NationStates Jolt Archive

Specifically referencing the culture of the '80s action/toy lines like: What made He-Man awesome? Optimus Prime? Lion-O?

(Yes I've been surfing You Tube.)

What element, above all others, defined them as the heroic good guy?

I have my opinion. What's yours?

(Poll inc)

The opposite of what makes a bad guy bad.

The opposite of what makes a bad guy bad.

I disagree. Some of the best bad guys have many good guy qualities. Magneto for instance. *nod*

His honor, and his willingness to stand up and fight for what he believes in.

(Which is why sometimes the "villain" is also a good guy.)

I disagree. Some of the best bad guys have many good guy qualities. Magneto for instance. *nod*

The whole "bad guys are good guys with a different point of view" phenomena only came into play in the early 90s. We're talking 80s, where bad guys were... bad.

Good guys are good because they're too lazy to try and take over the world. A lot more planning goes into being a bad guy.

Because the writers said they were.

What I liked best were the leaders who did not compromise their honor, and led by that example. My favorite episodes of the tv shows or movies featuring these characters were the ones where the good guy was tempted to take a moral shortcut or do a little evil to accomplish good. They did not compromise themselves, drawing upon their inner strength to get through.

What I liked best were the leaders who did not compromise their honor, and led by that example. My favorite episodes of the tv shows or movies featuring these characters were the ones where the good guy was tempted to take a moral shortcut or do a little evil to accomplish good. They did not compromise themselves, drawing upon their inner strength to get through.

So you have a preference for more typical heroes than anti-heroes - more Luke Skywalker than Han Solo?

What I liked best were the leaders who did not compromise their honor, and led by that example. My favorite episodes of the tv shows or movies featuring these characters were the ones where the good guy was tempted to take a moral shortcut or do a little evil to accomplish good. They did not compromise themselves, drawing upon their inner strength to get through.

The problem with that is, of course, the obvious. They're fiction. They had no honor to compromise. No moral question to evaluate. No ethical dilemma to ponder than rise above. No inner strength to rely upon.

While it might be a worthwhile template, it's not like they could actually fail.

So you have a preference for more typical heroes than anti-heroes - more Luke Skywalker than Han Solo?

Well it's funny you ask that, because I much prefer Han Solo over Luke Skywalker.

I think it's because what I like even more than the hero who was always perfect, is the hero who has found redemption, which is how I see Han Solo. he want from a smuggler, scoundrel, creep, killer (Yes, he shot Greedo first) and rose to something bigger and better, and became General Solo, Leader, friend, commander, and hero.

He had always had that within him, you see. Remember that Solo was an Imperial Officer, but thew that away when he sacrificed his career to save an enslaved Wookie...

I always thought the hero was the one who was the last standing at the end of the day. Be that person or persons good or bad, they are the ones who lasted and won the day.

The problem with that is, of course, the obvious. They're fiction. They had no honor to compromise. No moral question to evaluate. No ethical dilemma to ponder than rise above. No inner strength to rely upon.

While it might be a worthwhile template, it's not like they could actually fail.

I think the template is what's important... Sure, for the purpose of the story it's not like Optimus Prime would ever become a Decepticon or Captian Kirk would turn the Enterprise over to the Klingons, but the template itself is what provides the inspiration, the idea that while the story is fiction and the characters don't exist, they symbolize things and events that have an analog in reality, and that template can be an inspiration of how to deal with real situations.

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." - Optimus Prime

I bet any of us could easily think of a few examples of real life situations where this sort of sentiment applies.

I have my opinion. What's yours?

(Poll inc)

They beat up/kill/mangle/thwart/<insert a similar verb here> the bad guys.

When you define a group as good guys, it's beating up the guys who oppose them that makes them good. :p

the good guy is on the right side and does not waver from that side.

the bad guy may do the same but since hes on the wrong side, hes not the hero.

in real life a hero is someone who does what is right no matter how hard it is to do it.

the most heroic real life thing that comes to mind is when john mccain refused early release from the north vietnamese prison camp. i cannot imagine being able to do that.

in most stories the hero is the hero because the story says he is. in a poorly written book he is a 2 dimensional character who never has a problem doing the right thing.

What element, above all others, defined them as the heroic good guy?

I have my opinion. What's yours?
His awesome weapon
No. In Die Another Day, the bad guys have the cooler weaponry, but they're clearly the bad guys.

Personal honor and values
Simply having honor and values does not define someone as heroic, but having the right values does.

Leadership
Ghengis Khan was a leader. Ghengis Khan burned cities to the ground. So no.

Popularity
Hitler was popular. No.

Cool voice
Two words: Darth Vader. So no.

Everybody else just sucked.
That would mean George W. Bush was a good guy. Obviously not.

Visuals
Agent Smith is damn well dressed. No.

Their sense of humor
The Joker is quite obviously evil. No.

Command of the Galactica
There are good people that didn't command the Galactica, so obviously no.

His awesome weapon
No. In Die Another Day, the bad guys have the cooler weaponry, but they're clearly the bad guys.

And in Star Wars. At least the original trilogy.
Personal honor and values
Simply having honor and values does not define someone as heroic, but having the right values does.

Agreed.
Leadership
Ghengis Khan was a leader. Ghengis Khan burned cities to the ground. So no.

Ghengis Khan stopped the endless amount of of Steppe warfare and Religious struggles within his territories. I say he's a hero.
Popularity
Hitler was popular. No.

What about those who believe Hitler WAS a hero?
Cool voice
Two words: Darth Vader. So no.

But in the end he turned from his ways, so it could be said that having a cool voice makes you want to be a hero.:D
Everybody else just sucked.
That would mean George W. Bush was a good guy. Obviously not.

Well, George Bush sucked too...
Visuals
Agent Smith is damn well dressed. No.

Can't argue with that.:D
Their sense of humor
The Joker is quite obviously evil. No.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh172/jthees/lolcats/Serious-Cat-Joker.jpg
Command of the Galactica
There are good people that didn't command the Galactica, so obviously no.
Don't know anything 'bout that.

Beating bad guys... that's what makes you good. If you beat, maim, maul, kill bad guys you are a good guy.

They have better aim than the bad guys.

They have better aim than the bad guys.
What about the A team?

What about the A team?
A band of mercenaries who left the army in disgrace after robbing a bank and then killing their C.O. in an attempt to cover it up?

Because the writers said they were.

Again, that didn't come into vogue until the 90's. Granted, John Carpenter made movies in the 80's, but the whole good vs. evil just being the letterhead for blue-collar evil versus white collar evil didn't really take off until the 90's.

My favorite candidate for worst offender is still John Carpenter's Vampires.

The good guy is a barrel-chested war veteran with a mysterious past, gravelly voice, and balls of steel with a big gun.

Oh, and he has a permanent five o'clock shadow. That's necessary for his sucess.

Specifically referencing the culture of the '80s action/toy lines like: What made He-Man awesome? Optimus Prime? Lion-O?

(Yes I've been surfing You Tube.)

What element, above all others, defined them as the heroic good guy?

I have my opinion. What's yours?

(Poll inc)

Values and honor. If said character lacks those but has everything else whats stopping him from using his/her powers for evil?

When a hero stands outlined in the sunset, his/her hair blows back from his/her face. When a villain stands in outline, the wind blows hair into his/her face, or swirls around chaotically. *nod*

I grew up watching the Thundercats. Back at the tender age of 3-6 or so, I loved them. Now I look back at them and wonder what my parents were putting in my cereal to make me watch that stuff. None of the characters have even a flicker of personality, except for Snarf, who I hated even as a toddler.

Of course, it's possible I was just fascinated by Cheetara's boobs.

Again, that didn't come into vogue until the 90's. Granted, John Carpenter made movies in the 80's, but the whole good vs. evil just being the letterhead for blue-collar evil versus white collar evil didn't really take off until the 90's.

My favorite candidate for worst offender is still John Carpenter's Vampires.

The good guy has to take care of annoying kids? What do I know, I was born in '93.

Of course, it's possible I was just fascinated by Cheetara's boobs.

^ this

A band of mercenaries who left the army in disgrace after robbing a bank and then killing their C.O. in an attempt to cover it up?

Erm... Uh.... LOOK! SHINY THINGS BEHIND YOU! *Runs away in shame*

No need to go into detail; just look up my profile ;)

Im gonna go with the leadership ability, Liono wouldnt be shit if he couldnt inspire loyalty...

If Leonardo didnt have good leadership skills, he'd be Donatello with a blue mask, lol...

I disagree. Some of the best bad guys have many good guy qualities. Magneto for instance. *nod*

Agreed!

http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Contrib/SciFi/Blakes7/blakes7.gif

The bad guys were bad, and the good guys are even worse!

Ghengis Khan stopped the endless amount of of Steppe warfare and Religious struggles within his territories. I say he's a hero.You'd be a bit less inclined to think so if you lived in a city that he reduced to rubble, as was his general routine when coming across permanent settlements.
What about those who believe Hitler WAS a hero?A lot of villains have goons that support them for non-monetary reasons.
But in the end he turned from his ways, so it could be said that having a cool voice makes you want to be a hero.:DAnother example is Kiefer Sutherland's character from Phone Booth.

No option for "None of the above"???

No option for "None of the above"???

There's my obligatory Battlestar Galactica joke option ;)

There's my obligatory Battlestar Galactica joke option ;)

and not even that is always heroic:

Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that

and not even that is always heroic:

Very true. Although I suppose if one really wanted to think of it as a heroic option one could go with the Lorne Greene Adama...