NationStates Jolt Archive

Why does Israel have the exclusive "right" to exist. I don't recall any other nation having said right, such as Palestine. So why is it that Israel is the only nation in the world that enjoys this right?

Why does Israel have the exclusive "right" to exist. I don't recall any other nation having said right, such as Palestine. So why is it that Israel is the only nation in the world that enjoys this right?

lol wut?

Partly because the West feels a collective sense of guilt for the persecution of Jews in many Western countries over past centuries. Not being committed to the existence of Israel has acquired in many places politically dangerous associations with anti-semitism and racism.

EDIT- Plus the fact that the main nation questioning the existence of Israel is Iran. Not the best bedfellows for the anti-Israel camp!

lol wut?

For example, Iran threatens Israel, everyone in the world says "Israel has a right to exist". What give Israel this exclusive right to exist as a nation, but doesn't carry over to other nations?

The short version is that immediately after World War 2, Europe was looking for a place to dump their excess jews. They settled on Palestine, much to the horror of the Palestinians and the other middle eastern nations who were coddled and consoled with hollow promises to limit immigration of jews to there until such a time as holding jews in detainment in Cyprus became too unfashionable and opened the floodgates, allowing the creation of a jewish nation in the center of a hostile middle-east.

Basically, the nation of Israel has the right to exist because Europe needed a place to send their surplus jews. It's the Liberia of Europe. *nod*

I do not even know if I "have the right to exist".

For example, Iran threatens Israel, everyone in the world says "Israel has a right to exist". What give Israel this exclusive right to exist as a nation, but doesn't carry over to other nations?

I don't remember anyone saying that Israel's right to exist is 'exclusive'.

any nation that can "make it stick" has the right to exist.

For example, Iran threatens Israel, everyone in the world says "Israel has a right to exist". What give Israel this exclusive right to exist as a nation, but doesn't carry over to other nations?

Israel's 'right to exist' is by no means exclusive. It should be obvious that the only time when people feel the need to stress a state's right to existence is when others deny it, no? If a sizable number of non-Japanese people called for the abolition of Japan I imagine its right to exist would be asserted as well.

Tune in next week for another addition of Brief answers to odd questions

any nation that can "make it stick" has the right to exist.

Yeah and Israel made it stick by in 48 when they beat everyone around them by themselves.

Why does Israel have the exclusive "right" to exist. I don't recall any other nation having said right, such as Palestine. So why is it that Israel is the only nation in the world that enjoys this right?

Christians make it so. No state of Israel, no fruition of the Book of Revelation, or something.

Christians make it so. No state of Israel, no fruition of the Book of Revelation, or something.

Most rational people, Christian or not, believe that Israel has a right to exist. HAD a right to exist, now that's another matter entirely.

now here's a difficult subject
actually from what i understand it is against the jewish principle to form a jewish nation. they were meant to be scattered across the world. real jews don't believe in a jewish state.
and what about the palestinians? a lot of people don't understand where they're coming from. really. i don't know enough about this subject to talk at length about it but i do know israel is backed by military powers and palestine has nobody really on their side. and i think it odd that a lot of them who are martyring themselves for palestine are deemed terrorists. when actually there should be a compromise/negotiations.

now here's a difficult subject
actually from what i understand it is against the jewish principle to form a jewish nation. they were meant to be scattered across the world. real jews don't believe in a jewish state.

that may be a problem for jews, i wouldnt know. im not a jew. it doesnt matter to me


and what about the palestinians? a lot of people don't understand where they're coming from. really. i don't know enough about this subject to talk at length about it but i do know israel is backed by military powers and palestine has nobody really on their side. and i think it odd that a lot of them who are martyring themselves for palestine are deemed terrorists. when actually there should be a compromise/negotiations.

whether or not there should be an independent palestine is a seperate issue from whether or not israel has a right to exist.

The Jews think that because in their religion they claim all none Jews are animals/whore what have you, so to them they are a superior peoples and therefore deserve better than everyone else.

I'm still not seeing any evidence that this "right to exist" is exclusive to Israel.

I'm also not seeing any evidence that Israel asserting a right to exist is evidence that Jews think they're better than other people -- bizarre bait-like claims notwithstanding.

Especially if the "right to exist" is not exclusive to Israel, it would seem them claiming it just shows they think they have the same rights as other people.

Which they do, right?

I'm still not seeing any evidence that this "right to exist" is exclusive to Israel.

I'm also not seeing any evidence that Israel asserting a right to exist is evidence that Jews think they're better than other people -- bizarre bait-like claims notwithstanding.

They say they are the "chosen people" that is the equivalent to the "master race" Germany used.

They say they are the "chosen people" that is the equivalent to the "master race" Germany used.
A) No.

B) Not the point.

A) No.

B) Not the point.

Yes, yes it is.

Chosen People - the superior people
Master Race - the superior people

Yes, yes it is.

Chosen People - the superior people
Master Race - the superior people

I would like to see conclusive evidence that states that Jews have, throughout history, consistently worked to set themselves up as rulers of the world or have advocated and implemented policies of genocide and eugenics to eliminate "lesser races" to achieve a goal of racial purity and dominance. The concept of the master race was just that, the master race. In their belief system, the Jews have been chosen by God to be part of a special covenant with him. That does not equate to the position of racial dominance espoused in the Herrenvolk concept.

And anyways, seriously, nobody has really advanced any concept of Jewish supremacy since the Middle Ages and even then they were in the extreme minority. If you're looking for someone closer to the Nazi concept of the master race, radical Islam is a far better bet...in fact, more than a few of their ideas have been shaped by Nazi politics during the era of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Yes, yes it is.

Chosen People - the superior people
Master Race - the superior people

No, no it isn't. It is not the point. Go back and read and see if you can figure out what the point is.

And to answer the OP, the "right to exist" is not an inherent right in any meaningful sense of the word. The only "right to exist" is that which is dictated by stronger powers...anyone can claim to be a state, but it takes someone strong enough to enforce that claim to give it any weight. That's the whole reason behind that debacle in Georgia, in fact, as well as any number of puppet states and client kingdoms dissolved when their patron's ability to enforce the new order collapsed.

Israel exists because we created it. By now, of course, it's more than strong enough to reduce its neighbors to plate-glass and settlement fodder, but for much of its history it was defended by the United States and its allies. The right to exist is, like it has been throughout history, built on bayonets and bullion.

For example, Iran threatens Israel, everyone in the world says "Israel has a right to exist". What give Israel this exclusive right to exist as a nation, but doesn't carry over to other nations?

lol cause no other nation in the world has been threatened time and time again with annihilation.

lol cause no other nation in the world has been threatened time and time again with annihilation.

You clearly haven't examined the English history books.

It's no wonder we were kicking ass and taking names in the 1600s. We'd been fighting off hordes of buggers intent on making us into lawn ornaments for centuries.

You clearly haven't examined the English history books.

It's no wonder we were kicking ass and taking names in the 1600s. We'd been fighting off hordes of buggers intent on making us into lawn ornaments for centuries.
:eek2: I guess that explains why you all look like gnomes and jockeys. :tongue:

lol cause no other nation in the world has been threatened time and time again with annihilation.
Uh...

Never seen an anti-USA protest? Or heard the rhetoric used during the Cold War by the US against the USSR, and vice versa? Or currently by Pakistan against India, or vice versa?

Or any other of the many, many times states have threatened one another?

No, no it isn't. It is not the point. Go back and read and see if you can figure out what the point is.

Oh I wasn't on about that being the point.

Oh I wasn't on about that being the point.
Well, I was.

See, in addition to being wrong, you're also not on point. So, even though people could spend days and days dogpile jumping on you for your first few posts herein, that would go off topic and, thus, be a waste of time.

Uh...

Never seen an anti-USA protest? Or heard the rhetoric used during the Cold War by the US against the USSR, and vice versa? Or currently by Pakistan against India, or vice versa?

Or any other of the many, many times states have threatened one another?

threaten yes, utter annihilation no. also Isreal has been in how many wars in its short history? and of those it was the aggressor in how many? Honestly I can't understand why isreal doesn't receive ore backing from the western world and actually I'm fairly anti-USA myself but that doesn't mean I want it wiped off the map (also I like most of the people from the us of a that I've met . . .maybe I'm more anti-bush than anything else). During the cold war and even the Pakistan India thing is more about threat of retribution should anything happen whereas Iran, for example, has repeatedly stated that Isreal should cease to exist. Also the fact that their leader is both a religious fanatic and a holocaust denier doesn't help. finally I'm pretty sure every nation assumes it has the right o exist. It's just that Isreal's is brought into question more often than any others.

:eek2: I guess that explains why you all look like gnomes and jockeys. :tongue:

Nah, that's what happens when you have a population stuck for several thousand years on one island, but who only discovered sea travel about 500 years ago... :D

You clearly haven't examined the English history books.

It's no wonder we were kicking ass and taking names in the 1600s. We'd been fighting off hordes of buggers intent on making us into lawn ornaments for centuries.

Uh, I think he's talking about being threatened with annihilation RECENTLY, not back during history.

now here's a difficult subject
actually from what i understand it is against the jewish principle to form a jewish nation. they were meant to be scattered across the world. real jews don't believe in a jewish state.

You just took a part truth and presented it as fact. Nowhere does it say that there can not be a Jewish nation. Indeed, a large part of the bible (Kings) is about the, you guessed it, Kings of Judea and Israel. What you are refering to is the Ultra-Orthodox interpretation that the only true state of Israel is that one that is brought about by the return of the messiah.

Nowhere does it say we are meant to be scattered around the world. The (second) Diaspora occured after the Bar Kochba rebellion, when the romans forced us out of our homes to prevent further rebellion. That is why we always say "next year in Israel."

Nice try though.


The Jews think that because in their religion they claim all none Jews are animals/whore what have you, so to them they are a superior peoples and therefore deserve better than everyone else.
They say they are the "chosen people" that is the equivalent to the "master race" Germany used.

No. First of all, nowhere does it say "all other peoples are animals and whores." I don't know where you got that from.

Secondly, the term "chosen people" refers to the fact that god has entrusted us to bear his word. We were chosen by god. That's it.

It has nothing to do with being superior.

Nah, that's what happens when you have a population stuck for several thousand years on one island, but who only discovered sea travel about 500 years ago... :D
HA-HA! :D

*is descended from Italians who sailed the world, and were themselves descended from Etruscans and all those other ancient Mediterranean types who went boating all over, and so points and laughs at island full of gnomes and jockeys who couldn't figure out how to float on water until relatively recently, historically speaking*

(EDIT: PS -- I think there was sea travel out of Britain longer ago than 500 years. ;))

They say they are the "chosen people" that is the equivalent to the "master race" Germany used.

wow anti-Semite much?

They say they are the "chosen people" that is the equivalent to the "master race" Germany used.
"They"?

Who's "they"?

"They"?

Who's "they"?

The Elders of Zion, duh.

"They"?

Who's "they"?
A bunch of giant, radioactive ants, right?
No, wait, that's Them. My mistake, sorry.

They don't. No state has an inherent right to exist. They exist if they state can protect itself and be recognised internationally. Israel has met those requirements thus far. If however something were to happen to upset this balance, than they forfeit the "right", if you like.

Israel has the right to exist because they have quite successful kicked the collective asses of anybody who tried to take that right away from them.
If you'd like to go over there and explain to them why that's wrong, feel free.

Because Israel is the promised land to the Jews, it is the law of God, because they are the race above all races and our God's chosen people they have the right handed down to them by God to exist.

What? I thought the only thing that give any country the right to exist is it's military power and it's allies. At least I am pretty sure if Israel is to lose their military power/allies right now, they won't exist for very long.

In a practical sense however Israel does serve as a western outpost to keep the middle east in check.

There's a lot of reasons which are meaningless individually but they add up collectively.

Guilt over the Holocaust, AIPAC having a deathgrip on Congress's balls, wanting to say Fuck You to Iran and Ahmedinejad, the Western belief that Aliens and Starship Troopers are both accurate documentaries on Islam and Muslims, so on and so forth.

nothing "EXclusive" about it. EVERY nation has the SAME "right" to exist, as every other. if any of them do at all.

i don't think it has a right to be a religeous state, any more then saudi arabia or bhutan, (although i find no other fault with bhutan other then its (a few years) recent expulsion of ex pat nepali's who had been living there). i don't see america as having a 'right' to become a 'christian' religeous state either (and the america i was born in damd sure didn't claim to be).

this century, and this millinea, the/'god's 'chosen people', are no longer, any one ethnicity, nor nation, but the mongral 'nation' of ALL people, everywhere on the face of this planet, whatever their idiologies, beliefs, economics, or any damd thing else.

Israel has as much as a right to exist as you do. Do you care about your right to exist? The Israelis feel the same way about themselves

I would have thought that no country has a right to exist, the only condition for existence is recognition by enough other countries. There are countries recognised by everybody (France example), those recognised by a majority (Israel - pretty everyone recognises it as a country), those only recognised by a minority of other countries (South Ossetia), and purely fictional countries that are only recognised in people's imaginations (Australia).

There's a lot of reasons which are meaningless individually but they add up collectively.

Guilt over the Holocaust, AIPAC having a deathgrip on Congress's balls, wanting to say Fuck You to Iran and Ahmedinejad, the Western belief that Aliens and Starship Troopers are both accurate documentaries on Islam and Muslims, so on and so forth.

Seconded. Though I think when it comes to AIPAC the US government as a whole doesn't so much have it's balls held in a death grip, rather they were castrated long ago.

Bah, we should have given them Uganda.

I would have thought that no country has a right to exist, the only condition for existence is recognition by enough other countries. There are countries recognised by everybody (France example), those recognised by a majority (Israel - pretty everyone recognises it as a country), those only recognised by a minority of other countries (South Ossetia), and purely fictional countries that are only recognised in people's imaginations (Australia).

yes, i think that's a good point too, about seriously questioning, more seriously then i had in my previous statement, the "right" of ANY country to exist.

i believe in the right of every individual awairness to exist, to not have the environment its existence depends upon devistated for the symbolic gain of a few at the expense of everyone.

NOT the "right" of imaginary constructs such as nations, or even economic intrests, to superceed that right, ever.

but again, as to a nation called israel, neither more nor less, then any other.

and the same goes for america, or the possibly once and future nations of hawaii and tibet, beliguered places and fortunate places alike.

wow anti-Semite much?

There's nothing anti Semitic about what I said, unless its anti Semitic to point out what they said.

Israel's right to exist is not exclusive.

And I'm not going to dignify Hachihyaku's statements with a response, unless he calls me out specifically.

Shalom, Setulan.

"They"?

Who's "they"?

Israel - Judasim.

Israel's right to exist is not exclusive.

And I'm not going to dignify Hachihyaku's statements with a response, unless he calls me out specifically.

Shalom, Setulan.

Whatever.

HA-HA! :D

*is descended from Italians who sailed the world, and were themselves descended from Etruscans and all those other ancient Mediterranean types who went boating all over, and so points and laughs at island full of gnomes and jockeys who couldn't figure out how to float on water until relatively recently, historically speaking*

(EDIT: PS -- I think there was sea travel out of Britain longer ago than 500 years. ;))

Well, yeah, probably. There was lots of sailing TO England. Usually to smash it up a bit or steal shit. It's entirely likely that some stuff floated the other way, too. :)

But our idea of "Hey, why don't WE go jump in boats, and smash stuff up, and steal shit" is a more recent innovation. :D

any nation that can "make it stick" has the right to exist.
And would therefore forfit this right if at any point it lost the ability to make it stick.

Which means people just need to continously attack Israel until it ends up losing. Yay!

As for the OP: people just like to point it out because Israel's existence is questioned more often than the existence of other countries. Part of the reason is that Israel is more obviously a political creation than those others, and as such it looks a lot more artificial to people who care about such things. So people like to state things to the effect of: "we're allowed to be here just as much as you guys", but in an effort to shorten it and thus reduce CO2 emissions, they leave out the second part.

In the end, the citizens of Israel have the right to live their lives the way they want to, just as everyone else on the planet does. As long as there is reasonable doubt as to their ability to do so under the government of one of their neighbours, it seems that Israel existing as a country is superior to the alternative.

This argument is bullshit. It is based on bullshit, and the only person really pushing it (who is not the OP) is pushing a bullshit argument.

Bottom line:

> Israel does NOT claim any rights as exclusive to itself. Period.

> No state has a right to exist because states/governments do not have rights. People do. Therefore, Israel's "right to exist" is really the Israeli people's right to maintain a sovereign nation as a political/economic functional entity in the form of their choosing. And they do NOT claim that right as exclusive to them and no other people in the world.

> I agree with those who say that Israel has a right to exist as long as it can defend that right -- in other words, as long as it can defend itself and beat down all attackers and threats. In this, it is exactly the same as every other state in the world, and most individual people, too. We have the rights we can defend. Without that ability, saying we have a right to this or that is mere philosophy and wishing.

> The only arguments so far against Israel's right to exist are either irrelevant or anti-Semitic.

>> Historically: Regardless of whether it was a good or bad idea to have created the state of Israel in the first place, what's done is done, and Israel is and has been an internationally recognized sovereign state which cannot be whisked out of existence as easily as it was whisked in. The surrounding states are just going to have to learn to suck it up and cope. So any arguments about how or why Israel was created are irrelevant to the issue of Israel's right to exist now that it does.

>> I think it is pretty clear that Hachihyaku has nothing to offer but anti-Semitic sniping. I get it. He/she isn't an enormous fan of Da Joos. Thank you, next. 'Bye.

This argument is bullshit. It is based on bullshit, and the only person really pushing it (who is not the OP) is pushing a bullshit argument.

Bottom line:

> Israel does NOT claim any rights as exclusive to itself. Period.

> No state has a right to exist because states/governments do not have rights. People do. Therefore, Israel's "right to exist" is really the Israeli people's right to maintain a sovereign nation as a political/economic functional entity in the form of their choosing. And they do NOT claim that right as exclusive to them and no other people in the world.

> I agree with those who say that Israel has a right to exist as long as it can defend that right -- in other words, as long as it can defend itself and beat down all attackers and threats. In this, it is exactly the same as every other state in the world, and most individual people, too. We have the rights we can defend. Without that ability, saying we have a right to this or that is mere philosophy and wishing.

> The only arguments so far against Israel's right to exist are either irrelevant or anti-Semitic.

>> Historically: Regardless of whether it was a good or bad idea to have created the state of Israel in the first place, what's done is done, and Israel is and has been an internationally recognized sovereign state which cannot be whisked out of existence as easily as it was whisked in. The surrounding states are just going to have to learn to suck it up and cope. So any arguments about how or why Israel was created are irrelevant to the issue of Israel's right to exist now that it does.

>> I think it is pretty clear that Hachihyaku has nothing to offer but anti-Semitic sniping. I get it. He/she isn't an enormous fan of Da Joos. Thank you, next. 'Bye.

QFT^
I like you. :fluffle:




Shalom, Setulan.

Shalom. :D

Israel - Judasim.
As ever, claiming a state consisting of over 7 million citizens, or a religious group consisting of around 14 million people, holds one position, is pure idiocy.

As ever, claiming a state consisting of over 7 million citizens, or a religious group consisting of around 14 million people, holds one position, is pure idiocy.

But whats the fun in being racist if you can't come up with the occasional conspiracy theory?

Why does Israel have the exclusive "right" to exist. I don't recall any other nation having said right, such as Palestine. So why is it that Israel is the only nation in the world that enjoys this right?
It's not. It enjoys the same right to exist as any other state.

everything I would say has been said...except this:
No country has the "right" to exist. period. Some countries do exist, some countries will exist, but NONE of them have the right to exist. They have the freedom to exist if they can kick the a** of anyone who gets in their way, but they don't have any right to exist.

hope that makes sense...

Why does Israel have the exclusive "right" to exist. I don't recall any other nation having said right, such as Palestine. So why is it that Israel is the only nation in the world that enjoys this right?

what nation of Palestine?

Israel has as much as a right to exist as you do.

Really? When did Israel become a sentient being instead of lines on a map?

Uh...

Never seen an anti-USA protest?
Yes, but I've never seen the extermination of Americans advocated.
Or heard the rhetoric used during the Cold War by the US against the USSR, and vice versa?
Didn't hear anything about exterminating Russians.
Or currently by Pakistan against India, or vice versa?
Or Indians. Or Pakistanis.

Yes, but I've never seen the extermination of Americans advocated.
"Death to the infidel", etc.?

Didn't hear anything about exterminating Russians.
Some fairly nasty talk about the elimination of the 'Reds' though.

Or Indians. Or Pakistanis.
You should read up on the (inane) statements made by successive Indian and Pakistani administrations.

There's nothing anti Semitic about what I said, unless its anti Semitic to point out what they said.

no you just compared the Jews with Nazi Germany on the basis of a statement you did not comprehend fully(understand this, I'm not jewish). Thats entirely anti-semetic especially when taken in light of your other posts here. Tone down your bigotry a little please.

Israel - Judasim.

the entirety of the Israel people says that. . . and now your generalizing too.

Methinks this thread is done by someone who donst want Israel to exist. but as for

Really? When did Israel become a sentient being instead of lines on a map?

Well Israel consists of people. People have a right to exist dont they? You would be included in that. If Israel merges with a surrounding neighbour (or is invaded) im sure the 0% Jewish populace of Palestinians will be met quickly enough.

Isreal has a right to exist because its population wants it to exist. Im sure your own country wants it to exist as well.

Well Israel consists of people.

People are sentient beings and have a right to exist, as well as many other rights. Things that are not sentient beings do not have rights.

I assume then you wouldnt mind if your nation was invaded tommorow?

I assume then you wouldnt mind if your nation was invaded tommorow?

If the invaders start killing people and/or blowing up property I'll have a problem as they're violating the rights of those people and the people who own the properties. I certainly don't give a shit just because someone crossed an imaginary line.

There's never been an invasion in history where the invaders didn't take various "liberties" with the conquered population. If somebody takes you over with the intent to annex your territory, get ready to see your country plundered and ruined and your people likely killed, enslaved, or treated like animals compared to the conqueror.

That is, of course, unless you guys screw up and the invaders are retaliating for your actions. That might not be as bad...might even get to keep most of your territory and property as long as they're nice.

There's never been an invasion in history where the invaders didn't take various "liberties" with the conquered population. If somebody takes you over with the intent to annex your territory, get ready to see your country plundered and ruined and your people likely killed, enslaved, or treated like animals compared to the conqueror.

That is, of course, unless you guys screw up and the invaders are retaliating for your actions. That might not be as bad...might even get to keep most of your territory and property as long as they're nice.

As I said, that I care about. It has to do with people, who actually have rights, and not the non-existent rights of lines on a map.

As I said, that I care about. It has to do with people, who actually have rights, and not the non-existent rights of lines on a map.

Those lines on the map are sometimes the only thing protecting people from tyranny and oppression. They are easily as important as the people that live within them, especially when the difference between two sides might be the difference between life and death.

For example, Iran threatens Israel, everyone in the world says "Israel has a right to exist". What give Israel this exclusive right to exist as a nation, but doesn't carry over to other nations?

I think it does carry over to other nations...

The Jews think that because in their religion they claim all none Jews are animals/whore what have you, so to them they are a superior peoples and therefore deserve better than everyone else.

And you say you're not racist. None of the Jews I've met have claimed none Jews are animals/whores. Whereabouts in Europe do you live? Nazi land?

And to the OP, people are saying Georgia has the right to exist atm, because of the whole Russia thing.

Whereabouts in Europe do you live? Nazi land?

Why woud he live in an amusement park?