NationStates Jolt Archive

New Orleans told to flee Gustav
Breaking News

The mayor of New Orleans has issued a mandatory evacuation order for the entire city, as Hurricane Gustav bears down on the US Gulf Coast.

Ray Nagin said residents of the city's West Bank should begin moving out at 0800 local time on Sunday, with the East Bank leaving at midday.

He called it "the storm of the century" and added: "You need to be scared".

Gustav, which is forecast to strengthen to a Category 5 storm over the Gulf, is currently passing over Cuba.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7590332.stm


So what do we think boy and girls? Is it time for the city of New Orleans to relocate to sunnier climes?

Is FEMA going to cock this one up as badly as last time?

I guess we're gonna get to see exactly what lessons were learned from Katrina, won't we? This should be educational. :)

The city isn't even recovered from Katrina, is it?

No, it's full of holes. I was there this summer, and although it has revived itself, large parts of it are in a pretty sad condition.


It almost resembles a recovering warzone. :P

Is FEMA going to cock this one up as badly as last time?
New Orleans is still in a shambles and many of the people haven't returned yet (or aren't planning to return at all) so it seems unlikely that Gustav could have worse results than Katrina. The most unfortunate aspect of Gustav is that it has brought all those sad-sacks who wish for the old New Orleans to magically be restored out of the woodwork.
Seriously, the city you grew up in is dead, get used to it and quit hogging air time. I listen to NPR to hear amusing anecdotes about people who've lost their grandmothers to cancer or civil war, not so I can hear yet another person describing how deserted their hellhole of a neighborhood has become.

maybe they shouldn't have built their city in a bowl.

hmmm.

Here we go again. Should be interesting to observe the effect of rebuilding the levies at their preivious strength.

But really, give it up. If the worst case climate change senarios come true, this city's dead anyway. The Government shoold be urging relocation inland, not rebuilding this death trap (albeit in an incompitant and half-assed manner).

Hope for the best, but expect the worst.
Fleeing sounds like the wisest course of action, this could very well be "It" for 'Nawlins'

Incidentally, expect the Democrats to get a boost from any new screw ups. It was Katrina, probably even more than Iraq, that really killed Bush's ratings.

maybe they shouldn't have built their city in a bowl.

hmmm.

Blame the French for that.

I hope New Orleans can come through somewhat okay. That city has been too battered recently and it's utterly ridiculous that as the richest country in the world we've handled it so poorly.

Its hardly fair to lay ALL the blame on FEMA. Sure, they screwed up, but so did everybody else. The entire Katrina response was pretty much fucked on every level.

Anyway, the government is apparently actually preparing to handle this one. My dad's emergency response team got word to get ready to pack and fly over to Louisiana.

As to the political side, if Obama refrains from any 'chocolate city' remarks, he should do fine out of this. The best possible thing he could do is avoid attempting to capitalize on this, because any gains he makes will quickly be wiped out when McCain's campaign rips him a new one for 'getting in the way of restoration efforts' or something.

Blame the French for that.

I hope New Orleans can come through somewhat okay. That city has been too battered recently and it's utterly ridiculous that as the richest country in the world we've handled it so poorly.

To be fair the French built New Orleans on the high ground. It was after the handover that the fools built in the "bowl".

I say declare the bowl unlivable and start clearing it out and returning it to nature. People need to learn that the government is not going to continue to bail them out of obvious bad decisions on where they build there homes.

Its hardly fair to lay ALL the blame on FEMA. Sure, they screwed up, but so did everybody else. The entire Katrina response was pretty much fucked on every level.

Anyway, the government is apparently actually preparing to handle this one. My dad's emergency response team got word to get ready to pack and fly over to Louisiana.

As to the political side, if Obama refrains from any 'chocolate city' remarks, he should do fine out of this. The best possible thing he could do is avoid attempting to capitalize on this, because any gains he makes will quickly be wiped out when McCain's campaign rips him a new one for 'getting in the way of restoration efforts' or something.

Yes. Obama will hardly need to cast blame for a screw up: the media will do that for him. The best he can do is to stay out of it, or perhaps offer his time and money to assist the reconstruction in some way, though that might come off as political oportunism. But what could McCain say?

"How dare my oponent help in the reconstruction!":p

Incidentally, expect the Democrats to get a boost from any new screw ups. It was Katrina, probably even more than Iraq, that really killed Bush's ratings.

I understand the sentiment but I think Katrina doesn't hold a candle to economic problems such as the dollar slide and growing deficit.

To be fair the French built New Orleans on the high ground. It was after the handover that the fools built in the "bowl".

I say declare the bowl unlivable and start clearing it out and returning it to nature. People need to learn that the government is not going to continue to bail them out of obvious bad decisions on where they build there homes.

The Government should help people rebuild, because one bad dessision does not deserve the loss of everything one possesses. And what of those who for what ever reason had no choice but to live in New Orleans?

The Government should help people rebuild. Just not in New Orleans.

I understand the sentiment but I think Katrina doesn't hold a candle to economic problems such as the dollar slide and growing deficit.

Indeed Bush and his fellows have other, far worse screwups to there names.

The government should help people rebuild, because one bad dessision does not warrent the loss of everything one possesses. And what of those who for what ever reason had no choice but to live in New Orleans?

The Government should help people rebuild. Just not in New Orleans.

The government does help people rebuild on a basic level. Now should we expect the government to help those people rebuild in the exact same spot? This is where I have a problem with it. Move the city if need be. It has been done before for cities on the Mississippi. This is a far grander scale but still could be done.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7590332.stm


So what do we think boy and girls? Is it time for the city of New Orleans to relocate to sunnier climes?

Is FEMA going to cock this one up as badly as last time?
Oh, no, no, no, they swear up and down they won't screw up as badly this time.

I channel surfed past a press conference yesterday in which some jackass in one of the new (more competent-looking) FEMA polo shirts was explaining how they figured out that the "reactive" approach of the old FEMA didn't work, and now they're going to be a new, more "proactive" FEMA. Whatever that means.

Yeah...uh...if I was there, I'd be heading to someplace that's not there right about now.

Agreed. The city is dead. The Government has a responsibillity to encourage relocation.

To raise another concern however, I've heard that last time, some in the Bush administration (Karl Rove?) pressured the Louisiana Government to allow an effective declaration of martial law. Isn't there a new state government now, meaning a possibillity that a new Katrina could mean military rule on a peice of American soil? At the least, it should give Bush a chance to deploy Blackwater goons against his own people.:mp::mp5::upyours::(

I understand the sentiment but I think Katrina doesn't hold a candle to economic problems such as the dollar slide and growing deficit.
While those things might be bigger failures, they are also much harder to understand and have a more distributed impact. Katrina, on the other hand, was intensely photogenic, horrifying (the news coverage sounded like something out of a apocalypse novel) and a general failure for the government in general.

Agreed. The city is dead. The Government has a responsibillity to encourage relocation.

To raise another concern however, I've heard that last time, some in the Bush administration (Karl Rove?) pressured the Louisiana Government to allow an effective declaration of martial law. Isn't there a new state government now, meaning a possibillity that a new Katrina could mean military rule on a peice of American soil? At the least, it should give Bush a chance to deploy Blackwater goons against his own people.:mp::mp5::upyours::(
I believe Blackwater goons were deployed in New Orleans the first time around. And yes, I believe there was a suggestion that martial law could be declared, which the then governor turned down.

I believe Blackwater goons were deployed in New Orleans the first time around. And yes, I believe there was a suggestion that martial law could be declared, which the then governor turned down.

Well if that happens, Obama will have to come out and condemn it. Who will want a political oposition so ball-less that the Government can declare martial law while they do nothing?

Oh wait, these are Democrats. Ball-lessness is part of the job description.:p

While those things might be bigger failures, they are also much harder to understand and have a more distributed impact. Katrina, on the other hand, was intensely photogenic, horrifying (the news coverage sounded like something out of a apocalypse novel) and a general failure for the government in general.


Pictures indeed say a thousand words.

I do want to add that Katrina and Andrew in Florida years back and the multiple other region specific storms, fires and earthquakes fade from peoples memories. Losing ones house, job losses on a nation wide scale don't tend to fade so quickly.

Well if that happens, Obama will have to come out and condemn it. Who will want a political oposition so ball-less that the Government can declare martial law while they do nothing?

Oh wait, these are Democrats. Ball-lessness is part of the job description.:p
Yeah, uh-huh, whatever. :rolleyes:

Agreed. The city is dead. The Government has a responsibillity to encourage relocation.

To raise another concern however, I've heard that last time, some in the Bush administration (Karl Rove?) pressured the Louisiana Government to allow an effective declaration of martial law. Isn't there a new state government now, meaning a possibillity that a new Katrina could mean military rule on a peice of American soil? At the least, it should give Bush a chance to deploy Blackwater goons against his own people.:mp::mp5::upyours::(

The military has been deployed dozens if not over a hundred times in US history to quell civil disturbances. That would be an effective declaration of martial law even if it wasn't officially sanctioned. The last time I can remember was in 1992 in Los Angeles to put down the riots.

Yeah, uh-huh, whatever. :rolleyes:

Wow, what a stunningly eloquent responce to my post!


Pity you missed the sarcasm, since you apparently have no sense of humor whatsoever.:rolleyes:

Agreed. The city is dead. The Government has a responsibillity to encourage relocation.

To raise another concern however, I've heard that last time, some in the Bush administration (Karl Rove?) pressured the Louisiana Government to allow an effective declaration of martial law. Isn't there a new state government now, meaning a possibillity that a new Katrina could mean military rule on a peice of American soil? At the least, it should give Bush a chance to deploy Blackwater goons against his own people.:mp::mp5::upyours::(

I live in southern Louisiana, and I highly doubt what you're suggesting.

The military has been deployed dozens if not over a hundred times in US history to quell civil disturbances. That would be an effective declaration of martial law even if it wasn't officially sanctioned. The last time I can remember was in 1992 in Los Angeles to put down the riots.

Saying something has happened is not a good argument for why it should happen. And a protracted situation like Katrina is a different situation from a riot that lasts a couple days.

Do you really want mercenaries know for their illegal actions deployed on American streets, answerable only to the Bush Government? And do you really trust said government not to carry things beyond merely restoring order, to actively cracking down on oponents and setting a precident of increased emergency powers for the executive branch?

I hope I'm worried about nothing. I really do.

I hope I'm worried about nothing. I really do.


I think you are worrying about nothing.

I think you are worrying about nothing.

I just don't like to give a Government which may have stolen at least one election, has radically expanded executive power, and regularily argues for legalized torture the benefit of the doubt.

Isn't this thread going a little off topic? It was not my intention to start another debate on how bad a President Bush is.

Saying something has happened is not a good argument for why it should happen. And a protracted situation like Katrina is a different situation from a riot that lasts a couple days.
The military and Blackwater were involved in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, though, and for good reason. The city had gone feral and order needed to be restored quickly so that people could be gotten to safety and the other immediate problems could be settled.

The military and Blackwater were involved in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, though, and for good reason. The city had gone feral and order needed to be restored quickly so that people could be gotten to safety and the other immediate problems could be settled.

Blackwater has a history of abuses, and I dont trust national security or citizen's rights and safety to a private band of thugs. More likely they need to be disbanded, not put in charge of any critical situation.

Blackwater has a history of abuses, and I dont trust national security or citizen's rights and safety to a private band of thugs. More likely they need to be disbanded, not put in charge of any critical situation.
They weren't in charge, they were under the command of the Department of Homeland Security. They were just extra troops on the ground, which were needed because much of the U.S. military was (and still is) otherwise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)) engaged (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_gulf_war).

Wow, what a stunningly eloquent responce to my post!


Pity you missed the sarcasm, since you apparently have no sense of humor whatsoever.:rolleyes:
I'm sorry I wasn't floored by your brilliant wit, but now that you've insulted me personally, I guess you can feel even wittier. Glad I could help.

The military and Blackwater were involved in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, though, and for good reason. The city had gone feral and order needed to be restored quickly so that people could be gotten to safety and the other immediate problems could be settled.
That's why the military was there. Blackwater was assigned to guard some gated communities and other private properties of wealthy individuals, as far as I recall.

EDIT: Suitable work for mercernaries.

I'm sorry I wasn't floored by your brilliant wit, but now that you've insulted me personally, I guess you can feel even wittier. Glad I could help.

I made an aparrently weak joke. You made a weak response. I replied in kind. I apologise if I unfairly insulted you. There is no need for this thread derailment to continue.

I made an aparrently weak joke. You made a weak response. I replied in kind. I apologise if I unfairly insulted you. There is no need for this thread derailment to continue.
No need at all. Thank you for the apology.

If it is as bad as Katrina, don't criticise Bush and the Republicans in online politicical discussion groups. Last time, (which admittedly was at the height of the anti-Iraq protests) spooks closed down forums that had been bad mouthing Bush's ineptitude in doing nothing to help prevent the New Orleans catastrohe. Websites like "Indemedia" had massive denials of service launched at them by panicking Bush spooks. They really were frightened at having been caufght with their pants down.

If it is as bad as Katrina, don't criticise Bush and the Republicans in online politicical discussion groups. Last time, (which admittedly was at the height of the anti-Iraq protests) spooks closed down forums that had been bad mouthing Bush's ineptitude in doing nothing to help prevent the New Orleans catastrohe. Websites like "Indemedia" had massive denials of service launched at them by panicking Bush spooks. They really were frightened at having been caufght with their pants down.

No one will scare me into giving up my right to free speech that easily. In fact, all the more reason to criticize them as much as possible.

Indeed Bush and his fellows have other, far worse screwups to there names.

I disagree with that. I think gutting the Corps of Engineers' budget on levee maintenance and upgrades yet leaving them in charge of it thus preventing the state and city from taking up the slack in mid 2001 as part of his first tax cut budget package was one of the most thoughtless moves by any person I could imagine. Putting a horse show manager in charge of FEMA was also in the top five.

I disagree with that. I think gutting the Corps of Engineers' budget on levee maintenance and upgrades yet leaving them in charge of it thus preventing the state and city from taking up the slack in mid 2001 as part of his first tax cut budget package was one of the most thoughtless moves by any person I could imagine. Putting a horse show manager in charge of FEMA was also in the top five.

I think the man just hates Mardi Gras:(

I think the man just hates Mardi Gras:(

We'll just move it to Mobile, it's where Mardi Gras started on this continent anyways, and it's above sea level.

Why does everyone always expect the federal government to get involved in every local mishap? Seriously, don't these cities and states in disaster prone parts of the country have anything planned for this sort of thing? It seems like Florida gets slammed with a hurricane or tropical storm every fucking year, even before global warming was on the tip of everyone's tongue when looking for something or someone to blame for all of their problems. If you're going to live in a flood zone then build your house accordingly by either going for piling and pier construction and/or lobby the city for barricades, walls and trenches to control the flow of water. It's also a good idea for the city to put together some kind of community shelter system and/or evacuate citizens with a convoy of buses and other appropriate craft. Do you really need the feds for local issues like this? I should hope not, if so then the mayors and guvs from those cities and states must be pretty damn incompetent.

Why does everyone always expect the federal government to get involved in every local mishap? Seriously, don't these cities and states in disaster prone parts of the country have anything planned for this sort of thing? It seems like Florida gets slammed with a hurricane or tropical storm every fucking year, even before global warming was on the tip of everyone's tongue when looking for something or someone to blame for all of their problems. If you're going to live in a flood zone then build your house accordingly by either going for piling and pier construction and/or lobby the city for barricades, walls and trenches to control the flow of water. It's also a good idea for the city to put together some kind of community shelter system and/or evacuate citizens with a convoy of buses and other appropriate craft. Do you really need the feds for local issues like this? I should hope not, if so then the mayors and guvs from those cities and states must be pretty damn incompetent.
Ah, where to begin...

1) Um...it's what FEMA is for. It's not necessarily that "everyone expects the federal government to get involved in every local mishap." It's more that we expect them to do their goddamned jobs, which is what we pay taxes for. And if they're going to have a Federal Emergency Management Agency (or whatever it is), then that agency had better goddamned step up to the plate and manage some fucking emergencies.

2) The destruction of New Orleans was not just some "local mishap." Aside from being a major US population center, NOLA is also one of the most vital shipping ports in North America. It is the connection point from the Gulf to everything else in the middle of the continent all the way up to and including Canada. That city was not put there just so you could have jazz and a free glimpse of titties once in a while, you know. The loss of NOLA even for a few months, affects the entire nation.

3) Since it affects the entire nation, that makes it appropriate for the feds to get involved in it.

4) Are you kidding me about the cities and states handling a disaster like Katrina? Do you have any notion whatsoever what that takes -- the supplies needed, the logistics of moving them around, the security and emergency services needed? Even after Katrina, do you have no notion of such things? And do you really think an average state or city will have those kinds of resources in hand? Seriously?

5) We are not talking about a few idiots building million dollar houses on sand dunes and then crying when they get washed away by a high tide three months later. We are talking about disasters that knock out whole regions. That is what FEMA and the feds are for.

Please, do not waste people's time with such nonsense.

Why does everyone always expect the federal government to get involved in every local mishap? Seriously, don't these cities and states in disaster prone parts of the country have anything planned for this sort of thing? It seems like Florida gets slammed with a hurricane or tropical storm every fucking year, even before global warming was on the tip of everyone's tongue when looking for something or someone to blame for all of their problems. If you're going to live in a flood zone then build your house accordingly by either going for piling and pier construction and/or lobby the city for barricades, walls and trenches to control the flow of water. It's also a good idea for the city to put together some kind of community shelter system and/or evacuate citizens with a convoy of buses and other appropriate craft. Do you really need the feds for local issues like this? I should hope not, if so then the mayors and guvs from those cities and states must be pretty damn incompetent.

Maybe because the Federal Government made the Mississippi River, it's management, maintenance and upkeep their complete and sole responsibility due to the strategic importance of it as an interstate waterway?

Or am I just being silly?

I doubt it. I think Katrina produced a lot of meaningful and beneficial changes that will be reflected in this storm and those that follow.

Why does everyone always expect the federal government to get involved in every local mishap? Seriously, don't these cities and states in disaster prone parts of the country have anything planned for this sort of thing? It seems like Florida gets slammed with a hurricane or tropical storm every fucking year, even before global warming was on the tip of everyone's tongue when looking for something or someone to blame for all of their problems. If you're going to live in a flood zone then build your house accordingly by either going for piling and pier construction and/or lobby the city for barricades, walls and trenches to control the flow of water. It's also a good idea for the city to put together some kind of community shelter system and/or evacuate citizens with a convoy of buses and other appropriate craft. Do you really need the feds for local issues like this? I should hope not, if so then the mayors and guvs from those cities and states must be pretty damn incompetent.

New Orleans, along with Houston, is vital for gulf oil, which supplies 25% of the nation. Not to mention it is a major port in a very strategic spot, for both the Mississippi and the entire Caribbean.

Oh, and the city has put together a fleet of busses evacuating people. They've been passing my dorm for some time now.

I doubt it. I think Katrina produced a lot of meaningful and beneficial changes that will be reflected in this storm and those that follow.
I hope you're right, but why do you think it?

To all those who say that New Orleans should be relocated, or completely obliterated, why not consider this option:

Raising New Orleans. After the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, the Texan Government raised Galveston by something like seventeen feet; they even took an old church and raised it to the new level (and this was before modern technology). Surely, you could take all of New Orleans' buildings, raise them and dump some earth underneath them and raise the city to a decent height - at the very least, the same level as the levees.

Oh, and Galveston hasn't been as badly effected by a hurricane since they raised the city.

To all those who say that New Orleans should be relocated, or completely obliterated, why not consider this option:

Raising New Orleans. After the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, the Texan Government raised Galveston by something like seventeen feet; they even took an old church and raised it to the new level (and this was before modern technology). Surely, you could take all of New Orleans' buildings, raise them and dump some earth underneath them and raise the city to a decent height - at the very least, the same level as the levees.

Oh, and Galveston hasn't been as badly effected by a hurricane since they raised the city.

I'd take that one step further.

http://venturalandcorp.com/bespin.jpg

New Orleans likely hasn't been rebuilt enough to take as muchd amage from Gustav as it did form katrina, but there's still the chance of levee failure and massive flooding.

And, for the record, New orleans was originally above sea level. Then, in the 1960s or so, they erected levees to block the regular mississippi flooding. Unfortunately, it blocked the silt that regularly comes with the flooding (the same type that let Egypt's nile banks be very rich farmland instead of desert), so there wasn't enough sediment to replace soil washed away., Thus, the city is slowly sinking.

To all those who say that New Orleans should be relocated, or completely obliterated, why not consider this option:

Raising New Orleans. After the 1900 Galveston Hurricane, the Texan Government raised Galveston by something like seventeen feet; they even took an old church and raised it to the new level (and this was before modern technology). Surely, you could take all of New Orleans' buildings, raise them and dump some earth underneath them and raise the city to a decent height - at the very least, the same level as the levees.

Oh, and Galveston hasn't been as badly effected by a hurricane since they raised the city.
That would be an excellent plan, except for one thing: You can't have periodic land grabs for forced redevelopment if you don't let a place get destroyed by disasters and or collapse into economic and social disarray, now can you? How the hell else are all your real estate and construction campaign donors going to get their pay-off? Also, how else are you going to maintain and increase the concentration of wealth into fewer hands and the economic divide between a the powerful rich and the dependent poor, if you set things up so that the poor might be able to have some stability and save some money and even buy a house maybe?

In my cynical moments (which are most of my moments), I know that the US government most certainly did learn a valuable lesson from Katrina, and it is as above.

I agree that rebuilding in the city bowl would be a huge waste of time and money, but the city is simply too important to be abandoned all together. What we should do is abandon the bowl, and rebuild behind the French quarter, which was mostly "untouched" by the disaster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7590332.stm


So what do we think boy and girls? Is it time for the city of New Orleans to relocate to sunnier climes?

Is FEMA going to cock this one up as badly as last time?

well... I don't know about having the supplies there at 'strategic locations' before the storm hits. what if the supplies gets buried? Flooded? destroyed?

I know Mayor Nagin learned. He's ordering mandatory evacts now instead of minutes before the storm hits, has the cops and buses standing by and assisting in the evacuations.

all we can do now is wait and pray.

I'd take that one step further.

http://venturalandcorp.com/bespin.jpg

the commute to and from that place must be a killer... :tongue:

Blame the French for that.

The French weren't the ones who built on floodplains. The French quarter escaped Katrina relatively unscathed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Quarter#Impact_of_Hurricane_Katrina

I hope New Orleans can come through somewhat okay. That city has been too battered recently and it's utterly ridiculous that as the richest country in the world we've handled it so poorly.

They did an episode of Dirty Jobs fairly recently that took place in New Orleans... he was harvesting tadpoles to put in what used to be people's swimming pools to keep mosquito populations low... it didn't look like the city could get much worse.

They should just remove the Old River Control Structure allowing the Mississippi to change course as nature intended and be done with it. Then build a new river port on higher ground on the new river channel. Many of the problems with the N.O. and the delta are directly related to trying to force the river to go where it doesn't belong any more. The mouth of the Mississippi has changed course regularly over the last several thousand years. It's foolish to try to stop it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_River_Control_Structure

Old River Control Structure

The Old River Control Structure is an artifice built by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers at the divergence of the Mississippi and Atchafalaya Rivers in order to maintain the water distribution between the two, at 70% and 30%, respectively. This was done in response to the increasing amounts of water flowing from the Mississippi into the Atchafalaya, due to the latter's shorter and increasingly steeper course to the Gulf of Mexico. The floodgate system was completed in 1963. The complex is located at river mile 315 on the lower Mississippi—315 miles (507 km) up the river from the Gulf of Mexico.

If allowed to flow freely, the Atchafalaya would capture the main flow of the Mississippi, forcing it to bypass its current path through Baton Rouge and New Orleans. The likelihood of this event increases each year, and will eventually happen in spite of human efforts.

The details of the Old River Control system are explored in the "Atchafalaya" section of the book "The Control of Nature" by John McPhee.

They should just remove the Old River Control Structure allowing the Mississippi to change course as nature intended and be done with it. Then build a new river port on higher ground on the new river channel. Many of the problems with the N.O. and the delta are directly related to trying to force the river to go where it doesn't belong any more. The mouth of the Mississippi has changed course regularly over the last several thousand years. It's foolish to try to stop it.


I agree. For thousands of years, civilizations rose, advanced, lasted for many centuries, and left lasting legacies that influenced later generations, by adjusting their lifestyles to follow their rivers, not trying to force their rivers to follow them. Since the 19th century, people have tried to force rivers to obey human will, and humans have gotten their asses kicked, beaten, and drowned by the rivers nearly every year (somewhere in the world) ever since. Yet they haven't figured out that, maybe, just maybe, our arms are too short to box with the Mississippi. Makes you wonder just how thickheaded a species can be and still dominate the world.

Yep, we're gettin ready to hunker down...Just put my various incarnations and nations on "Vacation Mode" lol....

But, we tied everything down and we're gonna wait it out...I dont think itll be as bad as Katrina, Gustav doesnt look near as hardcore...Im expecting more of a Georges level Hurricane...

Although...If you dont hear from me for months, youll know i was wrong, lol....

But, here's hopin it goes better than last time...

Yep, we're gettin ready to hunker down...Just put my various incarnations and nations on "Vacation Mode" lol....

But, we tied everything down and we're gonna wait it out...I dont think itll be as bad as Katrina, Gustav doesnt look near as hardcore...Im expecting more of a Georges level Hurricane...

Although...If you dont hear from me for months, youll know i was wrong, lol....

But, here's hopin it goes better than last time...

Good Luck! Keep your head down and let us know how things are when it's all over.

Good Luck! Keep your head down and let us know how things are when it's all over.
Or keep your head up, depending on the water level. :D Good luck.

Another matter to consider is that the areas of New Orleans that are the most vulnerable to new flooding (the Lower Ninth Ward for one) are still mostly deserted. At the very least death toll would be much lower and the flow of supplies should be much improved. I live in southwestern Mississippi and they've been prepositioning supplies and equipment all over the state since the beginning of the week.

Unfortunately, I still get to work next week because we have a massive generator and plenty of supplies.

Anyone else see the Nagin news conference where he warned any looters will directly go to the Angola prison in general population? You think that will cut down on looting? :tongue:

If it is as bad as Katrina, don't criticise Bush and the Republicans in online politicical discussion groups. Last time, (which admittedly was at the height of the anti-Iraq protests) spooks closed down forums that had been bad mouthing Bush's ineptitude in doing nothing to help prevent the New Orleans catastrohe. Websites like "Indemedia" had massive denials of service launched at them by panicking Bush spooks. They really were frightened at having been caufght with their pants down.

Hmmm... There was plenty of criticism of the administration here and there were no DoSs. Sounds more like Indymedia's typical conspiracy mongering...

I doubt it. I think Katrina produced a lot of meaningful and beneficial changes that will be reflected in this storm and those that follow.

Say what? The levee's are in worse condition (http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=5697168&page=1), FEMA's still farting around w/o plans (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/07/21/america/Disaster-Housing.php), etc. As far as I can tell, the only real changes that have been is that Bush realised he had to act serious about this and Nagin has ordered the evac with plenty of time.

Oh, and the city has put together a fleet of busses evacuating people. They've been passing my dorm for some time now.
Didn't the local government leave a fleet of buses in a lot somewhere and let them get flooded last time in favor of cramming thousands into a stadium with a leaky roof? Seems like last time they had a chance to evac a lot of people but decided not to and then whined about how the feds didn't pick up the slack when things took a turn for the worse. I know that you need more than buses to evac a large group of people (you also need food, water, shelter at the drop off, etc.) but the fact is that NO is vulnerable to hurricanes and flooding and there should have been some planning on the part of the local governments in the event of a disaster like Katrina. That they failed to coe up with a good plan or execute one is a failure on their part.

Criticizing FEMA for a slow response time is fine but you can't just sit back and call for the feds when you don't feel like doing any hard work yourself. Besides, how much experience had FEMA had with disasters on this scale?

I know it sounds callous but these people had a hand in the Katrina disaster by not planning ahead. It's too easy to blame all of our problems on the higher ups. Were mistakes made? Of course, but you can't just pile all of your guilt and shame over the things you did or failed to do on one man and give him the boot. That won't solve anything and it won't help you live with yourself.

Anyone else see the Nagin news conference where he warned any looters will directly go to the Angola prison in general population? You think that will cut down on looting? :tongue:

When he said, "You will go directly to Angola", my eyes widened a bit until he specified the prison.

Sending looters to Angola would've been fun too. ;)

Didn't the local government leave a fleet of buses in a lot somewhere and let them get flooded last time in favor of cramming thousands into a stadium with a leaky roof? Seems like last time they had a chance to evac a lot of people but decided not to and then whined about how the feds didn't pick up the slack when things took a turn for the worse. I know that you need more than buses to evac a large group of people (you also need food, water, shelter at the drop off, etc.) but the fact is that NO is vulnerable to hurricanes and flooding and there should have been some planning on the part of the local governments in the event of a disaster like Katrina. That they failed to coe up with a good plan or execute one is a failure on their part.

Criticizing FEMA for a slow response time is fine but you can't just sit back and call for the feds when you don't feel like doing any hard work yourself. Besides, how much experience had FEMA had with disasters on this scale?

I know it sounds callous but these people had a hand in the Katrina disaster by not planning ahead. It's too easy to blame all of our problems on the higher ups. Were mistakes made? Of course, but you can't just pile all of your guilt and shame over the things you did or failed to do on one man and give him the boot. That won't solve anything and it won't help you live with yourself.
A) I don't believe anyone in this thread blamed ALL of the Katrina disaster on just one agency. It's just that, since FEMA is the topic of the thread, comments tended to be about FEMA. How is that a problem?

B) Do the failings of the local state and city governments mitigate FEMA's failings? No, they do not. Actually, they are irrelevant to FEMA's failings because FEMA's responsibilities were different and separate from the local government's, so the local gov's failure did not in any way contribute to FEMA's failure to do its job. Therefore, it is entirely reasonable to criticize FEMA for what it did not do, without cushioning our remarks with references to what other people also did not do.

C) Two posters (at least) have already explained to you that the resources needed to manage a disaster of such a scale in an area as big as the Gulf region, which includes a city as big as New Orleans, simply are NOT available within the jurisdictions and budgets of state and local governments. That is why there is a FEMA, because such resources can be marshalled at the federal level, whereas they cannot at the state and city level.

Because of this, your criticism that the local governments should have had such plans in place rather than wait for the feds to do it is nonsense. How were they supposed to build such a plan? Out of what?

D) Also, the fact is that they most certainly did have plans in place, plans that were appropriate to their resources, plans for evacuation and shelter. Their failing was not that they did not have plans, it was that when the storm came, they did not implement those plans. So your suggestion that the governor and mayor (and by extension all the mayors of all the affected towns and cities) were just sitting on their hands waiting for Daddy FedMan to come save them is more nonsense. They all made exactly the plans they could and were supposed to. The state failed and the mayor of New Orleans failed to carry out their plans effectively. The mayors of other towns/cities DID NOT fail, but rather stepped up and probably saved many lives before the storm and mitigated as much suffering as possible after it. Yet they, too, were left hanging by FEMA's failures. Or is it your contention that every small town of less than 10,000 people is supposed to be able to marshall at any time all the resources required to rebuild their entire town and replace all its food and water, all by themselves? I'm sorry, but that would be just nuts.

When he said, "You will go directly to Angola", my eyes widened a bit until he specified the prison.

Sending looters to Angola would've been fun too. ;)
I hope he remembered to add the part about, when they go directly to Angola, they don't get to pass Go and collect $200, or else it doesn't quite have the same authority.

When he said, "You will go directly to Angola", my eyes widened a bit until he specified the prison.

Sending looters to Angola would've been fun too. ;)

Heh. I don't know, maybe it's where I grew up, but both Angola and Huntsville are as recognisable to me as Sing-Sing, Folsom, Attica, and Alcatraz...

Fortunately, it looks like Gustav didn't make a direct hit on NOLA. http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080901/D92U1C480.html