NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, so. Picture this: You need the number for "Sam's Deli" in Syndey. (Or you've been overcharged by your phone provider. Or you need to change your phone number. Or, your broadband isn't working.) So you have to call the call centre.

Let's say that the language of your country is English. While it's a multicultural country, everyone speaks English in the workplace, at school, at university: pretty much everywhere.

Now, you nicely ask for "Sam's Deli"
And they say -in broken English with a heavy accent- "Sam D?"
"Sam's Deli".
"Nothing under that listing."
"I know their number is listed. Sam's Deli."
"What city?"
"Sydney"
"I have a Sam D in Brisbane."
"No, Sam's Deli in Sydney!"
"Nothing under that listing."
"How are you spelling it?"
"You don't understand me! Nothing under that listing."

You get the picture.
And then you either end up in this situation:
"Beep Beep Beep.
Or this situation:
"Putting you through to Sam D in Brisbane."

Recently someone I know made a complaint about this and the person said "we can't racially discriminate". Is it really racial discrimination to not employ people who can't speak English when their job depends on their ability to speak the language?

I personally believe, if your job requires you to speak basic English and you can't speak English, then you can't do your job. It's as simple as that.

Thoughts?

Agreed.

I'm against discriminating when you employ people - not just racially. I believe companies should employ handicapped, people from different races and cultures but the job description should include qualifications too.

Just like when you need a Metallurgical Engineer you ask for a diploma (naturally) you should ask for linguistic qualifications for a help desk position, a driving license for a driver position and you cannot employ a quadriplegic for a heavy duty steel construction worksite labor position just like a primary school graduate for IT analyst position.

Cheerio!

Agreed.

I'm against discriminating when you employ people - not just racially. I believe companies should employ handicapped, people from different races and cultures but the job description should include qualifications too.

Just like when you need a Metallurgical Engineer you ask for a diploma (naturally) you should ask for linguistic qualifications for a help desk position, a driving license for a driver position and you cannot employ a quadriplegic for a heavy duty steel construction worksite labor position just like a primary school graduate for IT analyst position.

Cheerio!

Pretty much what they said.

"We can't racially discriminate" is the catch-all term these days for "We don't care" while still managing not to get stuck with the negative PR of being uncaring. More likely, human resources screwed up and nobody cared enough to check to see if the candidate was qualified for the position.

That being said, I don't think discrimination is acceptable in governmental or commercial ventures. All that really matters is whether you can, and are willing, to get the job done or not.

"We can't racially discriminate" is the catch-all term these days for "We don't care" while still managing not to get stuck with the negative PR of being uncaring. More likely, human resources screwed up and nobody cared enough to check to see if the candidate was qualified for the position.Heh. That's most probably true. We have a very "new thing" channel here where you can watch lots of cool sf/f/thriller series in their original languages and Turkish subtitles. Now, they have lots of good translators but some of them are so bad what the subtitle says makes your eyes water sometimes. Some that can be explained to someone who don't speak Turkish include "Die Hard" interpreted as "hard death," "piece of cake" as a literal piece of cake when the person who says the line means that the job is easy and such.

I wrote a long e-mail to them some time ago listing lots and lots of mistakes in the subtitles (spotted by me and a couple of close friends). Now, if you speak English that isn't a problem, just an inconvenience that will kill the suspense for you for a short moment. But if you don't understand English, well, this pretty much ruins the movie for you.

They answered with a "Thank you for your time but our translators are quite capable of doing their job without your help."

It's even worse here I guess :)

Cheerio!

Sounds like the guy didn't realise you wanted a business listing and not a personal listing...

I've never had a problem with talking to outsourced workers in India before. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

gee i dont know. it used to be that service providers trained and tested their employees for fitness in jobs like that.

it wouldnt matter what race/ethnicity/first language anyone has if they could do the job. its not discrimination to require a certain level of proficiency in the job you are employed to do.

I personally believe, if your job requires you to speak basic English and you can't speak English, then you can't do your job. It's as simple as that.

Thoughts?

Agreed

Okay, so. Picture this: You need the number for "Sam's Deli" in Syndey. (Or you've been overcharged by your phone provider. Or you need to change your phone number. Or, your broadband isn't working.) So you have to call the call centre.

Let's say that the language of your country is English. While it's a multicultural country, everyone speaks English in the workplace, at school, at university: pretty much everywhere.

Now, you nicely ask for "Sam's Deli"
And they say -in broken English with a heavy accent- "Sam D?"
"Sam's Deli".
"Nothing under that listing."
"I know their number is listed. Sam's Deli."
"What city?"
"Sydney"
"I have a Sam D in Brisbane."
"No, Sam's Deli in Sydney!"
"Nothing under that listing."
"How are you spelling it?"
"You don't understand me! Nothing under that listing."


But I agree with the understanding and speaking english.
You get the picture.
And then you either end up in this situation:
"Beep Beep Beep.
Or this situation:
"Putting you through to Sam D in Brisbane."

Recently someone I know made a complaint about this and the person said "we can't racially discriminate". Is it really racial discrimination to not employ people who can't speak English when their job depends on their ability to speak the language?

I personally believe, if your job requires you to speak basic English and you can't speak English, then you can't do your job. It's as simple as that.

Thoughts?

I usually end up spelling it.

that's S as in Sandwich... A.. M as in Mark... apostrophe S... D as in Dog... O... G as in Guy

I usually end up spelling it.

that's S as in Sandwich... A.. M as in Mark... apostrophe S... D as in Dog... O... G as in Guy

Why would you be calling Sam's dog?

Its not just overseas call centers. IBM's tech support redirects to Atlanta, Georgia. About half the time I end up (attempting) to talk to somebody who (regardless of race) possesses an amazingly stereotypical accent.

It's nothing to do with discrimination and everything to do with cost.

Why would you be calling Sam's dog?

because he took my shoes! :mad:

~stuff about subtitles~
Cheerio!

I love those wrong translations, my brother and i often play "spot the errors", in one NatGeo program we spotted 3 different wrong translations of miles to kilometres.


I work at a customer service, and we do pay attention to the dutch language ability of our employees, it's essential to speak the language in these kind of jobs, so i don't consider it discimination.

No, it's not racial discrimination, because race has nothing to do with language proficiency. I don't care what ethnicity, gender, age, sexual orientation, religion or pizza preference you have, just understand what I'm saying, speak intelligibly, and get my calls through.

Sounds like the guy didn't realise you wanted a business listing and not a personal listing...

I've never had a problem with talking to outsourced workers in India before. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

I've had plenty of problems on the phone with people with all different accents. Even accents which would be perfectly understandable in person are sometimes difficult on the phone.

Dey took er jerbs!!!!!!!!!!!!

welcome to the wondrous wonders of a call centre!

please leave any hope of rescue at the door

I've never had a problem with talking to outsourced workers in India before. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Mumbai is not actually part of India more a place where the barriers between Earth and hell are at their weakest (luckily the hordes of legion have been stopped thanks to mans continual nuclear bombardment of the region)

welcome to the wondrous wonders of a call centre!

please leave any hope of rescue at the door



Mumbai is not actually part of India more a place where the barriers between Earth and hell are at their weakest (luckily the hordes of legion have been stopped thanks to mans continual nuclear bombardment of the region)

AS A FORMER WORKER FOR A CALL CENTER...

you are pretty much spot on there... :p

Are you sure there's a Sam's Deli in Sydney?

You could always call the one in Brisbane and ask for the number of the store in Sydney.

I've had plenty of problems on the phone with people with all different accents. Even accents which would be perfectly understandable in person are sometimes difficult on the phone.
i had to make a call to tech support some place in great britain not too too too long ago. the man had a perfectly reasonable british accent. i could not understand anything he said unless i already knew what he was going to say. i had to ask him to repeat himself many times.

it was embarrassing.

AS A FORMER WORKER FOR A CALL CENTER...

you are pretty much spot on there... :p

I'd like to point out that I have in the past worked for a major credit card companies fraud department which more or less employs solely 16 year olds with no qualifications or useful training in call handling :tongue:

the funnest part was blocking peoples credit cards when they lost patience with us >.>

You could always call the one in Brisbane and ask for the number of the store in Sydney.

I for one am amazed people still use directory numbers when the google exists

SNIP
you should see our gypsy's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfNb9Qrbfz4&NR=1)

I'd like to point out that I have in the past worked for a major credit card companies fraud department which more or less employs solely 16 year olds with no qualifications or useful training in call handling :tongue:

the funnest part was blocking peoples credit cards when they lost patience with us >.>

I love calling Tech support for say... HP or Dell and forcing them away from the script.

Tech: Have you tried...
Me: yep.
Tech: but I haven't said...
Me: you were going to suggest rebooting the pc
Tech:... um...
Me: then you were going to say to go to the settings and run the HDD Test.
tech:... well...
Me: to which I will now say that the error code was 07
Tech: ... uhmmm...
Me: which is backs up my orignal statement that I need a new harddrive because this one is making a knocking noise and displayed the message that the drive is having a critical failure.
Tech:... let me... uhmm...
Me: you should be asking me for the SN number to check it's under warranty. I did that but you should make sure.
Tech:... uhmm... yeah... can I have the Serial Number...

http://bartlebe.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/herro2.jpg

I love calling Tech support for say... HP or Dell and forcing them away from the script.

Tech: Have you tried...
Me: yep.
Tech: but I haven't said...
Me: you were going to suggest rebooting the pc
Tech:... um...
Me: then you were going to say to go to the settings and run the HDD Test.
tech:... well...
Me: to which I will now say that the error code was 07
Tech: ... uhmmm...
Me: which is backs up my orignal statement that I need a new harddrive because this one is making a knocking noise and displayed the message that the drive is having a critical failure.
Tech:... let me... uhmm...
Me: you should be asking me for the SN number to check it's under warranty. I did that but you should make sure.
Tech:... uhmm... yeah... can I have the Serial Number...

Tech: I'm going to ask you to unplug the computer...
me: from the power source, remove the battery, and hold down the power button for about 10 seconds?
Tech:...
me: just call my psychic. Do you want me to actually do it, or will you take my word that it didn't work?

Sounds like the guy didn't realise you wanted a business listing and not a personal listing...

I've never had a problem with talking to outsourced workers in India before. I don't know what all the fuss is about.Offshored. Unless you're in India, that's not outsourcing.

"We can't racially discriminate" is the catch-all term these days for "We don't care" while still managing not to get stuck with the negative PR of being uncaring. More likely, human resources screwed up and nobody cared enough to check to see if the candidate was qualified for the position.

That being said, I don't think discrimination is acceptable in governmental or commercial ventures. All that really matters is whether you can, and are willing, to get the job done or not.

The thing is human resources didn't screw up once. They "screwed up" a couple hundred times. Every phone company or internet provider I call I can't even speak to them because they don't understand the language. It's not a one off.

Sounds like the guy didn't realise you wanted a business listing and not a personal listing...

I've never had a problem with talking to outsourced workers in India before. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Sweetheart, it's an example. It's happened a hundred times. I don't even think there's a place called "Sam's Deli". If you haven't had a problem with it, perhaps it doesn't happen where you live. In Australia, at least 1 in 3 times you call any kind of phone company or internet provider, they don't speak English.

gee i dont know. it used to be that service providers trained and tested their employees for fitness in jobs like that.

it wouldnt matter what race/ethnicity/first language anyone has if they could do the job. its not discrimination to require a certain level of proficiency in the job you are employed to do.

I agree.

I usually end up spelling it.

that's S as in Sandwich... A.. M as in Mark... apostrophe S... D as in Dog... O... G as in Guy

In my experience, when you spell it, they don't get the letters right or they just put you through to whatever they feel like.

Are you sure there's a Sam's Deli in Sydney?

You could always call the one in Brisbane and ask for the number of the store in Sydney.

Firstly, it was just a made up example. Secondly, you didn't even read it correctly. In this hypothetical situation, he was trying to put the person through to Sam D in Brisbane instead of Sam's Deli in Sydney. This kind of thing happens at least 1 out of 3 times you call directory assistance in my city. Now, in future I suggest you read the original post correctly.

I love calling Tech support for say... HP or Dell and forcing them away from the script.

Tech: Have you tried...
Me: yep.
Tech: but I haven't said...
Me: you were going to suggest rebooting the pc
Tech:... um...
Me: then you were going to say to go to the settings and run the HDD Test.
tech:... well...
Me: to which I will now say that the error code was 07
Tech: ... uhmmm...
Me: which is backs up my orignal statement that I need a new harddrive because this one is making a knocking noise and displayed the message that the drive is having a critical failure.
Tech:... let me... uhmm...
Me: you should be asking me for the SN number to check it's under warranty. I did that but you should make sure.
Tech:... uhmm... yeah... can I have the Serial Number...

That drives me nuts.
And then they transfer you around.
And you have to tell the same story ten times.
Then you get some one who can't speak a word of English, who says "your problem is with internet provider not Dell" when you're asking about something completely different. And then you run out of credit on your mobile phone.

Every phone company or internet provider I call I can't even speak to them because they don't understand the language. It's not a one off.

maybe its you :tongue:

Offshored. Unless you're in India, that's not outsourcing.Perhaps, but I presume it's outsourced as well -- as in the work is done by a third party contractor.

Oh, I just remembered. I've even heard people complaining that they can't understand the person on the phone because they're from up North or down South or whatever. So in that case it's not really offshored.

I've had plenty of problems on the phone with people with all different accents. Even accents which would be perfectly understandable in person are sometimes difficult on the phone.
Sweetheart, it's an example. It's happened a hundred times. I don't even think there's a place called "Sam's Deli". If you haven't had a problem with it, perhaps it doesn't happen where you live. In Australia, at least 1 in 3 times you call any kind of phone company or internet provider, they don't speak English.
I think it's me rather than my environment, because I know other people who have similar problems. I've been moved around a lot in my life and had to cope with lots of different accents. So I'm guessing I'm just used to listening to varied accents. What really screws me over is lack of context. It's weird, if I don't have a general idea of what is being talked about then I find it much harder to understand what is being said.

I've also been told that when I'm learning a new language I'm very quick to starting speaking in the native accent. ie. speaking Spanish in a Spanish accent and not an English one. Maybe it's all related.

Tech: I'm going to ask you to unplug the computer...
me: from the power source, remove the battery, and hold down the power button for about 10 seconds?
Tech:...
me: just call my psychic. Do you want me to actually do it, or will you take my word that it didn't work?

I love it when people try to pull that on me.

User: *explains problem and adds on their life story as to how the computer always worked before*
Me: Ok, please reboot the computer *as I fixed the problem while they were telling me their life story*
User: I did. many times.
Me: ah, but the difference is that I am on the line. I've already sent the patch through and I can see that it was successfully installed on your pc.(total bullshit but they don't know that.)
User:... oh... ok.... *minutes later* ok, it works, thanks.

I'd like to point out that I have in the past worked for a major credit card companies fraud department which more or less employs solely 16 year olds with no qualifications or useful training in call handling :tongue:

the funnest part was blocking peoples credit cards when they lost patience with us >.>

The people I know who work in similar positions in banks, while they may not be university educated, aren't 16 and are somewhat trained.



I for one am amazed people still use directory numbers when the google exists

Because some people aren't at their computer desk in their loser den all day?


maybe its you :tongue:

Hmm, no.

Perhaps, but I presume it's outsourced as well -- as in the work is done by a third party contractor.

Oh, I just remembered. I've even heard people complaining that they can't understand the person on the phone because they're from up North or down South or whatever. So in that case it's not really offshored.

I think it's me rather than my environment, because I know other people who have similar problems. I've been moved around a lot in my life and had to cope with lots of different accents. So I'm guessing I'm just used to listening to varied accents. What really screws me over is lack of context. It's weird, if I don't have a general idea of what is being talked about then I find it much harder to understand what is being said.

I've also been told that when I'm learning a new language I'm very quick to starting speaking in the native accent. ie. speaking Spanish in a Spanish accent and not an English one. Maybe it's all related.

I'm not talking about being able to 'cope with different accents'. The problem is when they can't understand you, not the other way around.

I'm not talking about being able to 'cope with different accents'. The problem is when they can't understand you, not the other way around.Sorry, still don't have that problem... I was just linking the two things up as they are very much related. :tongue:

I do remember when I went out to Spain this year. We met a British expat who was giving Spanish classes to newer arrivals. She said she'd found the key to getting to locals to understand you was to speak in their own accent. That way even if you mangled the word terribly there was still a high chance of being understood. But get the word right whilst speaking in a foreign accent and they'd just look at you blankly.

It shows in that my Mum thinks I speak much better Spanish than her. Whereas I think we're at the same level, but she just happens to speak in an English accent.

Sounds like the guy didn't realise you wanted a business listing and not a personal listing...

I've never had a problem with talking to outsourced workers in India before. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

Well this may not be a centre that works outside of Australia, I have called up centres I know are in Australia and their English is very poor.

Well this may not be a centre that works outside of Australia, I have called up centres I know are in Australia and their English is very poor.Damn colonials, I've the right mind to fetch my gun and teach all you the Queen's English.

The people I know who work in similar positions in banks, while they may not be university educated, aren't 16 and are somewhat trained.

pfft call the number on the back of your card and ask :p

Because some people aren't at their computer desk in their loser den all day?

welcome to the 21st century (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6309593.stm)

and its not a loser den if I have a fruit bowl nearby

Hmm, no.

I can't understand you :confused:

I often get annoyed with tech support; If I call a tech person its because I am having an issue that the typical solutions do not fix, and some atypical ones don't. Sometimes I'll even get a person who knows less about the [insert broken thing] than I do and THAT is really annoying. I know where the OP comes from with the language thing too as I have dealt many times with people who do not seemt o speak english well. Maybe it also has something to do with the phone connections?

Ooh, that's a good point. Phones only transmit from about 300 Hz to 3,000 Hz. And human hearing has a range of 20,000Hz. That's a whole lot of sound you don't get to hear.

Sorry, still don't have that problem... I was just linking the two things up as they are very much related. :tongue:

I do remember when I went out to Spain this year. We met a British expat who was giving Spanish classes to newer arrivals. She said she'd found the key to getting to locals to understand you was to speak in their own accent. That way even if you mangled the word terribly there was still a high chance of being understood. But get the word right whilst speaking in a foreign accent and they'd just look at you blankly.

It shows in that my Mum thinks I speak much better Spanish than her. Whereas I think we're at the same level, but she just happens to speak in an English accent.

The thing is it's not really related (in my opinion).

There's a huge difference between someone not being able to speak a language therefore making them unable to do their job and people having forein accents.

pfft call the number on the back of your card and ask :p

Did you miss the part where I said people I know?
If I did call the number on the back of my card, I can list at least five people I know. All of whom are well into their 30s and above, and most of whom are competent. There's one exception with this fat bitch, but we won't go there.

Getting back on topic: It's a very multicultural workplace (I've been in the call centre because as I said I know people who work there) but all of the people can speak English.... even the fattie.


I can't understand you :confused:

I'm not quite sure why you're attacking me. Is it fun or something? Look, if you haven't experienced call centre workers for phone or internet companies that can't speak English, then perhaps this isn't the thread for you.

That would seem logical -- if you can't DO the job, you can't KEEP the job.

Its not just overseas call centers. IBM's tech support redirects to Atlanta, Georgia. About half the time I end up (attempting) to talk to somebody who (regardless of race) possesses an amazingly stereotypical accent.
It is English, though. Your inability to hear it correctly is not the worker's fault.

I usually end up spelling it.

that's S as in Sandwich... A.. M as in Mark... apostrophe S... D as in Dog... O... G as in Guy

Use the NATO phonetic alphabet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

People have their own ideas of what a clean sounding letter is that's not always the case. The phonetic alphabet is designed to be clear.

Sorry, still don't have that problem... I was just linking the two things up as they are very much related. :tongue:

I do remember when I went out to Spain this year. We met a British expat who was giving Spanish classes to newer arrivals. She said she'd found the key to getting to locals to understand you was to speak in their own accent. That way even if you mangled the word terribly there was still a high chance of being understood. But get the word right whilst speaking in a foreign accent and they'd just look at you blankly.

It shows in that my Mum thinks I speak much better Spanish than her. Whereas I think we're at the same level, but she just happens to speak in an English accent.
why would anyone speak spanish with an english accent on purpose?

its INTONATION that you have to work on. if you get the rhythm of the words right it goes a very long way toward being understood.

if you think about that when you are listening to non-native speakers you will realize that the accent is easy to understand when the rhythm of the words is right and almost impossible to understand if its wrong no matter how accurate the pronunciation of the individual words.

I'm not quite sure why you're attacking me. Is it fun or something? Look, if you haven't experienced call centre workers for phone or internet companies that can't speak English, then perhaps this isn't the thread for you.Hold up there. I think you're taking this too personally. Don't view it as people attacking you, but as people talking to you about their experiences and you of yours. And that just because two people have different experiences it doesn't make either of them wrong. And if people are being extra friendly they might even tease you a bit - still doesn't mean they're attacking you. ;)

The thing is it's not really related (in my opinion).

There's a huge difference between someone not being able to speak a language therefore making them unable to do their job and people having forein accents.Ah, well I see speaking and hearing as two sides of the same coin as communication is a two-way thing. Going back to the Spain example. In Andalucia they drop their S's. So if they were asking for Sam's Deli they might say 'Am-e Deli' (S in pluralisation is slightly different again).

So it's all about what people do to try and make themselves understood and what they do to try and understand others.

why would anyone speak spanish with an english accent on purpose?

its INTONATION that you have to work on. if you get the rhythm of the words right it goes a very long way toward being understood.

if you think about that when you are listening to non-native speakers you will realize that the accent is easy to understand when the rhythm of the words is right and almost impossible to understand if its wrong no matter how accurate the pronunciation of the individual words.Well we hadn't spoken any Spanish for a couple of years and we only there for a week. I'm just very much quicker at picking up accents and mannerisms. I don't even do it consciously. It's like once one of my friends asked why I was speaking with a slight American accent. I'd no idea I was doing it. All that had happened was that I'd just watched about 1hr of Scrubs on TV.

Hold up there. I think you're taking this too personally. Don't view it as people attacking you, but as people talking to you about their experiences and you of yours. And that just because two people have different experiences it doesn't make either of them wrong. And if people are being extra friendly they might even tease you a bit - still doesn't mean they're attacking you. ;)

Ah, well I see speaking and hearing as two sides of the same coin as communication is a two-way thing. Going back to the Spain example. In Andalucia they drop their S's. So if they were asking for Sam's Deli they might say 'Am-e Deli' (S in pluralisation is slightly different again).

So it's all about what people do to try and make themselves understood and what they do to try and understand others.

Have you failed to read the OP? The Spain example is irrelevant. Accents are irrelevant. If someone can't actually speak a language well enough to know what "Sam's Deli" -for example- means or how it is spelt, when their job relies on their ability to find "Sam's Deli", they can't do their job.

I think you're failing to understand the entire topic.

Use the NATO phonetic alphabet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

People have their own ideas of what a clean sounding letter is that's not always the case. The phonetic alphabet is designed to be clear.

Or perhaps people could just learn the language they're required to work in.

Have you failed to read the OP? The Spain example is irrelevant. Accents are irrelevant. If someone can't actually speak a language well enough to know what "Sam's Deli" -for example- means or how it is spelt, when their job relies on their ability to find "Sam's Deli", they can't do their job.

I think you're failing to understand the entire topic.I think I understand perfectly and still believe accents are important. Accents reflect the tones and stresses and rhythms in a language that we are used to. When learning a new language the changes in these things can cause a real barrier to communication if the communicators aren't prepared or equipped to cope with their differences in pronunciation. Someone else in the thread has even highlighted that even people with the same mother tongue can have trouble communicating if they have different regional accents.

Or perhaps people could just learn the language they're required to work in.

They know the language just fine. You just don't understand their accent and they don't understand yours. There is an enormous gulf of a difference.

They know the language just fine. You just don't understand their accent and they don't understand yours. There is an enormous gulf of a difference.

Fine. If your job is to understand English spoken with an Australian accent, you should be able to understand English spoken with an Australian accent. If you can't, you can't do your job.

The thing is human resources didn't screw up once. They "screwed up" a couple hundred times. Every phone company or internet provider I call I can't even speak to them because they don't understand the language. It's not a one off.

Business as usual eh?

Fine. If your job is to understand English spoken with an Australian accent, you should be able to understand English spoken with an Australian accent. If you can't, you can't do your job.

They generally have little trouble understanding the callers accent, as they are exposed to many of them on a daily basis (an Indian working in a call center for American callers, for example)

Okay, so. Picture this: You need the number for "Sam's Deli" in Syndey. (Or you've been overcharged by your phone provider. Or you need to change your phone number. Or, your broadband isn't working.) So you have to call the call centre.

Let's say that the language of your country is English. While it's a multicultural country, everyone speaks English in the workplace, at school, at university: pretty much everywhere.

Now, you nicely ask for "Sam's Deli"
And they say -in broken English with a heavy accent- "Sam D?"
"Sam's Deli".
"Nothing under that listing."
"I know their number is listed. Sam's Deli."
"What city?"
"Sydney"
"I have a Sam D in Brisbane."
"No, Sam's Deli in Sydney!"
"Nothing under that listing."
"How are you spelling it?"
"You don't understand me! Nothing under that listing."

You get the picture.
And then you either end up in this situation:
"Beep Beep Beep.
Or this situation:
"Putting you through to Sam D in Brisbane."

Recently someone I know made a complaint about this and the person said "we can't racially discriminate". Is it really racial discrimination to not employ people who can't speak English when their job depends on their ability to speak the language?

Well, technically not...

However, the object of humor you and other complainers tend to revolve around is how funny those foreign people sound. For example your own 'dialogue' right there; completely unnecessary but adds that "let's laugh at non-English-speaking-peoples" shtick. That tends to stain the righteousness of your complaints with a xenophobic, intolerant tinge.

Another thing is that people who, in my experience, most complain about how no one speaks English are people who are generally racist. Now, I'm not saying everyone who makes a complaint like this is a racist. But again there's this racist undertone, a connotation which you can't avoid, because you're sharing a behavior that's characteristic of racists.

And looking at it from the other side, one wonders how much complaining the Example Indian did about getting your call.

How people at that kind of job - answering to indignant, angry people on the telephone all day - can ever stand to put up with you, your attitude! The truth is he probably puts up with it because he can't get a better job, one that would spare him the wrath of angry girls, and because he has to work somewhere just to feed himself and his family. I doubt there's welfare or unemployment checks he can look forward to if he should lose his job. So can you ask me to blame him for not knowing English as completely as you or, for example, I? Can I really blame him for not 'being able to do his job' when he quite clearly can do his job well enough not to get fired (the least you can really ask of anyone)? Can you really win my sympathy over his?

Nope.

Well, technically not...

However, the object of humor you and other complainers tend to revolve around is how funny those foreign people sound. For example your own 'dialogue' right there; completely unnecessary but adds that "let's laugh at non-English-speaking-peoples" shtick. That tends to stain the righteousness of your complaints with a xenophobic, intolerant tinge.

Another thing is that people who, in my experience, most complain about how no one speaks English are people who are generally racist. Now, I'm not saying everyone who makes a complaint like this is a racist. But again there's this racist undertone, a connotation which you can't avoid, because you're sharing a behavior that's characteristic of racists.

And looking at it from the other side, one wonders how much complaining the Example Indian did about getting your call.

How people at that kind of job - answering to indignant, angry people on the telephone all day - can ever stand to put up with you, your attitude! The truth is he probably puts up with it because he can't get a better job, one that would spare him the wrath of angry girls, and because he has to work somewhere just to feed himself and his family. I doubt there's welfare or unemployment checks he can look forward to if he should lose his job. So can you ask me to blame him for not knowing English as completely as you or, for example, I? Can I really blame him for not 'being able to do his job' when he quite clearly can do his job well enough not to get fired (the least you can really ask of anyone)? Can you really win my sympathy over his?

Nope.

So, what you're saying is that a person's need for a job is more important than his/her ability to do the job.

Next you'll be saying that it's ok to pay a single woman less than a married man for the same job.

<snip>Next you'll be saying that it's ok to pay a single woman less than a married man for the same job.Ah, the age old curse I've been trying to shake - once thought about a fake marriage even... (no, mate, I'm a bloke but all the same...)

Cheerio!

*snip*

Quite funny Clomata, paint the company as a xenophobe and a racist in order to try and prove some point. It of course has nothing to do about their background and has everything to do about people not being able to speak properly in the job where it is required.

Well, technically not...

However, the object of humor you and other complainers tend to revolve around is how funny those foreign people sound. For example your own 'dialogue' right there; completely unnecessary but adds that "let's laugh at non-English-speaking-peoples" shtick. That tends to stain the righteousness of your complaints with a xenophobic, intolerant tinge.

Another thing is that people who, in my experience, most complain about how no one speaks English are people who are generally racist. Now, I'm not saying everyone who makes a complaint like this is a racist. But again there's this racist undertone, a connotation which you can't avoid, because you're sharing a behavior that's characteristic of racists.

And looking at it from the other side, one wonders how much complaining the Example Indian did about getting your call.

How people at that kind of job - answering to indignant, angry people on the telephone all day - can ever stand to put up with you, your attitude! The truth is he probably puts up with it because he can't get a better job, one that would spare him the wrath of angry girls, and because he has to work somewhere just to feed himself and his family. I doubt there's welfare or unemployment checks he can look forward to if he should lose his job. So can you ask me to blame him for not knowing English as completely as you or, for example, I? Can I really blame him for not 'being able to do his job' when he quite clearly can do his job well enough not to get fired (the least you can really ask of anyone)? Can you really win my sympathy over his?

Nope.Those companies do not employ those people because they all can do their jobs. It is simply the appeal of cheap labor. Similarly, no one here is assuming if a person is not a native speaker he or she can't do a help line job.

I've mixed heritage, been a minority around here all my life and have seen discrimination and honest, logical necessities as reason for not employing me - I also saw, more than once, discrimination in another sense. Too many people assume I'd work for less since they think I can't find a decent job with my hair and the attitude and the earrings :)

This may even be racism on the company's part.

Nah, that's too complicated and malicious to be true for an inefficient construct such as a help line. Oh, yeah, and it is not racism when it is about the way you wear your hair, is it? All hail Hanlon.

Cheerio!

Use the NATO phonetic alphabet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

People have their own ideas of what a clean sounding letter is that's not always the case. The phonetic alphabet is designed to be clear.

F as in Frank works better than F as in Foxtrot. But other than that... good. Yes. Good NATO.

They generally have little trouble understanding the callers accent, as they are exposed to many of them on a daily basis (an Indian working in a call center for American callers, for example)

Clearly that's not what I'm complaining about, is it? But, while we're on that tangent...
If I don't understand someone's accent, it's my fault. However, there is a degree to which someone working in a call centre should have an accent. After all, if your job relies on communication, and your accent is imcomprehensible to the majority of callers, you can not do your job either.

Well, technically not...

However, the object of humor you and other complainers tend to revolve around is how funny those foreign people sound. For example your own 'dialogue' right there; completely unnecessary but adds that "let's laugh at non-English-speaking-peoples" shtick. That tends to stain the righteousness of your complaints with a xenophobic, intolerant tinge.

My hypothetical dialogue may appear funny to some because it rings true.

Anyone on here will testify that I am not racist.

Another thing is that people who, in my experience, most complain about how no one speaks English are people who are generally racist. Now, I'm not saying everyone who makes a complaint like this is a racist. But again there's this racist undertone, a connotation which you can't avoid, because you're sharing a behavior that's characteristic of racists.

I will agree with you that some people who complain about how no one speaks English is racist, and that's what really gets to me. If I do complain about it to some people they're like "fucking Curries" and that upsets me. I'm not complaining about anyone's ethnicity, country of birth or language they speak at home. I just think it's wrong for anyone who can't communicate in the language they are required to communicate in to have a job that requires them to communicate!

There is no racist undertone. You are choosing to see one because you are of the belief that language and race go hand in hand. They don't. It's a simple case of being able to do your job.

If 170kg woman wanted to be an air hostess, there would be some issues: she simple would not be able to do her job. However, some would say "you hate fat peope, you're discriminating". It's not discrimination: if you can't fit down the isles easily and quickly, you can't do your job.

And looking at it from the other side, one wonders how much complaining the Example Indian did about getting your call.

If he did complain, that would be extremely poor behaviour on his part. I know people who work in call centres, and the ones who are good at their job do not complain about customers.

How people at that kind of job - answering to indignant, angry people on the telephone all day - can ever stand to put up with you, your attitude! The truth is he probably puts up with it because he can't get a better job, one that would spare him the wrath of angry girls, and because he has to work somewhere just to feed himself and his family. I doubt there's welfare or unemployment checks he can look forward to if he should lose his job.

Unfortunately, that's the nature of call centre jobs. Many callers are angry. However, everyone has to work, and when people can't do their jobs they get fired.


So can you ask me to blame him for not knowing English as completely as you or, for example, I?

I don't blame him. I blame the employer. They should provide better training.

Can I really blame him for not 'being able to do his job' when he quite clearly can do his job well enough not to get fired (the least you can really ask of anyone)?

Except when people complain about someone not speaking the language well enough to do their job, employers pull the "we can't discriminate card" which is completely irrelevant.

Can you really win my sympathy over his?

Nope.

Well, then.

Quite funny Clomata, paint the company as a xenophobe and a racist in order to try and prove some point. It of course has nothing to do about their background and has everything to do about people not being able to speak properly in the job where it is required.

THANK YOU!

It is English, though. Your inability to hear it correctly is not the worker's fault.

I beg to differ. When I first came to the town I currently live in, I couldn't understand most of the people. I really couldn't even understand my teacher... And truth be told, I still have trouble understanding people with southern accents. Such is what happens when you spend your formative years in a tourist town. :p

It's really not the fault of one party and one party alone. When different ways of speaking clash, the results are often frustrating, and sometimes hilarious. Nobody can really be blamed for it, though I will go out on a limb and say it irks me that people can actually be fine with speaking in a dixieland tongue... To me, it just sounds, I dunno, kind of retarded. Sure, not always, but a lot of the time...

Quite funny Clomata, paint the company as a xenophobe and a racist in order to try and prove some point.

Erm. What "company" did I so "paint?"

And maybe if you actually read what I said, instead of *snipping* it, you wouldn't look so silly admitting that you have no idea what the point was, since it flew so high over your head that your only option is sheer dismissal.

It of course has nothing to do about their background and has everything to do about people not being able to speak properly in the job where it is required.

When you've shown you can communicate with me, then I will take more seriously your lecture on communication.

So, what you're saying is that a person's need for a job is more important than his/her ability to do the job.

In this case, yes.

Because in this case the person's need for a job translates to a basic human need for food, clothing, shelter.

And the 'ability to do' the job in question translates to Amor Pulchritudo finding the number of Sam's Deli in Brisbane.

Which one is more important? Gosh. That's a tough one.

Next you'll be saying that it's ok to pay a single woman less than a married man for the same job.

Right, because that totally follows from my reasoning and reveals my obvious bias against women.

Oh wait, it doesn't, and you're completely wrong.

Those companies do not employ those people because they all can do their jobs. It is simply the appeal of cheap labor.

Labor can be absolutely FREE, yet completely USELESS if said labor is so inefficient that profits drop. I'm assuming in this case that it isn't.

My hypothetical dialogue may appear funny to some because it rings true.

And because it makes fun of certain foreign accents. Don't pretend it isn't or that it doesn't.

Anyone on here will testify that I am not racist.

Quite irrelevant to what I said.

I will agree with you that some people who complain about how no one speaks English is racist, and that's what really gets to me. If I do complain about it to some people they're like "fucking Curries" and that upsets me. I'm not complaining about anyone's ethnicity, country of birth or language they speak at home. I just think it's wrong for anyone who can't communicate in the language they are required to communicate in to have a job that requires them to communicate!

No, you think it's wrong that you got personally inconvenienced. If you weren't, this wouldn't even be an issue, the topic wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And communication is a two-way street, as Kat and others are trying to point out, you're awful quick to point out that the guy "can't communicate" when quite clearly he could communicate.

There is no racist undertone.

Sadly there is.

You are choosing to see one because you are of the belief that language and race go hand in hand.

I am not of that belief and I'm not inventing the concept of racist undertones in modern society.

If 170kg woman wanted to be an air hostess, there would be some issues: she simple would not be able to do her job. However, some would say "you hate fat peope, you're discriminating". It's not discrimination: if you can't fit down the isles easily and quickly, you can't do your job.

Yeah, and if you made a ranting post in which you cleverly described how her fat jiggled as she did go down the isles, and how she didn't go down the isles easily and quickly enough to your standards and how thus she "can't" do her job, I would disagree here too.

If he did complain, that would be extremely poor behaviour on his part. I know people who work in call centres, and the ones who are good at their job do not complain about customers.

I know people who work on phones and have to put up with petulant, obnoxious customers too and they are well within their rights to complain about it.

Or what, you get to complain, but not him?

Unfortunately, that's the nature of call centre jobs. Many callers are angry. However, everyone has to work, and when people can't do their jobs they get fired.

He wasn't fired. Thus, he can do his job to the satisfaction of them whose opinion of "can do the job" actually matters; the employers.

The fact that you're angry about your 5-10 minutes of inconvenience and want him fired, and want his family to starve to death while his underage children are forced into prostitution is really beside the point, isn't it?

Except when people complain about someone not speaking the language well enough to do their job, employers pull the "we can't discriminate card" which is completely irrelevant.

Maybe they only pull that card because it's easier than trying to get you to understand that your ability to communicate is apparently lacking. I mean given how long this thread is and how little your mind is changing, when we're all writing English just fine, tells me something right now.

.

-Snip-

In this case, yes.

Because in this case the person's need for a job translates to a basic human need for food, clothing, shelter.

And the 'ability to do' the job in question translates to Amor Pulchritudo finding the number of Sam's Deli in Brisbane.
Which one is more important? Gosh. That's a tough one.


Right, because that totally follows from my reasoning and reveals my obvious bias against women.

Oh wait, it doesn't, and you're completely wrong.

-Snip-



Or maybe the inability to do his job properly results in more people out of work because he can neither understand what is being said, nor can make himself understood. He was hired to communicate with customers, Amor is a customer, so, by extension, is Sam's Deli. If people aren't being efficiently directed to Sam's Deli, he loses business. If he loses enough business, he lays people off - people who need their jobs just as much as he does, and probably do them better. (Oh, and just incidentally, Amor wasn't hired to understand him, he was hired to understand her and all the other customers he's dealing with - the onus is on him and his employer).

And the reasoning does follow, since you're criteria for employability seems to be directly related to need rather than abililty, then, by your logic, the married man needs more money than the single woman.

Or maybe the inability to do his job properly results in more people out of work

And maybe if I flap my wings hard enough I can fly!

because he can neither understand what is being said, nor can make himself understood. He was hired to communicate with customers, Amor is a customer, so, by extension, is Sam's Deli.

Nonsense. Sam's Deli is not a "customer" of the call center.

If people aren't being efficiently directed to Sam's Deli, he loses business. If he loses enough business, he lays people off - people who need their jobs just as much as he does, and probably do them better.

Sam's Deli's business practices are not in any way the fault of nor caused by some guy at the call center. Fail.

(Oh, and just incidentally, Amor wasn't hired to understand him, he was hired to understand her and all the other customers he's dealing with - the onus is on him and his employer).

Amor may not have been hired to understand him, but the fact that she didn't is no reason he should be fired.

Communication IS a two way street. Otherwise, I can just go around town saying "La la la, I can't understand you!" and somehow its the fault of clerks I talk to for their inability to communicate? Har.

And the reasoning does follow, since you're criteria for employability seems to be directly related to need rather than abililty, then, by your logic, the married man needs more money than the single woman.

By my logic the man needs to feed his family more than Amor Pulchitrudo needs to have some guy fired so she can feel better.

That in no way is my "criteria for employability," nor is it some sort of misogyny as you've been cutely trying to apply; it's the common sense that you and others in this thread seem to be lacking. I guess it's easier to empathize with the apparently-attractive internet chick you know than some guy who can't even speak Good English like you and I.

Oh, by the way, you misspelled "ability." Therefore you can't communicate [to my arbitrarily set and subjectively measured standards of communication]. Therefore if you have a job that requires communication, you can't do your job [in my opinion even though I'm not your employer]. Therefore you should get fired. Right?

Nonsense. Sam's Deli is not a "customer" of the call center.

Well, yes, in a way, they are. Companies pay to have their names listed in the Yellow Pages, for example.



Amor may not have been hired to understand him, but the fact that she didn't is no reason he should be fired.

Firstly, this isn't a solitary case. If you read the thread, you'll find that many people have had the same experience.

Secondly, it's not that I dont understand him. He - in this hypothetical situation - did not understand me, which is my complaint.

Thirdly, if your job relies on your ability to communicate with the customer and you can't do that job, it IS a reason to be fired.

Communication IS a two way street. Otherwise, I can just go around town saying "La la la, I can't understand you!" and somehow its the fault of clerks I talk to for their inability to communicate? Har.

The style of your debating suggests that perhaps you do in fact walk around doing that.



By my logic the man needs to feed his family more than Amor Pulchitrudo needs to have some guy fired so she can feel better.

He doesn't deserve his job if he can't do his job. His family is irrelevant.

That in no way is my "criteria for employability," nor is it some sort of misogyny as you've been cutely trying to apply; it's the common sense that you and others in this thread seem to be lacking. I guess it's easier to empathize with the apparently-attractive internet chick you know than some guy who can't even speak Good English like you and I.

Oh, puh-lease. How is my appearance or gender relative? You're calling me racist (which I'm not) and you're being sexist. :rolleyes:

If he can't speak "good" English, he can't do his damn job.

Oh, by the way, you misspelled "ability." Therefore you can't communicate [to my arbitrarily set and subjectively measured standards of communication]. Therefore if you have a job that requires communication, you can't do your job . Therefore you should get fired. Right?

No. However, if your job was to look up "Ability Kitchens" in the phone directory and you didn't know how to spell "Ability" or what a kitchen was, you shouldn't be employed in the first place.

Erm. What "company" did I so "paint?"

Me. As racist.

Because in this case the person's need for a job translates to a basic human need for food, clothing, shelter.

Then he should get a job he can get.

And the 'ability to do' the job in question translates to Amor Pulchritudo finding the number of Sam's Deli in Brisbane.

Which one is more important? Gosh. That's a tough one.

Read the OP. It's Sydney, not Brisbane, and as I've said it's a hypothetical. But good on you for critisizing everyone else's ability to communicate, whilst standing up for a hypothetical person who can't communicate in the language that he is required to, while proving that you're incapable of reading comprehension.

And it's nothing to do with his family. If he wants to feed his family, he should get a different job. That being said, I believe it's the employers responsibility to train employees sufficiently. If he were properly trained, he would not have to be fired, because he would be able to do his job. I am in no way blaming the employee, but rather the employer.



Right, because that totally follows from my reasoning and reveals my obvious bias against women.

Oh wait, it doesn't, and you're completely wrong.

FAIL.

No, you think it's wrong that you got personally inconvenienced. If you weren't, this wouldn't even be an issue, the topic wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

No way, really?

I am not of that belief and I'm not inventing the concept of racist undertones in modern society.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, and if you made a ranting post in which you cleverly described how her fat jiggled as she did go down the isles, and how she didn't go down the isles easily and quickly enough to your standards and how thus she "can't" do her job, I would disagree here too.

Hmm, no.



I know people who work on phones and have to put up with petulant, obnoxious customers too and they are well within their rights to complain about it.

Or what, you get to complain, but not him?

You clearly have never worked in customer service. "The customer is always right."

He wasn't fired. Thus, he can do his job to the satisfaction of them whose opinion of "can do the job" actually matters; the employers.

The employers don't have a high enough standard. They should be training them.

The fact that you're angry about your 5-10 minutes of inconvenience and want him fired, and want his family to starve to death while his underage children are forced into prostitution is really beside the point, isn't it?

How do you know that's even the case? You're making wild, ubsubstantiated claims.

Maybe they only pull that card because it's easier than trying to get you to understand that [i]your ability to communicate is apparently lacking. I mean given how long this thread is and how little your mind is changing, when we're all writing English just fine, tells me something right now.

Why should my mind change? I don't have an obligation to change my mind.

Or maybe the inability to do his job properly results in more people out of work because he can neither understand what is being said, nor can make himself understood. He was hired to communicate with customers, Amor is a customer, so, by extension, is Sam's Deli. If people aren't being efficiently directed to Sam's Deli, he loses business. If he loses enough business, he lays people off - people who need their jobs just as much as he does, and probably do them better. (Oh, and just incidentally, Amor wasn't hired to understand him, he was hired to understand her and all the other customers he's dealing with - the onus is on him and his employer).

And the reasoning does follow, since you're criteria for employability seems to be directly related to need rather than abililty, then, by your logic, the married man needs more money than the single woman.

*nods*

And the reasoning does follow, since you're criteria for employability seems to be directly related to need rather than abililty, then, by your logic, the married man needs more money than the single woman.

This is seriously the biggest strawman I've ever seen constructed. Bigger than this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Lightmatter_burningman.jpg

And I thought it would be about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV6Yr4hZx8Y

:D

Well, yes, in a way, they are.

This "indirect" customer, or "in a way" customer concept is complete horseshit. Doing business with someone who does business with someone else doesn't make you a customer of that someone else. Otherwise, "in a way," the US Department of Defense is my customer. Which is horseshit.

Firstly, this isn't a solitary case. If you read the thread, you'll find that many people have had the same experience.

If you'll read the thread, you'll find many people have not too..

Secondly, it's not that I dont understand him. He - in this hypothetical situation - did not understand me, which is my complaint.

You only say he didn't understand you because you did not understand him.

Thirdly, if your job relies on your ability to communicate with the customer and you can't do that job, it IS a reason to be fired.

Your experience doesn't prove he "can't do the job." You can say it does, again and again, but repetition won't suddenly make this a non-laughable argument.

The style of your debating suggests that perhaps you do in fact walk around doing that.

Witty. What's next, a yo momma joke?

He doesn't deserve his job if he can't do his job. His family is irrelevant.

I disagree. Family and life are far more important than this job. You're acting like he's a policeman or a doctor where if he fucks up on the job, people die. No. Even if we assume you're right about everything, the most consequence is that people like you have something to complain about.

Boo-hoo. Your complaints are not more important than people's LIVES. Get some perspective.

Oh, puh-lease. How is my appearance or gender relative?

...to whether people agree with you?

Because people are persuaded and influenced by this kind of thing. And girls on predominately-male internet forums - as you should know - get massive bonus points simply because so many of their discussion partners are horny young teenage males.

Reality.

You're calling me racist

Oh I did? Where?

and you're being sexist.

I'm not, but I suppose you're going to ad-nauseam this one too.

Me. As racist.


Now, maybe my understanding of English is less perfect than your own, obviously flawless grasp of all language, but we're to refer to you as "a company" now? Shall we pretend you don't have a gender and are just an "it" or perhaps a collective "they?"

Then he should get a job he can get.

He did get a job he can get. What you mean is "Maybe he should be fired because he may have inconvenienced me."

Read the OP. It's Sydney, not Brisbane, and as I've said it's a hypothetical. But good on you for critisizing everyone else's ability to communicate

Odd. *I* am not judging everyone else's "ability to communicate" and then loftily handing down my sentence based on it.

You are.

And if it's hypothetical that just makes it all the worse - you're inventing shit, for the purpose of complaining about damn furreners, and making fun of their supposedly 'broken' English.

On what possible moral high ground could you stand?

, whilst standing up for a hypothetical person who can't communicate in the language that he is required to, while proving that you're incapable of reading comprehension.

Yes, that's it. Now *I* have "no ability to communicate" too, I suppose. Render my sentence from on high, O Lord.

And it's nothing to do with his family. If he wants to feed his family, he should get a different job.

Or maybe he can stay with the job he has because your angry little rant isn't an actual reason for anyone getting fired.

That being said, I believe it's the employers responsibility to train employees sufficiently. If he were properly trained, he would not have to be fired, because he would be able to do his job. I am in no way blaming the employee, but rather the employer.


Of course you're blaming him. You're blaming him, on the basis of this admittedly hypothetical and fictitious scenario you've invented, for not being able to do the job. Does "being able to do the job" mean that every single task you complete will be 100% perfect, in your idealized little fantasy world? Because it doesn't in reality. You are holding people to impossible standards based on isolated incidents which you extrapolate unreasonably to the whole.

And taking the opportunity to make fun of people's accents. Tee-hee.

FAIL.


No way, really?

:rolleyes:



Hmm, no.

Stunning rebuttals.



You clearly have never worked in customer service. "The customer is always right."

The customer is not the employer. I don't care how cute you want to try to be, the fact that you had a single bad hypothetical experience doesn't mean anyone needs to get fired, or that your input on whether he should be or not matters at all.

The employers don't have a high enough standard. They should be training them.



How do you know that's even the case? You're making wild, ubsubstantiated claims.

Your claims about his supposed "inability" have no credibility. The fact that you levy these claims against people who disagree with you - like me, earlier in this very post - further weakens their strength. Apparently just pissing you off is qualification enough for "no comprehension," regardless of reality.

So yes, I don't know that firing him will lead to child prostitution or that he even has a family.

But I do know that losing a job is a big and drastic thing, bigger and more drastic than your inconveniences. My point remains.

Why should my mind change? I don't have an obligation to change my mind.

True, you don't. You can just sit there and be wrong.

Similarly, you don't have an obligation to understand basic English either, so no worries that most of my reasoning went right over your head. ;)

This "indirect" customer, or "in a way" customer concept is complete horseshit. Doing business with someone who does business with someone else doesn't make you a customer of that someone else. Otherwise, "in a way," the US Department of Defense is my customer. Which is horseshit.

1. A company pays to have their number in the Yellow Pages, for example, as I previously states.
2. A consumer - i.e. Me, for example, calls the directory assistance line. They use the phone directory to put me through to the company.

How is this exactly a stretch of who is who's customer?

And, thirdly, your taxes pay for the US Department of Defense, and I'm of the opinion that the government's purpose is to serve the people, so... technically...



If you'll read the thread, you'll find many people have not too..

I have read the thread.



You only say he didn't understand you because you did not understand him.

What?

Okay, okay, so this guy being unable to understand the words "Sam's" and "Deli" equates to me not understanding?

Hmm...


Your experience doesn't prove he "can't do the job." You can say it does, again and again, but repetition won't suddenly make this a non-laughable argument.

He clearly couldn't do the job if he put me through to Sam D in Brisbane instead of Sam's Deli in Sydney because he couldn't understand the language. It's not subjective. He couldn't do the job. It's fact.


Witty. What's next, a yo momma joke?

No, I'll save the sexism and bullshit for you.

I disagree. Family and life are far more important than this job. You're acting like he's a policeman or a doctor where if he fucks up on the job, people die. No. Even if we assume you're right about everything, the most consequence is that people like you have something to complain about.


People like me? You don't know anything about me.

And, people don't deserve jobs just because they have a family to feed.

If he is employed, the employer should either a) check his English skills or b) give him adequate training. If an individual proves incapable of speaking the language he is required to, he should be a) retrained or alternatively b) fired.

Boo-hoo. Your complaints are not more important than people's LIVES. Get some perspective.

I'm not saying my complaint is more important than his life. I'm not quite sure where you pulled that one from, but I have a vague idea...



...to whether people agree with you?

Because people are persuaded and influenced by this kind of thing. And girls on predominately-male internet forums - as you should know - get massive bonus points simply because so many of their discussion partners are horny young teenage males.

Reality.

Uh, no.

My gender and my appearance only seem to be of importance to you, considering you're the only one who has mentioned it.


Oh I did? Where?

Did you forget your mention of xenohphia, sweetheart?



I'm not, but I suppose you're going to ad-nauseam this one too.

Ha!



Now, maybe my understanding of English is less perfect than your own, obviously flawless grasp of all language, but we're to refer to you as "a company" now? Shall we pretend you don't have a gender and are just an "it" or perhaps a collective "they?"

I don't have a flawless grasp of the English language. I never insinuated I did.

However, his use of the word company was correct, and you simply don't understand the context.



He did get a job he can get. What you mean is "Maybe he should be fired because he may have inconvenienced me."

He shouldn't have the job though. The employers either need to have higher standards or better training.



Odd. *I* am not judging everyone else's "ability to communicate" and then loftily handing down my sentence based on it.
You are.

Dementia, much?

And if it's hypothetical that just makes it all the worse - you're inventing shit, for the purpose of complaining about damn furreners, and making fun of their supposedly 'broken' English.

On what possible moral high ground could you stand?

Furreners?

I was NOT complaining about foreigners, and I was not making fun of people who speak broken English. You refuse to see the importance of speaking the language you're required to use daily for your job as a separate notion to nationality, race and ethnicity.


Of course you're blaming him. You're blaming him, on the basis of this admittedly hypothetical and fictitious scenario you've invented, for not being able to do the job. Does "being able to do the job" mean that every single task you complete will be 100% perfect, in your idealized little fantasy world? Because it doesn't in reality. You are holding people to impossible standards based on isolated incidents which you extrapolate unreasonably to the whole.

And taking the opportunity to make fun of people's accents. Tee-hee.

It's not that hard of a job. There's a big difference between Sam's Deli in Sydney and Sam D in Brisbane. If you can't differenciate between the two when your JOB IS TO DO SO, you can't do your job. I simply can't see why you can't understand that.



Stunning rebuttals.


Coming from the chauvanist who thinks people argee with me because I have bewbs.

The customer is not the employer. I don't care how cute you want to try to be, the fact that you had a single bad hypothetical experience doesn't mean anyone needs to get fired, or that your input on whether he should be or not matters at all.

Going around in circles without reading or addressing what I've said, I see.

Your claims about his supposed "inability" have no credibility. The fact that you levy these claims against people who disagree with you - like me, earlier in this very post - further weakens their strength. Apparently just pissing you off is qualification enough for "no comprehension," regardless of reality.

Reality? Coming from the delusional inividual who's going on about child prostitution?

So yes, I don't know that firing him will lead to child prostitution or that he even has a family.

But I do know that losing a job is a big and drastic thing, bigger and more drastic than your inconveniences. My point remains.

I keep saying repeatedly that he should be trained.

And, then, if he still can't do his job, he doesn't deserve it.

If a surgeon can't do surgery, he can't do his job.
If a cleaner can't clean, he can't do his job.
If a directory assistance person can't assist you correctly, he can't do his job.

A job is something someone has to work for. You don't automatically deserve employment.

True, you don't. You can just sit there and be wrong.

Similarly, you don't have an obligation to understand basic English either, so no worries that most of my reasoning went right over your head. ;)

You just love to contradict yourself, don't you?

1. A company pays to have their number in the Yellow Pages, for example, as I previously states.
2. A consumer - i.e. Me, for example, calls the directory assistance line. They use the phone directory to put me through to the company.

How is this exactly a stretch of who is who's customer?

And, thirdly, your taxes pay for the US Department of Defense, and I'm of the opinion that the government's purpose is to serve the people, so... technically...





I have read the thread.





What?

Okay, okay, so this guy being unable to understand the words "Sam's" and "Deli" equates to me not understanding?

Hmm...




He clearly couldn't do the job if he put me through to Sam D in Brisbane instead of Sam's Deli in Sydney because he couldn't understand the language. It's not subjective. He couldn't do the job. It's fact.




No, I'll save the sexism and bullshit for you.




People like me? You don't know anything about me.

And, people don't deserve jobs just because they have a family to feed.

If he is employed, the employer should either a) check his English skills or b) give him adequate training. If an individual proves incapable of speaking the language he is required to, he should be a) retrained or alternatively b) fired.



I'm not saying my complaint is more important than his life. I'm not quite sure where you pulled that one from, but I have a vague idea...





Uh, no.

My gender and my appearance only seem to be of importance to you, considering you're the only one who has mentioned it.




Did you forget your mention of xenohphia, sweetheart?





Ha!





I don't have a flawless grasp of the English language. I never insinuated I did.

However, his use of the word company was correct, and you simply don't understand the context.





He shouldn't have the job though. The employers either need to have higher standards or better training.





Dementia, much?



Furreners?

I was NOT complaining about foreigners, and I was not making fun of people who speak broken English. You refuse to see the importance of speaking the language you're required to use daily for your job as a separate notion to nationality, race and ethnicity.




It's not that hard of a job. There's a big difference between Sam's Deli in Sydney and Sam D in Brisbane. If you can't differenciate between the two when your JOB IS TO DO SO, you can't do your job. I simply can't see why you can't understand that.






Coming from the chauvanist who thinks people argee with me because I have bewbs.



Going around in circles without reading or addressing what I've said, I see.



Reality? Coming from the delusional inividual who's going on about child prostitution?



I keep saying repeatedly that he should be trained.

And, then, if he still can't do his job, he doesn't deserve it.

If a surgeon can't do surgery, he can't do his job.
If a cleaner can't clean, he can't do his job.
If a directory assistance person can't assist you correctly, he can't do his job.

A job is something someone has to work for. You don't automatically deserve employment.



You just love to contradict yourself, don't you?

Amor, I've concluded that arguing with Clomata is akin to beating one's head against a dense brick wall. The wall is too thick and full of itself to respond to facts and reason. It's obvious that his reasoning ability is limited by his reliance on his emotional reaction. It's possible that he may have been fired or threatened with firing because of a complaint from a customer about his competence and he's projecting his angst on you. Of course, this is merely supposition, but how else does one explain his extremely passionate and unreasonable defense of need as opposed to ability?

White, young girl* bashing is as good a discrimination as any.

Cheerio!

*Deduction and prone to personal prejudice. So sorry if I'm wrong.

I do not see the issue here. My knowledge of English is also not well enough to work in such an employment, but I am aware of my partially lacking skills and would know that I'd have to improve them for such a job. These people apparently see no need for this. There are job requirements and apparently some people are not able to formulate them well. This fish stinks from the head, so to say: inept managers make stupid decisions which in case of a company like this sure risk the reputation and future of the company.

Amor, I've concluded that arguing with Clomata is akin to beating one's head against a dense brick wall. The wall is too thick and full of itself to respond to facts and reason. It's obvious that his reasoning ability is limited by his reliance on his emotional reaction. It's possible that he may have been fired or threatened with firing because of a complaint from a customer about his competence and he's projecting his angst on you. Of course, this is merely supposition, but how else does one explain his extremely passionate and unreasonable defense of need as opposed to ability?

I think you're on to a possibility.

The other possibility being perhaps he's just a douche.

White, young girl* bashing is as good a discrimination as any.

Cheerio!

*Deduction and prone to personal prejudice. So sorry if I'm wrong.

I'm sorry, what?

I mean I think he's assuming you are a racist since you are, as far as I can tell - which may be wrong - a young white female. And I'm saying that what he's doing is discrimination as well - which does not say yours is and I think I've agreed with you back in this thread. Sorry if I was not clear; I'm still trying to wake up.

Cheerio!

Amor, I've concluded that arguing with Clomata is akin to beating one's head against a dense brick wall. The wall is too thick and full of itself to respond to facts and reason. It's obvious that his reasoning ability is limited by his reliance on his emotional reaction. It's possible that he may have been fired or threatened with firing because of a complaint from a customer about his competence and he's projecting his angst on you. Of course, this is merely supposition, but how else does one explain his extremely passionate and unreasonable defense of need as opposed to ability?

Wow, pyschoanalyze a bit more, Freud.

Maybe you're right, though. Maybe he's worked in customer service. Maybe he still does work in customer service. Maybe he's dealt with one too many self-righteous customers who feel that one mediocre experience with a customer service rep is an indictment of their overall ability to do their job. Maybe he's heard from one too many customers who feel that HE should be fired because of a problem on their end.

Here's the disconnect for me. The OP mentions that the rep was having problems understanding what she was saying, yet she admonishs him for not being able to "speak English." Presumably, she were not having any difficulty understanding what the rep was saying, so I fail to see how his English-speaking skills are in question here. Perhaps his English-listening skills need a brush up, but to go after his ability to speak seems to just play into the stereotype of the Indian phone rep for the sake of argument, and I think that's where the racism charge originated.

Also, to say that this rep is incapable and either needs more English language training or needs to be fired because he couldn't specifically understand the OP is so supremely arrogant I don't even know what to say. Odds are in the house's favor that she doesn't speak impeccable English, so to assume that because someone cannot understand her they're incompetent is absurd. These people likely take calls from all across the English-speaking world, and are likely versed in a multitude of accents. Yet, because she could not be understood, he is solely at fault. Are we to assume that it is the rep's job to understand everything every customer says, no matter how badly mangled their speech is? No, that's unreasonable.

We have no idea what this guy's customer service record is; he could be magnificent at his job. While, from the sounds of the original post, he could use a brush up on his customer service skills (and I say that as a manager of phone reps at a call center), he does not deserve termination simply because she had one bad experience. Though the more I re-read the original post, the less I'm convinced it's real and the more I believe it's a hypothetical created so the OP could get up on her soap box.

Where Clomata was going, in his very confrontational way, was that the OP needs some perspective on this experience. Just because she had a lousy encounter with the rep does not instantly make him incompetent, English-illiterate, or whatever else. And he does not deserve to be fired just because she had one bad experience. To think so is entirely self-absorbed. He has a body of work that his employers can use to make an accurate decision about his employment. To go off demanding that everyone be fired when you have a dissatisfying experience is unhinged.

The whole concept of "the customer is always right" died off in the 90s. Businesses are increasingly distancing themselves from unreasonable, demanding, needy, and abusive customers.

Wow, pyschoanalyze a bit more, Freud.

Maybe you're right, though. Maybe he's worked in customer service. Maybe he still does work in customer service. Maybe he's dealt with one too many self-righteous customers who feel that one mediocre experience with a customer service rep is an indictment of their overall ability to do their job. Maybe he's heard from one too many customers who feel that HE should be fired because of a problem on their end.



I fail to see any evidence he's had experience in customer service.

Here's the disconnect for me. The OP mentions that the rep was having problems understanding what she was saying, yet she admonishs him for not being able to "speak English." Presumably, she were not having any difficulty understanding what the rep was saying, so I fail to see how his English-speaking skills are in question here. Perhaps his English-listening skills need a brush up, but to go after his ability to speak seems to just play into the stereotype of the Indian phone rep for the sake of argument, and I think that's where the racism charge originated.

Saying that he can't speak English well enough in this - I repeat, hypothetical - situation, has no connection this individual's race.

Also, to say that this rep is incapable and either needs more English language training or needs to be fired because he couldn't specifically understand the OP is so supremely arrogant I don't even know what to say. Odds are in the house's favor that she doesn't speak impeccable English, so to assume that because someone cannot understand her they're incompetent is absurd. These people likely take calls from all across the English-speaking world, and are likely versed in a multitude of accents. Yet, because she could not be understood, he is solely at fault. Are we to assume that it is the rep's job to understand everything every customer says, no matter how badly mangled their speech is? No, that's unreasonable.

If your job is to understand an Australian accent speaking English, you are required to be able to do so.

And I highly doubt that my speech is "mangled".

We have no idea what this guy's customer service record is; he could be magnificent at his job. While, from the sounds of the original post, he could use a brush up on his customer service skills (and I say that as a manager of phone reps at a call center), he does not deserve termination simply because she had one bad experience. Though the more I re-read the original post, the less I'm convinced it's real and the more I believe it's a hypothetical created so the OP could get up on her soap box.

Perhaps if you read the thread, you actually would have realised that I said it was a hypothetical. However, many people I know, as well as some people who have replied to this thread have experienced similar situations. Also, if you read the thread, I said he should have better training.

Where Clomata was going, in his very confrontational way, was that the OP needs some perspective on this experience. Just because she had a lousy encounter with the rep does not instantly make him incompetent, English-illiterate, or whatever else. And he does not deserve to be fired just because she had one bad experience. To think so is entirely self-absorbed. He has a body of work that his employers can use to make an accurate decision about his employment. To go off demanding that everyone be fired when you have a dissatisfying experience is unhinged.

It's not one experience. If it were one experience, I wouldn't have bothered to write the thread. Just because you haven't experienced the same thing where you live or with the call centres you contact doesn't mean my claim isn't legitimate.

Also, I doubt his employers truly care about their quality of service they would provide better training and have higher standards of communication skills.

The whole concept of "the customer is always right" died off in the 90s. Businesses are increasingly distancing themselves from unreasonable, demanding, needy, and abusive customers.

I'm sensing you've had little to do with business.

I fail to see any evidence he's had experience in customer service.

Based on what? Him not explicitly stating he's had experience with customer service? There hasn't been any evidence either way, so stop jumping to conclusions.


Saying that he can't speak English well enough in this - I repeat, hypothetical - situation, has no connection this individual's race.

But in your hypothetical situation, you are the one who was unintelligible. Not him. His English-speaking skills are not being questioned, just his ability to understand it spoken to him, so why bring up his ability to speak the language when it has no relevance to your hypothetical situation? Note I'm not calling you racist here. I'm merely pointing out how the racism charge developed.

If your job is to understand an Australian accent speaking English, you are required to be able to do so.

And I highly doubt that my speech is "mangled".

No. Again you are being totally unreasonable. It is not the job of the customer service representative to understand every customer no matter how badly flawed their speech is. In your hypothetical situation, if he was having a hard time understanding you, he should have asked for you to clarify yourself, and explained he was having difficulty understanding you, but to require that the onus is completely on him for clear communication is ridiculous. And again, I wasn't saying your speech is mangled. It was a general hypothetical. This is a hypothetical situation still, right? Stop getting so defensive if we're not talking about you.

Perhaps if you read the thread, you actually would have realised that I said it was a hypothetical. However, many people I know, as well as some people who have replied to this thread have experienced similar situations. Also, if you read the thread, I said he should have better training.

See, when you make such arrogant and condescending statements such as this one, it's hard to take your criticisms of Clomata's style of posting seriously. I read the thread. Don't imply that I didn't just because I don't agree with you. That's sloppy debating.

It doesn't matter if other people have had similar experiences. To say "that rep didn't understand ME, he must need better English-language training" is arrogant. Why is he completely at fault? Communication is a two-way street. If you are having such a hard time with multiple customer service representatives misunderstanding you, perhaps you should look inward? The only consistent feature in all your dissatisfying relationships is you.


It's not one experience. If it were one experience, I wouldn't have bothered to write the thread. Just because you haven't experienced the same thing where you live or with the call centres you contact doesn't mean my claim isn't legitimate.

Also, I doubt his employers truly care about their quality of service they would provide better training and have higher standards of communication skills.

You assume that they have a problem with a majority of their customers. If they are only getting complaints from 1% of their business, why would they feel like they need to increase training? Those representatives may be exceptional, and you may be the outlier with the serious issues. Should they bend over backwards to satisfy a few unhappy customers when a vast majority think they do business perfectly fine?

Your claim that, because you were misunderstood, the representative must either need more training or be let go is completely, 100% illegitimate. There is nothing legitimate about saying that because you had a problem that someone ought to be fired. That's lunacy. I'm sure that customers have complained about your service in whatever you do. Should your boss have fired you after that very first complaint? Again, these customer service representatives have a body of work that they are judged on. Their bosses are not going to make snap decisions based on one angry customer. If a significant amount of that rep's customers make similar complaints, he will be let go.



I'm sensing you've had little to do with business.

Well, if we're going to play the whole condescending tone form of debate, then I'd have to say that perhaps you should re-read the thread where I stated that I am a manager at a customer-service call center, where I manage phone reps much like the hypothetical one you're complaining about. Customers like you abound. You demand heads roll every time you feel slighted.

So, frankly, what you sense is useless bullshit, and you should probably keep your senses to yourself, else you get made to look foolish again.

1. A company pays to have their number in the Yellow Pages, for example, as I previously states.
2. A consumer - i.e. Me, for example, calls the directory assistance line. They use the phone directory to put me through to the company.

How is this exactly a stretch of who is who's customer?

You want me to explain how doing business with X, who does business with Y, does not mean you are doing business with Y?

Are you literally saying that because you call the call center, you are a customer of every business that puts a number in the yellow pages?

If so I don't think you actually know what a customer is.

I have read the thread.


Good, so you know that simply indicating that people read the thread is not some sort of argument either way.

What?

Okay, okay, so this guy being unable to understand the words "Sam's" and "Deli" equates to me not understanding?

He understood fine. You didn't understand when he repeated it back to you. Hence, your lack of understanding.


He clearly couldn't do the job if he put me through to Sam D in Brisbane instead of Sam's Deli in Sydney because he couldn't understand the language. It's not subjective. He couldn't do the job. It's fact.

Right, right. Well I guess anything less than 100% 'customer service satisfaction' equates to HEADS MUST ROLL and INCOMPETENT AT THEIR JOBS in your la-la fairyland. In the real world, however, you're not in any position to judge whether a guy can do the job based on your single - AND FUCKING MADE-UP BULLSHIT BY THE WAY - experience.

If one experience with someone is enough to judge whether they "can do their job," why do companies bother with things like work reviews, or HRDs for that matter? Why doesn't everyone just use your amazing instant-judgment superpowers?

Because you don't have 'em. Sorry. That's fact.

No, I'll save the sexism and bullshit for you.


Aw thanks. I suppose you'll reserve your inept arguments and ad hominems for me too! I'm so special.

People like me? You don't know anything about me.

I know that you apparently think a single experience with a single - HYPOTHETICAL - call center worker is enough for you, to declare, as "fact" no less, whether he is or isn't capable of doing his job.

His job - and I know this is going to sound revolutionary - includes far more than just answering YOUR call. The world doesn't revolve around you, and neither does his job.

And, people don't deserve jobs just because they have a family to feed.

They don't deserve to get fired on the basis of your own whining.

Their family > your whining.

Their job > your whining

If he is employed, the employer should either a) check his English skills or b) give him adequate training.

And you of course believe - no, you would Declare As Objective Fact - that the employer has done neither thing.

If an individual proves incapable of speaking the language he is required to

No such proof has been made. Your assumptions don't amount to proof, no matter how often you repeat them or how many persons agree with you.


I'm not saying my complaint is more important than his life. I'm not quite sure where you pulled that one from

From what you said, and keep saying, and how you say it.

Uh, no.

My gender and my appearance only seem to be of importance to you, considering you're the only one who has mentioned it.

Oh, right. If someone doesn't explicitly state, "Gee, I'm biased because AP is a female," then nobody must actually be biased on that basis.

Great detective work!

Did you forget your mention of xenohphia, sweetheart?

I did indeed mention the word xenophobia. Ironic, isn't it, how you can't seem to communicate effectively by written English, and how many times you make dumb spelling mistakes when Firefox, at least, has a perfectly good spell-check mechanism, and yet you're SO quick to judge others based on their "lack of comprehension" or "inability to speak the language."

Ironic? Sorry, I meant hypocritical.

However, I never said "You are a xenophobe" or words to that effect, but feel free to keep basing your arguments on imaginary things. Seems to be a trend you began with the OP and are happy to continue forever.

I don't have a flawless grasp of the English language. I never insinuated I did.

So maybe it's you who ought to get fired or retrained. Does your job require you to speak, write or read English? If so then your own logic does you in. Until you realize that logic is flawed you really have no business being employed.

However, his use of the word company was correct, and you simply don't understand the context.

You're not a company, but - presumably - a person. He was referring to you specifically. So explain to me the context, if you can. I'm guessing all you can do is snort condescendingly and pat yourself on the back for me "not comprehending" your vast subtleties. It's easier than admitting you're wrong.

He shouldn't have the job though.

He should. And he does. Frankly, your continual whining has no relevance to either fact.


Dementia, much?


Your hypocrisy is not anyone's dementia, no. Quit trying to use silly ad hominems to dismiss legitimate arguments.

If you're going to use ad hominems, at least make them non-retarded. Make them at least somewhat entertaining and somewhat true.

I was NOT complaining about foreigners, and I was not making fun of people who speak broken English.

Oh, so someone else wrote the original post then?

You refuse to see the importance of speaking the language you're required to use daily for your job as a separate notion to nationality, race and ethnicity.

I refuse to see the importance of your whinings based on a fictitious example.

It's not that hard of a job. There's a big difference between Sam's Deli in Sydney and Sam D in Brisbane. If you can't differenciate between the two when your JOB IS TO DO SO, you can't do your job. I simply can't see why you can't understand that.

His job is not "differenciating" (ha!) those things. It's not answering your call either. It's quite a bit more than that, and you have to look at the 'more' to make a judgement like "you can't do your job."

I can't "understand" your point because it's stupid and lame. And by "understand" you mean "agree," because I understand all too well, and I simply disagree.

Coming from the chauvanist who thinks people argee with me because I have bewbs.

"chauvanist"

"argee"

Where did you learn English... at a call center?

And I *know* people agree with what they like instead of what they think. That's how people are. You want a lesson in psychology too?

Going around in circles without reading or addressing what I've said, I see.

I've read and addressed every one of your miserable little comments. You however tend to dismiss mine, like with your "Dementia, much?" dismissal just now. Can you BE just a little MORE hypocritical please.

Reality? Coming from the delusional inividual who's going on about child prostitution?

"inividual?"

I'm sorry, you obviously have no grasp of the English language.

And no, I'm not "delusional" any more than a "chauvanist" nor a "sexist" nor do I have "dementia." But hey, 0 out of 4 isn't too bad for someone like you who obviously needs more English language training.

If a surgeon can't do surgery, he can't do his job.
If a cleaner can't clean, he can't do his job.
If a directory assistance person can't assist you correctly, he can't do his job.

If a cleaner misses a spot on the rug one time, he can't do his job.

Bit more accurate an analogy for what you are actually describing. Run along now.

Amor, I've concluded that arguing with Clomata is akin to beating one's head against a dense brick wall. The wall is too thick and full of itself to respond to facts and reason. It's obvious that his reasoning ability is limited by his reliance on his emotional reaction. It's possible that he may have been fired or threatened with firing because of a complaint from a customer about his competence and he's projecting his angst on you. Of course, this is merely supposition, but how else does one explain his extremely passionate and unreasonable defense of need as opposed to ability?

If arguing with me is useless, it's because when confronted with my argument you resort to stupid, childish, condescending bullshit such as this. Instead of addressing what I actually say you go off on some lengthy, ad hominem fallacy in which you concede all argument in favor of feeling like you've somehow scored points or whatever.

I realize you have a need to wave your pom-poms to give poor AP some moral support, but you can leave your own nonsense pop-psychology "suppositions" where you found them, lodged somewhere in your rectal cavity.

kthxbai

For what I read in the OP, the guy who attended the call spoke enough english. Actually, he spoke the right amount of english needed, perhaps even more, to have that job. The only problem was that he didn't understand what Sam's Deli was. Actually, I would bet he understood that Sam's Deli was a person, and not a business. You didn't make the effort to clarify anything, Amor, or to help him to understand you.

I do have enough knowledge of english as to work in a call center. If I was forced to take that call, I would had thought, in the beginning, that Sam's Deli was a person. I would have checked it in the person's list, and I would have answered pretty much the same thing. "Nothing there, I only got a Sam D in Brisbane".

However, Amor, instead of politely trying to put the operator out of his mistake, you just pushed forward and forward, until now at the end you blame him, not for not understanding english, (I think he understood what it was necessary), but for not understanding you. Even a native english speaking operator could have been wrong for the same confusion.

You could have spelled the name for him, clarify that it was a store of sandwiches or whatever it was. Yet, you decided to just insist. I guess because perhaps you were unpatient for other reasons, or you were conflicted in the start because the operator answered in a broken english with heavy accent. Yet, I think he understood what you said, as far as language is concerned, and you understood pretty well what he spoke, so, in reality, he truly spoke english. If you don't like accents, that is another matter.

This thread boggles my mind.

I don't have any experience with call centres good or bad, but I can surely understand the OP's frustration.

Say I fly to America for vacation to a city I've never been to. I call a cab. I tell them that I need to get to the River Hotel at 6th St. and Main. Instead, he takes me to the River Hotel at 60th and Bane. When I try to tell him he's wrong, he tells me there is no hotel at 6th and Main, even though my online reservation clearly says 6th and Main. He then drives away and leaves me there. Am I the only one that sees a problem there?

As much as it sucks to work in the service industry, it's not exactly pleasant to be a consumer when the people who are supposed to be serving you don't give a rats ass, which is all too often.

I go to the grocery store and buy kale and endive. Both are regular items at the store, not seasonal. They are there every day. And yet every single time I have to wait for a dead eyed high schooler to scroll through the list of produce to find the picture that corrosponds with what they're holding, on their computer to actually ring up my items. Quite honestly, it's irritating when I -know- that the manager looks for memorization skills in their potential employees for preciecely this reason (I have applied for similar jobs in my youth).

Now, I don't complain about it because 1) it's really not worth any more of my time and bother and 2) Tired wage slaves who've been on their feet for 5 hours straight tend to give it to me for free when they don't know what the hell it is.

You know where else this irritates me? Electronics stores. I am not the most technical person in the world. Usually, I kidnap a computer savvy friend to come with me to buy my stuff, but this isn't always the case. When I pick up a component, and walk up to a customer service rep and ask "will this work with X?" and all I get is a blank stare and direct reading off the back of the box, I don't feel particularilly helped.

If you are unable or unwilling to perform your job to customer satisfaction then absolutely your continued position at said job should be questioned, either by your customers, or by your management who will never know of your incompinence unless through drastic reduction in sales or through customer complaints.

And, as for the supposed lack of hypothetical clarity in the OPs original statement, let's look at this situation:

Person A walks goes to a food stand and asks for an orange. The clerk hands Person A* a pumpkin. Person A says "No, I would like an orange." The clerk replies, "That is orange." At this point, person A gets a little irritated. "No, I want AN orange, not -something- orange." The clerk shrugs and says "No an orange here." and walks away.

Is this not cause for a serious check of the clerk's communication skills? If person A had said "No, an orange like a fruit." Would it make an incredible difference when it is reasonale expect to be handed an orange when asking for an orange? Supposing that person A did ask for "An orange, like a fruit." and was instead handed a peach. Or an apricot. Is this acceptable in -this- hypothectical situation?!

*Person A shall remain genderless so that the rabid horny male masses of the internet don't immediately jump to it's defence for the chance to possibly be shown some electronic cleavage.

I have never had a problem calling directory assistance in Australia. I choose to clarify things, such as "I'm calling for a restaurant named JoJo's in Brisbane CBD." for instance. I work in a call centre and the amount of racist Australian customers I get, who don't want providers with "foreign names", don't want to talk to people with accents and who treat the staff with accents very poorly, regardless of their ability to do the job and speak English disgusts me.

Many people are horrified that I don't know exactly where they live, when I ask what area of Sydney/Melbourne/South Australia they need a provider for, or whereabouts the hospital they are going to is located. They get very unreasonably angry, perhaps assuming that their location and mine must coincide. They make no attempt to clarify and are generally quite rude if I don't happen to know where they are. Does this make me or the customers incompetent or unreasonable I wonder?

You sound like the sort of person, Amor, based on your posts that most call centre representatives despise - rude, self-centred and arrogant.