getting at 3.6 billion barrels of oil. Last check the US consumes well I have seen various numbers but let say the average is 20 million barrels consumed a day.

So the math says....how is this really going to help?

You are also assuming this oil will offset the costs here. Probably the free marketers will sell that oil abroad to the every growing consumption needs of China and India.

So in 10 years we can start getting at 3.6 billion barrels of oil. Last check the US consumes well I have seen various numbers but let say the average is 20 million barrels consumed a day.

So the math says....how is this really going to help?

You are also assuming this oil will offset the costs here. Probably the free marketers will sell that oil abroad to the every growing consumption needs of China and India.

That's a bit inaccurate. At current prices, as much as 1.5-2.0 trillion barrels or more is recoverable from those formations and others across the country. Of course, the Bakken formation is still a pretty tough resource to tap so likely it will produce less oil over a longer period of time due to the geological and economic constraints on production; it's definitely not something that should be neglected, especially given how much a major increase in US oil production would boost tax revenues and help balance our bleeding current account deficit. The result of that, of course, is a stronger dollar which most importantly means lower inflation.

Even if it were all exported, every barrel of oil sold to China or India is that much more to balance our trade deficit and that much less needed from Saudi Arabia or Venezuela.

About $3.67 up here.

the chinese are spending big money in africa. they dont care much about human rights (well ok nothing) and there are lots of resources up for grabs.

I spend a fair bit of time in Africa and can say they trust the Chinese about as far as they can throw them. Well you can throw a Chinese pretty far so maybe bad analogy. Anyway they don't trust them. Just my read on the Africans I talk politics with.

Jesus, now Bush controls the weather?! I mean I am CERTAINLY no fan, but let's try to use some logic here.

The strategic oil reserves aren't profiting Bush personally. It's there for, you know, emergencies, and fueling military vehicles, and wartime... not convenience's sake.

Yeah, I'm feeling the pinch too, but there are alternatives -- bus, bike, train, cab.... shank's mare....

so, according to keith olbermans show the no-bid contracts for iraq oil that went to US companies have been cancelled and awarded to a chinese company.

not particularly relevant to the thread but still interesting. i didnt know the iraqi govt had the balls to do it.

I doubt the Iraqi government had much say in the matter. Washington has been China's bitch since June.

its all the democrat's fault for not letting us drill offshore and in anwar.

yeah, i paid $3.40/gallon for gas on tuesday. im not looking forward to seeing the price tomorrow

I got gas tonight on my way home from work. I am happy to say I paid 3.299. It was 3.399 for credit card buyers. On the other side of the road the gas station that was closed had 3.699 on their sign. WTF? Essentially nothing happened and you jacked the price 40 cents! They don't even know what the results of the storm will be, and they are dicking you for a "what if."

Well I'd say you guys got it easy there, the price of gas where I come from is somewhere between 1,4€-1,6€/litre if I did the maths correctly that would mean it's around 8$/gallon. :mad:

$3.55 here and dropping

Gas is cheap in the US compared to other non-subsidized nations. It may not seem so but it is.

Not the point. While true, the thing is, those other countries have their society set up for those higher gas prices, from higher wages, to greater amounts of public transportation, to living closer to their work rather than having bedroom communities spread halfway across the country, etc etc.

The United States is not used to the gas prices, and unlike a lot of things, it's not a manner of bucking up. There's only so much bucking up one can do when the cost of working goes up and the rewards do not.

Whaatt you say! No, the evil humans are killing the planet! Global warming! Pollution! Rising sea levels! We must make everyone ride bicycles! Ahhh hell is freezing over!!!


You know what makes your post funny is that it is a fact. Tell that to some of these tree huggers and their bitty heads will implode.

Just don't be so quick to dismiss doomsayers that you dismiss scientists with real concerns that are backed up by the evidence as well. Global warming IS a problem. Pollution IS a problem. Rising sea levels ARE a problem.

They're not going to kill us overnight, but neither should they be dismissed simply because there a few vocal doomsayers who cry out like maniacs.

Just don't be so quick to dismiss doomsayers that you dismiss scientists with real concerns that are backed up by the evidence as well. Global warming IS a problem. Pollution IS a problem. Rising sea levels ARE a problem.

They're not going to kill us overnight, but neither should they be dismissed simply because there a few vocal doomsayers who cry out like maniacs.
It's a liberal conspiracy I tell you! Al Gore invented global warming to turn the US into communists.

Are we talking prices per gallon or per litre? If it's per litre than that's expensive, but if it's per gallon that's really cheap. Over here it's about £1.15 for a litre, so that's $2.35 or so, but per gallon in the UK it'd be just over 5 quid, so about 11 dollars per English gallon. However, you have different gallons, so it's about £4.50 per American gallon over here, so that's $9 dollars per American gallon. If you are talking about price per gallon then you have it really cheap. We had a time in the Summer when it was about £1.18 for a litre of petrol and about £1.30 for a litre of diesel, with some places selling it for even hiigher prices.

Are we talking prices per gallon or per litre? If it's per litre than that's expensive, but if it's per gallon that's really cheap. Over here it's about £1.15 for a litre, so that's $2.35 or so, but per gallon in the UK it'd be just over 5 quid, so about 11 dollars per English gallon. However, you have different gallons, so it's about £4.50 per American gallon over here, so that's $9 dollars per American gallon. If you are talking about price per gallon then you have it really cheap. We had a time in the Summer when it was about £1.18 for a litre of petrol and about £1.30 for a litre of diesel, with some places selling it for even hiigher prices.
It's price per gallon, since we're still rather Imperialistic, in several senses of the word.

But as I said, the United States isn't used to gas prices this high. Being that we were for awhile a major oil producer, our economy, public transportation, wages, etc are all based around having really super cheap gas, which we've only been coasting out of since the 70s or so, and which hasn't really started to hit us hard until this decade.

Gas prices aren't high enough yet. They are high enough to annoy you, but they aren't high enough to break into the reserves. The truth is they are mostly high due to speculation, not lack of oil or any other stuff you think is the problem.

Meanwhile, hubby bought a motorcycle. It gets upwards of 90mpg. Insurance is $12 every 6 months and we paid less than $1K for it.

Maybe you should consider the same Wilgrove. If you can fly a plane surely you can ride a bike.

Yea, I was talking to Monica about that, we're both thinking about getting bikes.

I've got an electric scooter to zip around London. I'm normally a public transport man but this way is so cheap that it's a handy alternative. It might be a bit on the dangerous side but considering the pace traffic moves around here, you'll be alright if you keep your eyes open.

20p per charge. And if everyone did it, no more congestion. Join me guys.

Not to mention more natural gas than the entire current recoverable reserves on Earth.

Seriously, there's so much natural gas in the ground, let alone the renewable gas produced by bacteria in landfills and specially-designed fermenter tanks at power plants, that it's basically the fuel of the future. I think T. Boone Pickens is right on the dot when he encourages us to switch to CNG because there's enough of it here in the US to make oil look like a trifle in comparison.

I still get a laugh from the peak oilers predicting the "natural gas cliff" in US production...come to think of it, though, it is going off a cliff, just in the wrong direction by rising 9% year-over-year. That's the biggest gain in recorded US gas production history.
I just got back from a trip to New Delhi. All the public transportation has been converted to CNG. If these guys can afford to make the conversion, so can we. And CNG exists in parallel with gas/diesel -- meaning you can buy both at the same place.

Of course, CNG isn't as efficient as gasoline in terms of btu per gallon, or however else you want to measure energy, but it's cheaper and cleaner. God, how the air in New Delhi has changed since the last time I was there.

I would like to hear a realistic proposal to adopt an alternative fuel from someone in government, but it seems to be like Social Security. The less said, the better.

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....
Prices go up every time there's a hurricane because the refineries shut down. I've lived along, or near, the Gulf for most of my life and this is just the way it is. The worst thing that could happen is to do what the Governor in Georgia has done... Activated anti-gouging laws. Now, there are shortages, long lines, and plenty of stations with no gas at all.

I doubt the Iraqi government had much say in the matter. Washington has been China's bitch since June.
what happened in june?

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....
If you think that $4.29 is bumrape, then I don't know why you're talking about exploring shale oil, which costs about $1,000 per barrel to extract IIRC.

Also, paying £25-£50 is less than most people in the UK pay for our petrol, and we almost universally have smaller cars than you guys. A gallon of petrol here would be *works this out* about ten or eleven dollars, so there we go. And our public transport system is pretty pish, so that hardly makes up for it.

I already explained all that.

Well I'd say you guys got it easy there, the price of gas where I come from is somewhere between 1,4€-1,6€/litre if I did the maths correctly that would mean it's around 8$/gallon. :mad:
Well, when it's doubled within a year or so and I can remember $1.30 gasoline quite easily, it's a bit of a shock. Sort of like waking up one day to find that from $2.00, eggs are now $8 the dozen.

Here:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news/international/usgas_price/index.htm

Also, paying £25-£50 is less than most people in the UK pay for our petrol, and we almost universally have smaller cars than you guys. A gallon of petrol here would be *works this out* about ten or eleven dollars, so there we go. And our public transport system is pretty pish, so that hardly makes up for it.

The mere fact that you have public transportation puts you miles ahead of anything we have in most areas of the states. The urban area I live in is about equivalent to Cambridge, and we have 1 Amtrak (inter-city) route, and no city/county transport.

Prices go up every time there's a hurricane because the refineries shut down. I've lived along, or near, the Gulf for most of my life and this is just the way it is. The worst thing that could happen is to do what the Governor in Georgia has done... Activated anti-gouging laws. Now, there are shortages, long lines, and plenty of stations with no gas at all.

It's not just Georgia. We're out of fuel in most stations here in East Alabama because of Ike. And that's after prices across town went up 40 cents/gallon between sundown Thursday and Noon Friday.

Take public transit or a bicycle.

Some of us can't afford cars, quit bitching about how you can't afford your fuel.

This is what happens when a hurricane hits the refinery...

Don't like it, build another refinery that doesn't get hit by hurricanes every 2 years.

Take public transit or a bicycle.

Some of us can't afford cars, quit bitching about how you can't afford your fuel.

Public transit doesn't exist everywhere, in fact it doesn't exist in most places. Also, riding a bike kinda sucks when you have to go 5 miles and it's 33 degrees and raining.

I think gas is around $0.90 or so here, but I don't have to pay for it anyway, which is good because my truck only gets something like 9 miles per gallon.

Well, when it's doubled within a year or so and I can remember $1.30 gasoline quite easily, it's a bit of a shock. Sort of like waking up one day to find that from $2.00, eggs are now $8 the dozen.

Here:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news/international/usgas_price/index.htm

Yeah, but gas isn't getting any cheaper in here either. I do understand that the relative difference might be explained by the taxes and wages and all that. I do think that gas is relatively cheaper in US than in Finland though. I can remember 1.2€/litre and it is now up to 1.6€/litre at the worst. We europeans have as much a reason to complain about it as you guys do in the US.

:) Read the article after posting, duh.. Yeah I can see what you mean.

The mere fact that you have public transportation puts you miles ahead of anything we have in most areas of the states. The urban area I live in is about equivalent to Cambridge, and we have 1 Amtrak (inter-city) route, and no city/county transport.



It's not just Georgia. We're out of fuel in most stations here in East Alabama because of Ike. And that's after prices across town went up 40 cents/gallon between sundown Thursday and Noon Friday.
This is when I wouldn't mind seeing prices go up $3 or $4 a gallon. That would keep everyone from filling every tank they own, just to have gas. Anyone that really needed the four or five gallons would still be able to buy them.

I really don't see why the hell you guys are complaining so damn much.

I just filled the gas tank yesterday over here and paid US$ 7.74 per gallon 95 octane. (EUR 1.439 per liter).

And last month it was up to US$ 8.44 (EUR 1.569 per liter) and more. So quit complaining. For more than 30 years it has been clear that the low gas prices in the U.S. are (to be) a thing of the past.

Go blame your car industry for building such gas guzzlers, ask yourself if you really need the big ass car you're driving - and realize what a car really is: A luxuries means of transportation.

Hell, why not go blame your forefathers for conquering such a fucking vast continent?

I really don't see why the hell you guys are complaining so damn much.

I just filled the gas tank yesterday over here and paid US$ 7.74 per gallon 95 octane. (EUR 1.439 per liter).

And last month it was up to US$ 8.44 (EUR 1.569 per liter) and more. So quit complaining. For more than 30 years it has been clear that the low gas prices in the U.S. are (to be) a thing of the past.

Go blame your car industry for building such gas guzzlers, ask yourself if you really need the big ass car you're driving - and realize what a car really is: A luxuries means of transportation.

Hell, why not go blame your forefathers for conquering such a fucking vast continent?

You have options on whether or not to drive, we don't.
I do have a smaller car, it gets around 25/30 mpg.
My forefathers didn't have a choice in coming here.

I really don't see why the hell you guys are complaining so damn much.

I just filled the gas tank yesterday over here and paid US$ 7.74 per gallon 95 octane. (EUR 1.439 per liter).

And last month it was up to US$ 8.44 (EUR 1.569 per liter) and more. So quit complaining. For more than 30 years it has been clear that the low gas prices in the U.S. are (to be) a thing of the past.

Go blame your car industry for building such gas guzzlers, ask yourself if you really need the big ass car you're driving - and realize what a car really is: A luxuries means of transportation.

Hell, why not go blame your forefathers for conquering such a fucking vast continent?
Obviously, not reading the article.

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

To quote the lone ranger's sidekick: What do you mean "we", white man?

...okay, so my skin is probably lighter than virtually all NSGers, but keep in mind that I voted for Gore in '00 and Kerry in '04...

I do have a smaller car, it gets around 25/30 mpg.

In Europe sports cars get 50mpg. Buy European.

In Europe sports cars get 50mpg. Buy European.

Really? I have driven many a sport cars in Europe. Just rented an Alfa Romeo two weeks ago and was driving around. I know I didn't get 50 miles or anywhere near that number per gallon. So could you please enlighten me on which makes and models of "sports cars" that get that kind of mileage.

Obviously, not reading the article.
Oh, I did. Still doesn't change my stance or a thing about you guys complaining about it way too much!

"There is some evidence Europe's high gas taxes have capped its oil consumption."

"Americans have taken advantage of cheap gas prices to do other things - like buy bigger cars and bigger houses further away from city centers, said Schipper."

"On a per capita basis, Americans use three times more oil than Europeans, he said. That means Americans are more exposed to rising gas prices than their counterparts across the Atlantic."

And it's really up to you guys to change that. Using thrice as much and then complaining that you also have to pay thrice as much is a bit strange.

So quit whining and get started on changing your situation! You don't see me complaining much about high gas prices, I pretty much accepted them and do also see where the tax money goes - however, with the current situation, it just means I drive less, shift to a higher gear earlier, don't drive when I don't have to, and use other ways of commuting.

I'm fully aware that alternative means are not available everywhere in the U.S. - but that means that it's up to you personally to decide whether you can still afford a car or maybe have to carpool or move somewhere else.

"'Five-thousand square feet in the suburbs, that's much rarer in Europe,' said Schipper, referring to big homes. 'We dug our hole.'"

That you did by supporting the tendency of ever-expanding suburbia and thus rely on driving everywhere.

Gas is only 3.55 here! *Does a dance*

Really? I have driven many a sport cars in Europe. Just rented an Alfa Romeo two weeks ago and was driving around. I know I didn't get 50 miles or anywhere near that number per gallon. So could you please enlighten me on which makes and models of "sports cars" that get that kind of mileage.

I was about to ask the very same thing.

Really? I have driven many a sport cars in Europe. Just rented an Alfa Romeo two weeks ago and was driving around. I know I didn't get 50 miles or anywhere near that number per gallon. So could you please enlighten me on which makes and models of "sports cars" that get that kind of mileage.

http://www.audi.co.uk/audi/uk/en2/new_cars/tt/New_TTcoupe/TT_TDI_quattro.html

I do have a smaller car, it gets around 25/30 mpg.
That's a pretty crappy mileage!

The last trip I used about 7 liters per 100 km, that equals round about 33.6 mpg.

However, that included me going at the car's top speed (circa 175/180 km/h) for about 60 minutes as well - the "thirsty" stretch of the 90min drive.

When I drive with Vmax of 130 km/h (80 mph) or simply drive around town I get up to 40 mpg, maybe even more.

However, when I drove at night with an empty Autobahn and could drive most of the way without having to slow down in traffic my mileage dropped to 26. And I thought that was bad.

http://www.audi.co.uk/audi/uk/en2/new_cars/tt/New_TTcoupe/TT_TDI_quattro.html
Hehe.
http://www.voigt-media.net/images/other/audi_logo_small.jpg
Vorsprung durch Technik.

Dont worry, the Divine Market will save us.

Hehe.
http://www.voigt-media.net/images/other/audi_logo_small.jpg
Vorsprung durch Technik.


I bow to German engineering. If I will ever afford a car, German is first on my list ;)

http://www.audi.co.uk/audi/uk/en2/new_cars/tt/New_TTcoupe/TT_TDI_quattro.html

Glad to hear they upped the mileage on that car. My brother had an Audi A4 for a bit and I know it didn't get that kind of mileage.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/02/28/079124.html

This link contradicts yours by a lot. That is odd. I do want to point out it says that the mileage of the low 40's is unparalled in the sports car industry. Which means no other car can touch it. Hardly a industry wide average. Another thing I want to point out is that they usually post highway mileage which is drastically different than city driving.

I bow to German engineering. If I will ever afford a car, German is first on my list ;)

I wish my Mercedes got 42mpg on the highway. Oh wait that is German engineering too. Must be East Germans designing the Mercedes now. :eek:

Can't afford to buy foreign until I graduate.

Hell, I can't afford to buy a car made in Alabama (Mercedes/New Hyundais/Toyota/Honda) until then.

Gas is only 3.55 here! *Does a dance*

$3.45 in South Hadley, MA.! :D

In Europe sports cars get 50mpg. Buy European.
The most fuel-efficient car that can be called a sports car, Toyota Celica, gets 33 US mpg highway. That's it. And Celica weighs just a ton.
Audi TT, the mentioned one, has a weaker engine and a heavier body, and overall just doesn't qualify as a sports car. It just looks sporty. And 44 UK mpg is only about 35 US mpg. And it's a diesel - diesel fuel is denser, with each gallon containing more energy, and costing more. Though diesels are indeed more efficient, TT just wastes its fuel lugging around its heavy and ugly body.

I've got an electric scooter to zip around London. I'm normally a public transport man but this way is so cheap that it's a handy alternative. It might be a bit on the dangerous side but considering the pace traffic moves around here, you'll be alright if you keep your eyes open.

20p per charge. And if everyone did it, no more congestion. Join me guys.

My wife has a 50cc gasoline scooter, gets approx. 100-110 MPG, not to mention being a fun little toy, besides. Another advantage is that it isn't required to be insured, either, (another big savings). I've been on bikes practically my entire life, and I would like to opine that; if more/most of us in the U.S. got around on 2 wheels as much as possible instead of 4, we would ALL be much happier.
As far as the sportcar/musclecar fans out there go, well: my ZX10R Ninja gets around 40-50MPG, and will dust anything, and I mean ANYTHING! street-legal on 4 wheels.

As far as the sportcar/musclecar fans out there go, well: my ZX10R Ninja gets around 40-50MPG, and will dust anything, and I mean ANYTHING! street-legal on 4 wheels.
As long as cornering isn't concerned - it's two wheels short there.

Though bikes rock in jams. But they suck when it's cold.

Oh, I did. Still doesn't change my stance or a thing about you guys complaining about it way too much!

"There is some evidence Europe's high gas taxes have capped its oil consumption."

"Americans have taken advantage of cheap gas prices to do other things - like buy bigger cars and bigger houses further away from city centers, said Schipper."

"On a per capita basis, Americans use three times more oil than Europeans, he said. That means Americans are more exposed to rising gas prices than their counterparts across the Atlantic."

And it's really up to you guys to change that. Using thrice as much and then complaining that you also have to pay thrice as much is a bit strange.

So quit whining and get started on changing your situation! You don't see me complaining much about high gas prices, I pretty much accepted them and do also see where the tax money goes - however, with the current situation, it just means I drive less, shift to a higher gear earlier, don't drive when I don't have to, and use other ways of commuting.

I'm fully aware that alternative means are not available everywhere in the U.S. - but that means that it's up to you personally to decide whether you can still afford a car or maybe have to carpool or move somewhere else.

"'Five-thousand square feet in the suburbs, that's much rarer in Europe,' said Schipper, referring to big homes. 'We dug our hole.'"

That you did by supporting the tendency of ever-expanding suburbia and thus rely on driving everywhere.

A) Per capita is BULLSHIT. We're a fifth of the world's economy, we use about a fifth of the world's oil. Or are you saying you approve of the idea that countries get more of any given good because they lack birth control or choose not to use it?

B) Germany is a nice little country. I like it there. BUT given that it's basically the size of Montana (ergo, everything is closer together) that's hardly a fair comparison: you've got the advantage of efficiency by space.

C) Gasoline in Europe would be about the same price as in the US if your governments didn't tax the hell out of it.

I don't disagree that suburban sprawl has gotten out of control in some places (ie: Atlanta, Northern Virginia), but it's only one factor in many.
I agree, however, that the law which expempted SUVs for over a decade as "trucks" and therefore farm vehicles was stupid and short sighted.

As long as cornering isn't concerned - it's two wheels short there.

Though bikes rock in jams. But they suck when it's cold.

Nothing short of sex is more fun than hangin' a knee-down thru a hairpin! :D

But I will agree that sub-zero riding bites 'nads!:(

I wish my Mercedes got 42mpg on the highway. Oh wait that is German engineering too. Must be East Germans designing the Mercedes now. :eek:
Well, mine only gets about 35 mpg on the highway, but I can run it on corn oil, if I have a mind to. I have started using 5 gallons of corn in every tank. Mileage doesn't seem to suffer.

Well, mine only gets about 35 mpg on the highway, but I can run it on corn oil, if I have a mind to. I have started using 5 gallons of corn in every tank. Mileage doesn't seem to suffer.

I suppose if I had a diesel I could pull that off. By the way do you get a smell from burning the corn oil?

A) Per capita is BULLSHIT. We're a fifth of the world's economy, we use about a fifth of the world's oil. Or are you saying you approve of the idea that countries get more of any given good because they lack birth control or choose not to use it?

B) Germany is a nice little country. I like it there. BUT given that it's basically the size of Montana (ergo, everything is closer together) that's hardly a fair comparison: you've got the advantage of efficiency by space.

C) Gasoline in Europe would be about the same price as in the US if your governments didn't tax the hell out of it.

I don't disagree that suburban sprawl has gotten out of control in some places (ie: Atlanta, Northern Virginia), but it's only one factor in many.
I agree, however, that the law which expempted SUVs for over a decade as "trucks" and therefore farm vehicles was stupid and short sighted.

Angry but correct. :tongue:

Well, mine only gets about 35 mpg on the highway, but I can run it on corn oil, if I have a mind to. I have started using 5 gallons of corn in every tank. Mileage doesn't seem to suffer.

If you REALLY get stuck for your commute, and your home heating system burns #2 oil, you can siphon that off and use it, conversely, you can also feed your #2 burning home furnace diesel if your about to run out. The only difference is a dye and the amount of tax paid.

Here in New Zealand, petrol prices are just a touch below NZ$2 a litre, and went as high as NZ$2.10 a litre. The big issue here is that the high petrol prices have seen everyone migrate to public transport, and now we are having capacity issues; several of the major bus routes are now running to capacity and the trains in Auckland and increasingly, Wellington are full to capacity. In Auckland, when you get a new train service, about a fortnight later, that service is full.

It is good, but it is getting irritating - on the Southern Line, the seats are usually taken about five stations in (and after that, it is still about 35 minutes to the City).

Update: $3.99 here.

Fun fact: wholesale gasoline prices are only $2.76/gallon. That means the normal average retail price for unleaded, non-reformulated gasoline would be $3.36 +/- a few cents, which means quite frankly we're getting screwed. As much as I dislike saying it, a lot of gasoline retailers are ripping people off because they know they can get away with it this time.

There have been no changes in wholesale prices that justify this increase unless they're buying their gasoline on the spot market, which I would say is both unlikely and stupid on their part because they'll always overpay.

In Europe sports cars get 50mpg. Buy European.
Rubbish. Sports cars mainly get between 8 and 15mpg. A proper car gets up to 70 if it's a diesel (which beats the shit out of a Prius and does less damage to the world in its production in doing so, actually).

Rubbish. Sports cars mainly get between 8 and 15mpg.
8 mpg is extremely shitty. Even 15 mpg is crappy.

Say, P997 gets 21mpg (combined). Even P997T gets 18. And even GT2 has 16. And it's not exactly the low end of sport cars.


And all that is Europe, not even mentioning Japan.

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

Life sucks...*nods*

$3.32 here, $3.28 a week ago.

We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!
There's about 21 billion barrels of oil in US to drill, and current consumption is 7 billion barrels a year. This reserve will last a bit and go poof.

And won't be available when the real trouble comes.

Now, if OPEC sides with Russia and other oil exporters, and they raise the prices... No, it's not trouble yet.
Now, if OPEC and other oil exporters form a bigger cartel, and then US goes to a war they don't approve... No, not real trouble yet.
Now, if US goes to a war that seriously harms that new cartel, and Canada doesn't support it too, dropping oil sales (but not as much as to justify invading it), now this is real trouble.

I suppose if I had a diesel I could pull that off. By the way do you get a smell from burning the corn oil?
Maybe a little, but not like the guys that are burning the used stuff. It smells a little like leaving the pan on the burner when the burner is a little too hot.

In fact, I'll probably knock it off, once the weather cools a little. I'm afraid of it congealing.

Update: $3.99 here.

Fun fact: wholesale gasoline prices are only $2.76/gallon. That means the normal average retail price for unleaded, non-reformulated gasoline would be $3.36 +/- a few cents, which means quite frankly we're getting screwed. As much as I dislike saying it, a lot of gasoline retailers are ripping people off because they know they can get away with it this time.

There have been no changes in wholesale prices that justify this increase unless they're buying their gasoline on the spot market, which I would say is both unlikely and stupid on their part because they'll always overpay.
The AP says (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.gas13sep13,0,2926075.story) different. They're reporting wholesale gas prices at about $4.85. But it's temporary. The refineries will open back up and prices will go down. Happens during every big hurricane.

Interestingly, diesel fuel hasn't been making the jumps. It must be refined somewhere else. Walmart still sells it at $4.05 per gallon.

Glad to hear they upped the mileage on that car. My brother had an Audi A4 for a bit and I know it didn't get that kind of mileage.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/02/28/079124.html

This link contradicts yours by a lot. That is odd. I do want to point out it says that the mileage of the low 40's is unparalled in the sports car industry. Which means no other car can touch it. Hardly a industry wide average. Another thing I want to point out is that they usually post highway mileage which is drastically different than city driving.

53 was combined, so an average between city and motorway.

As for Mercedes, that's because they have 4 litre engines, whereas this is a 2 litre ;)

The most fuel-efficient car that can be called a sports car, Toyota Celica, gets 33 US mpg highway. That's it. And Celica weighs just a ton.
Audi TT, the mentioned one, has a weaker engine and a heavier body, and overall just doesn't qualify as a sports car. It just looks sporty. And 44 UK mpg is only about 35 US mpg. And it's a diesel - diesel fuel is denser, with each gallon containing more energy, and costing more. Though diesels are indeed more efficient, TT just wastes its fuel lugging around its heavy and ugly body.

Well 0-62mph in 7.5s and top of 140mph is fairly sporty. :$

Well 0-62mph in 7.5s and top of 140mph is fairly sporty. :$
Maybe it was sporty in 1970s. Today it's more along the lines of "not a bus".

Say, the basic Evo has 0-60 time of 4.8s, and top speed is electronically limited at 155mph, but without that is around 170 if not tuned further. All with great handling and off-road performance, spacious saloon interior and boot, and being nearly $10,000 cheaper. Now that's sporty. TT is just sporty looking.

Angry but correct. :tongue:

Thanks. After burning the same strawman of "it's so expensive here in Europe, you Americans shouldn't b*itch" for the nth time, I just get a little jumpy. :)

Maybe it was sporty in 1970s. Today it's more along the lines of "not a bus".

Say, the basic Evo has 0-60 time of 4.8s, and top speed is electronically limited at 155mph, but without that is around 170 if not tuned further. All with great handling and off-road performance, spacious saloon interior and boot, and being nearly $10,000 cheaper. Now that's sporty. TT is just sporty looking.

The TT is essentially a Golf GT, but better looking. It is sporty. And elegant. And stylish. The Evo is merely more sporty and less everything else.

The TT is essentially a Golf GT, but better looking. It is sporty. And elegant. And stylish. The Evo is merely more sporty and less everything else.
Yes, it's elegant, and stylish accessory. And yes, it's sportier than Mondeo and Corolla. Though only in handling. Say, Corolla S (just a couple thousand over the basic price) does 0-60 in 7.6.
That's saloons. Sporty coupes do better - Toyota Celica in 6.7, Honda Civic in 6.4. Considering they all are cheap, practical, low-maintenance, high-reliability vehicles, they are what is called a sporty car; not as high-performance as a sports car, but more practical.

TT fits among them neatly, just with emphasis on luxury and fashion, and it is definitely not a sports car. Evo is a sports car, Civic and TT aren't. And the diesel TT isn't even sporty.

The AP says (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/bal-te.gas13sep13,0,2926075.story) different. They're reporting wholesale gas prices at about $4.85. But it's temporary. The refineries will open back up and prices will go down. Happens during every big hurricane.

Interestingly, diesel fuel hasn't been making the jumps. It must be refined somewhere else. Walmart still sells it at $4.05 per gallon.

That's what I figured; it sounds like spot prices shot up in reaction to the hurricane, at least in places close to the coast and dependent on those refineries.

Public transit doesn't exist everywhere, in fact it doesn't exist in most places.

Lobby your government to get some.

Also, riding a bike kinda sucks when you have to go 5 miles and it's 33 degrees and raining.

Think of how many people do this every day anyways because they can't afford cars. Cars are luxury items.

That's what I figured; it sounds like spot prices shot up in reaction to the hurricane, at least in places close to the coast and dependent on those refineries.
The really interesting thing is that with wholesale prices at $4.85, I'm still only seeing retail prices at about $4.00. If I were a gas station owner, and I knew my next gallon of gas was going to cost $4.85, I'd sure like to price my current gas high enough to be able to by a whole load of new gas. I think economists call that opportunity cost? Anyway, us regular folk would call it hedging our bets.

Lobby your government to get some.


Lobby all you want, unless you can toss millions of dollars at several government officials, you arn't going to get reliable public transit in even small cities because of the costs of creating and maintaining a public transit system.


Think of how many people do this every day anyways because they can't afford cars. Cars are luxury items.
Not since Henry Ford championed the assembly line they arn't.

Lobby all you want, unless you can toss millions of dollars at several government officials, you arn't going to get reliable public transit in even small cities because of the costs of creating and maintaining a public transit system.
So the T in Boston, the L in Chicago, the Metro in DC and the subway in New York are all examples of failure in public transit... Yeah.

Even the citizens of New Delhi -- a candidate city for the worst traffic on earth -- are clamoring for the new Metro to be fully implemented.

Mass transit is one of the few things that are suitable for a government to construct and run. We should do everything we can to promote and use them.

The really interesting thing is that with wholesale prices at $4.85, I'm still only seeing retail prices at about $4.00. If I were a gas station owner, and I knew my next gallon of gas was going to cost $4.85, I'd sure like to price my current gas high enough to be able to by a whole load of new gas. I think economists call that opportunity cost? Anyway, us regular folk would call it hedging our bets.

I think a lot of stations get deliveries at the futures price, which means most of their gasoline is priced at the normal wholesale level of $2.76/gal; however, due to the hurricane, demand shot up in those specific regions and they had to buy spot gasoline to meet demand, paying correspondingly higher prices.

That doesn't discount some instances of price gouging, such as in areas well removed from the hurricanes and supplied by other refineries.

I think a lot of stations get deliveries at the futures price, which means most of their gasoline is priced at the normal wholesale level of $2.76/gal; however, due to the hurricane, demand shot up in those specific regions and they had to buy spot gasoline to meet demand, paying correspondingly higher prices.

That doesn't discount some instances of price gouging, such as in areas well removed from the hurricanes and supplied by other refineries.
I think 8 were closed. Aren't there only about two dozen, total? I would guess that's split between SOCAL and the Gulf coast.

I am just very surprised not to see $5+ for a gallon. It is quite a bit harder to find gas stations that still have gas, though.

Lobby all you want, unless you can toss millions of dollars at several government officials, you arn't going to get reliable public transit in even small cities because of the costs of creating and maintaining a public transit system.

This is what taxes are for and federal and provincial/state/whatever division governments chipping in to help municipalities is for.

Not since Henry Ford championed the assembly line they arn't.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a thread complaining about how fuel prices are becoming expensive to the point of being unaffordable?
Also, cars are luxury items for many people. It makes it easier to get to work or go grocery shopping, but these things can be done without a car, it just takes a bit longer and requires a bit more effort.

You think Petrol and Diesel is expensive in the US?

Go to the UK!

We have the cheapest petrol in the world! Until you put tax on it. Then it's probably the most expensive.

Also, cars are luxury items for many people. It makes it easier to get to work or go grocery shopping, but these things can be done without a car, it just takes a bit longer and requires a bit more effort.

Around half of the cars on Earth are owned by 14% of the population. This means automobiles are still a luxury for much of the world's population, and will remain so for a long time.

That's as far as Earth is concerned. Got a statistic about US?

Sure, in big cities (public transport) and in small towns (you can walk) car is a luxury, but not in the suburbia. And not all people get there because they're rich. Some just live in their parents' house, which can be inherited.

That's as far as Earth is concerned. Got a statistic about US?

Sure, in big cities (public transport) and in small towns (you can walk) car is a luxury, but not in the suburbia. And not all people get there because they're rich. Some just live in their parents' house, which can be inherited.
Suburbs are luxuries and you can still bike around them. When I lived with my parents (in a suburb) my bike got me places faster than the bus did (mostly because I had to transfer on the bus).

Suburbs are luxuries and you can still bike around them. When I lived with my parents (in a suburb) my bike got me places faster than the bus did (mostly because I had to transfer on the bus).
Some are better laid out than others. The trend in Atlanta suburbs, anyway, is to put every house on a cul-de-sac. So every subdivision is an island, completely separate from any other subdivision. The only connecting roads are so heavily traveled that the bike paths are just another lane for auto traffic to use when things get bad.

Others -- I'm thinking about Monterey, CA and Oak Harbor, WA, in particular, are very easy to cycle and walk about. When I lived in Monterey, I did take my bicycle to work every decent day. Parking was the luxury, there.

Suburbs are luxuries and you can still bike around them.
But you have to go to the city for work. Motorbike will do, if it's not cold, bicycle, not so much.

But you have to go to the city for work. Motorbike will do, if it's not cold, bicycle, not so much.
That doesn't change that suburbs are luxuries. Having a big house on a large yard is a luxury, especially when that big house and yard are an hour's drive from your place of work.

And if you're in the suburbs and complaining about getting to the city for work, try biking to the bus or train station and then taking the bus or train into the city.

And if you're in the suburbs and complaining about getting to the city for work, try biking to the bus or train station and then taking the bus or train into the city.
If there is a bus station, much less a railroad there, that is.

And if you're in the suburbs and complaining about getting to the city for work, try biking to the bus or train station and then taking the bus or train into the city.

Lol. In Atlanta a lot of the suburban counties don't have any bus or train service at all. Paulding/Douglas/Coweta/Henry/Rockdale counties (outer ring of suburbs) don't have any at all. Clayton, Gwinnett, and Cobb County (inner ring of suburbs) Don't have trains, because they refused to join the area transportation system, and had to fund stand-alone non-performing systems, and in the urban core counties (Fulton/Dekalb) there aren't any organized large area serving bus stations at all (there are sone park and rides from freeway exits), and the trains stop at the airport/N. Springs, far from the prosperous suburbs that need the service into downtown.

Lol. In Atlanta a lot of the suburban counties don't have any bus or train service at all. Paulding/Douglas/Coweta/Henry/Rockdale counties (outer ring of suburbs) don't have any at all. Clayton, Gwinnett, and Cobb County (inner ring of suburbs) Don't have trains, because they refused to join the area transportation system, and had to fund stand-alone non-performing systems, and in the urban core counties (Fulton/Dekalb) there aren't any organized large area serving bus stations at all (there are sone park and rides from freeway exits), and the trains stop at the airport/N. Springs, far from the prosperous suburbs that need the service into downtown.
Then this is a problem.

Although if the voters gave a shit then they would probably have functional transportation systems... so really... if you didn't care enough to vote for a tax hike in order to get working public transportation systems then it's your own damn fault that you have shitty transit and when you can't afford to pay for gas anymore, your own inability to get to work. If people had some forethought and voted to fund these things, then this wouldn't be a problem, but people are idiots. And what do you know, there are consequences.

Then this is a problem.

Although if the voters gave a shit then they would probably have functional transportation systems... so really... if you didn't care enough to vote for a tax hike in order to get working public transportation systems then it's your own damn fault that you have shitty transit and when you can't afford to pay for gas anymore, your own inability to get to work. If people had some forethought and voted to fund these things, then this wouldn't be a problem, but people are idiots. And what do you know, there are consequences.

The inner ring counties actually voted to pay the mandated sales tax, and reject the service. The decision to ban the rail lines after approving the tax was done be county commisioners, not a public vote, after the tax was levied. Secondly, you do understand that you don't pass a tax in 2008 and have the rail line be finished by 2009, right?

My forethought/action was to move from a town where my commute would be 20+ miles each way to a town where my commute is 7 miles.

People don't want it, they want to drive cars.

And really they generally can afford it, it's mostly just bitching.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/noframes/24882.shtml
Or if you want something simpler:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/FEG/noframes/25254.shtml

Look, Dakini, you'll not find most of us disagreeing with you on a principle standpoint.

But that doesn't change the fact that your model is not how the United States is set up. We're set up for suburban neighborhoods, for bedroom communities, for required cars, etc etc.

That sort of thing simply cannot change overnight. It will have to change, of course, but it's not going to change overnight, nor will the other factors involved--level of wages, costs of other items, etc--so in the meantime, we CAN complain about the gas prices which ARE high for us due to our situation. Rather than dismissing such complaints as whines, you ought to look at the situation and recognize them for what they are.

We're set up for suburban neighborhoods, for bedroom communities, for required cars, etc etc.

That sort of thing simply cannot change overnight. It will have to change, of course,

It's easier to shift to electric cars all (well, most) at once and forget about the gas prices, than to change the way US is laid out.

It's easier to shift to electric cars all (well, most) at once and forget about the gas prices, than to change the way US is laid out.

No, it isn't, because no matter what we do, we need to build up new infrastructure. You think our electrical infrastructure can take the additional pressure shifting the nation to electric cars would bring? Please. Remember the blackout several years ago that affected a large portion of Ohio, New York, Wisconsin, Ontario, etc? That's small fries compared to what would happen.

And if we're building up new electrical infrastructure, we might as well build up new mass transit, especially trains. This country begs for trains. It's perfect for them. We need more.

No, it isn't, because no matter what we do, we need to build up new infrastructure. You think our electrical infrastructure can take the additional pressure shifting the nation to electric cars would bring? Please. Remember the blackout several years ago that affected a large portion of Ohio, New York, Wisconsin, Ontario, etc? That's small fries compared to what would happen.

And if we're building up new electrical infrastructure, we might as well build up new mass transit, especially trains. This country begs for trains. It's perfect for them. We need more.

Schwartzenegger's trying to build the California network, if he can get the bond through to borrow the $10,000,000,000 to build the La-Sacramento portion. There's a lot of empty, hilly wilderness between there and the next city worth it though.

No, it isn't, because no matter what we do, we need to build up new infrastructure. You think our electrical infrastructure can take the additional pressure shifting the nation to electric cars would bring? Please. Remember the blackout several years ago that affected a large portion of Ohio, New York, Wisconsin, Ontario, etc? That's small fries compared to what would happen.
Electric infrastructure is, generally, cheap. And very cheap compared to moving vast communities.

No, it isn't, because no matter what we do, we need to build up new infrastructure. You think our electrical infrastructure can take the additional pressure shifting the nation to electric cars would bring? Please. Remember the blackout several years ago that affected a large portion of Ohio, New York, Wisconsin, Ontario, etc? That's small fries compared to what would happen.

That was caused by a tree falling on a transformer in Ohio, not excessive power usage.

Electric infrastructure is, generally, cheap. And very cheap compared to moving vast communities.
True...I was referring more to building up mass transit, not so much moving communities.

That was caused by a tree falling on a transformer in Ohio, not excessive power usage.

Not the point. It demonstrates a serious fault in the electrical infrastructure, which needs to not only have most of its current structures replaced, but a large amount built new.

"Americans have taken advantage of cheap gas prices to do other things - like buy bigger cars and bigger houses further away from city centers..." And it's really up to you guys to change that. Using thrice as much and then complaining that you also have to pay thrice as much is a bit strange.

So quit whining and get started on changing your situation! You don't see me complaining much about high gas prices, I pretty much accepted them and do also see where the tax money goes - however, with the current situation, it just means I drive less, shift to a higher gear earlier, don't drive when I don't have to, and use other ways of commuting.

I'm fully aware that alternative means are not available everywhere in the U.S. - but that means that it's up to you personally to decide whether you can still afford a car or maybe have to carpool or move somewhere else.

"'Five-thousand square feet in the suburbs, that's much rarer in Europe,' said Schipper, referring to big homes. 'We dug our hole.'"

That you did by supporting the tendency of ever-expanding suburbia and thus rely on driving everywhere.

Nice generalizations there. Unfortunately I don't live in a suburb, I have a small apartment in the city, and the gas prices still hurt, thank you. I didn't buy a particularly large car, either.

I'll keep complaining, thanks.

Nice generalizations there. Unfortunately I don't live in a suburb, I have a small apartment in the city, and the gas prices still hurt, thank you. I didn't buy a particularly large car, either.

I'll keep complaining, thanks.
Out of curiosity, how do your monthly parking costs compare to your monthly gas costs? I guess insurance could even be the high cost of car ownership. What's the real expense of owning a car in the city?

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....


That's why I got my Harley... Motorcycles = awesome gas efficiency.

Lobby your government to get some.

My state is broke (largely because people don't buy American cars) and the Federal government doesn't care nor ever will care.

Think of how many people do this every day anyways because they can't afford cars. Cars are luxury items.

In the same way electricity and running water are luxuries. Sure, one can live without them but it does make life rather less pleasant.

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

My girlfriend lives in Asheville, I live in California. Normally, she laughs at me because her gas is 40-50 cents cheaper per gallon. This week it's my turn to laugh.

Maybe it was sporty in 1970s. Today it's more along the lines of "not a bus".

Say, the basic Evo has 0-60 time of 4.8s, and top speed is electronically limited at 155mph, but without that is around 170 if not tuned further. All with great handling and off-road performance, spacious saloon interior and boot, and being nearly $10,000 cheaper. Now that's sporty. TT is just sporty looking.

Lancer Evo epic win over Audi TT. Lancer EVO unregulated with tuner chips and increased cold air induction is scary fast. It's like an extremely cheap Enzo.

So the T in Boston, the L in Chicago, the Metro in DC and the subway in New York are all examples of failure in public transit... Yeah.

Even the citizens of New Delhi -- a candidate city for the worst traffic on earth -- are clamoring for the new Metro to be fully implemented.

Mass transit is one of the few things that are suitable for a government to construct and run. We should do everything we can to promote and use them.

While I agree with you that we should do everything to promote public transportation, these are large cities. I happen to live in the NY metro and use public transport whenever possible. This is much harder to do in the other areas of our country. With the current prices of electricity (what many subways and transit trains run on) going up the price of fares keeps going up. It seems like every month or so NJTransit and NYC Metrocards get more expensive.

In the same way electricity and running water are luxuries. Sure, one can live without them but it does make life rather less pleasant.
Not really. It's a lot easier to live without a car than without running water and electricity.

Not really. It's a lot easier to live without a car than without running water and electricity.

Not having a car is on the level of not having natural gas. You can still heat your place and have hot water/cook, but you're definitely going to have to change your life in some way to get it to work, and it's a lot easier not to have to rip everything up to change from one mode to another.

Not having a car is on the level of not having natural gas. You can still heat your place and have hot water/cook, but you're definitely going to have to change your life in some way to get it to work, and it's a lot easier not to have to rip everything up to change from one mode to another.
You could have started by not basing your life around something that requires a fuel that's running out?

Not really. It's a lot easier to live without a car than without running water and electricity.

Perhaps if you live somewhere with public transit and/or it's not subfreezing 5 months out of the year. Or perhaps somewhere suitably densely developed.

For a not insignificant amount of people a car is an absolute necessity. For example, this is where I grew up.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=riverdale,+michigan&ie=UTF8&ll=43.380224,-84.826298&spn=0.073113,0.181961&z=13

The "town" I grew up in had roughly 400 people or so, with the largest city within 15 miles being Alma with 10,000 people. The only businesses in Riverdale were the store and the bar, for a total of 6 jobs in the entire town. For me to work during high school (and I had to because my family was very poor) I absolutely had to have a car, as the only alternative was walking the back country roads in subzero weather for 10 miles (and all that there is between Riverdale and Alma are a few farmhouses, so there's not really anywhere to warm up) or to walk along the old train tracks for 15 miles.

We had one winter (winter of '96 to be exact) where we didn't have electricity much of the winter, due to my mother being laid off and the price of milk falling through the floor (for the low grade milk we produced). If we hadn't had vehicles to get to town to work we'd have been even more fucked than we were. At that point not being cold was a luxury but having a car was an absolute necessity.

Perhaps if you live somewhere with public transit and/or it's not subfreezing 5 months out of the year.

I live in Canada. It's freezing a bit more than 5 months of the year usually. I still walk, take the bus (including waiting in the snow for the stupid thing) and ride my bike.

Or perhaps somewhere suitably densely developed.

For a not insignificant amount of people a car is an absolute necessity. For example, this is where I grew up.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=riverdale,+michigan&ie=UTF8&ll=43.380224,-84.826298&spn=0.073113,0.181961&z=13

The "town" I grew up in had roughly 400 people or so, with the largest city within 15 miles being Alma with 10,000 people. The only businesses in Riverdale were the store and the bar, for a total of 6 jobs in the entire town. For me to work during high school (and I had to because my family was very poor) I absolutely had to have a car, as the only alternative was walking the back country roads in subzero weather for 10 miles (and all that there is between Riverdale and Alma are a few farmhouses, so there's not really anywhere to warm up) or to walk along the old train tracks for 15 miles.

We had one winter (winter of '96 to be exact) where we didn't have electricity much of the winter, due to my mother being laid off and the price of milk falling through the floor (for the low grade milk we produced). If we hadn't had vehicles to get to town to work we'd have been even more fucked than we were. At that point not being cold was a luxury but having a car was an absolute necessity.
This is a bit different than the situation most people are complaining about where they chose to live in some sprawling suburbs, then chose politicians who would lower taxes over improving public transit (where public transit could be done easily) and not add bike lanes to roads, and then go about bitching about how they're spending a tonne of money getting to and from work and there are no alternatives.

At that point not being cold was a luxury but having a car was an absolute necessity.
Well, to be fair, it could also be a bike, or even a bicycle. Having any vehicle, that's what was a necessity - it being a car is along the lines of not being cold on the way.

You could have started by not basing your life around something that requires a fuel that's running out?

That would require changing my life to a point that is, frankly not worth it.

To live without a car/gasoline would rewuire me to move to a large northeastern city or Chicago. This is something that will never happen.

The American social structure is built on the car. Deal with it.

That would require changing my life to a point that is, frankly not worth it.

To live without a car/gasoline would rewuire me to move to a large northeastern city or Chicago. This is something that will never happen.

The American social structure is built on the car. Deal with it.
Then quit bitching about the cost of fuel!

If you've evaluated your options and decided that the least painful thing you can do is pay more at the gas pump then suck it up. You've made your bed, now lie in it.

The American social structure is built on the car. Deal with it.

And so was that of Auckland. However, in the last few years, the bus routes have been improved, and old clapped out rail units have been refurbished, and guess what:

Public transport patronage has gone through the roof; in July, Auckland had the most public transport passengers since 1989. People that you would not expect to divorce from their cars have, and have been taking buses and trains to work. I wouldn't be surprised if it continues climbing for the month of August, before falling back heading into Summer (normally PT patronage in Auckland peaks in March & August).

Then quit bitching about the cost of fuel!

If you've evaluated your options and decided that the least painful thing you can do is pay more at the gas pump then suck it up. You've made your bed, now lie in it.

I never bitched about the COST of fuel. My first post in this thread was to commiserate with Myrmadonians about the lack of fuel, caused by a short-time event (Hurricane Ike), and the price gouging that occurs in such events.

I also said a bunch about the lack of public transport options in America, withough having to live in some crowded northern hell-hole like New York or Boston.

While I agree with you that we should do everything to promote public transportation, these are large cities. I happen to live in the NY metro and use public transport whenever possible. This is much harder to do in the other areas of our country. With the current prices of electricity (what many subways and transit trains run on) going up the price of fares keeps going up. It seems like every month or so NJTransit and NYC Metrocards get more expensive.
Charlotte, NC might not need a subway, but I bet they already have a bus system that could be improved. Same thing with Dallas, TX and any number of other medium sized cities. We need to examine what's there and see if it can't be improved. Buses do work pretty darned well, if they run predictably and reasonably often.

Fares are another issue. Increased ridership would reduce the need for increased fares. So would increased taxation. Pick your poison.

I live in Canada. It's freezing a bit more than 5 months of the year usually. I still walk, take the bus (including waiting in the snow for the stupid thing) and ride my bike.

As you saw from my Google Earth like I'm from Michigan and the town I reside in now is a bit further north than Toronto so the weather is likely to be quite similar between wherever you are and where I'm from. I used public transport when I lived in Germany and France and it was great. If it's available cars aren't all that necessary but it just simply isn't available in many places.

This is a bit different than the situation most people are complaining about where they chose to live in some sprawling suburbs, then chose politicians who would lower taxes over improving public transit (where public transit could be done easily) and not add bike lanes to roads, and then go about bitching about how they're spending a tonne of money getting to and from work and there are no alternatives.

My point exactly. There are a great many people who actually rely on cars. Yes, many of these suburbanites could easily get along without it, but there are those who really, actually can't.

Well, to be fair, it could also be a bike, or even a bicycle. Having any vehicle, that's what was a necessity - it being a car is along the lines of not being cold on the way.

When it's below freezing it's really a safety issue. Walking 2 or 3 hours to town when it's windy and snowing isn't going to be good for your health and if you have an accident (twist an ankle or something) it could be over an hour before someone comes along on some of those roads. The roads out there aren't plowed with anything approaching regularity so you'd probably be better off walking than riding a bike.

Also, walking down a state highway with a speed limit of 55mph during slippery conditions (and the idiots WILL drive 55mph or over) is also not exactly safe. Using the most direct route in my example I used would have you traveling along roads with either forest or 4-5 foot deep ditches alongside the entire way. Neither are a treat to walk in during the winter.

I never bitched about the COST of fuel. My first post in this thread was to commiserate with Myrmadonians about the lack of fuel, caused by a short-time event (Hurricane Ike), and the price gouging that occurs in such events.

I also said a bunch about the lack of public transport options in America, withough having to live in some crowded northern hell-hole like New York or Boston.
Words after my own heart, although, I'm not sure Boston quite qualifies as the same level of hell-hole as does NYC. Somehow, the people of Boston seem to make visitors feel wanted and welcome.

Y'know, prices would be way better if inflation due to the dollar wasn't so damn high...

I would also poiint out that many of us, myself included, actually rely on thier cars for thier jobs. If I cant drive, I dont work, and well, thats just not feasible.

This is compounded by a system where there are no checks or balances for oil prices.
The "high cost" of oil production is complete bullshit, when these companies are making RECORD profits. They are making more money than ever before.

Why?

Becuase theres nothing we can do to stop them.

Most of us cant simply NOT buy it.

Ike didnt do nearly as much damage as expected, and yet, "somehow" rumours in my town spread like wildfire yesterday. Every single station in town was PACKED. Someone would say gas was 6 or 7 dollars the next town over, and poof!
Instant panic.
It rose to 4.19 a gallon, and people were actually relieved.
Relieved to be merely fucked, instead of insanely fucked.

So is this 'fucking gas' some kind of aphrodisiac?

0,033$ a liter. Full tank of 30ish liters, 1$, that lasts for a week.

Not really high. Water is more expensive.

Y'know, prices would be way better if inflation due to the dollar wasn't so damn high...
This is a self-fulfilling problem.

"Bugger me, oil prices are rising due to inflation, eh?"
"Quite, inflation is rising due to oil prices being what they are, too"

I can't find any news source on it, but today I've heard that gas production is cut in half because of Hurricane Ike. Gas here in North Carolina are now $4.29. We have reserves, but of course Bush won't open them. See, this is the fucking problem with electing an oil man for President! Any other President would not hessistate to open up the reserves! Jeez, some of us live in a tight budget and can't spend $50 to $100 on a tank of gas!

God...I swear....Americans are getting fucked in the ass, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it because we're stupid enough to vote in an Oil man...twice....

What per litre?

What per litre?
Why would anyone care about the price per liter? No one even knows what a liter is. Is it ten pounds? 3 ounces?

Why would anyone care about the price per liter? No one even knows what a liter is. Is it ten pounds? 3 ounces?

The rest of the world might get a better picture of why you are all whining about your heavily subsidised petrol prices.

They're up in the 3.40s here, from being close to 3.20 last week.

Still, this'll blow over.

A gallon, by the way, is 3.785 liters. Meaning the price I pay per liter is roughly $0.898 per liter.

Nope, nevermind, did it right.

Why would anyone care about the price per liter? No one even knows what a liter is. Is it ten pounds? 3 ounces?

So you are talking about price per gallon?

So you are talking about price per gallon?

I think it might be firkins.

The rest of the world might get a better picture of why you are all whining about your heavily subsidised petrol prices.
But my thoughts there are that they don't matter anymore than the liter does. Our internal problems are our own...

A gallon, by the way, is 3.785 liters. Meaning the price I pay per liter is roughly $0.898 per liter.

Nope, nevermind, did it right.
Did I mention how much nicer New Delhi is after the big conversion to CNG? Wow! You can breath air that seems fairly clean.

And the Metro is great, too. I used it one night after our driver ran out of gas. It had a station right by the hotel. If it only ran to Najafgarh, I would have used it every day.

But my thoughts there are that they don't matter anymore than the liter does. Our internal problems are our own...

Bwahaha okay by that response which totaly dodges my question, I'll take it you mean gallon(and please do let me know if I'm wrong). So you are moaning that you have to pay well lets round it up to $4.00 a gallon, shit man we have to pay £2.00 a litre here. Suck it up man, I thought you lived in one of the richest places in the world, I understood that your standard of living far exceedes mine, so whats the problem?

They are talking about gallons, read the thread, and we don't pay £2 per litre, we pay £1.15, which is about 11 dollars per gallon, for the Americans.

Did I mention how much nicer New Delhi is after the big conversion to CNG? Wow! You can breath air that seems fairly clean.

And the Metro is great, too. I used it one night after our driver ran out of gas. It had a station right by the hotel. If it only ran to Najafgarh, I would have used it every day.

Your driver ran out of gas?! Geez. I'm glad that never happened to me while we were rickshawing around Bombay.

Good to see the air's cleaner over there. One of the memories that sticks out the most to me about visiting India was the ever-present smell of tar and gas.

I'll have to hear about the trip some time.

They are talking about gallons, read the thread, and we don't pay £2 per litre, we pay £1.15, which is about 11 dollars per gallon, for the Americans.

Shit maybe up in Bristol you do, but not down here in London, its around the £1.90ish mark(I was rounding up)

Jesus are you serious? I thought we had it bad.

What is CNG? This term keeps getting tossed around and I don't recognize what it is. (Beyond the obvious implication of natural gas.)

What is CNG? This term keeps getting tossed around and I don't recognize what it is. (Beyond the obvious implication of natural gas.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas

Your driver ran out of gas?! Geez. I'm glad that never happened to me while we were rickshawing around Bombay.


It's funny now. Then we were wet, muddy, and tired.

We hire the car and driver. This is his job... He picks us up at the hotel and takes us to the worksite. Waits... Takes us back to the hotel. In the three weeks that he was doing this, I never saw more than a quarter tank in the Toyota 'Landcruiser look-alike'. He was a pretty good driver, though. No accidents in three weeks is pretty good. He was also pretty personable. Even with the periodic jibes over no gas in the tank.

I gave Ravi Shankar (no relation, I assume) a $40 tip and told him to treat the car to half a tank of gas.

Bwahaha okay by that response which totaly dodges my question, I'll take it you mean gallon(and please do let me know if I'm wrong). So you are moaning that you have to pay well lets round it up to $4.00 a gallon, shit man we have to pay £2.00 a litre here. Suck it up man, I thought you lived in one of the richest places in the world, I understood that your standard of living far exceedes mine, so whats the problem?
Yes gallon. You should read back about what I've said regarding the price. I would just as soon it was able to float up to $5 or $6 per gallon and avoid the shortages that we're now starting to see.

This will all pass in a short time, though.

When it's over, we'll pay much less than you do, but I would be that lion's share of your price per liter is what the government takes.

Yeah, we get taxed a lot, and guess what they wanna do now? Yes, tax it more. They wanted a 2p tax, but everyone was like "fuck off".

I paid $3.57 this morning. But it's up quite a bit in the last few days. Still, Oklahoma has some of the lowest gas prices in the US.

It's funny now. Then we were wet, muddy, and tired.

We hire the car and driver. This is his job... He picks us up at the hotel and takes us to the worksite. Waits... Takes us back to the hotel. In the three weeks that he was doing this, I never saw more than a quarter tank in the Toyota 'Landcruiser look-alike'. He was a pretty good driver, though. No accidents in three weeks is pretty good. He was also pretty personable. Even with the periodic jibes over no gas in the tank.

I gave Ravi Shankar (no relation, I assume) a $40 tip and told him to treat the car to half a tank of gas.

Hmm. Guy probably found it cheaper to only ever fill up that much. But still, odd. (And no, Shankar's not really uncommon).

We took a Tata car out to a place called Mahableshwar, about 180 miles from Mumbai. The driver was a fairly quiet fellow, but all in all we never had a gas problem on the road.

I actually picked up quite a few neat souvenirs from that trip, and almost convinced my folks to pick up a chess set with pieces made from laquered silver. Intricate as hell, but apparently too expensive.

Doesn't everybody still call it Bombay?

I actually picked up quite a few neat souvenirs from that trip, and almost convinced my folks to pick up a chess set with pieces made from laquered silver. Intricate as hell, but apparently too expensive.
I didn't find any good souvenirs from this trip. All they had out for tourists were the cheap pieces of junk that I always ignore. I did see a nice Persian rug, but we couldn't come together on a price, so it's still hanging in the shop. I would have liked to have stumbled across a nice chess set like that.

I did get the traditional marble plate from our representative, plus a nice afternoon of drinking in a pub at Connaught place. I'd forgotten how pleasant it is to just sit around and do nothing for an afternoon.

And to tie back into the thread, is CNG produced in India? I noticed it was about Rs 18 per liter. Surely, that's a heavily subsidized price...

Doesn't everybody still call it Bombay?

I tend to, more often than not. I think I just fell into the Mahableshwar miles Mumbai alliteration.

I didn't find any good souvenirs from this trip. All they had out for tourists were the cheap pieces of junk that I always ignore. I did see a nice Persian rug, but we couldn't come together on a price, so it's still hanging in the shop. I would have liked to have stumbled across a nice chess set like that.

I did get the traditional marble plate from our representative, plus a nice afternoon of drinking in a pub at Connaught place. I'd forgotten how pleasant it is to just sit around and do nothing for an afternoon.

And to tie back into the thread, is CNG produced in India? I noticed it was about Rs 18 per liter. Surely, that's a heavily subsidized price...

Yeah, I spent a few days shopping around in Bombay and Mahableshwar to fill out my list of souvenirs (I tend to bring lots of gifts back for people). It was all in all pretty cheap. Back in '98 I bought a marble chess set with velvet cushioning in the interior and marble pieces for about $15.

As for CNG, it has to be the result of massive subsidies. I know that New Delhi's public transportation is supposed to be entirely run on CNG and their buses are the largest fleet of CNG buses in the world.

Parts of the US also have CNG subsidies, from the looks of it. Wiki says Utah has them for $0.85 for an amount of CNG equivalent to a gallon, and it's supposed to be $2.50 for a gallon equivalent in other parts of the country. However, I can't find yet anything that says where it's produced.

And to tie back into the thread, is CNG produced in India? I noticed it was about Rs 18 per liter. Surely, that's a heavily subsidized price...

I'm fairly sure they do, they might even export it.

Doesn't everybody still call it Bombay?
Not that I saw in printed material... The travel billboards and signs at travel offices always mentioned Mumbai. As did the English language local papers like the Hindustan Times.

Oh. The Indian people I've met all call it Bombay.

Oh. The Indian people I've met all call it Bombay.

Are these generally people who immigrated to the UK years ago?

Rubbish. Sports cars mainly get between 8 and 15mpg. A proper car gets up to 70 if it's a diesel (which beats the shit out of a Prius and does less damage to the world in its production in doing so, actually).

Um. No.

My Civic SI ( 07 ) has 197 Horsepower and averages 34mpg. Its not a true sports car, but it moves pretty good. ( 0-60 in 6.1 seconds ).

My 1995 Thunderbird LX with heads, cam, intake, exahust, TBS and other upgrades which puts 321 horsepower to the wheels averages 30 on the highway ( if u keep it consistent ) and 15 around town.

I can go on and on.

But sports cars do NOT get 8-15mpg.


And I will agree, the US is NOT setup for mass transit outside of cities. Its just to large to be cost effective.

Besides, I'd rather drive to work listening to my music in a nice quiet warm car then go on a noisy bus full of weridos every morning.

Not that I saw in printed material... The travel billboards and signs at travel offices always mentioned Mumbai. As did the English language local papers like the Hindustan Times.

Wait, Bombay got renamed?

When did this happen?

Ahh but they have caved on the offshore part. It will be coming up soon. Also the Bakken Formation (http://bakkenoil.blogspot.com/2008/04/usgs-2001-bakken-assessment.html) is getting ready to go online (300) wells. It has almost as much oil as Saudi Arabia.

No, it doesn't...

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13753945&postcount=72

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

...3.65 billion does not equal 264 billion.

Heres another one.

Don't buy a peice of shit eco car like a prius.

Change how you drive.

Tips to Save gas without being a moron:

1. Keep at 65 baby, 55 is bullshit. Cars are geared for their best mpg at 65. But if you go 75 you'll lose 5 mpg. So no speeding.
2. go faster downhills as much as possible without changing gear, that gives you momentum to get up the next hill.
3. Get up to cruising speed nice and slow, do not be unsafe, but no gunning the engine either.
4. Change gear as little as possible.
5. When on the highway, use the cruise control to go between 60-70mph, this will use MUCH less fuel as the the engine will not throttle nearly as much.
6. Check your tires, your air filter, spark plugs and keep your oil changed when its supposed to be. These little tune ups can REALLY high your mpg.
7. Use the AC on the highway, its better.
8. DO NOT turn your engine on and off in traffic, this causes very bad engine wear, and also wont save you a DIME in fuel. ( it takes ALOT of fuel to start an engine )

I can add more if you want. But the point is, don't change your car, just change you drive.

Ive been seeing big cars like my T-bird, Lincolns, Caddies, and other big boats and even sports cars getting up to 30mpg, just by being driven smartly.

wait, bombay got renamed?

When did this happen?

1995

Public transit doesn't exist everywhere, in fact it doesn't exist in most places. Also, riding a bike kinda sucks when you have to go 5 miles and it's 33 degrees and raining.

Or when your balance is as bad as mine. I never did figure out how to keep one of those damned things upright.

I'm fully aware that alternative means are not available everywhere in the U.S. - but that means that it's up to you personally to decide whether you can still afford a car or maybe have to carpool or move somewhere else.

I'll ask you the same thing I ask the people who tell me if I don't like America I should leave. Are YOU offering me the money I would need to do so?

I'll ask you the same thing I ask the people who tell me if I don't like America I should leave. Are YOU offering me the money I would need to do so?

Why should anyone have to offer you the money? You're the one who's bothered enough by the problem to mention it here. You want solutions, GN offered one.

I'll ask you the same thing I ask the people who tell me if I don't like America I should leave. Are YOU offering me the money I would need to do so?
Are you hinting that you'd leave for the price of a one-way airline ticket?

Personally I have a great solution:

A) Take the train
B) Take the bus
C) Buy an electric car
D) Walk. If people did this once in a while people wouldn't be obese.

Personally I have a great solution:

A) Take the train
B) Take the bus
C) Buy an electric car
D) Walk. If people did this once in a while people wouldn't be obese.


A: No Train
B: No Bus
C: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH * breaths * HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
D: Walk 25 miles to work? Nah.

Its not just me, its the same way for MOST of the USA.

I'll ask you the same thing I ask the people who tell me if I don't like America I should leave. Are YOU offering me the money I would need to do so?

Man in this time of mass illegal immigration(or so we are told) how easy would it be to sneak out of the country and into Mexico!

A: No Train
B: No Bus
C: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH * breaths * HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
D: Walk 25 miles to work? Nah.

Its not just me, its the same way for MOST of the USA.

No it isn't. "Most"? No. I'd buy about half, and that would be a stretch.

No it isn't. "Most"? No. I'd buy about half, and that would be a stretch.
The 2000 US census reported an average of 25.5 minutes to work. Most workers, 3 of 4 did that commute by themselves in a car. If you figure about 30 mph for an average speed, that's about 12 miles, one way -- average.

I wouldn't expect people to walk or ride bikes for any distance over a couple miles, so I'd say way over half the USA is stuck using a car.

The 2000 US census reported an average of 25.5 minutes to work. Most workers, 3 of 4 did that commute by themselves in a car. If you figure about 30 mph for an average speed, that's about 12 miles, one way -- average.

I wouldn't expect people to walk or ride bikes for any distance over a couple miles, so I'd say way over half the USA is stuck using a car.

Certainly no way I'd be able to make it up the NJ Parkway in a bike.

The 2000 US census reported an average of 25.5 minutes to work. Most workers, 3 of 4 did that commute by themselves in a car. If you figure about 30 mph for an average speed, that's about 12 miles, one way -- average.

I wouldn't expect people to walk or ride bikes for any distance over a couple miles, so I'd say way over half the USA is stuck using a car.

Nice guesswork. Does it say how many of the 3 of 4 had viable transit options and chose not to use them?

Nice guesswork. Does it say how many of the 3 of 4 had viable transit options and chose not to use them?

Viable transit options aren't as common as they should be. If you live in Southern California, for instance, they're practically non-existent. Before I retired my option was drive my car 7 miles to work (took about 45 minutes, believe it or not - traffic was that bad), vanpool - which meant driving 8 miles in the opposite direction to the ride 'n' park site and spending an hour in the van or taking the bus which meant three transfers and getting up at 4:00 am in order to get to work 15 minutes late. This is typical throughout SoCal. I'm sure other places are worse. Maybe a few are better, but they're few and far between. Maybe the best option for energy savings isn't energy saving vehicles, maybe it's improving transit - making it comfortable, inexpensive, clean, user-friendly and punctual - there's a laugh.

Nice guesswork. Does it say how many of the 3 of 4 had viable transit options and chose not to use them?
Let's just use common sense. If it's easier to drive one's self to work, that probably means that viable alternatives didn't exist.

Up and down the East coast, people look for, and find, ways to avoid driving by themselves. Commuter trains are better developed and they are used. That sort of system doesn't seem to exist anywhere else. So, if you're not in the Boston, Philly, NYC, DC area, you are just plain out of luck.

Viable transit options aren't as common as they should be. If you live in Southern California, for instance, they're practically non-existent. Before I retired my option was drive my car 7 miles to work (took about 45 minutes, believe it or not - traffic was that bad), vanpool - which meant driving 8 miles in the opposite direction to the ride 'n' park site and spending an hour in the van or taking the bus which meant three transfers and getting up at 4:00 am in order to get to work 15 minutes late. This is typical throughout SoCal. I'm sure other places are worse. Maybe a few are better, but they're few and far between. Maybe the best option for energy savings isn't energy saving vehicles, maybe it's improving transit - making it comfortable, inexpensive, clean, user-friendly and punctual - there's a laugh.

Living in Tucson I rode the bus everywhere, we paid about $5 for a day pass that would let you ride all day long, they had buses every mile going north and south, and every few miles going east and west. I could get anywhere I wanted quickly and easily.

It's not the same here. Each bus has a "route" which means that in order for my husband to get to work, he would have to wake up 4 hours early, catch a bus to the main terminal, wait there for 2 hours, catch a bus to a stop, walk 3 miles and catch another bus to near his job, then walk another 2 miles to his office.

Let's just use common sense. If it's easier to drive one's self to work, that probably means that viable alternatives didn't exist.

Up and down the East coast, people look for, and find, ways to avoid driving by themselves. Commuter trains are better developed and they are used. That sort of system doesn't seem to exist anywhere else. So, if you're not in the Boston, Philly, NYC, DC area, you are just plain out of luck.

Unless you're in Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, LA, Denver, Chicago, or other cities with good bus or rail systems.

How is it common sense to assume that if one is driving that there's no other options? I know plenty of people who could easily ride a bus but choose not to not out of inconvenience but out of "don't like the bus" faux-individualism -- therefore I have to assume there are more. Having to get up an hour earlier or not get home an hour later is an inconvenience, sure, but weighed against cost, if cost is your ultimate concern? That's up to each of us, I guess.

Odd question. Is it more economically viable to have a car, and not worry about the gas prices, if with the car you can live in a more cost-efficient city? It looks like it would be for me.

Odd question. Is it more economically viable to have a car, and not worry about the gas prices, if with the car you can live in a more cost-efficient city? It looks like it would be for me.
Not odd at all. In beginning calculus, we did marginal cost and marginal return curves and determined how to optimize them. Simplistic stuff, but with some real world implications. There is always a break-even point. There's always a most efficient choice. The trick is to figure out how to measure it and how to find out when you're there. It's a good MIMO problem that probably has a solution, once you assign a cost to the variables.

Unless you're in Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, LA, Denver, Chicago, or other cities with good bus or rail systems.

How is it common sense to assume that if one is driving that there's no other options? I know plenty of people who could easily ride a bus but choose not to not out of inconvenience but out of "don't like the bus" faux-individualism -- therefore I have to assume there are more. Having to get up an hour earlier or not get home an hour later is an inconvenience, sure, but weighed against cost, if cost is your ultimate concern? That's up to each of us, I guess.
Cost is measured in many different ways. It can be the discomfort of rising early and returning home late. It can be the hours wasted in the commute because you can't do productive work. It could be just the lousy conditions that exist on the bus... My point is that cost is not always monetary.

Clearly, if your acquaintances choose not to ride the bus, when it's an viable solution, it's not an acceptable solution. Because in some form or another, it costs too much.

Just pointing something out...the biggest reason why my dad goes to work by public transport (which takes ages and is a thoroughly unpleasant experience at the times he needs to commute) is because there are no parking spaces in the city.

Hazarding the guess that this plays a big role in people's choice of transport in the US too, maybe the availability of parking or lack thereof would be much better mechanism to influence how people get to work than coming in there with laws and taxes and all that crap.

Cost is measured in many different ways. It can be the discomfort of rising early and returning home late. It can be the hours wasted in the commute because you can't do productive work. It could be just the lousy conditions that exist on the bus... My point is that cost is not always monetary.

Clearly, if your acquaintances choose not to ride the bus, when it's an viable solution, it's not an acceptable solution. Because in some form or another, it costs too much.

Being away from the family for an extra 3-5 hours a day isn't worth the money we spend on gas to hubby. He would spend double that to have that time.

I'm parking my vehicle indefinately.

A few things have factored into this decision.

1: Insurance costs...I'd be paying about $150 a month just to keep my vehicle on the road legally.

2: Gas prices...freaking ridiculous.

3: Good transit...I can walk the kids to school and catch the bus to the University. I pay $75 for a full semester for my bus pass.

Environmental concerns are also important, but I'll be honest and admit that a convenience has become an inconvenience. This is why I think the best way to address environmental concerns in regards to transportation is to continue to make it inconvenient for single-occupant drivers (in particular) and to make it much easier to access public transportation.

I'm parking my vehicle indefinately.

A few things have factored into this decision.

1: Insurance costs...I'd be paying about $150 a month just to keep my vehicle on the road legally.

2: Gas prices...freaking ridiculous.

3: Good transit...I can walk the kids to school and catch the bus to the University. I pay $75 for a full semester for my bus pass.

Environmental concerns are also important, but I'll be honest and admit that a convenience has become an inconvenience. This is why I think the best way to address environmental concerns in regards to transportation is to continue to make it inconvenient for single-occupant drivers (in particular) and to make it much easier to access public transportation.


You're fortunate to live in a place where public transportation is convenient, cheap and comfortable.

Someday, maybe ...

Let's just use common sense. If it's easier to drive one's self to work, that probably means that viable alternatives didn't exist.
...

Common sense doesnt work just that way. I live in Prague, one of the cityes with the best public transportation system i know of, and still I see people riding a car, alone, to and from work.
The situation is becoming just better now altough it took a flood to have people learn to use P+R.

The 2000 US census reported an average of 25.5 minutes to work. Most workers, 3 of 4 did that commute by themselves in a car. If you figure about 30 mph for an average speed, that's about 12 miles, one way -- average.

I wouldn't expect people to walk or ride bikes for any distance over a couple miles, so I'd say way over half the USA is stuck using a car.
how do you figure that? Ever tried driving through a city at 30 mph?
Try it one day and see how far you get!

When I was at Uni, I lived 6 miles away near a major route. I always biked cause: 1. I was too broke to have a car or even take the bus; and 2. I would always beat the bus (and most cars) to and from college. It would take me roughly 25 minutes each way.
That's door-to-door too, so add in several more minutes for a car-driver to find a parking spot. Few times I did get a ride with someone it was more hassle than it was worth and we'd end up parking nigh-on a mile away from Uni, as that was the closest spot!
That was 7 years ago. I daresay it takes longer to drive those 6 miles nowadays.

Biggest reason ppl use cars over public transport or cycling is the mindset that it's more convenient and quicker to do so.

Just pointing something out...the biggest reason why my dad goes to work by public transport (which takes ages and is a thoroughly unpleasant experience at the times he needs to commute) is because there are no parking spaces in the city.

Hazarding the guess that this plays a big role in people's choice of transport in the US too, maybe the availability of parking or lack thereof would be much better mechanism to influence how people get to work than coming in there with laws and taxes and all that crap.

That's being tried in Prague.
And I must say that, although it's a pain, it seems to be working.

The more people demand better routes, more routes and other things of public transit, the more likely they are to be tried. You get nowhere with it by giving up on it.

The more people demand better routes, more routes and other things of public transit, the more likely they are to be tried. You get nowhere with it by giving up on it.

The issue is that you need some sort of turning point before you will see demand increase. In Auckland, the turning point was the introduction of the ADKs and ADLs in 1993; in Brisbane, it was winning the rights to host the 1982 Commonwealth Games; in other cities it can be anything as small as a change of government, or as large as winning the right to host a major sporting event - but you need that turning point.

Also, I must agree with you, people must try. In Auckland, we have the Campaign for Better Transport who has been advocating for improvements since 2001; most of the improvements that they have campaigned for have either happened, are in the process of occurring, or are being earmarked to happen in the future.

Just pointing something out...the biggest reason why my dad goes to work by public transport (which takes ages and is a thoroughly unpleasant experience at the times he needs to commute) is because there are no parking spaces in the city.

Hazarding the guess that this plays a big role in people's choice of transport in the US too, maybe the availability of parking or lack thereof would be much better mechanism to influence how people get to work than coming in there with laws and taxes and all that crap.
And that is exactly why I use public transport in cities where it's available. I never rent a car in Boston, unless I need to head out of town from the airport. The parking sucks and the stress of driving around there is just too much. Walking a couple blocks at the end of the train ride is a nice way to collect thoughts and stretch legs, too.

I'm all for using public transport. But it's going to have to be an attractive or appealing solution, not simply viable, for it to be used in the US suburbs.

I'm all for using public transport. But it's going to have to be an attractive or appealing solution, not simply viable, for it to be used in the US suburbs.

Nice gentle train ride vs hour long gridlock?

Nice gentle train ride vs hour long gridlock?

What if there is no train?

Don't forget the factor that many people just *want* to have a car and drive to work in it.

In part, it's just avoiding saying "I can't afford to drive, so I ride a bus".
In other part, it's actually irrationally liking the process of driving. I remember as Clarky mentioned in Speed, that they have actually built and tested cars that drive themselves, but people really didn't like that - and so, the main issue in active safety is balancing between actual safety and still letting the driver feel in control.

And that attitude is the strongest in US, where car is the real national symbol.

Nice gentle train ride vs hour long gridlock?

Depends on the situation. I'd hate to have to ride the Transit in the middle of the morning or evening rush, and the time I head up to Newark has minimal traffic. (Getting back is a problem, but then, it always is).

What if there is no train?

Take the spoon instead.

The 2000 US census reported an average of 25.5 minutes to work. Most workers, 3 of 4 did that commute by themselves in a car. If you figure about 30 mph for an average speed, that's about 12 miles, one way -- average.

I wouldn't expect people to walk or ride bikes for any distance over a couple miles, so I'd say way over half the USA is stuck using a car.
heh, that's pretty cool... my trip to work each morning is 12 miles on the motorway and it usually takes about 25 minutes door-to-door (as long as the motorway isn't snarled up)


three people in the office here drive a car in. the other three or four take the train - one of them for a 60 mile (minimum) commute each morning. you can do either here, but it depends where you live - whether you're close to the station or not. for me, it would take 40 minutes to walk to the train station from home, an hour train journey (which is 25 mins in the car), and a 20 minute walk to the office at the other end. so that's pretty much two hours for walking/train vs 25 mins in my car... no contest. and i occasionally have to do that (and it sucks)

the alternative is a 20 minute cycle ride to the sation, but there's nowhere to lock up your bike there, and no (real) cycle lanes on the way, which is terrifying. and the bus is a discrace - its "on the hour" plus/minus 20 minutes either way... you can get there in plenty of time and still find you've missed the fucker, or be hanging around for 40 minutes (in which case i could have walked)

i'm still using my car, dispite fuel costs, because until public transport gets better integrated, its shit.

that said, fuel costs are coming back down over here :)

how do you figure that? Ever tried driving through a city at 30 mph?
Try it one day and see how far you get!

When I was at Uni, I lived 6 miles away near a major route. I always biked cause: 1. I was too broke to have a car or even take the bus; and 2. I would always beat the bus (and most cars) to and from college. It would take me roughly 25 minutes each way.
That's door-to-door too, so add in several more minutes for a car-driver to find a parking spot. Few times I did get a ride with someone it was more hassle than it was worth and we'd end up parking nigh-on a mile away from Uni, as that was the closest spot!
That was 7 years ago. I daresay it takes longer to drive those 6 miles nowadays.

Biggest reason ppl use cars over public transport or cycling is the mindset that it's more convenient and quicker to do so.

I live 7.1 miles from campus, and I can drive there in 15 minutes, through downtown. Sounds about right.

Nice gentle train ride vs hour long gridlock?

If you can build it out to the suburbs.

And with the typical spread of the average southern/western suburb it would be more like a 15 minute ride to a downtown that doesn't really exist, or to a mall + 40 minute train ride to the real downtown vs. hour gridlock. And that's if you don't work in a "satellite downtown" which is basically a false downtown commercial area constructed closer to the suburbs that they serve.

Times for those would be quicker if you live in the correct direction, and worse if you have to transfer through a central hub station.

Caveat: I am basing this on Atlanta which is the only metropolitan area I've lived in as an adult, and which can't get their act together.

Nice gentle train ride vs hour long gridlock?
Yep. That's what I like... I'd like it even more if the train ride was from where I live to where I work, or within a reasonable distance thereof...

Caveat: I am basing this on Atlanta which is the only metropolitan area I've lived in as an adult, and which can't get their act together.

Atlanta does have a lot of buses. If you can figure out the schedules from the MARTA station to where you want to go, it's usually accessible. But it takes a Ph.D. in Operations Research to figure out how the bus runs it's route.

They make you drill down through the schedule to find the route and map, but it should go the other way. Map->schedule->bus number

http://www.itsmarta.com/getthere/schedules/index-bus.htm

The more people demand better routes, more routes and other things of public transit, the more likely they are to be tried. You get nowhere with it by giving up on it.

There aren't many like-minded people in my area. It took us 15 years to get bike trails and they kinda still suck. We're working now to campaign for better public transportation and save the train tracks the city is trying to tear down in order to widen a highway. When you have 400 people telling the other million things like this........we end up looking like whack jobs.

Our city is completely spread out, urban sprawl is so bad that the city has actually moved beyond it's boundaries so many times that we have incorporated like 6 other small towns, and yet, we build out more and more.

NYC is "big" but compact, my city in miles is about 3 times the size of NYC, when buses don't even go to 80% of the city, it's not a matter of "I like my car" so much as "I don't have an extra 8 hours a day to screw with the bus."

Downtown has gotten better. I can park on the outer edge and ride the trolley-bus all day. If they modeled the bus system after that, tons more people would be willing and able to use the bus. If they would quit ripping up our train infrastructure and fix it up, we could have trains running efficiently throughout the incorporated cities and even out into the suburbs and people wouldn't have to drive their car into the city, they could catch the train and then a bus.

I can't fund it myself and I can't make the city council listen. No matter how many meetings I go to, they won't put me on the agenda. All they want is a new I-40. :(

There aren't many like-minded people in my area. It took us 15 years to get bike trails and they kinda still suck. We're working now to campaign for better public transportation and save the train tracks the city is trying to tear down in order to widen a highway. When you have 400 people telling the other million things like this........we end up looking like whack jobs.

Our city is completely spread out, urban sprawl is so bad that the city has actually moved beyond it's boundaries so many times that we have incorporated like 6 other small towns, and yet, we build out more and more.

NYC is "big" but compact, my city in miles is about 3 times the size of NYC, when buses don't even go to 80% of the city, it's not a matter of "I like my car" so much as "I don't have an extra 8 hours a day to screw with the bus."

Downtown has gotten better. I can park on the outer edge and ride the trolley-bus all day. If they modeled the bus system after that, tons more people would be willing and able to use the bus. If they would quit ripping up our train infrastructure and fix it up, we could have trains running efficiently throughout the incorporated cities and even out into the suburbs and people wouldn't have to drive their car into the city, they could catch the train and then a bus.

I can't fund it myself and I can't make the city council listen. No matter how many meetings I go to, they won't put me on the agenda. All they want is a new I-40. :(



What city is this?

What city is this?

Oklahoma City.

It is the most densely populated major city in the United States, with an estimated 8,274,527 people[1] within an area of 304.8 square miles (789.43 km2).

the city has a total area of 621.2 square miles (1,608.8 km²), of which, 607.0 square miles (1,572.1 km²) of it is land and 14.2 square miles (36.7 km²) of it is water.

That's just OKC proper, if you get into some of the smaller incorporated cities like I live in.....it's bigger. Then there are suburbs and then cities outside the suburbs.......where lots of people live but nearly nobody works, not even grocery stores or gas stations, those are all in the city.

Edit for news link explaining http://www.normantranscript.com/localnews/local_story_261002230

Apparently petrol prices are to go down in the U.K. this week.

Apparently petrol prices are to go down in the U.K. this week.
Depends what happens to the Pound and the Dollar.

Atlanta does have a lot of buses. If you can figure out the schedules from the MARTA station to where you want to go, it's usually accessible. But it takes a Ph.D. in Operations Research to figure out how the bus runs it's route.

They make you drill down through the schedule to find the route and map, but it should go the other way. Map->schedule->bus number

http://www.itsmarta.com/getthere/schedules/index-bus.htm

If you live in the right county, there are a good amount of buses. the issue is 3/5 of the core urban counties refuse to join MARTA because they think we're going to invade the suburbs from Decatur and rob everyone.

That said, I used to be able to ride a couple of set routes that I used a lot when I lived there from near home and I could cut out a lot of trips:
West Stone Mountain > 120 > 2 > Georgia Tech/North Av. If you caught it right it was faster than transferring at 5 Points.
Stone Mtn. > 120/121 > 36 > Dekalb Medical Center.

But most suburbanites don't have the luxury of being as close to the core as West Stone Mountain. Getting in from say, Snellville / Collins Hill / Canton / Peachtree City area would be impossible, I assume.

If you live in the right county, there are a good amount of buses. the issue is 3/5 of the core urban counties refuse to join MARTA because they think we're going to invade the suburbs from Decatur and rob everyone.

But the robbery is more subtle than just home invasions. When I see ( and I don't live in a Metro county) the costs required for allowing MARTA to your county, I'd probably vote against it, too. Clearly MARTA is trying to force the suburban counties to pay far more than their share, while trying to diminish the costs in the urban counties, despite the greater services that they receive.

But the robbery is more subtle than just home invasions. When I see ( and I don't live in a Metro county) the costs required for allowing MARTA to your county, I'd probably vote against it, too. Clearly MARTA is trying to force the suburban counties to pay far more than their share, while trying to diminish the costs in the urban counties, despite the greater services that they receive.

The urban counties are always going to have more services than the outlying areas. First, they have a higher density of population, allowing transit to work better. Also they have a 30 year head-start. The problem is that w/o taking the 1% sales tax, you're basically going to have to transfer at every county line as they all try to do it themselves.

Personally, I think the answer would be to not expand heavy rail (marta), and to build a light rail system using existing rail lines that would attach to a true intermodal station. (Marta/Bus/L. Rail/Amtrak) hub, probably near the GWCC or somewhere. LIRR and the NJ Transit system feeding into Penn station in N.Y.C. would be good examples.

But this is getting way too specific. :p