NationStates Jolt Archive

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

-thefreedictionary.com

So, do you love your country? If so, what do you love about your country? Do you love your current government? Or maybe, do you love what your government has accomplished in the past, like establishing democracy or something? Do you like your lifestyle and the society where you live? Do you like the laws that you have and the people who enforce them? Does having a millitary to defend the land where you live really tickle your chin? Or maybe your like me and you like to see maps with imaginary lines drawn all over them?

Is nationalism good or bad? I welcome you views.

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

-thefreedictionary.com

So, do you love your country? If so, what do you love about your country? Do you love your current government? Or maybe, do you love what your government has accomplished in the past, like establishing democracy or something? Do you like your lifestyle and the society where you live? Do you like the laws that you have and the people who enforce them? Does having a millitary to defend the land where you live really tickle your chin? Or maybe your like me and you like to see maps with imaginary lines drawn all over them?

Is nationalism good or bad? I welcome you views.

Not really. I seem to recall being taught (at school) to be embarrassed about England rather than proud.

Yes, I love my country. I would defend it at risk to my life.

I dont love patches of dirt.

I'm a firm nationalist. I believe that the United States should work to maintain its position as the dominant economic, military, and cultural superpower and that the world benefits more from the leadership of a responsible, rational United States than any other nation on Earth. We've got a lot going for us and I'd like nothing more to see our nation strong and respected, capable of doing whatever is necessary, and only what is necessary, to ensure our way of life remains secure.

I'm a firm nationalist. I believe that the United States should work to maintain its position as the dominant economic, military, and cultural superpower and that the world benefits more from the leadership of a responsible, rational United States than any other nation on Earth. We've got a lot going for us and I'd like nothing more to see our nation strong and respected, capable of doing whatever is necessary, and only what is necessary, to ensure our way of life remains secure.

I agree with this, America's sphere of influence has probably done more good than harm. In terms of promoting business, free trade and fair laws. Same goes for the EU. Maybe not Russia or China though.

Of course, what would there be without any countries competing for influence? Anarchy? or a more peaceful united world?

I dont love patches of dirt.

So is that the only thing a country is? Dirt?

Sort of reminds me of what Crocodile Dundee said:

See those rocks? Been standing there for 600 million years. Still be there when you and I are gone. So arguing over who owns them is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on.

So is that the only thing a country is? Dirt?




That is essentially what the state is. A body that rules over a plot of dirt.

Yes, I love my country. I would defend it at risk to my life.

Well not me, I definitely love myself a lot more than my country.

That is essentially what the state is. A body that rules over a plot of dirt.

Wait, how does the sate rule? Is it a democracy? Does it have a big millitary? Does it let other people do business on its dirt? I would argue that there is a lot more to a nation state than the land it occupies.

I don't believe in "the nation" as a useful unit of analysis.

I agree with this, America's sphere of influence has probably done more good than harm. In terms of promoting business, free trade and fair laws. Same goes for the EU. Maybe not Russia or China though.

Of course, what would there be without any countries competing for influence? Anarchy? or a more peaceful united world?

I imagine it would just be scattered bands fighting against each other and attempting to gain dominion over their fellows like it was prior to the development of the first organized political entities. The one thing that's certain is that mankind has never lived in peace and has never united in its entire history. Ultimately, I think a truly peaceful and free world is only possible through global political unity, and political unity won't be desirable or achievable until there's sufficient offworld (or underseas, or underground) colonization to ensure that a single totalitarian government can't control all of it.

That's not to say it isn't possible, since the vast majority of people today for the first time in history live in some form of a stable peace with one another, but it's not something with historical precedent.

Nationalism is nothing more than saying, "I've got nothing else."

There is nothing wrong to be proud and happy of a community that you are apart of.

Some people don't understand how you can be proud and happy to be a member of a community and why people will defend themselves and their community but that's fine as well but since I had this argument not that long ago I don't really care to do it again.

I'm fairly proud of Canada. It certainly is nothing special but who doesn't love a country that runs of beer and maple syrup!

I'm a fan of nationalism, as it is sort of like tribalism on a larger scale. I'd prefer tribes, but since nation-states are what make the world go round, nationalism ftw!

nothing wrong with pride in where your from. just don't let it blind you.

Overall I am quite proud of my country, it's culture and it's history, but I'm in no way blind to it's faults or mistakes.

I'm of the opinion there is nothing wrong with being proud or liking your country, because a country is about so much more than just geographical location. It's about a shared history, culture and society, and as it's citizens we are all a part of this. However, it's vitally important to not let pride blind yourself to it's faults or to the fact that others may do certain things better. A country is a work in progress and always will be, and the only way to avoid stagnating is to learn from mistakes of the past and from what has happened in other countries and improve of what you already have.

Just because you are proud of something doesn't mean it's perfect, or even the best. Nor does it mean you should always put your nations aims above those of the world or humanity as a whole.

I love the UK and I firmly believe it is the greatest country on this planet. I realise that such an opinion died out on a popular scale with World War One, but fuck it. I'm contemplating joining the Royal Air Force Reserves so I had better like this place :p

No apostrophe in its.

Nations are unnecessary, but I'm happy for them to exist as long as people don't pretend they have some divine purpose.

So, do you love your country?
For reference, I have two countries: the one I was born in is Germany, the one I currently live in is Australia.

And the answer is "no".

Do you love your current government?
No.

Or maybe, do you love what your government has accomplished in the past, like establishing democracy or something?
The government of the Federal Republic certainly achieved something by creating a lasting democracy in post-war Germany, and I quite enjoyed the result of that. But I don't think "love" is the word I'd use.

Australia's government has probably faced fewer challenges of that scale, and ones it did face (such as Aboriginal rights) it didn't handle very well. That's not to say it didn't implement some pretty good policies, but those are more micro than macro.

Do you like your lifestyle and the society where you live?
I can't complain. But then, I'd be kinda silly if I did, since I choose my own lifestyle and the people I associate with.

Do you like the laws that you have and the people who enforce them?
Some of them yes, many of them no. Obviously there are good laws, like "don't murder other people". And then there are bad laws, like "if your tires make any noise, that's 'hooning' and we're going to impound and auction off your car".

The enforcers I meet are more concerned with the latter than the former, hence my opinion of them is very, very low.

Does having a millitary to defend the land where you live really tickle your chin?
No. I don't mind having a military to defend people and their rights in general, but that must necessarily include people in other countries as well, and that usually creates more trouble than it is ultimately worth.

Or maybe your like me and you like to see maps with imaginary lines drawn all over them?
Pretty much.

Having two nationalities, I view the devotion to a single country as something silly.

Meh! *shrug*

I can think of worse places to live I guess but love would be rather embarrassing to use for not only me but also other British

ultimately the UK is like that super nice uncle you don't want near children

I'm contemplating joining the Royal Air Force Reserves so I had better like this place :p

so don't like Britain enough to put any real effort into it :p

(try to get on the supply side of things so you can do combat tours in Iraq/Afghan on weekends for super pay)

I'm a firm nationalist. I believe that the United States should work to maintain its position as the dominant economic, military, and cultural superpower and that the world benefits more from the leadership of a responsible, rational United States than any other nation on Earth. We've got a lot going for us and I'd like nothing more to see our nation strong and respected, capable of doing whatever is necessary, and only what is necessary, to ensure our way of life remains secure.

Try as I might, I find it impossible to place the words "US politics" and "rational" and "reasonable" in one sentence without including a negation...

I'm a firm nationalist. I believe that the United States should work to maintain its position as the dominant economic, military, and cultural superpower and that the world benefits more from the leadership of a responsible, rational United States than any other nation on Earth. We've got a lot going for us and I'd like nothing more to see our nation strong and respected, capable of doing whatever is necessary, and only what is necessary, to ensure our way of life remains secure.

You are not just a nationalist. You go further. You are an imperialist, or an expansionist. You want to impose your way of life upon others based on a supposed "Global Leadership", who is "responsible and rational" according to your one way, subjective posture. You speak of "dominance", and "superpower".

Nationalism, like everything else. should be done with moderation. *nod*

Nationalism, like everything else. should be done with moderation. *nod*

We should have Kat telling us no flaming?

You are not just a nationalist. You go further. You are an imperialist, or an expansionist. You want to impose your way of life upon others based on a supposed "Global Leadership", who is "responsible and rational" according to your one way, subjective posture. You speak of "dominance", and "superpower".

you are incorrect. Now be quite and eat your McDonald's or you will get the bombs again.

We should have Kat telling us no flaming?

It's better than getting tear gassed. *nod*

So, do you love your country?

It's a piece of shit in many ways, but I love it.


If so, what do you love about your country?

Hard to put into words really.


Do you love your current government?

No.


Or maybe, do you love what your government has accomplished in the past, like establishing democracy or something?

Some things it did was pretty good, but much of its past has been pretty dreadful (imperialism etc...).


Do you like your lifestyle and the society where you live?

I guess.


Do you like the laws that you have

Relative to a lot of the world they are pretty damn good, but there's a lot of room for improvement.


and the people who enforce them?

The police? They irritate me a bit.


Does having a millitary to defend the land where you live really tickle your chin?

Not sure what that means. :(


Is nationalism good or bad?

Nationalism should be kept within the football grounds (or whatever other sporting or competitive event you like). It has no place in politics, since it removes your objectivity.

It's better than getting tear gassed. *nod*

Heh some might say that it is much the same. Umm not I of course!:D

As Laerod said, I have two nationalities and my loyalties are sooo divided between the two that I have a hard time finding nationalism interesting, I could even like to have MORE nationalities, but then again, I'm a really open person, that's why I am being picked to participate in multinational cultural exchanges. I have despised my goverment for the last ten years, and I think I'll despise it for the next 5, bringing the total despise time to 15 years, my entire adulthood.

Well, Venezuela did topple the spanish empire and helped four other nations to achieve their independance, without wishing to conquer or otherwise occupy them, and receiving no financial gains or corporate advantages. I don't know if any other country in the world have done that, that would say one or two things about "influencing other countries in a positive way", "fighting for freedom around the world", and "defending democracy beyond our frontiers". Of course, that lack of ambition and self interest could be the main difference of why the United States of America today it is a "superpotence", and we venezuelans are still in the place, (and in the hands of who), we are now.

Of course, being spanish and venezuelan at the same time makes this a rather two edged sword. The most awesome achievement of the country where I live, was being one of the main factors behind the total disintegration of the remains of the empire the other country once was. It is tricky. That's why nationalism is hard to understand from my point of view.

As Laerod said, I have two nationalities and my loyalties are sooo divided between the two that I have a hard time finding nationalism interesting, I could even like to have MORE nationalities, but then again, I'm a really open person, that's why I am being picked to participate in multinational cultural exchanges. I have despised my goverment for the last ten years, and I think I'll despise it for the next 5, bringing the total despise time to 15 years, my entire adulthood.

Well, Venezuela did topple the spanish empire and helped four other nations to achieve their independance, without wishing to conquer or otherwise occupy them, and receiving no financial gains or corporate advantages. I don't know if any other country in the world have done that, that would say one or two things about "influencing other countries in a positive way", "fighting for freedom around the world", and "defending democracy beyond our frontiers". Of course, that lack of ambition and self interest could be the main difference of why the United States of America today it is a "superpotence", and we venezuelans are still in the place, (and in the hands of who), we are now.

Of course, being spanish and venezuelan at the same time makes this a rather two edged sword. The most awesome achievement of the country where I live, was being one of the main factors behind the total disintegration of the remains of the empire the other country once was. It is tricky. That's why nationalism is hard to understand from my point of view.

I my self am a thoroughbred Brit which of course means I'm a mongeral from a long line of mongerals!

Oh, and after being the target of extortion, reprisal, tear gas, gunshots, (that luckily didn't hit me), mocking, incompetence, and general abuse from the people that enforce the regime under I live now, you can figure it out my respect for said people is significantly low.

Do I like the laws of my country? Frankly, I couldn't tell, each month we have new laws. From my goverment it looks like each time they have a new idea, they place a new law. Of course, most laws in my country has been created, discussed, redacted and prepared by ONE individual, the president, and that makes me oppose them in most cases. According to our goverment, we should write and approve a new constitutional text each three years.

Do I like my lifestyle? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, but my lifestyle is more created by me as an individual than by my goverment, society, or country.

Yeah, Great Britain is pretty awesome. The rest of the UK, not so much.

Yeah, Great Britain is pretty awesome. The rest of the UK, not so much.

Bermuda isn't too bad :p

I personally think nationalism is dumb. I have lived in four different countries, and to say that one is vastly superior over others is just silly as each has their own strengths and weaknesses.

However, out of personal preference I do like Britain over the other three. :P That doesn't mean its a perfect society though.

Nationalism is like fire. A bit is useful and can do great things like cook food. Too much and you've burnt the house down.

Or maybe your like me and you like to see maps with imaginary lines drawn all over them?

Hang on, do you mean that when I look at a map those lines on the map I am really just imagining them and they aren't on the map?

Of course to be proud of your community doesn't mean you have to hate others nor does it mean you see yours as superior as others, it just means you are proud and happy to be apart of that community.

Yeah, Great Britain is pretty awesome. The rest of the UK, not so much.

I dunno, I hear Jersey and Gurnsey are nice places to live if you can afford it. The Isle of Man, not so much. Although technically neither of those are actually part of the United Kingdom but Crown Dependencies.

In terms of actual overseas territories, well Gibraltar has nice weather... as does Bermuda.

I don't "love" Britain, its just the political unit I was born into. I don't love its history, in fact there's much to be ashamed of, I'm indifferent to the government, I despair of much of the prevailing culture, especially the intolerance and ignorance of large sections of the population. And yet I'm aware that I am very lucky to live where I do compared to the many areas of the world where absolute poverty is widespread and life-chances highly limited. I'm glad I live where I do, but I'm not "proud" of it, or a nationalist in any sense. Indeed, the fact that there are such inequalities on a worldwide level I believe is heavily influenced by the fact that the world is artificially divided into states, leading to money being wasted by political elites on armed forces and wars which would be far better spent on social spending and building up the economy. The fact that rich nations control worldwide trade law and are thus in a position to manipulate it for their own interests rather than the common good is also troubling.

I don't "love" Britain, its just the political unit I was born into. I don't love its history, in fact there's much to be ashamed of, I'm indifferent to the government, I despair of much of the prevailing culture, especially the intolerance and ignorance of large sections of the population. And yet I'm aware that I am very lucky to live where I do compared to the many areas of the world where absolute poverty is widespread and life-chances highly limited. I'm glad I live where I do, but I'm not "proud" of it, or a nationalist in any sense. Indeed, the fact that there are such inequalities on a worldwide level I believe is heavily influenced by the fact that the world is artificially divided into states, leading to money being wasted by political elites on armed forces and wars which would be far better spent on social spending and building up the economy. The fact that rich nations control worldwide trade law and are thus in a position to manipulate it for their own interests rather than the common good is also troubling.

Much applause!

These poll options leave a lot to be desired.

I love the idea of the United States, some of the things it's done, and what it could be.

My love for and loyalty to California, however, far outstrips any affection I feel for my country.

I used to believe in nationalism ... but after I got more into politics I tend to greatly dislike our current nations as they are.

I dont love patches of dirt.

If you think that's what a nation is then you're sorely in need of a reality check. The dirt is where we live. A country is far more than the dirt it's built on. That's akin to saying your car is just a pile of metal. It's what the country does that counts and what it stands for. I love the USA, I would die to defend it. The land? No. The people and the freedom associated with the USA. it's the people that makes a nation, not the dirt. I will fight to the death to defend our way of life. Far better men than me have died defending it.

nationalism serves no purpose other than to divide.

it's as idiotic as statism or high schoolism

nationalism serves no purpose other than to divide.

it's as idiotic as statism or high schoolism

Being proud of your nation isn't idiotic and it damn sure doesn't serve to divide. I love this nation and support it. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything the leaders do and it doesn't mean I can't come up with a better way of doing things, it just means that I'm proud to be an American.

Why? Because this nation is a GOOD nation. How many times could we have expanded our borders in the past 100 years with nations that we captured? We don't fight wars to expand our borders, we fight wars to set people free to choose their own course. Look at Iraq as the latest example. They've gone from a terrorist in charge that waged war on Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds, other Iraqi people and one that was responsible for human rights violations out the yen yang. He was the reason there was sanctions in Iraq. In short, he was evil to the core. Here we are about 5 years later and the Iraqi people through an elected government under a constitution they passed are taking control of their own nation again. They are boldly asking America to leave (think they could do that to an imperialistic nation? LOL) and when we leave, know this... We leave behind a FREE nation where people have a say in their government. We leave behind a nation where terrorists are brought to justice, not promoted in Government. We leave behind a more prosperous nation that will go through growing pains but can freely trade with any nation they choose, as opposed to the Iraq under Sadaam. Add to that the fact that Sadaam and his punk sons are dead and I think that adds up to a pretty damn good reason to be proud of this nation, once again.

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

-thefreedictionary.com

So, do you love your country? If so, what do you love about your country? Do you love your current government? Or maybe, do you love what your government has accomplished in the past, like establishing democracy or something? Do you like your lifestyle and the society where you live? Do you like the laws that you have and the people who enforce them? Does having a millitary to defend the land where you live really tickle your chin? Or maybe your like me and you like to see maps with imaginary lines drawn all over them?

Is nationalism good or bad? I welcome you views.

I do love my goverment, their are few things about it I would canhge. We have strong leaders. My country has done many great accomplishments in its past. I like the culture and how we live our lives. Not to mention our military is kick ass, and I will be proud to serve it.

In the end I think nationalism is a good thing, it inspires people to do great things and be proud of who they are.

I dont love patches of dirt.
What happens if you can make a sexual partner out of sand? :hail:

As for me? I like my country, though I'd say I'm a mix of nationalist, internationalist and state regionalist. I'll add in a bit of speciest for good measure :p.

nationalism serves no purpose other than to divide.

it's as idiotic as statism or high schoolism
It serves to show Y (comprised of Z subgroups) population that they are so different from populations A-X that they need to band to together to show they're right.

Anyway, I partially like statism, though not statolatry.

"It seems to me to be an awful indignity to have ones soul constrained by geography"

That said, I cheer when Ireland beat England at football. Which is about the correct level of nationality to have, methinks.

Why? Because this nation is a GOOD nation. How many times could we have expanded our borders in the past 100 years with nations that we captured? We don't fight wars to expand our borders, we fight wars to set people free to choose their own course.

Spanish-American War, created by your goverment and media. Basically waged to expand your sphere of influence and try to capture territory for assimilation. Seems like you need to re study your lessons of history again.

I'm a firm nationalist. I believe that the United States should work to maintain its position as the dominant economic, military, and cultural superpower and that the world benefits more from the leadership of a responsible, rational United States than any other nation on Earth. We've got a lot going for us and I'd like nothing more to see our nation strong and respected, capable of doing whatever is necessary, and only what is necessary, to ensure our way of life remains secure.

too late

Being proud of your nation isn't idiotic and it damn sure doesn't serve to divide. I love this nation and support it. It doesn't mean I have to agree with everything the leaders do and it doesn't mean I can't come up with a better way of doing things, it just means that I'm proud to be an American.

Why? Because this nation is a GOOD nation. How many times could we have expanded our borders in the past 100 years with nations that we captured? We don't fight wars to expand our borders, we fight wars to set people free to choose their own course. Look at Iraq as the latest example. They've gone from a terrorist in charge that waged war on Iran, Kuwait, the Kurds, other Iraqi people and one that was responsible for human rights violations out the yen yang. He was the reason there was sanctions in Iraq. In short, he was evil to the core. Here we are about 5 years later and the Iraqi people through an elected government under a constitution they passed are taking control of their own nation again. They are boldly asking America to leave (think they could do that to an imperialistic nation? LOL) and when we leave, know this... We leave behind a FREE nation where people have a say in their government. We leave behind a nation where terrorists are brought to justice, not promoted in Government. We leave behind a more prosperous nation that will go through growing pains but can freely trade with any nation they choose, as opposed to the Iraq under Sadaam. Add to that the fact that Sadaam and his punk sons are dead and I think that adds up to a pretty damn good reason to be proud of this nation, once again.

and you only had to kill 43154 civilians over the past 3 years to do it . . .o and 4146 of your own soldiers . . . .and 8585 Iraqi militia and police force personnel. and you also trashed your economy. In order to kill Saddam and his sons and to get yourselves some oil. Well done though next time I recommend you just send in one B-2, F-35 or assassination team and kill the guy u wanna kill. It won't get you the oil but it'll be more efficient in the long run. O and to put those numbers in perspective the entirety of the tragedy on September 11th 2001 killed 2,974 people. so you've now killed (directly or due to your involvement), over 45x that number of civilians during the time you've been in Iraq (source (http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:Pv-FI6Ni36wJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf+casualty+rates+in+iraq+civilian&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca&client=firefox-a)) as well as nearly twice as many of your soldiers and nearly 4x as many iraq forces (your allies.).

Well not me, I definitely love myself a lot more than my country.

I care about my country because I care about myself.

Spanish-American War, created by your goverment and media. Basically waged to expand your sphere of influence and try to capture territory for assimilation. Seems like you need to re study your lessons of history again.

That's the best you can come up with? I asked a question and it stands.


How many times could we have expanded our borders in the past 100 years with nations that we captured?

Let's see, Guam, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines... which one of those are US states? Which one of those doesn't have a freely elected government? Oh yes, Cuba. Of course that kind of ignores the aftermath of the war. Prior to the war, Cuba was under Spanish control, after? Well, Cuba passed a Constitution in 1901. That's one hell of an imperialistic move for the US isn't it?

Has the US been perfect? Of course not. Has it been a force for good in the world. You're DAMN RIGHT it has. Anyone arguing otherwise is just plain ignorant of the facts.

and you only had to kill 43154 civilians over the past 3 years to do it . . .o and 4146 of your own soldiers . . . .and 8585 Iraqi militia and police force personnel. and you also trashed your economy. In order to kill Saddam and his sons and to get yourselves some oil. Well done though next time I recommend you just send in one B-2, F-35 or assassination team and kill the guy u wanna kill. It won't get you the oil but it'll be more efficient in the long run. O and to put those numbers in perspective the entirety of the tragedy on September 11th 2001 killed 2,974 people. so you've now killed (directly or due to your involvement), over 45x that number of civilians during the time you've been in Iraq (source (http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:Pv-FI6Ni36wJ:www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22537.pdf+casualty+rates+in+iraq+civilian&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca&client=firefox-a)) as well as nearly twice as many of your soldiers and nearly 4x as many iraq forces (your allies.).

Quite the ignorant piece of dribble here. Not really worthy of this response but a few things you're missing:

TERRORISTS have killed civilians on a regular basis. We've been bringing them to justice. Our economy? First off, it's hardly trashed, it still ranks at the top of the world by FAR, second, the war in Iraq has been a minor hiccup compared to the social spending going on inside of our nation. If anything is hurting our economy right now, it's irresponsible spending that isn't needed and that doesn't include defense, though there are things there that could be done more efficiently as well.

As to your recommendation, maybe we should have just bombed Hitler in WWII as well. Oh wait, simply killing a leader doesn't end a tyrannical Government, it just opens the door for #2 to march in. To CORRECT the problem, you must defeat the organization and assist the people in establishing a free nation. You know, like we did in Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc. Of course there was a time when Europeans understood this and helped, but I suppose that was a long time ago. Now they live in utopia-land where you can talk evil people out of evil acts rather than having to stand up to them. Seems like the leadership in the UK and a few other nations are the only ones that understand this still. I remember a great Englishman saying something one day that still stands ... "The only thing that evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing.". Learn from him.

putting the intrests of one's affiliates, whoever they are, however large a group, whatever their collective intrests, ahead of the well being of all humanity and of all of the web of life the existence of humanity depends upon, is an act of treason against all of humanity.

(and yes, that includes one's own segment, whatever segment that might happen to be)

I love the UK and I firmly believe it is the greatest country on this planet. I realise that such an opinion died out on a popular scale with World War One, but fuck it. I'm contemplating joining the Royal Air Force Reserves so I had better like this place :p

Do not listen to those naysayers, the Royal Air Force rules :)


So, do you love your country?

Although I now only hold UK citizenship (finally, wohoo!), I actually have Spanish and Indonesian background. The first I love and respect as I do the UK, the latter I have no respect for.

Do you love your current government? Or maybe, do you love what your government has accomplished in the past, like establishing democracy or something?

For the UK, I think the government has seriously lost it's way. However in the past we have achieved some wonderful things and it is only this legacy that has allowed the current culture of mediocrity to survive as long as it has. Despite that, many of our institutions and people are the greatest in their field.

For Spain, it's lovely to see how far things have come in the post Franco era, and to see Spain regain the respect she deserves. A Spanish warship recently circumnavigated the globe, the first time in 150 years.

Do you like your lifestyle and the society where you live?

Our high culture is excellent. Our specialist museums, galleries and societies are the world's best, no question. We have an excellent modern tradition in independent film, which I think is probably the best of our current visual arts. Our religious life is diverse and rich, and as Northern Ireland heals, this may become moreso and really pick up.

In Spain, although many institutions have suffered and the architectural inheritance has been destroyed with little thought or concern, some cultural fields are doing very well, and can still make a global impact, which is good. The performing arts remain rich and vibrant, if only they were decently funded. That Spain is effectively the heart of the Erasmus programme, and institutions like Granada, Seville and Santiago universities continue, after so long in the wilderness, to be given respect and carry weight across Europe is heartening.

Do you like the laws that you have and the people who enforce them?

Both UK and Spain have mostly good laws that are, for the most part, poorly enforced.

Does having a military to defend the land where you live really tickle your chin?

I don't see it as a good or bad thing. It simply is. I am proud that the British military can fight effectively despite being repeatedly humiliated by politicians into being subservient pack mules and "expendables" for US forces, and despite having inadequate equipment and funding for the job at hand. If the UK were facing invasion or if parliament attempted a coup, I would fight.

Or maybe your like me and you like to see maps with imaginary lines drawn all over them?

Some nations are artificial. Some have genuine historical meaning, and both he UK and Spain fall into the latter category.

history is history, other then to avoid repeating its mistakes, which most people who study it do intentionally anyway.

the only thing about not enough people knowing REAL history, is some of the political nonsense they buy into as a resault.

but since the history that is taught as history is never the REAL history, is never told from a sufficiently not biased possition to BE real history, the point becomes almost meaningless, unless they apply themselves to REAL historical scholarship, and somehow find a way to do so without neglecting their real present day lives, and the influence their own example sets, in order to do so.

That's the best you can come up with? I asked a question and it stands.

No, that was for starters.

Has the US been perfect? Of course not. Has it been a force for good in the world. You're DAMN RIGHT it has. Anyone arguing otherwise is just plain ignorant of the facts.

For US citizens, more likely. For the rest of the world, I can't see how.

For clarification no country at all is "a force for good". They aren't created with that in mind.

I am not really upset over the fact that the US behaves that way. Actually, it is almost the normal code of conduct of big, extremely powerful nations. What I despise is this posture of utterly recalcitrant hypocrisy.

You are pretty ready to lay waste to an entire country if some of your citizens are killed, for example. Including mostly innocents. Way to go to be a "force of good". The US administration was a "force of good" in Chile, for example.

You are pretty ready to lay waste to an entire country if some of your citizens are killed, for example. Including mostly innocents. Way to go to be a "force of good". The US administration was a "force of good" in Chile, for example.

No one would ever argue that the Nixon administration was a force for good, in any way shape or form. They embraced amoral positions in public, and immoral positions in secret. Key was their ability to keep these immoral positions and actions secret, and when the cover was blown off one secret, they all melted down.

No one would ever argue that the Nixon administration was a force for good, in any way shape or form. They embraced amoral positions in public, and immoral positions in secret. Key was their ability to keep these immoral positions and actions secret, and when the cover was blown off one secret, they all melted down.

#People forget China
And your war on cancer#

Quite the ignorant piece of dribble here. Not really worthy of this response but a few things you're missing:

TERRORISTS have killed civilians on a regular basis. We've been bringing them to justice.

By killing even more civilians...
And do you really, honestly think that a corpse cares if it was killed by terrorists or the US army?

China was nothing more than the most "realist" and opportunistic of administrations taking an opportunity to drive a wedge between the two big kids on the communist bloc. In 2008, yeah, the results have panned out, but his motivation was not the long-term relationship of the US and China.

As for cancer, that was merely political necessity. I mean, seriously, how would you like to be known as the "Pro-cancer" candidate?

China was nothing more than the most "realist" and opportunistic of administrations taking an opportunity to drive a wedge between the two big kids on the communist bloc. In 2008, yeah, the results have panned out, but his motivation was not the long-term relationship of the US and China.

As for cancer, that was merely political necessity. I mean, seriously, how would you like to be known as the "Pro-cancer" candidate?

Yeah, its from a song which looks at Nixon's delusionalism in a sympathetic/pitying way, comparing his legacy with JFK's which is considered to have been 'saved' from scandal by his early death.

No one would ever argue that the Nixon administration was a force for good, in any way shape or form. They embraced amoral positions in public, and immoral positions in secret. Key was their ability to keep these immoral positions and actions secret, and when the cover was blown off one secret, they all melted down.

opened relations with china, ended involvement in the Vietnam war, saved the US dollar by taking the us off the gold standard.

opened relations with china, ended involvement in the Vietnam war, saved the US dollar by taking the us off the gold standard.

Hush you, we are meant to focus on the worst scandal in recent US politcal history we don't want people like you pointing out the good things. :p

Being proud of your nation isn't idiotic and it damn sure doesn't serve to divide.

Naaa you're wrong and he was right. It is idiotic, and it does divide.

Look at your post in response, you have just acted in a divirsive manor, you went right on the attack straight away over a few words.

It is idioctic in that there is no reasonable arguments that you can put forward to show why it is a good idea, and it will always render down into an emotional response.

Think me wrong? Go right ahead and show me.

"It seems to me to be an awful indignity to have ones soul constrained by geography"

That said, I cheer when Ireland beat England at football. Which is about the correct level of nationality to have, methinks.

Yes I agree, I always cheer on my country at sports, and I do feel something other than hatred for the city I live in.

It is idioctic in that there is no reasonable arguments that you can put forward to show why it is a good idea, and it will always render down into an emotional response.

Your right it is idiotic to get emotional about anything. As for dividing, well yes it does but there is nothing wrong with a bit of friendly division what type of world would we live in if there was no such thing as rivalry?

A community I am in where we all have strong nationalistic tendencies except that it isn't a nation it is a sport club is going to play our main rivals tomorrow, we have a bit of rivalry between each others and we are divided but is it idiotic because we serve separate teams and are apart of different communities and will wear the logo on our chest with pride? I wouldn't say so you may disagree with me and say yes it is idiotic to have a rivalry with another team.

Your right it is idiotic to get emotional about anything. As for dividing, well yes it does but there is nothing wrong with a bit of friendly division what type of world would we live in if there was no such thing as rivalry?

A community I am in where we all have strong nationalistic tendencies except that it isn't a nation it is a sport club is going to play our main rivals tomorrow, we have a bit of rivalry between each others and we are divided but is it idiotic because we serve separate teams and are apart of different communities and will wear the logo on our chest with pride? I wouldn't say so you may disagree with me and say yes it is idiotic to have a rivalry with another team.


No you got it wrong man. It is idiotic not because of emotional context, but because that is all there is in it.

Unless you care to lay out a resoned argument why I am wrong? Go right ahead, why is nationalism a good thing?

Why is pride in ones country not only rational and reasonble, but also good?

No you got it wrong man. It is idiotic not because of emotional context, but because that is all there is in it.

Unless you care to lay out a resoned argument why I am wrong? Go right ahead, why is nationalism a good thing?

Why is pride in ones country not only rational and reasonble, but also good?

But I'm not claiming that at all, but I'm also not saying that it has to be a bad thing either. But I don't see what is wrong to be proud and happy to be apart of a community either.

But I'm not claiming that at all, but I'm also not saying that it has to be a bad thing either. But I don't see what is wrong to be proud and happy to be apart of a community either.

Ahhhhh got ya. I can't see it as a neutral thing myself. well sorta sorta not.

Nationalism, feeling pride in ones country, being willing to die and fight for it, that makes no sense at all to me. I can't see any reasonable defense of such a thing.

If you feel pride in your country why, for what reasons, what has your(not your personaly you understand) country done that generates such a feeling. What about shame? If you feel pride would you not also feel shame?

Tribalisation is of course a natural thing for us humans, to feel that we belong to a tribe, or community well there really is not much wrong with that, to feel nationalistic despite the history of man, and whichever country you happen to have been born in, is plain idiotic, to me anyway.

Ahhhhh got ya. I can't see it as a neutral thing myself. well sorta sorta not.

Nationalism, feeling pride in ones country, being willing to die and fight for it, that makes no sense at all to me. I can't see any reasonable defense of such a thing.

If you feel pride in your country why, for what reasons, what has your(not your personaly you understand) country done that generates such a feeling. What about shame? If you feel pride would you not also feel shame?

Well I think it falls down to personal choice and how people feel, you may not feel it because there may be nothing that your country has done to you personally or you may just not feel as though your community deserves your pride or that you should accept them. So they may not be a straightforward reasonable defense of of it but people do feel for it because they enjoy being apart of that community and may even feel some gratitude towards it.

Yes if you feel pride you can most certainly feel shame as well, there will be parts of the country that you can take pride in maybe it is how you managed to overthrow a foreign ruler who treated the country like shit and how the country has developed, but then you can also feel shame for other things that has happened in the country's history.

After all you can feel pride in yourself for things you have done and you can feel shame for things you have done. (Not using you as you but as a general you)

Well I think it falls down to personal choice and how people feel, you may not feel it because there may be nothing that your country has done to you personally or you may just not feel as though your community deserves your pride or that you should accept them. So they may not be a straightforward reasonable defense of of it but people do feel for it because they enjoy being apart of that community and may even feel some gratitude towards it.

Yes if you feel pride you can most certainly feel shame as well, there will be parts of the country that you can take pride in maybe it is how you managed to overthrow a foreign ruler who treated the country like shit and how the country has developed, but then you can also feel shame for other things that has happened in the country's history.

After all you can feel pride in yourself for things you have done and you can feel shame for things you have done. (Not using you as you but as a general you)

Yeah of course it is down to personal choice, the point I'm making though is wether or not nationalism(or more properly people who engage in such) has well thought out reasons.

I do not think that do, I see a lot of 'nationalist' give only kneejerk, emotional response whenever this dabate crops up. I could of course be wrong, but you know, I've yet to see an argument that could make me change my mind.

Nationalism, feeling pride in ones country, being willing to die and fight for it, that makes no sense at all to me. I can't see any reasonable defense of such a thing.

You can't see it because you can't see past the end of your own nose. You're greedy, selfish and see no value in the defense of the whole. That is why you can't see anything good in Nationalism.

I see our Constitution and what the US stands for in this world and I feel pride. Pride in something greater than myself. If I was self absorbed and ignorant, I too would see no value in something greater than myself. I feel pride in the USA because men and women died defending this nation and in doing so they gave me the opportunity to live my life in comfort and freedom. This nation, whether some people choose to admit it or not, is still a beacon of hope to millions around the world. The proof is that people are sneaking across the border to get here, the vast majority of them wanting to work their way to a better life. Are there other nations worthy of living in? Of course there are. What makes me so proud and willing to die for this nation? The people. I didn't spend 6 years in the Army to defend a piece of dirt, I spent that time to defend the people and the ability to rise above the conditions you were born into. There are a small group of nations where you can be born into poverty and end up being a millionaire. This is one of them. We don't feel pride in the USA, we feel pride in the fact that we have a great system and great people. Nationalism is productive and helps one to understand that there is more meaning to life than the end of their own nose. Standing up for principles and other people is what sets man apart. Some folks just haven't evolved enough to understand that IMO.

Nationalism is inherently selfish, egotistical and antagonizing. It does nothing to serve the greater good. It only causes rifts which limit progress.

I strongly dislike the Bush administration, and I don't see much good in either an Obama or McCain presidency. I oppose the view that "If we do anything, it must be right 'cuz we're doing it" or any other blind patriotism. I think the USA is headed down a very dark road, and that for the past few decades the government has been destroying our economy. I do believe in the people of my country, and the traditional constitutional government that we've lost.

Yeah of course it is down to personal choice, the point I'm making though is wether or not nationalism(or more properly people who engage in such) has well thought out reasons.

I do not think that do, I see a lot of 'nationalist' give only kneejerk, emotional response whenever this dabate crops up. I could of course be wrong, but you know, I've yet to see an argument that could make me change my mind.

Well you may never see one and to tell you the truth I doubt any argument will be to your satisfaction.

Yes it is emotional because that is what it is an emotion and a feeling some people feel pride and happiness to be apart of a community some people do not. It would be like asking someone to give them a reasonable non-emotional argument as, why do you love your children?

Some people may use it as away to place hate towards another community but I think that it doesn't need to be as I say we played against our rival today I feel pride in my team and being apart of that community, there may be no reasonable reason for that and it is based on my experience with other members of that community and how they community acts but I do feel it. As I say I don't see anything wrong with feeling pride to be apart of a community.