NationStates Jolt Archive

I know it might sound strange, but you know, it just recently occurred to me that I've never seen a single episode of Star Trek. I've heard of it, I imagine it a bit, I even have opinions about it, but I have never actually seen it.
Well, almost - some 10 or so years ago I've seen a movie which had a Rubik Cube moving towards Earth and some saucer-with-handle ship in it, so it probably was some part of Star Trek. But that's it.

Now, I thought, just to check if it's what I think it is, why not try to actually look at Star Trek? I don't really plan to watch it, since I'm aware what it is from mentions on tvtropes.org and elsewhere, but I feel a bit uninformed when references to Star Trek - I have no idea who Kirk or Spork are. And I figure that out of its 1000 episodes (which well suggests it's not a show to be watched ep-by-ep), just by the laws of statistics, there have to be a few good ones.

As I get it, there's a lot of geeks on this board, and among them should be some who have watched enough of Star Trek to give some advice.
So, what episodes and feature movies do you consider standing out of the rest, and really must-see? I mean more along the lines of really better episodes rather than just favorites.
Also, if I was to try to learn a bit of what it's all about, what episodes do contain some pieces that are the earliest chronologically, including background?

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was pretty good.

Any of the The Next Generation episodes that track Data's quest to become more human are usually pretty good. I'm particularly fond of "Elementary My Dear Data".

Deep Space Nine, I'm not as familiar with, but I would highly recommend "Far Beyond the Stars". It is a really well done episode.

Did you want the whole of the Trek universe or just the original series?

That said, did you just want the best of Trek or something to give you a good, broad overview of the universe/series? The two are not the same, especially when it comes to DS9 where some of the better eps are stand alone, but the series as a whole has some rather long and interwoven story lines.

Rubik's cube ship would be Star Trek: Final Contact.

I know it might sound strange, but you know, it just recently occurred to me that I've never seen a single episode of Star Trek. I've heard of it, I imagine it a bit, I even have opinions about it, but I have never actually seen it.
Well, almost - some 10 or so years ago I've seen a movie which had a Rubik Cube moving towards Earth and some saucer-with-handle ship in it, so it probably was some part of Star Trek. But that's it.

Now, I thought, just to check if it's what I think it is, why not try to actually look at Star Trek? I don't really plan to watch it, since I'm aware what it is from mentions on tvtropes.org and elsewhere, but I feel a bit uninformed when references to Star Trek - I have no idea who Kirk or Spork are. And I figure that out of its 1000 episodes (which well suggests it's not a show to be watched ep-by-ep), just by the laws of statistics, there have to be a few good ones.

As I get it, there's a lot of geeks on this board, and among them should be some who have watched enough of Star Trek to give some advice.
So, what episodes and feature movies do you consider standing out of the rest, and really must-see? I mean more along the lines of really better episodes rather than just favorites.
Also, if I was to try to learn a bit of what it's all about, what episodes do contain some pieces that are the earliest chronologically, including background?

You've already seen probably the best movie, if you've seen "First Contact".

Now - before anyone leaps on that - it's not necessarily the best movie for a Star Trek movie... but it probably IS the best movie, considered as movies-in-general.

Most fans - I'd imagine - would probably choose "Wrath of Khan" as the best movie, in context.

Opinions differ on the quality of each series. The Original Series was a bit cheesey, a bit space-opera-y, and imbued with a kind of tongue-in-cheek bad-Shakespearean-play-ness. Mainly due to one person.

My personal favourite series - by a long way - is Deep Space Nine, which did away with the idea of running away from your problems all the time, and actuall focused on plots, characters... and the idea that most of the shit that happens, is that that happens continuously, over a long time, and just gets worse and worse till something gives. DS9 is the series for the most character-driven material, and the most likely development of plot-arcs.

Next Gen was good solid sci-fi, way ahead of almost anything on tv at the same time. It looks a little dated now, maybe - but if you watched it when it was new....

Don't bother with Voyager. It has like 4 good episodes stretched out over four million years, or something.

I haven't seen a single episode of "Enterprise", so I can't speak to that.

Rubik's cube ship would be Star Trek: Final Contact.

First Contact.

ahem.

Final Frontier

i wouldnt mess with it.

if youre not really interested its not worth the viewing just for cultural references. read the wiki and be done with it.

Did you want the whole of the Trek universe or just the original series?
That said, did you just want the best of Trek or something to give you a good, broad overview of the universe/series? The two are not the same, especially when it comes to DS9 where some of the better eps are stand alone, but the series as a whole has some rather long and interwoven story lines.

The whole, I don't see a difference as of now. I mean the best episodes, especially standalone ones.

And as a completely separate thing, also something (not long lines, just episodes) that gives an idea of how it all started and what it is. Just so I can change the idea of "Star Trek is a few guys and a lot red shirts on a starship going from nowhere to nowhere for no purpose" to something more specific.

Next Gen was good solid sci-fi, way ahead of almost anything on tv at the same time. It looks a little dated now, maybe - but if you watched it when it was new....


Next Gen was my favorite hands down.

I haven't seen a single episode of "Enterprise", so I can't speak to that.

Enterprise was pretty weak.

The whole, I don't see a difference as of now. I mean the best episodes, especially standalone ones.


Id recommend Q Who and Best of Both Worlds Part I and II. All three are in succession with each other and all three are Next Generation.

But I like the Borg.

The whole, I don't see a difference as of now. I mean the best episodes, especially standalone ones.

And as a completely separate thing, also something (not long lines, just episodes) that gives an idea of how it all started and what it is. Just so I can change the idea of "Star Trek is a few guys and a lot red shirts on a starship going from nowhere to nowhere for no purpose" to something more specific.

The problem, such as it is - is that that's actually going to give you the wrong idea about Star Trek.

The truth about Trek is - it's easy to talk about it in superlatives. It set so many benchmarks in the world of sci-fi. It IS the benchmark by which sci-fi is measured, even now. It broke cultural rules, to make itself something of a benchmark in televised media.

It has (at it's best) dissected everything from cold war politics, to the enforced relocations of peoples, to what it fundamentally means to be human. It's shown us gender, and race, and religion. It's taken us inside the mind of the killer, and face-to-face with god. When it's good, it's very very good.

I know it might sound strange, but you know, it just recently occurred to me that I've never seen a single episode of Star Trek. I've heard of it, I imagine it a bit, I even have opinions about it, but I have never actually seen it.

You know what just recently occurred to me? I've never seen a single episode of Star Trek. I've heard of it, I imagine it a bit, I even have opions about it, but I have never actually seen it.

I have no idea who Kirk or Spork are.

Spork is that plastic eating utensil that's like a spoon only with points. Dummy.

If you want a hilariously patronizing parable about the evils of racism, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" from the original series fits the bill.

And all the ones in TNG where Riker has beard are good.

i wouldnt mess with it.
if youre not really interested its not worth the viewing just for cultural references. read the wiki and be done with it.
I can't tell if I'm interested or not. I liked the movie, but it was another person who has watched it.

So far my favorite non-comedy TV series have been Firefly, BtVS, Angel and Torchwood. By "favorite", I mean "the only ones I could stand to watch". These all might have some "geekiness" to them, but they're well outside just sci-fi/fantasy, and much more grounded and RL-bound.


The truth about Trek is - it's easy to talk about it in superlatives.
OK, I get it, Star Trek is good, or very good. But that's not the point, I'm just not going to suddenly jump on watching a thousand-episode show all the way through. If it's all good, there's still something best. Like I can name best and outstanding episodes out of the shows that I have watched.

The whole, I don't see a difference as of now. I mean the best episodes, especially standalone ones.

And as a completely separate thing, also something (not long lines, just episodes) that gives an idea of how it all started and what it is. Just so I can change the idea of "Star Trek is a few guys and a lot red shirts on a starship going from nowhere to nowhere for no purpose" to something more specific.
Ah, ok.

For original series:
The City on the Edge of Forever
The Doomsday Machine
The Trouble with Tribbles
Mirror Mirror
The Ultimate Computer

I'd also recommend:
The Devil in the Dark
Journey to Babel
and The Enemy Within

For Next Gen:
Measure of a Man
The Best of Both Words Part 1 and 2
Family
Chain of Command Part 1 and 2
Redemption Part 1 and 2

I'd also recommend:
Q-Pid
Elementary, My Dear Data
All Good Things
Cause and Effect

DS9:
(This one is harder as there's a lot of interwoven story lines going on here)
The Visitor
Emissary
Trials and Tribble-ations
What You Leave Behind
Way of the Warrior
In the Pale Moonlight
The Siege of AR-558

Recommended:
Just about anything involving the Dominion War arc

Voyager:
Uh... Endgame just to celebrate that it's over?

Enterprise:
Don't... just... don't.
I take that back, In a Mirror Darkly part 1 and 2 is entertaining

Movies:
Star Trek II, III, & IV
Star Trek VI
Star Trek First Contact

And thems my recommendations.

just watch it a few times when you see that it is on your tv. youll know within.... 3 episodes... if its worth your time.

id start with the next generation but they are all worth watching....the original series is pretty weird today, the last series "enterprise" is the least successful.

For Tv series
star trek Original is ok. it is kinda space operay.
Next generation is good. however no interwoven plot so it is a little boring.
Deep space nine is very good. Interwoven plot and decent battles.
Enterprise and voyager are both crap.
Movies
Wrait of of kahn is the best they finally ha da director who had the nuts to tell a certain someone not to over act.
after that is first contact. and a very close 2nd it is.

the rest of the movies are sort of soso.

TOS:
Metamorphesis - introduces Zephram Cochrane [Star Trek: First Contact]
Empath - Great drama episode about sacrifice
Trouble with Tribbles - Follow this with DS9: Trials and Tribbilations
Space Seed - Background for Star Treck: Wrath of Khan
City on the Edge of Forever - do you sacrifice your world for the woman you love?
Mirror Mirror - Introduces the Mirror universe.
Balance of Terror - great ship to ship combat from the viewpoints of the captains involved.

there are more episodes from the Original Series that are good.. I recommend them if you want something that isn't SFX heavy.

TNG was dissappointing to me because as the FLAGSHIP, the Enterprise did less exploration and more patrolling the Federation Borders

DS9 got interesting after they started the Dominion war.

Voyager was one big missed opportunity.

Enterprise was their attempt to correct all the scientific mistakes of the original series.

there really is no continualty... since what is canon changes at the estate's whim.

There are alot of other good episodes

If you want a hilariously patronizing parable about the evils of racism, "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" from the original series fits the bill.

And all the ones in TNG where Riker has beard are good.

can think of alot of TNG episodes that show that.

Especially when the crew spouts off the "This is the Federation, you have to do it our way" line.

OK, I get it, Star Trek is good, or very good. But that's not the point, I'm just not going to suddenly jump on watching a thousand-episode show all the way through. If it's all good, there's still something best. Like I can name best and outstanding episodes out of the shows that I have watched.

I also like Buffy, Angel, and Torchwood. When Dr Who is good, I love Dr Who. I absolutely adored Firefly.

(Oh, I liked Red Dwarf, too - which might or might not mean anything to you).

That gives you a bit of an idea where I'm coming from as a viewer.

The problem is - should I tell you to watch DS9, which was the high-point? If I do, and you like it - it's kinda all downhill from there. Next Gen will be okay. The Original Series will still be alright. But you mightn't be able to even stand Voyager...

The problem is - should I tell you to watch DS9, which was the high-point? If I do, and you like it - it's kinda all downhill from there. Next Gen will be okay. The Original Series will still be alright. But you mightn't be able to even stand Voyager...
*nods*

the best thing is to grab the TOS and start from there, then move on to TNG, DS9, VOY and end with ENT.

It seems I really need to give DS9 a look. Ive never actually seen it.


How many seasons are there?

TOS:
Metamorphesis - introduces Zephram Cochrane [Star Trek: First Contact]
Empath - Great drama episode about sacrifice
Trouble with Tribbles - Follow this with DS9: Trials and Tribbilations
Space Seed - Background for Star Treck: Wrath of Khan
City on the Edge of Forever - do you sacrifice your world for the woman you love?
Mirror Mirror - Introduces the Mirror universe.
Balance of Terror - great ship to ship combat from the viewpoints of the captains involved.

there are more episodes from the Original Series that are good.. I recommend them if you want something that isn't SFX heavy.

TNG was dissappointing to me because as the FLAGSHIP, the Enterprise did less exploration and more patrolling the Federation Borders

DS9 got interesting after they started the Dominion war.

Voyager was one big missed opportunity.

Enterprise was their attempt to correct all the scientific mistakes of the original series.

there really is no continualty... since what is canon changes at the estate's whim.

There are alot of other good episodes

My problem is - I can barely remember the name of a single episode. :) "Star Seed" and "Way of The Warrior" would be about it.

The DS9 episode where they investigate one of the other Cardassian stations? Awesome episode - no idea what it's called.

The parallel dimension episode of Next Gen, where Klingon Cavort Class battlecruisers destroy the (an?) Enterprise - great. No idea what it's called.

Even Voyager had it's moments - the Grendel epic, with the EMH as the main character. No idea what it's called.

See my problem? :D

It seems I really need to give DS9 a look. Ive never actually seen it.


How many seasons are there?

Seven seasons. There's a lot of good stuff to be found there. I'm more of a fan of the stand alone eps myself, but the interwoven arcs aren't bad either.

It seems I really need to give DS9 a look. Ive never actually seen it.

How many seasons are there?

7, I believe.

Until the Dominion War picks up, it's a little patchy, but there's so much character material, it's still awesome. If it has a weakness, at all - it's that they did away with one sci-fi cliche (the robot that wants to be human) and replaced it with the other big sci-fi cliche (the monster with the heart of gold - in this case, a shapechanger).

But, all in all. It's all good.

My problem is - I can barely remember the name of a single episode. :) "Star Seed" and "Way of The Warrior" would be about it.

The DS9 episode where they investigate one of the other Cardassian stations? Awesome episode - no idea what it's called.

The parallel dimension episode of Next Gen, where Klingon Cavort Class battlecruisers destroy the (an?) Enterprise - great. No idea what it's called.

Even Voyager had it's moments - the Grendel epic, with the EMH as the main character. No idea what it's called.

See my problem? :D
same with me.

the one with the flying pizzas... the Gorn and Kirk builds a cannon with bamboo and other stuff... the one where Westly was going to be executed for a crime he committed on a planet...

each... incarnation of Star Trek have several episodes I like. but trying to remember them all...

Captain Kirk, Mister Spock, Doctor McCoy, and Ensign Gomez beam down to a strange planetoid. Which one will not return?

Hint: Ensign Gomez is wearing the red uniform.

can think of alot of TNG episodes that show that.

Especially when the crew spouts off the "This is the Federation, you have to do it our way" line.

"Number 1, the Prime directive forbids us from interfering"
"But Captain - they're Communists!"
"Fire all weapons! Photon torpedo pattern Delta!"

You're right. Come to think of it, the enterprise was a bit like a mobile sugar-coated fascism bomb. All alien races were basically inferior to humans due to at least one damning personality trait. The more I think about it, the more inherently racist it sounds!

the best ds9 episode is the one where sisko gets caught in some alternate dimension thing and jake has to give up his dreams and spend his entire life trying to rescue his father.

"Number 1, the Prime directive forbids us from interfering"
"But Captain - they're Communists!"
"Fire all weapons! Photon torpedo pattern Delta!"

You're right. Come to think of it, the enterprise was a bit like a mobile sugar-coated fascism bomb. All alien races were basically inferior to humans due to at least one damning personality trait. The more I think about it, the more inherently racist it sounds!

That's actually one of the things I loved about DS9... one of the many. Not only was it more 'multicultural' than most of the rest of the canon, and not only did it favour 'human' politics less - but it actually had the balls to make us sometimes the (really) bad guys, and sometimes... yeah, we got our asses handed to us for doing stupid shit like screwing around in someone's local war.

It was always my fondest hope that the next Star Trek franchise would be a kind of 'decline and fall' story, with the Federation fighting to maintain a smaller and smaller territory.

And they made "Voyager", and then "Enterprise". D'oh.

I never thought the guy that played Sisko could act.

"Angry" was talking fast and loudly
"upset" was talking slow
"stressed" was talking fast and quietly

His baseball had more expressive capabilities.

the best ds9 episode is the one where sisko gets caught in some alternate dimension thing and jake has to give up his dreams and spend his entire life trying to rescue his father.

I like Trials and Tribbilations.

the fact that the writer of the 'Trouble with Tribbles' got a cameo role in that episode and he came with one of the original Tribbles that he got to keep from that episode. so if you watch carefully, you'll see a red-shirt petting a tribble in the hallway... that tribble is the only one to star in both generations!

Stop trying to troll me Vault. It's pathetic.

*nods*
the best thing is to grab the TOS and start from there, then move on to TNG, DS9, VOY and end with ENT.
Well, you see, if we were talking about five movies, it would be a good idea.

But each of TNG, DS9, and Voyager is longer than the whole BtVS. And I don't even view BtVS as one series, since it's way too long for that. I know people who love Buffy's 1st and 2nd season, but can't stand the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th. And vice versa. You're talking about these series as if they were seasons.

So that's the issue. It took me 6 months of being trapped with no other possible entertainment than a computer, just to go through BtVS and Angel. I'll likely get back into that situation again (so I'll stockpile on TV series, maybe mostly 24), but I know I won't be half as interested in Star Trek (it just isn't *that*), so even watching an entire series of it would be a bit much. In other words, I'm not one of those people who watch a season in a day, my pace is more like two episodes a day if I have nothing else to do. If DS9 is as good, it's not a "high point" for me, it's like getting set with TV series for half a year.


Thanks for the suggestions from the TOS, BTW.
That's mostly what I'm looking for, specific episodes. Though what I'd like most would be like "Passion", "Anne", "The Wish", "Hush", "Once More with Feeling" BtVS episodes, particular ones that go outside the general scope of the series.

Stop trying to troll me Vault. It's pathetic.

Huh?

Huh?

Smunkee is a big huge giant mega Trekkie. (call me a Trekker at risk to your very life.....*grabs bat'leth* *prepares for battle*)

Thanks for the suggestions from the TOS, BTW.
That's mostly what I'm looking for, specific episodes. Though what I'd like most would be like "Passion", "Anne", "The Wish", "Hush", "Once More with Feeling" BtVS episodes, particular ones that go outside the general scope of the series.

Tough call. the best way is still to start with 1 and travel the road. Star Trek spans several decades of episodes. so the journey is long. to have others 'cherry pick' episodes really isn't the best way.

hey, you can always have a "trek" night and have friends over. :tongue:

Smunkee is a big huge giant mega Trekkie. (call me a Trekker at risk to your very life.....*grabs bat'leth* *prepares for battle*)

*Starts humming the TOS battle song.*

The problem, such as it is - is that that's actually going to give you the wrong idea about Star Trek.

The truth about Trek is - it's easy to talk about it in superlatives. It set so many benchmarks in the world of sci-fi. It IS the benchmark by which sci-fi is measured, even now. It broke cultural rules, to make itself something of a benchmark in televised media.

It has (at it's best) dissected everything from cold war politics, to the enforced relocations of peoples, to what it fundamentally means to be human. It's shown us gender, and race, and religion. It's taken us inside the mind of the killer, and face-to-face with god. When it's good, it's very very good.

The only problem with it is that most of isn't that good, and the huge not-so-great portions tend to give it the bitter taste it has with a lot of people.

Now, me, I grew up on The Next Generation. Picard was a childhood hero of mine.

But as I grew up I realized Star Trek just wasn't as good as I once thought it was. It's not perfect, not by far. Even at its best it makes up science and vaguely scientific sounding concepts all the time (Treknobabble didn't come out of nowhere) and often fails to reach the same level as a lot of other shows.

My point is simply that it's not the best thing in the world. It has its moments, and those moments are fantastic, and Star Trek will always be dear to me, but it's just not THAT good.

I never thought the guy that played Sisko could act.

"Angry" was talking fast and loudly
"upset" was talking slow
"stressed" was talking fast and quietly

His baseball had more expressive capabilities.

True, but he WAS good at what he could do well. Really good. And I liked him. Maybe it's just because I love that kind of voice and he's fun to listen to, but I liked Sisko.

Of course I also liked Wesley, and Neelix, so take that as you will.

I'm an old enough fart that I saw it when it was new, and I was a kid-- of course it seemed great. I watched "Lost in Space" at the same time, there was no comparison: by the standards of its time, "Trek" was awesomely ground-breaking.

The only problem with it is that most of isn't that good, and the huge not-so-great portions tend to give it the bitter taste it has with a lot of people.

Now, me, I grew up on The Next Generation. Picard was a childhood hero of mine.

But as I grew up I realized Star Trek just wasn't as good as I once thought it was. It's not perfect, not by far. Even at its best it makes up science and vaguely scientific sounding concepts all the time (Treknobabble didn't come out of nowhere) and often fails to reach the same level as a lot of other shows.

My point is simply that it's not the best thing in the world. It has its moments, and those moments are fantastic, and Star Trek will always be dear to me, but it's just not THAT good.

A lot of it is 'you have to be there'. If you didn't watch TOS before Next Gen hit, you just don't know how good Next Gen was. If you didn't see the sort of other stuff that TOS (and, in fact, Next Gen, again) was pitching against - you just don't know how good it was.

Trek set a standard for semi-hard sci-fi. Somewhere between the total space opera of something like Star Wars, and the harder scifi that is less popular on tv and in movies (because, for example, people like shit to go 'bang' when it explodes - even in space).

Looking back? Sure - there are weaknesses, but what are you comparing it against?

Some of the babble is cute. Labelling conduits "GNDN" because they 'go nowhere, do nothing'...? Genius. Some of it, less so. But then you watch something like "Galaxy Quest" that makes a pretty good job of sending those weaknesses up, and you notice that our scifi is getting better and better. Except for the occassional Lexx.

But, Star Trek was never really about the science. Girls watched it, and boys watched it. It can move across boundaries of race and gender, which is pretty special on it's own.. and almost certainly paved the way for things like "X Files". And - just like X Files... it had one third filler, one third pretty bad episodes... and one third fantastic.

What it was 'about'.... was Data, trying to work out wht humans are... and everyone having SUCH a hard time telling him. What it was about... was Nazi Stormtroopers, in a scifi environment (Jem Ha'Dar), and the Israel conflict... or Iraq (DS9). What it was about was glasnost (the dissolving Old Guard of the Klingon empire), and the fear or a wakened Russia (The Way of The Warrior). Who 'owns' our children? Who 'owns' ourselves? What it was about was a white man kissing a black woman.

Star Trek is THE Sign of The Times.

Combining personal preference with fan favorites, I've come up with the following list:

The Original Series (to find out who Kirk and Spock are):
City on the Edge of Forever
Balance of Terror
Amok Time
Doomsday Machine(not sure about title)

The Next Generation:
The Neutral Zone
Yesterday's Enterprise
Q Who?
The Best of Both Worlds parts one and two

Movies:
The Wrath of Kahn
The Search for Spock
The Voyage Home(these three are like parts of one story in a sense)
The Undiscovered Country
Generations
First Contact

I advise you to avoid:

All of Voyager
All of Enterprise
The last two movies

There are good bits in the above, but I many and others find much of it repelling.

The DS9 episode where they investigate one of the other Cardassian stations? Awesome episode - no idea what it's called.
Probably Empok Nor

The parallel dimension episode of Next Gen, where Klingon Cavort Class battlecruisers destroy the (an?) Enterprise - great. No idea what it's called.
Yesterday's Enterprise

Even Voyager had it's moments - the Grendel epic, with the EMH as the main character. No idea what it's called.

Heroes and Demons

the one with the flying pizzas...
Operation -- Annihilate!

the Gorn and Kirk builds a cannon with bamboo and other stuff...
Arena

the one where Westly was going to be executed for a crime he committed on a planet...
Justice

Trekkie? Who? Me? Naw...

I'm an old enough fart that I saw it when it was new, and I was a kid-- of course it seemed great. I watched "Lost in Space" at the same time, there was no comparison: by the standards of its time, "Trek" was awesomely ground-breaking.
ohmyGOD youre old!

i HATED lost in space, it was too stupid for me. i loved star trek so much that my best friends mother sometimes called me "mr spocks girlfriend".

i was 9 in '66 when it started.

A lot of it is 'you have to be there'. If you didn't watch TOS before Next Gen hit, you just don't know how good Next Gen was. If you didn't see the sort of other stuff that TOS (and, in fact, Next Gen, again) was pitching against - you just don't know how good it was.

Trek set a standard for semi-hard sci-fi. Somewhere between the total space opera of something like Star Wars, and the harder scifi that is less popular on tv and in movies (because, for example, people like shit to go 'bang' when it explodes - even in space).

Looking back? Sure - there are weaknesses, but what are you comparing it against?

Some of the babble is cute. Labelling conduits "GNDN" because they 'go nowhere, do nothing'...? Genius. Some of it, less so. But then you watch something like "Galaxy Quest" that makes a pretty good job of sending those weaknesses up, and you notice that our scifi is getting better and better. Except for the occassional Lexx.

But, Star Trek was never really about the science. Girls watched it, and boys watched it. It can move across boundaries of race and gender, which is pretty special on it's own.. and almost certainly paved the way for things like "X Files". And - just like X Files... it had one third filler, one third pretty bad episodes... and one third fantastic.

What it was 'about'.... was Data, trying to work out wht humans are... and everyone having SUCH a hard time telling him. What it was about... was Nazi Stormtroopers, in a scifi environment (Jem Ha'Dar), and the Israel conflict... or Iraq (DS9). What it was about was glasnost (the dissolving Old Guard of the Klingon empire), and the fear or a wakened Russia (The Way of The Warrior). Who 'owns' our children? Who 'owns' ourselves? What it was about was a white man kissing a black woman.

Star Trek is THE Sign of The Times.

True indeed. I mean, you don't see Stargate, for example handling these issues all that much, and if they do it's generally "The Bad guys aren't human so they're not worth anything" rather than the more sensible "Sentient species all have rights" approach of Star Trek.

I just think it could have been written better at times, that's all. As you said, when it was good, it was GOOD, but it still needed something more. Maybe I'm just wanting more from it as my tastes mature, and I'm probably being unfair, but I still want it to be a wee bit better.

ohmyGOD youre old!

i HATED lost in space, it was too stupid for me. i loved star trek so much that my best friends mother sometimes called me "mr spocks girlfriend".

i was 9 in '66 when it started.

I remember watching Lost in Space when I was five, along with Land of the Giants and other similar stuff on Sci-Fi.

I also remember watching an interview with the actor who played the little kid on Lost in Space and wondering how the hell he grew up so fast. (I was slow. I also thought that they filmed each episode of a show after they made the preview and that they then simply had a week to do it.)

I remember watching Lost in Space when I was five, along with Land of the Giants and other similar stuff on Sci-Fi.

I also remember watching an interview with the actor who played the little kid on Lost in Space and wondering how the hell he grew up so fast. (I was slow. I also thought that they filmed each episode of a show after they made the preview and that they then simply had a week to do it.)
yes but did you love lost in space when you were 5?

it started a year earlier than star trek but even when i was 8 i thought it was too stupid to watch.

yes but did you love lost in space when you were 5?

it started a year earlier than star trek but even when i was 8 i thought it was too stupid to watch.

No.

All things were inferior to Star Trek as far as I was concerned.

Except for Back to the Future. That was in the same league.

Probably Empok Nor


Yesterday's Enterprise


Heroes and Demons


Operation -- Annihilate!


Arena


Justice

Trekkie? Who? Me? Naw...

I bow, bow, to your l337 geekiness.

I advise you to avoid:

All of Voyager
All of Enterprise
The last two movies

There are good bits in the above, but I many and others find much of it repelling.

True this.

"Star Trek: Insurrection" one of the best names for a Star Trek movie... and one that has almost entirely fuckall to do with the movie, which turns out to largely be jokes about filling your pants with gas, and getting pimples.

That Star Trek movie is so bad, it makes Alien 4 look good.

True indeed. I mean, you don't see Stargate, for example handling these issues all that much, and if they do it's generally "The Bad guys aren't human so they're not worth anything" rather than the more sensible "Sentient species all have rights" approach of Star Trek.

I just think it could have been written better at times, that's all. As you said, when it was good, it was GOOD, but it still needed something more. Maybe I'm just wanting more from it as my tastes mature, and I'm probably being unfair, but I still want it to be a wee bit better.

What you wanted, then - was "Firefly". :)

No.

All things were inferior to Star Trek as far as I was concerned.

Except for Back to the Future. That was in the same league.
you were such a smart boy!

First Contact.

ahem.

Final Frontier

Yes, my mistake. First Contact. Great movie. Final Frontier. Abomination.

The episode with the sideways Cardassian station was Empok Nor, though I never understood why it would be sideways.

Voyager had some redeemable episodes. The episode with the species of evolved dinosaurs, "Distant Origin" was enjoyable. "Scorpion" and "Scorpion, Part II" were good too, even if it did send the Borg down that despicable path that Voyager sent them down. Of course, it had "Threshold", which is so bad the writing staff disavowed it.

DS9 was the best, by far. I have all seven seasons on DVD. Totally worth it.

Except for the occassional Lexx.

Oh lol, don't remind me about that show. Used to come on right after Farscape on Sci Fi.

True this.

"Star Trek: Insurrection" one of the best names for a Star Trek movie... and one that has almost entirely fuckall to do with the movie, which turns out to largely be jokes about filling your pants with gas, and getting pimples.

That Star Trek movie is so bad, it makes Alien 4 look good.

Ah, come on, it wasn't THAT bad. F. Murray Abraham was superb in his role, as usual.

(Yes, the humor was off-colour and really not necessary, and the Data regression pissed me off, but it still wasn't THAT bad.)

What you wanted, then - was "Firefly". :)
So I've been told.

And the Empok Nor sideways bit was just so the viewer didn't confuse it with Terok Nor/DS9.

And the Empok Nor sideways bit was just so the viewer didn't confuse it with Terok Nor/DS9.

Oh, I know it was done for the audiences, but it's still dumb. It's space. There's nothing to be "sideways" in relation to, you know? I'm not one of those fanatical hard sci-fi guys, but that one in particular irked me.

Oh, I know it was done for the audiences, but it's still dumb. It's space. There's nothing to be "sideways" in relation to, you know? I'm not one of those fanatical hard sci-fi guys, but that one in particular irked me.

Well, it's Star Trek. Ships bank and make noise in space and do everything else that all other Sci-Fi does. We either accept it or go mad.

Or make our own Sci-fi!

Oh lol, don't remind me about that show. Used to come on right after Farscape on Sci Fi.

I had to mention it for statistical reasons. :)

If I'm going to claim an upward trend, I have to admit that there is some scatter. And - for every "Heroes", "Firefly" (curses) or (new) "Dr Who" we get.... there's a dash of "Lexx". Or something with Kevin Sorbo in it.

What you wanted, then - was "Firefly". :)

They need to make a Serenity 2. Damn FOX and the TV screen rights!

I had to mention it for statistical reasons. :)

If I'm going to claim an upward trend, I have to admit that there is some scatter. And - for every "Heroes", "Firefly" (curses) or (new) "Dr Who" we get.... there's a dash of "Lexx". Or something with Kevin Sorbo in it.

Andromeda was good until the production team sacked Robert Wolfe mid-way through the second season to switch to a more episodic format. They went away from the mythos they were establishing with the serial format and made it into an adventure-of-the-week.

For the record: Robert Wolfe wrote about thirty episodes for DS9, including "The Way of the Warrior", "Call to Arms", and "Hard Time". His first screenplay for Star Trek was "A Fistful of Datas", for TNG. For the two seasons he was the head writer for Andromeda, it was nominated for a Saturn Award for best syndicated series both times.

Andromeda was good until the production team sacked Robert Wolfe mid-way through the second season to switch to a more episodic format. They went away from the mythos they were establishing with the serial format and made it into an adventure-of-the-week.

For the record: Robert Wolfe wrote about thirty episodes for DS9, including "The Way of the Warrior", "Call to Arms", and "Hard Time". His first screenplay for Star Trek was "A Fistful of Datas", for TNG. For the two seasons he was the head writer for Andromeda, it was nominated for a Saturn Award for best syndicated series both times.

Andromeda was actually good, until they went with the "by the way, you're a god, she's a star, and crewmate #1 is the genetic offspring of crewmate #2" bizarro world

Andromeda was actually good, until they went with the "by the way, you're a god, she's a star, and crewmate #1 is the genetic offspring of crewmate #2" bizarro world

Yep. Seasons one and two had Robert Wolfe as the head writer (Wolfe was sacked about midway through season two, but had contributed to so many in-production screenplays that his influence could be felt through the remainder of that season). Those were the seasons with storyline continuity, balanced character development, and constant plot progression. After he was removed, the writing devolved into little more than a star vehicle for Kevin Sorbo.

They need to make a Serenity 2. Damn FOX and the TV screen rights!

No arguments, here. (It remains to be seen if they'll murder Dollhouse.)

Wait, who the hell is "Spork?"

Avoid Star Trek: Enterprise; there may have been a promising episode somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember which one. (Oh wait, I remember now - the two part episode in the mirror universe).

Deep Space Nine was sporadically good, but failed to keep my interest.

Voyager was pretty good and the ended it well. The best episodes, in my opinion emphasized 7 of 9, Tuvok, Paris and Harry Kim. The ones I liked least involved Kes (fortunately she only lasted a short time)

The Next Generation was probably the best of the TV franchise - except for Ken and Barbie (Deanna Troi and Will Riker) although the attempted development of a relationship between Deanna and Worf was interesting. The episodes I liked least were the ones involving Q and Wesley (aka apprentice Godling) Crusher.

The Original Series was in a class by itself - partially because it was created in the '60's and has a lot of the flaws inherent in the sixties both in terms of special effects and in terms of plot lines. But it was addictive. The best episodes were probably the ones where Shatner got to display his comic ability, like the Trouble With Tribbles.

Of the movies - Star Trek: the Motion Picture aka Star Trek: The Quest for a Plot was terrible. The Wrath of Khan and the Search for Spock were classic. The Voyage Home was good, the Final Frontier had promise and some good lines, but was a disappointment. The Undiscovered Country was another classic. First Contact was ok and had some good lines and scenes, but everything after that kind of lost me.

There was an animated series in the '70s, but I never saw any of the shows.

Andromeda was actually good, until they went with the "by the way, you're a god, she's a star, and crewmate #1 is the genetic offspring of crewmate #2" bizarro world

That's when they stopped aiming the show at people who were actually intelligent and started trying to pull in the "lowest common denominator."

DS9 was the best, by far. I have all seven seasons on DVD. Totally worth it.

*is jealous*

...I've seen many TOS episodes, but not all, and I find it quite dated now, but that's probably because I wasn't alive when it first ran.

Voyager had a few good episodes, but most of the characters were poorly developed, the original premise was never properly utilized, and they transformed the Borg from arch-nemesis into villains-of-the-week.

Never bothered with Enterprise...I wanted a new Trek to be set well after Voyager, not long before TOS.

TNG and DS9, however, are two of my favorite shows of all time. I have to give the edge to DS9. TNG had many interesting plots, and did well in developing Picard and Data, but other than them the characters were a little flat. DS9 not only had well rounded regulars, but a whole host of recurring characters that were every bit as compelling as the regular cast.

The moral questions raised in DS9 cut deeper than those found in all but a few select Trek episodes. It strayed from the traditional "Roddenberry" vision of the future and looked for the shades of grey. In this, it excelled.

And if explosions and flashy lights are your thing, (I know I enjoy them), you can't beat the Dominion War story arc of the last 2 seasons. Some amazing stuff there.

All the movies are watchable...except for the fifth one. Save yourself the Row-Row-Row-Your-Boat and rewatch some TOS.

A few of my select favorite episodes...I'm going to try to avoid the oft-mentioned favorites (Borg episodes, etc) and focus on less well-known stuff. (descriptions from Wiki)

TNG
Season 1
"Heart of Glory" - Fugitive Klingons seeking battle attempt to hijack the Enterprise, and ask Worf to join them.

Season 2
"The Measure of a Man" - After Data refuses to be dismantled for research purposes, a hearing is convened to determine if he is a private citizen or Federation property.

Season 3
"The Enemy" - Geordi is trapped on a harsh planet with a hostile Romulan, and the two must work together to survive.

Season 4
"Future Imperfect" - Riker finds himself sixteen years into the future, his memory of the intervening period erased by a dormant virus.

Season 5
"Cause and Effect" - The Enterprise becomes stuck in a causality loop, but the crew retain some memory of previous instances.

Season 6
"Timescape" - The Enterprise is caught in temporal stasis, and on the brink of destruction by the Romulans.

Season 7
"Lower Decks" - Junior officers buck for promotion as one of them is assigned the dangerous task of helping a Cardassian spy.

DS9
Season 1
"Dramatis Personae" - A Klingon ship comes through the wormhole and explodes. After this, a mutiny begins, with Kira leading the way.

Season 2
"Blood Oath" - Jadzia Dax honors an oath made by Curzon Dax to a group of Klingons, and goes with them on a crusade against an albino.

Season 3
"Life Support" - Bashir's ethics are put to the test as he keeps Vedek Bareil alive to continue negotiating a Bajoran peace treaty with Cardassia through Kai Winn.

Season 4
"Hard Time" - O'Brien is accused of espionage by an alien race who use a more expeditious form of incarcerating criminals.

Season 5
"In the Cards" - Jake wants to give his dad an old birthday present.

Season 6
"Inquisition" - Bashir is accused of unknowingly spying for the Dominion.

Season 7
"Treachery, Faith, and the Great River" - A Vorta defector gives Odo valuable information in exchange for asylum.

*sniff*
*sniff*
...NERDS!
Yay!
*proudly counts self as one*

There's too many. Every series had its pluses and minuses.

Wait, who the hell is "Spork?"Ask WYTYG.
<.<
>.>

I would definitely recommend DS9 or TNG. Both are good, though I would say DS9 was my favorite. TNG might be better to start with if you want something with more self-contained plots, though. Also, a number of important elements in DS9 were introduced in TNG.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm just going to jump in anyway and say this:

I was in your position once. My friend and I came to realize that all our friends were into Trek and we had never seen any of it and we could hardly even keep up with a conversation anymore, so we had to get current. So we just sat down every night at 1am and watched every episode of the first series in reruns until we were caught up.

Here is my advice: Do what I did.

Watch the first series. The one with Bill Shatner and Leonard Nimoy. Every episode. Even the sucky ones. Just work through the pain (and it will hurt; oh how it will hurt; but it's good for you). Watch them over and over until you can tell which season you're looking at just by the color of Nimoy's eyeshadow.

THEN AND ONLY THEN, look at the movies and later series.

Here is what you'll get out of this (aside from red, irritated eyes):

(1) An understanding of the true nature and aesthetic of television as an art medium -- in other words, what television is supposed to be (I'm serious).

(2) An immediate understanding of why all the other versions suck crap, which will become apparent the minute you look at them.

(3) And possibly an insight into the progressive downslide of American culture into an ever more bland, colorless, textureless, generic, focus-grouped, brand-marketed hell of boredom and emptiness. (Compare the brilliant turquoise/pink/orange world of the first Trek to the beige/maroon and finally gray-on-gray work-cubicle worlds of the later ones. *shudder*)

Count me as another fan who can't remember the names of any of the episodes, so rather than post my own list I'm going to poach someone else's.

While I'm a huge DS9 fan, I think what Vault wants is to see enough of the series to understand a) what people are talking about and perhaps b) how it influenced later TV and Sci-Fi. The original series is probably the best bet, though if one is watching it now for the first time, it's important to keep in mind that in the pre-VCR era, standards for TV storytelling were very different -- serious continuity and tiny details are frowned upon when nobody's going to see that series-changing episode again until it hits syndication, out of order, three summers from now. You can pick up "what it's all about" from the opening sequence with its famously split infinitive.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where_no_man_has_gone_before)Trek at its best is a great example of 20th-century sci-fi -- our heroes get into situation X, which is either a metaphor for real-life contemporary issue Y or an example of philosophical issue Z or both.

While I was frantically Googling plot details to try to pull up episode titles, I came across this guy's list of essential original series episodes. He lists way too many of them for a simple series overview -- plus he starts with the unaired pilot, which is a little like saying that you should get introduced to Tori Amos by first listening to her failed attempt at pirate-themed glam-rock -- but he helpfully explains why he thinks each episode is important, making it easier to figure out which ones you want to see based on what interests you (character development, series cliches, Cold War metaphors, etc.)

List Part 1 (http://www.thefilmfrontier.com/blog/2007/04/essential-star-trek-part-1.htm)
Part 2 (http://thefilmfrontier.blogspot.com/2007/09/pgx-32-essential-star-trek-part-2.html)
Part 3 (http://thefilmfrontier.blogspot.com/2008/03/pgx-44-essential-star-trek-part-3.html)
Part 4 (http://www.thefilmfrontier.com/blog/2008/07/essential-star-trek-part-4.htm)

Andromeda was actually good, until they went with the "by the way, you're a god, she's a star, and crewmate #1 is the genetic offspring of crewmate #2" bizarro world

oh gods yes.

I've always felt that tweeking Andromeda to star trek would've been a better idea than making Enterprise.

you have the Enterprise-Omega (or whatever) being stuck/catapulted a century into the future where all three Governments (Federation, Kingon Empire, Romulan Empire) all collapsed and you have the one remnant ship and crew trying to rebuild the Federation.

a perfect 'reboot'. where you can re-discover the Andorians, Klingons, Romulans, humans, etc (and all their offshoots) while being more grittier, darker and edgier.

While I'm a huge DS9 fan, I think what Vault wants is to see enough of the series to understand a) what people are talking about and perhaps b) how it influenced later TV and Sci-Fi.
Yes, that's right, in part (and thanks for the list!). In other part, just see some best episodes of it. I'm not on a quest to become a Trek fan.

What do I mean by best... Well, Doctor Who just didn't work out for me, but I did like Torchwood a lot - a more hardcore spinoff. Generally I like TV series along the lines of Firefly or the last BtVS episodes: down-to-Earth, personal, real.


---

BTW, on an unrelated note (TG if it's an issue)... Is there some Trek-oriented website/tracker where I could get it in good quality at a reasonable speed? Just that I need some specific episodes so DVDs aren't a good idea; maybe there's a fan source for Trek, like Motorworld for car shows.

The first episode of Star Trek I ever saw, which impressed me a lot at the time, was on a desert planet with only one couple living on it; the wife looks different to everyone who looks at her, always appearing as that man's ideal, although the crew doesn't catch onto this at first. Various "Ensign Gomez" characters wander off and are attacked by a monster that sticks suckers on their face and, as Dr. McCoy discovers, drains every molecule of salt from their bodies. Naturally, the salt-sucker monster turns out to be the shape-shifter who is also their beautiful hostess.

I have never seen this episode since. Probably just as well, since I wouldn't be as impressed as when I was eleven.

The first episode of Star Trek I ever saw, which impressed me a lot at the time, was on a desert planet with only one couple living on it; the wife looks different to everyone who looks at her, always appearing as that man's ideal, although the crew doesn't catch onto this at first. Various "Ensign Gomez" characters wander off and are attacked by a monster that sticks suckers on their face and, as Dr. McCoy discovers, drains every molecule of salt from their bodies. Naturally, the salt-sucker monster turns out to be the shape-shifter who is also their beautiful hostess.

I have never seen this episode since. Probably just as well, since I wouldn't be as impressed as when I was eleven.

I may be wrong, but I think that was the first episode ever aired on television.

I may be wrong, but I think that was the first episode ever aired on television.

You would be correct. "The Man Trap". It was something like the sixth episode produced, though.

...a little like saying that you should get introduced to Tori Amos by first listening to her failed attempt at pirate-themed glam-rock --

Glammy, certainly - but a damn good album...

I may be wrong, but I think that was the first episode ever aired on television.That's right. It used to be a really big deal every fall, watching the new series, arguing about which of the three offerings (there were only three) we should try.

Depends a great deal what you are looking for. While TOS has what I think are some of the best stand alone episodes (City on the Edge of Forever and Balance of Terror are two of the finest pieces of straight-up sci-fi ever put to celluloid), TNG really perfected the form of the one-at-a-time sci-fi adventure series. DS9 is the best of the series, though, because it comes the closest to making one large coherent story out of seven seasons of episodes, and the fact that it often points out just how hard it is to hold onto your morals when you aren't on the Federation flagship. There were a few good Voyager episodes, but by this time they were largely running on fumes vented from 7-of-9's smoking hotness. Aside from the two-part episode about the mirror universe, there's nothing much to see from Enterprise.

Episodes:

TOS:
City of the Edge of Forever
Balance of Terror
The Tholian Web
The Doomsday Machine
Mirror, Mirror (bearded Spock!)

TNG:
Q Who (intro to the Borg)
Yesterday's Enterprise
The Best of Both Worlds I
The Best of Both Worlds II
The Inner Light
Tapestry (The Inner Light and Tapestry may be the only real rivals to City on the Edge of Forever as far as excellent pure sci-fi goes)
Chain of Command
Lower Decks
All Good Things

DS9:
The Jem'Hadar
The Way of the Warrior I and II
In the Pale Moonlight (this is the money shot for the entire Trek universe)
Through the Looking Glass, Darkly (I believe that's the name)

DS9, In the Pale Moonlight aside, has fewer outstanding stand-alone episodes and more episodes that build on one another to something outstanding. Season 6 and 7 of the Dominion War were just furiously good pieces of entertainment, as we saw all that was good about humanity on the brink of destruction, both from the Dominion without and what it was costing the Federation in terms of its ideals from within.

Depends a great deal what you are looking for. While TOS has what I think are some of the best stand alone episodes (City on the Edge of Forever and Balance of Terror are two of the finest pieces of straight-up sci-fi ever put to celluloid), TNG really perfected the form of the one-at-a-time sci-fi adventure series. DS9 is the best of the series, though, because it comes the closest to making one large coherent story out of seven seasons of episodes, and the fact that it often points out just how hard it is to hold onto your morals when you aren't on the Federation flagship. There were a few good Voyager episodes, but by this time they were largely running on fumes vented from 7-of-9's smoking hotness. Aside from the two-part episode about the mirror universe, there's nothing much to see from Enterprise.

Episodes:

TOS:
City of the Edge of Forever
Balance of Terror
The Tholian Web
The Doomsday Machine
Mirror, Mirror (bearded Spock!)

TNG:
Q Who (intro to the Borg)
Yesterday's Enterprise
The Best of Both Worlds I
The Best of Both Worlds II
The Inner Light
Tapestry (The Inner Light and Tapestry may be the only real rivals to City on the Edge of Forever as far as excellent pure sci-fi goes)
Chain of Command
Lower Decks
All Good Things

DS9:
The Jem'Hadar
The Way of the Warrior I and II
In the Pale Moonlight (this is the money shot for the entire Trek universe)
Through the Looking Glass, Darkly (I believe that's the name)

DS9, In the Pale Moonlight aside, has fewer outstanding stand-alone episodes and more episodes that build on one another to something outstanding. Season 6 and 7 of the Dominion War were just furiously good pieces of entertainment, as we saw all that was good about humanity on the brink of destruction, both from the Dominion without and what it was costing the Federation in terms of its ideals from within.

Your list inspired me to create my own list, as I felt so much was right yet so much was left off. :)

I'm too young for TOS, but I grew up on TNG and DS9, so I will stick with what I know.

TNG

The Measure of a Man
Q Who?
The Defector
Yesterday's Enterprise
Sins of the Father
The Best of Both Worlds, I and II
Remember Me (the only time I could stand Dr. Crusher)
The Drumhead
The Inner Light
Chain of Command, I and II
Tapestry
All Good Things....

DS9

Duet
Whispers
The Jem'Hadar
Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast
The Way of the Warrior, I and II
Hard Time
Nor the Battle to the Strong
For the Uniform
Waltz
Far Beyond the Stars
In the Pale Moonlight

BTW, on an unrelated note (TG if it's an issue)... Is there some Trek-oriented website/tracker where I could get it in good quality at a reasonable speed? Just that I need some specific episodes so DVDs aren't a good idea; maybe there's a fan source for Trek, like Motorworld for car shows.

I would not condone this. after all, what one person calls a "good episode" might not be what you would call a "good episode"

That being said... you can always try here (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/index.html).

I like the original Star Trek the best.

As a general rule, the even-numbered movies are decent and the odd-numbered movies are rather weak. Don't waste your time with Star Trek: The Motion Picture. None of the movies really qualify as stellar cinema, but they are really better than a lot of the other Hollywood garbage.*waits for attack from rabid trekkies*

The original series is mostly good campy fun. I watched those when I found a local library that had all the seasons on DVD. The Next Generation is definitely better-than-average television, and I liked the Deep Space Nine episodes I saw (though they were few and far between). I can't really say anything about Voyager or Enterprise because I've seen less of them than I saw of DS9.

Being of the NCC Geezer class, ive seen every episode of Star trek up to Enterprise(which for some reason wasnt televised in my area at the time it was new and never bothered to catch the old episodes)

My fav series was TNG and i also dont remember episode titles to save my life.

Two of my favorite episodes of TNG i havnt seen mentioned yet. One was where Picard discovered a sattelite floating in space that made him relive an entire lifetime of a member of a long dead race in a matter of a few minutes so the dead race could still share the story of their existence. Incredible.

The second and one of my top 5 fav episodes of all time may have been called Darmak and Gilad but its just a guess. Picard is trapped on a planet with an alien and the language translators dont work and Picard spends the entire episode trying to learn how the alien, who doesnt use words in a normal sence, speaks. It was an incredible episode that didnt involve ships shooting at each other to be compelling.

Two of my favorite episodes of TNG i havnt seen mentioned yet. One was where Picard discovered a sattelite floating in space that made him relive an entire lifetime of a member of a long dead race in a matter of a few minutes so the dead race could still share the story of their existence. Incredible.

That was an awesome episode.

I've decided not to make a list for you. You should watch all of the Star Trek.

I will outline my favorite episode from each incarnation for you though.

TOS- Charlie X, not only does it feature Yeoman Rand (yum!) but it's a pretty good episode and Kirk gets to be Kirk and Spock gets to be Spock and Uhura gets to sing.

TNG- All Good things. You have Q, being, well, Q. You have Picard confused, which is always fun, temporal disturbances, time travel, paradoxes and Data FTW! Also, old Worf and Crusher in the future. Nice.

DS9- I hated. I did like Trials and Tribble-ations, however you should also watch The trouble with Tribbles in TOS to really get the effect.

Voyager- Heroes and Demons. Basic holodeck episode, Voyager was full of them. Some of them are probably better than this one, but I like this one for reasons I don't actually

Enterprise- In a mirror, darkly. Basic Star Trek mirror image episode, although, you should watch Mirror, Mirror in TOS to get the full effect.

Like I said you should watch all the Star Trek.

I would personally skip the movies, you won't get much out of them if you aren't a fan of the show and a lot of the in-jokes in the movies will go over your head.

TOS- Charlie X, not only does it feature Yeoman Rand (yum!) but it's a pretty good episode and Kirk gets to be Kirk and Spock gets to be Spock and Uhura gets to sing.


Also, I think this is the episode that created a scifi tradition - the character without a face. So - when you're watching the Matrix, and the Agents screw with Neo, and make his mouth fuse together... thank "Charlie X".

Two of my favorite episodes of TNG i havnt seen mentioned yet. One was where Picard discovered a sattelite floating in space that made him relive an entire lifetime of a member of a long dead race in a matter of a few minutes so the dead race could still share the story of their existence. Incredible.

That would be Inner Light.

ohmyGOD youre old!

i HATED lost in space, it was too stupid for me. i loved star trek so much that my best friends mother sometimes called me "mr spocks girlfriend".

i was 9 in '66 when it started.

You're a year older than me! How is this possible?

I haven't had a TV for years so I'm only familiar with TOS and TNG. Although I much prefer TNG, I must concede that the universe seems much smaller - the sense of mystery and exploration is often missing.

My favourite episode is in TNG. Data is reproducing Sherlock Holmes mysteries on the holodeck. To create a challenge for him Ryker programs a Moriarty character into the holodeck who is so clever he deduces that he is a computer program and begs not to be swithched off. That just gobsmacked me.

The Next Generation and Voyager were my favourites. Deep space 9 had its moments but perhaps being contained on the Spece station had a weird effect )a sort of hothouse insularity) that the other series avoided.

The original series is teh win.

Kirk ownz.

You're a year older than me! How is this possible?

I haven't had a TV for years so I'm only familiar with TOS and TNG. Although I much prefer TNG, I must concede that the universe seems much smaller - the sense of mystery and exploration is often missing.

My favourite episode is in TNG. Data is reproducing Sherlock Holmes mysteries on the holodeck. To create a challenge for him Ryker programs a Moriarty character into the holodeck who is so clever he deduces that he is a computer program and begs not to be swithched off. That just gobsmacked me.
my fav is the one where picard lives a whole lifetime with children and grandchildren on a doomed planet that was destroyed a thousand years ago.

my fav is the one where picard lives a whole lifetime with children and grandchildren on a doomed planet that was destroyed a thousand years ago.

Your late by 6 posts.

I know it might sound strange, but you know, it just recently occurred to me that I've never seen a single episode of Star Trek. I've heard of it, I imagine it a bit, I even have opinions about it, but I have never actually seen it.

You know what, I don't find that strange at all. Call me crazy, but you should watch a show because you enjoy it not because everyone else does and can't shut up about it one way or the other. There's entire shows I've never even seen a single episode of that others just love to death. Everyone has different tastes, it only seems strange to you.

As I get it, there's a lot of geeks on this board, and among them should be some who have watched enough of Star Trek to give some advice.
So, what episodes and feature movies do you consider standing out of the rest, and really must-see? I mean more along the lines of really better episodes rather than just favorites.
Also, if I was to try to learn a bit of what it's all about, what episodes do contain some pieces that are the earliest chronologically, including background?

Well, as someone who has seen the majority if not all of Star Trek (minus that Animated Series) I can offer you some advice, but your probably not going to like it.

As for what episode and movies, you should really watch all of them, even the bad ones if your series about getting into what is the heart of Startrek. By just selecting tidbits, your missing the grander vision of what startrek is all about. However, if your determined to cherry pick the episodes then I would suggest you click on the link I will have listed at the bottom of this post.

Smunkee is a big huge giant mega Trekkie. (call me a Trekker at risk to your very life.....*grabs bat'leth* *prepares for battle*)

What's life without a little risk, so *rolls dice* and proceeds to grab a *Romulan disruptor along with some Romulan Ale {good vintage}*.

OK, Trekker! Listen up! I hate to tell you this, but that whole stupid Trekkie/Trekker thing was solved by the lovely Denise Crosby sometime ago in a movie aptly titled, "Trekkies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekkies_(film)). Followed not long after by it's sequel "Trekkies 2" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekkies_2). If, you haven't seen those movies, *Fires Romulan Disruptor and watches Smunk die a painful death*. If you have, you win Round 1 and *takes a gulp of Romulan Ale*.

We still have Round 2 though, best two out of three. An easy one to start off with. Since this scene takes place within one among a few of my favorite episodes of DS9, here goes.

The Scene: When talking with Sisko, Sisko asks Garak who is watching Grathon Tolar, Garak replies that he left Tolar with the following what impression?

Wait, who the hell is "Spork?"

A combined Kirk/Spock similar to a Tuvix in what happen in Voyage Episode #140 [Tuvix]. I have more theories, but the one above makes the most [bad pun coming] logical sense.

Tough call. the best way is still to start with 1 and travel the road. Star Trek spans several decades of episodes. so the journey is long. to have others 'cherry pick' episodes really isn't the best way.

QFT, though it would of been nice if someone had told me that beforehand. I might of just forgotten about startrek knowing all the time I would of had for other things. Saying the journey is long is an understatement. Took me nearly a decade to catch up on everything. Thank god for syndicated reruns.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

In closing, for all of you listing episodes. What is wrong with all of you in forgetting one of the most important episodes in DS9, "The Call to Arms". Everything has a beginning and The Call to Arms was that beginning, the beginning of the Dominion War. For Shame!

And those of you who can't seem for heavens sake to remember a simple title, I give you the following. The Library of Startrek Episodes (http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/episodes/index.html) along with a nice synopsis for each episode.

That ends today rant:soap:, thank you for listening. :D:rolleyes:

What's life without a little risk, so *rolls dice* and proceeds to grab a *Romulan disruptor along with some Romulan Ale {good vintage}*.

OK, Trekker! Listen up! I hate to tell you this, but that whole stupid Trekkie/Trekker thing was solved by the lovely Denise Crosby sometime ago in a movie aptly titled, "Trekkies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekkies_(film)). Followed not long after by it's sequel "Trekkies 2" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trekkies_2). If, you haven't seen those movies, *Fires Romulan Disruptor and watches Smunk die a painful death*. If you have, you win Round 1 and *takes a gulp of Romulan Ale*.
It was settled by Roddenberry himself. I'm a Trekkie.

We still have Round 2 though, best two out of three. An easy one to start off with. Since this scene takes place within one among a few of my favorite episodes of DS9, here goes.
I loathe DS9.

The Scene: When talking with Sisko, Sisko asks Garak who is watching Grathon Tolar, Garak replies that he left Tolar with the following what impression?
That if he attempted to leave the door would explode? It's really best to dwell on such minutiae.
:p

I win. You lose.

Also, I win double because I loath DS9 and I didn't even have to look that shit up.

Also, I triple win, because my very spawn are named after Trek characters.

"I've locked him in his quarters. I've also left him with the distinct impression that if he attempts to force open the door, it may...explode."

"I hope that's just an impression."

"It's best not to dwell on such minutiae."

Your late by 6 posts.
whoa you mean someone else already posted what my favorite TNG episode is?

wow, this should be in the psychic thread!

Also, I triple win, because my very spawn are named after Trek characters.

My brother did that... (one each from TOS and TNG) :)

Meet my kids! Spock, Data, Worf & Quark.

Meet my kids! Spock, Data, Worf & Quark.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

Bones and Locutus are common names, down our way.

"I've locked him in his quarters. I've also left him with the distinct impression that if he attempts to force open the door, it may...explode."

"I hope that's just an impression."

"It's best not to dwell on such minutiae."

I was working from fuzzy memory. Mea culpa.

I was working from fuzzy memory. Mea culpa.

Ah. I was working from sick, demented obsession.

ohmyGOD youre old!
Sure am!
OK, what is your candidate for ABSOLUTE WORST Trek episode?
I loathe the one with a character named Lazarus, who exists as two alter egos in parallel universes, one made of matter and one made of antimatter, so if the two ever meet in the same universe, both universes will be destroyed!!! (worst pseudo-science) and they keep crossing back and forth between the universes in this tunnel-like thing, wrestling with each other (worst "specious effects"). While Lazarus is a guest on the Enterprise, totally unguarded although they know nothing about him, he wanders around and nearly destroys the ship; so, Kirk says "We won't let that happen again!" and.... JUST WALKS AWAY, totally forgetting what he just said, so Lazarus can wander around some more unguarded and nearly destroy the ship again (worst continuity failure).

Sure am!
OK, what is your candidate for ABSOLUTE WORST Trek episode?
TOS: Spock's Brain. I mean, come on! Beautiful alien girls steal Spock's brain and then Dr. McCoy turns him into a remote controlled Vulcan?

TNG: Shades of Grey. There are bottle shows, and then there are bottle shows that show just how bad things can really be.

DS9: Move Along Home: I'm STILL not sure what the hell this was about, really.

Voyager: The granddaddy of them all, Threshold. Threshold is just awful, even the writer admitted that what he produced was crap.

Enterprise: Uh... just about the whole series actually.

Movies: Star Trek V The Final Fronter. Introducing fart jokes into Star Trek. Oh, and let's not forget the incredible growing Enterprise that suddenly has 78 decks, numbered in the wrong way.

Among TNG episodes, surely the late one where Wesley Crusher turns out to be a deity in training has to be the worst.

Here's how I sum up Star Trek for me personally...

TOS was good. I'm still watching it though. It's quite difficult to watch, mainly for cultural reasons. But then, I find all good TV shows from the 60's and 70's difficult to watch, because I'm only young. I still love TOS, but I find I can only handle it in small doses. It's the same with the original Battlestar Galactica.

TNG and DS9 are the best. But in different ways. TNG had more good episodes, DS9 had the best. I think. It could be the other way around. Since getting a girlfriend I haven't had much time for Star Trek *sniffle*. TNG had the best characters, but DS9 had more good characters.

TNG is good to just sit around and watch, because so many of its episodes were standalone. TNG is one of the few tv shows I've seen where it's ending is just as good, if not better than its beginning. Overall, it's consistantly good. Sometimes great. There are a few bad episodes, but they are very few. Of every Star Trek season I've seen, TNG had the best first and last episodes, since they tied in so well together. I'd also dare say that TNG's last episode is the best Star Trek episode there is. TNG is very philosophical, with Picard often being faced with difficult moral decisions and having to make a decision. Hence the saying "what would Picard do?"

DS9 is really something you need to watch with attention. I'd characterise DS9 as being similiar to The X-Files in episode layout. Some episodes are standalone, some episodes further the story. If you miss one of the story-furthering episodes, you will have missed out when it comes to the next story-furthering episode. DS9 is the most exciting Star Trek series, especially with the Dominion war. There are a lot of battles and plot developments in DS9 which keep the viewer interested. At times, DS9 gets rather epic. DS9 also has a lot of good recurring minor characters. Moreso than TNG, which only had a couple, and they were mostly annoying. DS9 focuses very much on people and their interactions. Dealing with issues that run in parallel to our own history (occupation, extermination of races of people, terrorism, etc.). Compared to DS9, TNG seems very light-hearted at times, due to DS9's darker themes.

I've not seen Voyager, and I have no plans to any time soon. Jane-Way annoys me too much.

I've also not seen Enterprise, and I don't think I will either.

As for the movies...

Generations is a good film, as it ends the TOS franchise and blends it into TNG. First Contact will make more sense if you have seen The Best of Both Worlds parts 1 and 2 (TNG). Insurrection is fairly standalone. Nemesis is most enjoyable if you've seen all of TNG (but could also be the most annoying, depending on how you look at it). Overall, First Contact and Generations are great, Insurrection can be overlooked since very little happens in it, but I still like it. Nemesis you'll either love or hate.

As for the TOS movies...

The Motion Picture is good if you like beauty shots of a model Enterprise.
Wrath of Khan is just awesome. Period. End of discussion.
Search for Spock is okay. I didn't think much of it, but I haven't seen it in quite a while too. So I shall have to rewatch it.
The Voyage Home was just bad, in my opinion. I really didn't like it. But some people do.
Final Frontier is one of my personal favourites, mainly because I like when the Klingon's shoot God. And of course, the line "what does God need with a starship?". Some Star Trek fans don't consider this movie canon, since it contradicts a few things in the show.
The Undiscovered Country is another good one. That's all there really is to say about it.

In the Star Trek universe, it seems that each of the major races represent a particular aspect of humanity. The Klingons of course being the fighting because we can mentality. The Romulans are the intelligent, antagonising cowards, who will act tough, but are smart enough to know not to attack unless the advantage is theirs. The Cardassians are proud, stubborn, paranoid, and need to have control. While the Federation seems to be an idealisation of humanity. What we all wish we could be. Strong, intelligent, calm, looking out for what's best even at great personal sacrifice, etc. Everything quintesentially 'heroic'. The good guy, basically.

Personally, I love Star Trek. I find it interesting, exciting, entertaining, imaginative and thought-provoking. If you like sci-fi, Star Trek is the best there is. And then, once you've seen Star Trek, move on to Battlestar Galactica (the re-imagined series is very very good, especially if you liked Firefly).

My apologies for this over-the-top and highly unnecessary post.

Ah, ok.

For original series:
The City on the Edge of Forever
The Doomsday Machine
The Trouble with Tribbles
Mirror Mirror
The Ultimate Computer

I'd also recommend:
The Devil in the Dark
Journey to Babel
and The Enemy Within.
you forgot seeds. Khan (sorry: "KHHHHHAAAANNNN!") first appearance.

Trouble with Tribbles: Best one by far!
What was the one where Kirk and Spock fight? Dat un was a good un.

Here's how I sum up Star Trek for me personally...

TOS was good. I'm still watching it though. It's quite difficult to watch, mainly for cultural reasons.
what cultural reasons?
If anything, Star Trek the original was extremely advanced, not just for it's age but even now.
Think about how the 1960's were
They had a black woman as a lieutenant - this just one year after the Voters Right Act was signed into law, allowing Blacks to vote. Racism, esp down South was still rampant. So the idea that a woman, let alone a black woman (who had the shotest dress possible, which was always a bonus) in a fairly major role was pretty extraordinary and brave of Roddenberry. Kirk and Uhuru even kissed in one episode, which quite possibly the first interracial kiss on American TV.
They had a Japanese in a significant minor role. Barely 20 years after WWII, Pearl Harbor was less than a generation ago, they have a Japanese at times taking over the command of the ship! Again, very brave and far-sighted of Roddenberry. In context, Bruce Lee was turned down for the role in Kung Fu mostly because the studio was worried the USA wouldn't watch a show with an Asian actor.
They had a Russian in a significant minor role. This at the height of the cold war and a TV show is showing that 300 years from now all will be forgotten. At a time where Russians were being demonised and hated, Star Trek was showing one working right along side Americans, with nothing mentioned about his background: only his work is what matters.

So, not even for it's time, but even now it was a ground-breaking show. In example, how many mainstream US TV shows on right now show a Muslim or Arab in a positive role?

you forgot seeds. Khan (sorry: "KHHHHHAAAANNNN!") first appearance.
Sorry, while Space Seeds is GOOD and it DOES set you up for STII:TWoK, I don't consider it to be one of the eps I would recommend to someone who was trying to get a nice broad overview for the best of Trek. Once you're into the series, yes, it's a do not miss. But for a first time viewer, it doesn't really bring up much of anything beyond watching Kirk and Khan chew up the scenery.

Trouble with Tribbles: Best one by far!
As comedy, yes. Overall... I have to give that one to the City on the Edge of Forever.

What was the one where Kirk and Spock fight? Dat un was a good un.
Amok Time is probably the one you're thinking of.

what cultural reasons?
If anything, Star Trek the original was extremely advanced, not just for it's age but even now.
Think about how the 1960's were
They had a black woman as a lieutenant - this just one year after the Voters Right Act was signed into law, allowing Blacks to vote. Racism, esp down South was still rampant. So the idea that a woman, let alone a black woman (who had the shotest dress possible, which was always a bonus) in a fairly major role was pretty extraordinary and brave of Roddenberry. Kirk and Uhuru even kissed in one episode, which quite possibly the first interracial kiss on American TV.
They had a Japanese in a significant minor role. Barely 20 years after WWII, Pearl Harbor was less than a generation ago, they have a Japanese at times taking over the command of the ship! Again, very brave and far-sighted of Roddenberry. In context, Bruce Lee was turned down for the role in Kung Fu mostly because the studio was worried the USA wouldn't watch a show with an Asian actor.
They had a Russian in a significant minor role. This at the height of the cold war and a TV show is showing that 300 years from now all will be forgotten. At a time where Russians were being demonised and hated, Star Trek was showing one working right along side Americans, with nothing mentioned about his background: only his work is what matters.

So, not even for it's time, but even now it was a ground-breaking show. In example, how many mainstream US TV shows on right now show a Muslim or Arab in a positive role?

You seem to have missed what I meant, or I failed to convey what I meant.

The show is... slower, more detailed, and more cliche. I wasn't talking about Star Trek from the 60's in particular, but more, shows of that era being hard for me to watch, due to the fimling styles of shows of that era. I find that I need to pay more attention to what's going on in the show, or else I miss things, moreso than with more modern shows. This isn't a bad thing, but, like I said, I really have to sit down and watch the show to enjoy it. Whereas I can just be watching TNG or DS9 in the background while doing other things.

Also, Kirk's and Uhura's kiss was the first interracial kiss on tv in the US. ^^

ah. I get you now. When you said 'cultural reasons' I thought you were referring to the times it was filmed in. Most mid-1960s shows were quite heavily sexist and/or racist by our standards. Sometimes too much so to make them worth watching nowadays. I can usually ignore most as just a 'sign of the times' but some...nah. ST wasn't like that at all, which is part of the reason what makes it so watchable.

And technically speaking, it wasn't the first interracial kiss:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_Stepchildren

NERVUN:
Elaan of Troyius, The Naked Time, The Menagerie and I, Mudd are another great original ST episodes.
I grudgingly accept you're correct about space seeds. There's subtly there - Khan is a mirror-image of Kirk, but only moreso, which makes the interaction between the two so interesting. Also that, despite Khan being a tyrant, they're impressed with him (much to Spock's bewilderment). A firsttime trekkie prob wouldn't see those subtleties.
Abd yes, I was thinking about Amok Time.
City on the edge of Forever: that was the one written by Harlan Ellison wasn't it? Definitely the best.

Final Frontier is one of my personal favourites, mainly because I like when the Klingon's shoot God. And of course, the line "what does God need with a starship?". Some Star Trek fans don't consider this movie canon, since it contradicts a few things in the show.

No less an authority than Gene Roddenberry considered Final Frontier to be "apocryphal at best."

No less an authority than Gene Roddenberry considered Final Frontier to be "apocryphal at best."

I did read that somewhere. But then, if you want to get picky, a number of episodes in TOS contradict canon. I could probably post a few links into the exploration of it, but that might be a little too nerdy for the likes of this forum.

I did read that somewhere. But then, if you want to get picky, a number of episodes in TOS contradict canon. I could probably post a few links into the exploration of it, but that might be a little too nerdy for the likes of this forum.

A bunch of the early TOS episodes contradict canon because the canon hadn't really been established. But those are minor and niggling inconsistencies, like calling the Federation "United Earth" such-and-such. Nothing so drastic as to make the creator of the franchise disown them, you know? :)

A bunch of the early TOS episodes contradict canon because the canon hadn't really been established. But those are minor and niggling inconsistencies, like calling the Federation "United Earth" such-and-such. Nothing so drastic as to make the creator of the franchise disown them, you know? :)

I'll agree to that. Though I don't think he really 'disowned' the movie. He just said he didn't consider it canon. But if you want to get really nitpicky about canon, there are a good few TNG episodes that go against canon too.

Being of the NCC Geezer class, ive seen every episode of Star trek up to Enterprise(which for some reason wasnt televised in my area at the time it was new and never bothered to catch the old episodes)

My fav series was TNG and i also dont remember episode titles to save my life.

Two of my favorite episodes of TNG i havnt seen mentioned yet. One was where Picard discovered a sattelite floating in space that made him relive an entire lifetime of a member of a long dead race in a matter of a few minutes so the dead race could still share the story of their existence. Incredible.

The second and one of my top 5 fav episodes of all time may have been called Darmak and Gilad but its just a guess. Picard is trapped on a planet with an alien and the language translators dont work and Picard spends the entire episode trying to learn how the alien, who doesnt use words in a normal sence, speaks. It was an incredible episode that didnt involve ships shooting at each other to be compelling.

Those would be The Inner Light and Darmok, respectively. I'd forgotten about Darmok; a bit kitschy, but it is great that they spend an entire episode focusing on how two people understand one another. And Picard's monologue about Gilgamesh is hypnotic.

Sokath, his eyes unveiled!

you forgot seeds. Khan (sorry: "KHHHHHAAAANNNN!") first appearance.

Trouble with Tribbles: Best one by far!
What was the one where Kirk and Spock fight? Dat un was a good un.
Space Seed also points out a glaring mistake in ST:TWoK. Khan says "You... I remember." to Checkov. yet he wasn't part of the cast then. :tongue:

oh and the episode where Kirk and Spock fight? Amok Time I believe

Sure am!
OK, what is your candidate for ABSOLUTE WORST Trek episode?
TOS... hmmm... I would say... Turnabout Intruder... not because it was bad, but not as good as the others.

TNG, DS9, Voy, and ENT I didn't watch enough of to get an opinon of best or worst.

A bunch of the early TOS episodes contradict canon because the canon hadn't really been established. But those are minor and niggling inconsistencies, like calling the Federation "United Earth" such-and-such. Nothing so drastic as to make the creator of the franchise disown them, you know? :) what is canon changes so often it's practically a joke.

They had a black woman as a lieutenant - this just one year after the Voters Right Act was signed into law, allowing Blacks to vote. Racism, esp down South was still rampant. So the idea that a woman, let alone a black woman (who had the shotest dress possible, which was always a bonus) in a fairly major role was pretty extraordinary and brave of Roddenberry. Kirk and Uhuru even kissed in one episode, which quite possibly the first interracial kiss on American TV.
They had a Japanese in a significant minor role. Barely 20 years after WWII, Pearl Harbor was less than a generation ago, they have a Japanese at times taking over the command of the ship! Again, very brave and far-sighted of Roddenberry. In context, Bruce Lee was turned down for the role in Kung Fu mostly because the studio was worried the USA wouldn't watch a show with an Asian actor.
They had a Russian in a significant minor role. This at the height of the cold war and a TV show is showing that 300 years from now all will be forgotten. At a time where Russians were being demonised and hated, Star Trek was showing one working right along side Americans, with nothing mentioned about his background: only his work is what matters.

So, not even for it's time, but even now it was a ground-breaking show. In example, how many mainstream US TV shows on right now show a Muslim or Arab in a positive role?

You also forgot the Menagerie (redone as the two parter The Cage) where they show a woman being the Second in Command.

And I would refute the Kung Fu point because Black Belt Theatre as well as alot of Shaw Brothers films were being shown.

TOS: Spock's Brain. I mean, come on! Beautiful alien girls steal Spock's brain and then Dr. McCoy turns him into a remote controlled Vulcan?




that episode was so bad it almost seemed like self parody... though i', fairly sure it wasn't

Sokath, his eyes unveiled!

Darmok and Gilad at Tinagra, with arms open.

Shaka when the walls fell.

So, not even for it's time, but even now it was a ground-breaking show. In example, how many mainstream US TV shows on right now show a Muslim or Arab in a positive role?

DS9. Right?

(Bashir)

DS9. Right?

(Bashir)
Also

NCIS the character of Ziva is former Mossad.

Those would be The Inner Light and Darmok, respectively. I'd forgotten about Darmok; a bit kitschy, but it is great that they spend an entire episode focusing on how two people understand one another. And Picard's monologue about Gilgamesh is hypnotic.

Sokath, his eyes unveiled!

One of the absolute greats. The idea that - even when you can read (hear) each other's words, there's more to the exchange than the words themselves... genius. Definitely one of my very favourite episodes.

Also

NCIS the character of Ziva is former Mossad.


Silly, there's only one character in NCIS.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1482/18661649eg4fx1.jpg

Silly, there's only one character in NCIS.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1482/18661649eg4fx1.jpg

there are lots of characters on NCIS... she's just the star. :cool:

TNG, DS9, Voy, and ENT I didn't watch enough of to get an opinon of best or worst.


Well, almost any Borg episode in Voyager...

And anything in Next Gen with more than a few seconds of screen time for either Riker or Ensign Crusher is probably going to be crap.

there are lots of characters on NCIS... she's just the star. :cool:

Really? I spent half this week watching the NCIS marathon, and I can't recall a single other person...

Really? I spent half this week watching the NCIS marathon, and I can't recall a single other person...

hence why she's the star.

TOS... hmmm... I would say... Turnabout Intruder... not because it was bad, but not as good as the others.

Which one was that?

Which one was that?

this is it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnabout_Intruder)

Thanks. Apparently that is one that I have never seen.

Relics was one of my favourite TNG episodes. Dyson spheres interest me quite a bit.

The first episode of Star Trek I ever saw, which impressed me a lot at the time, was on a desert planet with only one couple living on it; the wife looks different to everyone who looks at her, always appearing as that man's ideal, although the crew doesn't catch onto this at first. Various "Ensign Gomez" characters wander off and are attacked by a monster that sticks suckers on their face and, as Dr. McCoy discovers, drains every molecule of salt from their bodies. Naturally, the salt-sucker monster turns out to be the shape-shifter who is also their beautiful hostess.

I have never seen this episode since. Probably just as well, since I wouldn't be as impressed as when I was eleven.

Red Dwarf did it better.

*runs*

Voyager isn't that bad, actually. Robert Picardo as the holographic doctor tends to steal the good shows. And sure, you can say that Neelix is an annoying character, but the fact that the other characters (esp. the doctor and Tuvok) agree makes them better by comparison!

Tuvok by the way, is just about the worst Vulcan ever. His logic is always *wrong*, he has some Vulcan genetic freakout every five episodes, and whenever he tries to be Spock-esque, cryptic, ambiguous or aloof he fails miserably.

Chakotay, as the sole representative of Native Americans, tends to stick out like a sore thumb and is just as easily missed. Really, the whole "my people" shtick loses any credibility it might have had by the 24th century when the only Native American thing about you is a tattoo you got on a dare in JV.

Come to think of it, it was pretty bad.

Voyager isn't that bad, actually. Robert Picardo as the holographic doctor tends to steal the good shows. And sure, you can say that Neelix is an annoying character, but the fact that the other characters (esp. the doctor and Tuvok) agree makes them better by comparison!

Tuvok by the way, is just about the worst Vulcan ever. His logic is always *wrong*, he has some Vulcan genetic freakout every five episodes, and whenever he tries to be Spock-esque, cryptic, ambiguous or aloof he fails miserably.

Chakotay, as the sole representative of Native Americans, tends to stick out like a sore thumb and is just as easily missed. Really, the whole "my people" shtick loses any credibility it might have had by the 24th century when the only Native American thing about you is a tattoo you got on a dare in JV.

Come to think of it, it was pretty bad.

Voyager had the best chance for it's fair share of 'firsts'.

like...
1) Destroying the ship completely and getting a totally new ship with alien technology.
2) Gaining civilizations interested in their 'Federation' and thus collecting a group of Ambassadors and crew members and having them work together
3) Introducting vast new Empires instead of rehashing an old one (Borg)
4) Stressing the effects of Isolation from the Federation (How many Torpedoes were they SUPPOSED to have?)

Voyager had the best chance for it's fair share of 'firsts'.

like...
1) Destroying the ship completely and getting a totally new ship with alien technology.
2) Gaining civilizations interested in their 'Federation' and thus collecting a group of Ambassadors and crew members and having them work together
3) Introducting vast new Empires instead of rehashing an old one (Borg)
4) Stressing the effects of Isolation from the Federation (How many Torpedoes were they SUPPOSED to have?)

Shame the Voyager writers were such phenomenal idiots.

Voyager did too many "oh hey, a way for us to get home...psyche!" episodes.

Shame the Voyager writers were such phenomenal idiots.
agreed!

Voyager did too many "oh hey, a way for us to get home...psyche!" episodes.
and waaaay to many "oh noes, our ship is gone... nope, there it is." Episodes

Voyager did too many "oh hey, a way for us to get home...psyche!" episodes.

It was a modern Gilligan's Island. Except they apparently didn't realize that modern audiences would Just Eat Gilligan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustEatGilligan). After they realized Janeway's pigheaded stupidity wouldn't keep the audience going they moved onto having negative space wedgies as their weekly gimmick.

http://www.treknation.com/articles/court_martial_janeway_intro.shtml

It was a modern Gilligan's Island. Except they apparently didn't realize that modern audiences would Just Eat Gilligan (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustEatGilligan). After they realized Janeway's pigheaded stupidity wouldn't keep the audience going they moved onto having negative space wedgies as their weekly gimmick.

http://www.treknation.com/articles/court_martial_janeway_intro.shtml

she'll get a "slap on the wrist" and reassigned to fly a desk (made to an Admiral) because there's only the word of her crew (most would probably be former Marquee and thus unreliable witnesses)

the one thing the prosecution would be lacking would be witness testimony. because the only denizen of the delta quadrant would be Neelix (Seven of Nine is orginally from earth and who knows what effects Borg Implants would have) and she was nice to him.

Entirely unrelated, but does anyone else think that Voyager missed a huge opportunity in not having Robert Duncan McNeill play Nick Locarno? I mean, they hired the same actor to play a virtually identical role, why not just go for the TNG tie-in and name him Nick Locarno?

"Sulu" to marry tomorrow (video interview with George Takei here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-gregory/to-boldly-go-where-no-cal_b_124701.html))

Entirely unrelated, but does anyone else think that Voyager missed a huge opportunity in not having Robert Duncan McNeill play Nick Locarno? I mean, they hired the same actor to play a virtually identical role, why not just go for the TNG tie-in and name him Nick Locarno?

he commented on that.

"they wanted a character like nick. they told [me] that they were looking for an actor to play a character like nick but had a hard time finding one... and all that time I was staring at them thinking... "I'm right here!""

Entirely unrelated, but does anyone else think that Voyager missed a huge opportunity in not having Robert Duncan McNeill play Nick Locarno? I mean, they hired the same actor to play a virtually identical role, why not just go for the TNG tie-in and name him Nick Locarno?

I remember reading somewhere that they thought Locarno's character and his behavior was just a bit too irredeemable.

I remember reading somewhere that they thought Locarno's character and his behavior was just a bit too irredeemable.

Maybe, but then don't you think it's silly to cast the same actor in a carbon copy of a role?

I remember reading somewhere that they thought Locarno's character and his behavior was just a bit too irredeemable.

which showed the shortsightedness of the writers... why did Janeway want Paris? because he was once a member of the Marqess. why couldn't they have Nick in the same posistion and actually show his character going from an Irredeemable loss to one of the ships better crewmen?

Well, I started watching it. To acquaint myself, now went with TOS.
First impressions: It seems REALLY cheap, somewhere a bit above good amateur production. Even in HD, or particularly in HD, sets look like ones in a theater, made overnight before the play. I know it's 1960s, but still they made better sets even in the 50s.

On the plus side, I like some of the ideas in the show, particularly compared to other series. For instance, having a young guy for a captain, thus allowing for actual character interaction, as opposed to an all-knowing old dude, solidifying the chain of command.

I also like the uniform design. The uniforms look like something that would actually be worn on a starship. Much better than the fancy TNG catsuits, not even to mention the terrible costume show from DS9 - could as well wear white leisure suits there. Actually, thinking of it, would much better wear leisure suits, they look more modern.




However, outright I don't get some things...

First, if the ship is on a five-year mission, and a creature aboard the ship killing men and officers is so routine that nobody even seems to care until it kills the third, where do they get their "red shirts" crew resupply? Something along the lines of the "reinforcements" button in Panzer General, with trained crew replacements beamed in from Earth?

Second, in Man Trap, why is there even a moral dilemma about killing or not killing the last-of-its-kind creature? It seems an absolutely obvious solution to keep it in containment, feed regularly with salt (a chest of salt lasted it two years), and keep until studying on Earth. Particularly not even obvious, but, seeing as it's a research mission, the whole point. Is it an attempt at raising deep existential questions, or am I missing some reason they couldn't do it?

First impressions: It seems REALLY cheap, somewhere a bit above good amateur production. Even in HD, or particularly in HD, sets look like ones in a theater, made overnight before the play. I know it's 1960s, but still they made better sets even in the 50s. not much better.

On the plus side, I like some of the ideas in the show, particularly compared to other series. For instance, having a young guy for a captain, thus allowing for actual character interaction, as opposed to an all-knowing old dude . TBH, Kirk is, supposidly, the youngest captain.
I also like the uniform design. The uniforms look like something that would actually be worn on a starship. Much better than the fancy TNG catsuits, not even to mention the terrible costume show from DS9 - could as well wear white leisure suits there. Actually, would much better wear leisure suits, wouldn't look as silly. Agreed. I hate the Unitards.

However, outright I don't get some things... I'll help.

First, if the ship is on a five-year mission, and a creature aboard the ship killing men and officers is so routine that nobody even seems to care until it kills the third, where do they get their "red shirts" crew resupply? Something along the lines of the "reinforcements" button in Panzer General, with trained crew replacements beamed in from Earth? Deep Space Stations, Transports, Colonies, casting calls (kidding)... some of the missions you'll see include transporting personnel from one area to another. so it's not unthinkable that they would get additional personel the same way.

Second, in Man Trap, why is there even a moral dilemma about killing or not killing the last-of-its-kind creature? It seems an absolutely obvious solution to keep it in containment, feed regularly with salt (a chest of salt lasted it two years), and keep until studying on Earth. Particularly not even obvious, but, seeing as it's a research mission, the whole point. Is it an attempt at raising deep existential questions, or am I missing some reason they couldn't do it? some animals won't touch dead meat. others won't touch anything but dead meat. they didn't know if the manner of feeding is important. is there some chemical other than the salt that is extracted. also you have various forms of salt. not just sodium. those are just some things I can think of at the top of my head.

then there is the question. if a creature is feeding off of you (and your species) should it be spared because it's the last of it's kind?

remember, this creature can alter it's appearance to appear like anyone. so the chances of it getting out is high and the chances of tracking it difficult.

Maybe, but then don't you think it's silly to cast the same actor in a carbon copy of a role?

Not the only character they (sorta) did this with. The actor who played Tuvok also played a vulcan, albeit, a mercenary one, in the TNG episode "Starship Mine"

TBH, Kirk is, supposedly, the youngest captain.
And that's a very good idea.
BTW, reminds me of how Giles left repeatedly in BtVS, for the same reason, remove the chain-of-command clarity.


Deep Space Stations, Transports, Colonies, casting calls (kidding)... some of the missions you'll see include transporting personnel from one area to another. so it's not unthinkable that they would get additional personel the same way.
I see. Thought they were on a deep space mission at first.


some animals won't touch dead meat. others won't touch anything but dead meat. they didn't know if the manner of feeding is important. is there some chemical other than the salt that is extracted. also you have various forms of salt. not just sodium. those are just some things I can think of at the top of my head.
It's been living for 2 years or more feeding on salt tablets. So the manner isn't important.


remember, this creature can alter it's shape to appear like anyone. so the chances of it getting out is high and the chances of tracking it difficult.
Seeing as the technology they've got is quite advanced, they should be able to track it after a bit of study, or can implant a device. After all, they don't have to keep it for 5 years. Plus once the crew is aware, and seeing as there is some discipline, it shouldn't be hard to keep sufficient isolation.
There were such issues played around in Torchwood, but there all characters act like amateurs, if not even adolescents.

First, if the ship is on a five-year mission, and a creature aboard the ship killing men and officers is so routine that nobody even seems to care until it kills the third, where do they get their "red shirts" crew resupply? Something along the lines of the "reinforcements" button in Panzer General, with trained crew replacements beamed in from Earth?


You don't see much of it, but the ship is supposed to be pretty big. They make a big deal in Voyager about how it 'only' carries about a hundred.

Even if there were no re-supply points, even if they don't break their outward bound straight-on-till-morning agenda, you could probably lose Redshirts for quite a while. :)

You don't see much of it, but the ship is supposed to be pretty big. They make a big deal in Voyager about how it 'only' carries about a hundred.

Even if there were no re-supply points, even if they don't break their outward bound straight-on-till-morning agenda, you could probably lose Redshirts for quite a while. :)

Funny thing is that Voyager didn't re-use extras. So by all appearances they had as many crew as the Enterprise (1701-D). For comparison Simpsons has over 100 named characters. Seven years is plenty of time to build up even minor folks. Look at DS9, 36 recurring characters, plus 10 "main" characters. Voyager had 10 main characters, and about 20 lesser characters that put in more than one show.

You don't see much of it, but the ship is supposed to be pretty big. They make a big deal in Voyager about how it 'only' carries about a hundred.
Well, it's pretty small in TOS, at least... And a hundred is not many. Even if half the crew is just damage control, it will only take half a season to be left with a skeleton crew at this rate.

Well, it's pretty small in TOS, at least... And a hundred is not many. Even if half the crew is just damage control, it will only take half a season to be left with a skeleton crew at this rate.

TOS was more like 400-500, I think. And they did periodically stop at bases. It wasn't five years with no contact with Star Fleet.

TOS was more like 400-500, I think. And they did periodically stop at bases. It wasn't five years with no contact with Star Fleet.
It says explicitly in the 0x00 that there are 203 people aboard - that's with a few civilian passengers visible in an early scene.

Well, it's pretty small in TOS, at least... And a hundred is not many. Even if half the crew is just damage control, it will only take half a season to be left with a skeleton crew at this rate.
Not true. The crew was 430, only 59 red shirts actually died during the 3 seasons it was on air. They weren't even near running out of people.

It says explicitly in the 0x00 that there are 203 people aboard - that's with a few civilian passengers visible in an early scene.

It also explicitely says in a different episode that their were 400 or more on board. The one with the woman who turns into a giant cat.:tongue:

Not true. The crew was 430, only 59 red shirts actually died during the 3 seasons it was on air. They weren't even near running out of people.

And wasn't the Enterprise the first ship to complete a 5 year mission reasonably intact?

And wasn't the Enterprise the first ship to complete a 5 year mission reasonably intact?

I thought so. I was recounting and I think I accidentally miscounted, it's either 58 or 59, I can't remember if one person died or just got badly injured.

It also explicitely says in a different episode that their were 400 or more on board. The one with the woman who turns into a giant cat.:tongue:
I guess it's the part where we remember that TOS lacks continuity, and in each episode the ship has exactly as large a crew as convenient this exact moment.

I guess it's the part where we remember that TOS lacks continuity, and in each episode the ship has exactly as large a crew as convenient this exact moment.

Or they took on extra personel for certain missions. Its not like they had no contact with home base for 5 years. Its not Voyager, damn it!

I guess it's the part where we remember that TOS lacks continuity, and in each episode the ship has exactly as large a crew as convenient this exact moment.

The standard crew compliment for a constitution class heavy cruiser was over 400. I can look it up specifically in my book later. I have the schematics and all. Nicely built ships.

It says explicitly in the 0x00 that there are 203 people aboard - that's with a few civilian passengers visible in an early scene.
That was under Captain Pike, Enterprise was refitted (I.e. The filmed another pilot) and had a crew compliment of 430 throughout the original series.

And wasn't the Enterprise the first ship to complete a 5 year mission reasonably intact?
According to fandom, yes. As to actual canon... we don't know. However, Enterprise's 5 year mission was suitably famous enough for her ship patch to be adopted as the symbol for Starfleet in general afterwards.

That was under Captain Pike, Enterprise was refitted (I.e. The filmed another pilot) and had a crew compliment of 430 throughout the original series.

Ah, I forgot about that. :p My Trekkie is slipping in my old age.

The standard crew compliment for a constitution class heavy cruiser was over 400. I can look it up specifically in my book later. I have the schematics and all. Nicely built ships.

Indeed. Those ships could take a beating. Compare the damage in The Wrath of Kahn to the times, the many times, that Picard's Enterprise nearly was destroyed by a warp coar breach due to comparatively minor damage. The Enterprise under Kirk limped home under its own power.

The design flaw seems to have been rectified in later moddles, however. Both the Enterprise E in Nemisis and Voyager in Year of Hell took similar or worse poundings and survived.

Indeed. Those ships could take a beating. Compare the damage in The Wrath of Kahn to the times, the many times, that Picard's Enterprise nearly was destroyed by a warp coar breach due to comparatively minor damage. The Enterprise under Kirk limped home under its own power.

The design flaw seems to have been rectified in later moddles, however. Both the Enterprise E in Nemisis and Voyager in Year of Hell took similar or worse poundings and survived.

Enterprise D had some issues. :tongue: Lots and lots of them.

Enterprise D had some issues. :tongue: Lots and lots of them.

I'm not the first one to point out the stupidity of combining a cruise ship, science ship, diplomatic vessel, and warship into one package. I can provide pleanty of links to others who agree that the Enterprise D was terribly designed.

At least Picard opposed having children aboard a military flagship.:headbang:

The design flaw seems to have been rectified in later moddles, however. Both the Enterprise E in Nemisis and Voyager in Year of Hell took similar or worse poundings and survived.

Not to mention Defiant. ;)

Not true. The crew was 430, only 59 red shirts actually died during the 3 seasons it was on air. They weren't even near running out of people.
actually that was only 59ish that they showed died. some of the battles may have produced uncounted dead.

And wasn't the Enterprise the first ship to complete a 5 year mission reasonably intact?I believe it was the ONLY ship to complete it's 5 year mission. hence it was refitted and made into the new "Enterprise Class" starship (the movies)

Enterprise D had some issues. :tongue: Lots and lots of them.
I'm glad I 'm not the only one that hated that ship.

I'm not the first one to point out the stupidity of combining a cruise ship, science ship, diplomatic vessel, and warship into one package. I can provide pleanty of links to others who agree that the Enterprise D was terribly designed.

At least Picard opposed having children aboard a military flagship.:headbang:

to be fair, as a FLAGSHIP, diplomatic missions would be it's primary mission spec. I could see more amenities giving it a cruise ship feel to it.
Science and military were always combined. even during TOS. alot of the missions were scientific in nature.

however, having civilians on board... :rolleyes:

to be fair, as a FLAGSHIP, diplomatic missions would be it's primary mission spec. I could see more amenities giving it a cruise ship feel to it.
Science and military were always combined. even during TOS. alot of the missions were scientific in nature.

however, having civilians on board... :rolleyes: but is starfleet exactly a military organization in the present sense... it has military aspects and engages in miltary actions, but i'm not sure any of the enterprises were primarily military craft.

Not to mention Defiant. ;)

That ship was kick ass.

Also Junii, I was only counting the ones I could remember, battles with hull breaches and random dead...didn't count them. I need to try to remember when hull breaches occurred and how many casualties were reported.

but is starfleet exactly a military organization in the present sense... it has military aspects and engages in miltary actions, but i'm not sure any of the enterprises were primarily military craft.
it's not. but because they should be exploring the 'unknown'. where, according to the NCC-1701 and other consitution class ships, dangerous situations are real, having civilians who seem to serve no real purpose other than serving other civilians (teachers and children) puts unnecessary risk.

That ship was kick ass. that's what you get when Klingon, Romulan and Federation work together. yet for a ship that was supposidly designed to fight the Borg...

Also Junii, I was only counting the ones I could remember, battles with hull breaches and random dead...didn't count them. I need to try to remember when hull breaches occurred and how many casualties were reported.they rarely did report casualties. I know Uhura only stated "Casulaties reported on deck #" or Doc McCoy would say "we're busy down here Jim" or some such.

I'm not the first one to point out the stupidity of combining a cruise ship, science ship, diplomatic vessel, and warship into one package. I can provide pleanty of links to others who agree that the Enterprise D was terribly designed.

At least Picard opposed having children aboard a military flagship.:headbang:

The Galaxy-class starship is, has been, and always will be the best looking Star Trek ship. Period.

But yeah, there were some bad ideas. Sure, the Federation is extremely idealistic, but civilians were a bad idea, even if Starfleet's more of a quasi-science-military organization rather than a true military in the current sense of the word.

(Which I honestly don't understand. I admire Gene Roddenberry's ideals, but he was far too optimistic. You can be tolerant, accepting, and all the good things about Trek without being hopelessly naive, foolish, and complete and total military morons.)

The Galaxy-class starship is, has been, and always will be the best looking Star Trek ship. Period.

But yeah, there were some bad ideas. Sure, the Federation is extremely idealistic, but civilians were a bad idea, even if Starfleet's more of a quasi-science-military organization rather than a true military in the current sense of the word.

(Which I honestly don't understand. I admire Gene Roddenberry's ideals, but he was far too optimistic. You can be tolerant, accepting, and all the good things about Trek without being hopelessly naive, foolish, and complete and total military morons.)

Star Trek was always extremely luddite in it's tech also. Their computers you have to type on, there's no ship AI, no AI anywhere outside of Data or a hologram someone leaves running too long.

Star Trek was always extremely luddite in it's tech also. Their computers you have to type on, there's no ship AI, no AI anywhere outside of Data or a hologram someone leaves running too long.

ultimate computer explored the idea of AI and why the Federation doesn't have it.

and typing is a private / secretive way to access the computer. can you imagine WoK if Kirk had to say aloud "computer access Reliant records and call up command prefix codes"?

The Galaxy-class starship is, has been, and always will be the best looking Star Trek ship. Period.

But yeah, there were some bad ideas. Sure, the Federation is extremely idealistic, but civilians were a bad idea, even if Starfleet's more of a quasi-science-military organization rather than a true military in the current sense of the word.

(Which I honestly don't understand. I admire Gene Roddenberry's ideals, but he was far too optimistic. You can be tolerant, accepting, and all the good things about Trek without being hopelessly naive, foolish, and complete and total military morons.)

I probably prefer the Soveriegh, Intrepid, or Excelsior/Constitution for looks.

For the best combat design, I'd say Akira class. Not the best known, but it combines the roles of carrier and long-range bombardment. It has a lot of topedos and fighters.

it's not. but because they should be exploring the 'unknown'. where, according to the NCC-1701 and other consitution class ships, dangerous situations are real, having civilians who seem to serve no real purpose other than serving other civilians (teachers and children) puts unnecessary risk.
The difference being that TOS was dealing with an unsettled galaxy whereas Next Gen had a much more civilized and less dangerous (Well, until the Borg) one. That said, even the producers for Star Trek, on talking about the Enterprise-E, noted that the whole notion of families aboard the ship as being a bad idea.

I do like the Galaxy class design though, it's eloquent and has a lot on board that makes sense for a ship that would be out there for years.

That said, I like the refit-Constitution class for looks alone. I know its not fair to compare ships designed on a TV budget against one for movies, but the refit always looked beautiful.

The design flaw seems to have been rectified in later moddles, however. Both the Enterprise E in Nemisis and Voyager in Year of Hell took similar or worse poundings and survived.

Captain we are losing touch with reality, activate the tractor beams! What im sure you meant wasnt that they corrected design flaws, it was that they changed the script.

Captain we are losing touch with reality, activate the tractor beams! What im sure you meant wasnt that they corrected design flaws, it was that they changed the script.

In universe explanation would be improved design. Real life explanation is probably that the writers pulled their heads out of where ever the hell they put them.

OK, so I've seen a few this far...


The Original Series isn't as bad as I thought. It has good design, and, so far, seems to have the best character set. The only issue is that it's slow, not enough events, and too monotonous.
But City on the Edge of Forever was excellent. Much better than its Torchwood equivalent. I know it's perhaps the best one... still, hope there are others like it.

TNG starts out with a good story, and it's clearly more modern, I don't have to force myself to watch it. Still, not as interesting with backgrounds.

DS9, didn't really watch much - AUIU I should start and watch it through if I want, not the thing for me now.

So Voyager and Enterprise... Voyager events is the last chronologically, so screw it; but Enterprise seem to be the earliest. Is it really that terrible, or everyone has refused to watch it altogether on the assumption/hearsay?
If you've seen it, are there at least any episodes out of its badness that are less bad, or have some redeeming qualities? Wondering about the "prehistory", in particular, that might be shown there.

Enterprise just didn't seem quite like Star Trek. I watched like the first season or two. The episodes themselves weren't too bad, but not too good either. Really just meh.

And the opening theme song? Yeah. Shoot me in the face.

Enterprise also did way too much time travel. Yawnorama.

So Voyager and Enterprise... Voyager events is the last chronologically, so screw it; but Enterprise seem to be the earliest. Is it really that terrible, or everyone has refused to watch it altogether on the assumption/hearsay?
If you've seen it, are there at least any episodes out of its badness that are less bad, or have some redeeming qualities? Wondering about the "prehistory", in particular, that might be shown there.
I watched a bit of it, and one thing that turned me off to the series is stated in the FIRST episode.

That at warp 3, it would take three days to reach the Klingon Homeworld.

that's rather close isn't it? :tongue:

To me, Enterprise is there to correct all the scientific and storyline errors of TOS.

I watched a bit of it, and one thing that turned me off to the series is stated in the FIRST episode.

That at warp 3, it would take three days to reach the Klingon Homeworld.

that's rather close isn't it? :tongue:

To me, Enterprise is there to correct all the scientific and storyline errors of TOS.

http://www.agonybooth.com/recaps/Star_Trek/Enterprise/A_Night_in_Sickbay.aspx

All that needs to be said about Enterprise. There were other really really bad episodes, but that one stands out.

Enterprise just didn't seem quite like Star Trek. I watched like the first season or two.
Being "not Star Trek" doesn't bother me personally. I'm not a ST fan, and won't ever be.
[ Maybe it would be possible if I watched ST before Firefly, but now I'll always be able to remember that Firefly did it better. ]

BTW: I'm not asking for what is the worst in there.

I watched a bit of it, and one thing that turned me off to the series is stated in the FIRST episode.
That at warp 3, it would take three days to reach the Klingon Homeworld.
that's rather close isn't it? :tongue:
And warp 3 is slower than the TOS ship or something like that?

:rant: What happened to olde goode Sci-Fi, where space travel, at least, didn't take less time than real maritime travel on sailing ships... All this idea of space and spaceships is really only there to revoke the feeling of the Age of Discovery, so why turn it into a trip to Walmart?


To me, Enterprise is there to correct all the scientific and storyline errors of TOS.
Correct or collect?

And warp 3 is slower than the TOS ship or something like that? TOS had a max warp of 6 and TNG maxxed at 8 (tho the experts could probably correct me)

:rant: What happened to olde goode Sci-Fi, where space travel, at least, didn't take less time than real maritime travel on sailing ships... All this idea of space and spaceships is really only there to revoke the feeling of the Age of Discovery, so why turn it into a trip to Walmart? well, they created a holodeck in TNG and actually created an addiction to using it. an indication of how boring spacefight could be. :p

Correct or collect?... I really don't know... :D

Being "not Star Trek" doesn't bother me personally. I'm not a ST fan, and won't ever be.
[ Maybe it would be possible if I watched ST before Firefly, but now I'll always be able to remember that Firefly did it better. ]

BTW: I'm not asking for what is the worst in there.


And warp 3 is slower than the TOS ship or something like that?

:rant: What happened to olde goode Sci-Fi, where space travel, at least, didn't take less time than real maritime travel on sailing ships... All this idea of space and spaceships is really only there to revoke the feeling of the Age of Discovery, so why turn it into a trip to Walmart?



Correct or collect?

Well at some point they changed the speed scale between TOS and TNG. Though if you use the math given in an episode referring to how long it'd take from Jupiter and back Q'onoS is only 2.5 light years from Earth.

well, they created a holodeck in TNG and actually created an addiction to using it. an indication of how boring spacefight could be.
Of course it can... The point is rather knowing you can't make a run home today and back same night if you forgot your handbag or are out of redshirts.

Of course it can... The point is rather knowing you can't make a run home today and back same night if you forgot your handbag or are out of redshirts.

... what sci fi show implied otherwise?

granted Star Wars implied that the many hours trip from one planet to another can be done in the cramped cockpit of a fighter...

and Stargate was using a wormhole... a form of near instantanious teleportation.

and the fact that they could be systems away and arrive 'in the nick of time' to end a battle...

I think I just answered my own question there... :tongue:

... what sci fi show implied otherwise?
Well, in Firefly it was all the same system... but there still was some idea of "near" and "far". Even if it was more like long-haul trucking than navigation.


Then there are also sci-fi books, which often do imply otherwise.

My biggest problem with Trek is the inconsistency of the monetary system. Sometimes they used money, sometimes they didn't. The Federation was alternatively portrayed as one huge multi-system Socialist entity, where nobody used any money (or wanted to) and as a gigantic corporate entity that did business with other races, and appeared to provide some sort of stipend to Starfleet officers.

Dr. Taylor: "Don't tell me you don't use money in the future..."
Adm. Kirk: "We don't..."

Capt. Picard: "We are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things."

And yet frequently Starfleet personnel were known to buy and sell things using credits or latinum. Was there a black market that was commonly in use?

But then again... Maybe Picard was just being self-righteous and Kirk was trying to get out of paying for the pizza... He did, after all, have a few bucks from selling the antique glasses...

My biggest problem with Trek is the inconsistency of the monetary system. Sometimes they used money, sometimes they didn't. The Federation was alternatively portrayed as one huge multi-system Socialist entity, where nobody used any money (or wanted to) and as a gigantic corporate entity that did business with other races, and appeared to provide some sort of stipend to Starfleet officers.

Dr. Taylor: "Don't tell me you don't use money in the future..."
Adm. Kirk: "We don't..."

Capt. Picard: "We are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things."

And yet frequently Starfleet personnel were known to buy and sell things using credits or latinum. Was there a black market that was commonly in use?

But then again... Maybe Picard was just being self-righteous and Kirk was trying to get out of paying for the pizza... He did, after all, have a few bucks from selling the antique glasses...

Money was never really explored. you had traders in TOS like Mudd and others. Tibbles were sold (one was given to Uhura as a 'gift' which one can assume that normally they would be sold.)

then TNG came and the fearsome Ferengi were re written to be a race of merchants (they were originally supposed to be TNG's version of the Klingons.) suddenly money was needed so they 'invented' the Gold pressed latinum. putting lies to all of Picard's pompus claims of 'self improvement'. Kirk's "well, we don't" comment could be taken to mean "we don't use money that would be accepted in this time." which would be true.

and remember, that was a couple hundred split between 7 people or three teams.

EDIT: just remembered his earlier comment of "They still use money here" when they first are walking through SF... so Kirk really didn't have money.

Money was never really explored. you had traders in TOS like Mudd and others. Tibbles were sold (one was given to Uhura as a 'gift' which one can assume that normally they would be sold.)

then TNG came and the fearsome Ferengi were re written to be a race of merchants (they were originally supposed to be TNG's version of the Klingons.) suddenly money was needed so they 'invented' the Gold pressed latinum. putting lies to all of Picard's pompus claims of 'self improvement'. Kirk's "well, we don't" comment could be taken to mean "we don't use money that would be accepted in this time." which would be true.

and remember, that was a couple hundred split between 7 people or three teams.

To build on your Tribble example, IIRC we don't need to assume they'd be sold, we know they would. The bartender and the trader were haggling over the price, which was expressed in credits. Uhura could have purchased one (She inquired about the price) but the trader gave her one as a gift. Clearly, she had money.

My interpretation of Kirk's comment is still a general one, but I can see it your way too. That would certainly be more consistent.

To build on your Tribble example, IIRC we don't need to assume they'd be sold, we know they would. The bartender and the trader were haggling over the price, which was expressed in credits. Uhura could have purchased one (She inquired about the price) but the trader gave her one as a gift. Clearly, she had money.

My interpretation of Kirk's comment is still a general one, but I can see it your way too. That would certainly be more consistent.

Roddenberry tended to gloss over those type of details. for all we know, TOS money could've been nothing but electronic data. credits if you will. with such a non-physical representation of money, Picard's comment would also be valid since without the physical reminder of money to remind people, the focus of monetary gain could then be shifted to a lower priority.

OK, so I've seen a few this far...


The Original Series isn't as bad as I thought. It has good design, and, so far, seems to have the best character set. The only issue is that it's slow, not enough events, and too monotonous.
But City on the Edge of Forever was excellent. Much better than its Torchwood equivalent. I know it's perhaps the best one... still, hope there are others like it.

TNG starts out with a good story, and it's clearly more modern, I don't have to force myself to watch it. Still, not as interesting with backgrounds.

DS9, didn't really watch much - AUIU I should start and watch it through if I want, not the thing for me now.

So Voyager and Enterprise... Voyager events is the last chronologically, so screw it; but Enterprise seem to be the earliest. Is it really that terrible, or everyone has refused to watch it altogether on the assumption/hearsay?
If you've seen it, are there at least any episodes out of its badness that are less bad, or have some redeeming qualities? Wondering about the "prehistory", in particular, that might be shown there.

Probably the worst Enterprise episode was the one where Trip got pregnant (oh, and the last episode, which was a crossover with TNG, it was badly mishandled). The absolute best Enterprise episode, and the one that showed what great potential it had, was the two-parter in the mirror universide - I loved evil Hoshi. The rest were exercises in mediocrity.

Roddenberry tended to gloss over those type of details. for all we know, TOS money could've been nothing but electronic data. credits if you will. with such a non-physical representation of money, Picard's comment would also be valid since without the physical reminder of money to remind people, the focus of monetary gain could then be shifted to a lower priority.

I would assume it would be some sort of electronic media, especially considering we're almost to that point now. I rarely use cash for anything.

I definitely think Roddenberry was going for a money-free utopian society within the Federation. It wasn't until after his death that we really started to see the concept of money being more of a focus in the stories. Prior to that, we only saw it as an ancillary plot element, and only because most episodes were written by other sci-fi writers.

Remember, it was Gene Roddenberry who insisted, beyond all reasonable observation, that Starfleet was NOT a military organization. It was somehow a purely exploratory body (that just happened, by coincidence, to emulate the military in every conceivable fashion.) Definitely a utopian kinda guy.

I would assume it would be some sort of electronic media, especially considering we're almost to that point now. I rarely use cash for anything.

I definitely think Roddenberry was going for a money-free utopian society within the Federation. It wasn't until after his death that we really started to see the concept of money being more of a focus in the stories. Prior to that, we only saw it as an ancillary plot element, and only because most episodes were written by other sci-fi writers.

Remember, it was Gene Roddenberry who insisted, beyond all reasonable observation, that Starfleet was NOT a military organization. It was somehow a purely exploratory body (that just happened, by coincidence, to emulate the military in every conceivable fashion.) Definitely a utopian kinda guy.*nods*

Kingons were introduced at the station's request. they wanted an 'evil empire' to the Federation.

One RPG company lost their licence to produce Star Trek games when they introduced the concept of Federation Marines.

I would assume it would be some sort of electronic media, especially considering we're almost to that point now. I rarely use cash for anything.

I definitely think Roddenberry was going for a money-free utopian society within the Federation. It wasn't until after his death that we really started to see the concept of money being more of a focus in the stories. Prior to that, we only saw it as an ancillary plot element, and only because most episodes were written by other sci-fi writers.

Remember, it was Gene Roddenberry who insisted, beyond all reasonable observation, that Starfleet was NOT a military organization. It was somehow a purely exploratory body (that just happened, by coincidence, to emulate the military in every conceivable fashion.) Definitely a utopian kinda guy.

Well Gene had a bit of a drug habit. He's the one who greenlighted "Spock's Brain". Written I believe as a condemnation of how little he knew about the subject of science fiction.

I think the idea was that, idealistically, the Federation had evolved beyond the need for currency. So, officially, there was no such thing as money in the Federation or Starfleet, which is why the captains of Starfleet starships might say that they don't use money. One of the big aims for the DS9 writers was to sort of take some of the polish off the Federation and show that things weren't always as idealistic as they were portrayed in TOS and, especially, TNG. So, the utopian Federation might have evolved beyond the need for currency purely as policy, but back in the real world, people still used money for stuff.

TOS had a max warp of 6 and TNG maxxed at 8 (tho the experts could probably correct me)


Smunkee is the real expert I believe, but from what I remember of the tech specs, they recalibrated the whole 'Warp' scale between TOS and TNG, anyway. Maybe even earlier - Couldn't Excelsior hit 'Warp 10', according to the old scale?

Smunkee is the real expert I believe, but from what I remember of the tech specs, they recalibrated the whole 'Warp' scale between TOS and TNG, anyway. Maybe even earlier - Couldn't Excelsior hit 'Warp 10', according to the old scale?

that might've been with the transwarp system.

TOS had them hit warp 8 - 9 but that was after interference with some alien being and they couldn't sustain that speed.

same with TNG with warp 10...

but as I said, I'm no expert.

*nods*

Kingons were introduced at the station's request. they wanted an 'evil empire' to the Federation.

One RPG company lost their licence to produce Star Trek games when they introduced the concept of Federation Marines.

Which, IIRC were introduced later after Roddenberry's death.

Well Gene had a bit of a drug habit. He's the one who greenlighted "Spock's Brain". Written I believe as a condemnation of how little he knew about the subject of science fiction.

Roddenberry had a great concept and idea but his writing was... well not good. His interference is why the first Trek Movie was so weird, and the second was awesome because they forced him out of the creative process.

Smunkee is the real expert I believe, but from what I remember of the tech specs, they recalibrated the whole 'Warp' scale between TOS and TNG, anyway. Maybe even earlier - Couldn't Excelsior hit 'Warp 10', according to the old scale?

The original warp scale was n^2 x e where 'n' is the warp factor ordered by the captain, so Warp 1 is lightspeed, warp 2 is 4x lightspeed, and so on. Warp 8 was the mormal maximum velocity for a Federation Starship, although the Enterprise was once modified to go as fast as Warp 14 on its way to the Andromeda Galaxy.

In TNG It changed to n^3 x e through warp 9, at which point it became a log scale, such that Warp 9.1 is 10 times faster than Warp 9, etc. Warp 10 is theoretically impossible because it would represent infinite velocity, where the ship would simultaneously occupy all points in space.

Curiously, in the series finale the futuristic 3-nacelled Enterprise-D is going Warp 14... Another scale change, presumably.

Curiously, in the series finale the futuristic 3-nacelled Enterprise-D is going Warp 14... Another scale change, presumably.

I just write that off as Q screwing with Picard.

Which, IIRC were introduced later after Roddenberry's death. Klingons were introduced in the TOS. ;) Roddenberry was still alive and well.

Curiously, in the series finale the futuristic 3-nacelled Enterprise-D is going Warp 14... Another scale change, presumably. key word, Futuristic. although earlier tech manuals stated that due to the characteristic of the warp feild, a three or more nacelles would cancel the warp field effect and cause the ship to become inert.

I have no idea who Kirk or Spork are.

its Kock and Spirk.


i'd recommend an episode in Star Trek: Voyager called Future's End http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Future's_End_(episode)

i'd also highly, highly recommend the movie Star Trek First Contact. i know of a few non-geeks who like that movie simply because its a good movie http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Star_Trek:_First_Contact


i like time travel >.>

If you want to see every TOS episode ever made, just watch the episode of Futurama that was on this week. I condensed just about every one of them, plus a movie or two, into a hilarious 30 minute episode.

I think the idea was that, idealistically, the Federation had evolved beyond the need for currency. So, officially, there was no such thing as money in the Federation or Starfleet, which is why the captains of Starfleet starships might say that they don't use money. One of the big aims for the DS9 writers was to sort of take some of the polish off the Federation and show that things weren't always as idealistic as they were portrayed in TOS and, especially, TNG. So, the utopian Federation might have evolved beyond the need for currency purely as policy, but back in the real world, people still used money for stuff.

When presumably replicators kind of get rid of the need - or counterfeiting just becomes too easy.

Smunkee is the real expert I believe, but from what I remember of the tech specs, they recalibrated the whole 'Warp' scale between TOS and TNG, anyway. Maybe even earlier - Couldn't Excelsior hit 'Warp 10', according to the old scale?
Quite simply, the maximum rated speed for a Constitution Class starship was warp 9, and that was pushing things quite a bit. Warp 8 was considered the maximum safe cruising speed. Enterprise did hit warp 14.1, but that was due to alien influence as noted. Excelsior wasn't much faster than the refitted Enterprise given that the transwarp experiment failed. Transwarp is, of course, a whole 'nother ballgame. And finally, a Galaxy class's top rated speed is 9.8 on the new scale. Though, of course, Enterprise managed to set a speed record.

Oh, about money. By Next Gen the Federation is indeed free of money, through writers/producers of Trek after Roddenberry felt that this was very impractical (though with replicators, it makes sense). DS9's gold-pressed latinum was both a plot device for Quark and other Ferengi, as well as to show that DS9 wasn't in the Federation. Bajor was the frontier and didn't have the replicators and stable economy that Earth would have.

ooh, ooh! watch a Voyager episode called Message In A Bottle... its hilarious (if you like the Doctor) :D
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Message_in_a_Bottle_(episode)

"Tell me who is operating your program. Is it someone on this ship? A Starfleet crewmember we missed, or one of my own men?"
"Paranoia is a way of life for you, isn't it?"
- Rekar and the The Doctor

"Stop breathing down my neck!"
"My breathing is merely a simulation!"
"So is my neck, stop it anyway!"
- The Doctor and EMH Mark II

"The secondary gyrodyne relays in the propulsion field matrix have just depolarized."
"In English!"
"I'm just reading what it says here!"
- EMH Mark II and The Doctor

lulz

Klingons were introduced in the TOS. ;) Roddenberry was still alive and well.

No I meant the marines. I think they eventually appeared anyway in some video game after Roddenberry wasn't around to complain.


key word, Futuristic. although earlier tech manuals stated that due to the characteristic of the warp feild, a three or more nacelles would cancel the warp field effect and cause the ship to become inert.

Yeah that was another issue I had, although the 3 nacelle configuration wasn't without precedent. The original series Star Trek Tech Manual had a Federation Dreadnought that had 3 nacelles. I believe this ship was also featured in a Trek Novel (Not canon, I know) called 'Dreadnought.'

Oh, about money. By Next Gen the Federation is indeed free of money, through writers/producers of Trek after Roddenberry felt that this was very impractical (though with replicators, it makes sense). DS9's gold-pressed latinum was both a plot device for Quark and other Ferengi, as well as to show that DS9 wasn't in the Federation. Bajor was the frontier and didn't have the replicators and stable economy that Earth would have.

Also the rather major point that the Ferengi were not in the Federation.

I seem to recall somewhere that the 'no money' idea was meant to refer to Humans, not the entire UFP.

But it's silly since they had 'credits.' And frequently played poker. And frequently engaged in commerce with aliens who did use money. Even on Voyager, they came up with 'replicator credits.'

Basically, the whole no money idea was Roddenberry's unworkable utopian Marxist vision that just didn't pan out even in the fake world of Star Trek.

Also the rather major point that the Ferengi were not in the Federation.

I seem to recall somewhere that the 'no money' idea was meant to refer to Humans, not the entire UFP.

But it's silly since they had 'credits.' And frequently played poker. And frequently engaged in commerce with aliens who did use money. Even on Voyager, they came up with 'replicator credits.'

Basically, the whole no money idea was Roddenberry's unworkable utopian Marxist vision that just didn't pan out even in the fake world of Star Trek.

Well when there's large scale matter replication (who's technical problems are numerous and horrendous), money ceases to have meaning. It doesn't even make sense that in such a universe the Ferengi could function. As soon as a society gained access to replicator tech money becomes useless.

Also the rather major point that the Ferengi were not in the Federation.

I seem to recall somewhere that the 'no money' idea was meant to refer to Humans, not the entire UFP.

But it's silly since they had 'credits.' And frequently played poker. And frequently engaged in commerce with aliens who did use money. Even on Voyager, they came up with 'replicator credits.'

Basically, the whole no money idea was Roddenberry's unworkable utopian Marxist vision that just didn't pan out even in the fake world of Star Trek.

1. the credits might have been an internal DS9-only system, and while its been a long time since i've seen any DS9, i can't really recall credits being used outside of Quark's bar.

2. when other alien races use money, you have to as well. there are many more alien races in TNG and VOY between whom trades are bartered.

3. on VOY, replicator and holodeck credits were used when supply was low of resources to run those systems, and rationing was in use. when there was no limit on resources, there was no need for credits, rationing or money. that is what stands behind the 'no money' ideal - in a world of infinite resources, money is obsolete. when those resources become scarce once again or are required by a third party (Quark's bar, replicator rations, etc) then a value system comes back into play. its not that the no money ideal is impossible - its just impractical when resources become limited once again.

note that there were - even in DS9 - different currencies used in the same places by the same people. gold-pressed latinum and credits were used side by side for different goods and services, and on VOY replicator rations and holodeck credits were likely interchangable, but will have had different values for sure (i don't know... one holodeck hour for three replicator rations?). the point is even in these situations, a single valued currency system was still not used.

Well when there's large scale matter replication (who's technical problems are numerous and horrendous), money ceases to have meaning. It doesn't even make sense that in such a universe the Ferengi could function. As soon as a society gained access to replicator tech money becomes useless.

Currency will never become useless unless each and every possible commodity, including time, energy and information, is available instantly to everyone everywhere anytime. And that's clearly not the case in the Star Trek universe. There's scarcity of those three commodities and there are scarcities of even replicators. Where there is scarcity, money has a place.

The Ferengi's particular version was un-replicatable too IIRC, hence you had to manufacture/refine 'gold pressed latinum, not just punch buttons into a replicator.

1. the credits might have been an internal DS9-only system, and while its been a long time since i've seen any DS9, i can't really recall credits being used outside of Quark's bar.

I seem to recall it and references to it in TNG too. But it's been a while so I could be wrong.

2. when other alien races use money, you have to as well. there are many more alien races in TNG and VOY between whom trades are bartered.

This is similar to how unless the entire world is Communist, Communist governments are forced to deal in the devilish world of capitalism and trade. And eventually they are out-competed because they can't...

3. on VOY, replicator and holodeck credits were used when supply was low of resources to run those systems, and rationing was in use. when there was no limit on resources, there was no need for credits, rationing or money. that is what stands behind the 'no money' ideal - in a world of infinite resources, money is obsolete. when those resources become scarce once again or are required by a third party (Quark's bar, replicator rations, etc) then a value system comes back into play. its not that the no money ideal is impossible - its just impractical when resources become limited once again.


Resources are always scarce. Except in Heaven.

note that there were - even in DS9 - different currencies used in the same places by the same people. gold-pressed latinum and credits were used side by side for different goods and services, and on VOY replicator rations and holodeck credits were likely interchangable, but will have had different values for sure (i don't know... one holodeck hour for three replicator rations?). the point is even in these situations, a single valued currency system was still not used.

Well so? In the real world a single valued currency isn't used either.

I seem to recall it and references to it in TNG too. But it's been a while so I could be wrong.

i don't remember credits in TNG, but again its been a while. i think things were free at Ten Forward

This is similar to how unless the entire world is Communist, Communist governments are forced to deal in the devilish world of capitalism and trade. And eventually they are out-competed because they can't...
yes. and?


Resources are always scarce. Except in Heaven.
they're not scarce when you have near unlimited energy and replicators to turn biomass and energy into useful matter. that's the point.

but that's for most people, at least. some resources - like dilithium - are scarce. but since the Federation seems to find its own, it doesn't seem to matter to most people.


Well so? In the real world a single valued currency isn't used either.

just an observation

they're not scarce when you have near unlimited energy and replicators to turn biomass and energy into useful matter.

Yes.... they are. Information is scarce unless everyone is omniscient. Time is scarce unless everyone is immortal. Energy is scarce since even you say 'near' unlimited energy. There are limited replicators. Limited access to replicators. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yes.... they are. Information is scarce unless everyone is omniscient. Time is scarce unless everyone is immortal. Energy is scarce since even you say 'near' unlimited energy. There are limited replicators. Limited access to replicators. Etc. Etc. Etc.

it seems that for most people living in the Federation - on Earth at the very least - there is a replicator per household, no constraints on energy, and the necessities of life (as well as luxuries) are well met my replication technology and other energy-intensive techs (such as teleportation). food, water, healthcare, housing, clothing, entertainment... even information appears to be free with subspace communications and vast information databases such as those available even on shuttlecraft.

hell, with just one replicator, a computer and a limited power source, Chakotay and Janeway managed to live a pretty damn nice life on a random planet for a while, pursuing their own interests, with little or no necessities of life scarce (apart from a bathtub). can't remember the episode, but i think they were both ill or something

I seem to recall it and references to it in TNG too. But it's been a while so I could be wrong.


Credits were used in TOS as well (Like in the Tribble episode)

Although one could apply the same arguments to Deep Space Station K7 as to Deep Space 9.

Currency will never become useless unless each and every possible commodity, including time, energy and information, is available instantly to everyone everywhere anytime. And that's clearly not the case in the Star Trek universe. There's scarcity of those three commodities and there are scarcities of even replicators. Where there is scarcity, money has a place.

Replicators have been shown to recycle matter into other matter, so energy scarcity is gone. Information appears freely available for the most part, though there was a reference to Yridians being information dealers. That cuts it down to time.

Replicators have been shown to recycle matter into other matter, so energy scarcity is gone.

If that were the case, "I cannae dew it, Capn, I dun have enough power!" wouldn't be the unofficial motto of the Enterprise. ;)

Replicators aren't exactly energy sources. From what I understand they take, not make energy, which is why on Voyager they had replicator rations because there was a limited amount of energy. The energy source being the antimatter reactor (and I do believe they use fusion reactors as well). Both require some sort of limited resource which is also why you find deuterium and dilithium mining... no doubt all kinds of other resource harvesting, even in a plentifully resourced Federation, there is always scarcity!

You can't escape economics this easily, Roddenberry! *shakes fist*

Information appears freely available for the most part, though there was a reference to Yridians being information dealers. That cuts it down to time.

Freely available doesn't mean infinite and thus there is always a scarcity.

And time is a biggy.

If that were the case, "I cannae dew it, Capn, I dun have enough power!" wouldn't be the unofficial motto of the Enterprise. ;)


Not to nitpick, but the quote is from the original series, which did not have replicators. Those weren't introduced until TNG.

Not to nitpick, but the quote is from the original series, which did not have replicators. Those weren't introduced until TNG.

Noted. In TNG and later series, the unofficial motto is no longer in a hokey Scottish accent. :)

Noted. In TNG and later series, the unofficial motto is no longer in a hokey Scottish accent. :)

In the later series, they can't do it because of a subspace inversion/tachyon particles/reverse quantum singularity/gravimetric eddy/etc.

In the later series, they can't do it because of a subspace inversion/tachyon particles/reverse quantum singularity/gravimetric eddy/etc.

That's my other big issue with the newer Star Trek. Almost every single episode is some form of deus ex machina by particle/wave/whatever. It's almost like every other crisis aboard the Enterprise is solvable by simply figuring out which particle to emit and at what frequency, and the writers were constantly inventing new particles, or redefining theoretical particles to do different things.

Replicators have been shown to recycle matter into other matter, so energy scarcity is gone. Information appears freely available for the most part, though there was a reference to Yridians being information dealers. That cuts it down to time.

Replicators use some sort of gel-like substance for replication (Voy explained this when their gel packs were infected with an alien virus) as well as other matter. so physical supplies are no longer a problem as well as waste recycling.
The energy still comes from the dilitium crystals which also undergo a recrystalization process (TNG) as explained to a time distorted Cmdr Scott so energy is not a problem.
add the communication system which allow near instantanious communications and you no longer have the captain taking responsiblity for their actions.

which is my big problem with TNG and all star trek stories set in that time. no lack of supplies, no drain on energy resources, and no captain having to make the decision without consulting starfleet.

its Kock and Spirk. sounds like characters in a Star Trek Porn.

No I meant the marines. I think they eventually appeared anyway in some video game after Roddenberry wasn't around to complain. but never in the series. ;)

Yeah that was another issue I had, although the 3 nacelle configuration wasn't without precedent. The original series Star Trek Tech Manual had a Federation Dreadnought that had 3 nacelles. I believe this ship was also featured in a Trek Novel (Not canon, I know) called 'Dreadnought.' yep. but that made more 'sense' since the third nacelle was situated below the ship. Not in the middle of the two nacelles.

So far, I've watched a bit of it...

I must say, it isn't halfway as bad as I expected - at least DS9. AIUI, it's the best series, and I quite like the premise of being less pink-cloud utopian and somewhat darker and more realistic.



One thing that keeps annoying me, though, is why is Star Trek so ultra-anthropocentric? Every single "alien" species is humans with pointy ears, humans with a ribbed nose, or humans with a bumpy forehead. I can understand it as makeup reasons for the TOS, made on a lunch budget with little technology, but why did they have to carry this bigotry into even the new species of the later series, which clearly could do better? And what's the deal with every civilization (except for Borg and Q) having a barely altered 20th century Caucasian society as their structure, makeup cost being no excuse here?
I doubt it takes all that much imagination to at least consider the possibility that intelligence and hominid shape, as strange as it seems, might be possible one without another.


Is there some in-universe explanation for this, like some ancient species spraying intelligent hominids all over the galaxy a million years ago, or is it just... not sure what?

So far, I've watched a bit of it...

I must say, it isn't halfway as bad as I expected - at least DS9. AIUI, it's the best series, and I quite like the premise of being less pink-cloud utopian and somewhat darker and more realistic.



One thing that keeps annoying me, though, is why is Star Trek so ultra-anthropocentric? Every single "alien" species is humans with pointy ears, humans with a ribbed nose, or humans with a bumpy forehead. I can understand it as makeup reasons for the TOS, made on a lunch budget with little technology, but why did they have to carry this bigotry into even the new species of the later series, which clearly could do better? I doubt it takes that much imagination to at least consider the possibility that intelligence and the hominid shape, as strange as it seems, might be possible one without another.


Is there some in-universe explanation for this, like some ancient species spraying intelligent hominids all over the galaxy a million years ago, or is it just... not sure what?
I haven't a clue and have often wondered. You get a few instances of "out of the box" thinking in TOS. Enterprise with all of it's flaws (read: too damn many flaws) did have more than a few instances of non-homind alien foes and meetings.

I had assumed for a while that it was the nature of the beast in TOS and TNG being in the alpha quadrant, but things after that have proven that hypothesis wrong.

The movies were no where near as good as the TV shows. DS9 was the best then Voyager then the original then next generation then the one with the quantum leap guy.

I haven't a clue and have often wondered. You get a few instances of "out of the box" thinking in TOS. Enterprise with all of it's flaws (read: too damn many flaws) did have more than a few instances of non-homind alien foes and meetings.

I had assumed for a while that it was the nature of the beast in TOS and TNG being in the alpha quadrant, but things after that have proven that hypothesis wrong.

Yes but we all know Voyager never happened. I blame the progenitor race from TNG and lazy writers.

Is there some in-universe explanation for this, like some ancient species spraying intelligent hominids all over the galaxy a million years ago
Yes. There was an episode where Picard discovered that precisely that had happened, but I can't remember a title for it.

Yes but we all know Voyager never happened. I blame the progenitor race from TNG and lazy writers.

Of course it did. I covered that in my reply, by saying that later incarnations that weren't in the alpha quad. had proven to me that the homind bias wasn't an alpha quad. issue.

ooh, ooh! watch a Voyager episode called Message In A Bottle... its hilarious (if you like the Doctor) :D
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Message_in_a_Bottle_(episode)


The one where 7 of 9 got the doctor's programing in her was the best acting in Star Trek history. :D

Of course it did. I covered that in my reply, by saying that later incarnations that weren't in the alpha quad. had proven to me that the homind bias wasn't an alpha quad. issue.

Voyager was just so bad I tend to ignore it as canon. DS9 showed delta quadrant races, a couple of them anyway. I'd write the rubber forehead aliens off as a cost issue. Same reason Odo rarely shape shifted on screen.

The one where 7 of 9 got the doctor's programing in her was the best acting in Star Trek history. :D

Then again, you gotta question any show where the best actor is the hologram.

Voyager was just so bad I tend to ignore it as canon. DS9 showed delta quadrant races, a couple of them anyway. I'd write the rubber forehead aliens off as a cost issue. Same reason Odo rarely shape shifted on screen.

I'll ignore that. Just like I ignore DS9 for similar if not the EXACT same reasons. :p

Then again, you gotta question any show where the best actor is the hologram.

Or Data. :tongue:

I'll ignore that. Just like I ignore DS9 for similar if not the EXACT same reasons. :p

Blasphemy!

Or Data. :tongue:

Point.

One thing that keeps annoying me, though, is why is Star Trek so ultra-anthropocentric? Every single "alien" species is humans with pointy ears, humans with a ribbed nose, or humans with a bumpy forehead. I can understand it as makeup reasons for the TOS, made on a lunch budget with little technology, but why did they have to carry this bigotry into even the new species of the later series, which clearly could do better? And what's the deal with every civilization (except for Borg and Q) having a barely altered 20th century Caucasian society as their structure, makeup cost being no excuse here?
I doubt it takes all that much imagination to at least consider the possibility that intelligence and hominid shape, as strange as it seems, might be possible one without another.


Is there some in-universe explanation for this, like some ancient species spraying intelligent hominids all over the galaxy a million years ago, or is it just... not sure what?

There's both an in-universe and real-life explanation for why all the aliens are humanoids.

In-universe, there was a two-part Next Generation episode that dealt with an alien riddle hidden in the genomes of the various races of the Alpha Quadrant. Turns out, millions or billions of years ago, a humanoid species rose to dominate most of the galaxy. They found themselves to be the only intelligent life in the entire galaxy, so they seeded hundreds of worlds with their genetic code and allowed it to evolve naturally on the various planets. Eventually, that alien race died off, but their descendants formed the numerous races of the galaxy in "modern day" Trek.

Of course, real-life, the budget for episodes was still slim, even if it was much more than TOS, and computer animation was still rather rudimentary in 1993. To stretch the budget, they would create alien races that required fewer prosthetics. This would let them to create more prosthetics, allowing for the background actors to be more diverse instead of mostly humans with a few interspersed aliens, and it allowed the prosthetics to be modified for new actors at minimal cost. This prevented them from having to remake brand new prosthetics for each new alien character.

As far as most species being Caucasian, you are correct. However, a large majority of actors portraying Klingons and Jem'Hadar were black. You can take any sort of implicit racism from that if you wish (along with the three main Ferengi characters all being Jewish actors).

So far, I've watched a bit of it...

I must say, it isn't halfway as bad as I expected - at least DS9. AIUI, it's the best series, and I quite like the premise of being less pink-cloud utopian and somewhat darker and more realistic.



One thing that keeps annoying me, though, is why is Star Trek so ultra-anthropocentric? Every single "alien" species is humans with pointy ears, humans with a ribbed nose, or humans with a bumpy forehead. I can understand it as makeup reasons for the TOS, made on a lunch budget with little technology, but why did they have to carry this bigotry into even the new species of the later series, which clearly could do better? And what's the deal with every civilization (except for Borg and Q) having a barely altered 20th century Caucasian society as their structure, makeup cost being no excuse here?
I doubt it takes all that much imagination to at least consider the possibility that intelligence and hominid shape, as strange as it seems, might be possible one without another.


Is there some in-universe explanation for this, like some ancient species spraying intelligent hominids all over the galaxy a million years ago, or is it just... not sure what?

There have been a few in-universe clues as to why there is such a preponderence of human-oid shapes... they showed it to be a natural evolutionary result of parallel evolution, in an episode of Voyager (where the crew encounter what Hadrosaurs would look like, if they'd 'evolved')... which makes a certain kind of sense - if you assume a 6-point-skeletal structure (as we have). Bipedal allows two manipulative limbs which will be adapted accordingly. omnivores tend to find it easier to adapt to niches, so most lifeforms should show fairly omnivore-ish features... in our case, that's forward facing eyes, etc), and there is advantage to an fully upright-ish stance in terms of omnivorousness, also - and in terms of predator survivability.

Also - Klingons have been shown to be a divergent species, and Romulans and Vulcans have been described as being from one root race. The in-universe explanation seems to be largely two factors - parallel evolution and common ancestors.


Of course, there are other 'fourth wall' reasons, too - alien-looking species have been tried in other shows, and tend to look shit, most of the time. That's a biggy. And the nature of Star Trek storytelling lends itself to stories where it's not hard to place yourself in the role of the alien - which is easier, the more human-like the alien is.

Or Data. :tongue:

Wait... what? Brent Spiner is a better actor than Patrick Stewart?

Then again, you gotta question any show where the best actor is the hologram.

No the stellar preformance was 7 of 9 pretending to be a hologram. Just her saying "Please state the nature of the medical emergency" had me in stitches. :tongue:

Wait... what? Brent Spiner is a better actor than Patrick Stewart?

My friend and I have a really apt analogy for the acting in TNG. Patrick Stewart is like a really dominant marathon runner. For most of the show, he's pacing himself. He acts well, but doesn't really exert himself. This allows the other actors in the show to put together intermittent episodes of tremendous acting. Brent Spiner, LeVar Burton, heck, even Thomas Frakes occasionally had really great episodes. Eventually, though, Patrick Stewart notices that the rest of the runners are passing him. That's when he busts out an episode like "Tapestry" or "Inner Light". He sprints right by them back into the lead, and shows them just who exactly they're on screen with.

No the stellar preformance was 7 of 9 pretending to be a hologram. Just her saying "Please state the nature of the medical emergency" had me in stitches. :tongue:

I guess I don't remember. Looking it up now. Anyway, for all of Voyager's faults, I think Voyager had the nicest overall ship of all the Star Trek series.

It was sleek, compact, elegant, had the ability to land and a high cruise speed and endurance.

My friend and I have a really apt analogy for the acting in TNG. Patrick Stewart is like a really dominant marathon runner. For most of the show, he's pacing himself.

I guess my 'problem' is that TNG was far from the first thing I saw Patrick Stewart in, and I've always been impressed. He's variable in TNG - always good, sometimes great... but that's only a fraction of his acting.

I've seen Brent Spiner in a few other things.... ID4 and Phenomenon, I believe... and he's ok for a person who does that for a living...

I guess I don't remember. Looking it up now. Anyway, for all of Voyager's faults, I think Voyager had the nicest overall ship of all the Star Trek series.

It was sleek, compact, elegant, had the ability to land and a high cruise speed and endurance.

It was in an area of the Delta Quadrant where possesion of a hologram was a crime. (or something like that)

My fav ship is still the original. Maybe just because of nostalgic feelings though.

The best spaceship of them all was the White Star on Babylon-5 (the best TV show in history until Deadwood came along)

It was in an area of the Delta Quadrant where possesion of a hologram was a crime. (or something like that)

Do you remember the episode name?