NationStates Jolt Archive

Please note that the below are personal observations, I'm not claiming this to be an actual trend or even a fact.

I have been told a number of times on this forum that European employees are ... well, lazier than USAmerican employees. The people making those claims usually point to the fact that working hours in the US are noticably longer, there are fewer public holidays, and the number of paid holidays is smaller as well.

Now, that much certainly is obvious.
However, for the past year now I've been working in order management/customer service for an international company. This company has its headquaters in the US (with a customer service team there), and offices in Europe, Japan and China (each with a customer service team). One of the things that struck me as very odd in this past year now was that, despite the US having in effect fewer customer to look after, and more headcount than the European office, plus working longer hours, for some reason we always end up covering for them and doing part of their work.

My BF works for another company, he's looking after their online stores. In his case, the situation is even stranger : Him and his one colleague are looking after all the European pages (about a dozen of them), and it's their job to check whenever new products are added to make sure the orders get placed correctly and process through the system without difficulty.
The US side of the company has to look after 3 pages, the headcount on their team is 3 times that of the European side. Everytime there's new products to be checked (about once a month), the team in the US works throughout the entire night to get the testing done. A job which takes my BF usually about 4 hours overtime, with him actually doing almost 4x as many tests.

Why is that? How come that it would seem that Europeans work shorter hours, yet get more done in the time? Or is this just two isolated examples? Anybody out there made similar or differing experiences?

I know if I had a chance to dump work on people five thousand miles away without any consequences, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I know if I had a chance to dump work on people five thousand miles away without any consequences, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
This.

It might also be possible that making people work long hours also inclines them more to goofing off on company time, but I'm gonna stick with DrunkenDove's theory.

I know if I had a chance to dump work on people five thousand miles away without any consequences, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

So it's all about people like me and my BF taking responsibility while others will not? And ending up doing more work because of it?

This.

It might also be possible that making people work long hours also inclines them more to goofing off on company time, but I'm gonna stick with DrunkenDove's theory.

I've been thinking that as well.. working all night? After having worked all day? In my experience, you can only work for so long in any kind of concentrated fashion. After that, your brain tends to shut down, basically.

The more one have to work without any chance or hope of a break, the less they actually want to do. Do you want to work full out 8 hours a day, 5 hours a week with maybe a dozen paid holiday days a year? (and 75% of them at Christmas and Thanksgiving)

The more one have to work without any chance or hope of a break, the less they actually want to do. Do you want to work full out 8 hours a day, 5 hours a week with maybe a dozen paid holiday days a year? (and 75% of them at Christmas and Thanksgiving)

Not really... I'm quite happy with 38h a week, 20 days vacation and around 10 bank holidays.
To be perfectly honest, even with the work we do for the US, it's not stressful, just enough work for the time.

Him and his one colleague are looking after all the European pages (about a dozen of them), and it's their job to check whenever new products are added to make sure the orders get placed correctly and process through the system without difficulty.
The US side of the company has to look after 3 pages, the headcount on their team is 3 times that of the European side.
If assumptions and calculations suggest a 12-fold productivity gap between two quite similar nations, it's a sign that something is wrong with assumptions and calculations, more than with the productivity.

To be perfectly honest, even with the work we do for the US, it's not stressful, just enough work for the time.

That's the kicker, ain't it? There's nothing more annoying than being given busy work just because the company isn't pulling enough business.

If assumptions and calculations suggest a 12-fold productivity gap between two quite similar nations, it's a sign that something is wrong with assumptions and calculations, more than with the productivity.

Well, the thing I don't get is why they would need to work throughout the night, having as it is 1) less testing to do and 2) more people to do it.
My BF said that it might have to do with the fact that they want to be seen eager and willing to do the extra hours, which apparently is held in high regard in the US.
Over here, most employers value people who get the work done without overtime a good bit higher...

The more one have to work without any chance or hope of a break, the less they actually want to do. Do you want to work full out 8 hours a day, 5 hours a week with maybe a dozen paid holiday days a year? (and 75% of them at Christmas and Thanksgiving)
Beats my current schedule.



This company has its headquaters in the US
Might have something to do with it.

Beats my current schedule.




Might have something to do with it.

With your current schedule?? :confused:

With your current schedule?? :confused:
Right now, I'm off it, but generally 12 hours a day, 7 days a week average; occasionally up to 15 hours a day.

Right now, I'm off it, but generally 12 hours a day, 7 days a week average; occasionally up to 15 hours a day.

You seem remarkably sane for someone with that schedule. Well done. I'd be on a killing spree after two weeks.

Right now, I'm off it, but generally 12 hours a day, 7 days a week average; occasionally up to 15 hours a day.

Ok, now I'm confused... what does that have to do with the compnay I work for having its headquaters in the US?

You seem remarkably sane for someone with that schedule. Well done. I'd be on a killing spree after two weeks.

Truth be told, I used to do a similar schedule for about 6 months, when the library I worked at moved to new premisses. The workload was sheer insanity at the time. But then that was not exactly a normal situation...

Ok, now I'm confused... what does that have to do with the compnay I work for having its headquaters in the US?
I meant the company's HQ being in US might have something to do with this:
despite the US having in effect fewer customer to look after, and more headcount than the European office, plus working longer hours, for some reason we always end up covering for them and doing part of their work.

I meant the company's HQ being in US might have something to do with this:

You saying they keep the headcount simply because that's their headquaters?

You saying they keep the headcount simply because that's their headquaters?

I think he's saying that the corperate headquarters cant get anything done right.

You seem remarkably sane for someone with that schedule. Well done. I'd be on a killing spree after two weeks.
I think we're supposed to be on a killing spree.

Can't say I've been sane, after a few months on this schedule, I've managed to start a personal war with my s.o. I knew for 4 years, on one internet board got myself from admin to banned, pissed off a few people on NSG, started practicing penis quigong, lost over $1,000 on Forex, and made a promise to myself to beat my drinking record of two gallons of beer.

How many breaks do you get, and how long is your lunch time?

You saying they keep the headcount simply because that's their headquaters?
In some part. And in part, they have more interaction with upper and middle management, which results in a lot of meddling, micromanagement, career affairs, and other issues.

In some part. And in part, they have more interaction with upper and middle management, which results in a lot of meddling, micromanagement, career affairs, and other issues.

Er... not really. It's a very flat management structure. Meaning there's only 2 managers between me and the head of the company, and both those managers are over here.

How many breaks do you get, and how long is your lunch time?
As many as I want, as long as I do what I have to. That is 12 hours not counting breaks and meals.


Er... not really. It's a very flat management structure. Meaning there's only 2 managers between me and the head of the company, and both those managers are over here.
Possibly it's what DrunkenDove said, then - they might be dumping the work on you, and spending work time having fun. Or maybe they just have other tasks to do.

Think of it, if US had 12 times lower productivity, would its GDP be the highest among large nations?

Possibly it's what DrunkenDove said, then - they might be dumping the work on you, and spending work time having fun. Or maybe they just have other tasks to do.

Think of it, if US had 12 times lower productivity, would its GDP be the highest among large nations?

I understand that they earn less... so maybe that's where it balances out again.
I know that in my company, the US/Canada/Mexico region is making slightly less profit than the European region.

I understand that they earn less... so maybe that's where it balances out again.
So these workers earn less, in a country that has a higher GDP and a lower taxation level.
Kinda unlikely that they'd be selected among the best, and feel particularly enthusiastic about their job.


I know that in my company, the US/Canada/Mexico region is making slightly less profit than the European region.
So if it's making slightly less profit, then this situation isn't commonplace, just specific to the section.

So these workers earn less, in a country that has a higher GDP and a lower taxation level.
Kinda unlikely that they'd be selected among the best, and feel particularly enthusiastic about their job.

Lower taxation? Really? I thought with less than 20% on average, Ireland was one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.



So if it's making slightly less profit, then this situation isn't commonplace, just specific to the section.

Well, comparing the figures to other companies in the IT sector, it seems pretty much the norm. *shrugs*

Lower taxation? Really? I thought with less than 20% on average, Ireland was one of the lowest taxed countries in the world.
Ah, Ireland. Didn't notice. I meant lower taxation than the socialism-consumed Europe as a whole.


Well, comparing the figures to other companies in the IT sector, it seems pretty much the norm. *shrugs*
Maybe. Or maybe it's greater competition in US.

Ah, Ireland. Didn't notice. I meant lower taxation than the socialism-consumed Europe as a whole.



Maybe. Or maybe it's greater competition in US.

I doubt it. It's more to do with the fact that IT hardware sells better outside of the US, as there's more production outside the US. We're not in the end-consumer market.

I doubt it. It's more to do with the fact that IT hardware sells better outside of the US,
AND it sells for a higher price than in US.


as there's more production outside the US. We're not in the end-consumer market.
Well, production is mostly in Japan and China anyway. And economically, it's a shorter way from China to US than to Europe.

AND it sells for a higher price than in US.

It sells at exactly the same price.
The prices are set by the US, and are in dollars.


Well, production is mostly in Japan and China anyway. And economically, it's a shorter way from China to US than to Europe.

I'm not really sure what China and Japan have to do with this, they're separate markets. I thought this was about Europe and North America?

It sells at exactly the same price.
The prices are set by the US, and are in dollars.
The actual price paid by the customer (not the MSRP) tends to be higher in Europe, from what I know. In US, it's all full of discounts, sales and rebates.


I'm not really sure what China and Japan have to do with this, they're separate markets. I thought this was about Europe and North America?
I mean the production is in China and Japan anyway, not in Europe or US.

The actual price paid by the customer (not the MSRP) tends to be higher in Europe, from what I know. In US, it's all full of discounts, sales and rebates.

Not in IT hardware products. The price is the same worldwide.
There's a rather intricate system of pricing to distributors and end-customers in place that ensures that the price will be exactly the same everywhere.



I mean the production is in China and Japan anyway, not in Europe or US.

In that case, why would there even be a market in North America or Europe?

Not in IT hardware products. The price is the same worldwide.
There's a rather intricate system of pricing to distributors and end-customers in place that ensures that the price will be exactly the same everywhere.
Well, what's your home PC configuration, and how much have you paid for each of the components?


In that case, why would there even be a market in North America or Europe?
Not sure what you mean. Production and market don't have to be in the same place.

Well, what's your home PC configuration, and how much have you paid for each of the components?

Got it of ebay...


Not sure what you mean. Production and market don't have to be in the same place.

And, as I said, neither my BF nor myself work for companies that produce for the end consumer market. The company I work for produces silicon chips. They are sold into production, not to end customers.

Got it of ebay...
I see.

Either way, the point I was going to make is that when I tell people what computer I have and how much I have paid for it, a lot of people act surprised... but only those who live outside US.


And, as I said, neither my BF nor myself work for companies that produce for the end consumer market. The company I work for produces silicon chips. They are sold into production, not to end customers.
Well, then it indeed might have to do a lot with US having long outsourced most of its production.

It might also be possible that making people work long hours also inclines them more to goofing off on company time

its not even actually goofing off (though that plays into it), but rather just working slower and outright absenteeism. as i recall, in many instances productivity per hour is so much higher when people work less that you can actually get more production out of people in 6 hours than you can in 8 or in fewer overall days per year, because it turns out that people just aren't built for working as we demand they do.

You seem remarkably sane for someone with that schedule. Well done. I'd be on a killing spree after two weeks.I go to school 35 hours a week, ten hours of homework, 5-6 hours of studying, have to about five to ten hours of chores to ensure that everything is in perfect order, and then I work around twenty hours of week. Yet, the real question is where did I put my chickens?:p

I go to school 35 hours a week, ten hours of homework, 5-6 hours of studying, have to about five to ten hours of chores to ensure that everything is in perfect order, and then I work around twenty hours of week.
Well, if it feels too taxing once, remember that you at least get to see the sky more than a couple hours a week!

So it's all about people like me and my BF taking responsibility while others will not? And ending up doing more work because of it?

Shit rolls down hill apparently the Americans are more important.
might have to do with your company. perhaps their management is all European or Asian or from where ever not in the US. making it appear like their is little room for promotion in the company. For me that sort of situation makes it a job instead of a career.
also we are in a bit of a economic down turn so it is very likely these might not the fields they specialize in. aka programming in C++ might be what their career was, and now they have to use Java to get by.

Well, the thing I don't get is why they would need to work throughout the night, having as it is 1) less testing to do and 2) more people to do it.
My BF said that it might have to do with the fact that they want to be seen eager and willing to do the extra hours, which apparently is held in high regard in the US.
Over here, most employers value people who get the work done without overtime a good bit higher...

Well, I know that the SAP launch (damn Germans) at my Dad's employer, he worked eleven hours a day for over seven months, whereas the rest of the American (and the German) teams cut their days off at eight hours. The only people who worked with him were the Indian guys who had been brought to Canton, and they busted their butts the entire time. The launch almost didn't happen.

Of course, this dedication also managed to get my dear ol' dad a promotion and a raise outside of the normal schedule.

Shit rolls down hill apparently the Americans are more important.
might have to do with your company. perhaps their management is all European or Asian or from where ever not in the US. making it appear like their is little room for promotion in the company. For me that sort of situation makes it a job instead of a career.
also we are in a bit of a economic down turn so it is very likely these might not the fields they specialize in. aka programming in C++ might be what their career was, and now they have to use Java to get by.

...
I'm sorry, but the above makes no sense whichever way I look at it.
Both our companies are very open for promotions, or moving from one field to another (continuing education is part of the employment, and you will get financial incentives as well as paid time of for additional education in your free time).
And I'm not too sure what Java has to do with how productive people are...

It may be a difference in organization; the US team is larger and handles more aspects of the process as a group whereas the European teams are specialized and each one focuses primarily on different aspects of the task. It's sort of like having one team that assembles an entire car as opposed to multiple, smaller teams assembling each component individually to produce the ultimate outcome.

...
I'm sorry, but the above makes no sense whichever way I look at it.
Both our companies are very open for promotions, or moving from one field to another (continuing education is part of the employment, and you will get financial incentives as well as paid time of for additional education in your free time).
And I'm not too sure what Java has to do with how productive people are...

Are you certain the American office the management is not all/mostly European ? even the appearance will lowers a workers incentive.

I am not talking about a worker in your company get more of a education and switching occupations voluntarily. ?I am talking about a worker in a specialized field who gets laid off after doing 10 to 15 years of work in said field. He might take a job in a related field but likely he wants to return to what he specialized in for 15 years and so considers it a job rather then a career.

I used C++ and java as an example because you mentioned web pages.

Are you certain the American office the management is not all/mostly European ? even the appearance will lowers a workers incentive.

I've met some of the management there, and talked to some more. Not one of them is European.
The top management over here is Irish, Australian and Canadian. Why would the nationality of a manager be an incentive for a worker? :confused:


I am not talking about a worker in your company get more of a education and switching occupations voluntarily. ?I am talking about a worker in a specialized field who gets laid off after doing 10 to 15 years of work in said field. He might take a job in a related field but likely he wants to return to what he specialized in for 15 years and so considers it a job rather then a career.

I used C++ and java as an example because you mentioned web pages.

Is that an excuse for not doing the job you're being paid for right now? :confused:

I mean, I studied librarianship for 4 years, and worked as a librarian for 2 years. Got laid of, and found work in IT. That doesn't mean that I don't do the work I'm given 100%, after all they pay me for it.

i used to work for a London based financial institution with various overseas offices including one in Boston. My role was to understand the overseas locations thoroughly and to represent them at head office in terms of culture and regulatory issues.

Boston office was a very nice and relaxed place to spend time, and each Thursday they'd spend a chunk of the afternoon socialising in the canteen, with a birthday cake paid for from petty cash, in case somebody had a birthday that week :) Stats showed that productivity for Boston office was much lower than for other places, but I would say that those people worked hard, but at a different pace to London or Hong Kong. In other offices, people were utterly hyper and lived to work, but the folks in Boston had a much better balance and took time and care over their work. I would say that they were more content with their work environment and with their work / life balance than the staff in other parts of the world.

Anecdotes ftw!

I dont know my personal experience in a small but rapidly growing company is this.

There is simply 0 hours to spare in a week ... every single employee is working 45 - 50 hour weeks + on call and miscellaneous "catch up" time.

They pay great ... the Job is challenging but there is simply not enough time in the day nor enough qualified people to do it, I do not know how more could get done by the same amount of people in a week.

Please note that the below are personal observations, I'm not claiming this to be an actual trend or even a fact.

I have been told a number of times on this forum that European employees are ... well, lazier than USAmerican employees. The people making those claims usually point to the fact that working hours in the US are noticably longer, there are fewer public holidays, and the number of paid holidays is smaller as well.

Now, that much certainly is obvious.
However, for the past year now I've been working in order management/customer service for an international company. This company has its headquaters in the US (with a customer service team there), and offices in Europe, Japan and China (each with a customer service team). One of the things that struck me as very odd in this past year now was that, despite the US having in effect fewer customer to look after, and more headcount than the European office, plus working longer hours, for some reason we always end up covering for them and doing part of their work.

My BF works for another company, he's looking after their online stores. In his case, the situation is even stranger : Him and his one colleague are looking after all the European pages (about a dozen of them), and it's their job to check whenever new products are added to make sure the orders get placed correctly and process through the system without difficulty.
The US side of the company has to look after 3 pages, the headcount on their team is 3 times that of the European side. Everytime there's new products to be checked (about once a month), the team in the US works throughout the entire night to get the testing done. A job which takes my BF usually about 4 hours overtime, with him actually doing almost 4x as many tests.

Why is that? How come that it would seem that Europeans work shorter hours, yet get more done in the time? Or is this just two isolated examples? Anybody out there made similar or differing experiences?

Depends on the people and the company... I wouldn't call European workers lazy, but the US does have a higher GDP than the EU so I imagine yours is just an isolated example. I'd say this more of a cultural thing than anything else. America has what Max Weber called, "The Protestant Work Ethic." So, generally, Americans are supposed to suck it up and work their long hours and be productive at the same time with the idea that life will get easier if you go through hell first. Anyone who doesn't work their tail off is generally seen as lazy in American society. That's probably the reason for the remarks you were talking about... We see the hours Europeans work and scoff because the idea is so foreign to us. (Wow, I actually recalled something from Sociology... I suppose you do learn while sleeping!)

I, myself, am not a member of the corporate world, so these rules don't apply to me. I am a teacher/grad student so I still have to put in lots of hours but I don't put out a measureable product.