NationStates Jolt Archive

Does an employer have the right to even suggest what you can buy?

http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a/buy-american-cars-or-not/20080906161909990001

When Detroit makes a car I like as much as my 2002 Civic Si, I'll buy it. I really wish they would. But they have drastically different automotive priorities than I do, and always have. They supported the build-to-last to the end of the payment schedule model so that folks would want to go out and buy another car in a few years. Then they supported gas guzzlers, then SUVs. They have failed to see the writing on the wall more often than Mr. Magoo.

An employer can suggest all they want. But this is the Land of Consumer Choice. For a mayor to demand such allegiance and use it as a kind of threat, well, that's just un-American.

This is just the mayor of a city in a desperate condition saying something shallow and thoughtless that doesn't actually address any economic issues but just makes it seem like he's looking for scapegoats.

Have the "big three" promised to bring back the auto factory jobs that have been lost from Detroit if more city workers buy American cars? No, they haven't? Then the mayor is just flapping his mouth about nothing.

And as some of the people in the article pointed out:

-- If this "buy American to save jobs" mayor's clothes have "Made in China/Guatemala/Hungary/etc" on their labels instead of "Made in USA" (and I don't mean a sweatshop in Mauritius), then he's just flapping his mouth.

-- And if these so-called American-made cars are actually assembled out of foreign components, then how many American jobs have really been saved/created by buying them? His intimidation tactics with city employees will do nothing but put a little more money into the car companies' pockets while doing nothing at all for the citizens of Detroit.

I hate shit like that.

EDIT: Oh, and to the OP question: No, an employer has no right to tell you what to buy for your own uses on your own time with your own money. If your employer is an actual manufacturer of a product, they may request that you not use rival products while at work, but that's about as far as they have any right to go. And that doesn't apply to the mayor of Detroit.

Does an employer have the right to even suggest what you can buy?

http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a/buy-american-cars-or-not/20080906161909990001
How do you determine what is "American"? Is the Toyota that is made from 90% "Made in the USA" parts American, or is it the Ford with the Mitsubishi engine and the chassis that's assembled in Mexico?

Okay, the percentages and locations might be wrong, but the lines are very blurry about what constitutes a "Made in the USA" automobile.

Isn't it true that the foreign automakers are investing in the United States, building new plants, offices, and research centers while GM and Ford are closing plants and relocating them overseas? Haven't GM and Ford also been doing this long before they started to suffer financial troubles, even when they were making money hand over fist from SUV sales? I'm pretty sure buying from the former will help America a lot more than buying from the latter. The latter doesn't particularly seem to care about the United States and many of them have negligible quantities of American parts, ingenuity, or engineering inside them.

I'd start taking the bus. :p

Isn't it true that the foreign automakers are investing in the United States, building new plants, offices, and research centers while GM and Ford are closing plants and relocating them overseas? Haven't GM and Ford also been doing this long before they started to suffer financial troubles, even when they were making money hand over fist from SUV sales? I'm pretty sure buying from the former will help America a lot more than buying from the latter. The latter doesn't particularly seem to care about the United States and many of them have negligible quantities of American parts, ingenuity, or engineering inside them.
This is very true. Knee-jerk loyalty to a label is unrealistic. When it comes to which companies are going to benefit the American people more, the question has to be "What have you done for us lately?" Lately, the foreign-based companies have done a shitload more that Detroit's "native son" companies.

I'd start taking the bus. :p
I wonder where Detroit gets its buses from? A lot of cities get them from Japan or Europe nowadays.

I've driven my Honda in Flint, MI, and gotten really dirty looks. I suspect that if I'd driven into the wrong neighborhoods at the wrong time of night, it would have been more than just looks. Maybe Mr Mayor considers it a safety issue.

When the Big Three makes a car that fits my budget, my body, and my style, I'll consider changing. In the meantime, every American made car that I've driven (rentals, mostly) have had poor handling characteristics or were designed for somebody 5'10" or less. Why is it that a nation renowned for short people (Japan) makes better cars for tall folk? Makes no sense to me.

I wonder where Detroit gets its buses from? A lot of cities get them from Japan or Europe nowadays.

As if Detroit had buses :tongue:

Anyway, being a Michigander raised in the 80's I was raised to believe that owning a Japanese car was as American as flying the sickle and hammer in front of your house. These days, I drive a Mazda and don't get a second look as there's definitely a feeling that we've been abandoned by the Big 3. Still, I can understand the emotion behind it, even if I know it doesn't really make sense.

He can suggest it in the same way I can suggest that he resign in shame.

Buy the best that you can, at the cheapest price. If you buy American just for the sake of buying American, you're a fool and encouraging said companies to continue overcharging and/or making crappy products. If you're buying American cause it's good, well, good for you.

How do you determine what is "American"? Is the Toyota that is made from 90% "Made in the USA" parts American, or is it the Ford with the Mitsubishi engine and the chassis that's assembled in Mexico?

Okay, the percentages and locations might be wrong, but the lines are very blurry about what constitutes a "Made in the USA" automobile.

I remember a special about 'Made in the USA'. they showed a GM truck where the only american part was the rear view mirror and an 'import' that was manufactured in the US.

This is very true. Knee-jerk loyalty to a label is unrealistic. When it comes to which companies are going to benefit the American people more, the question has to be "What have you done for us lately?" Lately, the foreign-based companies have done a shitload more that Detroit's "native son" companies.

Exactly. When I look around Ohio State, I see a brand new automotive research and mechanical engineering facility funded by Honda, scholarships and research grants in emerging technologies financed by Toyota, and active recruitment by foreign automakers seeking engineers and business students to work in their domestic facilities. The Big Three are nowhere to be found. I'd love to see American automakers producing the best cars in the world like they did in years past, but until they start making real investments in our communities and the future of automotive technology in the United States, it's hard to see anything more than a bunch of bottom feeders attempting to salvage what's left of these companies and pursue profits at the cost of long-term success.

I remember a special about 'Made in the USA'. they showed a GM truck where the only american part was the rear view mirror and an 'import' that was manufactured in the US.
Suddenly reminds me of Porsche Cayenne, wonder if there's anything made by Porsche in there.

Or Hummer H2, has about 0 parts in common with H1, but probably 90% with Chevy Tahoe.

Or Hummer H2, has about 0 parts in common with H1, but probably 90% with Chevy Tahoe.

Honestly, the H2 was a vehicle designed solely to take advantage of the $100,000 tax deduction for heavy vehicles. Now the tax has been scaled back down to $25,000 and you've got to file a Schedule C to claim it, so it's been effectively restored to its original purpose of aiding the purchase of heavy work vehicles.

Sort of mysterious that GM is finally trying to scrap the brand now that the loophole was closed last year, isn't it? Sure, they'll lie and say it's because of high gas prices...I mean, not like they've been setting new records since 2004 or anything like that. It's such a myopic, foolish move that I'd be surprised if they end up making any money off the venture once the brand is sold to someone else at bargain-bin prices.

This company's management baffles me.

Simpletons may still believe that Mitsubishi's are still exclusively made in Japan and Chevrolets in the US of A, but that's a romantic and horribly obsolete sentiment. If I'm not mistaken, Chevrolet has taken over the car department of Daewoo and is now manufacturing those Daewoo car designs in South Korea as Chevrolets, for example. Volkswagen cars have even been manufactured in South America for decades. Chauvinist consumerism is not only a great way to fool yourself, it also limits you in your choices. Conservapedia may disagree, though.

Simpletons may still believe that Mitsubishi's are still exclusively made in Japan and Chevrolets in the US of A, but that's a romantic and horribly obsolete sentiment. If I'm not mistaken, Chevrolet has taken over the car department of Daewoo and is now manufacturing those Daewoo car designs in South Korea as Chevrolets, for example. Volkswagen cars have even been manufactured in South America for decades. Chauvinist consumerism is not only a great way to fool yourself, it also limits you in your choices. Conservapedia may disagree, though.
The answer truly is to let the market sort it out. If I want a nice, reliable, and economical, sedan, I'll buy a Honda Accord. But if I want a 1 ton truck, with a diesel engine, I'm headed to Dodge country.

Maybe that's what the market will show in ten years, "American" trucks and "foreign" sedans...

Actually, Japanese "personal"-class trucks tend to be a lot better than American ones, but they're also more expensive, often much more.

Japanese trucks tend to be a whole world better than American ones, but they're also more expensive, often much more.
It depends on what you want to do with the truck. Mine is for work, not for show.

I don't believe any Japanese truck is rated for over a half ton. I'm probably wrong, but I've never seen one that matches the cargo capacity of my Dodge dualie.

And it was damned difficult finding a 1 ton, single cab truck, with a full-sized bed.

I see you changed something. I agree, of course. But a nice sedan would substitute nicely for a "Personal class" truck.

Well? There is your surroundings to consider. If you work for Ford and drive on to the plant with a Toyota, you are asking for trouble.

What is American these days?

I remember one car from the hypocrite Lee Iacocca and his "buy American" pitch; it had a Japanese engine, a German Turbo and a French Breaking system....

It depends on what you want to do with the truck. Mine is for work, not for show.

I don't believe any Japanese truck is rated for over a half ton. I'm probably wrong, but I've never seen one that matches the cargo capacity of my Dodge dualie.
Over half a ton? Most of them.

And it was damned difficult finding a 1 ton, single cab truck, with a full-sized bed.
Well, here you go, even the light Toyota Hilux fits that at ease:

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/toyota-hilux-single-cab-pick-up-range-1005003.html

"[...] Although, at 945kg, the maximum payload in the 4WD single cab is actually a little lower than the 1,085kg in its five-seater sibling. If you want to carry the maximum and arent too fussed about off-road performance, youll be wanting the 2WD single cab with its 1,170kg capacity."



I see you changed something. I agree, of course. But a nice sedan would substitute nicely for a "Personal class" truck.
Well, I just wanted to clarify, I mean the personal trucks, as in pickups and SUV, not industrial ones. There, though, Japan is quite competitive too, but not as much.

Well? There is your surroundings to consider. If you work for Ford and drive on to the plant with a Toyota, you are asking for trouble.

It's more driving around a town where everyone used to work for Ford. Unemployment in the city of Detroit is around 30% and unemployment in Michigan as a whole is 8.5% so people are a bit angry about the whole thing.

Over half a ton? Most of them.


Well, here you go, even the light Toyota Hilux fits that at ease:

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/toyota-hilux-single-cab-pick-up-range-1005003.html

"[...] Although, at 945kg, the maximum payload in the 4WD single cab is actually a little lower than the 1,085kg in its five-seater sibling. If you want to carry the maximum and arent too fussed about off-road performance, youll be wanting the 2WD single cab with its 1,170kg capacity."

I guess I really shouldn't call the 3500 a "1 Ton" truck anymore. Those are archaic terms, from what I see now.

Dodge actually rates it at 4700 lb for payload. What's that in metric... Something like 2100 kg? And mine will run on corn oil in a pinch.

Tundra is the Toyota full-sized truck sold in the US, they don't market a diesel version.

It's more driving around a town where everyone used to work for Ford. Unemployment in the city of Detroit is around 30% and unemployment in Michigan as a whole is 8.5% so people are a bit angry about the whole thing.

Oh I know. My uncle was a manager at Ford. My cousin worked for Delphi. My uncle retired before the bottom fell out and my cousin is in a different industry now....

When American companys make a car that isnt utter shit (especially in comparison to their foreign counterparts) Ill consider buying American.


A car is a big investment. Id rather not knowingly invest on a car that wont give me as much of my money's worth.

the key word is SUGGEST. It looks better if every person in a company uses their own items instead of the competitions. But to actually convince them the company should be more tactful.

Prehaps a 20% discount would make everyone in the company buy one instead of the competitions.

Or you could have it as benifit of being employed. Every year X dollars can be spent on company merchandise in such a way that is cant be spent anywhere else due to the contract of employement.

That way people end up joining the company knowing from the start how much money for them the employer controls and how much they do.

But once the cash is in the hand of the employee, fellow workers or even employers may give adive but that is no reason to follow it. It disgusts me that someone can say "spend your savings this way or you will loose your job"

Your money your choice. The company just couldnt think far ahead enough to make the decision. A new boss is probably alot more important than half a hundered more sales.

the key word is SUGGEST. It looks better if every person in a company uses their own items instead of the competitions. But to actually convince them the company should be more tactful.

Look at how he SUGGESTS.

"But I strongly suggested that the next car they buy should be an American one, and that I had an equally strong expectation that they will do so," Fouts said. "Legally, since they are 'at-will' employees, I have the right to mandate, and an expectation that they will meet that mandate."

"But the ones who are not happy about this -- well, they won't talk to [reporters] about that, because they know how I feel about it," said Fouts.


I think that borders on illegal, and likely will be when carried through.

Well? There is your surroundings to consider. If you work for Ford and drive on to the plant with a Toyota, you are asking for trouble.

Whenever I go past the car manufacturing plants in the city I live I always wonder if they is a non Mitsubishi or Holden (GM) car in the car park.

Chauvinist consumerism is not only a great way to fool yourself, it also limits you in your choices. Conservapedia may disagree, though.

Well it doesn't really have a hell of lot to do about believing yours superior, but rather wanting to help out local industry and the local economy. Now really we countries should begin investment and producing products in which they have a comparative advantage over.

It may seem I am disagreeing with you but I actually agree with most people on this forum that we shouldn't buy a certain product simply because it is from a particular country, though if two products are exactly the same and have exactly the same price why wouldn't you buy the local product?

Consumer Ethnocentrism is a far better term to use than trying to place some sort of negative comment like chauvinist into the picture as it doesn't accurately reflect the view of buying local. Now yes some people may believe that their countries products are superior simply because it came out of their country but it is not always the case and shouldn't be viewed as such, appealing to emotion is not the best way to put an argument forward.

I am sure that if I drove through Detroit in a BMW X5 or even Z4 since they are predominantly made in the USA.

Exactly. When I look around Ohio State, I see a brand new automotive research and mechanical engineering facility funded by Honda, scholarships and research grants in emerging technologies financed by Toyota, and active recruitment by foreign automakers seeking engineers and business students to work in their domestic facilities. The Big Three are nowhere to be found. I'd love to see American automakers producing the best cars in the world like they did in years past, but until they start making real investments in our communities and the future of automotive technology in the United States, it's hard to see anything more than a bunch of bottom feeders attempting to salvage what's left of these companies and pursue profits at the cost of long-term success.

[/thread]

When American companys make a car that isnt utter shit (especially in comparison to their foreign counterparts) Ill consider buying American.


A car is a big investment. Id rather not knowingly invest on a car that wont give me as much of my money's worth.
Well, do it now. Ford and Buick have both taken turns near the top of the JD Power IQS.

By the way, how do you define an "American" automobile?

The aticle title is highly misleading.
This mayor is simply advocating that his employees buy cars that are made in his town. No let me rephrase - this mayor is advocating that his employees buy the cars that made his town.

What is the big deal if he is suggesting that his employees support the local economy.

Not really.

"Legally, since they are 'at-will' employees, I have the right to mandate, and an expectation that they will meet that mandate."

He says they'll be fired if they don't comply.

And:

"But the ones who are not happy about this -- well, they won't talk to [reporters] about that, because they know how I feel about it,"
- And he says that those who talk to the press negatively will be fired too.

...how do you define an "American" automobile?...

One that is overweight and with an insatiable thirst for oil?

The aticle title is highly misleading.
This mayor is simply advocating that his employees buy cars that are made in his town. No let me rephrase - this mayor is advocating that his employees buy the cars that made his town.

What is the big deal if he is suggesting that his employees support the local economy.

I don't see how you can take him pointing out that his employees are "at will" employees as anything but a veiled threat.

Not really.



He says they'll be fired if they don't comply.

And:


- And he says that those who talk to the press negatively will be fired too.

Now you are taking what he said and making it to mean something else.

I don't see how you can take him pointing out that his employees are "at will" employees as anything but a veiled threat.

He said it response to those who would say that he cant expect certain things of his employees, which he can and has every right to.

If I decided all of the sudden to mandate that my workers don't smoke on my property, and explain I would be very disappointed if they did, that is quite different than saying anyone caught smoking on break will be immediately fired.

He said it response to those who would say that he cant expect certain things of his employees, which he can and has every right to.

If I decided all of the sudden to mandate that my workers don't smoke on my property, and explain I would be very disappointed if they did, that is quite different than saying anyone caught smoking on break will be immediately fired.
Have you ever been an at-will employee? I have, at various jobs, for nearly 30 years. Trust me, when a boss says something like that, the "or else" is implicit, every single time. The only exception is when the boss is demanding something so unreasonable that firing you for not doing it would be wrongful dismissal (in other words, a violation of state and federal regulations and a lawsuit). However, because your employment is at-will, your boss doesn't have to cite a reason for firing you when he does fire you, so good luck proving that he did it because you bucked his unreasonable "suggestion" about what you do with your money and your possessions on your time. This is why all at-will employees should do whatever it takes to get their boss's "suggestions" in writing -- like the employees of Detroit have done here. Their boss's helpful "suggestion" is in writing in the newspaper. Let's see him squirm out of it now if it comes down to a fight over enforcement.

That goes to "suggestions" from bosses about employees private lifestyles, in general. In particular to this one instance, the mayer of Detroit is full of shit. Having the approximately 10% of city employees who don't already drive American companies' cars go out and buy some is not going to do anything for the people of Detroit, the people of Michigan, or the US economy. But maybe quitting working for that blowhard mayor and going to work for one of the Japanese or Korean car companies that are actually running plants in the US and hiring Americans to work in them would make a positive difference.

Man, if my employer wouldn't let me buy other cars (and I actually drove a car) and then I needed a new one, I'd just take the bus.

I am sure that if I drove through Detroit in a BMW X5 or even Z4 since they are predominantly made in the USA.

Yeah, but they're both made in Spartanburg, South Carolina, not Detroit, thus likely don't count for the Mayor's purposes.

And trust me, auto workers are very much aware of where different makes and models are assembled.

edit: Apparently the Z4 is only made in Regensburg, Germany now, but my point stands.

If I decided all of the sudden to mandate that my workers don't smoke on my property, and explain I would be very disappointed if they did, that is quite different than saying anyone caught smoking on break will be immediately fired.
tr.v. man·dat·ed, man·dat·ing, man·dates
1. To assign (a colony or territory) to a specified nation under a mandate.
2. To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require: mandated desegregation of public schools.

Generally "mandate" would mean exactly that, that they'd be fired. And a mention that they're "at will" employees makes it crystal clear.

I'm sorry but you obviously only read what you want to read. He said he has the right to mandate. He did not say that he is mandating that his employees buy only American cars.
When the question of whether or not he had the authority to make this kind of suggestion he basically said, "well actually not only can I suggest what I want my employees to do I also have the authority to mandate whatever I want so buzz off"

And for the record I have been an at will employee. And have had this kind of thing happen. I have even defied a suggestion such as the one the mayor is giving to his employees, with no real consequences.

And yes, if they don't like his suggestion, they can quit.

I'm sorry but you obviously only read what you want to read. He said he has the right to mandate. He did not say that he is mandating that his employees buy only American cars.
When the question of whether or not he had the authority to make this kind of suggestion he basically said, "well actually not only can I suggest what I want my employees to do I also have the authority to mandate whatever I want so buzz off"

And for the record I have been an at will employee. And have had this kind of thing happen. I have even defied a suggestion such as the one the mayor is giving to his employees, with no real consequences.

And yes, if they don't like his suggestion, they can quit.

Uh huh. And then where will they work? You do realize what place you're talking about, right? Detroit? With a 30% unemployment rate?

What makes you think they've got other possible jobs lined up?

I'm sorry but you obviously only read what you want to read.

That's all you had to say, for you are doing exactly the same thing. The difference is, we're reading what we want to read in reality. Where you're reading is subject to question.

I'd start taking the bus. :pI'll raise you one: I'll walk.

Uh huh. And then where will they work? You do realize what place you're talking about, right? Detroit? With a 30% unemployment rate?

What makes you think they've got other possible jobs lined up?

They can go campaign for obama.

They can go campaign for obama.Good one, Foulon.

They can go campaign for obama.

That'll only get them work for a couple months at most, and something tells me Detroit is already more or less in Obama's pocket anyway.

That'll only get them work for a couple months at most, and something tells me Detroit is already more or less in Obama's pocket anyway.Work, yes. Pay? Not likely.

Work, yes. Pay? Not likely.

Exactly.

What do we need to do about Detroit, though? How are we going to renovate it so that we get those 30% unemployed back into employment status? Where are we going to get new jobs from?

I've not seen an answer to that question from anyone yet.

Uh how bout the mayors plan of buying more american cars so the plants in detroit will hire more american workers

Exactly.

What do we need to do about Detroit, though? How are we going to renovate it so that we get those 30% unemployed back into employment status? Where are we going to get new jobs from?

I've not seen an answer to that question from anyone yet.
Here's an idea: Let's elect a president and (in the election after that) a Congress that will invest heavily in and create incentives for development of alternate energy systems and new technologies, together with new jobs to go with them, and that will encourage companies who get into those areas seriously to locate their plants in the US -- and Michigan -- with a combination of incentives to keep work here and penalties for moving work out of the country.

Then let the voters of Michigan and Detroit put some pressure on the state and municipal governments to remove any obstacles that may exist for new employers trying to get into those areas and remodeling old industrial structures for new uses.

It might not do the trick, but could it really make things any worse?

Here's an idea: Let's elect a president and (in the election after that) a Congress that will invest heavily in and create incentives for development of alternate energy systems and new technologies, together with new jobs to go with them, and that will encourage companies who get into those areas seriously to locate their plants in the US -- and Michigan -- with a combination of incentives to keep work here and penalties for moving work out of the country.

Then let the voters of Michigan and Detroit put some pressure on the state and municipal governments to remove any obstacles that may exist for new employers trying to get into those areas and remodeling old industrial structures for new uses.

It might not do the trick, but could it really make things any worse?

Certainly not. It's a plan, at least, and unlike many I've heard recently it has a decent chance of doing something. At the very least it accomplishes several useful goals, and if it helps the people of Michigan too, then that's just a bonus. (A very massive, important bonus.)

Uh how bout the mayors plan of buying more american cars so the plants in detroit will hire more american workers

Have you not been reading the thread? How many domestic models are actually made in Detroit? If it's all SUVs, and they're not selling because of high gas prices, how will that help at all?

Uh how bout the mayors plan of buying more american cars so the plants in detroit will hire more american workers
Except, Mr. Selective Reader, for the following issues, which have already been covered in this thread:

1) "American" cars are actually largely manufactured in other countries. Either they are entirely or mostly constructed outside the US, or they are assembled in the US out of 90+% foreign-made components. Thus, "American" car manufacturers actually employ very few Americans.

2) The article linked in the OP mentions that it is probable that only about 10% of Detroit city workers do not already drive cars made by "American" companies. I hardly think that getting that small number of people to buy Fords or whatever is going to solve Detroit's economic woes.

Uh how bout the mayors plan of buying more american cars so the plants in detroit will hire more american workersThey're shitty cars, that's what's the problem. Why do you think GM is about to go bankrupt?

They're shitty cars, that's what's the problem. Why do you think GM is about to go bankrupt?

They USED to be shitty cars. The Big Three caught up to the real quality issue way too late, and the fuel economy issue even later. They're still flogging trucks and SUVs as commuter vehicles. They are terminally behind because they have refused on many occasions to acknowledge reality and plan accordingly.

Except, Mr. Selective Reader, for the following issues, which have already been covered in this thread:

1) "American" cars are actually largely manufactured in other countries. Either they are entirely or mostly constructed outside the US, or they are assembled in the US out of 90+% foreign-made components. Thus, "American" car manufacturers actually employ very few Americans.

Except the mayor was specifically advocating the purchase of car models that are actually made in the factory that is in his town

Except the mayor was specifically advocating the purchase of car models that are actually made in the factory that is in his town
Really? I must have missed that part. Kindly point out for me where he made that clear by quoting the article.

EDIT: Oh, and while you're at it, read the rest of the thread and respond to the several posts that point out that "foreign" car manufacturers build large numbers of cars in the US and employ Americans and then explain to us why people shouldn't buy those cars to benefit US workers.

Also, please respond to the posters who pointed out that few cars made in America are made in Detroit, and then explain how following the mayors orders to buy such cars is going to help Detroit.

Thanks, I'll wait.

They USED to be shitty cars. The Big Three caught up to the real quality issue way too late, and the fuel economy issue even later. They're still flogging trucks and SUVs as commuter vehicles. They are terminally behind because they have refused on many occasions to acknowledge reality and plan accordingly.To me, a car that lags behind the Chinese standard for fuel efficiency is a shitty car.

Exactly.

What do we need to do about Detroit, though? How are we going to renovate it so that we get those 30% unemployed back into employment status? Where are we going to get new jobs from?

I've not seen an answer to that question from anyone yet.

One of the biggest problems with Detroit is the massive amount of segregation in the Metro area. Detroit needs a government that has authority over the entire Metro area, so it can operate as a whole rather than as dozens of smaller, independent cities. Many of the extremely affluent suburbs (which are vastly majority white, compared to the vastly majority black Detroit) are attempting to build their own downtowns and pretend as though the city has no effect on them. The problem is that the people needed in Detroit, the young professional class, are fleeing the state as quickly as possible due to the state's lack of any vibrant, strong urban centers.

Unfortunately, many in the suburbs just don't accept the reality that a strong, vibrant Michigan requires a strong, vibrant Detroit. Of course, this goes the other way, with people in the city afraid that "the suburbs" (which is a code word for white people, the way "Detroit" is a code word for black people in the suburbs) will end up taking over the city. An example is that during the last election Fremen Hendrix was painted as the candidate of the suburbs, which was taken to mean that he was too white. See also many suburban criticisms of Kwame Kilpatrick (during his campaign, not the recent scandal that saw him resign) for evidence of racism.

Once the city actually begins to operate like a proper city, things can move forward, but when it operates like black and white fiefdoms, little to no progress can be made.

One that is overweight and with an insatiable thirst for oil?
I did kinda walk into that one... But isn't an S-class about 2700kg with a pretty good appetite for fuel? 11 mpg (city), if I do the conversion from l/100km correctly?

Re: Thread Title

Or you're a dirty stinking commie and the ghost of J Edgar Hoover will come to you in the night and cross dress you while you sleep. He will then post pictures of you cross dressing all over the internet . . .

I don't see how you can take him pointing out that his employees are "at will" employees as anything but a veiled threat.

Where do you see a veil?

I don't see how you can take him pointing out that his employees are "at will" employees as anything but a veiled threat.
Easily. I would take it to be an UNVEILED threat.

I've had my Toyota egged a few times. I'm still loyal to Toyota though: I get 39 miles a gallon, and the car never needs work, and I drive my Toyotas "to the moon" (well past 200,000 miles).

I drive a Suzuki Forenza and a Harley Davidson when the weather is nice... So I do a little half and half.

Quite frankly, I want Detroit to go under... They're probably one of the biggest corporate welfare leeches in America. By '09 or '10 my state (Alabama) will pass them as the number one car maker in America, anyway... Their loss is my state's gain. Toyota, Honda, and a lot of other foreign car companies are establishing plants all over America, so where old jobs die off, new ones arise.

Frankly... I'll buy what I want. I'm not a very patriotic individual anyway so the whole patriotic argument will not sway me. I bought a domestic motorcycle because Harley's are a very good brand of motorcycle... If Ford, GM, or any other American car company can produce a long lasting, fuel efficient car... I'll look into buying. Until then, I shall stick with Japanese cars and American motorcycles.

I drive a Suzuki Forenza and a Harley Davidson when the weather is nice... So I do a little half and half.

Quite frankly, I want Detroit to go under... They're probably one of the biggest corporate welfare leeches in America. By '09 or '10 my state (Alabama) will pass them as the number one car maker in America, anyway... Their loss is my state's gain. Toyota, Honda, and a lot of other foreign car companies are establishing plants all over America, so where old jobs die off, new ones arise.

With people like this, is it any wonder why Detroit and Michigan feel abandoned by the rest of the US?

It depends on what you want to do with the truck. Mine is for work, not for show.

I don't believe any Japanese truck is rated for over a half ton. I'm probably wrong, but I've never seen one that matches the cargo capacity of my Dodge dualie.

And it was damned difficult finding a 1 ton, single cab truck, with a full-sized bed.

I see you changed something. I agree, of course. But a nice sedan would substitute nicely for a "Personal class" truck.

Yuck single cab full length boxes lol I am more of a crew cab with regular (or long but usually regular) myself

But I would agree aint going to haul 6+ head of cattle with a half tone easy and certianly not the 12 - 15 thousand pound ranges of loads that are normal

Though was not a big fan of the Dodge 1 tones ... myself when the loads go over 10 thousand or so

With people like this, is it any wonder why Detroit and Michigan feel abandoned by the rest of the US?

As I said, Michigan's loss is my state's gain... For too long Alabama has been viewed by the North as an inferior state full of nothing but poor white trash. For the long time that we were a highly impoverished state, no one rushed to our aid, when the Birmingham steel industry went down the toilet, there were few, if any, "buy American" campagins for us. You know what we got instead? Insults on the condition of our state (and we still get to this day). This begs the question, in our rising economic prosperity, why should we have any pitty for Michigan? They'll find something new to replace the gap eventually. This is the first good chance for Alabama to have a strong economy since the Civil War and I really don't want to see that ruined.

Over half a ton? Most of them.

Well, here you go, even the light Toyota Hilux fits that at ease:

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/toyota-hilux-single-cab-pick-up-range-1005003.html

"[...] Although, at 945kg, the maximum payload in the 4WD single cab is actually a little lower than the 1,085kg in its five-seater sibling. If you want to carry the maximum and arent too fussed about off-road performance, youll be wanting the 2WD single cab with its 1,170kg capacity."


Half tone bed capacity the helux does not meet that requirement its a stupid way of stating things but the half tone is bed weight not nessisarily the same thing as "payload" capacity

It is all confusing but they are not in the same class and thats for payload much less towing





Well, I just wanted to clarify, I mean the personal trucks, as in pickups and SUV, not industrial ones. There, though, Japan is quite competitive too, but not as much.

They are cool for off roading (actually great) but they just are not big enough for what I need them for ...

Uh how bout the mayors plan of buying more american cars so the plants in detroit will hire more american workers

Even if every employee of the city bought a new car from those plants in Warren every year, it would not create more jobs. It may help clot the bleeding of jobs, but new jobs would not be created.

Really? I must have missed that part. Kindly point out for me where he made that clear by quoting the article.

EDIT: Oh, and while you're at it, read the rest of the thread and respond to the several posts that point out that "foreign" car manufacturers build large numbers of cars in the US and employ Americans and then explain to us why people shouldn't buy those cars to benefit US workers.

Also, please respond to the posters who pointed out that few cars made in America are made in Detroit, and then explain how following the mayors orders to buy such cars is going to help Detroit.

Thanks, I'll wait.

He doesn't care about American cars, even Detroit cars, only Warren made cars.

"More to the point, he expects them to drive General Motors or Chrysler vehicles, since both companies have various manufacturing or assembly plants in Warren"

Thanks for waiting dear.

Tothe is quite pleased with his 1995 Dodge Neon. He wants a newer (but still first-gen) 2-door with the upgraded engine package. It handles well and is quite economical. The head gasket has been replaced so the old leak issue is gone.

Yeah, but they're both made in Spartanburg, South Carolina, not Detroit, thus likely don't count for the Mayor's purposes.

And trust me, auto workers are very much aware of where different makes and models are assembled.

edit: Apparently the Z4 is only made in Regensburg, Germany now, but my point stands.

Good point, but I did buy American.

As for the Z4, when did that change?

Good point, but I did buy American.

As for the Z4, when did that change?

August 27th, 2008 sayteh the Most Holy Wiki.

In Detroit "Buy American" doesn't really mean "Buy American" it means "Buy Michigan".

As I said, Michigan's loss is my state's gain... For too long Alabama has been viewed by the North as an inferior state full of nothing but poor white trash. For the long time that we were a highly impoverished state, no one rushed to our aid, when the Birmingham steel industry went down the toilet, there were few, if any, "buy American" campagins for us. You know what we got instead? Insults on the condition of our state (and we still get to this day). This begs the question, in our rising economic prosperity, why should we have any pitty for Michigan? They'll find something new to replace the gap eventually. This is the first good chance for Alabama to have a strong economy since the Civil War and I really don't want to see that ruined.

Just so long as you openly admit your lack of concern, or even hostility towards us. Too many Michiganders I know believe that when the new President comes in they'll fix many of the Federal issues with Michigan's economy, that we'll be embraced back into the economic fold. People need to realize that no one cares about us and that we need to address our problems ourselves rather than running for Uncle Sam for help, because he won't help us.

August 27th, 2008 sayteh the Most Holy Wiki.

In Detroit "Buy American" doesn't really mean "Buy American" it means "Buy Michigan".

Fair enough, to both sentences. I missed that bit about the move the one I was in last week made in June 08 must have been one of the last few to be made in America.

I did kinda walk into that one... But isn't an S-class about 2700kg with a pretty good appetite for fuel? 11 mpg (city), if I do the conversion from l/100km correctly?The S Class isn't representative of Mercedes, or even German, let alone European cars.

I did kinda walk into that one... But isn't an S-class about 2700kg with a pretty good appetite for fuel? 11 mpg (city), if I do the conversion from l/100km correctly?

I couldn't resist. The type of car needed in rural America, or Russia, or Africa is different from that needed in Japan or the UK or in a city in the US. If people try and drive a small efficient city car on dirt roads it will fall apart. If people drive massive trucks in cities because they think they look good they are idiots.

People should use the kind of car they need, but we should all be looking at ways of reducing environmental impact. If we are smart we can have our cake and eat it.

I couldn't resist. The type of car needed in rural America, or Russia, or Africa is different from that needed in Japan or the UK or in a city in the US. If people try and drive a small efficient city car on dirt roads it will fall apart. If people drive massive trucks in cities because they think they look good they are idiots.
Well, however, back to the subject, S-class is hardly any better off the road than others. And there's a lot of small efficient SUV on the market today. Actually, small SUV are pretty much the only ones that are still built for offroading.

Well, however, back to the subject, S-class is hardly any better off the road than others. And there's a lot of small efficient SUV on the market today. Actually, small SUV are pretty much the only ones that are still built for offroading.It's a luxury car, i.e. not representative.

Half tone bed capacity the helux does not meet that requirement its a stupid way of stating things but the half tone is bed weight not nessisarily the same thing as "payload" capacity
Doesn't it? It's known for ruggedness, and I seriously doubt that you're supposed to put less than 450kg on the bed and the rest 650kg into the two-seater cab. The Japs aren't that overweight.


It's a luxury car, i.e. not representative.
Yet the American equivalent "overweight gas-guzzler", Lincoln Town Car, weighs 2100kg, and gets 15/23 mpg.

So European cars on the upper end of the scale are even worse.

It's not a contest between America and Europe, but between US+Europe and Asia, mostly Japan.

Yet the American equivalent "overweight gas-guzzler", Lincoln Town Car, weighs 2100kg, and gets 15/23 mpg.Which would be stupid to use, since we're looking for an equivalently widespread car, not a similar car. Speaking of which, even despite gas-guzzling, the new S class is by far more environmentally friendly than American equivalents based on its life cycle. It's by far more effecient to disassemble and recycle an S class than any American equivalent.

So European cars on the upper end of the scale are even worse.

It's not a contest between America and Europe, but between US+Europe and Asia, mostly Japan.The S class is the upper end of the scale. The only other cars I can think of that would seriously be higher are Porsches, Lamborghinis, and Maibachs, which are driven by even less people.

American cars all weigh twenty tons, take forty years to do 0-60, have a turning circle the size of a continent and get 0.1 mpg.

If the mayor wants massive holes in the road from huge slow-moving weight on his roads, all his employees to be late as they can scarcely get home before they have to return to work, and the worldwide oil price to quintuple overnight, then this is a good plan:p

This concludes today's episode of "Silly exaggeration of stereotypes that nevertheless have a strong basis in fact".

If people try and drive a small efficient city car on dirt roads it will fall apart.

I ran into a problem like this last year. I was driving my Miata to drill one weekend, and the roads all the way there were complete sheets of glass (I had to hit the road around 3:00am) so while sliding down the road towards Lake Cadillac, praying to the FSM that the care would stop. I realized just then that I'd really, really wished I hadn't sold my Jeep.

Tothe is quite pleased with his 1995 Dodge Neon... The head gasket has been replaced so the old leak issue is gone.
If you'd bought a Toyota, you would never ever have to know or care what a "head gasket" even is.

American cars all weigh twenty tons, take forty years to do 0-60, have a turning circle the size of a continent and get 0.1 mpg. [...]
This concludes today's episode of "Silly exaggeration of stereotypes that nevertheless have a strong basis in fact".
This used to be so not long ago. However, a modern "American car" is one designed in Japan and built in Korea. And so, there is an increasing number of lightweight, reliable and fuel-efficient American cars today.


I realized just then that I'd really, really wished I hadn't sold my Jeep.
Wranglers FTW.

Wranglers FTW.

That's exactly what I had, a 2001 Wrangler. If only gas weren't so damned expensive.

Does an employer have the right to even suggest what you can buy?


Bloody no, he doesn't.