NationStates Jolt Archive

Death. Believe or not, I'm rather excited about it. Not in a "Hey, I'm gonna slit my wrists just to see!" kind of way, but more of a curious kind of way. We don't really know what happens when you die, and, with all truth, I'm a bit more then curious about it. Any one of a million things could happen, and we don't know any of which is true.

Maybe all of the xkcd has went to my head and somehow twisted around a bit. Maybe the late nights since the onset of high school have taken their toll. But as I said before, don't expect me to be committing suicide anytime soon, but you can sure expect my last words to be "Oh boy, I wonder what's behind that bright light!"

So NSGers, has any of the aforementioned things taken it's toll on my mind? Are you curiously excited about death?

A few songs have put into my head what I'd like to call a "Storybook ending" that, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't really show up in religion. My idea would be similar to reincarnation, only, instead of coming back in a different body, you come back in your own and live your life... again. Would kinda suck if that happened and you died in birth, but w/e.


Feel free to flame me about this rediculous idea.

*kills CM*

Death. Believe or not, I'm rather excited about it. Not in a "Hey, I'm gonna slit my wrists just to see!" kind of way, but more of a curious kind of way. We don't really know what happens when you die, and, with all truth, I'm a bit more then curious about it. Any one of a million things could happen, and we don't know any of which is true.

Maybe all of the xkcd has went to my head and somehow twisted around a bit. Maybe the late nights since the onset of high school have taken their toll. But as I said before, don't expect me to be committing suicide anytime soon, but you can sure expect my last words to be "Oh boy, I wonder what's behind that bright light!"

So NSGers, has any of the aforementioned things taken it's toll on my mind? Are you curiously excited about death?

Rent (or buy) White Noise 2... and then watch the special features.

*kills CM*

"I'm not dead!"
"What?"
"Nothing. here's your ninepence"

:D

Rent (or buy) White Noise 2... and then watch the special features.

Meh. Too Cheap/lazy. :p

but you can sure expect my last words to be "Oh boy, I wonder what's behind that bright light!"


Usually? A train. :p

OH OH I KNOW!!!!!!!! I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Death comes and talks to you, unless he's taking time off before dying in which case you just kinda sit there, OR if you're a wizard named Windle Poons, you return to your body and save Ankh-Morpork.

Oh yeah, and the same thing happends only with The Death of Rats if you're a rat.

OH OH I KNOW!!!!!!!! I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!

Death comes and talks to you, unless he's taking time off before dying in which case you just kinda sit there, OR if you're a wizard named Windle Poons, you return to your body and save Ankh-Morpork

Wait, doesn't he have to play a game for your life first? *gets out dungeon masters guide*

Wait, doesn't he have to play a game for your life first? *gets out dungeon masters guide*

actually that was a Reaper Man reference (Pratchett book)

actually that was a Reaper Man reference (Pratchett book)

That was a xkcd reference. (Webcomic, been reading too much of it lately)

That was a xkcd reference. (Webcomic, been reading too much of it lately)

heh *appologizes for his ignoracnce* I know pretty much nothing outside of my interestests. They don't include xkcd.

Way I figure it, it's probably going to happen at some point and there's no reason to wonder until I get there. Frankly, I'd like to choose when said point occurs, but I'm not necessarily counting on that being the case.

I will try not to die, if I can help it.
(Go Science!)

But if I were to die, nothing would happen.
Though I would like to believe in reincarnation,
I just can't get myself to do it.

in some respects I'm looking forward to death. However I'd rather not rush it just yet.

I don't think about it. I'm in the prime of life, why give a flying fuck about death?

I'm a Catholic, so I have a pretty solid idea of the afterlife's playbill: an unspecified amount of time as a bodiless soul in Paradise (aka Purgatory aka Abraham's Bosom), followed by ascension into Heaven, later followed by a bodily resurrection into Heaven established on earth.

Death is unfashionably overdone. I intend to make a bold and daring statement by leaving life alive. Once I've had my fill of tacos. *nod*

I'm not so much bothered about what happens after my death, as long as i go out in a blaze of firey glory. There should be TNT lots of TNT...

Seems like you don't want to go alone, Right Wing Politics. I didn't know you were such a social animal!

I think about death quite a lot. Largely about how it would make things easier. Not that I'm suicidal, or even contemplating death anytime soon.

Seems like you don't want to go alone, Right Wing Politics. I didn't know you were such a social animal!

haha o dear, i just realised i accidently made myself sound like a suicide bomber. To clarify the fire and glory would be in an area where nobody could be hurt, it would just be spectacular to watch. hmm maybe fireworks would improve the effect...

I think about death quite a lot. Largely about how it would make things easier. Not that I'm suicidal, or even contemplating death anytime soon.

Death making things easier is an assumption I suspect may not be true.

According to the movie, 'Beetlejuice', If you commit suicide, in the afterlife you become a civil servant. :p

death sucks

not so much for the dead person. that story is over, book closed.

it sucks big time for those who are left behind especially when its the death of a highschool aged boy with so much potential life to live.

the "adventure" will be the same whether you die at 14 or 104. the horrible lasting aching grief that you leave behind for your family and friends makes it well worth waiting until your life is a thing to be celebrated for its fullness instead of mourned for its waste.

Death making things easier is an assumption I suspect may not be true.

According to the movie, 'Beetlejuice', If you commit suicide, in the afterlife you become a civil servant. :p

But... That's inhumane!:p

I plan to have a fantastic death. A death so fantastic, it'd be front page story all across the country! :D

I don't look forward to death in any way, nor to I care what happens once you die. I will do everything I can to stay alive.

I'm curious, but I'm in no hurry to find out. It's the last thing I get to do in this life, and I'm enjoying myself right now. What ever comes after (if anything comes after) might not be as fun.

Look at the coffin with golden handles
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Let's not have a sniffle,
Let's have a bloody good cry
And always remember the longer you live,
The sooner you'll bloody well die

Look at the preacher, bloody well sanctified (bloody sanctimonious)
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Look at the choir boys, bloody castrati
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Look at the widow, bloody great female
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Look at the mourners, bloody great hypocrites
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Look at the flowers, all bloody wilted
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Look at the tombstone, bloody great boulder
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

Look at the whiskey, in buckets and bottles
Isn't it grand boys to be bloody well dead?

But... That's inhumane!:p

I love that movie:

Adam and Barbara: "We're very unhappy!"

Juno: "What do you expect? You're dead!"

According to the national statistics, it would seem most people like to try death at least once during their lives.... :tongue:

As for me, I'm curious, but in absolutly no rush at all to find out. I have a lot to do in life, too much, and limited time.

Death making things easier is an assumption I suspect may not be true.

She may be speaking about the deaths of some of the people around her.

Are you curiously excited about death?
Epicurus puts it better than I ever could:

"Become accustomed to the idea that death is nothing to us. For all good and evil consists in sensation, but death is deprivation of sensation. And therefore a right understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not because it adds to it an infinite span of time, but because it takes away the craving for immortality. For there is nothing terrible in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living.

Death does not then concern either the living or the dead, since for the former it is not, and the latter are no more."

I am perhaps curiously excited about dying. But I will cease to exist when I die, so I don't see how I could be excited by it.

Epicurus puts it better than I ever could:

"Become accustomed to the idea that death is nothing to us. For all good and evil consists in sensation, but death is deprivation of sensation. And therefore a right understanding that death is nothing to us makes the mortality of life enjoyable, not because it adds to it an infinite span of time, but because it takes away the craving for immortality. For there is nothing terrible in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living.

Death does not then concern either the living or the dead, since for the former it is not, and the latter are no more."

I am perhaps curiously excited about dying. But I will cease to exist when I die, so I don't see how I could be excited by it.
Sez you. I have a bit more positive outlook.:D

Sez you. I have a bit more positive outlook.:D
I see nothing negative in my outlook whatsoever; on the contrary.

An integral part of who I am is my body (or, to be more accurate, my body-mind) and my existence as a temporal being; namely a human. If, when I die, there was some sort of 'afterlife', the being in said 'afterlife' would not be me at all, for, at the very least, it would not have any body.

It would not be an 'afterlife', but a seperate life.

Thus, I cannot exist after my death, and thus need not worry about a hypothetical 'after', allowing me to enjoy my life to the full. I find nothing heartening for me in the concept of a seperate being enjoying a life after mine has ended.

I see nothing negative in my outlook whatsoever; on the contrary.

An integral part of who I am is my body (or, to be more accurate, my body-mind) and my existence as a temporal being; namely a human. If, when I die, there was some sort of afterlife, the being in said afterlife would not be me at all, for, at the very least, it would not have any body.

Thus, I cannot exist after my death, and thus need not worry about a hypothetical 'after', allowing me to enjoy my life to the full. I find nothing heartening for me in the concept of a seperate being enjoying a life after mine has ended.
If you're going to get that pedantic over definitions, then you won't exist by this time next week anyway, as the chemical composition of your body and the nature of your experiences will have changed. You might as well spend your whole life laying on the couch, drinking cheap liquor and eating raw bacon. Fuck the guy who'll be later, he can clean up the mess on his own.
When people talk about life after death, they only mean that the continuous stream of consciousness that they have enjoyed through life will continue in spite of the loss of vital function.

If you're going to get that pedantic over definitions, then you won't exist by this time next week anyway, as the chemical composition of your body and the nature of your experiences will have changed.
A change of cells in my body-mind is completely different to a change from a physical being bound by time and space, and a being defined by his physicality and place in space and time, to a non-physical being outside time and space.

I am a human on Earth. I am not some 'spirit' in the 'afterlife'. And that 'spirit' cannot be me.

When people talk about life after death, they only mean that the continuous stream of consciousness that they have enjoyed through life will continue in spite of the loss of vital function.
That "stream of consciousness" is defined by the confines of physicality; it exists because of such confines. Without them, there is no consciousness.

Without them, there is no me.

A change of cells in my body-mind is completely different to a change from a physical being bound by time and space, and a being defined by his physicality and place in space and time, to a non-physical being outside time and space.

I am a human on Earth. I am not some 'spirit' in the 'afterlife'. And that 'spirit' cannot be me.
And what does that have to do with reincarnation? Or being given a new, resurrected body at the end of time? Or any number of other views of an afterlife which don't involve "being outside time and space?"
That "stream of consciousness" is defined by the confines of physicality; it exists because of such confines. Without them, there is no consciousness.

Without them, there is no me.
Once again, an afterlife doesn't inherently mean losing your grip on time or the ability to tell where you end and other things begin. I agree that something like achieving loving oneness (or nirvana or whatever) would necessarily mean the end of anything I could identify as myself, but that is just one idea of how things could go after I die.

And what does that have to do with reincarnation?
I am not being reincarnated, for the 'new me' does not remember my self and has no connection with my self. Even if we concede that reincarnation exists, we cannot concede that the reincarnated person is the same as the person before.

They are, at the very least, seperate beings.

Or any number of other views of an afterlife which don't involve "being outside time and space?"
Reincarnation or rebirth involve some aspects of being outside of time and space, and all formulations of the concept I have heard involve a transformation of self into a new self, or even talk about a 'master', 'true' or 'ultimate' self; quite devoid of the individual I am.

I'm not claiming my position precludes reincarnation or an 'afterlife', but simply that any existence post-death would be a fundamental change of self; a change of self so great that it would not be an afterlife but a seperate life.

Once again, an afterlife doesn't inherently mean losing your grip on time or the ability to tell where you end and other things begin.
As a firm believer in the monism of body-mind, it certainly does for me.

I am not being reincarnated, for the 'new me' does not remember my self and has no connection with my self. Even if we concede that reincarnation exists, we cannot concede that the reincarnated person is the same as the person before.

They are, at the very least, seperate beings.

Reincarnation or rebirth involve some aspects of being outside of time and space, and all formulations of the concept I have heard involve a transformation of self into a new self, or even talk about a 'master', 'true' or 'ultimate' self; quite devoid of the individual I am.

I'm not claiming my position precludes reincarnation or an 'afterlife', but simply that any existence post-death would be a fundamental change of self; a change of self so great that it would not be an afterlife but a seperate life.
Should a person suffer from total amnesia or be brainwashed, would they be a separate being?
As a firm believer in the monism of body-mind, it certainly does for me.
But then what justification do you have for claiming that you are the same person from moment to moment? The individual elements that make up your body are in constant flux, even the physical confines of your body are letting stuff in and out at all times.

Should a person suffer from total amnesia or be brainwashed, would they be a separate being?
If both were severe enough, then yes, to an extent.

But then what justification do you have for claiming that you are the same person from moment to moment?
I don't think I am, again to a certain extent.

All parts of the body-mind change over time, all are in constant flux. I am not the same person that I was ten years ago, both physically and mentally. The mental memories and physical bodily repercussions of events that happened in the past combine to form an identity that can be traced and introspectively viewed, called 'I', and if either of these parts of the self are destroyed to a certain degree, that self changes drastically or ceases to exist at all.

Yet all of this is bound by a self that is both physical and mental, and defined as such. To abandon such a huge part of the self is to change it, to destroy it, in a sense.

Death. Believe or not, I'm rather excited about it. Not in a "Hey, I'm gonna slit my wrists just to see!" kind of way, but more of a curious kind of way. We don't really know what happens when you die, and, with all truth, I'm a bit more then curious about it. Any one of a million things could happen, and we don't know any of which is true.

Maybe all of the xkcd has went to my head and somehow twisted around a bit. Maybe the late nights since the onset of high school have taken their toll. But as I said before, don't expect me to be committing suicide anytime soon, but you can sure expect my last words to be "Oh boy, I wonder what's behind that bright light!"

So NSGers, has any of the aforementioned things taken it's toll on my mind? Are you curiously excited about death?

slow rotting. that's what you have to look forward to.

i seriously don't believe any any kind of afterlife or reincarnation, or anything. our brains are a bunch of chemicals. once our body stops functioning, these chemicals degrade, our brain stops being a brain and becomes no more than a bag of cells, and the rest of our body rots. nothing to look forward to there - but nothing to fear either.

Death. Believe or not, I'm rather excited about it. Not in a "Hey, I'm gonna slit my wrists just to see!" kind of way, but more of a curious kind of way. We don't really know what happens when you die, and, with all truth, I'm a bit more then curious about it. Any one of a million things could happen, and we don't know any of which is true.

Maybe all of the xkcd has went to my head and somehow twisted around a bit. Maybe the late nights since the onset of high school have taken their toll. But as I said before, don't expect me to be committing suicide anytime soon, but you can sure expect my last words to be "Oh boy, I wonder what's behind that bright light!"

So NSGers, has any of the aforementioned things taken it's toll on my mind? Are you curiously excited about death?

Well the whole uncertainty element of death is begging for curiosity and excitement. After all it is a realm open to imaginations and fantasies for those who are still alive.

Although observations in life shows that having a brain surely beats not having a brain. I mean we are smarter than a snail or a starfish right? So I don't exactly look forward to not having one, which is the only sure thing death brings.

Well the whole uncertainty element of death is begging for curiosity and excitement. After all it is a realm open to imaginations and fantasies for those who are still alive.

Although observations in life shows that having a brain surely beats not having a brain. I mean we are smarter than a snail or a starfish right? So I don't exactly look forward to not having one, which is the only sure thing death brings.
You can't be sure until you've tried it.;) Nothing is sure in the unknown.

You can't be sure until you've tried it.;) Nothing is sure in the unknown.
We can be fairly sure of brain-death.

We can be fairly sure of brain-death.

Maybe here. But think about it, as a computer's memory can be transferred from one to another, why can't you say that about the mind? I'm not saying that your mind would go into another body, but why couldn't go somewhere else, so to speak? We don't know, because none of us have ever died and lived to tell the tale.:tongue:

Maybe here. But think about it, as a computer's memory can be transferred from one to another, why can't you say that about the mind?
Because, I believe, one cannot seperate the body-mind.

Dualism is soooo last millennium.

When you die I believe you just simply rot and pretty soon everyone forgets you existed. As you can't feel anything, being dead's neither a pleasurable nor painful experience. So rather than getting fixated by death (though I think its to some extent something you can't avoid thinking about) I try to maximise pleasurable experiences in this life for myself and those who I can have an impact on while also trying to minimise the painful ones. I don't think theres any higher purpose to life, and that what time you have you have to make the most of, be yourself and try and make yourself and others happy. Not that I'm doing a great job of that, but hey.

Because, I believe, one cannot seperate the body-mind.

Dualism is soooo last millennium.

*Surgically removes Chumbly's brain, puts in a nutrient jar*

HA!:p

*Surgically removes Chumbly's brain, puts in a nutrient jar*
A nice way to illustrate my point, for the removal of the brain would destroy both my body and my mind.

A nice way to illustrate my point, for the removal of the brain would destroy both my body and my mind.
You know that for sure? Maybe with our current technology, but someday, in the next hundred years or so...

You know that for sure?
I'm sure as I can be.

Maybe with our current technology, but someday, in the next hundred years or so...
But all this technology would do (as far as I can see) would be to prevent death by providing the brain with everything it needs to keep going. Moreover, you'd have to hook up the brain to a bunch of sensors; artificial eyes, ears, nerves, tongue and the like. Following on from what I've been saying above, this removal of the brain would, IMO, dramatically change the individual to a point where the individual would cease to exist.

I'm sure as I can be.


But all this technology would do (as far as I can see) would be to prevent death by providing the brain with everything it needs to keep going. Moreover, you'd have to hook up the brain to a bunch of sensors; artificial eyes, ears, nerves, tongue and the like. Following on from what I've been saying above, this removal of the brain would, IMO, dramatically change the individual to a point where the individual would cease to exist.
In your opinion. I guess we won't be able to know, mostly because you would probably either be:

A: So scarred by the experience you can't talk/use whatever artificial communication device you have.

OR

B: You'll claim you aren't the same person anymore.

I'm sure as I can be.


But all this technology would do (as far as I can see) would be to prevent death by providing the brain with everything it needs to keep going. Moreover, you'd have to hook up the brain to a bunch of sensors; artificial eyes, ears, nerves, tongue and the like. Following on from what I've been saying above, this removal of the brain would, IMO, dramatically change the individual to a point where the individual would cease to exist.

Hooking up a pickled brain to electrodes isn't much different from a "normal" process, like growing up.

Your 6-year old "self" ceased to exist long ago, and your current self is a shadow of your 6-year old self who had adapted to drastically changed conditions.

Likewise, your disembodied, brain-in-a-jar self will be your 20-, or 40-, or 60- year old self learning to adapt to drastically changed conditions.

Maybe here. But think about it, as a computer's memory can be transferred from one to another, why can't you say that about the mind? I'm not saying that your mind would go into another body, but why couldn't go somewhere else, so to speak? We don't know, because none of us have ever died and lived to tell the tale.:tongue:

When my hard drive dies, it's information die with it. We can "backup" our information on a new piece of hardware, like a dvd. But it isn't the same as the original hard drive lives on or something. This transfer is more similar to how we teach the next generation our knowledge, rather than the original person's mystical transcendence after death.

The thing is that the brain, as a wetware, is responsible for consciousness. You don't have to take my word for it, just drink some alcohol. If you drink enough you will start to notice that information doesn't magically got back up. You can wake up next morning not remembering what you did. If drinking some chemicals can make your pass out, I am sure dying will eliminate consciousness.

Because, I believe, one cannot seperate the body-mind.

Dualism is soooo last millennium.

This is a strange way to look at it. If you get into an accident and you lose your finger, you are no longer yourself? What about an arm? A leg? A vital organ? At which point would you no longer be yourself?

I am more into the idea that consciousness is the product of our brain.

It depends, do I get a guy in a robe turning up, or just the blackout deal?

So NSGers, has any of the aforementioned things taken it's toll on my mind? Are you curiously excited about death?

I think I'd rather wait a (long) while to find out what happens. Although, I predict there won't really be anything.

This is a strange way to look at it. If you get into an accident and you lose your finger, you are no longer yourself? What about an arm? A leg? A vital organ? At which point would you no longer be yourself?
Necessarily, if my body was drastically changed, my person would change, just as if I experienced an event that drastically changed me mentally. If I lose a finger, I am obviously a different person from the person who had ten fingers; a different person in the sense that I am a different person from he who went through a big event in life.

I too am "into the idea that consciousness is the product of our brain", and would argue, seemingly along with you, that without the brain there can b no life, no consciousness. The brain, obviously, is connected to the rest of our body, and my main point in this thread is to argue that the connection, the 'confines' of our physical existence, are an integral part of who we are.

Losing that (apart from, I would contend, ending our life altogether), would mean a complete change of persona; so much so, that I maintain 'we' would not exist any further.

Necessarily, if my body was drastically changed, my person would change, just as if I experienced an event that drastically changed me mentally. If I lose a finger, I am obviously a different person from the person who had ten fingers; a different person in the sense that I am a different person from he who went through a big event in life.

I too am "into the idea that consciousness is the product of our brain", and would argue, seemingly along with you, that without the brain there can b no life, no consciousness. The brain, obviously, is connected to the rest of our body, and my main point in this thread is to argue that the connection, the 'confines' of our physical existence, are an integral part of who we are.

Losing that (apart from, I would contend, ending our life altogether), would mean a complete change of persona; so much so, that I maintain 'we' would not exist any further.
But when the brain is disembodied and hooked up to the hypothetical artificial sensors, the "'confines' of our physical existence" are not lost. They are simply changed, just as a severed finger or a limb represent changes.

But when the brain is disembodied and hooked up to the hypothetical artificial sensors, the "'confines' of our physical existence" are not lost. They are simply changed, just as a severed finger or a limb represent changes.
Yes I quite agree.

But CM is talking about removing the brain as well, and somehow expecting a person to still exist.

I'm not so much bothered about what happens after my death, as long as i go out in a blaze of fiery glory. There should be TNT lots of TNT...

Maybe a new Guy Fawkes Day in your honor?

I'll be fine with death when I feel like I've done something good enough to leave. I don't mean like saving the world or anything, just made an impact (hopefully good) on those around me.

Yes I quite agree.

But CM is talking about removing the brain as well, and somehow expecting a person to still exist.
Yep.:wink:

It depends on the manner of my dying. A good rule of thumb: if people snicker when they see my corpse in the open casket, I probably did not go the way I would have preferred.

Yep.:wink:
So, how important would you say the body is in defining someone's person?

And are you advocating a 'Ghost in the Shell' type argument; that a person 'inhabits' their body during life, before moving on to somewhere else after death?

So, how important would you say the body is in defining someone's person?

And are you advocating a 'Ghost in the Shell' type argument; that a person 'inhabits' their body during life, before moving on to somewhere else after death?
1.Your body isn't important in defining you, except in the way that your mind reacts to it, and others react to you, shaping your experiences.

2.I'm guessing, yeah.

3.And isn't "Ghost in the shell" some sort of anime thing?

1.Your body isn't important in defining you, except in the way that your mind reacts to it, and others react to you, shaping your experiences.
Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

2.I'm guessing, yeah.

3.And isn't "Ghost in the shell" some sort of anime thing?
Yes, but the title of the manga and subsequent anime refers to the notion (that I reject) that consciousness can be completely devoid of the body. Much of the plot(s) revolves around technology that allows people to transfer their consciousness to other bodies, multiple bodies, or simply to float free on the net.

My point is, however, that subscribing to a Ghost in the Shell doctrine brings up some difficult questions to answer, such as: where does consciousness 'reside'?; how are mind and body connected?; is said connection physical?; and many more.

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

Kinda. I don't really think I'm awake at the moment. Then again, I rarely am :tongue:

Yes, but the title of the manga and subsequent anime refers to the notion (that I reject) that consciousness can be completely devoid of the body. Much of the plot(s) revolves around technology that allows people to transfer their consciousness to other bodies, multiple bodies, or simply to float free on the net.

My point is, however, that subscribing to a Ghost in the Shell doctrine brings up some difficult questions to answer, such as: where does consciousness 'reside'?; how are mind and body connected?; is said connection physical?; and many more.
Many things lead to difficult questions to answer. But if we threw away everything with such questions, where would we be today?

Kinda. I don't really think I'm awake at the moment. Then again, I rarely am
I ken how you feel.

Many things lead to difficult questions to answer. But if we threw away everything with such questions, where would we be today?
Oh, definitely.

I wasn't trying to say that because these difficult questions exist, one should abandon the position, just that they need to be answered (and I'm not demanding answers off of you), and that, for me, they come to an insurmountable problem.

Steven Pinker, in his book The Blank Slate, has a rather good and accessible discussion of Ghost in the Shell theory, and its limitations. Highly recommended.