NationStates Jolt Archive

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

Abstracting entirely from the legal benefits of marriage…socialization is a powerful thing.

Abstracting entirely from the legal benefits of marriage…socialization is a powerful thing.

I'm not even worried about the legal benefits of it. I am just wanting to know if I should honestly be having these desires to be married. I can socialize with others in many various ways, so that isn't the deal either. I am trying to figure out what is so special about the institution of marriage, that would make so many want to engage in it, outside of social and legal reasons that some may have.

I have no desire to be married or to be in a serious relationship. I figure if I ever meet a woman that I really truly want to spend the rest of my life with, then I'll do it.

Until then it's women, motorcycles, and doing whatever the hell I want.

I'm not even worried about the legal benefits of it. I am just wanting to know if I should honestly be having these desires to be married. I can socialize with others in many various ways, so that isn't the deal either. I am trying to figure out what is so special about the institution of marriage, that would make so many want to engage in it, outside of social and legal reasons that some may have.

I don't mean socialization in that sense. I mean that we place values on marriage because we live in a society that does so. We're socialized to think it has value.

I don't mean socialization in that sense. I mean that we place values on marriage because we live in a society that does so. We're socialized to think it has value.

Oh, gotcha. :)

I'm not even worried about the legal benefits of it. I am just wanting to know if I should honestly be having these desires to be married. I can socialize with others in many various ways, so that isn't the deal either. I am trying to figure out what is so special about the institution of marriage, that would make so many want to engage in it, outside of social and legal reasons that some may have.

Even outside of any official institution, I think people would still "get married", albeit perhaps with less ceremony. Many people like the idea of finding someone else to build a life with.

I don't know what it is with my generation. Most of my friends are already engaged or married (I'm 21, btw), but I just don't feel like it's that big a deal yet. I almost got engaged, but backed out because I realized it would be a very stupid decision for the time and place I was at in life.

It's either not feeling like it's a big deal or feeling like I failed at life. I prefer the former.

I never had any desire to be married. I married once to get someone into the country...this was an easy decision to make because marriage itself doesn't hold some sort of intrinsic value for me. I was in a commonlaw relationship for nearly 11 years...didn't bother getting married because really...what would that have added to things? Also, I realised about five years ago that actually getting married would just make it harder to separate when that finally happened.

Right now...well, I'd like to get married because for the first time, I've met someone who just rocks that hard. It's not the act of marriage or the institution that interests me, and I intend to celebrate my love for this person every waking moment anyway. I think I want to do it simply because it's a joyous celebration that I want others to be a part of, and because I enjoy parties, and this would be a party like none other.

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

It's entirly up to the individual I would say. I have been maried for 18 years now, whilst my younger brother has been with his girlfriend for 20 years with not a sign of getting married. As the old saying goes 'Horses for courses' innit!

I never had any desire to be married. I married once to get someone into the country...this was an easy decision to make because marriage itself doesn't hold some sort of intrinsic value for me. I was in a commonlaw relationship for nearly 11 years...didn't bother getting married because really...what would that have added to things? Also, I realised about five years ago that actually getting married would just make it harder to separate when that finally happened.

Right now...well, I'd like to get married because for the first time, I've met someone who just rocks that hard. It's not the act of marriage or the institution that interests me, and I intend to celebrate my love for this person every waking moment anyway. I think I want to do it simply because it's a joyous celebration that I want others to be a part of, and because I enjoy parties, and this would be a party like none other.

There does seem to be a lot of truth in the later part of this.

The act of getting maried is, I feel more of a benifit for your friends and family. I know when my relations or friends get married, it is great to recive an invite. It makes me happy to share their happiness.

Marriage and funerals. Essentially for the benefit of others :D

I personally am in a relationship lasting for 4 years for now (with temp. breaks), but with no intent to get married [at least apart from tax reasons]. Actually, the two things I treasure most about our relationship are 1) that none of us loves each other, and 2) that we both dislike the institution of marriage.

I personally am in a relationship lasting for 4 years for now (with temp. breaks), but with no intent to get married [at least apart from tax reasons]. Actually, the two things I treasure most about our relationship are 1) that none of us loves each other, and 2) that we both dislike the institution of marriage.

1) Are there more than two people in this relationship?
2) Did you just state that you don't love the person/people in your relationship and he/her/they don't love you?

There does seem to be a lot of truth in the later part of this.

The act of getting maried is, I feel more of a benifit for your friends and family. I know when my relations or friends get married, it is great to recive an invite. It makes me happy to share their happiness.
I think I agree with this idea. Marriage is more about demonstrating to the people you know (and the people who pay you money / you pay taxes to) that you're settled down than it is about the actual act of settling down.

The question is, why settle down? Life is more exciting when you're free to adventure, and although adventuring with other people is great, I don't want to have to exclude other people from my adventures just because we're supposed to have Sidekicks.

I'd be happy to be in a Long Term Relationship and to have my girlfriend living with me. I don't need marriage because A. I already had pre-martial sex B. I don't want children and C. Beside the tax breaks married people get, I don't see any real reason (outside of her having my last name) to get married.

I think I agree with this idea. Marriage is more about demonstrating to the people you know (and the people who pay you money / you pay taxes to) that you're settled down than it is about the actual act of settling down. The question is, why settle down? Life is more exciting when you're free to adventure, and although adventuring with other people is great, I don't want to have to exclude other people from my adventures just because we're supposed to have Sidekicks.

I think the question you asked can only be answered by the individual. Personaly getting married was the best thing that I have done, it brought a sense of order to my life.

1) Are there more than two people in this relationship?
Well, in any sexual sense, just two. We have a close friend in common, but he's in another country now.

2) Did you just state that you don't love the person/people in your relationship and he/her/they don't love you?
Yes. That's what is so great about it.

Love is passion, it comes and goes, it can turn into bitter hate or die off, it's irrational, demanding, rising and falling. On the other hand, what we have is just knowing we're the best match for each other we're gonna get; we have a reason to be together with passion or without.

C. Beside the tax breaks married people get, I don't see any real reason (outside of her having my last name) to get married.

why would this even BE a reason?

The question is, why settle down? Life is more exciting when you're free to adventure, and although adventuring with other people is great, I don't want to have to exclude other people from my adventures just because we're supposed to have Sidekicks.

Marriage doesn't have to mean settling down or eschewing adventures with others.

There's no way I'd sign on for that.

I don't see any real reason (outside of her having my last name) to get married.

Antiquated and pointless, IMO, unless you have a really horrible last name and changing it would give you some measure of relief.

why would this even BE a reason?

True, Touche.

I do have a legal question though. One of the reason homosexuals want marriage rights is that they want to have the ability to decide what happen to their spouse if they're in a hospital and non-responsive. I think...I'm not too clear on this so excuse my ignorance.

Now if I have a long term girlfriend, and something happens to me, would I run into the same problem since me and her aren't married and common law marriage do not exist in my state?

Personaly getting married was the best thing that I have done, it brought a sense of order to my life.
I think that's probably a pretty common reason. I just think what I need is more chaos. After all, chaos is incorruptible.

Now if I have a long term girlfriend, and something happens to me, would I run into the same problem since me and her aren't married and common law marriage do not exist in my state?
She isn't family, or your spouse, therefore she's essentially unimportant when it comes to decision making in the case of a severe illness on your part, or in terms of any testimentary desires you may have but never actually laid out in some legal form.

She isn't family, or your spouse, therefore she's essentially unimportant when it comes to decision making in the case of a severe illness on your part, or in terms of any testimentary desires you may have but never actually laid out in some legal form.

What if I gave her my power of attorney in my living will?

What if I gave her my power of attorney in my living will?

If you give her powers via a legal instrument, then she will have exactly the powers laid out therein.

Until you actually do that, she's essentially as important as a stranger on the side of the road in the eyes of the law.

If you give her powers via a legal instrument, then she will have exactly the powers laid out therein.

Until you actually do that, she's essentially as important as a stranger on the side of the road in the eyes of the law.

Hmm...you just gave me a real reason to get married outside of social expectation.

Hmm...you just gave me a real reason to get married outside of social expectation.

Marriage is like a package deal of getting rights to the other person's life. Rights to children, estate, in case of coma, property rights, all in one simple form.

Marriage is like a package deal of getting rights to the other person's life. Rights to children, estate, in case of coma, property rights, all in one simple form.

Hmm....so that's how they get you....

Sneaky bastards....

And keep in mind. Marriage has never been about protecting romance.

marriage as a goal unto itself is worthless.

getting married to someone you love and want to build a life and a family with is very worth while.

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

I don't think you want to get married. I think you just want a serious relationship. Marriage may well become part of that, but is not the base of it.

True, Touche.

I do have a legal question though. One of the reason homosexuals want marriage rights is that they want to have the ability to decide what happen to their spouse if they're in a hospital and non-responsive. I think...I'm not too clear on this so excuse my ignorance.

Now if I have a long term girlfriend, and something happens to me, would I run into the same problem since me and her aren't married and common law marriage do not exist in my state?

yes. The law divides things into pretty clear catagories. Family, and not family. your live in long term girlfriend is not family. She has no legal connection to you what so ever.

What if I gave her my power of attorney in my living will?

you could do that, yes, but on the other hand, marriage comes with a set of "default" legal rights that would be difficult to fully create via various legal instruments (power of attorney, a will etc) and some can not be done at all

you could do that, yes, but on the other hand, marriage comes with a set of "default" legal rights that would be difficult to fully create via various legal instruments (power of attorney, a will etc) and some can not be done at all
yes but if there are several of those that he DOESNT want, he cant take them out of the marriage package without paperwork so if all he wants is the limited power of attorney thing, it might be best to just do the one thing.

Now if I have a long term girlfriend, and something happens to me, would I run into the same problem since me and her aren't married and common law marriage do not exist in my state?
Correct. Depending on the hospital, she might not even be allowed to see you, or to be informed of anything that's happened to you. A lot would depend also on whether your legal family likes or loathes her.

yes but if there are several of those that he DOESNT want, he cant take them out of the marriage package without paperwork so if all he wants is the limited power of attorney thing, it might be best to just do the one thing.

Yea, I just want my girlfriend (when I get one) to be able to have her say in my care if something happens to me and I end up on the bed in a hospital.

Correct. Depending on the hospital, she might not even be allowed to see you, or to be informed of anything that's happened to you. A lot would depend also on whether your legal family likes or loathes her.

Hmm...anything I can do to get the hospital to let her come see me and be kept informed of my condition without the hassle of marriage?

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.
you have to be careful about "wife hunting"--wanting to be married more than wanting to be married to a specific person that you already know and love.

you set yourself up for failure if you make the goal "getting married" instead of "finding a wonderful woman to spend my life with"

try to put the marriage thing out of your mind and off the table and instead start dating with the aim of a serious relationship. if you find that and then want to take it to marriage, fine. otherwise marriage isnt a worthy goal by itself.

Correct. Depending on the hospital, she might not even be allowed to see you, or to be informed of anything that's happened to you. A lot would depend also on whether your legal family likes or loathes her.
oh lord these days with new patient privacy rules you would NOT be told anything about her and her condition unless she had specifically authorized you to receive that information.

Hmm...anything I can do to get the hospital to let her come see me and be kept informed of my condition without the hassle of marriage?

I don't think someone with power of attorney falls into the automatic classes of people who need be granted visitation. Most hospitals would probably honor that, but they need not necessarily let someone visit who isn't family.

For example, see here (http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/jun/25/woman-sues-miami-hospital-after-being-denied-visit/).

As others have pointed out there are several big practical benefits to getting married. There are also other benefits, like just the practical benefit of having someone to share the daily load of chores, errands and other things that eat our time. Doing it all on your own can get pretty tiring at times.

That said, however, gettting married just to get those practical benefits would be an unbelievably bad idea for two reasons: (1) Those very legal benefits give a person such intimate and strong legal rights to your life that you had better be sure you want THIS person to have those rights; and (2) cohabiting with someone you don't love can be a big, life-draining pain in the ass. I often think some parts of my life could have been much easier if I had married some decent guy, but I've never met a decent guy who I felt right about signing on as legal life partner. So, despite the inconveniences, I do not regret never getting married.

Love should come first, and marriage follow if it is needed and makes sense in the circumstances.

Love should come first, and marriage follow if it is needed and makes sense in the circumstances.

Indeed. First comes love, then comes marriage, and we ALLLL know what comes next.

Indeed. First comes love, then comes marriage, and we ALLLL know what comes next.

Weekend visits to the swinger's club and bondage workshops on Tuesdays?

I don't think someone with power of attorney falls into the automatic classes of people who need be granted visitation. Most hospitals would probably honor that, but they need not necessarily let someone visit who isn't family.

For example, see here (http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/jun/25/woman-sues-miami-hospital-after-being-denied-visit/).
Well, making one's SO one's legal health care proxy might do it. As the person who is obligated to make long term care and life support decisions in the case of the patient's incapacitation, I think -- though I am not sure -- hospitals have to give them access to the patient, to be able to discuss decisions. I may be wrong, though.

Note: Health Care Proxy and Power of Attorney are two different things. In my opinion, even married couples should get both, reciprocally. And they should make Living Wills as well as Last Wills, too. That's just my opinion, having worked occasionally for attorneys who did estate management work.

Indeed. First comes love, then comes marriage, and we ALLLL know what comes next.

We live happily ever after without the annoyance of children?

Weekend visits to the swinger's club and bondage workshops on Tuesdays?

Tuesdays are no good for me baby, how about wednesday?

As others have pointed out there are several big practical benefits to getting married. Lower tax bracket, primarily.
BTW, that's blatant discrimination for gays and threesomes, who most times can't use this benefit.


There are also other benefits, like just the practical benefit of having someone to share the daily load of chores, errands and other things that eat our time. Doing it all on your own can get pretty tiring at times.
Well, it doesn't take marriage, technically. All it takes is living in one house.


(2) cohabiting with someone you don't love can be a big, life-draining pain in the ass.
That should rather be "someone you don't love and don't like". Either is enough, only when you also dislike that person, it sucks.

Weekend visits to the swinger's club and bondage workshops on Tuesdays?
You have to take workshop classes on it now? Geez, that's too complicated. :tongue:

You have to take workshop classes on it now? Geez, that's too complicated. :tongue:

If you're into it as a kind of art form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_bondage)...yeah :)

You have to take workshop classes on it now? Geez, that's too complicated. :tongue:

there's some REALLY complicated rope bondage out there. Personally I find it kind of wasteful. "Gee, well I spent 3 hours tying you up...now I'm too tired to do stuff to you"

Lower tax bracket, primarily.
BTW, that's blatant discrimination for gays and threesomes, who most times can't use this benefit.



Well, it doesn't take marriage, technically. All it takes is living in one house.



That should rather be "someone you don't love and don't like". Either is enough, only when you also dislike that person, it sucks.
This is just revealing of me, but I can't imagine just "liking" anyone enough to put up with sharing a bathroom or refrigerator with them. I'd have to love them. And love in that special, hungry, desirous way that makes me actively want them around (at least some of the time), because I love my mom, but the idea of living with her again gives me hives.

there's some REALLY complicated rope bondage out there. Personally I find it kind of wasteful. "Gee, well I spent 3 hours tying you up...now I'm too tired to do stuff to you"

I've actually seen bondage that are tastefully done.

Marriage is like a package deal of getting rights to the other person's life. Rights to children, estate, in case of coma, property rights, all in one simple form.

Marriage is an extraordinarily easy contract to enter into, and an extraordinarily difficult contract to leave. As far as the state is concerned, that's pretty much all it is - Contract Law.

Hmm...you just gave me a real reason to get married outside of social expectation.
Make yourself aware of ALL the implications before you sign up for it then. It's contract law combined with emotion. Really bad combination if you're not prepared for it.

MULTIQUOTE IS BACK!! *5-second forum convenience dance*

If you're into it as a kind of art form (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_bondage)...yeah :)
Please. Square knots are simple, elegant, and zen.

there's some REALLY complicated rope bondage out there. Personally I find it kind of wasteful. "Gee, well I spent 3 hours tying you up...now I'm too tired to do stuff to you"
Yeah, seriously. It must be the eroticism of getting bored. Or something. I guess.

I've actually seen bondage that are tastefully done.

oh sure, I've seen some very complex bondage. Hell, I've DONE some very complex bondage. Just that, for some, they enjoy the aesthetic, whereas for me, it's more a means to an end, not the end itself...

oh sure, I've seen some very complex bondage. Hell, I've DONE some very complex bondage. Just that, for some, they enjoy the aesthetic, whereas for me, it's more a means to an end, not the end itself...

Tying your clients up in legal red tape does not count as bondage.....or does it...

Now we're seeing why Neo is a lawyer, he likes the red tape bondage *nods*

I think that marriage is great. It is a huge decision though and needs to be treated as such. When you marry someone that is your spouse. Marriage means different things to different couples and this is as it should be. When you marry the right person you two should both know what you are getting into or more to the point, whom you are marrying. Marriages need to be based on pure honesty.

For example, if you are the kind of guy that likes to sleep with other women, your wife should know this. If she is not willing to accept that and love you regardless of your sometimes wild way she is not the right woman for you to marry. This is the level of honesty that is required for a marriage to work.

My own personal bias is in favor of a marriage that is based on faith. However, I am sure that there are lots of married atheists that disagree. The main point is honesty and sincere commitment.

This is just revealing of me, but I can't imagine just "liking" anyone enough to put up with sharing a bathroom or refrigerator with them.
Had it that way with NROTC and following service for over a year. Except I didn't even particularly like the people I had to share it with.

Can't say sharing these things was among what bothered me.

Now we're seeing why Neo is a lawyer, he likes the red tape bondage *nods*

Nah, most girls still have hair on their arms to some extent, and tape hurts like a bitch getting off, and when you're at the point of removal, you don't want it to hurt.

Nah, most girls still have hair on their arms to some extent, and tape hurts like a bitch getting off, and when you're at the point of removal, you don't want it to hurt.

Unless she's a masochist, then get ready for round two.

Unless she's a masochist, then get ready for round two.

no, especially if she's a masochist. Even masochists have limits, and if you've reached the point of UNTYING her, she's probably hit it.

no, especially if she's a masochist. Even masochists have limits, and if you've reached the point of UNTYING her, she's probably hit it.

Weird. Spanking, clothing pins, and in some cases cigarette burns, but pull some tape off of her, that where she draws the line.

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

Not married yet, but I should think a marriage is very much like any kind of relationship : it is what you make it.

Getting married just because everyone else does it is bollocks. Get married casue you want to, not cause everybody does it.
And most importantly, make sure you marry someone you can actually see yourself with in years to come.

Hmm, has anyone ever had a really bad relationship/marriage that makes you reconsider marriage altogether?

Did you reconsider marriage because of the relationship/marriage all together, or was it just that you were with that one person, and it was crap for you, so you decided to not put yourself in that position again?

Weird. Spanking, clothing pins, and in some cases cigarette burns, but pull some tape off of her, that where she draws the line.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that a person can only take so much within a certain period of time. Generally, when it's time to stop, it's because you've hit that point where literally, anything more would be too much. At that point, having something else painful done to you would be potentially very damaging and incredibly irresponsible of a Dom/me to do.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that a person can only take so much within a certain period of time. Generally, when it's time to stop, it's because you've hit that point where literally, anything more would be too much. At that point, having something else painful done to you would be potentially very damaging and incredibly irresponsible of a Dom/me to do.

Ahh, fair enough and I agree.

True, Touche.

I do have a legal question though. One of the reason homosexuals want marriage rights is that they want to have the ability to decide what happen to their spouse if they're in a hospital and non-responsive. I think...I'm not too clear on this so excuse my ignorance.

Now if I have a long term girlfriend, and something happens to me, would I run into the same problem since me and her aren't married and common law marriage do not exist in my state?

This is hogwash. This is why there are medical powers of attorney and living wills. People should get off of their lazy asses and make an appointment with a lawyer.

This is hogwash. This is why there are medical powers of attorney and living wills. People should get off of their lazy asses and make an appointment with a lawyer.

I see you haven't been keeping up. But I'm sure a lawyer like you would know that certain things can not be granted via written instruments.

I see you haven't been keeping up. But I'm sure a lawyer like you would know that certain things can not be granted via written instruments.

The only thing that comes to mind is owning property as tenants by the entireties here in Pennsylvania.

Hmm, has anyone ever had a really bad relationship/marriage that makes you reconsider marriage altogether?

Did you reconsider marriage because of the relationship/marriage all together, or was it just that you were with that one person, and it was crap for you, so you decided to not put yourself in that position again?

I've had a bad relationship all right, but marriage wasn't an option back then.
It only became a possibility for me when I met my current BF. And even then it didn't really occur to me right away, it was more him suggesting it and me realising that I wouldn't mind and would actually be happy about it.

The only thing that comes to mind is owning property as tenants by the entireties here in Pennsylvania.

then you're not thinking nearly hard enough. Hospital visitation is one, adopted child custody another, several more spring to mind.

especially since, unless Pennsylvania is different, many of the elements of a tenancy by the entirety can be mirrored through the creation of a joint tenancy with right of survivorship.

This is hogwash. This is why there are medical powers of attorney and living wills. People should get off of their lazy asses and make an appointment with a lawyer.

Costs a shitload of money and can be contested by disgruntled family members.

Marriage is pretty straight-out, covers everything, and costs a whole lot less.

I'm not religious, so the "God now sanctions you to have intercourse" element isn't important to me. But in all honesty, if I ever end up in a relationship with anyone, I'll enthusiastically head down the road of marriage just because it would make it much more difficult and costly for my partner to leave me when they come to their senses.

then you're not thinking nearly hard enough. Hospital visitation is one, adopted child custody another, several more spring to mind.

People besides spouses can visit patients at hospitals. I never heard of someone adopting a child that was not already married. I never had a case where an unmarried couple sought to do it. I do not think I would take a case where an unmarried couple sought to adopt a child.

Costs a shitload of money and can be contested by disgruntled family members.

Marriage is pretty straight-out, covers everything, and costs a whole lot less.

I do not think that $140 is a shitload of money. I also am not so sure that spouses have this automatic power of attorney right at least not here.

I'm not religious, so the "God now sanctions you to have intercourse" element isn't important to me. But in all honesty, if I ever end up in a relationship with anyone, I'll enthusiastically head down the road of marriage just because it would make it much more difficult and costly for my partner to leave me when they come to their senses.

Your interpretation of a faith based marriage is certainly not the only way of looking at it. I view it as the understanding that God is there in the marriage and that he can give the couple strength and good judgment. Also, there is the commitment to holiness as expressed by caring for your spouse. There is also the commitment to live a certain way and try to bring up the children in a certain way.

People besides spouses can visit patients at hospitals.

Not in intensive care.

I never heard of someone adopting a child that was not already married. I never had a case where an unmarried couple sought to do it. I do not think I would take a case where an unmarried couple sought to adopt a child.

Erm... that is the point? Most countries have being married down as one of the major qualifications for being considered as adoptive parents. So why bother applying if you already know you'll be turned down cause you can't produce a marriage certificate?
All the more reason to allow homosexuals to marry, so they too can adopt if they wish to do so.

People besides spouses can visit patients at hospitals. I suggest you look at the link I already provided.

I never heard of someone adopting a child that was not already married.

Your ignorance does not mean it does not occur, to whit: Approximately 25 percent of the adoptions of children with special needs are by single men and women,1 and it is estimated that about 5 percent of all other adoptions are by single people. The outlook for single parent adoption is encouraging as it becomes more widely accepted.

Source (http://www.childbirthsolutions.com/articles/preconception/adoption/singleadopting.php)

I never had a case where an unmarried couple sought to do it.

That's because they can't. The law recognizes adoptions by married couples, and adoptions by single people, not adoptions by unmarried couples. You can’t jointly adopt a child, and have joint custody over that child, if you are not married.

If a couple wants to adopt a child together, they have to be married. Otherwise, by law, only one person actually adopts. That person becomes the child’s legal guardian, and the other person becomes absolutely nothing.

If I had a gay partner, and we decided, together, to adopt a child, by law one of us would be the parent, and the other would have no parental rights. If I adopt, I have sole custody and my partner has nothing. If I die, or we break up, he has no legal rights to vis-à-vis that child what so ever.

I do not think that $140 is a shitload of money. I also am not so sure that spouses have this automatic power of attorney right at least not here.

You only pay $ 140 for getting your will set up, giving power of attorney to your SO, specifying visitng rights, setting up a contract about joint ownership of whatever property you aquire henceforth, etc. etc.? With all the consultation and regular legal fees that go with it, appart from the lawyer's pay?
You've got really cheap lawyers, apparently.

And btw, marriage here will cost us 50 Euros altogether, legally. Although with the current rate of the dollar, that might be about the same amount.

Your interpretation of a faith based marriage is certainly not the only way of looking at it. I view it as the understanding that God is there in the marriage and that he can give the couple strength and good judgment. Also, there is the commitment to holiness as expressed by caring for your spouse. There is also the commitment to live a certain way and try to bring up the children in a certain way.

Ah, interesting. Forgive my ignorance:). I guess its not wholly surprising that an atheist like myself can't understand beyond a vary basic level the religious meaning of the ceremony to those who are religious.

Your interpretation of a faith based marriage is certainly not the only way of looking at it. I view it as the understanding that God is there in the marriage and that he can give the couple strength and good judgment. Also, there is the commitment to holiness as expressed by caring for your spouse. There is also the commitment to live a certain way and try to bring up the children in a certain way.

Call me silly, but I thought you guys think god is omnipresent anyway?
So he/she/it would of course be around in the marriage, no?

Ah, interesting. Forgive my ignorance:). I guess its not wholly surprising that an atheist like myself can't understand beyond a vary basic level the religious meaning of the ceremony to those who are religious.

No problem. There are also, I am sure, people out there who view a marriage as a divinely approved sex partner. That might be a component for many religious spouses but it is certainly not the entirety of the religious experience of marriage. There are lots of faiths whose clergy view it differently and lots of variety within the congregations. This is particularly true among us Jews whose rabbis often feel like they are completely cut off from their congregations on spiritual matters and that there is little agreement between anyone on anything.

Call me silly, but I thought you guys think god is omnipresent anyway?
So he/she/it would of course be around in the marriage, no?

Yes. But is God in the presence of the thoughts and prayers of the married couple? Perhaps in a subconscious manner for even the atheists but on a conscious level it is doubtful.

But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

I don't think so. The legal benefits are nice, I guess, but the cultural associations and trappings revolt me.

You only pay $ 140 for getting your will set up, giving power of attorney to your SO, specifying visitng rights, setting up a contract about joint ownership of whatever property you aquire henceforth, etc. etc.? With all the consultation and regular legal fees that go with it, appart from the lawyer's pay?
You've got really cheap lawyers, apparently.

And btw, marriage here will cost us 50 Euros altogether, legally. Although with the current rate of the dollar, that might be about the same amount.

I was referring to what I charge for a medical power of attorney and a living will.

I don't think so. The legal benefits are nice, I guess, but the cultural associations and trappings revolt me.

Wedding rings make you want to puke?

I was referring to what I charge for a medical power of attorney and a living will.

Marriage does have a couple more perks than just that, though.

Marriage does have a couple more perks than just that, though.

Hey we agree. I am married so obviously I am a fan of it.

Wedding rings make you want to puke?

In fairness, I'm find with wedding rings, but engagement rings do make me both sick and aggressive.
The thought behind them is revolting, the price paid for them is frankly beyond surreal, and the moral implications regarding the origins of most of the diamonds literally makes me want to throw up.

Hey we agree. I am married so obviously I am a fan of it.

Much better value for money, I'd say ;)

In fairness, I'm find with wedding rings, but engagement rings do make me both sick and aggressive.
The thought behind them is revolting, the price paid for them is frankly beyond surreal, and the moral implications regarding the origins of most of the diamonds literally makes me want to throw up.

You do not like the idea of blood diamonds? Or of AIDSy miners working in mine camps with lots of prostitutes and then going home to their wives for vacations from work? Oh come on, maybe you are just opposed to business in Africa. If diamonds were mined in Ohio we would not have these problems which are so "African". You should not hate the stone because of the goofy people that live and work where the stones are mined. It is just their way. Life is too short not to enjoy beautiful diamonds. However, although I like blood diamonds, I probably know what you feel because that is how I feel about CAFO eggs and why I only buy free range eggs.

In fairness, I'm find with wedding rings, but engagement rings do make me both sick and aggressive.
The thought behind them is revolting, the price paid for them is frankly beyond surreal, and the moral implications regarding the origins of most of the diamonds literally makes me want to throw up.

I don't wear mine, hubby doesn't wear his. If we were smart we wouldn't have paid so much for something so superficial. They aren't needed.

You should get meaningful tattoos. *nod*

Much better value for money, I'd say ;)

The main money aspect of all is the health benefits from wifey's employer. It has made me about $12,000 richer woohaaa!

I don't wear mine, hubby doesn't wear his. If we were smart we wouldn't have paid so much for something so superficial. They aren't needed.

You should get meaningful tattoos. *nod*

I suggested that, but he's got a bad needle-phobia. And pain-phobia.
In short, he's a bit of a wuss. ;)

You do not like the idea of blood diamonds? Or of AIDSy miners working in mine camps with lots of prostitutes and then going home to their wives for vacations from work? Oh come on, maybe you are just opposed to business in Africa. If diamonds were mined in Ohio we would not have these problems which are so "African". You should not hate the stone because of the goofy people that live and work where the stones are mined. It is just their way. Life is too short not to enjoy beautiful diamonds. However, although I like blood diamonds, I probably know what you feel because that is how I feel about CAFO eggs and why I only buy free range eggs.

Oh, I don't mind the diamonds themselves. They're pieces of sparkly carbon and can be quite pretty.
But paying the amount of money jewllers will demand for one while knowing fully well that there's a fair chance they were mined by enslaved individuals, ruining their health and possibly losing their lives in the process, with the proceeds used to finance arms trade and civil wars. Call me fussy, but I'm not exactly too comfortable about that.

And I am that fussy about animals as well. Free-range and organic all the way. ;)

Wedding rings make you want to puke?

My reaction isn't that strong.

Hey we agree. I am married so obviously I am a fan of it.So your position is basically, "I got mine, Jack, why do I care about you?"

So your position is basically, "I got mine, Jack, why do I care about you?"

I do not understand what you are getting at. I meant that since I am married obviously I am ok with the idea of marriage.

But you have no problem with me being forbidden it; after all, you've already got yours.

But you have no problem with me being forbidden it; after all, you've already got yours.

Wow, I have no idea how you interpreted that quote as saying you should be forbidden from marriage. Anyway, why are you forbidden from marriage?

Yes.

Marriage is forever.

Unless of course it isn't.

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

The biggest single value, is legal - because that applies, across the board.

Other than that - marriage is about a commitment. Do you sign a rentors contract because you fundamentally NEED to? No - in lots of situations, you could probably just get by living ina place until you don't any more... so why do people like those kind of contracts? The person who owns the apartment doesn't necessarily expect you to live in their apartment forever, but they want to know your intentions, and get some idea that you are committed... and the person doing the renting gets the same kind of assurance.

Marriage isn't promising you won't go dying on one another. It can't make any absolute guarantees. What it does do, is say "Hey, I'm invested in this relationship. Big time."

For some people (looking at you, Britney) it might not say all of that... :)

Should everyone get married? Hell no. If you're not the sort of person it's going to work for, don't.


On a very slightly related note... I recently watched that "Chuck and Larry" movie. That has to be one of the unfunniest movies I've ever seen... and I've seen Napoleon Dynamite. What was I talking about... oh... yeah... legal ramifications of marriage. They could make a lot of people a lot happier by opening up the 'relationship laws' in this country.

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

I personally think that the idea of a committed, long term relationship is both sexy and extremely pleasing. I love both falling asleep with someone, and waking up with someone, and the idea of someone who would want to fall asleep and wake up with me too makes me smile.

I mean, I'm sure there are other fun reasons for relationships, but I'm really sleepy right now...

*grabs Zilly and falls asleep with him*

I love both falling asleep with someone, and waking up with someone

That happened to me once or twice, it freaked me the fuck out

....

oh, you meant the SAME person.

Yes.

I want a dress, I want a cake, I want flowers, I want a captive audience, and I want a big party. I want a ring. I want to be able to say, in my father's famous line at a party with a coworker who'd had a little too much liquid courage: "Do you want to keep that hand? Then get it off my wife's (or husband's) leg."

I don't really care if it's official. It's the commitment and the celebration I want.

Yes.

I want a dress, I want a cake, I want flowers, I want a captive audience, and I want a big party. I want a ring. I want to be able to say, in my father's famous line at a party with a coworker who'd had a little too much liquid courage: "Do you want to keep that hand? Then get it off my wife's (or husband's) leg."

I don't really care if it's official. It's the commitment and the celebration I want.

Admit it, you just want a party where you’re the center of attention :p

Wow, I have no idea how you interpreted that quote as saying you should be forbidden from marriage. Anyway, why are you forbidden from marriage?
Not that I "should" be, necessary, I haven't seen you say that; but that it is no problem, gee, I just have to go to a lawyer and get a bunch of substitute contracts to cover this, that, and the other contingency that would be automatically covered if I could marry my beloved.

In Michigan, by the way, it is far from clear that any such contracts would be honored. Courts are forbidden to recognize anything "similar" to a marriage "for any purpose"; so a power of attorney might be invalidated if the court found that we were trying to do something "similar" to a marriage. Exactly how scary the (Republican, natch) state supreme court intends to get in interpreting this very broad language that the Christians put into our constitution remains to be seen, but so far we can count on them to be maximally hostile. This is why I intend to move out of Michigan as quickly as it can be arranged.

I suggested that, but he's got a bad needle-phobia. And pain-phobia.
In short, he's a bit of a wuss. ;)

Well, you should point out to him that while married only one of you is allowed to be a wuss at a time, so if he wants to do that 99% of the time, that's fine, but in the middle of the night......when something goes *crash* and it's probably not the cats.......it's his turn to be the un-wuss.

:p

My parents have been married 24 years, and my grandparents (the set that's alive anyways) have for almost 50 (if I'm not mistaken. They're over 80, so it was either 50 or 60 years that they're close to.) So I guess marriage has been instilled as something important in my mind.

Oh, I don't mind the diamonds themselves. They're pieces of sparkly carbon and can be quite pretty.
But paying the amount of money jewllers will demand for one while knowing fully well that there's a fair chance they were mined by enslaved individuals, ruining their health and possibly losing their lives in the process, with the proceeds used to finance arms trade and civil wars. Call me fussy, but I'm not exactly too comfortable about that.

And I am that fussy about animals as well. Free-range and organic all the way. ;)
If you like diamonds, you can easily -- well, not easily, but cheaply get your own at the Crater of Diamonds State Park near Murfreesboro, Arkansas.

http://www.craterofdiamondsstatepark.com/

It's one of the bigger diamond deposits in the world. The DeBeers group (you know, the diamond mafia) made the US government promise never to allow anyone to mine the site commercially in order to protect their control of the global market. So instead, it was turned into a park where anyone can go and dig for diamonds. No guarantees of finding anything, but if you do, it's yours to keep, cut, polish, set, sell, do anything you like with it -- 100% guilt-free and its costs pennies compared to a rock from a jeweler. Most finds are worth less than $50, but every now and then someone finds a good rock, worth hundreds, even thousands of dollars. Yes, your big sparkly ring is out there, waiting for you, in mother nature's pocket. :D

I'm a bit of a rock hound, personally, and would love to spend a weekend there -- if it wasn't in Arkansas. Every silver lining has a cloud, I guess.

I'm a bit of a rock hound, personally, and would love to spend a weekend there -- if it wasn't in Arkansas. Every silver lining has a cloud, I guess.

My wife is a bit of a rock collector... take a list of names, and we should do an NSG-meetup-and-dig-for-a-weekend in Arkasas... :D

My wife is a bit of a rock collector... take a list of names, and we should do an NSG-meetup-and-dig-for-a-weekend in Arkasas... :D
Oh, yeah, that's a magic weekend right there -- a bunch of NSGers up to their knees in dirt, with buckets and trowels, searching for diamonds while arguing viciously over stupid shit (shouting at each other from one trench to another), and all of it in frikkin Arkansas. :D

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

For most of my life I didn't want to get married or even date anyone... I have a girlfriend now, but I'm still not sure about the marriage part. My parents insist that I marry an ethnically Jewish woman... Trouble is, I'm a Jewish Christian and we're fairly hard to come by. My mother nearly fainted when she found out I'm dating a gentile so I'd probably get disowned if I end up marrying her... I suppose I'll make that decision when it becomes time.

Oh, yeah, that's a magic weekend right there -- a bunch of NSGers up to their knees in dirt, with buckets and trowels, searching for diamonds while arguing viciously over stupid shit (shouting at each other from one trench to another), and all of it in frikkin Arkansas. :D

Err... yeah. Actually.

Admit it, you just want a party where you’re the center of attention :p

I already admitted it! In a pretty dress. Not a sickeningly expensive one, just a pretty one. And some flowers. And some killer food.

I will not have all these years of watching TLC go to waste.

I already admitted it! In a pretty dress. Not a sickeningly expensive one, just a pretty one. And some flowers. And some killer food.

I will not have all these years of watching TLC go to waste.

but the important question is...what kind of food?

Oh, yeah, that's a magic weekend right there -- a bunch of NSGers up to their knees in dirt, with buckets and trowels, searching for diamonds while arguing viciously over stupid shit (shouting at each other from one trench to another), and all of it in frikkin Arkansas. :D

That sounds like fun. :(

Holy shit, what's with all the sex and relationship threads? We're not turning in to NationDates again, are we?

Also, I don't know if I'd want to get married; unfortunately, I'd stand to lose a lot if the relationship didn't end up working out and I don't know if that's something I'd want to risk. On the other hand, forcing my prospective spouse to commit to a pre-nup or something like that just feels like a massive breach of trust, as if I felt they were a gold-digger or something.

I think it's something that I'd want to think over for a while before I committed to it; that being said, I'm pretty sure I don't want kids although it's something I wouldn't even contemplate seriously until I was married for a long time.

Oh, yeah, that's a magic weekend right there -- a bunch of NSGers up to their knees in dirt, with buckets and trowels, searching for diamonds while arguing viciously over stupid shit (shouting at each other from one trench to another), and all of it in frikkin Arkansas. :D

That sounds like fun. :(

She's right...

Thing is... how long would we be able to dig without breaking out into a fight, here we have the wall of the internet to keep our debates to just that, debates, And we can back ourselves up with sources, can we do that out in the middle of Arkansas (which is really just the southern people's Kansas) while getting bitten by mosquitoes?

I already admitted it! In a pretty dress. Not a sickeningly expensive one, just a pretty one. And some flowers. And some killer food.

I will not have all these years of watching TLC go to waste.
a big wedding is such a waste of money.

Aye. Especially as a legally binding document.

That sounds like fun. :(
Well, now you know where to have your wedding. ;)

She's right...

Thing is... how long would we be able to dig without breaking out into a fight, here we have the wall of the internet to keep our debates to just that, debates, And we can back ourselves up with sources, can we do that out in the middle of Arkansas (which is really just the southern people's Kansas) while getting bitten by mosquitoes?
Well...I guess...if we could get someone to run back and forth to the library and/or nearest wifi hotspot with their laptop every time one of us yells for a citation... We'd need an intern. Come on, one of us must have an intern, surely.

I'm not exactly sure... I mean, to me, the biggest thing about marriage is that there seems to be some security in that they're much harder to leave than relationships so they're probably not as likely to end after a night of fighting.

But then some of those effects are also like cohabitation, except that if a cohabiting relationship ends and one party has done something like given up good job prospects to live with the other party, they aren't necessarily compensated for this while a divorce seems to include this sort of arrangement.

But then if I get married, I'll probably elope or get immediate families together for lunch and inform them that the wedding is in three hours and tell them how to get to the courthouse. And then maybe a big party (or two... depending where most friends are based).

Abstracting entirely from the legal benefits of marriage…socialization is a powerful thing.

This.


Pretty much....unless youre religious, there are no other reasons it would be a big deal.


Aside for the totally awesome party you could have. Its also nice to celebrate your love with tons of people.

I've had a poor experience with marriage, but I've seen some good ones. I think it comes down to the individual and his/her values, needs and wants. Also, I think you need to care about each other enough to work at the relationship, forgive and forget slights and wrongs, and laugh a lot - but you don't need marriage for that.

Well...I guess...if we could get someone to run back and forth to the library and/or nearest wifi hotspot with their laptop every time one of us yells for a citation... We'd need an intern. Come on, one of us must have an intern, surely.

I think Bottle has an intern, doesn't she?

a big wedding is such a waste of money.

Oh, I agree. I want mine to be small and simple. Outdoors, preferably, and just close friends and family. I don't want it to be showy, I just want pretty.

<-------Married for 21 years, first and only marriage - best damn thing that ever happened to me, have no doubt it will last until one of us dies.

When you find that person you are willing to work with and who is willing to work with you to ensure the relationship remains fun, healthy and stimulating - that person who will not bail on you when things are rough, but will stay by your side see it through to the other side - you'll know how great marriage, be it "common law" or solemnized by the government, truly is.

Marriage is a commitment though, not a "romantic" feeling. There will be times you are angry at your spouse and vice-versa, when you don't feel like you love them or feel attracted to them, etc. If you are committed to making it work though and they are too, you'll come out on the other side of that feeling and the relationship, trust and bond between you will be even stronger for having stuck it out together.

Is marriage worthwhile? Yah, very much so, if it is with the right person, for the right reasons and with the right level of commitment by both.

Marriage is good for one thing, it sparks fairly deep thought over whether one wants to remain with one's partner. Relationships can run along without much introspection, people remain together more out of convenience than a truly strong relationship.

The idea of marriage can bring out incompatibilities, doubts and fears, real questions can be asked and the answers may not be positive.

A lot of relationships break up during engagements, personally I believe that's a healthy thing.

Marriage is good for one thing, it sparks fairly deep thought over whether one wants to remain with one's partner. Relationships can run along without much introspection, people remain together more out of convenience than a truly strong relationship.

The idea of marriage can bring out incompatibilities, doubts and fears, real questions can be asked and the answers may not be positive.

A lot of relationships break up during engagements, personally I believe that's a healthy thing.

It can, true. But it can also go the exact opposite way... I've known a fair share of people who got married cause they wanted to be married. The relationship/partner was secondary, regarded much the same as the dress, the cake, the shape and colour of the invitations, etc.
In some people's minds marriage isn't a step that follows from the right kind of relationship, it's a goal in life. Which, honestly, is a bit scary to say the least.

I think that's probably a pretty common reason. I just think what I need is more chaos. After all, chaos is incorruptible.

Yeah horses for courses huh.

This is in the context of whether or not relationships, especially marriage, are a great thing to have. It seems like everyone I've grown up with, or am currently around are either getting married, or are at least involved in a very serious relationship that will lead to marriage in the near future. This makes me, for whatever reason, have the urge to be married myself. But lately, I have started to ask myself if marriage is really all its cracked up to be.

So I guess my stance on the issue would be a resounding "meh, I don't know yet". So please, enlighten me with your responses.

I think it's good to be married if you have kids together and are in a stable relationship. That's just a personal belief. I don't think you need to be married before you have kids, but it's just that..well, I've known a few people who are engaged and have kids but aren't married. I guess it comes down to time and money, but personally if I had kids with someone I loved, I would want to marry them!

As for marriage itself, I never used to really think about it. I'm currently engaged - which I never ever imagined I would be at this age (I'm 19, but engaged at 17) - but I see marriage far off in the future. When I do get married I want a beautiful wedding, and while I don't really want anything traditional or institutional, I would love a celebration where I don't have to worry about money, so I think getting married - for me - will have to wait until I have the money to create the beautiful wedding I want.

I don't know if this really answers your question. Afterall, in the end, it's just a piece of paper.

I think Bottle has an intern, doesn't she?
I'm jealous of her. I'd like to have an intern more than I'd like to have a husband.

I'm jealous of her. I'd like to have an intern more than I'd like to have a husband.

No interns here, but we have a gaggle of runners that get refressed every 6 months.

I'm jealous of her. I'd like to have an intern more than I'd like to have a husband.

Rumour has it, Bill Clinton said almost exactly the same thing...