NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I was cruising the interwebs before class, and I came to this:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The dramatic drop in violence in Iraq is due in large part to a secret program the U.S. military has used to kill terrorists, according to a new book by Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Bob Woodward.
Bob Woodward on Larry King Live

Bob Woodward's book, "The War Within: Secret White House History 2006-2008," came out Monday.

The program -- which Woodward compares to the World War II era Manhattan Project that developed the atomic bomb -- must remain secret for now or it would "get people killed," Woodward said Monday on CNN's Larry King Live.

"It is a wonderful example of American ingenuity solving a problem in war, as we often have," Woodward said.

In "The War Within: Secret White House History 2006-2008," Woodward disclosed the existence of secret operational capabilities developed by the military to locate, target and kill leaders of al Qaeda in Iraq and other insurgent leaders.

National security adviser Stephen Hadley, in a written statement reacting to Woodward's book, acknowledged the new strategy. Yet he disputed Woodward's conclusion that the "surge" of 30,000 U.S. troops into Iraq was not the primary reason for the decline in violent attacks.

"It was the surge that provided more resources and a security context to support newly developed techniques and operations," Hadley wrote.

Woodward, associate editor of the Washington Post, wrote that along with the surge and the new covert tactics, two other factors helped reduce the violence.Video Watch Bob Woodward explain the strategy »

One was the decision of militant cleric Muqtada al-Sadr to order a cease-fire by his Mehdi Army. The other was the "Anbar Awakening" movement that saw Sunni tribes aligning with U.S. troops to battle al Qaeda in Iraq.

Woodward told Larry King that while there is a debate over how much credit the new secret operations should get for the drop in violence, he concluded it "accounts for a good portion."

"I would somewhat compare it to the Manhattan Project in World War II," he said "It's a ski slope right down in a matter of months, cutting the violence in half. This isn't going to happen with the bunch of joint security stations or the surge."

The top secret operations, he said, will "some day in history ... be described to people's amazement."

While he would not reveal the details, Woodward said the terrorists who have been targeted were already aware of the capabilities.

"The enemy has a heads up because they've been getting wiped out and a lot of them have been killed," he said. "It's not news to them.

"If you were a member of al Qaeda or the resistance or some extremist militia, you would be wise to get your rear end out of town," Woodward said. "It is very dangerous."

Bob Woodward is about as respected a journalist can get in America. What secret project could he be referring to? Rumor has it that it's a combination of DistantStar, a comms tapping UAV developed from the canceled DarkStar, and some sort of electromagnetic weapon so powerful and precise it can disrupt the heartbeat of a target, causing cardiac arrest. Of course, its from the internet, so it must be true. What does NSG think?

I'm going to class now, I'll check back on this in a few hours.

and yet, we still don't have Osama in our custody, and he may still very well be alive.

Yea...great job guys.

"some day in history ... be described to people's amazement."


I doubt it.

If the United States really has invented a Flying Death Note, I doubt people are going to be all happy and amazed, more then likely, it's going to come back and hit them, hard.

The last thing we need is a new nuclear bomb.

So, I was cruising the interwebs before class, and I came to this:



Bob Woodward is about as respected a journalist can get in America. What secret project could he be referring to? Rumor has it that it's a combination of DistantStar, a comms tapping UAV developed from the canceled DarkStar, and some sort of electromagnetic weapon so powerful and precise it can disrupt the heartbeat of a target, causing cardiac arrest. Of course, its from the internet, so it must be true. What does NSG think?

I'm going to class now, I'll check back on this in a few hours.

A weapon like that could be used to assasinate with near-impunity, and could be turned on anyone, including oposision political leaders. Lovely. About the only nastier weapon would be if they had developed psychic assasins or smart nanorobots to spy on and kill people.

I like how their still insisting the surge was the main reason for improvement in Iraq. And of course that assersion would have nothing to do with ensuring a certain Senator's election to a certain white house.

So, I was cruising the interwebs before class, and I came to this:



Bob Woodward is about as respected a journalist can get in America. What secret project could he be referring to? Rumor has it that it's a combination of DistantStar, a comms tapping UAV developed from the canceled DarkStar, and some sort of electromagnetic weapon so powerful and precise it can disrupt the heartbeat of a target, causing cardiac arrest. Of course, its from the internet, so it must be true. What does NSG think?

I'm going to class now, I'll check back on this in a few hours.

... think you can provide a link to that which you quoted?

It's FOXDIE!:D

The Gay bomb?

Bob Woodward is about as respected a journalist can get in America.
Did you miss the Plame scandal or something? He's got no respect anymore. He's just attention-whoring in an attempt for people to listen to him. Also, I find his insistence that he can't give details because people could die hilarious. Especially since odds are that people died as a result of his involvement in the leaking of Plame's covert status.

Did you miss the Plame scandal or something? He's got no respect anymore. He's just attention-whoring in an attempt for people to listen to him. Also, I find his insistence that he can't give details because people could die hilarious. Especially since odds are that people died as a result of his involvement in the leaking of Plame's covert status.

Bob Woodward and John McCain have something in common. They used to actually mean something long before they were devoured by the Lovecraftian monstrosity known as Bushevism, then regurgitated as soulless, mindless husks that pandered to its needs.

People are still being blown up in Iraq. The war will drag on after the "Coalition of the Willing" has picked up its ball and gone home. But I've worked out who the "winner" of the war will be! China!
They've just secured a deal to drill for oil in Kurd country. You can imagine how much this annoys the US oil companies.
But hey! This wasn't a "War for Oil" was it?

Did you miss the Plame scandal or something? He's got no respect anymore. He's just attention-whoring in an attempt for people to listen to him. Also, I find his insistence that he can't give details because people could die hilarious. Especially since odds are that people died as a result of his involvement in the leaking of Plame's covert status.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, this technology he 'can't reveal because people will get killed'... IS being (at least) referred to in a book? Like.. the things people read?

It's such a secret that a bunch or terrorists allegedly know about it, this guy knows about it, and it's a major detail in his new book... AND we're not allowed to know it exists.

My math feels broken.

So, I was cruising the interwebs before class, and I came to this:



Bob Woodward is about as respected a journalist can get in America. What secret project could he be referring to? Rumor has it that it's a combination of DistantStar, a comms tapping UAV developed from the canceled DarkStar, and some sort of electromagnetic weapon so powerful and precise it can disrupt the heartbeat of a target, causing cardiac arrest. Of course, its from the internet, so it must be true. What does NSG think?

I'm going to class now, I'll check back on this in a few hours.

It's bullshit.

The reason violence dropped off is nothing to do with surging, and nothing to do with super spy weapons.

The Mehdi army stood down, and Sunnis stepped down visible violence. All the explanation needed.

People are still being blown up in Iraq. The war will drag on after the "Coalition of the Willing" has picked up its ball and gone home. But I've worked out who the "winner" of the war will be! China!
They've just secured a deal to drill for oil in Kurd country. You can imagine how much this annoys the US oil companies.
But hey! This wasn't a "War for Oil" was it?

Of course not! Anyone who says it is is a ebil liberal atheist m0slem terrorist!!!11!:wink:

If the bad guys are aware of this super secret super program that is wiping out their numbers, why haven't they gone public with it? Why do they help maintain the veil of secrecy for their enemy?

If the bad guys are aware of this super secret super program that is wiping out their numbers, why haven't they gone public with it? Why do they help maintain the veil of secrecy for their enemy?

Maybe the goal is to make sure they're all dead so that they can't go public with it.

People are still being blown up in Iraq. The war will drag on after the "Coalition of the Willing" has picked up its ball and gone home. But I've worked out who the "winner" of the war will be! China!
They've just secured a deal to drill for oil in Kurd country. You can imagine how much this annoys the US oil companies.
But hey! This wasn't a "War for Oil" was it?

I'm so tired of people acting like oil was the sole motivation for this war. Yes, it was a motive, but not the motive, not by a long stretch. I don't know about you personally, but when people say or imply that the reason for the war was just to get oil, it strikes me as just an attempt to sound smart and cynical without giving any complex thought to the question.

Please do not assume from this post that I buy the Bush government's explanation for the war. I don't. I just think dismissing the reasons behind the war as "oh it was just to steal Iraq's oil" is superficial and ignores the facts.

When they asked to borrow my scrotum-seeking attack weasels, I almost said 'no', but they appealed to my patriotism. *nod*

Maybe the goal is to make sure they're all dead so that they can't go public with it.

And letting some random dude write about this super secret technology... fits in where?

And letting some random dude write about this super secret technology... fits in where?

Maybe they'll kill Woodward.

Maybe they'll kill Woodward.

It would be a bit late, now... wouldn't it?

Maybe Woodward is a spook, and this is an elaborate cover for the real supersecret tech...

The thot plickens.

I feel like he is refering more to a strategy than a super-secret doom weapon of unimaginable power. Comparing it to the Manhatten project was just a way to increase dramatic tension...and make you buy the book.

That being said, I don't know why he can't reveal what it is if the people they are targeting already know about it.

the new H bomb only kills terrorist when it explodes

And letting some random dude write about this super secret technology... fits in where?

Maybe they're trying to get the terrorists to shit themselves?

Maybe they're trying to get the terrorists to shit themselves?

Maybe that's the weapon? The Bowel Evacuator 5000. Point and click, but stand well clear.

Maybe that's the weapon? The Bowel Evacuator 5000. Point and click, but stand well clear.

Such a weapon however can have disastrous consequences. http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103401 Fast forward to about one minute to see what I mean. :)

Maybe that's the weapon? The Bowel Evacuator 5000. Point and click, but stand well clear.

Shit, they found the brown note?

I doubt it.

If the United States really has invented a Flying Death Note, I doubt people are going to be all happy and amazed, more then likely, it's going to come back and hit them, hard.

The last thing we need is a new nuclear bomb.

Yup, nothing wrong with the ones we have now. Why re-invent the wheel, eh?

Did anyone else here think "Death Note" when they read this? I'll believe it when I see it. The fact remains that the US was wrong in invading and had no right to.

I doubt it.

If the United States really has invented a Flying Death Note, I doubt people are going to be all happy and amazed, more then likely, it's going to come back and hit them, hard.

The last thing we need is a new nuclear bomb.

Asked and answered, someone else DID think of Light Yagami.

Well, anything that gives America moe power is a good thing.

Well, anything that gives America moe power is a good thing.

No, it isn't. The power to kill people without retribution should not be in ANYBODY'S hands. I, at least, have enough sense to know that it wouldn't be good in my country's hands either. Do you have that much sense?

Well, anything that gives America moe power is a good thing.

It took me a while. Good show. You almost had me convinced.

No, it isn't. The power to kill people without retribution should not be in ANYBODY'S hands. I, at least, have enough sense to know that it wouldn't be good in my country's hands either. Do you have that much sense?

America needs weapons like that. If we had that after 9/11 we could have killed osama at Tora bora, along with a lot of his key followers.

It took me a while. Good show. You almost had me convinced.

You think I'm joking? I'm not.

You think I'm joking? I'm not.

Okay, that leaves the "trolling" and "insane" possibilities.

Okay, that leaves the "trolling" and "insane" possibilities.

Or I have no problems with giving my country effective weapons?

You think I'm joking? I'm not.

Deadpan mode. Excellent.

You probably really mean it when you say that Waterworld is one of the great movies, too.

I got it. *wink*

America needs weapons like that. If we had that after 9/11 we could have killed osama at Tora bora, along with a lot of his key followers.

Unfortunatly, we didn't have enough Terrorists to test teh weapon on. But after 9/11, the testing facility at Gitmo was overflowing with... er... Volunteers...

Deadpan mode. Excellent.

You probably really mean it when you say that Waterworld is one of the great movies, too.

I got it. *wink*

Whats wrong with Waterworld? Its very much underrated. It is a lot better than a lot of movies people have said in that thread.

Or I have no problems with giving my country effective weapons?

Oh, in that case you obviously have no problem either with Brazil getting the same weapon so YOUR leaders can also die of cardiac arrest too. Good to know.

I have to admit this COULD actually be very beneficial. Since you may have two situations: either the US are capable of totally pwning the shit out of terrorists, but causing massive collateral damage as a result and civilian death, or the US are capable of totally pwning terrorists, but very precisely and without any collateral damage. If it's possible for the latter to be the case, I would support such a weapon.

Oh, in that case you obviously have no problem either with Brazil getting the same weapon so YOUR leaders can also die of cardiac arrest too. Good to know.

If two countries have it, then you've got your self a deterent, which restores balance.

It's FOXDIE!:D

Woot!

sounds like bullshit, smells like bullshit...

I'm calling it bullshit.

I have to admit this COULD actually be very beneficial. Since you may have two situations: either the US are capable of totally pwning the shit out of terrorists, but causing massive collateral damage as a result and civilian death, or the US are capable of totally pwning terrorists, but very precisely and without any collateral damage. If it's possible for the latter to be the case, I would support such a weapon.

Well, given the fact that the US has yet to show capability to do even the first one (they do okay on racking up civvie body counts, but where is all this evidence of terrorist-shit-pwning?), it seems unlikely the secret, non-collateral option would be any more efficiently employed to the same ends.

It would pretty epic if it turned to be the brown note. Execpt, making them reverse shit them selves.

Well, given the fact that the US has yet to show capability to do even the first one (they do okay on racking up civvie body counts, but where is all this evidence of terrorist-shit-pwning?), it seems unlikely the secret, non-collateral option would be any more efficiently employed to the same ends.

Well, Al Qaeda are getting pretty pwned in Afghanistan, I have to say. Plus they COULD turn the whole place to glass if they reallly wanted to, if this new weapon ensures that this never needs to happen (i.e. no more need for nukes and very high yielding explosives) then that could be even more of a plus.

If two countries have it, then you've got your self a deterent, which restores balance.

That works... if there was only the US and Brazil in the world. But the situation of the world is not so. So in the case which was stated US and Brazil could:
A) Team up and "pwn the shit" out of everyone else.
B) Fight and ruin each other's economies
C) Store them (like nukes and small pox)

See, only reason there's balance with nukes is that enough people have them that people realize "Hey, if we bomb the US, them and all their allies are gonna bomb the shit out of us, and then we'll bomb back, and eventually the majority of the world population will die."

Woot!

*didn't play MGS4, just watched his bro play it* A game tends to lose its playability after you know the entire plot...

But where is all this evidence of terrorist-shit-pwning?

Sigged ;P

Well, Al Qaeda are getting pretty pwned in Afghanistan, I have to say. Plus they COULD turn the whole place to glass if they reallly wanted to, if this new weapon ensures that this never needs to happen (i.e. no more need for nukes and very high yielding explosives) then that could be even more of a plus.

Propaganda.

Al Qaeda are getting pretty pwned in Afghanistan? Based on... what? Their official registration? Al Qaeda census documents? Their Al-Membership-Qarda?

How many terrorists were there? What's our percentage completion? How are we measuring and verifying our success?

The thing about asymmetrical war is - you really don't know how you're doing. If over-all, high profile terror activity increases (as it arguably has done), doesn't that suggest that 'terror' is getting something less than pwned?

Even if it decreases... does that mean we're 'winning'? Or even killing the right people? Or - is it verfiably indicative of nothing, except that it has decreased, for now?

Propaganda.

Al Qaeda are getting pretty pwned in Afghanistan? Based on... what? Their official registration? Al Qaeda census documents? Their Al-Membership-Qarda?

How many terrorists were there? What's our percentage completion? How are we measuring and verifying our success?

The thing about asymmetrical war is - you really don't know how you're doing. If over-all, high profile terror activity increases (as it arguably has done), doesn't that suggest that 'terror' is getting something less than pwned?


Certainly it's increasing, but not in the same way. Terrorist activity is massively increasing as a reactionary process to the Iraq war, especially in more developed countries. However, although not dying out, the more traditional terrorist groups are suffering heavily. But anyway, that's another thread. My MAIN point is this: anything that can reduce collateral damage is a good thing right?

Certainly it's increasing, but not in the same way. Terrorist activity is massively increasing as a reactionary process to the Iraq war, especially in more developed countries. However, although not dying out, the more traditional terrorist groups are suffering heavily. But anyway, that's another thread. My MAIN point is this: anything that can reduce collateral damage is a good thing right?

No.

Or rather - only if the collateral damage is actually collateral TO something.

A supershinyspecialmagic weapon or technology that creams people at a distance is wonderful... depending on who exactly is getting creamed.

Arguing that we could apply it successfully to the - ahem - 'war on terror' is actually something of a red herring. Such a wepon would be excellent at pinpoint destruction of recognised targets... and those aren't the typical terrorists.

Which makes the question more about who is getting pinpoint-puréed. I care a lot less about the collateral damage, if the government is using it to quietly liquidate dissenters here.

Arguing that we could apply it successfully to the - ahem - 'war on terror' is actually something of a red herring. Such a wepon would be excellent at pinpoint destruction of recognised targets... and those aren't the typical terrorists.


What do you mean? Can you describe a 'recognised target'?


Which makes the question more about who is getting pinpoint-puréed. I care a lot less about the collateral damage, if the government is using it to quietly liquidate dissenters here.

Don't worry, as long as the dissenters wear properly made head protection, made of tin-foil, they would be impervious to the government's attempts at trying to silence them.

America needs weapons like that. If we had that after 9/11 we could have killed osama at Tora bora, along with a lot of his key followers.

I wait with bated breath when the next wannabe Fascist/Theocrat/neo-conservative, starts using such weapons against Americans, like a certain warrantless arrest and indefinite detainment, because they oppose him.

What do you mean? Can you describe a 'recognised target'?


Exactly. Right?

Exactly. Right?

Well I doubt the the Americans are going to start erasing some brownies one by one from existence in the hope that some of them turn out to be terrorists.

Well I doubt the the Americans are going to start erasing some brownies one by one from existence in the hope that some of them turn out to be terrorists.

Why? That's what we've been doing, more or less, for most of the last decade.

Why? That's what we've been doing, more or less, for most of the last decade.

Really? I mean lets be serious now, no sarcasm or irony or satire, do you really think that is the case? That soldiers are just walking down the streets, firing at any civilian they see?

Really? I mean lets be serious now, no sarcasm or irony or satire, do you really think that is the case? That soldiers are just walking down the streets, firing at any civilian they see?

At least a few of them have been, with more than a few Americans, soldiers and not, cheering them on. It's not like America is entirely bereft of bloodlusting killers and their supporters who can only derive pleasure from slaughter of people they have power over.

http://website.lineone.net/~emccusker/Review_Images/MouseThatRoared/Mouse6.jpg

Really? I mean lets be serious now, no sarcasm or irony or satire, do you really think that is the case? That soldiers are just walking down the streets, firing at any civilian they see?

No. But that's not really what you said, either.

Do I think they've been taking random potshots? Some of them, sure. Do I think it's policy? I doubt it.

On the other hand - do I believe that all those people that are getting killed are 'terrorists'? No, not even vaguely.

How would they know? Check faces against the yearbook from "Terror High?"

So, I was cruising the interwebs before class, and I came to this:



Bob Woodward is about as respected a journalist can get in America. What secret project could he be referring to? Rumor has it that it's a combination of DistantStar, a comms tapping UAV developed from the canceled DarkStar, and some sort of electromagnetic weapon so powerful and precise it can disrupt the heartbeat of a target, causing cardiac arrest. Of course, its from the internet, so it must be true. What does NSG think?

I'm going to class now, I'll check back on this in a few hours.

ok. im going to go on record with my guess that mr woodward is talking about the same programs that jon ronson wrote about in his book "the men who stare at goats" http://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Stare-Goats/dp/0743270606/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221009226&sr=8-2


namely that the bush administration is working on training men to kill the enemy by psychic attack.

namely that the bush administration is working on training men to kill the enemy by psychic attack.

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/928/tetsuo05tbyw3.jpg?

ok. im going to go on record with my guess that mr woodward is talking about the same programs that jon ronson wrote about in his book "the men who stare at goats" http://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Stare-Goats/dp/0743270606/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221009226&sr=8-2
Great book, although I certainly found the bit about the scientist who was killed when on LSD more interesting than most of the book.

They made a TV version of it too, that was excellent.

*edits*

As to the main point of the OP - I reckon this is more Black Spot than real weapon.

It would pretty epic if it turned to be the brown note. Execpt, making them reverse shit them selves.
You mean, they hear it and then compulsively suck things in through their assholes? That'd probably result in a lot of rather embarrassing and extraordinarily painful depantsing.

You mean, they hear it and then compulsively suck things in through their assholes? That'd probably result in a lot of rather embarrassing and extraordinarily painful depantsing.

I was thinking something ore along the lines of making them crap with their dicks.

The Gay bomb?

http://www.bibi.org/box/2005/junho/Are_your_base.jpg

Great book, although I certainly found the bit about the scientist who was killed when on LSD more interesting than most of the book.

They made a TV version of it too, that was excellent.

*edits*

As to the main point of the OP - I reckon this is more Black Spot than real weapon.
i found the lsd part the most informative. its something i knew the fringes of for a long time but never had the whole story.

but, since ive decided that they have developed psychic killers, im wondering if the general who kept trying to walk through walls in the first chapter has now perfected the technique

I FOUND THE GOVERNMENTS SECRET WEAPON!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa089e1snjQ&feature=related


Thats what finds and kills terrorists!

You mean, they hear it and then compulsively suck things in through their assholes? That'd probably result in a lot of rather embarrassing and extraordinarily painful depantsing.

Or worse if there are small unattended objects and/or children nearby. *nod*

I FOUND THE GOVERNMENTS SECRET WEAPON!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa089e1snjQ&feature=related


Thats what finds and kills terrorists!

No, California still needs a governor.

:tongue:

This is ridiculous. Even if it's a Flying Death Note, to quote an earlier poster, it's certainly not on the level of a nuclear explosive.

More along the lines of the AK-47, really. Still potentially very useful(yay new assassination weapon!) but not that noteworthy, assuming it even exists.

Though I have to admit it chills me. While one side of me looks at new weaponry and finds it interesting from the science aspect, the other side of me looks at what it does--kills people--and finds it absolutely appalling.

If this kind of program exists, it's not going to be any sort of fancy superweapon. It'd probably just a variant of ECHELON or similar to gather intel followed up by a sniper team. One shot, one kill.

At least a few of them have been, with more than a few Americans, soldiers and not, cheering them on. It's not like America is entirely bereft of bloodlusting killers and their supporters who can only derive pleasure from slaughter of people they have power over.

For this to have any relevance, you would have to show examples where the people involved have NOT been court marshalled and kicked out of the army. And even if you can show this, you will still have to show that these people are not in anything but the extreme minority. Even further STILL, you will have to show how they could have any influence over this secret weapon, some angsty obnoxious marine isn't likely to have the authority to operate such a weapon, and it's likely to be a heavily regulated operation.