NationStates Jolt Archive

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term used to describe language, ideas, policies, or behavior seen as seeking to minimize offense to gender, racial, cultural, disabled, aged or other identity groups. Conversely, the term "politically incorrect" is used to refer to language or ideas that may cause offense or that are unconstrained by orthodoxy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

We're all familiar with it. We're also familiar with the old bone of ultra-conservatives and/or bigots who claim that it goes too far, that it's either not useful or possibly censors free speech.

There are times where I wonder if that truly is the case. By all means people should be polite; there's no reason to go around a black neighborhood calling everyone ******s (unless you want to get beaten up or possibly shot.) But on that same token I do think there are times where we use political correctness to silence an otherwise useful argument, where we have to be as kind as possible and as such we have our arguments completely overlooked.

What does NSG think?

EDIT:

Ah ha, so Jolt censors the word ****** now? I see. This is a perfect example of what I mean.

Okay, I live in the USA, which means it's politically correct to call "black" people "African-Americans" which I think is politically incorrect in itself, not all dark-skinned people (because technically they're [I just know I'm gonna get flamed for saying "they're" by someone who's skin is darker than mine, but I have to because I don't have a better term for it, because black isn't apropriate, African-American isn't apropriate, and the starred word used by Kyronea in his(correct me please if you're female) post certainly isn't. And I'm Irish, so I can't say "we're"] not black color-wise for the most part) are from Africa. I have a Cambodian friend with dark skin, and Haiti isn't in Africa. Really, there seems to be a taboo on the word "black" lately. I suggest that we use black or think of a new word, because as stated above, African-American is kind of stripping some people on any national pride (which they probably don't have otherwise they wouldn't have come here) that they may have by saying, "They have dark skin! They must be from Africa and certainly not any Carribian islands or any other place (that I don't know about) where people have that shade of skin!"

I hope that made some sense. Basically I was trying to point out how much better (not very) African-American is than black.

The whole 'hyphenation' thing doesn't really seem to be popular in Canada. People are fine with listing their ethnicity without having to attach 'Canadian' to it. People don't run around accusing said others of not actually being Canadian simply because they say "yeah I'm Korean".

I can't abide the term 'Native American'...that's a USian thing. The whole 'African American' thing y'all got going over there really wouldn't work here. Most of OUR blacks (yes, we own them, that's right, I went there) are from the Caribbean anyway. Though we have a lot of African immigrants as well...but 'African American' seems to refer to USian blacks who've lived there forever anyway. A whole different group.

Does any of this cause me any difficulty in my day to day life? Not in the slightest. It's really a blip on the 'what should I give a shit about' radar.

Oh yeah, you know what really grinds my gears? The "azn"s

1. Pardon my language, but WHO GIVES A SHIT if you're Asian, does that give you some kind of superpowers? I don't think so! (Although my 8th grade History teacher thinks Asians can fly. He's pro-Bush 'nuff said.)

2. I am willing to bet $1 that 1/2 of the "azn"s aren't even Asian.

3. If they're using the "azn" tag to abuse the "Asians are smart" stereotype, they're obviously not because they can't type "Asian"

4. Middle-eastern people are Asian, and since they're from the Middle-east, they're potential terrorists -.-

Okay, done flaming the "azn" people

looking at the niggardly incident a few years back yeah i can see PC as going a little farther over board.

I loathe the term "African-American" as used as a synonym for "dark-skinned American," both because a great many dark-skinned Americans may very well have no African heritage whatsoever, and because it necessarily implies that dark skin somehow makes one less than fully American.

Luckily, I have never heard of a single black person objecting to being called black when it is for some reason necessary to mention their skin tone.

I loathe the term "African-American" -snip- because it necessarily implies that dark skin somehow makes one less than fully American.

Luckily, I have never heard of a single black person objecting to being called black when it is for some reason necessary to mention their skin tone.

Yay, I've got another one! and that's a good one, *writes that down for later use in arguement*

Okay, I live in the USA, which means it's politically correct to call "black" people "African-Americans" which I think is politically incorrect in itself, not all dark-skinned people (because technically they're [I just know I'm gonna get flamed for saying "they're" by someone who's skin is darker than mine, but I have to because I don't have a better term for it, because black isn't apropriate, African-American isn't apropriate, and the starred word used by Kyronea in his(correct me please if you're female) post certainly isn't. And I'm Irish, so I can't say "we're"] not black color-wise for the most part) are from Africa. I have a Cambodian friend with dark skin, and Haiti isn't in Africa. Really, there seems to be a taboo on the word "black" lately. I suggest that we use black or think of a new word, because as stated above, African-American is kind of stripping some people on any national pride (which they probably don't have otherwise they wouldn't have come here) that they may have by saying, "They have dark skin! They must be from Africa and certainly not any Carribian islands or any other place (that I don't know about) where people have that shade of skin!"

I hope that made some sense. Basically I was trying to point out how much better (not very) African-American is than black.

Where are you from in the US? In Chicago its ok to call people black.

I think skin tone is something that should be brought up in pretty much every situation. After all, how are your friends going to know what to wear if you don't let them know that your other friends have dark brown skin, or some tone other than white? Do you have ANY idea how embarrasing it is to stand next to someone with 'summer' skin tones, wearing a 'fall' ensemble? I like to slip it in casually, so no one is caught unaware. Like, 'so, we're going to be meeting up with Amy later, by the way she's from Sri Lanka and sort of cafe con leche looking, so don't wear brown unless you want to blend in with her.'

I loathe the term "African-American" as used as a synonym for "dark-skinned American," both because a great many dark-skinned Americans may very well have no African heritage whatsoever, and because it necessarily implies that dark skin somehow makes one less than fully American.

Luckily, I have never heard of a single black person objecting to being called black when it is for some reason necessary to mention their skin tone.

I've never really bothered with using the term "African-American" pretty much for the same reasons. It's a rather ridiculous term, really.

Where are you from in the US? In Chicago its ok to call people black.
Well I'm from MA, "The Gay State" where we are extrememly (in my opinion, at least the people around me are) left-winged, well besides my neighbor/best friend, who thinks video game mass-murders are "cool" (which, admittedly are sometimes) and strongly supports everything the confederates fought for (besides slavery)

Oddly enough, I have never heard a black person object to being called black. A lot of them seem to get annoyed by 'African American', though.
Numerous Mexicans I know are downright offended by the 'Hispanic' tag. Apparently its 'Latino' 'round these parts, unless they actually ARE from Spain.
Not many Asians around here. Except this one kid in my anthropology class. He's Japanese. As long as you dont call him Chinese or Korean he doesn't really seem to care.

Not really. We learned that in psychology, PC has helped bridge ethnic relations in the United States because if you refer to a group of people by a more respectable term, you end up respecting them a lot more.

To be honest I think race is a stupid concept. If I need to refer to someone "black" I usually refer them as "the person with afro-caribbean ancestry".

Not really. We learned that in psychology, PC has helped bridge ethnic relations in the United States because if you refer to a group of people by a more respectable term, you end up respecting them a lot more.

To be honest I think race is a stupid concept. If I need to refer to someone "black" I usually refer them as "the person with afro-caribbean ancestry".

I find actually knowing enough about a person to say 'you know, the hot Somalian dude who has a thing for native chicks' goes a lot further than saying 'black' or 'the person with afro-caribbean ancestry' which by the way is about the douchiest term I've ever come across.

Oddly enough, I have never heard a black person object to being called black. A lot of them seem to get annoyed by 'African American', though.
Numerous Mexicans I know are downright offended by the 'Hispanic' tag. Apparently its 'Latino' 'round these parts, unless they actually ARE from Spain.
Not many Asians around here. Except this one kid in my anthropology class. He's Japanese. As long as you dont call him Chinese or Korean he doesn't really seem to care.

Yeah... hate to stereotype (which is another thing that annoys me, how the whole free market system relies on stereotypes) but most Asian people (that I know) don't really seem to care about wheter you call them "Asian" or whatever their nationality is. One of my Asian friends did get pretty pissed when I called her "squinty-eyed" though. (jk)

I find actually knowing enough about a person to say 'you know, the hot Somalian dude who has a thing for native chicks' goes a lot further than saying 'black' or 'the person with afro-caribbean ancestry' which by the way is about the douchiest term I've ever come across.

That doesn't exactly work if you're talking about someone you don't really know... like if I don't know a kid's name, I usually say "The (race) (gender) who's kinda (height/weight adjective) and has (distinguishing feature)."

I find actually knowing enough about a person to say 'you know, the hot Somalian dude who has a thing for native chicks' goes a lot further than saying 'black' or 'the person with afro-caribbean ancestry' which by the way is about the douchiest term I've ever come across.

Erm, rephrase please? Sorry it's late at night. :confused:

Obviously, it makes sense to not be maliciously offensive to other people and to know your audience as well as possible. The thing is, you're not going to bump in to "political correctness" very often unless you are being offensive or are dealing with a person with a very thin skin.

On that note, just because you interpret something as "offensive" doesn't mean you have a right to treat others like shit because of it; most people really, genuinely don't want to offend or insult others and usually a forgiving and polite reminder or explanation of your concerns is more than enough to deal with the problem. If the person doesn't respond by changing their behavior, either it's likely they are in fact bigoted or you may be far too sensitive over a given issue and need to reappraise what you're doing.

I think skin tone is something that should be brought up in pretty much every situation. After all, how are your friends going to know what to wear if you don't let them know that your other friends have dark brown skin, or some tone other than white? Do you have ANY idea how embarrasing it is to stand next to someone with 'summer' skin tones, wearing a 'fall' ensemble? I like to slip it in casually, so no one is caught unaware. Like, 'so, we're going to be meeting up with Amy later, by the way she's from Sri Lanka and sort of cafe con leche looking, so don't wear brown unless you want to blend in with her.'

*giggle*

I would actually be deeply amused if people started color-coordinating with their friends' races. :tongue:

*giggle*

I would actually be deeply amused if people started color-coordinating with their friends' races. :tongue:

Yeah, then if they all wore plain color clothes with little detail, it'd look like a bunch of nude zombies were running around... oh wait, that's bad.

Well I'm from MA, "The Gay State" where we are extrememly (in my opinion, at least the people around me are) left-winged, well besides my neighbor/best friend, who thinks video game mass-murders are "cool" (which, admittedly are sometimes) and strongly supports everything the confederates fought for (besides slavery)

Right. So left-winged that we couldn't even legally buy alcohol on Sundays until 2004 or get tattoos legally until 2001, and we STILL can't buy fireworks legally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

We're all familiar with it. We're also familiar with the old bone of ultra-conservatives and/or bigots who claim that it goes too far, that it's either not useful or possibly censors free speech.

There are times where I wonder if that truly is the case. By all means people should be polite; there's no reason to go around a black neighborhood calling everyone ******s (unless you want to get beaten up or possibly shot.) But on that same token I do think there are times where we use political correctness to silence an otherwise useful argument, where we have to be as kind as possible and as such we have our arguments completely overlooked.

What does NSG think?

EDIT:

Ah ha, so Jolt censors the word ****** now? I see. This is a perfect example of what I mean.

It will be interesting to see if they censor the words damn, Hell, fuck, screw, balls, ****, fag. I don't recall them having done so in the past, so why censor the word ****** now, especially given the context in which it was used?

EDIT:

Ok, I see it now. That's pretty lame.

We're all familiar with it. We're also familiar with the old bone of ultra-conservatives and/or bigots who claim that it goes too far, that it's either not useful or possibly censors free speech.


Well, there's the apocryphal incident of someone describing their company as being "back in the African-American" because it would be politically incorrect to say black.

It will be interesting to see if they censor the words damn, Hell, fuck, screw, balls, ****, fag. I don't recall them having done so in the past, so why censor the word ****** now, especially given the context in which it was used?

EDIT:

Ok, I see it now. That's pretty lame.

Shit, son, thats fucked up. If I want to fuckin' say ****** I better fuckin' be able to fuckin' say that fuckin' word. I mean, damn, bitches all up in the administration fucking with the censorship. Fuck that shit, yo. Fuck it all up in the ass.
As the great Tony Montana once said:
What da fuck is dis?

You know, nevermind, I think I find this censor hilarious rather than annoying. Its sort of like when they air Wargames on AMC and censor the 'god' in 'goddamn'.

Shit, son, thats fucked up. If I want to fuckin' say ****** I better fuckin' be able to fuckin' say that fuckin' word. I mean, damn, bitches all up in the administration fucking with the censorship. Fuck that shit, yo. Fuck it all up in the ass.
As the great Tony Montana once said:
What da fuck is dis?

You know, nevermind, I think I find this censor hilarious rather than annoying. Its sort of like when they air Wargames on AMC and censor the 'god' in 'goddamn'.

Yeah. A chocolate chip cookie to the person who figures out what the censored four letter word I used is. And another oreo cookie (I wonder if they'll censor oreo) to the person who tells me why they censored those two words and not fuck and fag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

We're all familiar with it. We're also familiar with the old bone of ultra-conservatives and/or bigots who claim that it goes too far, that it's either not useful or possibly censors free speech.

.
But there are times it goes too far.
like with Niggardly. which has no tie to the N word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%22niggardly%22
or Tar Baby Which can be racial if direct at someone, but is a very useful term with its origins in African folklore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_baby#Term
And then the ever popular water buffalo incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_buffalo_incident

I do see a need to be polite. But when you threaten to kick a student out of university for translating a Yiddish way of saying loud noisy people in to English.
Or when a person is forced to resign because his supposedly educated co workers don't realize niggardly is not a racial term. Given he later got a better job back due to public outcry.
Or when a very useful term for describing a situation such as tar baby can instantly brand a candidate as racist.

I've never really bothered with using the term "African-American" pretty much for the same reasons. It's a rather ridiculous term, really.

I seem to recall hearing (or at least hearing of) someone in the media describing an African citizen who was black as being "African-American". No, actually he's just plain African . . .

I seem to recall hearing (or at least hearing of) someone in the media describing an African citizen who was black as being "African-American". No, actually he's just plain African . . .

That's "African-American African" and I'm pretty sure it's apocryphal.

Yeah. A chocolate chip cookie to the person who figures out what the censored four letter word I used is. And another oreo cookie (I wonder if they'll censor oreo) to the person who tells me why they censored those two words and not fuck and fag.

That'd be c.u.n.t., a disgusting synonym for vagina that I refuse to use on general principles.

That'd be c.u.n.t., a disgusting synonym for vagina that I refuse to use on general principles.

A cookie for you. Now, if we could just figure out why other, equally crass words aren't censored.

May I suggest people look up two pages in Wikipedia to get a handle on the different ways people can be described.

First go to the page for Melbourne, Florida, specifically the section on demographics, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne,_Florida#Demographics). Notice how people are grouped by "race". Notice also how there is a broad brush approach to describing race.

Now go to the Melbourne, Australia page, again specifically the section on demographics, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne#Demographics). Notice now there is not a single appearance of the word "race". Instead, you will find terms like "ethnicity" or "place of birth". A person from England could be any colour - it simply isn't regarded as important.

Race is an artificial construct, supposedly based on genetic make-up. It is no such thing. It is a way of labelling a person in a simplistic way. For example, labelling Colin Powell as "black" is utterly meaningless. He is as American to me as George Bush. Both are ethnically and culturally American.

Melbourne, Australia is far bigger than Melbourne, Florida so you might also look at the incorporated city of Los Angeles, which has an almost identical population (although I am sure the conurbation is far larger), here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles,_California#Demographics). The same breakdown by "race" appears.

I think that the US needs to get over the whole concept of "race".

As a rule in the UK we tend to talk about ethnicity rather than race, so as opposed to black or asian or even white, you get the categories White British, White Irish, White Other, Black Caribbean, Black African, Black Other, Asian Indian, Asian Pakistani... you get the idea (I had to fill out an 'equal opportunities' form just the other day).

Although I always find it irionic that go to great lengths seperating the different white, black and asian (as in indian subcontinent) or indeed different mixed backgrounds yet just have "Chinese" for far east asian. I have always wondered what you'd tick if you were Japanese or Korean: Asian - Other or just Other?

I guess I find "African-American" a little unwieldy. Of the people I know, only the whites use it.

Other than that....

I guess I find "African-American" a little unwieldy. Of the people I know, only the whites use it.

Other than that....

There are two thoughts that occour. The first, whne it comes to these forms, I'm most likey to think, 'fuck off it aint none of your business' and just refuse to fill them in.

Secondly, I just use black, white, asian,and it does me fine.

Yes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20a-exAW6qc

For example, labelling Colin Powell as "black" is utterly meaningless.

Accept, you know.... he is black.

Yeah, we don't like the hispanic label. But I guess I can take it as I take "American". It is your convention.

Accept, you know.... he is black.

Skin pigment is no more significant than eye pigment.

Do you ever hear people in America referred to as blues, browns, greys, greens or hazels?

Eye colour has almost no relationship to culture and a highly unreliable relationship to ethnicity. Just like skin colour. So why draw attention to the Colin Powell's skin colour?

*giggle*

I would actually be deeply amused if people started color-coordinating with their friends' races. :tongue:

Latino is the new black this season.

Not really. We learned that in psychology, PC has helped bridge ethnic relations in the United States because if you refer to a group of people by a more respectable term, you end up respecting them a lot more.

What evidence did they have for that, and how did they prove that the causal relationship between 'use of respectable terms' and 'more actual respect' ran from the former to the latter rather than the other way around (which would seem to make more intuitive sense)?

I'm not necessarily disputing what you say, it's just I've heard the claim made several times before but never defended with evidence.

Skin pigment is no more significant than eye pigment.

Do you ever hear people in America referred to as blues, browns, greys, greens or hazels?

Eye colour has almost no relationship to culture and a highly unreliable relationship to ethnicity. Just like skin colour. So why draw attention to the Colin Powell's skin colour?

Umm because sometimes we need to be able to distinguish between people.

'Dude I went out with Ray last night it was blast!'

'What, Ray from the chippy?'

'Naaa man, you know the other Ray, the black bloke?


And on and on.......

asian (as in indian subcontinent) or indeed different mixed backgrounds yet just have "Chinese" for far east asian. I have always wondered what you'd tick if you were Japanese or Korean: Asian - Other or just Other?

It's sensible. 1/3 of the world's population lives in India and China combined, and I doubt the rest of Asia can match that (I may be wrong, too lazy to look it up now)

'What, Ray from the chippy?'

'Naaa man, you know the other Ray, the black bloke?


And on and on.......

Since I didn't understand about 1/3 of that sentance, I'm gonna assume you're from England.

Since I didn't understand about 1/3 of that sentance, I'm gonna assume you're from England.

Then you would assume correctly.:D

Right. So left-winged that we couldn't even legally buy alcohol on Sundays until 2004 or get tattoos legally until 2001, and we STILL can't buy fireworks legally.

Yeah, but lotsa places still can't buy fireworks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness

We're all familiar with it. We're also familiar with the old bone of ultra-conservatives and/or bigots who claim that it goes too far, that it's either not useful or possibly censors free speech.

Yes, using your definition, it can go overboard - like censoring the word n-igger on a moderated debate forum like this, or the video clip posted above.

But usually, there's no real problem connected to it. We can debate about the use of the term "niggr" here, for example.

Though most of the times I see people cry about how "PC has gone overboard" it is an unfounded complaint, or one that's grounded in bigotry, ignorance and a desire to be rude and hurtful.

Common sense goes a long way.

Skin pigment is no more significant than eye pigment.


Your point?


Do you ever hear people in America referred to as blues, browns, greys, greens or hazels?


No, but I often hear people described as blue eyed, brown eyed, grey eyed, green eyed and hazel eyed.


Eye colour has almost no relationship to culture and a highly unreliable relationship to ethnicity.

So?


Just like skin colour.

If skin colour is also a highly unreliable relationship to ethnicity, then call people who are black - black, and not African American or another retarded name like that, since you shouldn't assume what their ethnicity is.


So why draw attention to the Colin Powell's skin colour?

Who says we're drawing attention to it. I'm just saying he's black, which he is.

What does NSG think?PC is about being polite. Take it too far and it becomes censoring people. Like drinking, parenting, and just about everything else, PC is good in the right doses.

May I suggest people look up two pages in Wikipedia to get a handle on the different ways people can be described.

First go to the page for Melbourne, Florida, specifically the section on demographics, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne,_Florida#Demographics). Notice how people are grouped by "race". Notice also how there is a broad brush approach to describing race.

Now go to the Melbourne, Australia page, again specifically the section on demographics, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melbourne#Demographics). Notice now there is not a single appearance of the word "race". Instead, you will find terms like "ethnicity" or "place of birth". A person from England could be any colour - it simply isn't regarded as important.

Race is an artificial construct, supposedly based on genetic make-up. It is no such thing. It is a way of labelling a person in a simplistic way. For example, labelling Colin Powell as "black" is utterly meaningless. He is as American to me as George Bush. Both are ethnically and culturally American.

Melbourne, Australia is far bigger than Melbourne, Florida so you might also look at the incorporated city of Los Angeles, which has an almost identical population (although I am sure the conurbation is far larger), here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles,_California#Demographics). The same breakdown by "race" appears.

I think that the US needs to get over the whole concept of "race".

I would beg to differ. while I agree race is an artificial construct, refusing to report it in statistics doesn't mean discrimination is based on race is not existent. we record so it is easier to determine if race is a motivating factor.
And there most certainly are issues in Australia in regards to racial strife. for instance the Cronulla riots comes to mind. something about not wanting to share the beach with Arabs (given they were being asses).
Or look at France where it is illegal to official note race in any context. how many races riots have they had in the last 5 years in Paris alone?? 2 ? 3?

Artificially constructed or not ignoring it makes much harder to resolve issues based on it.

PC is about being polite. Take it too far and it becomes censoring people. Like drinking, parenting, and just about everything else, PC is good in the right doses.

I agree. One thing that has always bothered is the hypocrisy of people who use PC as a perjorative. I've seen people on here in the past complain about PCness and then condemn the Westboro Baptist Church "God Hates Fags" members for picketing the funeral processions because its disrespectful, in other words they aren't being PC.

while I agree race is an artificial construct

What exactly do you mean by that?

What exactly do you mean by that?

there is but one race. the human race. everything else black white asian etc.. are just terms we use to divid ourselves based upon appearance.

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0298pctalk.htm

nuff said :p

there is but one race. the human race. everything else black white asian etc.. are just terms we use to divid ourselves based upon appearance.

If that's all you're saying then I agree, but 'man' and 'woman' are also terms we use to divide our species based on physical appearance yet we don't refer to them as social constructs (people may refer to gender as a social construct but not sex itself).