NationStates Jolt Archive

I was listening ''Istanbul(Not Constantinople)'' by They Might Be Giants and it got me thinking:why the turks changed the name of Constantinople?I don't know,i guess they wanted to get rid of the roman and Eastern orthodox feel.but what do you think?here's the song on Youtube:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg

You too? Strange I was listening to it yesterday also.

I don't know why and I like the name Constantinople better than Istanbul, but you may be right when the Ottoman Empire invaded it in 1452(?) they would have changed it to what they called the city and what they wanted it to be known as to give it a more Islamic feel, rather than the old Constantinople which came about when the Romans took control of the city.

Well Constantine was a thoroughly unpleasant person.

Well Constantine was a thoroughly unpleasant person.

Which one?

I kinda like Istanbul better than Constantinople. It gives more character to the city. But I don't know why the Turks changed it's name. Perhaps they just wanted it be more an Islamic city than a Roman/Orthodox one. Who knows.

Which one?

Constantine I

Constantine I

I would ask which one again but I know you mean the Great one. My knowledge of this Emperor is sketchy could you please elaborate.

You too? Strange I was listening to it yesterday also.

I don't know why and I like the name Constantinople better than Istanbul, but you may be right when the Ottoman Empire invaded it in 1452(?) they would have changed it to what they called the city and what they wanted it to be known as to give it a more Islamic feel, rather than the old Constantinople which came about when the Romans took control of the city.

The official name change is only recent, though the name Istanbul is older, but hadn't been used universally (even by the Ottomans) before the Turkish Republic changed it in the 30's. It was largely a part of the effort of the Republic to try to forge a Turkish nationalist culture, and the name Constantinople worked against that. The capital was also moved away from the city to Ankara around this time, again signifying a break with the past, since Ankara had no significant royal or religious connections, whilst Istanbul had many.

I would ask which one again but I know you mean the Great one. My knowledge of this Emperor is sketchy could you please elaborate.

He had his son murdered, and also had is wife killed by having her scalded to death in hot water. Even by Roman Emperor standards he was not pleasant.

It has been called Istanbul by Muslims for a millenia. I expect that the official renaming in the 1930s came about to reinforce the idea that the city was part of the new Turkish republic and not the kingdom of Greece, a distinction that became necessary after the fall of the Ottoman empire and the territorial disputes between the successor states.

The name change was demanded by the Confederation of Bad Puns. It was felt that being able to call "Istanbullshit" whenever representatives of the Ottoman Empire/Turkey made dubious statements far outweighed the loss of easy but rarely deployed jokes about the seedy side of the great city i.e. about Constantinopoledancers.

Call it Byzantion, Byzantium, i Póli, Constantinople, Nova Roma, Miklagarð, Car'grad, Carigrad or Istanbul - I'm looking forward to paying that city a visit some time in the future...

He had his son murdered, and also had is wife killed by having her scalded to death in hot water. Even by Roman Emperor standards he was not pleasant.

Oh, is that all I thought it was going to be something major. Don't misinterpret my post I understand where you are coming from.

Oh, is that all I thought it was going to be something major. Don't misinterpret my post I understand where you are coming from.

He also began the long tradition of Christians persecuting Jews.

He also began the long tradition of Christians persecuting Jews.

A bit iffy on that one, care to support it, he certainly allowed people to follow their faith and stopped the persecution of Christians but started it.

A bit iffy on that one, care to support it, he certainly allowed people to follow their faith and stopped the persecution of Christians but started it.

Edict of Milan

Edict of Milan

Mate, are you going to make me look it up? Oh very well hold on I will edit this post after I have done so.

Ok, I just did a quick wikipedia read up (not the best source I know) but it doesn't say anything about persecution of Jews, all it says is that people were now allowed to be Christian and openly profess it, it does say that the co-authors of the Edict "declared unequivocally that the co-authors of the regulations wanted no action taken against the non-Christian cults." So sorry but I'm still not getting you.

Mate, are you going to make me look it up? Oh very well hold on I will edit this post after I have done so.

It removed various rights that Jews had, they were no longer allowed to live in Jerusalem, no longer allowed to try and convert people to their faith.

It removed various rights that Jews had, they were no longer allowed to live in Jerusalem, no longer allowed to try and convert people to their faith.

Well the article didn't make mention of that, and the document no longer exists.

Well the article didn't make mention of that, and the document no longer exists.

The document itself no longer exists but it is quoted elsewhere and information about what it contained is known.

The document itself no longer exists but it is quoted elsewhere and information about what it contained is known.

Sorry I just realised and to late it seems that I didn't clarify my post and it seemed I was calling you a liar, which was not my intention at all. I would like to see these though, as I say my knowledge on Constantine the Great was all over the place and I would like to find out more.

Which one?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/d/db/Post-329594-1124962570.jpg/200px-Post-329594-1124962570.jpg

This one.

Call it Byzantion, Byzantium, i Póli, Constantinople, Nova Roma, Miklagarð, Car'grad, Carigrad or Istanbul - I'm looking forward to paying that city a visit some time in the future...

I do too, mainly because one of the most stunning Early Christian basilicas is there: Hagia Sophia, (Church of the Holy Wisdom), which is a mosque right now.

I do too, mainly because one of the most stunning Early Christian basilicas is there: Hagia Sophia, (Church of the Holy Wisdom), which is a mosque right now.

I thought it was a museum now, and not actively used as a mosque?

I thought it was a museum now, and not actively used as a mosque?

Last time I checked on it, sadly a while ago and my memories are sketchy at best, it was used as a mosque. I'll investigate that detail and I'll get back to you. *scurries away to Google*

;)

EDIT: You're right, Maineiacs. It is a museum since 1935. It was turned into one by order of the Turkish President Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia#Museum

Hehehehe... This thread got me laughing out loud :)

Now, Turks (well, we) changed it when? About 400+ years after it is taken by the Ottoman Empire. The name is from Estambol, Armenian and as far as I know (I'm not really sure about this one but) it is much older than Constantinople - it could have been Miklagord (spelling?) but Estambol / Istanbul is easier to pronounce in Turkish.

It does not nor ever have felt more Islamic :D That part really was enough for me to shoot coke from my nose...

Cheerio!

actually the name Istanbul derives from the greek İznikmit(ἡ Πόλις). which means in the city. the official name was Constantinople but after the fall of Rome the citzens tended to simply refer to it as The city in everyday conversation. Istanbul is a Turkish attempt to pronounce what the Greeks and Armenians were calling the city. The official name remained Constantinople until 1923 when the turks had long forgot they were saying in the city in Greek when referring to their city.

the Turks really didn't rename the city they just were calling it what people there were calling it. the ottomans weren't really the hey we took over we are going to force you to say things the way we do and were one of the most tolerate empires in history (the Armenian genocide was a rare exception to the rule).

When I take over, I'm going to rename it, Plorpopolis. *nod*

He also began the long tradition of Christians persecuting Jews.Well he did spend a life time as Christian-persecuting-pagan. A change is a good as a rest, eh?

"Alleged genocide." And yes, I've just found an Article describing what you say - although the article admits this may well be wrong since Armenians seem to have records about Istanbul referring to it as Estambol - *shrug* not so important, I'm just finding this Turkish = Islamic assumptions ridiculous and funny. Turkiye has a very rich and, well, loaded cultural heritage - there are lots of reason for which we name places :)

Cheerio!

I thought it was a museum now, and not actively used as a mosque?Those lying sons-of-bitches! The BBC did a week of programs looking at how Islam is practiced in different countries. In Turkey they guy they were following was showed praying at the Hagia Sophia (I think).

Those lying sons-of-bitches! The BBC did a week of programs looking at how Islam is practiced in different countries. In Turkey they guy they were following was showed praying at the Hagia Sophia (I think).

But apparently it's being a museum since 1935.

Yes.

(not sure if there's some confusion going on, but I was talking about aunty)

Yes.

(not sure if there's some confusion going on, but I was talking about aunty)

Aunty? Pardon me, but I'm confused.

"Alleged genocide." And yes, I've just found an Article describing what you say - although the article admits this may well be wrong since Armenians seem to have records about Istanbul referring to it as Estambol - *shrug* not so important, I'm just finding this Turkish = Islamic assumptions ridiculous and funny. Turkiye has a very rich and, well, loaded cultural heritage - there are lots of reason for which we name places :)

Cheerio!

well Armenia is speculated to be related to Greek so hard to tell who called what first. My point being the Ottomans didn't show up crack a whip and demand the name be changed to something Turkish.

the Armenian incident is hard to investigate and if it did happen it happened at the sunset of the Ottoman empire due to heavy external pressure.

For good measure: http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenian_genocide.htm. Truth won't go away by furiously denying it, you know. The last paragraph of that article is rather remarkable:

Refering to the Armenian Genocide, the young German politician Adolf Hitler duly noted the half-hearted reaction of the world’s great powers to the plight of the Armenians. After achieving total power in Germany, Hitler decided to conquer Poland in 1939 and told his generals: "Thus for the time being I have sent to the East only my 'Death's Head Units' with the orders to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children of Polish race or language. Only in such a way will we win the vital space that we need. Who still talks nowadays about the Armenians?"

It does not nor ever have felt more Islamic :D That part really was enough for me to shoot coke from my nose...

Cheerio!

I posted it as a Hypothesis but knew I would be corrected if I was wrong, and I had a sneaky suspicion that I was. Though I was correct when I said Instabul was what the Turks were calling the city.

Well he did spend a life time as Christian-persecuting-pagan. A change is a good as a rest, eh?

Except he wanted with the Edict of Milan to allow people who followed a pagan faith to be allowed to continue following their faith.

Aunty? Pardon me, but I'm confused.Aunty, Beeb, BBC, British Boredcasting Corporation. They're all synonymous.

Aunty, Beeb, BBC, British Boredcasting Corporation. They're all synonymous.

Ah, I see. I only knew it as the BBC. I had no idea it was also called Beeb and Aunty. Now I know. :)

I do too, mainly because one of the most stunning Early Christian basilicas is there: Hagia Sophia, (Church of the Holy Wisdom), which is a mosque right now.

i third that one.

as a young student of architecture, i often thought that might be the most beautiful building in the world.

or second to the taj mahal.

so: isn't the opening question about as simple as asking why the soviets would rename st. petersburg?

am i missing something?

The earliest usage in writing that I know of for "Stamboul" is in the Song of Roland, one of the first European poems in the vernacular (an old form of French) to be written down, in the 11th century I think. The name was clearly not invented by the Turks (whose only contribution is the I on the front, since they don't like words starting with two consonants). The Greek for "Constantinople" is accented con-STAN-tino-POL-is, so perhaps "Stamboul" is just a slurred pronunciation from the stressed syllables.

Aunty, Beeb, BBC, British Boredcasting Corporation. They're all synonymous.

What is it with calling it Aunty? We call our ABC Aunty as well I just thought it was an Australian thing but apparently not.

For good measure: http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/Genocide/armenian_genocide.htm. Truth won't go away by furiously denying it, you know. The last paragraph of that article is rather remarkable:Hm? Who is furiously denying anything? I'm just saying if it did happen, it happened but there is no proof for or against it. Disclaimer: I'm not even saying that my country's recent approach to this issue is completely acceptable.
I posted it as a Hypothesis but knew I would be corrected if I was wrong, and I had a sneaky suspicion that I was. Though I was correct when I said Instabul was what the Turks were calling the city.I'm sorry for automatically assuming that you are assuming this "Turks = Islamic" meme then. Guess I am prone to prejudice like most people.

And about Turks calling Istanbul, Istanbul - well, we call NYC, NYC since it is it's name. Istanbul most probably (did some research, calling my Aunt :) Byzantium expert and archeologist) has Armenian roots and not Turkish. Pronunciation, of course, would change to reflect the land's holders' language.
well Armenia is speculated to be related to Greek so hard to tell who called what first. My point being the Ottomans didn't show up crack a whip and demand the name be changed to something Turkish.

the Armenian incident is hard to investigate and if it did happen it happened at the sunset of the Ottoman empire due to heavy external pressure.Agreed.

Cheerio!

*Coughs*
To my knowledge, pretty much EVERYBODY has a different name for Constantinople/whatever. The Greeks called it Byzantium, the Romans called it New Rome and Constantinople, the Turks and Arabs called it Istanbul, the Russians called it Tsargrad, and the Vikings, Hebrews, Persians and so forth all had their own names for it.

As I recall, it was only AFTER the Ottoman Empire fell that it officially became 'Istanbul'. The Ottomans more commonly called it Konstantinyye or something like that. It even appeared as such on formal documents.

As to WHY, considering the nationalistic nature of the overthrow of the Ottomans, is there need to ask? They wanted to make it clear that it was a Turkish city, not a Greek one.

Yeah, you're right, it is "Konstantiniye" meaning "Konstantin's (or Constantine's)" or some such. "-iye" is something like "york." Miklagord (in my previous post) was meant to emphasize this - it is (I'm not sure about the spelling but) what Vikings called the city.

I'm not sure about the Arabs though, I remember my old boss (an Arab) calling Istanbul by a different name than anything I know.

Cheerio!

What is it with calling it Aunty? We call our ABC Aunty as well I just thought it was an Australian thing but apparently not.I think I got told once by my parents (who used to work in TV). The BBC used to be totally vertically integrated -- made all its own programming, was very independent and a had huge budget. As a result it was often affectionately known as auntie by its employees. A genteel and maternal name, as opposed to big brother -- a harsh authoritarian paternal name for big government.

Why did Constantinople get the works? That's nobody's business but the Turks.
I can't believe four pages went by without anyone saying that sooner.

"Alleged genocide."

"So called Holocaust"...is that also part of your repetoire?

Hm? Who is furiously denying anything? I'm just saying if it did happen, it happened but there is no proof for or against it. Disclaimer: I'm not even saying that my country's recent approach to this issue is completely acceptable.

You know, no matter how 'nice' you try to be about it, sitting here claiming that 'if' it happened there's 'no proof either way' is just as disgusting as any other kind of holocaust denial.

I'm not going to derail this thread with a long discussion about Armenian genocide denial, arguments for, and against. But I am going to state that just like Holocaust deniers, people who like to call the Armenian genocide a 'myth' (even when they do it subtly with words like 'if it happened), are worthy only of ridicule.

Ah, I see. I only knew it as the BBC. I had no idea it was also called Beeb and Aunty. Now I know. :)

Well, I'd heard it called "the Beeb", but "Aunty" is a new one to me.

BTW, like the new avatar:D

Hm? Who is furiously denying anything? I'm just saying if it did happen, it happened but there is no proof for or against it.

"If it did happen, it happened." Well, it's hard to disagree with that. Kind of like - if A=B, then A=B!

But there's no "proof?" What, history isn't good enough for you? You might as well say there's no "proof" that WWI or WWII happened.

Of COURSE it happened.

Referred to by various Balkan peoples, especially Bulgarians, as Tsarigrad. No one really called it the same thing. Istanbul (the city), Byzantium, Constantinople...y'know.

He had his son murdered, and also had is wife killed by having her scalded to death in hot water. Even by Roman Emperor standards he was not pleasant.

You're not serious, right? Constantine was immensely moderate compared to numerous other Emperors... Some need no introduction, like Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Diocletian, Commodus, etc. All of the above murdered lots of people in extremely gruesome ways for religious and/or political reasons. Even Hadrian (one of the Great Roman Emperors) was more cut throat than Constantine considering he tried to wipe the Jewish religion off the face of the Earth by outlawing Mosaic Law and by executing Jewish scholars.

Personally, I think you just don't like Constantine because he established Christianity as the religion of the Empire. I'm not saying he wasn't ruthless.. But, understand that at that point in the Empire's history, you had to be ruthless or one of the other Roman Emperors (there were four when he first came into power) would knock you off. It was a giant power struggle and Constantine happened to come out on top. Him killing his wife and one of his sons does not make him the most ruthless Emperor considering that Caligula would dip Christians in oil and light them on fire to create light for his parties.

Well, I'd heard it called "the Beeb", but "Aunty" is a new one to me.

BTW, like the new avatar:D

One learns something new every day.:D

Glad you liked it. I thought, considering some things in my life, that it was fitting. ;)

One learns something new every day.:D

Glad you liked it. I thought, considering some things in my life, that it was fitting. ;)

Well, there's a story there...

Personally, I think you just don't like Constantine because he established Christianity as the religion of the Empire. I'm not saying he wasn't ruthless.. But, understand that at that point in the Empire's history, you had to be ruthless or one of the other Roman Emperors (there were four when he first came into power) would knock you off. It was a giant power struggle and Constantine happened to come out on top. Him killing his wife and one of his sons does not make him the most ruthless Emperor considering that Caligula would dip Christians in oil and light them on fire to create light for his parties.

It was basically the same thing with Diocletian, too. Both of them were more focused on establishing order and stability in the Empire, and given the situation at the time I don't think it's wise to apply 21st-century views to 4th century Rome. Many of the most ruthless emperors were also its most effective, and I don't really need to remind anybody that both Constantine and Diocletian died peacefully as opposed to being overthrown or killed by the Praetorian Guard. They also basically ensured the survival of the Empire for another 170 years, considering that the Empire was in pieces only 30 years before.

Of course, ruthlessness isn't the same as brutality or madness like Caligula or Nero were particularly fond of. That's a whole other ballpark.

Well, there's a story there...

Oh, but I´m not telling it. Still, it´s good to know someone likes the new AV. ;)

But, back to topic. I like the name Istanbul, regardless.

You know, no matter how 'nice' you try to be about it, sitting here claiming that 'if' it happened there's 'no proof either way' is just as disgusting as any other kind of holocaust denial.I wasn't try to be nice about anything - I'm not a nice person as much as I like to be - and I'm not really denying it but OK.

I'm not going to derail this thread with a long discussion about Armenian genocide denial, arguments for, and against. But I am going to state that just like Holocaust deniers, people who like to call the Armenian genocide a 'myth' (even when they do it subtly with words like 'if it happened), are worthy only of ridicule.I am really not trying to "subtly win the argument" or "subtly do anything" for that matter but hey, please, if it it is what you want go on and ridicule. I'm not going to turn this thread into something I'm not equipped enough to argue for zillions of pages - I was just trying to say I have not seen satisfactory evidence either way (and this does not mean I am subtly turning it into myth, really, I know what I am saying - strange as it may seem) and this may be because I have not read about it sufficiently.

Then again, if you want you can always go on and provide me with your proofs over a TG.

Cheerio!

You're not serious, right? Constantine was immensely moderate compared to numerous other Emperors... Some need no introduction, like Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Diocletian, Commodus, etc. All of the above murdered lots of people in extremely gruesome ways for religious and/or political reasons. Even Hadrian (one of the Great Roman Emperors) was more cut throat than Constantine considering he tried to wipe the Jewish religion off the face of the Earth by outlawing Mosaic Law and by executing Jewish scholars.

Personally, I think you just don't like Constantine because he established Christianity as the religion of the Empire. I'm not saying he wasn't ruthless.. But, understand that at that point in the Empire's history, you had to be ruthless or one of the other Roman Emperors (there were four when he first came into power) would knock you off. It was a giant power struggle and Constantine happened to come out on top. Him killing his wife and one of his sons does not make him the most ruthless Emperor considering that Caligula would dip Christians in oil and light them on fire to create light for his parties.

He was pretty brutal. and the reason he made an alliance with the Christians was that the mercenaries thought he was too dishonorable to work for.

Oh, but I´m not telling it. Still, it´s good to know someone likes the new AV. ;)

But, back to topic. I like the name Istanbul, regardless.Yep, I think it is a good name better than most - but the city, oh man, it is the population 15 mil embodiment of the term "hectic."

It is beautiful to visit, fun to have a night out or two at, excellent for Heavy Metal gigs, notorious for being a place to bump into exes and there is this beautiful thing called sea (which is the big missing part of my own life right now and for the better part of my years as someone who can pass as an adult under the right circumstances) - it is fabulous, really - until you start to spend more time than a week at a time there.

God, everything is excessive by a multiple of 10 in Istanbul - distances are too long, it takes too much to reach anywhere, too many people, too many cars, too expensive to live (someone doing my job there has to earn twice as much as I do to maintain basic life support :)) - but strange enough there are people who absolutely love the place (not really strange actually, I love the most slow paced city ever, for instance, Izmir, my hometown - lots of people find it boring there).

...and sorry for the morning Engrish :)

Cheerio!

Yep, I think it is a good name better than most - but the city, oh man, it is the population 15 mil embodiment of the term "hectic."

It is beautiful to visit, fun to have a night out or two at, excellent for Heavy Metal gigs, notorious for being a place to bump into exes and there is this beautiful thing called sea (which is the big missing part of my own life right now and for the better part of my years as someone who can pass as an adult under the right circumstances) - it is fabulous, really - until you start to spend more time than a week at a time there.

God, everything is excessive by a multiple of 10 in Istanbul - distances are too long, it takes too much to reach anywhere, too many people, too many cars, too expensive to live (someone doing my job there has to earn twice as much as I do to maintain basic life support :)) - but strange enough there are people who absolutely love the place (not really strange actually, I love the most slow paced city ever, for instance, Izmir, my hometown - lots of people find it boring there).

...and sorry for the morning Engrish :)

Cheerio!

I´ve never been to Istanbul but what I´ve seen from photographs, what I´ve sampled of the culture here in Spain, I would really love to visit it one day. It´s antiquity, it´s history, calls unto me. Besides, the Turkish seem like a lively bunch. I´m sure it´s an excellent city to explore.

No worries. My English sucks a lot coz I haven´t slept one bit.:D

I´ve never been to Istanbul but what I´ve seen from photographs, what I´ve sampled of the culture here in Spain, I would really love to visit it one day. It´s antiquity, it´s history, calls unto me. Besides, the Turkish seem like a lively bunch. I´m sure it´s an excellent city to explore.

No worries. My English sucks a lot coz I haven´t slept one bit.:DYes, it is an excellent city to explore - I can't think about living there without a serious shudder though :)

Drop me a line if you visit, I'll set my sister (who, beyond all belief, lives there :)) as a tour guide for you - she's a photographer and I don't think there's a single spot in Istanbul she did not visit :)

Cheerio!

Yes, it is an excellent city to explore - I can't think about living there without a serious shudder though :)

Drop me a line if you visit, I'll set my sister (who, beyond all belief, lives there :)) as a tour guide for you - she's a photographer and I don't think there's a single spot in Istanbul she did not visit :)

Cheerio!

I´ll have that in mind for when I visit. Thanks Bornova and İyi Günler!

I´ve never been to Istanbul but what I´ve seen from photographs, what I´ve sampled of the culture here in Spain, I would really love to visit it one day. It´s antiquity, it´s history, calls unto me. Besides, the Turkish seem like a lively bunch. I´m sure it´s an excellent city to explore.

No worries. My English sucks a lot coz I haven´t slept one bit.:D

Why do I have this inescapably fiery vision of Nanatsu going to Istanbul and becoming the Islam version of Joan of Arc, turning the reasonably moderate Muslims into a mob of fervent soldiers, as she leads fleets of BMW's filled with five-o'clock shadowed swarthy turks with designer assault rifles and Dolce and Gabbana Sunglasses, against a TOTALLY unprepared Europe...

And as she raises the sun and star banner over Paris and prepares to march/drive south to Seville, the blazing orange and red sunset sets a halo to her deep raven beauty...

Let all those who love her...FOLLOW HER!

Luc Besson could direct.

I´ll have that in mind for when I visit. Thanks Bornova and İyi Günler!Ha! Sana da! :)

("İyi günler: Good day," "Sana da: ...to you too.")
Cheerio!

You're not serious, right? Constantine was immensely moderate compared to numerous other Emperors... Some need no introduction, like Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, Domitian, Diocletian, Commodus, etc. All of the above murdered lots of people in extremely gruesome ways for religious and/or political reasons. Even Hadrian (one of the Great Roman Emperors) was more cut throat than Constantine considering he tried to wipe the Jewish religion off the face of the Earth by outlawing Mosaic Law and by executing Jewish scholars.

Personally, I think you just don't like Constantine because he established Christianity as the religion of the Empire. I'm not saying he wasn't ruthless.. But, understand that at that point in the Empire's history, you had to be ruthless or one of the other Roman Emperors (there were four when he first came into power) would knock you off. It was a giant power struggle and Constantine happened to come out on top. Him killing his wife and one of his sons does not make him the most ruthless Emperor considering that Caligula would dip Christians in oil and light them on fire to create light for his parties.

I agree he is not as bad as Caligula or Tiberius but he was not far off. Yes it was calculating ruthlessness rather than being as mad as a box of frogs. There were quite a lot of Roman Emperors and my point is that he was near the top in terms of being a nasty piece of work. You have to remember he was also at one time one of the most enthusiastic persecutors of Christians.

Personally I don't give a damn whether the Roman Empire followed Mithra, Christ or were Scientologists.

why the turks changed the name of Constantinople?I don't know,i guess they wanted to get rid of the roman and Eastern orthodox feel.but what do you think?

The Turks didn't change the name: "Istanbul" is just the turkish way of pronouncing "Costantinopolis". The "Costantin" became "Istan", and "polis" became "bul". Just as "Alexandria" became "Al-Iskandariya".

It's nothing different from the italian name for Paris (Parigi), or from the english name for Roma (Rome). Or the evolution of the name of Mediolanum into Milano, or Londinium into London, or Lugdunum into Lyon.

It was the Eastern Roman Empire who changed the city's name from "Byzantium" to "Costantinopolis".

I take it from your silence that none of you like 'Plorpopolis'.

What about Hoohooville?

I take it from your silence that none of you like 'Plorpopolis'.

What about Hoohooville?

Kevin is a nice name, couldn't we call it Kevin?

Kevin is a nice name, couldn't we call it Kevin?

Kevin is an asshole. What about Sally?

Kevin is an asshole. What about Sally?

I have never met a Susan I didn't like

Why do I have this inescapably fiery vision of Nanatsu going to Istanbul and becoming the Islam version of Joan of Arc, turning the reasonably moderate Muslims into a mob of fervent soldiers, as she leads fleets of BMW's filled with five-o'clock shadowed swarthy turks with designer assault rifles and Dolce and Gabbana Sunglasses, against a TOTALLY unprepared Europe...

Such endeavours would grind to an ignominious halt in the Balkan, if they were not smothered in blood by the regular Turkish army before said fleet of BMW's could even enter Bulgaria and Greece.

He was pretty brutal. and the reason he made an alliance with the Christians was that the mercenaries thought he was too dishonorable to work for.

Yeah nothing to do with the fact that his mother was Christian or that he became one himself.

Why do I have this inescapably fiery vision of Nanatsu going to Istanbul and becoming the Islam version of Joan of Arc, turning the reasonably moderate Muslims into a mob of fervent soldiers, as she leads fleets of BMW's filled with five-o'clock shadowed swarthy turks with designer assault rifles and Dolce and Gabbana Sunglasses, against a TOTALLY unprepared Europe...

And as she raises the sun and star banner over Paris and prepares to march/drive south to Seville, the blazing orange and red sunset sets a halo to her deep raven beauty...

Let all those who love her...FOLLOW HER!

Luc Besson could direct.

*grins, she just grins*
:D:D:D

Ha! Sana da! :)

("İyi günler: Good day," "Sana da: ...to you too.")
Cheerio!

*takes notes and chucks up Turkish as another possible language to master*

De nada.:)

*takes notes and chucks up Turkish as another possible language to master*

De nada.:)

Nanatsu, like all angels, speaks all languages, that her warnings unto Men may be clear, and none shall take refuge from their own culpability behind the obfuscation of tongues...

Wait, esperanto. She doesn't speak esperanto, 'cause, you know.

Nanatsu, like all angels, speaks all languages, that her warnings unto Men may be clear, and none shall take refuge from their own culpability behind the obfuscation of tongues...

Wait, esperanto. She doesn't speak esperanto, 'cause, you know.

Why, thank you Hammurab. But I like to refer to myself more as a fallen angel than anything else. Clearly, the better to tempt men into falling in my claws.

As for Esperanto, how many people actually speak it currently? :tongue:

I was listening ''Istanbul(Not Constantinople)'' by They Might Be Giants and it got me thinking:why the turks changed the name of Constantinople?I don't know,i guess they wanted to get rid of the roman and Eastern orthodox feel.but what do you think?here's the song on Youtube:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vsQrKZcYtqg
Because Constantine was just too badass for their not entirely awesome country at that point.

Because Constantine was just too badass for their not entirely awesome country at that point.

Constantine was an opportunist and perhaps had an excellent PR agent by his side.

Constantine was an opportunist and perhaps had an excellent PR agent by his side.
Yes. A successful ruler, then.

Yes. A successful ruler, then.

Just goes to show the more things change, the more they stay the same.