NationStates Jolt Archive

So I am perusing some 'home grown' music from the UK, and I notice a grave error in the video. It happens at 3:42 for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lQztkXoMBA&feature=related

Is it really that hard to get the flag the right way up I ask?

So is it?

Poll coming.

-snip-
Flags don't matter.

Flags don't matter.
Rather, they don't matter to you. Some people can be quite offended if a flag is flown incorrectly.

In this case, I suspect the people who made that video didn't really care about whether they had the flag around the wrong way or not. A lot of people don't really know which way around the Union Flag out to be flown. Just another piece of general ignorance which permeates the UK.

Is it really that hard to get the flag the right way up I ask?
Yeah, it is.

It's a wee bit of white which you can easily miss.

Actually, it's not upside down, you're just seeing it from behind.

Rather, they don't matter to you. Some people can be quite offended if a flag is flown incorrectly.
Why should people be offended by a flag of any description? The sentiments portrayed by a strip of fabric are just those of any visual media. Would said people be so upset if I accidentally wrote "Greta Britain" in a complete list of countries?

Is it really that hard to get the flag the right way up I ask?Considering who's done the song, I'm not very surprised that they didn't put all that much care into displaying the Union Jack. In fact, it might even have been intentional.

Why should people be offended by a flag of any description? The sentiments portrayed by a strip of fabric are just those of any visual media. Would said people be so upset if I accidentally wrote "Greta Britain" in a complete list of countries?
Probably not, as it'd be put down to a typo.

There is a lot of protocol attached to the correct way of flying a flag, and it can be interpretted as a purposeful snub when done wrongly, especially at international or diplomatic events.

Considering who's done the song, I'm not very surprised that they didn't put all that much care into displaying the Union Jack. In fact, it might even have been intentional.

Indeed, any flying of the 'butchers Apron' by that section of opinion is normally done with the aid of petrol and matches.

Rather, they don't matter to you. Some people can be quite offended if a flag is flown incorrectly.

In this case, I suspect the people who made that video didn't really care about whether they had the flag around the wrong way or not. A lot of people don't really know which way around the Union Flag out to be flown. Just another piece of general ignorance which permeates the UK.

Yes some people do get quite offended by such stuff. Why, I have no idea, but it does happen.

Ah, another poll. However, how can you have a poll about flags without even mentioning burning them? Now that really pisses the average nationalist chav off.

Watching the offending clip, I wouldn't have noticed the heinous crime committed, which sums up my opinion of the matter. This thread seems all rather petty to me.

I didn't even watch the clip. Is it worth wasting a few minutes of my life, or should I just pick my nose instead?

They could be doing it deliberately to signal that they are in distress.

Flags don't matter.

Seconded.
People who obsess about things like that desperatly need a life.

Flags don't matter.

I beg to differ, while there is not necessarily any intrinsic value in a flag, beyond the value of the cloth, many people place a very high degree of significance on their country's flag, even if you don't. Their sentiments towards their flag are what matter, and what invests a flag with its perceived value and import. As always, I would advise that one should not merely dismiss national symbols out of hand because they don't mean anything to you: They do mean something to other people.

Without seeing the flagpole, I don't see a reason to assume it's upside down, rather than viewed from behind:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Union_flag.jpg/150px-Union_flag.jpg

Why think the "worst" of people?

well that is to be exspected from the lesser island folk:tongue:

I beg to differ, while there is not necessarily any intrinsic value in a flag, beyond the value of the cloth, many people place a very high degree of significance on their country's flag, even if you don't. Their sentiments towards their flag are what matter, and what invests a flag with its perceived value and import. As always, I would advise that one should not merely dismiss national symbols out of hand because they don't mean anything to you: They do mean something to other people.

Lots of people put a lot of value in all kinds of symbols, some of them reasonable or not. I personally cant spend large amounts of time caring about any particular symbol people think deserves value specially when it seems particularly silly personally

this reminded me of one thing from the 2006 or 2007 Eurovision.this was said by one of the finnish commentators:''that was 'Flying the Fag',sorry 'Flying the Flag '''

Lots of people put a lot of value in all kinds of symbols, some of them reasonable or not. I personally cant spend large amounts of time caring about any particular symbol people think deserves value specially when it seems particularly silly personally

What I'm saying is that Kamsaki was wrong when they said that flags don't matter. They clearly do matter, because many people think they matter. If you want to disregard them, fine and dandy, but you're not accurately describing the world when you do.

...They clearly do matter, because many people think they matter....

By the same logic they clearly don't matter, because many people don't think they matter. See it works both ways

What I'm saying is that Kamsaki was wrong when they said that flags don't matter. They clearly do matter, because many people think they matter. If you want to disregard them, fine and dandy, but you're not accurately describing the world when you do.

Heh while I get what you are saying, I'm sideing with Kamsaki on this one.

We can all give any thing subjective importance, but really when it comes to flags, objectivly and reasonably they mean nothing.

What I'm saying is that Kamsaki was wrong when they said that flags don't matter. They clearly do matter, because many people think they matter. If you want to disregard them, fine and dandy, but you're not accurately describing the world when you do.
Well if we are going to play the technicality's game as in your first post the flag as stated has almost 0 value (cost of cloth) peoples irrational personal value does.

Thats not the flag thats value of a belief, the two are not the same

As such I think the statement is close to right (with the exception of value of the cloth of course)

Never assume malice when incompetence suffices!

So I am perusing some 'home grown' music from the UK, and I notice a grave error in the video. It happens at 3:42 for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lQztkXoMBA&feature=related

Is it really that hard to get the flag the right way up I ask?

So is it?

Poll coming.

Right. Arrest them for treason, put them in the stocks, execute them and then put their heads on pikes on Tower Bridge. Or, maybe, just get over it, as its a matter of less than zero importance. Seriously, If this makes you annoyed enough to make a thread on NSG, what must all the real problems of the world inspire you to do? Heck, crime must make you so annoyed that you'd relentlessly train all day and dress up in some sort of ludicrous costume disguise to fight it. I'm on to you, Batman.

Does that make you the Penguin, Dumb Ideologies?

Does that make you the Penguin, Dumb Ideologies?

I'm far more evil than that fool, dear. Thats class C evil, I'm class friggin' A. RAAAAH! Yes, damn right you should be scared:p

We can all give any thing subjective importance, but really when it comes to flags, objectivly and reasonably they mean nothing.

But then so does almost everything (if not everything) in the universe.

/pedantic philosophy

Heh while I get what you are saying, I'm sideing with Kamsaki on this one.

We can all give any thing subjective importance, but really when it comes to flags, objectivly and reasonably they mean nothing.

That's the rub, though. Value and meaning are largely subjective, and the flag as a symbol is widely regarded as having a high symbolic value. After all, why do some people feel that swelling pride when they see their country's flag waving, while for others, burning a flag is a potent form of protest.

I'd say that, even if you or I don't ascribe innate value to flags, we have to recognize that they are potent symbols for many people.

Seriously, If this makes you annoyed enough to make a thread on NSG, what must all the real problems of the world inspire you to do? Heck, crime must make you so annoyed that you'd relentlessly train all day and dress up in some sort of ludicrous costume disguise to fight it. I'm on to you, Batman.

But that's precisely the problem, isn't it? People get upset about trivialities and ignore real issues. When I overhear people in the pub shouting and carrying on about something, what's the fuss about? Is it about Ugandan rebels killing and eating people, or Iraq, or Third World famine? No, it's about a dodgy offside decision.

That's the rub, though. Value and meaning are largely subjective, and the flag as a symbol is widely regarded as having a high symbolic value. After all, why do some people feel that swelling pride when they see their country's flag waving, while for others, burning a flag is a potent form of protest.

I'd say that, even if you or I don't ascribe innate value to flags, we have to recognize that they are potent symbols for many people.

Indeed, you could just as easily argue that the cross is meaningless and subjective, but does that make it ok to piss all over it in public?

Indeed, you could just as easily argue that the cross is meaningless and subjective, but does that make it ok to piss all over it in public?

Absolutely. Maybe apart from considerations of hygiene, that is.

Absolutely. Maybe apart from considerations of hygiene, that is.

So offending huge amounts of people is not problematic. I hope you don't mind me attending my local black minority meeting and shouting ****** at the top of my voice then.

edit: weird, didn't realise OMAC censor that. Anyway the word was ni...gg..er.

So offending huge amounts of people is not problematic.

Okay /= unproblematic. But yes, I believe that in a non-totalitarian environment offending people is okay.

I hope you don't mind me attending my local black minority meeting and shouting ****** at the top of my voice then.

I believe there's a difference between "offending people" by offending/challenging/disparaging their beliefs/feelings, and by offending/disparaging the people and their unchangeable, inherent traits. In other words, I believe there's a difference between going to a gathing of your local Flag Admirers and yell "Flags are a piece of crock", and yelling n.igger at a balck assembly. But yes, in general, I think it's okay for you to do that - I 'mind', as in, I believe you're very stupid for doing it, but I think it's okay.


(Also, there's a difference between doing something in general public / on YouTube, and doing it in a specific assembly ofthe 'cause' in question)

perhaps the Irish would put more effort making sure they flew your flag correctly if you would be so kind as to take Saint Patrick's cross out of your flag.

perhaps the Irish would put more effort making sure they flew your flag correctly if you would be so kind as to take Saint Patrick's cross out of your flag.In which it wouldn't be possible to get it upside down, anyway.

perhaps the Irish would put more effort making sure they flew your flag correctly if you would be so kind as to take Saint Patrick's cross out of your flag.

Well since the British invented the St Patrick's cross in the first place, I'd be surprised if they'd object to it. I mean "St Patrick's cross" - he wasn't a martyr and certainly wasn't martyred on a saltire cross, so why would he have it as his badge?

They clearly do matter, because many people think they matter.
The implication, however, is that their importance is entirely arbitrarily asserted. That is, they don't really matter - we just pretend they do, and it is this pretense that matters.

Flying the Union Flag upside down is a signal of distress.

Flying the Union Flag upside down is a signal of distress.And if it also has brown stains, it's a signal of gastrointestinal distress.

Flying the Union Flag upside down is a signal of distress.
Not the most obvious signal. I don't think lessons learned from The Last Castle are necessarily transferable to UK vexillography. :)

Not the most obvious signal. I don't think lessons learned from The Last Castle are necessarily transferable to UK vexillography. :)

Trick was, only other British Naval vessels would understand the signal.

Trick was, only other British Naval vessels would understand the signal.

That does sound more plausible, but all you'd need is a bit of breeze and a bit of distance, and you couldn't tell what was what. It's similar to why the RAF uses roundels, because you couldn't distinguish the union flag from the german cross at a distance.

Trick was, only other British Naval vessels would understand the signal.

You'd think a big banner saying "HELP HELP MY SHIP IS SINKING" would be more useful. Maybe they thought it was bad luck to carry such a flag on board.

Sinking isn't the only form of distress.

Engine failure, officer taken ill. Stuff like that that you wouldn't want your enemy to find out about.

That does sound more plausible, but all you'd need is a bit of breeze and a bit of distance, and you couldn't tell what was what. It's similar to why the RAF uses roundels, because you couldn't distinguish the union flag from the german cross at a distance.

You do make a good point.

But, the sort of emergency that signal was used for, as stated above. The recipient would probably be rather close.

German Navel flag had a red background right? compared to the blue of the Union Flag/Jack (it's only the Jack on ship) or the white backgrounds of the cross of St George, confusion shouldn't be a problem.

You do make a good point.

But, the sort of emergency that signal was used for, as stated above. The recipient would probably be rather close.

German Navel flag had a red background right? compared to the blue of the Union Flag/Jack (it's only the Jack on ship) or the white backgrounds of the cross of St George, confusion shouldn't be a problem.
I wasn't trying to draw a comparison with the German Naval ensigns, just that in WW1 people were having trouble telling the difference between two quite different shapes on not massively fast moving biplanes.

i can see that there is a case for the era of smoothbore equipped sail ships, when you're approaching a nominally british ship, you might want to know if you've "caught a tartar" before you sail into broadside range, but i can''t imagine that the opportunity for British crews to show their situation would crop up too frequently, or that the foreign prize crews would be ignorant of which way up to fly a Union jack.

I wasn't trying to draw a comparison with the German Naval ensigns, just that in WW1 people were having trouble telling the difference between two quite different shapes on not massively fast moving biplanes.

i can see that there is a case for the era of smoothbore equipped sail ships, when you're approaching a nominally british ship, you might want to know if you've "caught a tartar" before you sail into broadside range, but i can''t imagine that the opportunity for British crews to show their situation would crop up too frequently, or that the foreign prize crews would be ignorant of which way up to fly a Union jack.Not to forget British crews often disguised themselves as civilian craft to trick submarines that followed the rules of war.

So I am perusing some 'home grown' music from the UK, and I notice a grave error in the video. It happens at 3:42 for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lQztkXoMBA&feature=related

Is it really that hard to get the flag the right way up I ask?

So is it?

Poll coming.

right way? you mean upside down as a message of distress?

(precisely WHO's "the" flag, are we talking about here anyway? this IS the INTERnet, that does NOT rightfully belong to ANY ONE nation!)

=^^=
.../\...

Not to forget British crews often disguised themselves as civilian craft to trick submarines that followed the rules of war.

Are you implying that the use of Q-Ships was not following the rules of war?

Absolutely. Maybe apart from considerations of hygiene, that is.

Urine is actually pretty antiseptic, despite its smell.

How do you know the flag wasn't the right way up?

The person with the camera might have been upside down. No harm done in that case. Especially in such a charming video.

If the british don't like confusion over the flag, they need to make it less symmetrical. I recommend ditching one of the diagonal spokes (both the red and the white) -- then it'll be easy to tell that the large blue area goes by the flagpole mon top (or whichever corresponds to the spoke you remove).

I would've thought there were larger issues in that video than the flag. I do have a mate though who, if he see's the union flag upside down he hunts down the person responsable, usualy the shop manager, and asks them to put it the right way up.

Considering who's done the song, I'm not very surprised that they didn't put all that much care into displaying the Union Jack. In fact, it might even have been intentional.Hmm, yes, I wasn't really watching the clip. I was waiting for it to load and lyrics gradually drummed theirselves into my brain. My first thought was "Surely there are (were) more compelling reasons to lambaste the IRA than their inability to fly the Union Jack correct," my second thought was "that such a stereotypically British attitude". Something along the lines of correcting the suicidal exclamation of "I wish I was dead" with the reply "No, no, no, no! It's 'I wish I were dead'. Life is fleeting, but good grammar is forever".

Well since the British invented the St Patrick's cross in the first place, I'd be surprised if they'd object to it. I mean "St Patrick's cross" - he wasn't a martyr and certainly wasn't martyred on a saltire cross, so why would he have it as his badge?

Wrong the British didn't invent it. historically it was used in the Dublin trinity college and as the part of the emblem on the city of Cork (along with other areas) dating back to the year 1000.

Also it is objectionable to the Irish because it symbolizes Ireland is still part of the UK. which it is not.

Wrong the British didn't invent it. historically it was used in the Dublin trinity college and as the part of the emblem on the city of Cork (along with other areas) dating back to the year 1000.

Also it is objectionable to the Irish because it symbolizes Ireland is still part of the UK. which it is not. Some of it is, if we ever leave Ireland then I'm sure the cross will be taken out.

I beg to differ, while there is not necessarily any intrinsic value in a flag, beyond the value of the cloth, many people place a very high degree of significance on their country's flag, even if you don't. Their sentiments towards their flag are what matter, and what invests a flag with its perceived value and import.

No, they really don't.

Indeed, you could just as easily argue that the cross is meaningless and subjective, but does that make it ok to piss all over it in public?

Two factors: Is it YOUR cross? If it's not yours then you have no right to piss on it, if it's yours you can do with it as you wish. Secondly, you would still run afoul of laws against public urination.

No, they really don't.

Actually they do.

See. I can play that game too. Isn't that easy?

You know, those little google ads that pop up in the upper right hand corner of the browser are actually sometimes amusing.

Hmm, yes, I wasn't really watching the clip. I was waiting for it to load and lyrics gradually drummed theirselves into my brain. My first thought was "Surely there are (were) more compelling reasons to lambaste the IRA than their inability to fly the Union Jack correct," my second thought was "that such a stereotypically British attitude". Something along the lines of correcting the suicidal exclamation of "I wish I was dead" with the reply "No, no, no, no! It's 'I wish I were dead'. Life is fleeting, but good grammar is forever".

Exactly. And it's not even that complicated. The flag is thus:

Blazoned Azure, the Crosses Saltire of St Andrew and St Patrick, quarterly per saltire, counterchanged Argent and Gules, the latter fimbriated of the second, surmounted by the Cross of St George of the third, fimbriated as the saltire.

I really don't see the problem.

Not to forget British crews often disguised themselves as civilian craft to trick submarines that followed the rules of war.

So? The Germans didn't follow the rules of war either

http://ca.geocities.com/thomashemy@rogers.com/images/lusitaniamultiple1.jpg

If the british don't like confusion over the flag, they need to make it less symmetrical. I recommend ditching one of the diagonal spokes (both the red and the white) -- then it'll be easy to tell that the large blue area goes by the flagpole mon top (or whichever corresponds to the spoke you remove).

I have a better idea:


http://www.freewebs.com/vault_10/NewUKflag.png