NationStates Jolt Archive

Now on most issues I try to see the other side and not dismiss it right off the bat...this is true with evolution...but one thing I've always wondered is...
where did the matter that started everything come from?
thanks in advance for replies, and please try to keep it civil:p (fat chance ;))

No idea. Not that that has anything to do with evolution.

Not a question about evolution, but by everything do you mean, where is the matter that started life, or started the universe?

yeah its not really a question about evolution, but more about...well everything...so I would say the matter that started the universe

As have been said: Not a question about evolution.

yeah its not really a question about evolution, but more about...well everything...so I would say the matter that started the universe

I imagine that's something which is currently unanswerable. Plenty of religious thinkers and philosophers have discussed the question through the ages, so that's probably the best place to look.

There are, of course, scientific hypotheses about the origin of matter but they are more or less speculative barring a considerable advance in physics (and even then it only pushes the point of origin further back). I believe the LHC is supposed to provide a means to empirically test string theory, so that may be a good starting point at least for the explanations provided under that physical framework.

I think there is one thing we can agree on; it has nothing to do with evolution.

You might want to check the Hawking model of the universe. Under that model, space time is a static object and therefore matter just is. It is also a closed universe so that if you go back before the beginning of time you will be before the end of time.

Now on most issues I try to see the other side and not dismiss it right off the bat...this is true with evolution...but one thing I've always wondered is...
where did the matter that started everything come from?
thanks in advance for replies, and please try to keep it civil:p (fat chance ;))

The matter coalesced out of the energy of the Big Bang as a result of the intense pressure caused by all of that energy being packed in a fairly tiny space.

Edit: And yeah, fuckall to do with evolution.

I imagine that's something which is currently unanswerable. Plenty of religious thinkers and philosophers have discussed the question through the ages, so that's probably the best place to look.

There are, of course, scientific hypotheses about the origin of matter but they are more or less speculative barring a considerable advance in physics

The religious answers aren't speculative?

The matter coalesced out of the energy of the Big Bang as a result of the intense pressure caused by all of that energy being packed in a fairly tiny space.


Just for the sake of keeping this thread going, where do you think all that energy came from?

Short answer: Theories vary. Like with the rest of science.

One article I was reading recently in Scientific American postulated that spacetime (and therefore all matter) expanded out of a random quantum-level fluctuation. Sort of like a tiny bubble randomly forming in a pond -- sure, it's not likely that any particular bubble will form, but given a large enough pond at the right temperature for a long enough time, one can expect some bubble to form somewhere.

I'm terrible with cosmological metaphors, though -- I forget them about 5 minutes after they're explained -- so assume it was explained better in the article until I can find & post it.

And that's just one of a competing set of theories.

Just for the sake of keeping this thread going, where do you think all that energy came from?

Well, the jury's still out on string theory, but if we ever get experimental confirmation of it, brane theory is a good bet. Basically the collision of two branes resulted in the creation of our universe, and provided the energy that got it all started.

If it doesn't pan out, your guess is as good as mine.

Just for the sake of keeping this thread going, where do you think all that energy came from?

if string theory gets confirmed it would "play" all the answers of where the matter came from;)

Well, the jury's still out on string theory, but if we ever get experimental confirmation of it, brane theory is a good bet. Basically the collision of two branes resulted in the creation of our universe, and provided the energy that got it all started.


But even if that ends up being the case, you're still stuck with the question of where the 'brane's' came from. I guess my point is that the question of where everything came from is a fundamentally unanswerable question, it seems.

But even if that ends up being the case, you're still stuck with the question of where the 'brane's' came from. I guess my point is that the question of where everything came from is a fundamentally unanswerable question, it seems.

You're right, it is. Ultimately even if brane cosmology were to work out, we still wouldn't necessarily know where the big picture came from. Though at that point I don't know if the question even matters. At some point you have to just stop recursing and go "Ok, this is about as far as we can get into the matter."

The universe is constantly spinning which produces energy in the form of static and heat (which leads to 2 matter components being produced Stalicita and Hims) as the process inevitably accelerated the universe got heavier causing a big bang which fused the two components together to make everything ever

yes it is true! all the years I have been living a lie when in fact I am a world renowned Astrophysicist who become famous with my theories on dark matter storms

You're right, it is. Ultimately even if brane cosmology were to work out, we still wouldn't necessarily know where the big picture came from. Though at that point I don't know if the question even matters. At some point you have to just stop recursing and go "Ok, this is about as far as we can get into the matter."

But when I think about it in this perspective, it really pisses me off, since existence makes absolutely no sense.

But when I think about it in this perspective, it really pisses me off, since existence makes absolutely no sense.

No, I suppose it doesn't. But I don't know if it really needs to. The best science can ever hope to achieve is a best guess of how things work. Even with the most refined instruments 100% certainty is out of the realm of possibility simply by how science works. This isn't, mind you, a flaw in any way, simply the nature of the beast.

And I think we have to be content with that, with not knowing. There are a lot of other questions we'll never know the answer to for sure.

But when I think about it in this perspective, it really pisses me off, since existence makes absolutely no sense.

Would you mind elaborating? It seems like different people use the term "existence making sense" to mean very different things. Granted, enough of those things overlap that we end up funding expensive projects like the LHC, but I'm always curious to know what answer would satisfy someone's requirement of "making sense".

Would you mind elaborating?

I will when I come back, I have to go out now.

But even if that ends up being the case, you're still stuck with the question of where the 'brane's' came from. I guess my point is that the question of where everything came from is a fundamentally unanswerable question, it seems.

Fundamentally unanswerable? We live on Earth, we've explored some other planets through probes and what-not that don't do much except take some really good desktop pictures. So, right now, our understanding of the universe as a whole is extremely limited. By any estimation of the size of the universe, we've explored much, much less than .01% of it. -- Would you expect to fully understand anything having not studied 99% of it?

My take to this question - wait 1,000 years. Just a few hundred of years ago, we would've laughed at the ideas of cells or any type of microbiology. Who knows what will be discovered.

But even if that ends up being the case, you're still stuck with the question of where the 'brane's' came from. I guess my point is that the question of where everything came from is a fundamentally unanswerable question, it seems.

Logically, it doesn't have to come from anywhere. Causality is a property of time, and time is a proper of the universe or what-have-you. Without that, there's no time and thus no causality. Therefore, it could appear for no reason whatsoever.

Fundamentally unanswerable? We live on Earth, we've explored some other planets through probes and what-not that don't do much except take some really good desktop pictures. So, right now, our understanding of the universe as a whole is extremely limited. By any estimation of the size of the universe, we've explored much, much less than .01% of it. -- Would you expect to fully understand anything having not studied 99% of it?

My take to this question - wait 1,000 years. Just a few hundred of years ago, we would've laughed at the ideas of cells or any type of microbiology. Who knows what will be discovered.

I doubt that has anything to do with the issue. Eventually we're just going to have to settle on something that didn't require a cause, however long we wait.

Fundamentally unanswerable? We live on Earth, we've explored some other planets through probes and what-not that don't do much except take some really good desktop pictures. So, right now, our understanding of the universe as a whole is extremely limited. By any estimation of the size of the universe, we've explored much, much less than .01% of it. -- Would you expect to fully understand anything having not studied 99% of it?


That's not relevant, since it's not at all a type of question that the scientific method can be used to answer.

Logically, it doesn't have to come from anywhere. Causality is a property of time, and time is a proper of the universe or what-have-you. Without that, there's no time and thus no causality. Therefore, it could appear for no reason whatsoever.

It still sounds fundamentally illogical and nonsensical, I don't think it's something the human brain can even contemplate properly. Thus I believe the question 'why is there something rather than nothing?' will never be answered.

Step 1: Learn what evolution is.
Step 2: Understand what evolution is not.

The matter coalesced out of the energy of the Big Bang as a result of the intense pressure caused by all of that energy being packed in a fairly tiny space.

Where did that energy come from and how did it come to be packed into a fairly tiny space?

But when I think about it in this perspective, it really pisses me off, since existence makes absolutely no sense.

Welcome to Discordianisim Pope Hydesland.

That's not relevant, since it's not at all a type of question that the scientific method can be used to answer.

I'm sorry, what? What exactly does the scientific method have to do with my "we don't know much yet" comment? And why couldn't there be discoveries made in the, you know, 99.9999% of existence we haven't seen yet which solve, scientifically, this little issue of the beginning of the universe?

I believe the theory the OP is talking about is called abiogenesis.

the collision of two branesBraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanes! *Zombie attack*

I'm sorry, what? What exactly does the scientific method have to do with my "we don't know much yet" comment?

You seemed to indicate that the reason we know so little about the universe is because we have explored so little of it. Exploration of our perceptions of the physical universe is what the scientific method is used for.


And why couldn't there be discoveries made in the, you know, 99.9999% of existence we haven't seen yet which solves, scientifically, this little issue of the beginning of the universe?

Firstly, I fundamentally disagree with your number. The majority of phenomenon observed in the universe is explainable by science. Secondly, this is a meta-universal, cosmological question, not something we can perceive and find out through exploration, it's beyond empirical observation.

In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded.
-Douglass Adams

Now on most issues I try to see the other side and not dismiss it right off the bat...this is true with evolution...but one thing I've always wondered is...
where did the matter that started everything come from?
thanks in advance for replies, and please try to keep it civil:p (fat chance ;))

It was the remnants of the previous universe. God recycles. :)

This might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcTHBOjnUss

Well, the jury's still out on string theory, but if we ever get experimental confirmation of it, brane theory is a good bet. Basically the collision of two branes resulted in the creation of our universe, and provided the energy that got it all started.

If it doesn't pan out, your guess is as good as mine.

Zombie Physicist: "Braaaaaaaanes!!!" :)

Evolution is about proving who robbed the bank and how they did it, not where they got the gun and ski mask from.

There are no answers unless we can chase down to the origin of time itself. After all there are only cause in relation to time. Before which cause cannot exist, after which effects cannot take place.

At this point, there are those who believe that time itself is created during the big bang. This school of thought argues that, to use causation as a method of understanding timelessness doesn't work. So you really can't ask what "cause" big bang at this point.

I know there are M theory, but that is really just mathematics at this point and does little to reflect the real world.

I imagine that's something which is currently unanswerable. Plenty of religious thinkers and philosophers have discussed the question through the ages, so that's probably the best place to look.

Your advice where best to look are loons making up nonsense? Indeed, that is your "best" place to look, but that's unsurprising.

Now on most issues I try to see the other side and not dismiss it right off the bat...this is true with evolution...but one thing I've always wondered is...
where did the matter that started everything come from?
thanks in advance for replies, and please try to keep it civil:p (fat chance ;))

It came from my ass.