NationStates Jolt Archive

HOAs are Satan

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/08/18/dallas-hoa-prohibits-parking-f-150-in-driveway-lincoln-mark-lt/?icid=200100397x1207955841x1200402830

oh that must be a subdivision for YANKEES

Ok, perhaps I'm being rural here, but why do your neighbors get to dictate what you use your property for?

I would procure a gigantic pink Hummer and park it in the driveway.

Ok, perhaps I'm being rural here, but why do your neighbors get to dictate what you use your property for?

Because when you bought the property you signed papers that said so.

*reminds self never to join a HOA*

Because when you bought the property you signed papers that said so.

Time to convert the front lawn into a hog lot.

I know I'd never consider buying a property if there was a Ford in the neighbourhood.

...and the world continues to amaze me with its stupidity. What a stupid rule. And the snobbish reasons, even worse. The people who insisted on the clause and its implementation should have their property confiscated and be forced to live in a poor neighbourhood for a while. Arrogant, smarmy douchebags.

My HOA has a rule about what color of curtains you can have. *nod*

It was all in the book they give you before closing that you are supposed to READ before you sign the papers.

My HOA has a rule about what color of curtains you can have. *nod*

It was all in the book they give you before closing that you are supposed to READ before you sign the papers.

All the more reason to move to Idaho and start a militia. War on Home Owners Associations! Fascist bastards!

My HOA has a rule about what color of curtains you can have. *nod*

It was all in the book they give you before closing that you are supposed to READ before you sign the papers.

:eek2:

Do they tell you how many breathes to take per day, how you should move your fork, approved food lists, and how many children you can have per family too???

*Iz glad he lives in a place without a HOA*

Rule #1: Quote the article when you link...

Yet another example of a Homeowner's Association run amok... A Texas homeowner in Frisco (just north of Dallas) has been told by the Stonebriar HOA that his new Ford F-150 isn't allowed to be parked in his driveway. The Association, established to protect Jim Greenwood's interests (that's the theory at least), will allow his neighbor's Cadillac Escalades, Honda Ridgelines, and even a HUMMER or two, but his new pickup violates a rule that prohibits pickups in the driveway.
When Mr. Greenwood inquired as to why a Lincoln Mark LT could park in the neighborhood, but his practically identical F-150 couldn't, the response from the HOA was, "'It's our belief that Lincoln markets to a different class of people." Doh! As of now, Mr. Greenwood's options are to get another vehicle, or move.
If it were us, we'd replace the F-150 with a yellow Caterpillar 972H Wheel Loader. Yeah, that would get them to quickly change their mind... Thanks for the tip, Neil!

All the more reason to move to Idaho and start a militia. War on Home Owners Associations! Fascist bastards!
I guess I don't really mind since I have blinds. The moment the community starts looking trashy like having aluminum foil in the windows or sheets hung up then my property value goes down.


:eek2:

Do they tell you how many breathes to take per day, how you should move your fork, approved food lists, and how many children you can have per family too???

*Iz glad he lives in a place without a HOA*
They tell people to pick up their dog shit, and where my car can be parked (reserved parking) and where it can't be parked (in the fire lane) and what I can't have on my patio (indoor furniture) and what I can't do after 11pm at night (sex orgies in the court yard) etc.

They tell people to pick up their dog shit, and where my car can be parked (reserved parking) and where it can't be parked (in the fire lane) and what I can't have on my patio (indoor furniture) and what I can't do after 11pm at night (sex orgies in the court yard) etc.

What legal remedy do they have if you fail to abide by their terms?

And is what constitutes acceptable behaviour stipulated in the agreement or is it up to the opinions of the association themselves? I doubt that the agreement specifically lists which cars are appropriate so it might suggest in this case that it comes down to individual opinion.

What legal remedy do they have if you fail to abide by their terms?
They can fine me, and if I don't pay then they can put a lien on my property and if I end up owing them too much they can foreclose.

And is what constitutes acceptable behaviour stipulated in the agreement or is it up to the opinions of the association themselves? I doubt that the agreement specifically lists which cars are appropriate so it might suggest in this case that it comes down to individual opinion.

There is a big list of "rules" that must be updated with new rules, the board members make up the rules, if you go to the board meetings you can whine and complain about the rules but it might not change much. About 80% of my community doesn't go to the board meetings because they are "boring" so when new rules come up for discussion they aren't there to discuss. Mostly the busybodies (and people like me....) show up to the meetings, so it's kinda like a ruling class. I've been able to whine enough to get some "new rules" shot down.

I skimmed our HOA rules before I moved in. I should have done more than skim. I found out, the hard way, you can't feed the squirrels, you can only have certain types of bird feeders (squirrel-proof - that's a lol), you can't put anything on the back deck, even temporarily, that detracts (by their standards) from the beauty of the cumulative back deck uniformity.

What's worst is Larna. Larna is the HOA snoop. She lives on my street and is constantly walking her noisy, smelly little dog around the neighborhood and taking notes. Larna is universally disliked. She's also secretary of the HOA. I may go to a meeting and run against her.

Campaign to have noisy, smelly little dogs banned.

I skimmed our HOA rules before I moved in. I should have done more than skim. I found out, the hard way, you can't feed the squirrels, you can only have certain types of bird feeders (squirrel-proof - that's a lol), you can't put anything on the back deck, even temporarily, that detracts (by their standards) from the beauty of the cumulative back deck uniformity.

What's worst is Larna. Larna is the HOA snoop. She lives on my street and is constantly walking her noisy, smelly little dog around the neighborhood and taking notes. Larna is universally disliked. She's also secretary of the HOA. I may go to a meeting and run against her.

I'm running for the board. I need to get the pool rules changed. Right now you aren't allowed to have more than 5 people at the pool from your condo (including residents) without special permission. We are a family of 4, I need to be able to invite more than 1 friend to the pool at a time.

You should go to the board meeting and say that "some people" have loud animals and you would like to know what the association is going to do about this....or if you should just call the police.

There is a big list of "rules" that must be updated with new rules, the board members make up the rules, if you go to the board meetings you can whine and complain about the rules but it might not change much. About 80% of my community doesn't go to the board meetings because they are "boring" so when new rules come up for discussion they aren't there to discuss.

sounds to me like an inherently unjust system of enacting rules - even reasonable ones.

I skimmed our HOA rules before I moved in. I should have done more than skim. I found out, the hard way, you can't feed the squirrels, you can only have certain types of bird feeders (squirrel-proof - that's a lol), you can't put anything on the back deck, even temporarily, that detracts (by their standards) from the beauty of the cumulative back deck uniformity.
ooo but you shouldn't feed squirrels. If you feed them too much of the wrong stuff it will hurt their health. Even if you feed them the right stuff it makes them less afraid of humans and more likely to go through your garbage and make a mess. Or more likely to take food from other humans who may be feeding them unhealthy things.

What legal remedy do they have if you fail to abide by their terms?

Typically injunctive, they can get a court order for you to stop doing whatever it is you're doing.

well he can likely fight this. though most of the rules are harder to fight. he should read the HOA rules with a lawyer and see if he has a reasonable chance to fight this.

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

We really need to ban HOA's. When I buy property it's MY property people, not yours.

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

I suggest getting the hell over yourself.

The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want...

...any poor people within my sight

cake, anyone?

ooo but you shouldn't feed squirrels. If you feed them too much of the wrong stuff it will hurt their health. Even if you feed them the right stuff it makes them less afraid of humans and more likely to go through your garbage and make a mess. Or more likely to take food from other humans who may be feeding them unhealthy things.
and squirrels can carry the plague.

thats why i dont encourage them to come near my house.

I'm running for the board. I need to get the pool rules changed. Right now you aren't allowed to have more than 5 people at the pool from your condo (including residents) without special permission. We are a family of 4, I need to be able to invite more than 1 friend to the pool at a time.

You should go to the board meeting and say that "some people" have loud animals and you would like to know what the association is going to do about this....or if you should just call the police.

Take over! Smunkee Dictatorship!

We really need to ban HOA's. When I buy property it's MY property people, not yours.
i guess if everyone WANTS to live under the watchful eye of the dog lady, its their business.

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

this is Texas. Pickups are considered middle class here because they look cowboyish which equates to classy. the poor folks normally drive cars cause they are cheap. i think 25% of all non commercial vehicles are pickups in Texas.

and squirrels can carry the plague.

thats why i dont encourage them to come near my house.

O_O Really?

O_O Really?
yuppers.

i live in an plague area.

new mexico.

Wait a minute, aren't Escalades and Hummers often purchased and owned by...black people? Now that is something any upstanding HOA should consider, lest their purity be destroyed by negroid invaders.

I plan to never join an HOA.

I'm so glad I don't live in a home owners association. Seriously wow.

The articles jokes that he should buy some caterpillar wheel mover and park it there, hell I'd get one of those free Australian tanks they were giving away a while back and tear up the pavement with it :p

What happens if you break HOA rules?

It's not like they can evict you..

I plan to never join an HOA.

In my area I had a choice between ghetto, white trash run down neighborhood, rural area, or HOA.

The only thing that keeps neighborhoods from being run down is HOA's.

What happens if you break HOA rules?

It's not like they can evict you..

In some states they can foreclose on your home. Like in my state. They can foreclose on you if you owe even as little as $2K in back fees and fines.

There are good points to HOAs - here they maintain all outdoor space, yard maintenance (except for any container gardens, which are the homeowners responsibility - oh, and must conform to HOA standards), painting, all external repairs, snow removal and street repairs. They also pay for water, trash disposal and sewers. For this I pay $169/mo. That's really pretty reasonable for the services. The problem is that HOAs quickly tend to become intrusive, petty dictators.

The guy needs to take pictures of all the vehicles that are truck-like in his area (Escalade, Ridgeline, Mark LT, etc), and bring them and a lawyer to one of the HOA meetings. I wonder what the HOA will do if a lawyer gets involved, and the guy has pictures of similar vehicles.

ETA: Page 2 is MINE!!!!!! :D

There are good points to HOAs - here they maintain all outdoor space, yard maintenance (except for any container gardens, which are the homeowners responsibility - oh, and must conform to HOA standards), painting, all external repairs, snow removal and street repairs. They also pay for water, trash disposal and sewers. For this I pay $169/mo. That's really pretty reasonable for the services. The problem is that HOAs quickly tend to become intrusive, petty dictators.

They seem to work best when there isn't one person or a cadre of people in charge of the whole thing. In fact, the best model seems to be when people keep an eye on their neighbors' property and try to work things out between themselves first. I think someone had a bit of a dictator complex going and decided to have some passive-aggressive fun with a neighbor they dislike.

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

I suggest getting over yourself.

The Average new Pickup cost 20-30,000. And the larger ones cost beteen 45-60,000.

So they're not really low class.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/TRUCKS.jpg

Each of those cost over 50,000.

Low class, right.

Snob.

Low class, right.

Snob.

The fact that anybody could consider a Hummer "classier" than an F-150 baffles me. Honestly, the F-150 flat out looks better, works better, and is a better value in all aspects than that beast.

It's all about the price.


By the way, pickups ARE used, and I mean as in used, not just shown off, by well-off people as well. Of course, you can tow a trailer with a motorboat with a SUV, but pickups are just better cut out for that. And you can't put a PWC into a SUV, while you can on a pickup truck.

As for Hummer H2, its towing capacity is less than that of F-150. Plus it's crap (http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2003-hummer-h2.htm). Plus it's just basically a Chevy with a high-drag body kit.

As for Hummer H2, its towing capacity is less than that of F-150. Plus it's crap (http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2003-hummer-h2.htm). Plus it's just basically a Chevy with a high-drag body kit.

And people wonder why GM is going bankrupt...

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

Hey, be sure to not fall off that pedestal that you're sitting on. You wouldn't want to be down here with us commoners would ya?

Ok, perhaps I'm being rural here, but why do your neighbors get to dictate what you use your property for?
Because you agreed to the covenants. But I don't think most people fully appreciate what they are agreeing to at the time. All they see is the nice house in the nice neighborhood. Something strict covenants do encourage...

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

Wages must be pretty damn good in the construction industry...I seem to see a lot of motorboats and huge RVs behind those plebeian pickup trucks. Truth be told, anyone that makes a big deal about someone's brand new truck is nothing more than an asshole. In most cases, those who do use their trucks for work are hard-working entrepreneurs that deserve respect for their dedication and effort. Actually, anyone who considers a Hummer to be superior to an F-150 probably needs to seriously reevaluate their understanding of vehicles...

Because you agreed to the covenants. But I don't think most people fully appreciate what they are agreeing to at the time. All they see is the nice house in the nice neighborhood. Something strict covenants do encourage...

is there any actual evidence that they really do provide nicer houses and neighborhoods? seems to me that they are relatively new things, and located mainly in new(ish) developments. so its more like the houses and neighborhoods are 'nice' because they haven't been lived in yet.

And people wonder why GM is going bankrupt...

*cries*

*cries*

Tell me about it. All those closures hit here as well.

Actually, anyone who considers a Hummer to be superior to an F-150 probably needs to seriously reevaluate their understanding of vehicles...
It's inferior to pretty much anything somewhat modern. If H1 had its strong points (but otherwise is total crap), H2 is purely a bling car. Any modern large SUV beats it by all points.

Hummer road test scores (http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2003-hummer-h2-1.htm)
Ford F150 road test scores (http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2002-ford-f-150-1.htm) (see long cab versions)
Toyota Land Cruiser road test scores (http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2002-toyota-land-cruiser-1.htm)

Off the road: Hummer H2 is among real off-road SUV, but nothing out of the ordinary, its off-road reputation all comes from the H1. Might beat the road F150, but not Land Cruiser, Pajero, Land Rover or other actual off-road machines.

Towing capacity: (http://www.cars.com/go/crp/buyingGuides/articles/2005pickupTowing.jsp)
Hummer only manages 7,000 pounds, Land Cruiser and Ford F-150 can tow over 9,000. Real towing-oriented ones like Ford F-250 and F-350 reach 16,000-19,000.

Same issues with the rest. Reliability: Nothing special, it's a Tahoe. Interior: Cheap and poor quality. Utility: See the road test, poor. Generally at best a mediocre vehicle.



Actually, the reason people buy Hummers is because they are cheap. Yes, that's right. A Hummer H2 costs about $50,000, which is not cheap per se, but then you can get a tax deduction, and it's down to $35,000.
Other large SUV cost more, for instance the "modest" Land Cruiser is $70,000, Range Rover $80,000-$95,000, Mercedes G-class $85,000-$110,000.

So Hummers sell because they cost cheaper than most large SUV, but are perceived by the generic public as if they were the most expensive SUV. Like these cheap imports with plastic kits that copy Ferraris, but who these days knows how a Ferrari looks like - Hummer is much more visible. For people with a strong inferiority complex, forcing them to show off and try to look richer than they are, it's a no-brainer, even though it's crap.

It's inferior to pretty much anything somewhat modern. SNIPPBut.... if I don't drive a Hummer how will I let everyone know I have a huge penis?

I have a 400 ci V8 waiting for a Bronco or an old F-150 to hold it. Are 'Classic' cars (generally 30 + years old) OK for driveway parking? I want a '78 Bronco with a modest lift kit and a nice paint job. I could get better fuel economy than most new SUVs, and I could actually leave the paved roads if I wanted.

But.... if I don't drive a Hummer how will I let everyone know I have a huge penis?

i suggest getting a very large gun. also, a clever t-shirt.

In my area I had a choice between ghetto, white trash run down neighborhood, rural area, or HOA.

The only thing that keeps neighborhoods from being run down is HOA's.

Any of those sound better than an HOA. Hell, if I have a reliable vehicle I PREFER rural areas.

There are good points to HOAs - here they maintain all outdoor space, yard maintenance (except for any container gardens, which are the homeowners responsibility - oh, and must conform to HOA standards), painting, all external repairs, snow removal and street repairs. They also pay for water, trash disposal and sewers. For this I pay $169/mo. That's really pretty reasonable for the services. The problem is that HOAs quickly tend to become intrusive, petty dictators.

From all I've heard they START as intrusive petty dictators and get worse as they grow older.

Hey, be sure to not fall off that pedestal that you're sitting on. You wouldn't want to be down here with us commoners would ya?

Don't worry, I'll be careful :tongue:

Isn't there some sort of Freedom of Association laws? Or was that one basic human right overlooked in America?

There are sections of the HOA that are useful but then there are sections which are downright stupid, and the common thing with things like this is you get some bitch or wanker who has nothing better to do than to cause trouble and try and dictate the way they want it which usually means causing misery to other people.

I suspect the real reason for this is that the person doesn't like Fords and so wants them banned or is envious that this person has one which he can't and doesn't like it so they want to get rid of it.

The fact that they can foreclose on you is outright ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed.

Isn't there some sort of Freedom of Association laws? Or was that one basic human right overlooked in America?

actually, we just take freedom (of any sort) to mean that technically non-governmental agencies can be literally fascist as long as you sign a piece of paper.

i guess you could say we are a little unclear on the concept.

Any of those sound better than an HOA. Hell, if I have a reliable vehicle I PREFER rural areas.

Well, let me reword it, the choice is between a place where my children are likely to get shot and killed, a place where my children are likely to get raped and killed, or a place that's 2 hours away from help when my husband needs it which pretty much guarantees his death..........or a place where I have to put up white blinds and make sure I don't leave trash on my balcony.

One of these sounds better to me than the others.

HOAs seem like a nice idea, but poorly implemented. I especially don't like that part that renters have no say within HOAs. It's like antiquated democracies where land is a requirement to voting. No land, no vote. More land, more votes. Boo!

Secondly, I would that HOAs should have a consitution that strictly define their powers and responsibilities. ie. they can mandate that you have you roof kept in good repair, but not what type of car you are allowed to park on your driveway. With any change to the constitution having be passed by a referendum. That is no cliques sneaking through amendments to suit their own purposes.

Maybe this is the case already. I don't know.

HOAs seem like a nice idea, but poorly implemented. I especially don't like that part that renters have no say within HOAs. It's like antiquated democracies where land is a requirement to voting. No land, no vote. More land, more votes. Boo!

Secondly, I would that HOAs should have a consitution that strictly define their powers and responsibilities. ie. they can mandate that you have you roof kept in good repair, but not what type of car you are allowed to park on your driveway. With any change to the constitution having be passed by a referendum. That is no cliques sneaking through amendments to suit their own purposes.

Maybe this is the case already. I don't know.

It depends on how the thing is set up. You should read and understand before you agree to it.

HOAs seem like a nice idea, but poorly implemented. I especially don't like that part that renters have no say within HOAs. It's like antiquated democracies where land is a requirement to voting. No land, no vote. More land, more votes. Boo!

Secondly, I would that HOAs should have a consitution that strictly define their powers and responsibilities. ie. they can mandate that you have you roof kept in good repair, but not what type of car you are allowed to park on your driveway. With any change to the constitution having be passed by a referendum. That is no cliques sneaking through amendments to suit their own purposes.

Maybe this is the case already. I don't know.

the problem is that right now, they can be set up almost any way the developer chooses, outside of a few things that are specifically prohibited - you can't come out and say "no black people!" in the by-laws, for example.

it would be fairly easy to create non-tyrannical forms of community self-management, and trivially easy to create ones that are at least less so. but it doesn't seem to happen, which i think tells us something of the motivations at work (or perhaps just the lazy biases of the originators). effectively, the whole thing is mainly intended as an end-run around liberty disguised as democratic rule.

plus its sort of like an object lesson in part of what is wrong with propertarian theories of freedom.

I would park my Jeep (http://www.youdontevenrealize.com/pictures/jeep/jeep5.jpg) or truck in the driveway and say fuck them lol, Leeve the mud on it and all.

That being said I can see how some of the benifits of a HA are attractive to some. Specially older individuals or thoes without the time for property maintinance. (a big deal with all the snow removal up here) but the unreasonable restrictions they place on freedoms bugs me

The idea that you own your own home but have unreasonable limits placed on what is done to it and how it looks bugs me

But.... if I don't drive a Hummer how will I let everyone know I have a tiny penis?

Fixed. :D

is there any actual evidence that they really do provide nicer houses and neighborhoods? seems to me that they are relatively new things, and located mainly in new(ish) developments. so its more like the houses and neighborhoods are 'nice' because they haven't been lived in yet.

Tell me how to quantify something like 'nicer'... I was thinking about the older areas and the relative 'niceness' compared to newer neighborhoods.

Around here, protective covenants started maybe 30+ years ago. Those subdivisions seem to be more desirable than the ones with the junk heaps in the driveways (not a pickup, necessarily) and the unkept yards. It's a subjective sort of thing, but most new and pricey subdivisions seem to be governed by the same sorts of rules.

Again, I think it does force owners to make the repairs and do the maintenance that makes the houses age nicely. One other side benefit of a good HOA is that you can be more united when you have to fight a zoning rule that would adversely affect your property.

HOAs seem like a nice idea, but poorly implemented. I especially don't like that part that renters have no say within HOAs. It's like antiquated democracies where land is a requirement to voting. No land, no vote. More land, more votes. Boo!

Secondly, I would that HOAs should have a consitution that strictly define their powers and responsibilities. ie. they can mandate that you have you roof kept in good repair, but not what type of car you are allowed to park on your driveway. With any change to the constitution having be passed by a referendum. That is no cliques sneaking through amendments to suit their own purposes.

Maybe this is the case already. I don't know.
The covenants that I'm familiar with are pretty explicit about can/cannot do sorts of things. These were established by the builder when it created the subdivision and are usually in force for 20 or more years. There is a point where the HOA can renew or reject them and the HOA can make changes. Clearly the need is for a good HOA.

Those subdivisions seem to be more desirable than the ones with the junk heaps in the driveways (not a pickup, necessarily) and the unkept yards. It's a subjective sort of thing, but most new and pricey subdivisions seem to be governed by the same sorts of rules.
This makes me so happy that I don't live in a pricey, upper-class and snobby neighborhood. I don't get people who try to live in a more pricey place than they can easily afford.

I personally rather live where land is cheap, which I find great, since then you can have more (well, really it's my dad's house, but I fully agree with his choice and reasoning). The very edge of an exurb, bordering a forest, may not look the nicest, but no one stops you from making your part look nice. Not a rich place, but a lot of ex-military and just conservative guys, so I'll never be outed whether I earn less or more. No "rich only" filtering, but everyone knows crime will be dealt with decisively, with everyone's full support.
There are far more positive sides to being free of HOAs than to having one. You put up with what I do, I put up what you do, it's a great exchange.
I can turn the music all the way up, and no one will come complaining, in exchange I'll just shut my windows when they're hammering a rusty truck chassis. I can park whatever I want, you can park whatever you want, even beaten or broken. Accept the others' needs, and have them accept yours. Isn't HOA-free life great?

Plus, again about living in a pricey place, do you really need it? Does it really feel better to look like a fool, cranking up your Ford and looking at Lexuses passing by, than to drive away in a Lexus while others are cranking up their Fords? Wealth is a subjective thing - just don't try to fit in where you can't afford, and you'll live great with any income.

HOAs seem to enable petty dictators, but on the other hand, nosy interfering assholes predate and exist independently of HOAs. An influx of rich, childless, summer people basically made my hometown unlivable in the name of "increasing property values," and they didn't need an HOA to do so. (Nor would an HOA have been able to stop them, I think.)

You'd almost think Benjamin Franklin was actually warning people about the rise of Homeowners' Associations.

When I owned a house in California, with no HOA, I had a $1200/mo mortgage, $110/mo for the lawn guy (who also weeded, fertilized, maintained my irrigation system and generally cleaned around the yard), plus water, disposal and utilities. This was in a transitional neighborhood, so it was ethnically very diverse. I also had the neighborhood snoop who, I suspect, poisoned my dog because she didn't like dogs and who left poorly written, ungrammatical notes in my mailbox if she didn't like something about my yard. When I mentioned that I was planning on xeriscaping my yard, she got upset and told me she wouldn't tolerate weeds in "her neighborhood." She was the neighborhood watch.

In Colorado Springs, I own a townhome in a decent neighborhood (which is about as ethnically diverse as the rest of the Springs). I have no mortgage payment, no worries about maintenance (at my age and with my income, this is actually a relief), a small HOA fee and - the neighborhood snoop - who, at least, doesn't poison dogs and who doesn't leave misspelled notes on my doorstep.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I could ignore the neighborhood snoop in California, but couldn't avoid the costs of living there. I can't ignore the neighborhood snoop or relative lack of privacy here, but the costs are much lower. for Vault 10, an HOA doesn't mean the place is pricy, upper class or snobby it just means that the place, if properly run, is neatly kept and relatively safe. And, frankly, for a retired person, it's a good compromise. My initial observation, that HOAs can be intrusive, arbitrary and more than a little silly in the rules they enforce, still holds, though.

I have a friend who used to live in an HOA, but they got rather oppressive so he went and bought a nicer house in great neighborhood. I think that a neighborhood without an HOA can be just as good if not better than one with an HOA. Like the one I live in.
On Hummers the first one was ok, only because it still had some military roots, but after that well....

When I owned a house in California, with no HOA, I had a $1200/mo mortgage, $110/mo for the lawn guy (who also weeded, fertilized, maintained my irrigation system and generally cleaned around the yard), plus water, disposal and utilities. This was in a transitional neighborhood, so it was ethnically very diverse. I also had the neighborhood snoop who, I suspect, poisoned my dog because she didn't like dogs and who left poorly written, ungrammatical notes in my mailbox if she didn't like something about my yard. When I mentioned that I was planning on xeriscaping my yard, she got upset and told me she wouldn't tolerate weeds in "her neighborhood." She was the neighborhood watch.

In Colorado Springs, I own a townhome in a decent neighborhood (which is about as ethnically diverse as the rest of the Springs). I have no mortgage payment, no worries about maintenance (at my age and with my income, this is actually a relief), a small HOA fee and - the neighborhood snoop - who, at least, doesn't poison dogs and who doesn't leave misspelled notes on my doorstep.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I could ignore the neighborhood snoop in California, but couldn't avoid the costs of living there. I can't ignore the neighborhood snoop or relative lack of privacy here, but the costs are much lower. for Vault 10, an HOA doesn't mean the place is pricy, upper class or snobby it just means that the place, if properly run, is neatly kept and relatively safe. And, frankly, for a retired person, it's a good compromise. My initial observation, that HOAs can be intrusive, arbitrary and more than a little silly in the rules they enforce, still holds, though.
1. You think she poisoned your dog? What kind of person would do that? Was it lethal, or just kind of a Throw-up-all-over-the-carpet thing?

2. She objected to your lawn being made a bit cheaper, and a little more filled with local plants?:confused:

Fuck HOA's. Live in the country.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/0815081457.jpg ( my Family's driveway )

Living in the country is great. You can have a fire, you can go out and have a BBQ, you can play music loud. You can work on your cars, you can do whatever you want and no one bothers you.

Fuck HOA's. Live in the country.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/0815081457.jpg ( my Family's driveway )

Living in the country is great. You can have a fire, you can go out and have a BBQ, you can play music loud. You can work on your cars, you can do whatever you want and no one bothers you.

For now, that is...

Nice place. I personally prefer more trees and mountains in my back yard, but I am seriously considering a move to somewhere north of Duluth MN. Lake Superior would be an acceptable substitute for mountains, I think.

For now, that is...

Nice place. I personally prefer more trees and mountains in my back yard, but I am seriously considering a move to somewhere north of Duluth MN. Lake Superior would be an acceptable substitute for mountains, I think.

So looking along the shore?

I have always been more a fan of where my family is from, the Virginia MN aria ... hilly and lots of trees

If there was high level IT work for me to do in the area I would do it

Fuck HOA's. Live in the country.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/0815081457.jpg ( my Family's driveway )

Living in the country is great. You can have a fire, you can go out and have a BBQ, you can play music loud. You can work on your cars, you can do whatever you want and no one bothers you.
is that thing PAVED?

For now, that is...

Nice place. I personally prefer more trees and mountains in my back yard, but I am seriously considering a move to somewhere north of Duluth MN. Lake Superior would be an acceptable substitute for mountains, I think.

Eh, its Western PA, so the entire state is a bigass hill. With smaller hills on top of it :D

Yeah, thats the guest house at the end, I can't wait to move out and get a place out in the same area ( college has to come 1st ).

Fuck living in the city. Theres plenty of room out in the country.

God i hate those Associations...

It should just be against the law to price property based on neighbors...

Then thered be none of this oppression..fuckers...

1. You think she poisoned your dog? What kind of person would do that? Was it lethal, or just kind of a Throw-up-all-over-the-carpet thing?

2. She objected to your lawn being made a bit cheaper, and a little more filled with local plants?:confused:

1. She killed my dog.

2. According to her, native plants are weeds. The only acceptable form of garden is one full of high maintenance plants that can't survive without constant nurturing and tons of money. Never mind that the native plants of the area were attractive, provided shade and required little to no maintenance or money.

is that thing PAVED?

Nah, its gravel up until the bottom of that hill, then its paved. Getting up that thing in the winter is a bitch. Around the house to the main house is even worse in the winter, my freind wrecked his car trying to go around it on ice :lol:

but its gotta be great on sledding days!

we had a nice long driveway like that when i was a kid. we would get up quite a speed down the hill until we shot out into the paved street and ground to a stop in a mass of sparks.

Nah, its gravel up until the bottom of that hill, then its paved. Getting up that thing in the winter is a bitch. Around the house to the main house is even worse in the winter, my freind wrecked his car trying to go around it on ice :lol:

Yeah, I've had some bad experiences with gravel. They're sure easier to maintain and I think they look better in rural areas, but they're hell in the winter.

Yikes, not for me. I like being able to walk out my door onto a train, walk to the museum, cinema, uni, restaurants.... and work, yeah the last one maybe not so good. I want it all on my doorstep, and a cab to drop me home afterward :D

1. She killed my dog.

2. According to her, native plants are weeds. The only acceptable form of garden is one full of high maintenance plants that can't survive without constant nurturing and tons of money. Never mind that the native plants of the area were attractive, provided shade and required little to no maintenance or money.


Wow she is quite the bitch, If I were you I would start commenting about how her houde looks, like oh that garden is ugly you have to change all of it or I will bring it up in the next meeting. Or I would vandalize her house in the middle of the night. But thats just me. I would probably do the latter of the 2.

Could someone explain to me how HOAs start or how they can force home owners to join them.

Wow she is quite the bitch, If I were you I would start commenting about how her houde looks, like oh that garden is ugly you have to change all of it or I will bring it up in the next meeting. Or I would vandalize her house in the middle of the night. But thats just me. I would probably do the latter of the 2.

Could someone explain to me how HOAs start or how they can force home owners to join them.

1. You didn't read previous posts of mine or you would have known that this was where I used to live, and there was no HOA.

2. HOAs start because a developer builds a what he/she hopes will be a planned community. There are usually community services involved, like a pool or a clubhouse, or at least community maintenance of all exterior spaces. These are usually condominiums, townhomes or PUDs (planned unit developments). The HOA is supposed to be a coordinating body consisting of homeowners in the community - they agree on rules for the supposed good of the community (community homeowners are invited to the meetings - they rarely attend - and are supposed to be able to comment and vote on the rules) and set up fees to support the HOA's activities.

Tell me how to quantify something like 'nicer'...

i'd settle for a straight up property value comparison between properties in two developments built at the same time(ish) whose key original difference was whether there was a bunch of fascist wannabees running around enforcing ridiculous rules or not. even better if we could get a bunch of them from various parts of the country and such.

One other side benefit of a good HOA is that you can be more united when you have to fight a zoning rule that would adversely affect your property.

yeah, though that could be achieved with a much more liberty friendly organization than that of the hoa system.

They can fine me, and if I don't pay then they can put a lien on my property and if I end up owing them too much they can foreclose.



There is a big list of "rules" that must be updated with new rules, the board members make up the rules, if you go to the board meetings you can whine and complain about the rules but it might not change much. About 80% of my community doesn't go to the board meetings because they are "boring" so when new rules come up for discussion they aren't there to discuss. Mostly the busybodies (and people like me....) show up to the meetings, so it's kinda like a ruling class. I've been able to whine enough to get some "new rules" shot down.

Here's my biggest problem with the HOA meetings (at least in my area). These meetings are held once a month and work on a rotating schedule. My wife and I both work at least 60 and up to 70 hours a week. We have no time to go to a homeowners meeting, and could not make them even if we wanted to.

Most meetings are at 7pm during the week. I work days and much of the nights. My wife commutes to NYC and doesn't get home until 8 pm. We have no voice in the decisions that are made. The people who do get a voice are the senior citizens and housewives who have shit else to do but complain about everyone else. When I did have a major issue I took the intentionally took that day off to go. In a community of 12 buildings there were at most 20 people there. I found people who I wouldn't trust to run my household budget running what amounts to a small corporation. The complain about dog shit, people walking in high heals late at night (it's a condo complex), dogs barking, couples who have sex late at night, and people who play music late a night. When they are asked what late at night was they replied, "after 8pm." Why should old folks and busy-bodies get to make rules for people who cannot make it because they are working for a Fing living? That's my rant.

Here's my biggest problem with the HOA meetings (at least in my area). These meetings are held once a month and work on a rotating schedule. My wife and I both work at least 60 and up to 70 hours a week. We have no time to go to a homeowners meeting, and could not make them even if we wanted to.

Most meetings are at 7pm during the week. I work days and much of the nights. My wife commutes to NYC and doesn't get home until 8 pm. We have no voice in the decisions that are made. The people who do get a voice are the senior citizens and housewives who have shit else to do but complain about everyone else. When I did have a major issue I took the intentionally took that day off to go. In a community of 12 buildings there were at most 20 people there. I found people who I wouldn't trust to run my household budget running what amounts to a small corporation. The complain about dog shit, people walking in high heals late at night (it's a condo complex), dogs barking, couples who have sex late at night, and people who play music late a night. When they are asked what late at night was they replied, "after 8pm." Why should old folks and busy-bodies get to make rules for people who cannot make it because they are working for a Fing living? That's my rant.

Sounds about right. Mine are at 7pm-9pm on the second Tuesday of the month. We have about 8 buildings and about 4 people other than the board show up. Most of them being dimwits and busybodies. (okay, I'm a busybody... I don't want dog shit on the stairs )

Our financial lady is teh suck. I'm campaigning to take it over. She has no knowledge of anything and should die soon (that's not a threat, she's literally like 3000 years old)

Here pick-ups of all kinds are considered pretty common, and are generally only used by lower class people because they look "tough" and tradesmen (builders and the like, for shifting building supplies). The rules are a bit harsh, but they do kind of have a point. If I lived in a decent area, I wouldn't want one parked nearby either.

A nicely equipped 2009 Ford F-150 Lariat will run you anywhere from 35-40k. This is hardly for the lower class. Sure you could buy a base model with no 4x4 (why bother even having a truck?) for about 20k. This is still not kia cheap.

...any poor people within my sight

cake, anyone?

My part of town has a median home price of 550k. I'd still let someone park a 1992 Ford F150 in my lot.

In some states they can foreclose on your home. Like in my state. They can foreclose on you if you owe even as little as $2K in back fees and fines.

This is why I have a great lawyer. We are currently in litigation with our FOA over a fee we paid that they don't have record of. We have the documentation and canceled checks to prove payment. They are so F'd and will have to wind up settling. Suing my HOA is like suing myself and I tried to avoid it. They forced my hand and now they are probably going to wind up paying my dues for a year or two. They think because I'm young I'll just lay down for them. They are sadly mistaken.

There are good points to HOAs - here they maintain all outdoor space, yard maintenance (except for any container gardens, which are the homeowners responsibility - oh, and must conform to HOA standards), painting, all external repairs, snow removal and street repairs. They also pay for water, trash disposal and sewers. For this I pay $169/mo. That's really pretty reasonable for the services. The problem is that HOAs quickly tend to become intrusive, petty dictators.

Yeah, they charge us 290 here. I do enjoy that they pay for our gas heat in the winter because we're part of a cooperative community in that regard.

Here's my biggest problem with the HOA meetings (at least in my area). These meetings are held once a month and work on a rotating schedule. My wife and I both work at least 60 and up to 70 hours a week. We have no time to go to a homeowners meeting, and could not make them even if we wanted to.

Most meetings are at 7pm during the week. I work days and much of the nights. My wife commutes to NYC and doesn't get home until 8 pm. We have no voice in the decisions that are made. The people who do get a voice are the senior citizens and housewives who have shit else to do but complain about everyone else. When I did have a major issue I took the intentionally took that day off to go. In a community of 12 buildings there were at most 20 people there. I found people who I wouldn't trust to run my household budget running what amounts to a small corporation. The complain about dog shit, people walking in high heals late at night (it's a condo complex), dogs barking, couples who have sex late at night, and people who play music late a night. When they are asked what late at night was they replied, "after 8pm." Why should old folks and busy-bodies get to make rules for people who cannot make it because they are working for a Fing living? That's my rant.

You shouldn't be so noisy when having sex. :wink:

Really WTF? There are some benefits of having an HOA primarily having people pay to maintain the pool, gardens, gym etc.

But then to say oh you can only paint your house a certain colour, you can only have so many non residents in your house at a time, you can only have a BBQ between 2-3pm on Sundays is ridiculous and while I haven't had to live in an HOA (as there is no such thing in Australia, however many suburbs are still nice, presentable and safe) I have been in organisations where you get a few busybodies who some how manage to get on the committee and screw the place over, one even folded because so many people left because of the changes.

Ok, perhaps I'm being rural here, but why do your neighbors get to dictate what you use your property for?

It's completely abhorrent that you can't even park your own car in your own driveway. There are more things like this around the states too. There are associations that won't let you fly an American flag on your house even. Homeowners associations and co-op boards are evil!!!

You shouldn't be so noisy when having sex. :wink:

If she (or he if your tastes run that way) isn't loud you're doing it wrong. :p

It's completely abhorrent that you can't even park your own car in your own driveway. There are more things like this around the states too. There are associations that won't let you fly an American flag on your house even. Homeowners associations and co-op boards are evil!!!

Again, Benjamin Franklin was really warning people about HOAs.

A nicely equipped 2009 Ford F-150 Lariat will run you anywhere from 35-40k. This is hardly for the lower class. Sure you could buy a base model with no 4x4 (why bother even having a truck?) for about 20k. This is still not kia cheap.

Agreed.

Well, the guy who lives a few miles down has a 2008 F450 King Ranch, ran about 75,000.

Low class car right?

We have a F350 Lariat, which is used to tow the drag cars (2 sub 10 second cars, so about 90k of car in there )

Its not cheap, and pickups are not for poor people :P, ever notice a trailer full of race cars, RV or boat behind them?

I don't drive one, but I love driving ours. You can run people over :D

If she (or he if your tastes run that way) isn't loud you're doing it wrong. :p

What if your partner is a mute? :p

I guess I don't really mind since I have blinds. The moment the community starts looking trashy like having aluminum foil in the windows or sheets hung up then my property value goes down.

They tell people to pick up their dog shit, and where my car can be parked (reserved parking) and where it can't be parked (in the fire lane) and what I can't have on my patio (indoor furniture) and what I can't do after 11pm at night (sex orgies in the court yard) etc.

Shit. Land of the free huh!;)

Homeowners associations and co-op boards are evil!!!

the real problem is they are all too often set up by elitist land-speculating developer assholes, as effectively dictatorships with even more pathetic sham democracies than the country itself practices, are not required to allow a number of essential liberties, do not have their powers strictly limited to anywhere near a reasonable extent, and are treated as more or less immune to actual democratic interventions in too many cases.

the basic problem is that process and structure are very important to making good collective self-management possible, and they almost uniformly are terrible with both.

Yeah, they charge us 290 here. I do enjoy that they pay for our gas heat in the winter because we're part of a cooperative community in that regard.

Mind if I ask what state you are in? We pay $261, but they pay for water, gas, landscaping, private security, clubhouse and a pool. I was always under the assumption that I was paying too damn much. Listening to the really old lady give the financial report I get the feeling she's not balancing things properly and thus misspending money.

Shit. Land of the free huh!;)

I was free to buy a condo elsewhere. ;)

Mind if I ask what state you are in? We pay $261, but they pay for water, gas, landscaping, private security, clubhouse and a pool. I was always under the assumption that I was paying too damn much. Listening to the really old lady give the financial report I get the feeling she's not balancing things properly and thus misspending money.

My financial chair (1 old bag) sucks too. I live in the suburbs of NYC in NJ. They are actually going to be raising them to 300 soon. They pay for water/sewage, gas/cooking gas(all year for cooking) in the winter(mild winters in NJ lately so wtf)landscaping, the pool (the last 2 summers it was closed for half of the season because they suck at hiring pool conmpanies) snow removal (once again note winters and sometimes it is not for two fricken days) and garbage. No clubhouse and no security. My security system comprises of a Sig with laser sights kept in the nightstand next to the bed. I have no children so no worry of the little tikes playing with it.

My financial chair (1 old bag) sucks too. I live in the suburbs of NYC in NJ. They are actually going to be raising them to 300 soon. They pay for water/sewage, gas/cooking gas(all year for cooking) in the winter(mild winters in NJ lately so wtf)landscaping, the pool (the last 2 summers it was closed for half of the season because they suck at hiring pool conmpanies) snow removal (once again note winters and sometimes it is not for two fricken days) and garbage. No clubhouse and no security. My security system comprises of a Sig with laser sights kept in the nightstand next to the bed. I have no children so no worry of the little tikes playing with it.

There are at least 3 condos that owe us more than 12K in fees/fines that she "doesn't know how to collect" but then my friends owed only 40 and she put a lien on their condo.......

I think she's racist.

My financial chair (1 old bag) sucks too. I live in the suburbs of NYC in NJ. They are actually going to be raising them to 300 soon. They pay for water/sewage, gas/cooking gas(all year for cooking) in the winter(mild winters in NJ lately so wtf)landscaping, the pool (the last 2 summers it was closed for half of the season because they suck at hiring pool conmpanies) snow removal (once again note winters and sometimes it is not for two fricken days) and garbage. No clubhouse and no security. My security system comprises of a Sig with laser sights kept in the nightstand next to the bed. I have no children so no worry of the little tikes playing with it.

Time to move to the country. I bring this pic up again.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/0815081457.jpg

70 Aces, no one gives a fuck what you do out in the country. And I'm only about 45 mins from the city.

Time to move to the country. I bring this pic up again.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/0815081457.jpg

70 Aces, no one gives a fuck what you do out in the country. And I'm only about 45 mins from the city.

My husband would die in the time it took to get to a hospital.

Not everyone can live in the country, my city has proven that, we keep incorporating small towns as the city expands.

A nicely equipped 2009 Ford F-150 Lariat will run you anywhere from 35-40k. This is hardly for the lower class. Sure you could buy a base model with no 4x4 (why bother even having a truck?) for about 20k. This is still not kia cheap.

Being lower class doens't mean you don't have (or at least, don't spend) money. A millionaire can still be poorly educated, uncultured and badly spoken chavs, as the beckham family show us everyday.

Meanwhile, many people who don't have money borrow ot buy things they really don't need. A family in my area, all of whom are unemployed, keep two Mercedes with tasteful bodykits, bling hubcaps and four drainpipes coming out the back.

My husband would die in the time it took to get to a hospital.

Not everyone can live in the country, my city has proven that, we keep incorporating small towns as the city expands.

That's why I like living in the city. The neighbors watch the kids when they play in the street, I can walk pretty much everywhere, and the hospital with kickass ER staff is 6 blocks away. The neighbors are happy enough that we aren't gangbangers that they don't care if we play loud music. It's not for everyone but it does have its advantages.

Being lower class doens't mean you don't have (or at least, don't spend) money. A millionaire can still be poorly educated, uncultured and badly spoken chavs, as the beckham family show us everyday.

Meanwhile, many people who don't have money borrow ot buy things they really don't need. A family in my area, all of whom are unemployed, keep two Mercedes with tasteful bodykits, bling hubcaps and four drainpipes coming out the back.

I'm confused here. A millionare is not lower class by any scale. Unless you're making a value judgment of them as an individual. This all has nothing to do with buying an F150. Sure people can borrow money, but how much do you think a bank is giving them with very little income? Maybe before the S&L problems they could get a loan, but the regulations are strict now. A family with poor credit would porbably wind up paying 12.99% on a loan. a 25k vehicle would cost 270.25/mo just in interest. I can't make a judgment about the family in your town. I'm sure there must be something else to it there. You're deluded if you think banks will lend $ for two benzos to someone without income.

Being lower class doens't mean you don't have (or at least, don't spend) money. A millionaire can still be poorly educated, uncultured and badly spoken chavs, as the beckham family show us everyday.

Meanwhile, many people who don't have money borrow ot buy things they really don't need. A family in my area, all of whom are unemployed, keep two Mercedes with tasteful bodykits, bling hubcaps and four drainpipes coming out the back.

So, you judge people on the brand of car they drive?

Hence my father. He has a SL550. But normally you'll see him behind the wheel of his Ford Pickup.

Must make him trash right?

So, you judge people on the brand of car they drive?

Hence my father. He has a SL550. But normally you'll see him behind the wheel of his Ford Pickup.

Must make him trash right?

No, you're only trash if you drive a Chevy or a Dodge. The Blue Oval transcends class.

*runs from fans of the bowtie and the ram*

Remember that the prices quoted for pickups reflect only new models. Those 5-10 years old are the ones owned more by the less wealthy for work trucks and such. Also, buying a 30K pickup for business use would probably be a sweet tax writeoff. A modest contracting business would almost make up the cost of the vehicle that way.

No, you're only trash if you drive a Chevy or a Dodge. The Blue Oval transcends class.

*runs from fans of the bowtie and the ram*
Pfft GMC/Chev Pwnes Ford in larger trucks

Not that I mind the F350/250 I have spent a long time behind the wheel of one and they have a great top end tow rating but with any grade the handling was so much better when I got my GMC 2500HD that I became a fan.

As far as looks I like the style of both Chev/GMC and Ford but only in the larger fords. The F150 is only STARTING to come around to having something that looks halfway decent

As for dodge I wont argue I dont like driving them with loads and don't like the looks so no argument here

Liuzzo I imagine the people who don't like noise after 8pm are a little something like this.

It starts 19 seconds in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDrLdfgx3CQ&feature=related

Pfft GMC/Chev Pwnes Ford in larger trucks

Not that I mind the F350/250 I have spent a long time behind the wheel of one and they have a great top end tow rating but with any grade the handling was so much better when I got my GMC 2500HD that I became a fan.

As far as looks I like the style of both Chev/GMC and Ford but only in the larger fords. The F150 is only STARTING to come around to having something that looks halfway decent

As for dodge I wont argue I dont like driving them with loads and don't like the looks so no argument here

I'm a big Ford guy, we have had alot of trucks ( Hell, we own 12 cars at the moment ).

Right now its a 08 F350 Lariat Dually with the V10 Triton, Power everything, full leather, sat nav, nice as hell, with the crew cab.

We had a 3500HD for awhile, it wasnt bad but I was not a huge fan.

We use the Ford to tow around the Race trailer, which clocks in at 19,400 pounds.

I'm not joking when I say that you cant feel it at 75mph on the highway, its like your driving with nothing on the back.

Built ford tough!

Wonder what they'd say if I lived in that kind of neighboorhood, and parked one of these (http://www.gaz59037a.ru/) on the driveway...


Yes, these are street legal in Russia xD

I wouldn't dream of living in the HOA-from-hell neighborhoods described in this thread.

Time to move to the country. I bring this pic up again.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q173/NCCSean/0815081457.jpg

70 Aces, no one gives a fuck what you do out in the country. And I'm only about 45 mins from the city.I'm with you on this idea. Just put that in Florida instead (I hate winter!), and it's perfect.

if you're talking about cars, lincon IS ford! but then, if you're talking about cars, JUST NO(period)!

Wonder what they'd say if I lived in that kind of neighboorhood, and parked one of these (http://www.gaz59037a.ru/) on the driveway...


Yes, these are street legal in Russia xD

Where can I get one of these?