NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes. The pro-life position merely seeks to ban abortions it does not seek to require people to not put the children up for adoption. Government should stay out of the lives of families. Supporting chidlren is the role of the parents not the government.

Having children should be the role of parents and not the government, too.

I'm just surprised by how irresponsible Palin seems to be by accepting the VP nomination even though she's now the mother of an infant with Down syndrome and an underage mother. You would think that someone who claims to care about family this much would have somewhat different priorities.

It's a perfectly fine position to take, but Heikoku is shockingly juvenile. In a weird way, he confirms the Republicans claims that there's such a thing as the "angry left". He's irrational and psychotic. He acts like every time he was called "anti-American" that George Bush touched his childhood self in inappropriate places.

1- Bush WAS overeager to go to war and DID lie about it.

2- We're talking about an approximate figure of 700,000 people DEAD. OR MORE. You expect a very calm reaction because?

3- I'll only be confirming the "angry left" thing if the people that attacked me confirm that there is a "nazi Right". Do they?

I'm just surprised by how irresponsible Palin seems to be by accepting the VP nomination even though she's now the mother of an infant with Down syndrome and an underage mother. You would think that someone who claims to care about family this much would have somewhat different priorities.
yes but she is never ever going to get this chance again.

she has a husband, a mother, and will have lots of money to hire extra help to take up the slack.

what ambitious person could let this chance go by?

I am pretty sure that the demand for healthy babies exceeds supply. At least tha tis what I always heard. I know that there are a lot of popular myths out there though and maybe this is one. It just seems tha tif we had lots of healthy babies that were available for adoption people would not need to go to other countries to adopt babies.

People go to other countries to adopt because the adoption laws in many countries are much more lenient than in the U.S. That being said, even if adoption laws in the U.S. made adoption quick and cheap, there would still be orphanages and group homes full of "unadoptable" children: children who are too old (not cute little silent babies anymore), children who aren't racially preferred, children with medical complications, etc. Yes, some people do go out of their way to adopt kids with special needs, but they are few and far between. More often than not, those kids get shuffled through foster homes and group homes, receive inadequate medical attention, and then get kicked out onto the street when they turn 18 with a couple hundred bucks at most. Great alternative, indeed.

I'm just surprised by how irresponsible Palin seems to be by accepting the VP nomination even though she's now the mother of an infant with Down syndrome and an underage mother. You would think that someone who claims to care about family this much would have somewhat different priorities.

You would think that senator Biden, who jumped the gun and swore himself into the Senate at the hospital bed of his child after his wife and daughter died in a car wrek would have somewhat different priorities...

As per wikipedia,

His wife and infant daughter died in a car accident shortly after he was first elected to the Senate in 1972. His two sons, Beau and Hunter, were seriously injured in the accident, but both eventually made full recoveries. Biden was sworn into office from their bedside.

Go figure.

1- Bush WAS overeager to go to war and DID lie about it.

Yeah. And? He's not going to come to your house, apologize, and offer to...you know.

2- We're talking about an approximate figure of 700,000 people DEAD. OR MORE. You expect a very calm reaction because?

This sort of stuff happens all the time. It's business as usual, I wouldn't advise that you get your panties in a bundle about it.

3- I'll only be confirming the "angry left" thing if the people that attacked me confirm that there is a "nazi Right". Do they?

You're too easy.

Great alternative, indeed.

So, even if that claim is true, let's put them out of their misery and not give them a chance to decide for themselves?

Yeah. And? He's not going to come to your house, apologize, and offer to...you know.

Donate his organs so I can sell them and buy a house?

So, even if that claim is true, let's put them out of their misery and not give them a chance to decide for themselves?

Or prevent the misery in the first plac by not having babies that are going to end up being unwanted.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080903/pl_politico/20576;_ylt=AixyvQFhAmIGU56Yxt2VN35snwcF

I love live mikes, don't you? :D

You would think that senator Biden, who jumped the gun and swore himself into the Senate at the hospital bed of his child after his wife and daughter died in a car wrek would have somewhat different priorities...

As per wikipedia,



Go figure.
senator biden was home every evening. as sole support of his family was he supposed to go on welfare in order to stay home with his kids?

Donate his organs so I can sell them and buy a house?

Actually, I was thinking give two pay-speeches and give you the proceeds (likely > $250,000 apiece), then do that.

Actually, I was thinking give two pay-speeches and give you the proceeds (likely > $250,000 apiece), then do that.

Who the hell would pay to hear HIM speak? :p

Who the hell would pay to hear HIM speak? :p

My university did, for one...but he donated the money to some cause or another...I think it might have had to do with AIDS.

My university did, for one...but he donated the money to some cause or another...I think it might have had to do with AIDS.

...and spreading it through abstinence-only programs?

...and spreading it through abstinence-only programs?

No, I think it was a private program to provide meds to orphans in Africa whose lifespan is, like, ten years with the meds.

Or prevent the misery in the first plac by not having babies that are going to end up being unwanted.

Kinda what I meant, though you do put it better than myself. "out of their misery" = "not having babies" = abortion? Yes?

senator biden was home every evening. as sole support of his family was he supposed to go on welfare in order to stay home with his kids?

And Governor Palin wouldn't be home every evening? My point was that, despite the governorship and VP nomination, she remains close-knit with the family. It just sounds an awful lot like she's being attacked for not caring, when I beg to differ.

Kinda what I meant, though you do put it better than myself. "out of their misery" = "not having babies" = abortion? Yes?

It means not bringing a human being into the world that is unwanted by its biological parents and will most likely be unwanted by adoptive parents, yes. But please, tell me more about your fascinating idea to force women to carry pregnancies to term, go through the danger of labor, give babies up for adoption, and then let the children spend 18 years as wards of the state before they're dumped on the street.

And Governor Palin wouldn't be home every evening? My point was that, despite the governorship and VP nomination, she remains close-knit with the family. It just sounds an awful lot like she's being attacked for not caring, when I beg to differ.
well her family WILL suffer. as all families of busy executives suffer on some level. we might hope that the benefits will far outweigh the detriments though. that is HER problem and not particularly relevant to whether or not she is qualified for the job.

on an interesting side note, DR LAURA thinks that ms palin is a bad choice--mostly because of the family issue (of course).

Kinda what I meant, though you do put it better than myself. "out of their misery" = "not having babies" = abortion? Yes?

No. THEY implies a THEY. There is no THEY. There is only a potential that is never realized.

You might as well be saying that me not marrying my first girlfriend put all of our potential children out of their misery.

You would think that senator Biden, who jumped the gun and swore himself into the Senate at the hospital bed of his child after his wife and daughter died in a car wrek would have somewhat different priorities...

Jumped the gun? On what, exactly? Do you have another source besides Wikipedia, because the bit you quoted seems to state that he was elected to the Senate, his family was in a terrible car accident, and instead of staying in D.C. to be sworn in he went to the hospital where his sons were in serious condition and they swore him in there.

What a monster?

no its not pro choice because if her daughter had made a different decision her mother would have done her best to deny her choice.
No, I think that like Dan Quayle (who came right out and stated this position, without realizing what he was saying) she probably believes that HER daughter's wishes should be respected; only OTHER PEOPLE's daughters should be denied any choice in the matter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080903/pl_politico/20576;_ylt=AixyvQFhAmIGU56Yxt2VN35snwcF

I love live mikes, don't you? :D

That is absolutely delicious.

No, I think that like Dan Quayle (who came right out and stated this position, without realizing what he was saying) she probably believes that HER daughter's wishes should be respected; only OTHER PEOPLE's daughters should be denied any choice in the matter.
yeah.

maybe.

her position on abortion is so unreasonable that its hard to judge what she might have done if her daughter had wanted an abortion.

That is absolutely delicious.
oooo thanks for responding to that post, i had missed it.

i am SOOO going to watch ms palin's speech tonight. not that she has to be more than a trained parrot but it should be interesting.

her position on abortion is so unreasonable that its hard to judge what she might have done if her daughter had wanted an abortion.

Who says she didn't?

Who says she didn't?
true....

ya know, if i were the baby-daddy's mother i would have extracted promises from the party for his cooperation. a new car, a free ride to the university of his choice (even if he isnt qualified to get in) a nice house in alaska to come back to.

true....

ya know, if i were the baby-daddy's mother i would have extracted promises from the party for his cooperation. a new car, a free ride to the university of his choice (even if he isnt qualified to get in) a nice house in alaska to come back to.

Well, he was qualified to get in SOMETHING...

Well, he was qualified to get in SOMETHING...
he is sex on skates. he will be verrry popular in DC if they get there.

he is sex on skates. he will be verrry popular in DC if they get there.

Sex on skates? o_O

Sex on skates? o_O
i read it somewhere. he IS a good looking young man but ....perhaps a bit unsophisticated for DC.

i read it somewhere. he IS a good looking young man but ....perhaps a bit unsophisticated for DC.
A bit earthy, aye.

Who says she didn't?

Yeah but why did they word the statement that they were proud of her decision? This flies in the face of pro-life people. The should have never been a choice. Of course she was having the baby is the bottom line. Not she was going to keep the baby after it was born instead of giving it up for adobtion but she had chosen to have the baby.

on an interesting side note, DR LAURA thinks that ms palin is a bad choice--mostly because of the family issue (of course).

Aw, man. Now I almost want to support Palin just to spite Dr. Laura.

Why must people I loathe oppose each other, so that I can't so easily loathe them both simultaneously?

Yeah but why did they word the statement that they were proud of her decision? This flies in the face of pro-life people. The should have never been a choice. Of course she was having the baby is the bottom line. Not she was going to keep the baby after it was born instead of giving it up for adobtion but she had chosen to have the baby.

On top of that, what sex-ed policies were in practice in Bristol's school or at home? I'll guess abstinence -- and if that is the case, where's the hue and cry for a Republican, socially conservative stalwart's own daughter not benefitting from abstinence sex-ed? I WANT MY HUE AND CRY, DAMMIT!

Aw, man. Now I almost want to support Palin just to spite Dr. Laura.

Why must people I loathe oppose each other, so that I can't so easily loathe them both simultaneously?
i know what you mean.

i comfort myself with the knowledge that dr laura doesnt like her because of her anti-feminist stance--she cant support a woman who would be so ambitious when her children are small (even though dr laura did the same thing in the radio biz)

and that *I* oppose her because she is not ready for the job of vice president.

On top of that, what sex-ed policies were in practice in Bristol's school or at home? I'll guess abstinence -- and if that is the case, where's the hue and cry for a Republican, socially conservative stalwart's own daughter not benefitting from abstinence sex-ed? I WANT MY HUE AND CRY, DAMMIT!

If you want quality sex ed, do what I did, my friend.

Join the Raelian Movement!

If you want quality sex ed, do what I did, my friend.

Join the Raelian Movement!
*ahem*

that wasnt YOU. that was jhanannam.

On top of that, what sex-ed policies were in practice in Bristol's school or at home? I'll guess abstinence -- and if that is the case, where's the hue and cry for a Republican, socially conservative stalwart's own daughter not benefitting from abstinence sex-ed? I WANT MY HUE AND CRY, DAMMIT!

It's OK If You're A Republican.

*ahem*

that wasnt YOU. that was jhanannam.

Jhahannam and I BOTH joinged the Raelian movement, and received our Cellular Transmission ceremony from Rael himself at the Raelian North American Seminar at the Alexis Park Hotel in Las Vegas Nevada.

Jhahannam got thrown out for not posessing a body; Raelians specifically and explicitly reject the concept of the "soul".

Plus, the Raelian Angels got sick of him clumsily hitting on them.

Jhahannam and I BOTH joinged the Raelian movement, and received our Cellular Transmission ceremony from Rael himself at the Raelian North American Seminar at the Alexis Park Hotel in Las Vegas Nevada.

Jhahannam got thrown out for not posessing a body; Raelians specifically and explicitly reject the concept of the "soul".

Plus, the Raelian Angels got sick of him clumsily hitting on them.
he would never have lasted with them anyway.

Plus, the Raelian Angels got sick of him clumsily hitting on them.

Now that can be really awkward. Did the clumsiness by any chance have something to do with substance abuse?

Yeah, why would anyone distrust the current government? Can't fathom a reason why.

That said, I really believe the administration believed there would be WMD's. I think they set it up with the belief it would turn out to be true. However, if they actually had credible intel, we'd have found the WMD's and relatively quickly. They didn't and we didn't.

WHo cares about WMDs anyway? That is not the point of why we went to war. That is like bumper sticker liberal garbage. I cannot stand a lot of stuff about Bush but do not go disparaging the war. It is idiotic and disrespectful.

Were there WMDs? No.

Did your government scare you into submission? Yes.

Were opponents of the war called anti-American and US-haters for being against that useless bloodshed in an attempt to slander them into submission? FUCKING YES.

Unless you go right ahead and tell me where the hell the WMDs are or are willing to go beat up the morons that tried to slander people like me into submission, you don't get to express any annoyance at ALL about me pointing out the kind of mistake and crime that bloodshed was.

I think you missed a lot of the points of the war you anti-American peacenik! Dictators all around the world love sheep like you. You people keep them in power. For shame!

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby and even prouder to become grandparents," Sarah and Todd Palin said in their brief statement. This is the direct quote from Palin's statement on her daughter's pregnancy. If a decision was made is that not pro-choice?

Not really. These people have choice only because it isnt banned. They do not want choice but as long as there is choice they are happy when people choose to not abort.

Now that can be really awkward. Did the clumsiness by any chance have something to do with substance abuse?

Jhahannam solely abuses LSD, which is hard to find, so he's been sober for...well, always.

Having children should be the role of parents and not the government, too.

I am not sure where you are going with this but I agree.

People go to other countries to adopt because the adoption laws in many countries are much more lenient than in the U.S. That being said, even if adoption laws in the U.S. made adoption quick and cheap, there would still be orphanages and group homes full of "unadoptable" children: children who are too old (not cute little silent babies anymore), children who aren't racially preferred, children with medical complications, etc. Yes, some people do go out of their way to adopt kids with special needs, but they are few and far between. More often than not, those kids get shuffled through foster homes and group homes, receive inadequate medical attention, and then get kicked out onto the street when they turn 18 with a couple hundred bucks at most. Great alternative, indeed.

this is why we need abortion and lots of it is good for society.

"Are You Ready For Help?
Find Individualized Eating Disorder Treatment Options-You're Not Alone."

Google ad for this topic... Hrm. I believe they are trying to tell us something. Not only is Palin's daughter pregnant, but she has an eating disorder. The republicans must be trying to play the victim of society card.

Palin's family values are one big steaming pile of fail. Other than that she seems ok.

Here's Palin's latest response on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

I think you missed a lot of the points of the war you anti-American peacenik! Dictators all around the world love sheep like you. You people keep them in power. For shame!

You were trying to get a reaction from me. You got one. I reported you.

Here is a list of governors -

Can you list a quality that made you pick her over every other Republican Governor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_United_States_Governors

Jindal was 100% pro-life is equally an outsider and has already been vetted.

Or Pawlenty, or Crist, or any number of other governors.

Or, perhaps, we could look for legislative experience for the position that is the President of the Senate.

Nah, that's just sensible. No need for sensible when electing politicians.

Don't be stupid the term sensible politics is an oxymoron.

But the question is, how many of these governors weren't asked and declined? Was Palin the first pick by McCain and his campaign team? Or was she a fa;; back option?

That is not the point of why we went to war.
...
what

I just hate that I was beaten with ad hominem. I hate that I lost to such an idiotic move. I, the guy that studies speech and language for a living, got beaten by an ad hominem and by appeals to fear, by argument ad metum.

You lost, or so you say and now your bitching about it, gee I never knew you were such a sore loser.

But seriously how come you get so agro about being called Anti-American? Plus I doubt you are going to make them fell guilty about any of it.

You lost, or so you say and now your bitching about it, gee I never knew you were such a sore loser.

But seriously how come you get so agro about being called Anti-American? Plus I doubt you are going to make them fell guilty about any of it.

Because it's a tactic aimed at shutting the opponent up. And if I make them feel stupid it'll be good. :p

Regardless, I was right, then, didn't I? And I suffered for it, didn't I? So I get to rub it in their faces and make them suffer. It's the way things go.

Here's Palin's latest response on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

Now that would be funny, just to see someone do this at the Republican National Convention

Because it's a tactic aimed at shutting the opponent up. And if I make them feel stupid it'll be good. :p

Why would it make them feel stupid, you admit to losing that would make them feel god about themselves.

Why would it make them feel stupid, you admit to losing that would make them feel god about themselves.

I never admitted to THEM that I lost. ;)

""Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America; he's worried that someone won't read them their rights." - Palin

Only the Republicans would use the idea of rights as an insult.

And Governor Palin wouldn't be home every evening? My point was that, despite the governorship and VP nomination, she remains close-knit with the family. It just sounds an awful lot like she's being attacked for not caring, when I beg to differ.
No, she is being attacked for applying one moral standard to her own family while proclaiming a different moral standard for the rest of the US. That's not called caring. That's called hypocrisy.

She's also being attacked for being the one who dragged her pregnant daughter into the political spotlight in the first place.

Those are two of the many, many points brought up against Ms. Palin.

""Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America; he's worried that someone won't read them their rights." - Palin

Only the Republicans would use the idea of rights as an insult.

So, if a VP's role is that of the attack dog, and Palin, a female, is performing it, what does that make her?

No, I think it was a private program to provide meds to orphans in Africa whose lifespan is, like, ten years with the meds.
Bush does not give any money to any African health program that does not promote abstinence.

She's also being attacked for being the one who dragged her pregnant daughter into the political spotlight in the first place.

I Can't Believe It's Not Hillary is merely following a Vice Presidential precedent.

Namely Dick parading Mary around and then crying Gay H8 when critics opened up on her basically being an Orientation Traitor working for Daddy.

I never admitted to THEM that I lost. ;)

Ah

The message you have entered is to short please enter at least 6 characters.

""Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America; he's worried that someone won't read them their rights." - Palin

Only the Republicans would use the idea of rights as an insult.

Im stunned. Really.

yes but she is never ever going to get this chance again.

she has a husband, a mother, and will have lots of money to hire extra help to take up the slack.

what ambitious person could let this chance go by?

True. How often does anyone get a chance to fail so spectacularly and look like such a fool in eyes of the world for days at a stretch? What ambitious person, upon being offered such a chance, would look at their lives -- full of ethics investigations, pregnant, unmarried daughters, brand new special-needs babies, seccessionists, political flip-flops and moose waiting to be skinned -- and say anything other than "I'm on my way to Minneapolis! Yeehah!"

the message you have entered is to short please enter at least 6 characters.

lol!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080903/pl_politico/20576;_ylt=AixyvQFhAmIGU56Yxt2VN35snwcF

I love live mikes, don't you? :D
Beautiful. Heartwarming. :D I especially liked these parts:

Noonan's blunt call contrasted with her conflicted column today saying Palin "could become a transformative political presence."
Oh, I'm sure she will be. In fact, I'm praying for it. I would love nothing more than to see her transform the Republican party -- preferably into election losers and, later, back into sane people once they wake up and realize what they just did.

UPDATE: Noonan tries to explain her remarks, and says that what's "over" isn't, she meant, McCain's campaign, but that what's over is the truth to the belief that "whatever the base of the Republican party thinks is what America thinks."
Well, hell, I could have told her that years ago.

I love it when they try to explain what they meant. They have to do that so often.

True. How often does anyone get a chance to fail so spectacularly and look like such a fool in eyes of the world for days at a stretch? What ambitious person, upon being offered such a chance, would look at their lives -- full of ethics investigations, pregnant, unmarried daughters, brand new special-needs babies, seccessionists, political flip-flops and moose waiting to be skinned -- and say anything other than "I'm on my way to Minneapolis! Yeehah!"

Part of her appeal is that she appears to be a regular person based on her family. Really how many families are picture perfect? I think most people could identify with hers.

As for her passing on this chance she would have been stupid to do so. Have to agree with Ashmoria here. I am close to Palins age and wouldn't turn down the job if asked to do so. I would say so even though I know skeletons would be dragged out. That's just life of being a politician. Also once everything is dragged out there is nothing else to hide. A big burden is lifted off ones shoulders if they have nothing to hide anymore.

I don't know why you make such a big thing out of this. It's nothing special, it always happens, and will happen for as long as nationalists exist in the US.
Yeah, right, who cares if you criticize the government or blow the whistle on governmental wrongdoing and get called "Anti-American" or even "traitor" and get accused of "aiding and abetting the enemy" for it? Who gives a flip if even members of Congress or the president's staff did that to the critics?

People just let that kind of lightweight stuff roll off their backs. It's not as if anyone ever suffered from such talk. It's not as if there was ever a time in US history when people who criticized the government were denied work, hounded by police and government agents, imprisoned for years, forced to emmigrate just to earn a living. It's not as if people had their careers, their whole lives destroyed by rumors and baseless accusations. It's not as if anyone ever died as a result.

Oh, wait...Actually that did happen in the US. Twice, in fact.

But pfft. Why would anyone take the exact same kind of accusatory rhetoric seriously now?

Yeah, right, who cares if you criticize the government or blow the whistle on governmental wrongdoing and get called "Anti-American" or even "traitor" and get accused of "aiding and abetting the enemy" for it? Who gives a flip if even members of Congress or the president's staff did that to the critics?

People just let that kind of lightweight stuff roll off their backs. It's not as if anyone ever suffered from such talk. It's not as if there was ever a time in US history when people who criticized the government were denied work, hounded by police and government agents, imprisoned for years, forced to emmigrate just to earn a living. It's not as if people had their careers, their whole lives destroyed by rumors and baseless accusations. It's not as if anyone ever died as a result.

Oh, wait...Actually that did happen in the US. Twice, in fact.

But pfft. Why would anyone take the exact same kind of accusatory rhetoric seriously now?

Senator McCarthy would like a word with you

Senator McCarthy would like a word with you

In small room at Guantanamo Bay.

Part of her appeal is that she appears to be a regular person based on her family. Really how many families are picture perfect? I think most people could identify with hers.
Yes, I believe Jerry Springer's audience is quite large.

As for her passing on this chance she would have been stupid to do so. Have to agree with Ashmoria here. I am close to Palins age and wouldn't turn down the job if asked to do so. I would say so even though I know skeletons would be dragged out. That's just life of being a politician. Also once everything is dragged out there is nothing else to hide. A big burden is lifted off ones shoulders if they have nothing to hide anymore.
No, actually, she's stupid. If she was smart, she would have declined the offer, politely, gratefully, and publicly (in coordination with the McCain camp as to timing) so that everyone would know it had been offered to her, and then she would have gotten her house in order -- cleared up all those skeletons and question marks -- and set about as Governor making herself a viable player for McCain's second term campaign.

But she is not smart. She's just ambitious. Ambition + lack of smart = poor decision-making.

In small room at Guantanamo Bay.

Where you will be not-torture-waterboarded.

Ambition + lack of smart = poor decision-making.

You forgot "= The Best 8 Years of the United States that only a CommieLiberalIslamoFascist would call bad."

Senator McCarthy would like a word with you

In small room at Guantanamo Bay.
Lots of people want a word with me. McCarthy can take a number and wait his turn.

You forgot "= The Best 8 Years of the United States that only a CommieLiberalIslamoFascist would call bad."
Yeah, that too. ;)

Senator McCarthy would like a word with you

To show off my ignorance (again), when was the other time the Muravyets mentioned?

Yeah, right, who cares if you criticize the government or blow the whistle on governmental wrongdoing and get called "Anti-American" or even "traitor" and get accused of "aiding and abetting the enemy" for it? Who gives a flip if even members of Congress or the president's staff did that to the critics?

People just let that kind of lightweight stuff roll off their backs. It's not as if anyone ever suffered from such talk. It's not as if there was ever a time in US history when people who criticized the government were denied work, hounded by police and government agents, imprisoned for years, forced to emmigrate just to earn a living. It's not as if people had their careers, their whole lives destroyed by rumors and baseless accusations. It's not as if anyone ever died as a result.

Oh, wait...Actually that did happen in the US. Twice, in fact.

But pfft. Why would anyone take the exact same kind of accusatory rhetoric seriously now?

:fluffle:

Thanks.

To show off my ignorance (again), when was the other time the Muravyets mentioned?
Oooh, oooh, I know!

It was right after WW1, when Wilson signed the Espionage Act of 1917 (I think that was the year), which made it a crime to criticize the government. People were arrested for sending letters to newspaper editors. Police carried out dragnet raids on immigrant neighborhoods in American cities, hunting for "anarchists" and carrying away hundreds of young men at a time, some of whom did not come back for years. American citizens learned to live in fear of the knock on the door in the middle of the night and the neighbor who might be an informant. My grandparents were lucky enough (:eek2:) to have lived through both that time and the McCarthy years. I used to think they were just paranoid. Then I realized that even if you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Grandma and Grandpa had damned good reason to feel the way they did about the government.

EDIT: Oh and, yeah, having learned that history lesson, I am not really interested in taking a "meh" attitude towards what Bush/Cheney and their troops of trained dogs did to modern critics.

Oooh, oooh, I know!

It was right after WW1, when Wilson signed the Espionage Act of 1917 (I think that was the year), which made it a crime to criticize the government. People were arrested for sending letters to newspaper editors. Police carried out dragnet raids on immigrant neighborhoods in American cities, hunting for "anarchists" and carrying away hundreds of young men at a time, some of whom did not come back for years. My grandparents were lucky enough (:eek2:) to have lived through both that time and the McCarthy years. I used to think they were just paranoid. Then I realized that even if you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

And don't forget the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 following the Quasi-War with France under John Adams's term in office.

Looky.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2008/09/waiting_for_palin.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Another of this convention’s oddities: The third day is more anticipated than the fourth day. It’s possible that Sarah Palin’s speech tonight will get higher ratings than John McCain’s speech tomorrow.

To understand how curious the country is about Palin, consider this report on the Web site FiveThirtyEight.com: “Since her name was announced as John McCain's running mate, Sarah Palin has generated more US-based internet search traffic than Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, Michael Phelps and Barack Obama combined.” Now that’s celebrity!



What? Palin is a *gasp* celebrity?!? By John McCain's own admission, that means we should not vote for her! Or, is it ok to worship/vote for a "celebrity" when they are Republicans? *Thinks of Reagan* Oh, ok, I get how that works. Republicans can be celebrities. Just not democrats.

Im stunned. Really.
I wish I was, but even at my tender young (ahem) age, even I've become desensitised to such appalling soundbites.
One does pause to wonder how the governor of Alaska of all places knows AlQ is planning to attack the US. What info has she got?

I read today that the republicans are going all out in dragging this election down as far as possible, and then further. They now whining that all this attention on Palin is due to - wait for it - sexism.
Yup. They've used the S card. Question her about any of her prior activities and apparently it's sexist. You're a Chauvanist if you disagree with her:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122031229774188795.html

This coming for a party that said such things about Hilary Clinton as:
– In November 2007, when a questioner asked “How do we beat the bitch [Clinton]?,” McCain replied, “That’s an excellent question.”
– In 1998, McCain made a lesbian joke that referenced Clinton’s daughter: “Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”
– In May 2008, McCain adviser Alex Castellanos said, “Her problem is she’s Hillary Clinton. And some women, by the way, are named bitch, and it’s accurate.”
– In March 2007, CNN host Glenn Beck said that Clinton’s “stereotypical” voice was “nagging,” adding that it “just sticks in your ear like an ice pick.”

But these weren't sexist, okay? What is sexist is questioning Palin about her policies and beliefs.

Again, I'd like - I mean I would really like - to be staggered by their total, blatant hypocrisy, but I'm so numbed by it the best I can do is shake my head sadly.

Oooh, oooh, I know!

It was right after WW1, when Wilson signed the Espionage Act of 1917 (I think that was the year), which made it a crime to criticize the government. People were arrested for sending letters to newspaper editors. Police carried out dragnet raids on immigrant neighborhoods in American cities, hunting for "anarchists" and carrying away hundreds of young men at a time, some of whom did not come back for years. American citizens learned to live in fear of the knock on the door in the middle of the night and the neighbor who might be an informant. My grandparents were lucky enough (:eek2:) to have lived through both that time and the McCarthy years. I used to think they were just paranoid. Then I realized that even if you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Gee, yeah I hadn't heard of that particular piece of American history before.

I wish I was, but even at my tender young (ahem) age, even I've become desensitised to such appalling soundbites.
One does pause to wonder how the governor of Alaska of all places knows AlQ is planning to attack the US. What info has she got?

I read today that the republicans are going all out in dragging this election down as far as possible, and then further. They now whining that all this attention on Palin is due to - wait for it - sexism.
Yup. They've used the S card. Question her about any of her prior activities and apparently it's sexist. You're a Chauvanist if you disagree with her:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122031229774188795.html

This coming for a party that said such things about Hilary Clinton as:
– In November 2007, when a questioner asked “How do we beat the bitch [Clinton]?,” McCain replied, “That’s an excellent question.”
– In 1998, McCain made a lesbian joke that referenced Clinton’s daughter: “Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”
– In May 2008, McCain adviser Alex Castellanos said, “Her problem is she’s Hillary Clinton. And some women, by the way, are named bitch, and it’s accurate.”
– In March 2007, CNN host Glenn Beck said that Clinton’s “stereotypical” voice was “nagging,” adding that it “just sticks in your ear like an ice pick.”

But these weren't sexist, okay? What is sexist is questioning Palin about her policies and beliefs.

Again, I'd like - I mean I would really like - to be staggered by their total, blatant hypocrisy, but I'm so numbed by it the best I can do is shake my head sadly.


This is how I am too. I was being sarcastic when I said I was stunned;)

And don't forget the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 following the Quasi-War with France under John Adams's term in office.
Oh, right, yeah. So that makes it three times in US history. Three and a half if you include Bush/Cheney's half-assed flirting with it.

And don't forget the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 following the Quasi-War with France under John Adams's term in office.
You could also add in the internment of Japanese-born US citizens during WWII - 120,000 of them were taken from their homes and crammed into camps for the best part of the war:
http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW2/japan_internment_camps.htm

Lots of people want a word with me. McCarthy can take a number and wait his turn.
Lots of ppl want to have a word with me too. Well usually two words and one of them is "off".

I wish I was, but even at my tender young (ahem) age, even I've become desensitised to such appalling soundbites.
One does pause to wonder how the governor of Alaska of all places knows AlQ is planning to attack the US. What info has she got?

I read today that the republicans are going all out in dragging this election down as far as possible, and then further. They now whining that all this attention on Palin is due to - wait for it - sexism.
Yup. They've used the S card. Question her about any of her prior activities and apparently it's sexist. You're a Chauvanist if you disagree with her:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122031229774188795.html

This coming for a party that said such things about Hilary Clinton as:
– In November 2007, when a questioner asked “How do we beat the bitch [Clinton]?,” McCain replied, “That’s an excellent question.”
– In 1998, McCain made a lesbian joke that referenced Clinton’s daughter: “Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”
– In May 2008, McCain adviser Alex Castellanos said, “Her problem is she’s Hillary Clinton. And some women, by the way, are named bitch, and it’s accurate.”
– In March 2007, CNN host Glenn Beck said that Clinton’s “stereotypical” voice was “nagging,” adding that it “just sticks in your ear like an ice pick.”

But these weren't sexist, okay? What is sexist is questioning Palin about her policies and beliefs.

Again, I'd like - I mean I would really like - to be staggered by their total, blatant hypocrisy, but I'm so numbed by it the best I can do is shake my head sadly.
Heh, they must be reading this thread. Balderdash has been trying to do that all day long. :D

You could also add in the internment of Japanese-born US citizens during WWII - 120,000 of them were taken from their homes and crammed into camps for the best part of the war:
http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW2/japan_internment_camps.htm
You're right. That's Four*.

And Five* is the internment, harrassment and violence against German Americans during WW1 (before the Espionage Act).

EDIT: Actually, I'm going to put asterisks on those ones because, technically, they were espisodes of rampant xenophobia rather than attacks against critics and whistleblowers. But the accusations were just as unfounded and the effects just as bad.

Lots of ppl want to have a word with me too. Well usually two words and one of them is "off".
Me too! It must be some kind of code. ;)

You could also add in the internment of Japanese-born US citizens during WWII - 120,000 of them were taken from their homes and crammed into camps for the best part of the war:
http://www.historyonthenet.com/WW2/japan_internment_camps.htm


And if certain American demographics had their way, those camps would have been refurbished for Muslim inmates today.

You're right. That's four.

And Five is the internment, harrassment and violence against German Americans during WW1 (before the Espionage Act).

Not that it was federal government policy, but from memory was after 1776, the Salem witch trials and other would also count too wouldn't it? I only point this out because I remember having to do a essay that compared McCarthy and his campaign and the witch trials back in high school.

Me too! It must be some kind of code. ;)
code? For years I thought it was a term of endearment or a novel way of greeting someone.

WHo cares about WMDs anyway? That is not the point of why we went to war. That is like bumper sticker liberal garbage. I cannot stand a lot of stuff about Bush but do not go disparaging the war. It is idiotic and disrespectful.

So the primary excuse the Bush administration gave for invading Iraq was NOT the suspicious that Irag possessed WMDs?

And seriously, disparaging the war? Are we going to hurt the war's feelings?

I am not sure where you are going with this but I agree.

That you can't support Palin for saying that government has no place in supporting children, but it does have a place in telling people whether to have them or not.

""Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America; he's worried that someone won't read them their rights." - Palin

Only the Republicans would use the idea of rights as an insult.

That was my favorite line too. I also liked the bit about how being tortured as a P.O.W. gave McCain a special compassion... maybe he approved torture on Guantanamo detainees because he wanted to instill that special compassion in all of them.

So the primary excuse the Bush administration gave for invading Iraq was NOT the suspicious that Irag possessed WMDs?

And seriously, disparaging the war? Are we going to hurt the war's feelings?

Shhhh, the war might hear you.

Not that it was federal government policy, but from memory was after 1776, the Salem witch trials and other would also count too wouldn't it? I only point this out because I remember having to do a essay that compared McCarthy and his campaign and the witch trials back in high school.
Not really. First, the Salem Witch Trials incident was the only one of its kind in the North American colonies (approximately a century after witch crazes stopped happening in Europe). The Salem Witch Trials had four factors that make them different:

1) They were a religion-prompted craze.

2) Beneath the surface they were really driven by a long-term, ongoing feud between two families in Salem and Danvers, warring over land disputes and social status. It should always be remembered that, in that incident, the accused -- whether they were found guilty or not -- would have their property taken and the judge who ordered their arrests and the sheriff who tortured and jailed them would take their cuts, and the rest would go to the people who had accused them in the first place. Among those two warring families, the land of the accused family all went to the family that did the accusing. (I wish I could remember their names.)

3) They were strictly a local event. The craze never spread beyond the side-by-side towns of Salem and Danvers.

4) It was the government that put a stop to them, by responding to complaints from the local people and sending magistrates from Boston who, when they saw what was going on, relieved Judge Hathorn of control of the proceedings and disallowed all of the "spectral evidence" Hathorn had been using to condemn people. That pretty much put paid to the whole thing, but by then 19 people had been killed.

So in that story, the government wasn't the bad guy. Though when people refer to what folks like McCarthy did as "witch hunts," they are referring to Salem.

EDIT: Also, the Salem Trials happened in the 1600's, not the 1700's, long before there was a USA. It was the government of the Massachusetts Bay Colony that stepped in.

Interesting historical footnote: The Judge Hathorn who was the "hanging judge" of the Salem Witch Trials was the ancestor of American novelist Nathaniel Hawthorne, also from Salem, Mass, who so hated his ancestor and what he did, that he changed the spelling of his name to dissaciate himself from him. Nathaniel Hawthorne spent his entire literary career writing tales of righteous hypocrites ruining people's lives. Today, Judge Hathorn's grave in the Old Burying Ground lies not 20 feet from the wall of the memorial to the victims of the Trials. The memorial is visited by thousands every year. Nobody visits the judge's grave.

And seriously, disparaging the war? Are we going to hurt the war's feelings?
.

Quality.

Interesting historical footnote: The Judge Hathorn who was the "hanging judge" of the Salem Witch Trials was the ancestor of American novelist Nathaniel Hawthorne, also from Salem, Mass, who so hated his ancestor and what he did, that he changed the spelling of his name to dissaciate himself from him. Nathaniel Hawthorne spent his entire literary career writing tales of righteous hypocrites ruining people's lives. Today, Judge Hathorn's grave in the Old Burying Ground lies not 20 feet from the wall of the memorial to the victims of the Trials. The memorial is visited by thousands every year.

Nathaniel Hawthorne actually felt some sort of "family debt" to the victims, too. He was a respectable guy.

Nobody visits the judge's grave.

Not even to take a dump or a leak?

And seriously, disparaging the war? Are we going to hurt the war's feelings?


Considering all the bombs and guns; do you want to find out?

True. How often does anyone get a chance to fail so spectacularly and look like such a fool in eyes of the world for days at a stretch? What ambitious person, upon being offered such a chance, would look at their lives -- full of ethics investigations, pregnant, unmarried daughters, brand new special-needs babies, seccessionists, political flip-flops and moose waiting to be skinned -- and say anything other than "I'm on my way to Minneapolis! Yeehah!"
if she does a good job, it doesnt matter that they lose. she is at the top level of the party.

she did a good job with her speech tonight...not that she wrote it but she did a very good job delivering it.

*snip*

Thanks for the heads up, quite interesting to get some proper background to the trails and the reasons behind it, I wasn't aware that it was more of a feud between two families using hysteria and the law defeat the other.
*Thought I had one there, damn*

Nathaniel Hawthorne actually felt some sort of "family debt" to the victims, too. He was a respectable guy.



Not even to take a dump or a leak?
Heh, no. It's in the middle of a public walkway in one of the busiest tourist spots in the town (so not very good for leaking/dumping). Folks just walk right by it. A lot of people don't even know who he is. Nathaniel did his job well.

if she does a good job, it doesnt matter that they lose. she is at the top level of the party.

she did a good job with her speech tonight...not that she wrote it but she did a very good job delivering it.
Sigh. Now I'm getting depressed again.

Sigh. Now I'm getting depressed again.
on the good side her speech was so hard on obama that his team doesnt have to be so careful about being mean to the nice lady. shes not so nice.

Thanks for the heads up, quite interesting to get some proper background to the trails and the reasons behind it, I wasn't aware that it was more of a feud between two families using hysteria and the law defeat the other.
*Thought I had one there, damn*
It's actually a really complicated story. Google some books about it. You'll find a lot about a theory that the "spectral evidence" was really hallucinations caused by ergot poisoning but I don't buy into that because there is so much social context behind the Trials, too, and the specific accusations made were straight out of "witchhunting manuals" of the time.

But of course, the Trials are connected to the McCarthy "Red Scare" because of Arthur Miller's play "The Crucible" in which he used the Witch Trials as a symbol of McCarthy and the HUAC's tactics against those accused of being communists in the 1950s.

if she does a good job, it doesnt matter that they lose. she is at the top level of the party.

she did a good job with her speech tonight...not that she wrote it but she did a very good job delivering it.

Who was the speech aimed at? To me it sounded like preaching to the choir.

on the good side her speech was so hard on obama that his team doesnt have to be so careful about being mean to the nice lady. shes not so nice.
I'm telling you, that <expletive> is going to carry McCain high in the polls straight through November, just because she'll look good while delivering the vicious attacks their base want to hear. :(

Who was the speech aimed at? To me it sounded like preaching to the choir.
I think it was. It was the RNC convention, after all.

I'm telling you, that <expletive> is going to carry McCain high in the polls straight through November, just because she'll look good while delivering the vicious attacks their base want to hear. :(

Calm down. Obama's ahead, Palin herself costs McCain some lines of attack, and the debates will crush both.

I think it was. It was the RNC convention, after all.

Hmm I guess I was waiting for the Maverick tendency to reach out to non party people. ;)

If I was going to remotely consider her, I would like to check into some of her claims such as fighting the oil lobby.

Somebody has already pointed out that she had supported the Bridge to Nowhere at one point.

I also saw a blip about millions in earmarks for her home town....

It doesn't matter to me as her stance on Pro-life well except for convicted criminals and her stance creationism in the science class turns me away....

Who was the speech aimed at? To me it sounded like preaching to the choir.
yeah i suppose it was but at the same time it was her national debut so more than just republicans listened to her.

how it went over, i dont know. id feel so much better if the good things they said about mccain were true--other than his pow experience, of course. and if the complaints they made against the democrats were true.

maybe the dems did the same thing last week, i cant say that im objective enough to say that its not tit for tat but the whole night was attacking strawmen for the most part.

Hmm I guess I was waiting for the Maverick tendency to reach out to non party people. ;)

If I was going to remotely consider her, I would like to check into some of her claims such as fighting the oil lobby.

Somebody has already pointed out that she had supported the Bridge to Nowhere at one point.

I also saw a blip about millions in earmarks for her home town....

It doesn't matter to me as her stance on Pro-life well except for convicted criminals and her stance creationism in the science class turns me away....
Just read all 40+ pages of this thread (and check the other US Veeps thread, too). You'll find lots of links and even more keywords to google about The Adventures of Sarah Palin. The thrills, the chills, the premarital sex, the oil cronyism, even secessionism!! It's a nifty laff riot, from start to finish.

She sounded immature and sarcastic. That wasn't a speech fit for a high school English class.

She reminds me of a character on 'Northern Exposure'.

She sounded immature and sarcastic. That wasn't a speech fit for a high school English class.
its opened my eyes to political speeches in general. how much does ANY politician write of their own speeches. im pretty sure that she wrote almost none of this--it was a speech written by a washington insider dissing washington insiders--but how much did michelle obama write of hers, for example?

it must be so frustrating to be a big time speech writer. if you do your job well no one ever credits those great lines to you. the only ones who know are the insiders who suffer the same fate.

It's actually a really complicated story. Google some books about it. You'll find a lot about a theory that the "spectral evidence" was really hallucinations caused by ergot poisoning but I don't buy into that because there is so much social context behind the Trials, too, and the specific accusations made were straight out of "witchhunting manuals" of the time.

Yes it does seem a bit far fetched, but I will look into a bit further, thanks for the help.

But of course, the Trials are connected to the McCarthy "Red Scare" because of Arthur Miller's play "The Crucible" in which he used the Witch Trials as a symbol of McCarthy and the HUAC's tactics against those accused of being communists in the 1950s.

Which is why I had to do a comparative essay on the two events as we were studying The Crucible at the time for English and the assignment that went along with the text was to write up this essay using The Crucible as a reference.

Hmm I guess I was waiting for the Maverick tendency to reach out to non party people. ;)

It doesn't matter to me as her stance on Pro-life well except for convicted criminals and her stance creationism in the science class turns me away....

I really liked her claim to about how congress already spends too much money. Geez, I wonder where it's all going...

I just don't get how they can call him a Maverick and keep a straight face. I mean, I know it's been said a LOT, but for god's sake, 90% of the time voting with Bush. He must have been REALLY out there that other 10%. "Increase spending for the homeless? Fuck it, let's move them into the white house!"

She reminds me of a character on 'Northern Exposure'.

The moose?

/sniping

I really liked her claim to about how congress already spends too much money. Geez, I wonder where it's all going...

I just don't get how they can call him a Maverick and keep a straight face. I mean, I know it's been said a LOT, but for god's sake, 90% of the time voting with Bush. He must have been REALLY out there that other 10%. "Increase spending for the homeless? Fuck it, let's move them into the white house!"
its going to be a very hard sell to suggest that the republican candidate who has spent the last 6 months endorsing pretty much all bush policies is an agent of change.

"me too, me too" didnt work for hillary clinton, can it possibly work for john mccain?

I really liked her claim to about how congress already spends too much money. Geez, I wonder where it's all going...

I just don't get how they can call him a Maverick and keep a straight face. I mean, I know it's been said a LOT, but for god's sake, 90% of the time voting with Bush. He must have been REALLY out there that other 10%. "Increase spending for the homeless? Fuck it, let's move them into the white house!"

Well, he did select Palin. "Pick someone who actually has a clue? Fuck that, I'm picking Palin."

Is it really that different?

on the good side her speech was so hard on obama that his team doesnt have to be so careful about being mean to the nice lady. shes not so nice.
Not surprising, seeing as it was written for her by one of Bush's old speechwriters, Matthew Scully who had only met her the day before. And if you look at her speech, it's pretty much exactly the same as every other speech given by the republican side over the past 8 years.

She used to be a TV sportscaster so she should be able to deliver a speech one would hope.

Not surprising, seeing as it was written for her by one of Bush's old speechwriters, Matthew Scully who had only met her the day before. And if you look at her speech, it's pretty much exactly the same as every other speech given by the republican side over the past 8 years.

She used to be a TV sportscaster so she should be able to deliver a speech one would hope.
the references to problems in other countries that might impact the US was a bit laughable. she did a good job but wasnt particularly convincing that she understood what she was reading.

Well, he did select Palin. "Pick someone who actually has a clue? Fuck that, I'm picking Palin."

Is it really that different?

Maybe if he just makes one utterly insane knee-jerk decision per week he can sort of throw that blanket over the rest of it.

"Yes, I did vote against disallowing the use of torture on P.O.W.s... but look, I turned the Roosevelt Room into a petting zoo!"

its opened my eyes to political speeches in general. how much does ANY politician write of their own speeches. im pretty sure that she wrote almost none of this--it was a speech written by a washington insider dissing washington insiders--but how much did michelle obama write of hers, for example?

it must be so frustrating to be a big time speech writer. if you do your job well no one ever credits those great lines to you. the only ones who know are the insiders who suffer the same fate.
Sometimes they get to host game shows on a basic cable channel...

Maybe if he just makes one utterly insane knee-jerk decision per week he can sort of throw that blanket over the rest of it.

"Yes, I did vote against disallowing the use of torture on P.O.W.s... but look, I turned the Roosevelt Room into a petting zoo!"

Every 7 days we cloud pretend we elected Jello Biafra (the former member of the Dead Kennedys, not the poster), Clown Suit Fridays!

WHo cares about WMDs anyway? That is not the point of why we went to war. That is like bumper sticker liberal garbage. I cannot stand a lot of stuff about Bush but do not go disparaging the war. It is idiotic and disrespectful.

Who cares? The Administration did, in the 2003 State of the Union Address as a direct reason for going into Iraq, for fuck's sake. I'd say that was a pretty big damned deal, wouldn't you? Even you?

Lots of people want a word with me. McCarthy can take a number and wait his turn.

Yeah, that zombie with the Brylcream 'do is gettin' on my nerves, too.

Maybe if he just makes one utterly insane knee-jerk decision per week he can sort of throw that blanket over the rest of it.

"Yes, I did vote against disallowing the use of torture on P.O.W.s... but look, I turned the Roosevelt Room into a petting zoo!"

Well, as I was driving the U-Haul with only radio though Dakota, Montana and Idaho on the way here with all my stuff, I heard McCain's own voice tell me that he likes to decide quickly, "before anyone else" -- and deal with the consequences later. This seems...rash.

""Al-Qaida terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America; he's worried that someone won't read them their rights." - Palin

Only the Republicans would use the idea of rights as an insult.

Did you see the cheers and applause that line got? It kinda broke my brain. WOOOOO YEAH RIGHTS SUCK! DOWN WITH RIGHTS! YAY!

Did you see the cheers and applause that line got? It kinda broke my brain. WOOOOO YEAH RIGHTS SUCK! DOWN WITH RIGHTS! YAY!

Well ner. Terrorists don't deserve rights. They deserve to be locked in a small hole in the ground and fed rats and raw sewage. Actually, no Muslim deserves constitutional protection, because all Muslims are terrorists and hate America. And all blacks are Muslims, so blacks shouldn't have rights either. And putting them in a hole will cost tax payers money, we should make them pick oranges so we can send the Mexicans home (another threat against our country). Oh, wait...

Did you see the cheers and applause that line got? It kinda broke my brain. WOOOOO YEAH RIGHTS SUCK! DOWN WITH RIGHTS! YAY!

If there was a sense of cosmic irony, those very people would be arrested on trumped up charges one day, and when they scream about their rights, a video of them cheering the destruction of rights will be played right back at them.

Are we sure this whole shotgun wedding thing isn't just an excuse to show how pro gun-lobby she is?

Pro-life people that get abortions??????? What?????? That is like pacifists that fight in wars. It is like steak eating vegetarians. Are you saying that the pro-life aborters remained pro-life after their abortions or became pro-life after their abortions? I must admit you have me really confused.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)

-When the Anti-Choice Choose
By Joyce Arthur

It's relevant that she doesn't actually support the results of her laws.

I know that doesn't bother you, but it should.

I'll make this pledge now. You get every unwanted child a set of parents, I'll personally campaign to make abortion illegal. Until we're done mistreating actual children, I'm afraid I'm not going to worry to much about the treatment of those that don't yet exist.
Please, Joc, please tell me you're kidding.

Because the idea that you don't give two shits about the human rights of 51% of the population makes me puke in my mouth a bit.

Since we have talked about speeches at the RNC I liked Giuliani's speech just before Palins. He was entertaining.

*snip*

For those interested in further reading, source article: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html

It is like steak eating vegetarians

Now that would be something to see, it would certainly give wait to the statement "if they had the chance they would eat us too"

Now that would be something to see, it would certainly give wait to the statement "if they had the chance they would eat us too"

I keep saying, it's not food unless something suffers...





I'm kidding, I'm kidding, don't kill me...

-When the Anti-Choice Choose
By Joyce Arthur

A pity these practicioners lacked a video camera at the time and an appropriate display screen to put on the clinic every time the protesters showed up, even if it would have violated patient confidentiality. Shredding the credibility of hypocrites and grinding their faces in what they're doing is, I think, a worthwhile endeavor. Not that it's likely to achieve results, given the amazing propensity for double think people display however.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)

-When the Anti-Choice Choose
By Joyce Arthur


I keep telling myself that I can no longer be shocked by the stupidity or evil or whatever that people are capable of. But then I read something like this and I am shocked anew. The hypocrisy and self-lying is just amazing.

You were trying to get a reaction from me. You got one. I reported you.

Report as much as you want you freak. Are you like a ten year old tattle tale or something. If you are in fact a child please let me know because I will not speak to you in the language that I want to use. In fact, maybe it is best that I assume that this is in fact what you are.

Ok, little squirt, there are really evil people out there like Saddam Hussein and John Gacy. When the good guys find out about these sort of people, the correct way of dealing with it is for the good guys to grab their guns and go out and bring the bad guys in for justice. The bad guys get a trial and then justice is done.

Now let us say that we have a world where bad guys are not forced to face justice. In this world the bad guys would stay around as long as people let them do their thing.

If you are in fact an adult, I would tell you this using different language but I do not want to talk that way to a kiddie.

You were trying to get a reaction from me. You got one. I reported you.

I cannot believe it but a moderator actually listened to your whining and out of respect for the moderator, I will not respond to your bizzare conclusions that not finding WMDs in Iraq matters in any way. You have won in your effort to chill any discussions tha tdo not conform to your warped view of reality. Congratulations as I am sure that this is what you are after.

Report as much as you want you freak. Are you like a ten year old tattle tale or something. If you are in fact a child please let me know because I will not speak to you in the language that I want to use. In fact, maybe it is best that I assume that this is in fact what you are.

Ok, little squirt, there are really evil people out there like Saddam Hussein and John Gacy. When the good guys find out about these sort of people, the correct way of dealing with it is for the good guys to grab their guns and go out and bring the bad guys in for justice. The bad guys get a trial and then justice is done.

Now let us say that we have a world where bad guys are not forced to face justice. In this world the bad guys would stay around as long as people let them do their thing.

If you are in fact an adult, I would tell you this using different language but I do not want to talk that way to a kiddie.

1- I was alays right about Iraq, and always will have been. End of story. I do not have to argue that, or "evil", with you. You support the most useless, stupid and bloody act of genocide in the last 20 years.

2- Reported again.

3- I'm 27, and I was right about Iraq. You were and are wrong. That's all there is to it.

1- I was alays right about Iraq, and always will have been. End of story. I do not have to argue that with you.

2- Reported again.

3- I'm 27, and I was right about Iraq. You were and are wrong. That's all there is to it.

Darn you and your sneaky little moves, I was in the process of deleting and editing posts after I discovered that a moderator fell for your lille ruse.

I am sure you realize that Saddam Hussein was a vile dictator. This in and of itself justifies bringing him to justice. However, the point was not whether he had WMDs but that he was not cooperatiing with UNSCOM's WMD inspectors as he was required to do under the UN Peace Treaty.

Although those were not the only reasons why Congress authorized military force. I believe that there were 16 or so of them in all.

1- I was alays right about Iraq, and always will have been. End of story. I do not have to argue that, or "evil", with you. You support the most useless, stupid and bloody act of genocide in the last 20 years.

2- Reported again.

3- I'm 27, and I was right about Iraq. You were and are wrong. That's all there is to it.

OK now I am finished writing to you. Why don't you report this while you are at it?

Darn you and your sneaky little moves, I was in the process of deleting and editing posts after Idiscovered tha ta moderator fell for your lille ruse.

I am sure you realize that Saddam Hussein was a vile dictator. This in and of itself justifies bringing him to justice. However, the point was not whetehr he had WMDs but that he was not cooperatiing with UNSCOM's WMD inspectors as he was required to do under the UN Peace Treaty.

Although those were not the only reasons why Congress authorized military force. I believe that there were 16 or so of them in all.

1- The moderators know when you edit posts.

2- By your logic, Bush should be taken to the gallows.

3- The only one with a "ruse" here is you.

4- Saddam WAS cooperating. Bush just wanted to kill nearly a million people.

OK now I am finished writing to you. Why don't you report this while you are at it?

Because in THIS post you're not flamebaiting me, as you're doing in many of the others.

I was right about Iraq.

Darn you and your sneaky little moves, I was in the process of deleting and editing posts after I discovered that a moderator fell for your lille ruse.

I'm not "falling for a little ruse". I'm reading the thread because I'm interested in the subject. I'm not having any difficulty in deciphering your belittling insults against a poster, not against the argument. If you don't get your act in order REAL SOON, you will be looking at a blank ban screen.

Knock off the personal attacks. NOW.

Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Mod.

I'm not "falling for a little ruse". I'm reading the thread because I'm interested in the subject. I'm not having any difficulty in deciphering your belittling insults against a poster, not against the argument. If you don't get your act in order REAL SOON, you will be looking at a blank ban screen.

Knock off the personal attacks. NOW.

Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Mod.

Frisbeeteria, I will not respond to H2 anymore. I will keep my mouth shut about H2. You have a job to do here and I respect that.

Yeah, right, who cares if you criticize the government or blow the whistle on governmental wrongdoing and get called "Anti-American" or even "traitor" and get accused of "aiding and abetting the enemy" for it? Who gives a flip if even members of Congress or the president's staff did that to the critics?


Quite right, you shouldn't let that stop you!


Why would anyone take the exact same kind of accusatory rhetoric seriously now?

Indeed, the term "anti American" is used so much that its lost all meaning, if it even had any in the first place. In fact, if some neocon was to call me anti-American, I would take it as a compliment, I wouldn't let it get to me.

I'm not "falling for a little ruse". I'm reading the thread because I'm interested in the subject. I'm not having any difficulty in deciphering your belittling insults against a poster, not against the argument. If you don't get your act in order REAL SOON, you will be looking at a blank ban screen.

Knock off the personal attacks. NOW.

Frisbeeteria
Senior Game Mod.

Fris, not that I want to add gasoline to the fire or anything, but could you take a look at Moderation?

Well, as I was driving the U-Haul with only radio though Dakota, Montana and Idaho on the way here with all my stuff, I heard McCain's own voice tell me that he likes to decide quickly, "before anyone else" -- and deal with the consequences later. This seems...rash.
It does, doesn't it? McCain seems to be confusing the business of the nation with a race to the bathroom.

Quite right, you shouldn't let that stop you!



Indeed, the term "anti American" is used so much that its lost all meaning, if it even had any in the first place. In fact, if some neocon was to call me anti-American, I would take it as a compliment, I wouldn't let it get to me.

I'm not as big a man as you are. I want to rub the mistake of calling me anti-American in their faces...

It does, doesn't it? McCain seems to be confusing the business of the nation with a race to the bathroom.

Well, McCain WOULD...

I'm not as big a man as you are. I want to rub the mistake of calling me anti-American in their faces...

Haha, don't worry I'm not expecting anyone to not get pissed off at being called anti-American and I don't care if you rub it in their faces. My main problem really was just how you equated being called anti-American (and I'm not saying you intentionally did this) with other things like the Iraq war and the fact that there were no WMD's, I'm not saying being called anti-American isn't a problem, but it's nothing compared to those other problems.

I'm not as big a man as you are. I want to rub the mistake of calling me anti-American in their faces...

Sorry, what mistake? Or is it the mistake of crossing you?

Sorry, what mistake? Or is it the mistake of crossing you?

Oh, I don't hold it against the people that ACTUALLY debated me on the war.

Haha, don't worry I'm not expecting anyone to not get pissed off at being called anti-American and I don't care if you rub it in their faces. My main problem really was just how you equated being called anti-American (and I'm not saying you intentionally did this) with other things like the Iraq war and the fact that there were no WMD's, I'm not saying being called anti-American isn't a problem, but it's nothing compared to those other problems.

Oh, to be sure, I'm aware of that. But in my personal realm, I want to pay them back this debt. If anyone has MIRC and is willing to print-screen a message and the response (I'd tell you the targets), TG me. :p

Quite right, you shouldn't let that stop you!



Indeed, the term "anti American" is used so much that its lost all meaning, if it even had any in the first place. In fact, if some neocon was to call me anti-American, I would take it as a compliment, I wouldn't let it get to me.
I took and still take exception to your "meh, shrug it off" attitude. Some random forum poster who throws accusations of "treason", "anti-American", etc., around can be laughed at as an individual, sure. But when people in positions of power in the real world are doing it, when parts of the media are doing it, when that random forum poster is just following the example of national leaders, then, while the person who did the act may be laughable, the action itself is not.

Anyone -- ANYONE -- who has had that done to them by ANYONE anywhere has a right and IS right to respond with anger and an assertive counter-attack. That kind of poison needs to get nipped in the bud, every single time. No exceptions.

"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)

-When the Anti-Choice Choose
By Joyce Arthur
:hail:

You are so cool.

Anyone -- ANYONE -- who has had that done to them by ANYONE anywhere has a right and IS right to respond with anger and an assertive counter-attack. That kind of poison needs to get nipped in the bud, every single time. No exceptions.

You've made me like Asuka Langley Sohryu. :D

(A fiery girl from an anime) :p

You've made me like Asuka Langley Sohryu. :D
I had to google that character. I'm not certain I shouldn't feel a bit un-complimented. :tongue: 14 years old? Just got her boobs? Is really terribly insecure. Hmph. My boobs have been high and bouncing for over 25 years, I'll have you know, and I have no inner insecurities under my aggressiveness. I'm aggressive right down to the bone -- EDIT: and always have been. Just ask my mom. (Poor woman.) (Actually, the hell with her; she can dish the shit just as well as I.)

I had to google that character. I'm not certain I shouldn't feel a bit un-complimented. :tongue: 14 years old? Just got her boobs? Hmph.

Her temper, I mean. She was a tad too hot for my tastebuds, but your OTHER reactions sorta made me see a new side of her. :p

:hail:

You are so cool.

The article referred has been posted on NSG practically every time an abortion thread has come up...

Still, I'm pretty sure Bottle was the person who first posted it, so yeah, she is.

The article referred has been posted on NSG practically every time an abortion thread has come up...

Still, I'm pretty sure Bottle was the person who first posted it, so yeah, she is.
I've been in half or more of all abortion threads posted since 2005, and this is the first time I've seen it. Oh, well.

Hmph. My boobs have been high and bouncing for over 25 years
And believe me, they are fabulous

I've been in half or more of all abortion threads posted since 2005, and this is the first time I've seen it. Oh, well.

I can vouch that she has been in all threads since late 2007, and I have never seen it either.

I've been in half or more of all abortion threads posted since 2005, and this is the first time I've seen it. Oh, well.

It gets linked frequently, along with Neo Art's write-up of the burning fertility clinic thought experiment.

Though maybe saying most is a gross exaggeration, I've definitely seen it a few times.

And believe me, they are fabulous

So, you're a gay man that has looked at her boobs? o_O

It gets linked frequently, along with Neo Art's write-up of the burning fertility clinic thought experiment.

Well, since it got mentioned, I present once again, Bob, the Janitor:

no, not even the "no abortions, no in vetro firtilization, no planned killing of an embryo EVER" people do not really, TRULY believe that an embryo is a human being. The results, as I said, would make you a monster.

Imagine, you are walking late and night and you come across a fertility clinic ablaze. You being the brave soul you are, rush in. FOrtunatly it is night time and the clinic is entirely empty, save for Bob, the Janitor. Bob is currently passed out near the door, and will likely die soon to the fire and smoke.

You think you can reach Bob, grab him, and make it to the front door, both alive. You are actually virtually positive, and believe that you would have a 80% chance of success at getting out alive the two of you. Unfortunatly that means you also have a 20% chance of dying.

You can also simply turn around and walk out, an activity that will with 100% certainty, spare your life. It will, unfortunatly, with equal 100% certainty, kill Bob the Janitor.

So you can run, and assure your survival, and bob will Perish. Or you can attempt a rescue, and risk the 20% chance that both of you will die.

But lo, what is this? You notice a cooler next to bob, with a sign that reads "one fertilized human embryo inside". Let's say, if you decided, you could grab the cooler and run. You'd make it out with 90% certainty. But if you attempt to rescue the cooler, and bob, all 3 of you will perish.

Now you have a third choice, save yourself with 100% certainty, save bob with 80% certainty, or save the cooler with 90% certainty.

Anyone on this board will give one of two answers, some will opt to attempt to save bob, and the more risk averse will chose their own life.

Nobody, ABSOLUTLY NOBODY will say "I will attempt to save the cooler". Nobody would. Either they'd risk their lives to save another living, breathing human being in Bob the janitor, or they would run, and assure their own life.

However, if you believed, if you TRULY BELIEVED that the fertilized egg sitting in that cooler was a human life, the same as you, and me, and bob, then you would be morally bound to rescue the cooler, and not bob. Anyone who actually, TRULY believed that this embryo was a life, would eitehr save themselves, or, given better odds, would save the cooler over bob. If you actually believed that the cooler contained human life you would chose to save the cooler and not bob, based purely on the odds.

Which is where the flaw comes, nobody would do it. They'd either save themselves, OR attempt a rescue of bob. Some would risk death to save another human being. Nobody, NOBODY would risk death to save a cooler. But for those who believe an embryo is human life, saving Bob and saving the embryo are one and the same, and one should save the cooler, not Bob, because the egg in the cooler is more likely to survive.

Now some would admit "ok, so maybe the embryo isn't FULLY human, but it's 'human like', somewhat 'fractional' human." So fine, let's change the hypothetical a bit. Let's So instead of one embryo in that cooler, instead the sticker read 2. Or 10. Or 10,000. Or a million. Or 10 million (embryo's are small, after all). But now it holds 10 million, so it has to be rather bigger. Now the odds of you getting out alive with that cooler are 80/20. Exactly the same odds as trying to rescue Bob the Janitor.

If that cooler contained 10 million tiny frozen embryos, then, according to the belief, that cooler contains TEN MILLION HUMAN LIVES. How many people here if given the answer would risk a 80/20 split on their own life if it meant saving TEN MILLION PEOPLE. How many people would take the bet on their life if success meant saving as many people as the holocaust killed?

Would anyone refuse, really? Would anyone here not be willing to take a 1 in 5 chance of death if success meant saving 10 MILLION lives? I'd take that bet, and I suspect most would too.

Would anyone risk their lives for that cooler? Would anyone forsake the unconcious bob for that cooler? According to the belief that cooler contains 10 MILLION human lives, ten million. To chose one, or two lives, over 10 million is barbaric, so the implication of that belief is that you MUST save the cooler.

Would anyone do it? Anyone? Would anyone risk the 20% chance of excuciating death and leave a helpless man to die for a cooler of frozen embryos? If you TRULY believed that an embryo is a human life, then that cooler contains TEN MILLION human lives. The result of that belief is that Bob the Janitor dies in that fire, because who among us would chose the life of one stranger, over the life of 10 million strangers? The belief that those embryos constitute 10 million human lives would compell you to leave Bob for death and save the cooler. And nobody, NOBODY would do it. As I said, the moral implications of such a stance would make you a monster.

And since not even the most die hard anti abortion fanatics would sacrifice bob to save one, or 10, or 10,000 or 10 million little tiny frozen embryos, the implication is they are not willing to lose one person to save 10 million. So either your belief turns you into a monster, or you don't REALLY believe it.

Well, since it got mentioned, I present once again, Bob, the Janitor:

You should save this and put it in your signature. It'd be your Ace of Hearts. ;)

You should save this and put it in your signature. It'd be your Ace of Hearts. ;)

I had to give him the link from my bookmarks. I don't think he's overly interested in naming his past posts.

That poor cooler.

It does, doesn't it? McCain seems to be confusing the business of the nation with a race to the bathroom.

No coincidence there, I'd wager.

Meanwhile, in the continuing saga of Democrats giving away the advantage in favor of taking the high road (despite the evidence of 2000/2004 showing that the electorate doesn't seem to care about that)...

From a Yahoo News story, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

"Palin has opposed funding sex-education programs in Alaska. However, Cindy McCain told ABC that she advocated abstinence as a part of sex education at her children's school. "I believe that it's twofold and I think all of it should be taught," she said."

Finally, someone brings up the folly of abstinence-only sex-ed and its role in the Palin pregnancy, and who does it? Cindy McCain. Joe Biden is calling off any mention of Palin's family.

I had to give him the link from my bookmarks. I don't think he's overly interested in naming his past posts.

That's a dysfunction in him that comes from watching too little anime. :D

That's a dysfunction in him that comes from watching too little anime. :D

Dysfunction isn't quite the word I'd use.

Mostly I think I'm one of the few people who ever archives memorable posts for use in debates on other sites.

Dysfunction isn't quite the word I'd use.

Yeah, well, I'm PC like that. :D

Mostly I think I'm one of the few people who ever archives memorable posts for use in debates on other sites.

I'm another. :p

That poor cooler.

Not to mention the beer they were keeping in it.

No coincidence there, I'd wager.

Meanwhile, in the continuing saga of Democrats giving away the advantage in favor of taking the high road (despite the evidence of 2000/2004 showing that the electorate doesn't seem to care about that)...

From a Yahoo News story, http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp

"Palin has opposed funding sex-education programs in Alaska. However, Cindy McCain told ABC that she advocated abstinence as a part of sex education at her children's school. "I believe that it's twofold and I think all of it should be taught," she said."

Finally, someone brings up the folly of abstinence-only sex-ed and its role in the Palin pregnancy, and who does it? Cindy McCain. Joe Biden is calling off any mention of Palin's family.

Whether the electorate cares or not Biden and Obama are doing the right thing.

Then there's this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

Ah, the facts. Is it any wonder only half the electorate actually votes?

Then there's this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

Ah, the facts. Is it any wonder only half the electorate actually votes?
I rather liked the last one. It reminded me of seeing McCain on the telly last night saying how Palin is going to, and I quote, shake up the Washington old boy's network.

Whether the electorate cares or not Biden and Obama are doing the right thing.

I completely agree, but does doing the right thing salve the pain of knowing that doing it cost the election? Again, I agree with Biden's stance...I'm just sick of being on the "right" side of an ethical debate and discovering that the electorate doesn't care.

I rather liked the last one. It reminded me of seeing McCain on the telly last night saying how Palin is going to, and I quote, shake up the Washington old boy's network.

Yeah, by introducing breasts to it...breasts that will, with their owner, pull up a seat at that network's trough and have at it.

Then there's this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

Ah, the facts. Is it any wonder only half the electorate actually votes?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/maverick_misleads.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_new_stitch_in_a_bad_pattern.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/context_included_obama_on_iran.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html


Most Americans don't care enough to be mad when they're lied to.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/maverick_misleads.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_new_stitch_in_a_bad_pattern.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/context_included_obama_on_iran.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html


Most Americans don't care enough to be mad when they're lied to.

Yeah. I know. It's depressing.

I completely agree, but does doing the right thing salve the pain of knowing that doing it cost the election? Again, I agree with Biden's stance...I'm just sick of being on the "right" side of an ethical debate and discovering that the electorate doesn't care.

People get the leadership they deserve. If they want liars and slime representing them they get it. Look at Dubya's terms. Sure Kerry wasn't exactly a great candidate, but god dammit he was better than Bush.



"If the Democrats are serious about governing, they should remember the words of one of their nominees, Adlai Stevenson. After one of his typically brilliant campaign speeches, someone shouted out to Stevenson from the crowd that he had the votes of all thinking Americans.

Stevenson shouted back, saying that wasn't enough: 'I need a majority!' "

People get the leadership they deserve. If they want liars and slime representing them they get it. Look at Dubya's terms. Sure Kerry wasn't exactly a great candidate, but god dammit he was better than Bush.

"If the Democrats are serious about governing, they should remember the words of one of their nominees, Adlai Stevenson. After one of his typically brilliant campaign speeches, someone shouted out to Stevenson from the crowd that he had the votes of all thinking Americans.

Stevenson shouted back, saying that wasn't enough: 'I need a majority!' "

That reminds me of the Bill Bradley campaign in 2000. I respect that kind of wit, and even agree with it, but like the man said, he needs a majority, and open contempt for the electorate, no matter how deserved, won't get you one. MAN that's a lot of commas.

People get the leadership they deserve. If they want liars and slime representing them they get it. Look at Dubya's terms. Sure Kerry wasn't exactly a great candidate, but god dammit he was better than Bush.



"If the Democrats are serious about governing, they should remember the words of one of their nominees, Adlai Stevenson. After one of his typically brilliant campaign speeches, someone shouted out to Stevenson from the crowd that he had the votes of all thinking Americans.

Stevenson shouted back, saying that wasn't enough: 'I need a majority!' "

More support for some sort of knowledge test before allowing anyone to vote. Seriously though, I know how voting is supposed to be a right and everything, but it seems to me that Americans are too much in love with anything that can be labeled a right and not even spare a thought as to what that right means.

Maybe if they became privileges instead, people would think more about what the rights really mean to them.

More support for some sort of knowledge test before allowing anyone to vote. Seriously though, I know how voting is supposed to be a right and everything, but it seems to me that Americans are too much in love with anything that can be labeled a right and not even spare a thought as to what that right means.

Maybe if they became privileges instead, people would think more about what the rights really mean to them.
Speaking as a member of a demographic that has only been permitted to exercise the basic right to bodily autonomy for a single generation, may I suggest that "Americans" aren't quite so uniform a population on this subject?

Some of us are quite fucking well acquainted with what it's like to have our basic rights treated as if they were special privileges for which we should be duly thankful. The Democratic Party loves to shut women up by saying, "The OTHER guys will overturn Roe, so who else can you vote for?" In the last three elections I've heard BOTH sides of the aisle tossing my human rights around to score points, and acting as if it's some kind of tremendous sacrifice for any party to entertain the wacky notion that female citizens should be entitled to the same civil rights as male citizens.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/maverick_misleads.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_new_stitch_in_a_bad_pattern.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/context_included_obama_on_iran.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html


Most Americans don't care enough to be mad when they're lied to.

You mean Republicans are dirty liars?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/gop_convention_spin.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/maverick_misleads.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/a_new_stitch_in_a_bad_pattern.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/context_included_obama_on_iran.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html


Most Americans don't care enough to be mad when they're lied to.

Silly Khadgar, we're not supposed to think for ourselves! We're just supposed to take the party leaders' word for everything!

You mean Republicans are dirty liars?

You didn't actually read the links did you? Khadgar was coonsiderate enough to include links to BOTH parties stretching the truth to try and win over voters.

The ad showing on this thread as I open it is "tina fey, amy poehler BABY MAMA" with the picture of Tina Fey looking very much like Palin!

I am sure you realize that Saddam Hussein was a vile dictator. This in and of itself justifies bringing him to justice. However, the point was not whether he had WMDs but that he was not cooperatiing with UNSCOM's WMD inspectors as he was required to do under the UN Peace Treaty.

The U.S. often refuses to comply with the UN's resolutions and regulations. Surely that justifies our President being brought to justice as well.

Anyone -- ANYONE -- who has had that done to them by ANYONE anywhere has a right and IS right to respond with anger and an assertive counter-attack. That kind of poison needs to get nipped in the bud, every single time. No exceptions.

Agreed. We've become so accustomed to this kind of bullshit that we laugh it off too easily. I usually do, too. And yet, to be come a teacher in my school district I still had to sign a piece of paper promising that I was not a communist and I would do nothing that undermined the belief that the U.S. is the bestest most wonderful country in the whole world.

The U.S. often refuses to comply with the UN's resolutions and regulations. Surely that justifies our President being brought to justice as well.



Agreed. We've become so accustomed to this kind of bullshit that we laugh it off too easily. I usually do, too. And yet, to be come a teacher in my school district I still had to sign a piece of paper promising that I was not a communist and I would do nothing that undermined the belief that the U.S. is the bestest most wonderful country in the whole world.
Wow. I thought loyalty oaths were made illegal after the 1950s. That's not good.

You mean Republicans are dirty liars?

Now now, let's not limit it to the Republicans.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/hit_the_brakes.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/reed_reality.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/saddleback_bloopers.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/distorting_the_dhl_deal.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/not_pictured_here.html

The fact is, both sides are engaged in mud-slinging. Standing on a pillar announcing Obama is innocent and wonderful and would never do that isn't looking at the affair honestly. Both McCain and Obama's camps are happily engaged in the worst kind of partisan mud-slinging found in every election, despite the grand cries of "change" from each side.

Since we have talked about speeches at the RNC I liked Giuliani's speech just before Palins. He was entertaining.

I was particularly entertained that Thylvethter kept thaying all thothe thententheth all thtuffed with thtringth of eththeth.

This resumes my opinion

http://punditkitchen.com/2008/09/04/political-pictures-sarah-palin-abstinence-education/

plus LOLWIN!

[/thread]

Agreed. We've become so accustomed to this kind of bullshit that we laugh it off too easily.

Heck, in this very thread and in moderation, there was a guy claiming, after ALL that happened, and after 70% of the American people came to their senses and became against the war, that I "hate the US" and other tripe! And that after the undeniable fact that such an accusation is a moron's move to try and win/shift an argument was discussed at length!

At least Biden's calling for a cease-fire. Showing a modicum of class there.

Not to mention the beer they were keeping in it.

It was probably just American beer, and thus, not really beer at all. Nothing to see here.

Wow. I thought loyalty oaths were made illegal after the 1950s. That's not good.

I had to sign a piece of paper stating that I wasn't a communist, and wasn't coming here to overthrow the government, incite riots or civil disobedience or... for some reason, of equal apparent degree of importance - kidnap a child.

And that was just to get into the country.

Then there's this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080904/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_fact_check

Ah, the facts. Is it any wonder only half the electorate actually votes?
facts are SEXIST!!

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."
wtf?!
Are all republicans goldfish? Change from a liberal Washington? Has no-one told Romney that Bush is a republican? Or are they so deep into cog diss that they're now thinking of him as a liberal so they then don't need to feel responisble for him?
Appalling thing is, is that this sort of Orwellian soundbite is so ludicrous it will be picked up and accepted by a frighteningly large sector of American society.

Heck, in this very thread and in moderation, there was a guy claiming, after ALL that happened, and after 70% of the American people came to their senses and became against the war, that I "hate the US" and other tripe! And that after the undeniable fact that such an accusation is a moron's move to try and win/shift an argument was discussed at length!
let it go Hei, just let it go.
Refraining from posting is a sign of maturity. Feeling the need to always have the last say just belittles what it is you're wanting to say.
Any reasonable person out there can see who is a douche and who isn't. Unless of course both decide to continue for pages upon pages of petty sniping and bickering. Then both become unto the douche.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4622/ia3yp.jpg

facts are SEXIST!!

FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOV. MITT ROMNEY: "We need change, all right — change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington — throw out the big-government liberals, and elect John McCain and Sarah Palin."
wtf?!
Are all republicans goldfish? Change from a liberal Washington? Has no-one told Romney that Bush is a republican? Or are they so deep into cog diss that they're now thinking of him as a liberal so they then don't need to feel responisble for him?
Appalling thing is, is that this sort of Orwellian soundbite is so ludicrous it will be picked up and accepted by a frighteningly large sector of American society.

Currently, a major voting population are all short-attention span self-absorbed dumbfucks who would keep just about any "Reality Television" show a seasonal ratings grabber. Of course the Orwellian soundbite'll be picked up and accepted by them.

Speaking as a member of a demographic that has only been permitted to exercise the basic right to bodily autonomy for a single generation, may I suggest that "Americans" aren't quite so uniform a population on this subject?

I know that. But the lackwits, the hypocrites, the selfish and the fundamentalists seem to make up a depressingly large proportion of the population.

let it go Hei, just let it go.
Refraining from posting is a sign of maturity. Feeling the need to always have the last say just belittles what it is you're wanting to say.
Any reasonable person out there can see who is a douche and who isn't. Unless of course both decide to continue for pages upon pages of petty sniping and bickering. Then both become unto the douche.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4622/ia3yp.jpg

Oh my god that kid is cute. *steals*

I had to sign a piece of paper stating that I wasn't a communist, and wasn't coming here to overthrow the government, incite riots or civil disobedience or... for some reason, of equal apparent degree of importance - kidnap a child.

And that was just to get into the country.
Yeah, but that was YOU. They'd probably heard about you from Interpol. I'm talking about Americans having to sign loyalty oaths to get work in their own country. I'd thought that was outlawed after McCarthy. Now I'm all a-scared again.

Yeah, but that was YOU. They'd probably heard about you from Interpol. I'm talking about Americans having to sign loyalty oaths to get work in their own country. I'd thought that was outlawed after McCarthy. Now I'm all a-scared again.

Heh. Well, it is possible I have my own FBI file just because I went to Santa Cruz. Although usually I was the one shouting at the parading hippies to shut the hell up and let me sleep already.

AFAIK this is standard practice at public schools. My mom worked in various parts of a nearby State University in the 70's and also had to sign something saying she wasn't a communist, which as a poli sci major really pissed her off.

I was particularly entertained that Thylvethter kept thaying all thothe thententheth all thtuffed with thtringth of eththeth.

What?

The message you have entered is to short, please lengthen your message to at least 6 characters.

It was probably just American beer, and thus, not really beer at all. Nothing to see here.

Well in that case of course you would save Bob and tell the people off for buying that crappy beer.

What?
You didn't notithe that Rudi thpitth every time he hath to thay the letter eth?

let it go Hei, just let it go.
Refraining from posting is a sign of maturity. Feeling the need to always have the last say just belittles what it is you're wanting to say.

I graduated in Language. I ALWAYS have the last say. >.>

You didn't notithe that Rudi thpitth every time he hath to thay the letter eth?

No I didn't, I understood what he was saying.
Of course noe that you have pointed it out I am going to notice it everytime. Thanks a lot Tmutarakhan!