NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm pretty sure this has been done before but I'm gonna do it anyway.

so NSG, what do you think makes a man? And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

...lack of female genitals?

Seriously, remember that there are hermaphrodites...

well id have to go with being an adult and being male.

...lack of female genitals?

Seriously, remember that there are hermaphrodites...

I'm on about things like the stereotype of "being a man", and of the top of my head I can't remember what a hermaphrodite is...

Good lord - how difficult can it be....

Being able to chew tobacco and spit without it drooling down your chin!

well id have to go with being an adult and being male.

... -sigh-

This.

http://willmorgan.org/Robert_A_Heinlein-Jerry_Was_A_Man.htm

I'm thinking mostly water and carbon with calcium and lots more common and a few more rare elements.

Tattoos.
I hope someone gets the reference

Good lord - how difficult can it be....

Being able to chew tobacco and spit without it drooling down your chin!

Damn I thought it was being able to smoke! Damn Futurama...

Tattoos.
I hope someone gets the reference

I don't have a tattoo and I very much so doubt I will ever be getting one.

... -sigh-
no really, its sexist to suggest that to be a MAN you have to have a certain type of behavior.

I'm thinking mostly water and carbon with calcium and lots more common and a few more rare elements.

You need to get out more :p

... -wonders whether people get what I'm on about-

no really, its sexist to suggest that to be a MAN you have to have a certain type of behavior.

I know, but I want to know what people think makes a man in that respect, cause many people are brought up in a society where certain things are expected of man based on stereotypes and beliefs in masculinity.

I'm pretty sure this has been done before but I'm gonna do it anyway.

so NSG, what do you think makes a man? And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

Beards.

Unshaven-ness is next to Godliness.

Clean shaven-ness is next to Sataniness.

no really, its sexist to suggest that to be a MAN you have to have a certain type of behavior.
So if this thread was about what it takes to be human, would you no longer be adverse to giving a list qualities?

Oxygen
Carbon
Hydrogen
Nitrogen
Calcium
Phosphorus
Potassium
Sulfur
Sodium
Chlorine
Magnesium
Iron
Fluorine
Zinc
Silicon
Rubidium
Strontium
Bromine
Lead
Copper
Aluminium
Cadmium
Cerium
Barium
Tin
Titanium
Boron
Selenium
Nickel
Chromium
Manganese
Arsenic
Lithium
Mercury
Caesium
Molybdenum
Germanium
Cobalt
Antimony
Silver
Niobium
Zirconium
Lanthanum
Tellurium
Gallium
Yttrium
Bismuth
Thallium
Indium
Gold
Scandium
Tantalum
Vanadium
Thorium
Uranium
Samarium
Tungsten
Beryllium
Radium

All in varying proportions.

I think it has something to do with how many roads he's walked down.

There are far too many smart arses on NSG.

edit: oh, and I believe that would be 42 roads *joins ranks*

I'm on about things like the stereotype of "being a man", and of the top of my head I can't remember what a hermaphrodite is...

Someone with both male and female body parts. In virtually all cases, however, one or the two is sterile.

Well, I generally think of myself as a man, and I'm primarily made of peanut butter, fried eggs, liquor and cowardice.

I'm on about things like the stereotype of "being a man"

Wastes of time. A man is an adult human male, that's all.

Beards.

Unshaven-ness is next to Godliness.

Clean shaven-ness is next to Sataniness.

Damn and I shaved today :eek:

Damn and I shaved today :eek:

"Resist the devil, and he'll flee from you. Grow a beard, and pwn the devil."

I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible somewhere. :tongue:

You need to get out more :p

... -wonders whether people get what I'm on about-

Oh, we get it, all right. We just think it's pointless. You're looking for reinforcement of gender roles but too scared to just say what you mean. After exposing yourself as a racist in the "White Race a Minority by 2042" thread, I'm not surprised.

I think it has something to do with how many roads he's walked down.

Yes, but how many must he walk down before we can, objectively speaking, call him a man? Is the answer indeed blowing in the wind? And if it is, is it blowing with it or against it?

Wastes of time. A man is an adult human male, that's all.

I am on about what society expects from a man, a modern society - like in mexican culture they have a strong belief in masculinity.

Okay, I'll bite. This is according to the place, time and manner in which I'VE been raised. /disclaimer

I think a man understands, appreciates and takes responsibility for his actions, and his inaction. I think a man accepts that he is in control of his own life, though he can not control the world outside of him, and does the best he can to navigate his way through life staying true to his own beliefs and also understanding the way he affects others. I think he approaches the world with openness, honesty, dignity, pride and compassion, forgiving flaws in others and himself, doing the best he can though he knows he will make mistakes.

I think a man is true to his word, stands by what he thinks is right but always leaves his heart and mind open to new information and perspectives, admits when he's wrong, knows how to laugh, treats others with dignity and respect, works hard for the things that are important to him, and appreciates being alive.

Of course, I think all of these things are what make a woman, too.

I know, but I want to know what people think makes a man in that respect, cause many people are brought up in a society where certain things are expected of man based on stereotypes and beliefs in masculinity.

I'm afraid that fun and humorous banter is not allowed on NSG if you're being ever so slightly un-politically correct, since that just gives a lot of NSers an excuse to moan and get all uppity about something.

Oh, we get it, all right. We just think it's pointless. You're looking for reinforcement of gender roles but too scared to just say what you mean. After exposing yourself as a racist in the "White Race a Minority by 2042" thread, I'm not surprised.



Yes, but how many must he walk down before we can, objectively speaking, call him a man? Is the answer indeed blowing in the wind? And if it is, is it blowing with it or against it?

:confused:

I'm not looking to reinforce gender roles, I am trying to find out what people think about them...
And call me racist if you want but... I don't see how that makes it any different to talk to me ... Unless your going to be a ignorant bigot against "racist" people.

I think a man, as opposed to a boy

I agree with pretty much your whole post.

To finish your sentence for you: "has a beard."

I'm afraid that fun and humorous banter is not allowed on NSG if you're being ever so slightly un-politically correct, since that just gives a lot of NSers an excuse to moan and get all uppity about something.

I noticed... :(

Someone with both male and female body parts. In virtually all cases, however, one or the two is sterile.

Ah, thanks.

"Resist the devil, and he'll flee from you. Grow a beard, and pwn the devil."

I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible somewhere. :tongue:

But will it keep away the .... Super devil?!

I'm quiet sure the super devil is in the bible somewhere..

Oh and cookies for the person who knows my reference (The better question is, who on NSG doesn't? [probably a lot of people but yeah know])

What makes people conform to stereotypical gender roles? The tyranny of societal expectations, incessantly forced into children's heads from the moment they are born. Gender-deviant behaviour is discouraged, mocked and punished, slowly grinding down individuals who don't identify with the stereotypical role assigned to them and crushing their identities.

But will it keep away the .... Super devil?!

If it is a sactified beard, then I believe it would.

If your just have a moustache, any lesser demon won't even be fended off.

What makes people conform to stereotypical gender roles? The tyranny of societal expectations, incessantly forced into children's heads from the moment they are born. Gender-deviant behaviour is discouraged, mocked and punished, slowly grinding down individuals who don't identify with the stereotypical role assigned to them and crushing their identities.

Pretty much yeah.

I know, but I want to know what people think makes a man in that respect, cause many people are brought up in a society where certain things are expected of man based on stereotypes and beliefs in masculinity.
and i answered it. there are no behavioral requirements to be a man.

So if this thread was about what it takes to be human, would you no longer be adverse to giving a list qualities?
huh?

what does it take to be human but to be born of human parents?

What makes people conform to stereotypical gender roles? The tyranny of societal expectations, incessantly forced into children's heads from the moment they are born. Gender-deviant behaviour is discouraged, mocked and punished, slowly grinding down individuals who don't identify with the stereotypical role assigned to them and crushing their identities.

No offence, but your pic and sig is not exactly a good advert for deviating from enforced gender roles. Unless you're a dude.

I am on about what society expects from a man, a modern society - like in mexican culture they have a strong belief in masculinity.

I have no interest in what society expects from a man. Such expectations are pure sexism.

If it is a sactified beard, then I believe it would.

If your just have a moustache, any lesser demon won't even be fended off.

I'm not a moustache kinda guy ;)

Wow, re-reading my last post, that came out a lot...angrier than was first intended. Its one of my "GRRRRR" topics, I'm afraid.

I have no interest in what society expects from a man. Such expectations are pure sexism.

I am interested only to see what people think about it, cause I myself don't believe in gender roles and I wasn't particularly brought up to believe in any other than the basic "A guy shouldn't hit a girl" sort of thing.

Being able to wrestle poodles and win.

I am interested only to see what people think about it, cause I myself don't believe in gender roles and I wasn't particularly brought up to believe in any other than the basic "A guy shouldn't hit a girl" sort of thing.

Well, I think they're sexist, much like the expectation that woman would stay at home and raise the children and clean the house etc.

No offence, but your pic and sig is not exactly a good advert for deviating from enforced gender roles. Unless you're a dude.

Well, some would probably regard me as being one. I should probably explain my personal agenda so its more obvious why I get so irked by this stuff. In short...born male, always naturally acted very feminine, bullied by teachers and other pupils throughout school, tried to fit to their expectations, had something approaching a total breakdown during my first year at uni, now living as female. Yeh, I guess I actually *do* adhere fairly well to gender stereotypes, just the 'wrong' set. Quite understandably, society trying to force others into a regimented gender role that won't neccesarily fit with who they think they are is one of the issues that most annoy me. [/rant]

and most of the rules of manliness are the rules of being a responsible adult no matter what gender.

Ha...according to the crap nursery rhyme "What folks are made of":

Little boys are "Slugs and snails and puppy dog tails"
Young men are "Sighs and leers and crocodile tears"
Old men are "Slippers that flop and a bald-headed top"

So there you go. That just goes to show...something

Ha...according to the crap nursery rhyme:

Little boys are "Slugs and snails and puppy dog tails"
Young men are "Sighs and leers and crocodile tears"
Old men are "Slippers that flop and a bald-headed top"

So there you go. That just goes to show...something

That boys are yucky? I knew that when I was 5. :p

Being able to wrestle poodles and win.

I can wrestle my pet rat and win?

and most of the rules of manliness are the rules of being a responsible adult no matter what gender.

I think that's pretty much what I stated in my post. I have no expectations of men that I don't have of women.

Somewhat related, doesn't it piss you off when a little boy does something like hit another kid or something else he shouldn't, and his mother chuckles and says, "What can you do, he's all boy"? Maybe everyone hasn't been unfortunate enough to hear this, but I have, and it drives me crazy. So part of being "all boy" is being violent and irresponsible?

Well, some would probably regard me as being one. I should probably explain my personal agenda so its more obvious why I get so irked by this stuff. In short...born male, always naturally acted very feminine, bullied by teachers and other pupils throughout school, tried to fit to their expectations, had something approaching a total breakdown during my first year at uni, now living as female. Yeh, I guess I actually *do* adhere fairly well to gender stereotypes, just the 'wrong' set. Quite understandably, society trying to force others into a regimented gender role that won't neccesarily fit with who they think they are is one of the issues that most annoy me. [/rant]
since you live as a female...

do you think of yourself as a man?

huh?

what does it take to be human but to be born of human parents?Isn't that just evading the question -- because what made the first human human

But also it's also fairly common to talk about inhumane practices and qualities when referring to a human. So in that sense also: which qualities are human and which are not?

I am of the view that a man is made by expressing traditional masculine traits; such as not showing emotional. I don't believe in this politically correct mumbo-jumbo about not being manly; when men were men, society was sold and stable.

I think that's pretty much what I stated in my post. I have no expectations of men that I don't have of women.

Somewhat related, doesn't it piss you off when a little boy does something like hit another kid or something else he shouldn't, and his mother chuckles and says, "What can you do, he's all boy"? Maybe everyone hasn't been unfortunate enough to hear this, but I have, and it drives me crazy. So part of being "all boy" is being violent and irresponsible?
oh yeah thats so much crap.

as much crap as having a girl hit a boy then have the mom reprimand him for hitting her back because "shes a girl".

Isn't that just evading the question -- because what made the first human human

But also it's also fairly common to talk about inhumane practices and qualities when referring to a human. So in that sense also: which qualities are human and which are not?
those things that we call inhuman are sadly all too human.

I am of the view that a man is made by expressing traditional masculine traits; such as not showing emotional. I don't believe in this politically correct mumbo-jumbo about not being manly; when men were men, society was sold and stable.

you mean back when society respected the rule of law? When crime rates where low and every "got on" with each to at least a little extent. (I am on about within a society not between societies)

I don't think it is unmanly to show emotion.

I am of the view that a man is made by expressing traditional masculine traits; such as not showing emotional. I don't believe in this politically correct mumbo-jumbo about not being manly; when men were men, society was sold and stable.
yes but if a man is openly emotional what does that make him? he cant be a woman.

oh yeah thats so much crap.

as much crap as having a girl hit a boy then have the mom reprimand him for hitting her back because "shes a girl".

I remember growing up and people saying things like that ... not to mention its just a way to try and say girls aren't equal.

:confused:

I'm not looking to reinforce gender roles, I am trying to find out what people think about them...
And call me racist if you want but... I don't see how that makes it any different to talk to me ... Unless your going to be a ignorant bigot against "racist" people.

It's not bigotry to understand that when you're talking to an admitted racist, you're talking to someone who has deficiencies in reasoning that lead him to see superiority where it doesn't exist.

So now you're looking for people's opinions on gender roles. At least you didn't come out and say you're also in favor of strict gender roles and are somehow looking for validation from NSG.

Men and women should be whatever they want to be. Those who prefer more traditional roles are welcome to them and hooray. Those who don't are welcome to whatever roles they want and hooray as well. What's the point in attempting to codify anything resembling "should" when it comes to how someone behaves as a result of something they didn't choose, like gender (or race, for that matter, though with you that's already a lost cause).

yes but if a man is openly emotional what does that make him? he cant be a woman.

I think that the idea of a man is not supposed to show his emotions as ludicrous, its just another stereotype of the man who doesn't mess around and just gets straight to it without being weighed down by emotions as opposed to the stereotype of women being "ruled by their emotions".

It's not bigotry to understand that when you're talking to an admitted racist, you're talking to someone who has deficiencies in reasoning that lead him to see superiority where it doesn't exist.

So now you're looking for people's opinions on gender roles. At least you didn't come out and say you're also in favor of strict gender roles and are somehow looking for validation from NSG.

Men and women should be whatever they want to be. Those who prefer more traditional roles are welcome to them and hooray. Those who don't are welcome to whatever roles they want and hooray as well. What's the point in attempting to codify anything resembling "should" when it comes to how someone behaves as a result of something they didn't choose, like gender (or race, for that matter, though with you that's already a lost cause).

Well I don't believe in superiority, I just don't find black people particularly attractive, that doesn't mean I think that my race is undeniably superior just because of appearance.
And when I made this thread I did it for conversation, and I did it to see what people thought, not because I believe in it (which I really do not)

And as for your last paragraph I agree with you, men and women (regardless of race) should become what they want without the sex being an issue.

Although you seem determined to pin me down for things I don't believe. your determined to paint me as a racist who is also sexist. And because of that you are blinded to what I am saying.

since you live as a female...

do you think of yourself as a man?

Nope. To be honest though, if there weren't such gendered expectations of how people were expected to behave I don't think I would have become so uncomfortable with being one...identity is something you get from interaction with others. By my teens, it was clearly established in my head that I clearly wasn't a guy, and I can't help but think when trying to work out what the hell I was my framework was simply that "if you're not a guy, you're a girl". Now, would I have ended up identifying so strongly with the feminine as I do now if an acceptance of the gender binary framework wasn't drilled into me from a young age? I'm inclined to think maybe not, though of course you can't know for sure.

oh yeah thats so much crap.

as much crap as having a girl hit a boy then have the mom reprimand him for hitting her back because "shes a girl".

That one always puzzled me, too. Seems to me that defending yourself is independent of gender. I remember one elementary school recess where a girl was repeatedly kicking me in the shin. I'd decided it hurt and I'd had enough, so I lifted up my leg to offer the edge of the sole of my shoe for her to kick instead of my bruised shin. When she barked her own shin against my shoe's edge, she cried to a teacher and I was punished. It was then that I told myself that if I ever had a son, I'd tell him NEVER to start a physical confrontation with a woman unless she attacks someone you care about or someone who can't defend themselves or in any other reasonable situation.

Well I don't believe in superiority, I just don't find black people particularly attractive, that doesn't mean I think that my race is undeniably superior just because of appearance.
And when I made this thread I did it for conversation, and I did it to see what people thought, not because I believe in it (which I really do not)

And as for your last paragraph I agree with you, men and women (regardless of race) should become what they want without the sex being an issue.

Although you seem determined to pin me down for things I don't believe. your determined to paint me as a racist who is also sexist. And because of that you are blinded to what I am saying.

Or seeing it all too clearly. Meh.

Nope. To be honest though, if there weren't such gendered expectations of how people were expected to behave I don't think I would have become so uncomfortable with being one...identity is something you get from interaction with others. By my teens, it was clearly established in my head that I clearly wasn't a guy, and I can't help but think when trying to work out what the hell I was my framework was simply that "if you're not a guy, you're a girl". Now, would I have ended up identifying so strongly with the feminine as I do now if an acceptance of the gender binary framework wasn't drilled into me from a young age? I'm inclined to think maybe not, though of course you can't know for sure.
hmmmm interesting.

sounds like a trip you are still taking.

how well are you being accepted as a female?

Or seeing it all too clearly. Meh.

Your seeing it how you want.

I am of the view that a man is made by expressing traditional masculine traits; such as not showing emotional. I don't believe in this politically correct mumbo-jumbo about not being manly; when men were men, society was sold and stable.

When was that?

That one always puzzled me, too. Seems to me that defending yourself is independent of gender. I remember one elementary school recess where a girl was repeatedly kicking me in the shin. I'd decided it hurt and I'd had enough, so I lifted up my leg to offer the edge of the sole of my shoe for her to kick instead of my bruised shin. When she barked her own shin against my shoe's edge, she cried to a teacher and I was punished. It was then that I told myself that if I ever had a son, I'd tell him NEVER to start a physical confrontation with a woman unless she attacks someone you care about or someone who can't defend themselves or in any other reasonable situation.
its good to keep in mind that you (if you are a typical man) hit far harder than a girl does (if she is a typical girl) so quite often the retaliation isnt as appropriate as it might seem to be when you are in the middle of it.

my son was never prone to fighting so i never had to tell him not to hit girls. or to hit them if it was right to do so.

Faulty brain wiring?

An incomplete chromosome.

I'm pretty sure this has been done before but I'm gonna do it anyway.

so NSG, what do you think makes a man? And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

Ability to control emotions when needed. [/fragile, unstable person speaking]

When was that?

I remember that some people used to believe that men don't/shouldn't show their emotions because that's to "feminine" or a sign of weakness.

Which is nonsense, but meh leave 'em to it.

I am of the view that a man is made by expressing traditional masculine traits; such as not showing emotional. I don't believe in this politically correct mumbo-jumbo about not being manly; when men were men, society was sold and stable.
Yeah, and them dames knew to have dinner on the stove and a fresh drink for you when you got home or they'd have to explain how they're so clumsy and must have fallen down the stairs hitting an eye on the banister on the way down.

Ability to control emotions when needed. [/fragile, unstable person speaking]

Well it is impossible for a human to be able to control their emotions entirely, but whether they do not allow them to totally rule them is a different matter. And yes there is something of a belief in society that all men should be in control of themselves, but when I saw that it was mainly what little kids believed, like when children say men don't cry.

hmmmm interesting.

sounds like a trip you are still taking.

how well are you being accepted as a female?

I don't know really. Ok, I guess. I'm living on uni campus where everyone is quite liberal and wouldn't say anything even if they did work it out, so I haven't got major trouble from anyone as yet. I personally think I look awful and that anyone who is vaguely convinced must be half-blind and deaf. But people I confide in say I look fine and that they'd never have guessed. Truth or being kind I'm not sure. But I get very paranoid when off the campus, especially if there are what some would call "chavs" around (I don't like the term, but can't think of an adequate replacement), as they tend to lack a sensitive, mature, empathising, reflective approach to the situation of others in my experience.

I remember that some people used to believe that men don't/shouldn't show their emotions because that's to "feminine" or a sign of weakness.

Which is nonsense, but meh leave 'em to it.

I'm more wondering when this mythical time of a solid, stable society was.

Bollocks.

By the way: Badass of the week (http://badassoftheweek.com/)

Your seeing it how you want.

Just as you are.

its good to keep in mind that you (if you are a typical man) hit far harder than a girl does (if she is a typical girl) so quite often the retaliation isnt as appropriate as it might seem to be when you are in the middle of it.

my son was never prone to fighting so i never had to tell him not to hit girls. or to hit them if it was right to do so.

Sorry, but if you're going to resort to violence, regardless of your gender, you make that decision usually without knowing much about how hard the person you're choosing to strike can himself strike. That alone should moderate any decision to hit someone. I understand your reasoning, but I disagree with its application. If I am being attacked, I will defend myself. If someone I care about it being attacked, I will defend them. The gender of the attacker simply does not matter.

I'm more wondering when this mythical time of a solid, stable society was.

Well I think the poster was on about when society was held together by a rigid caste system mainly run by men (Feudal society I believe)

Just as you are.

Well I can't help but see it as I mean it.

Why I Stopped Trying to Be a Real Man (http://web.archive.org/web/20070402172337/http://www.feminista.com/archives/v1n2/stoltenberg.html) - John Stoltenberg

According to a Bagandan myth from East Africa... a man can be made using the following:
= all the hair from all the people in a kingdom burnt to make a thousand loads of charcoal
= one hundred large pots full of tears for quenching the fire
= and lots of iron.

Well I can't help but see it as I mean it.

As do I.

I don't know really. Ok, I guess. I'm living on uni campus where everyone is quite liberal and wouldn't say anything even if they did work it out, so I haven't got major trouble from anyone as yet. I personally think I look awful and that anyone who is vaguely convinced must be half-blind and deaf. But people I confide in say I look fine and that they'd never have guessed. Truth or being kind I'm not sure. But I get very paranoid when off the campus, especially if there are what some would call "chavs" around (I don't like the term, but can't think of an adequate replacement), as they tend to lack a sensitive, mature, empathising, reflective approach to the situation of others in my experience.

Where is this (if you don't mind my asking)?

Where is this (if you don't mind my asking)?

Don't mind at all. I'm currently studying at the wonderously lovely and liberal Warwick University. But I grew up in south-east England, where the older people tend to be narrow-minded conservative bigots, and a large number of the youth are chavs, a subculture that is notably homophobic and intolerant.

what do you think makes a man?

Secrets. A miserable little pile of them.

Why I Stopped Trying to Be a Real Man (http://web.archive.org/web/20070402172337/http://www.feminista.com/archives/v1n2/stoltenberg.html) - John Stoltenberg

Ooooh! Man-bashing at it's finest! A brilliant display of intellectual bankruptcy!


I suspect what the OP intended to ask is - "What traits - physical, intellectual, emotional, ethical or otherwise - do you feel makes a man manly?"

Anyone can be strong. Anyone can inflict their will on weaker people. Some people are even foolish enough to celebrate these as values or desirable traits! (One does not have to dig very deep into 'gangsta rap' to find examples of this) However; in most other cultures 'manly' traits have been more altruistically defined for centuries- and substantially more difficult to consistently emulate.

In the traditional European sense 'manliness' would be relevant to chivalry, which rests on the foundation of knightly virtues; Courage, Justice, Mercy, Generosity, Faith, Nobility and Hope.
In Japan mainlines would likely follow 'Bushido' - which is similar in many ways; Frugality, Loyalty, Martial Arts and Honor unto death.
The worlds oldest and largest fraternal order - The Masons - defines three Masonic virtues; Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. They have roots in European and Arab tradition.

Considering the vast diversity of the cultures in this sample - they all seem to have a commonality of the definition of ideal male traits; essentially all traits of a protector.

Contrast these against traits traditionally considered appealing for femininity - while similar - tend to focus on nurturing.

Both classes of traits are subservient in their own ways - but not to one another so much as to society - and the continuation of it. These gender roles were defined over centuries and have seen mankind through the dark ages, Renaissance, industrial age and to today. Some would argue that they no longer serve a purpose and are expired ideals. I would argue that would be a narrow minded (if not selfish) construct of the realities of human existence. There is no doubt that these roles can become polarized to an unhealthy capacity - however to pretend that there is no role for parents to fulfill would be even more foolish. Genders have roles to play because the genders physically are equipped to procreate in different and brilliantly complimentary ways. As technology has decreased the amount of time which humans must spend scraping out an existence the roles have been able to expand considerably - but to expand is not to expire. Ultimately children must be protected and nurtured. Either parent can achieve both of these (and is expected to) however the millennia have equipped each differently in order to more adequately perform their respective gender roles. Ignoring this is folly.

To that end; physical traits which better equip a person to accomplish their respective gender roles are certainly attractive and can be perceived to enhance a person's masculinity or femininity. However - it is not the capacity to perform which is considered masculine or feminine; it is the performance. - which is why over the centuries the virtues of 'manliness' (Chivalry, Bushido, whatever') are not a list of physical traits (large biceps, deep voice, hairy chest) - they are a list of virtues.

I'm pretty sure this has been done before but I'm gonna do it anyway.

so NSG, what do you think makes a man? And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

Hard work, honour, and puppy dog tails.

Ooooh! Man-bashing at it's finest! A brilliant display of intellectual bankruptcy!

When I saw your username in the "Last Post" column, I immediately knew what you had replied to, and the direction of your reply.

Some people are so predictable. ;)

so NSG, what do you think makes a man?

A penis.

And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

Oh....then in that case I'll go with "nothing" as abstract concepts like "man's man" are just archaic social constructs that have long since outlived their usefulness, which do not even come close to defining all, or most, or even a significant minority of 3+ billion people.

dos equis beer commercials, that's what makes a man.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bc0WjTT0Ps
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mC9mqbImrC8&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wNYHoI47fw0&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vyx9sa99E&feature=related
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZHjcQZ15g&feature=related

I love those commercials.

dos equis beer commercials, that's what makes a man.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8Bc0WjTT0Ps
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mC9mqbImrC8&feature=related

I love those commercials.

Can't hold a candle to these guys:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=GigV0J-xn7I

Can't hold a candle to these guys:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=GigV0J-xn7I

No. My guy was cooler.

When I saw your username in the "Last Post" column, I immediately knew what you had replied to, and the direction of your reply.

Some people are so predictable. ;)

Yes - I am predictably correct and thorough. Now - Do you want to debate the message or would you prefer to persist in the fallacy of Ad Hominem?

I knew your first post was intellectually bankrupt. Your last post would imply that the author is as well. I would prefer to believe that to be untrue - but some evidence would be helpful...

Is it the woman in his arms?
just cuz she has big titties?
Or is it hte way he bakes every day?
No its probably the titties!

Now you're a man!
A man man man!
Now you're a man!
Manmanmanmanmanman!
Now you're a man!
You are not a man you're a myaaaaaaaaaaaaawn
Now you're Myaw!

Do you want to debate the message

Honestly? With you, no.

But that is not the point. I might have given even you a real reply if you had actually bothered to say something of substance about "the message."

Honestly? With you, no.

But that is not the point. I might have given even you a real reply if you had actually bothered to say something of substance about "the message."

Whassamatter? You don't got the balls to debate me on manliness?

;)

(I crack myself up!)

.


Really - your posts are as bankrupt as Air America. Your excuse for not engaging is laughable, and your kung fu is not strong.

now go away - and don't come back or I shall taunt you a second time.

Whassamatter? You don't got the balls to debate me on manliness?

;)

(I crack myself up!)

.


Really - your posts are as bankrupt as Air America.

I give it a D-

Whassamatter? You don't got the balls to debate me on manliness?

;)

(I crack myself up!)

.


Really - your posts are as bankrupt as Air America. Your excuse for not engaging is laughable, and your kung fu is not strong.

now go away - and don't come back or I shall taunt you again.

What was that about ad hominem?

Whassamatter? You don't got the balls to debate me on manliness?

Sure, if it makes you feel better.

now go away - and don't come back or I shall taunt you again.

Scary.

Being born with an XY chromosone.

What was that about ad hominem?

No - those comments were about the content of the post - not the author. Keep your fallacies straight. They were not fallacies at all - they are taunting. There is a difference. Sheesh.

Soheran has habitually backed down from engagement after making ad-hominem posts about me - my guess is it is fear of having to face his or her own doubts more so than it is any fear of justifying his unspoken beliefs to me.

Men that live the expected stereotypes end up looking completely unmanly in my eyes. A real man isn't afraid to be himself.

I was the only person to answer seriously without any attitude or snarkiness and I didn't even get a cookie! Forget this thread.

1. Is a human being.
2. Is an adult.
3. Self-identifies as male.

That's pretty much it.

A miserable pile of secrets.

Well it is impossible for a human to be able to control their emotions entirely, but whether they do not allow them to totally rule them is a different matter. And yes there is something of a belief in society that all men should be in control of themselves, but when I saw that it was mainly what little kids believed, like when children say men don't cry.

As in, not be completely led by their emotions, but still acknowledging their emotions.

Biologically, the Y Chromosome...

Sociologically, a Male Oriented Thought Process....

What makes a man?

Courage, stubborness, a beard, wits, hard work, a strong sense of right and wrong, the willingness to fight if the need arises, for whatever reason, determination...

Hmm, what else. Some humility, stoicism, being able to suck it up and grin and bear unpleasantness or illness, self-reliance, independence, etc.

I think that's a nice list.

A penis.



Oh....then in that case I'll go with "nothing" as abstract concepts like "man's man" are just archaic social constructs that have long since outlived their usefulness, which do not even come close to defining all, or most, or even a significant minority of 3+ billion people.

Archaic social constructs, hah!

I'll bet you were picked on in high school by jocks, so now you say that men acting like men is 'archaic', just to cover the fact you couldn't, or wouldn't defend yourself!

Archaic social constructs, hah!

I'll bet you were picked on in high school by jocks, so now you say that men acting like men is 'archaic', just to cover the fact you couldn't, or wouldn't defend yourself!

Actually, i was on the Football team, so there was no picking of the sort, lol...

But, i still think they are archaic social constructs...

I'm pretty sure possessing a Y chromosome is necessary to be a biologically human male. Beyond that, I guess it's up to us as a society.

I'll bet you were picked on in high school by jocks, so now you say that men acting like men is 'archaic', just to cover the fact you couldn't, or wouldn't defend yourself!

This is what's wrong with masculinity.

(Well, one of the many things.)

This is what's wrong with masculinity.

(Well, one of the many things.)

I was merely conveying my disgust at his belief that traditional images of men are 'archaic', and found a plausible reason as to why he would think so.

Generally people who differ greatly from social standards wonder why they don't fit in, or meet those standards. Sometimes, instead of trying improve themselves, or realizing that no one is perfect, they try and ruin the ideal by twisting it and saying it is worthless.

Which is complete and utter bullshit. Men have had a manly image for a long ass time, why is that? There's gotta be a reason, probably some important ones too.

'sides, who really cares if you are not a 'manly man' or something. Sure, maybe you'll get teased a bit in school, but who doesn't get teased for something? That's an important of growing up- learning to cope with shit.

Edit: Even if the belief that men should act a certain way is in fact 'archaic', it sure as hell isn't dying soon, if ever.

I was merely conveying my disgust at his belief that traditional images of men are 'archaic', and found a plausible reason as to why he would think so.

Generally people who differ greatly from social standards wonder why they don't fit in, or meet those standards. Sometimes, instead of trying improve themselves, or realizing that no is perfect, they try and ruin the ideal by twisting it and saying it is worthless.

Which is complete and utter bullshit. Men have had a manly image for a long ass time, why is that? There's gotta be a reason, probably some important ones too.

'sides, who really cares if you are not a 'manly man' or something. Sure, maybe you'll get teased a bit in school, but who doesn't get teased for something? That's an important of growing up- learning to cope with shit.

Edit: Even if the belief that men should act a certain way is in fact 'archaic', it sure as hell isn't dying soon, if ever.

http://yourargumentisinvalid.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/my_hair_is_a_bird-257x300.jpg

Lol, i was just waiting for a reason to use that...

someone who attempts suicide less, yet is more successful at it than a woman due to an increased likelihood of using violent methods such as a gun. statics don't lie.

I think it has something to do with barbecuing. I've never seen a woman bar-b-que. BBQ.

http://yourargumentisinvalid.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/my_hair_is_a_bird-257x300.jpg

Lol, i was just waiting for a reason to use that...

http://www.movie-moron.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/star-wars/SW-You-Fail.jpg

And you actually plan to use pics like this?

You must not have much of a life...

someone who attempts suicide less, yet is more successful at it than a woman due to an increased likelihood of using violent methods such as a gun. statics don't lie.

That image is NOT appropriate.

http://www.movie-moron.com/blog/wp-content/gallery/star-wars/SW-You-Fail.jpg

And you actually plan to use pics like this?

You must not have much of a life...

If you plan your pics, then there is a possibility that...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b42/Segomo2/DoingItWrong6.jpg

I was merely conveying my disgust at his belief that traditional images of men are 'archaic', and found a plausible reason as to why he would think so.

No, you were engaging in an ad hominem argument, and you were doing it on the basis of social prejudice against "weak" men.

Generally people who differ greatly from social standards wonder why they don't fit in, or meet those standards.

Right.

Sometimes, instead of trying improve themselves, or realizing that no is perfect, they try and ruin the ideal by twisting it and saying it is worthless.

Now you're just begging the question. Why should anyone recognize your ideal as having any weight? Posturing at masculinity tends to generate irrationality, insensitivity, repression, sexism, and homophobia, and its apparent "merits", tied as they are to a cultural ideal that speaks to men as men and not as persons, tend to be founded on stereotypes and patronizing and sexist notions of "chivalry."

Of course, that's not necessarily the whole story... and there's an argument for claiming that cultural masculinity can be redeemed. But (rather like the analogous case of religion), however convincing I find some of the theory on that subject, when I actually deal with people who buy into it I start becoming very skeptical.

Men have had a manly image for a long ass time, why is that? There's gotta be a reason, probably some important ones too.

A reason is not a justification. Long-term existence speaks to power, but not to justice.

'sides, who really cares if you are not a 'manly man' or something.

Wait, you're the one who's defending manliness as an ideal... and you're the one who appears to think that calling into question another person's manliness counts as an argument.

So I'm not sure why you're asking me to answer this question.

Sure, maybe you'll get teased a bit in school, but who doesn't get teased for something? That's an important of growing up- learning to cope with shit.

No one should have to learn to cope with the "shit" of being insulted and degraded for being who he or she is.

Your analysis puts the impetus on the victim to deal with it... as if someone else's prejudices were somehow his or her fault.

Edit: Even if the belief that men should act a certain way is in fact 'archaic', it sure as hell isn't dying soon, if ever.

I'm not so sure. It's still strong, but it's weakening.

<snip?>

WTF.

What the FUCK is wrong with you piece of shit? Showing a picture of a guy who killed himself and using as a fucking lolcat? Fucking piece of shit. Have you no sense of fucking dignity or respect?!

And as to your next post, you plan your pics, and you still do it wrong.

I'm pretty sure this has been done before but I'm gonna do it anyway.

so NSG, what do you think makes a man? And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

What makes a man, is it the power in his hands?
Is it his quest for glory?
Give it all you've got, to fight to the top.
So we can know your story.

Now you're a man, a man, man, man.
Now you're a man, a manly, manly man.
A man, man, man.
You are now a man, you're a man.
Now you're a man.

What makes a man, is it the woman in his arms?
Just 'cause she has big *******?
Or is it the way, he fights every day?
No, it's probably the *******.

Now you're a man, a man, man, man.
Now you're a ma-man, a ma-ma-ma-ma-man
Now you're a man, M-A-N man, man.
Man, man, maan.
Now you're a man.


(sorry for the censorship, just don't wanna risk getting banned :tongue:)

Man, you had to go all serious....

http://www.intelligentrecords.com/Comments/WhySoSerious.jpg

I was enjoying our picture debate, lol...

WTF.

What the FUCK is wrong with you piece of shit? Showing a picture of a guy who killed himself and using as a fucking lolcat? Fucking piece of shit. Have you no sense of fucking dignity or respect?!

And as to your next post, you plan your pics, and you still do it wrong.

You haven't been on the internet long have you? That pic was tame and made me lol. It's nothing compared to most the stuff I've seen. Welcome to the real world sport. Besides if that guy had so little value for his life to go head and take it himself, do you really think he'd care about "dignity" or "respect"?

You haven't been on the internet long have you? That pic was tame and made me lol. It's nothing compared to most the stuff I've seen. Welcome to the real world sport. Besides if that guy had so little value for his life to go head and take it himself, do you really think he'd care about "dignity" or "respect"?

I don't go making it a habit to look at FILTH like that.

see a few pics of shotgun suicides and then talk to me about "filth"

Besides if that guy had so little value for his life to go head and take it himself, do you really think he'd care about "dignity" or "respect"?

Um... yes? What does one have to do with the other? People who are suicidal aren't apathetic; quite the contrary.

Um... yes? What does one have to do with the other? People who are suicidal aren't apathetic; quite the contrary.

Meh, it was just a random picture, when he replied with one, i just started looking for another one...

Besides, five bucks its fake anyway...

Goaded that guy into emotional rage, and i wasnt even trying, lol...

Um... yes? What does one have to do with the other? People who are suicidal aren't apathetic; quite the contrary.

Not always. I've suicidal and apathetic several times.

No, you were engaging in an ad hominem argument, and you were doing it on the basis of social prejudice against "weak" men.
Well, probably in part.



Now you're just begging the question. Why should anyone recognize your ideal as having any weight? Posturing at masculinity tends to generate irrationality, insensitivity, repression, sexism, and homophobia, and its apparent "merits", tied as they are to a cultural ideal that speaks to men as men and not as persons, tend to be founded on stereotypes and patronizing and sexist notions of "chivalry."

Of course, that's not necessarily the whole story... and there's an argument for claiming that cultural masculinity can be redeemed. But (rather like the analogous case of religion), however convincing I find some of the theory on that subject, when I actually deal with people who buy into it I start becoming very skeptical.

You think too much into this. Men should act like men simply because they are men.



A reason is not a justification. Long-term existence speaks to power, but not to justice.

Oh well. Seems fine to me.



Wait, you're the one who's defending manliness as an ideal... and you're the one who appears to think that calling into question another person's manliness counts as an argument.

Yes, I think men should be manly, but you know what, its an ideal, and not everyone can live up to it. And yes, from time to time calling someones manhood into question seems acceptable- especially when they are saying the whole notion of manliness is 'archaic'.





No one should have to learn to cope with the "shit" of being insulted and degraded for being who he or she is.

Nonsense. Kids need to learn that the world is not full of hugs, chocolate, and rainbows all the time. The world can be a harsh, harsh place. The sooner they learn to deal with shit, the better.



I'm not so sure. It's still strong, but it's weakening.
For good or ill, I think you are right. I don't see it disappearing though.

The ability to disrobe in public, put on a spikey helmet, drink beer, wave an axe, slaughter some civilians, drink some more beer, burn some houses, drink some more beer, pillage a monastery, drink some more beer then sail home again.

Hey

What makes a man?
Is it the power in his hands?
Is it his quest for glory?
Give it all you've got,
to fight to the top
So we can know your story

Now you're a man

A man, man man
Now you're a man

A manny manny man
A man man man

You are now a man
You're a man
Now you're a man

Live it, Live it

What make a man?
Is it the woman in his arms?
Just cause she has big titties?
Or is it the way he fights every day?
....No, it's probably the titties

Now you're a man

A man, man man
Now you're a man-man

Man-man man-man man
Now you're a man

M-A-N, man
Man, man-man man
Now you're a man

Meh, it was just a random picture, when he replied with one, i just started looking for another one...

Besides, five bucks its fake anyway...

Goaded that guy into emotional rage, and i wasnt even trying, lol...

Not lol. Cruelty is ... not lol.

I don't need a Mod to tell me ... you lost that one. You aren't funny, and you can't debate worth shit.

============

You think too much into this. Men should act like men simply because they are men.

Hint: Soheran thinks a lot into everything he posts about. Replying to Soheran is very difficult!

I disagree that "men should act like men because they are men."

In a thread about what rape consists of, when alcohol is involved, you invoked the concept "gentlemen." Though you were beaten there, with the class definition of "gentleman" (a ruling-class man), I had some sympathy for your meaning. There are DECENT ways for a man to behave, and there are WRONG ways for a man to behave.

Both could be seen as "ways a man behaves." It simply isn't enough, as a rule of behaviour, to say "a man should behave as he believes a man should behave." That is an amoral principle!

If you have some book where what a man should do in each situation is laid out, you should cite that. Because otherwise, there is no definition for you or for I of "what a man should do" other than "what we think a man should do."

For me, a big part of what I think I should do as a man was what my father taught me. Luckily, the greater part of my judgement is what I think a good person should do, which was drawn from wider influences, most notably my mother.

Yes, I think men should be manly, but you know what, its an ideal, and not everyone can live up to it. And yes, from time to time calling someones manhood into question seems acceptable- especially when they are saying the whole notion of manliness is 'archaic'.

"Acceptable" perhaps. But pointless, even counterproductive. You give them one more reason (not being bullied by your achaic expectations) NOT to prove their "manhood."

Nonsense. Kids need to learn that the world is not full of hugs, chocolate, and rainbows all the time. The world can be a harsh, harsh place. The sooner they learn to deal with shit, the better.

Nothing there but your own disenchantment.

"Deal with" means accept. Accept "the shit" as one of the things we can't change. Abandon dreams of a better world, and give as bad as you get.

I'd feel sorry for you, except that that would diminish the "manliness" of both of us, in your eyes.

I'll just say: "do unto others as they do unto you" is NOT the Golden Rule. And it's not what I consider Manly.

Given the vast range of traits and activities that men have been expected to take on I find it ridiculous that anyone could claim that one set of ideals could be considered manly, especially when history has shown that at various times the concept of manliness has completely reversed on itself. I doubt many modern people would consider pederasty to be very manly but classical Mediterranean and medieval Japanese culture consider it an integral manly activity.

You think too much into this.

Well, I think too much into lots of things, but in this case we're dealing with what I believe is a rather important social question, and one that should be thought about.

Men should act like men simply because they are men.

That's the logic of the reasoning, yes... but the trouble is that it's not logical at all. I'm XY, I have a penis, etc. Why does this mean I should behave in any particular way?

Yes, I think men should be manly, but you know what, its an ideal, and not everyone can live up to it.

That's not good enough.

Humility (for example) is, I think, a worthy virtue, and the ideal of a humble person is an important one to pursue. I have real trouble with this--I can't live up to it--but that doesn't mean I shouldn't make a real effort, and struggle against the vanity that seeks to stop me.

Manliness? I probably could live up to that ideal, more or less, though not being physically inclined I'd have to be a little creative about parts. I don't want to, though. Quite aside from my moral objections to the social prejudices upon which traditional notions of manliness rely, I just don't care for that particular cultural construct--it doesn't speak to me, it's not the kind of person I want to be.

What's wrong with that?

And yes, from time to time calling someones manhood into question seems acceptable- especially when they are saying the whole notion of manliness is 'archaic'.

But why?

If masculinity is to become compatible with respect for other human beings, those who identify with it will have to stop being so imperialist. They will have to respect the fact that some "XYs" aren't inclined to be "manly"... and accept that this preference may be perfectly right and legitimate for them.

Nonsense. Kids need to learn that the world is not full of hugs, chocolate, and rainbows all the time. The world can be a harsh, harsh place. The sooner they learn to deal with shit, the better.

Kids will "learn to deal with shit" anyway. As you say, it isn't going away. But some kinds of shit we can deal with--we can stop kids (and adults as well) from having to endure it. We should. It's not about sheltering anyone--it's about making the world a better place.

Is there anything to be said for the definition of a man being on who is able to drink and pillage while wearing nothing but a helmet with horns?

Archaic social constructs, hah!

Yes, that's what I said. Glad you can keep up.

I'll bet you were picked on in high school by jocks,

I was a varsity athelete in three different sports.

so now you say that men acting like men is 'archaic', just to cover the fact you couldn't, or wouldn't defend yourself!

I'm nidan rank in judo, and 185 pounds. Odds are, I can drop you before you had a chance to say "boo"

And if you're wondering WHY I called typical "masculin" traits archaic social constructs, I think you just aptly demonstrated why. It's that typical machismo crap that causes people like you to sound off in typical posturing ways, letting your overly aggressive, immature, and frankly, caveman like attitude override any common sense.

Yes, people like you are archaic.

I don't go making it a habit to look at FILTH like that.

Says the super hardened macho man, Christ you sound like Mary Whitehouse.

A hat according to my old gran.

Is there anything to be said for the definition of a man being on who is able to drink and pillage while wearing nothing but a helmet with horns?

Eh, the drinking and pillaging, even the silly hat, are just props on the stage of gender.

How about: a man is a person, who can be identified as a man when naked?

THIS:

[IF]

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

--Rudyard Kipling

Lovely words, Rudyard Kipling. But I wonder if anyone would dare the same words today.

Most of those things would be more properly expected of a good person, than of a good man, and furthermore we might object to the idea that one who fails to live up to these ideals is less than a man.

To expect such high standards of a son, but not of a daughter ... I'm not sure. Perhaps a father does have special influence over his son, and a mother over her daughter. Perhaps it is right to have higher expectations of a child of your own gender, based in a common characteristic (gender) which will shape their experiences in ways you are familiar with.

How about: a man is a person, who can be identified as a man when naked?

Unless he's a eunuch. Then all cards are down.

Any adult human who fits the following:

An individual with a karyotype containing a Y chromosome, an individual whose cell nuclei do not contain Barr sex chromatin bodies, which are normally present in females. Patients with ambiguous sexual development and those with Turner's syndrome are classed as genetic males or genetic females according to the absence or presence of Barr bodies even though their sex chromosome complement may suggest otherwise.

What makes a man?

Courage, stubborness, a beard, wits, hard work, a strong sense of right and wrong, the willingness to fight if the need arises, for whatever reason, determination...

Hmm, what else. Some humility, stoicism, being able to suck it up and grin and bear unpleasantness or illness, self-reliance, independence, etc.

I think that's a nice list.
Except all of those things could just as easily apply to a hairy woman. A definition of 'man' that can apply to women is useless.
Archaic social constructs, hah!

I'll bet you were picked on in high school by jocks, so now you say that men acting like men is 'archaic', just to cover the fact you couldn't, or wouldn't defend yourself!
Mmmm, delicious ad hominem.
You think too much into this. Men should act like men simply because they are men.

Saying "I'm right because I say so" is really just a waste of your own time.

You haven't been on the internet long have you? That pic was tame and made me lol. It's nothing compared to most the stuff I've seen. Welcome to the real world sport. Besides if that guy had so little value for his life to go head and take it himself, do you really think he'd care about "dignity" or "respect"?

I don't go making it a habit to look at FILTH like that.

see a few pics of shotgun suicides and then talk to me about "filth"

Meh, it was just a random picture, when he replied with one, i just started looking for another one...

Besides, five bucks its fake anyway...

Goaded that guy into emotional rage, and i wasnt even trying, lol...

Debate over. Pics of gore, maimed bodies, and death are strictly banned here, and we don't want them, period. Trollgard and the rest of the forums, myself included, don't need to see that. If you do, there are plenty of other forums where it's acceptable.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8784641&postcount=3

Obscene and Explicit Content: Sexually graphic images and posts, and violent images such as bloody corpses. Very strictly forbidden. Obscene imagery and content in the forums should be reported to the Moderation Forum. Please provide a link to the topic, but do not quote it while explaining its illegality. Then we have to find and delete your posts too.

The standard for both forums and game is the US movie rating "PG-13". Mild swearing may be tolerated, mild sexuality may be hinted, but explicit or excessive versions of either or both may result in proportional mod response.

People who have posted graphic images have been deleted before -- I would suggest NOT posting anything like that again.

People who have posted graphic images have been deleted before -- I would suggest NOT posting anything like that again.

She's not kidding, either!

That one always puzzled me, too. Seems to me that defending yourself is independent of gender. I remember one elementary school recess where a girl was repeatedly kicking me in the shin. I'd decided it hurt and I'd had enough, so I lifted up my leg to offer the edge of the sole of my shoe for her to kick instead of my bruised shin. When she barked her own shin against my shoe's edge, she cried to a teacher and I was punished. It was then that I told myself that if I ever had a son, I'd tell him NEVER to start a physical confrontation with a woman unless she attacks someone you care about or someone who can't defend themselves or in any other reasonable situation.

Hahaha~ When I was a little there was this kid who kept kicking -me- in the shin... so I punched him in the nose and made him bleed. Mostly I've ignored gender roles, I think, like a lot of other BS society paints as normal. I mostly do what I want within the boundaries of the law regardless of whether it's 'normal' or not. Hehehe~ I show my dad all of the nice bruises I bring home from kendo and get asked "why can't I do a normal sport?" Well, 'cause I don't want to, obviously.

Lovely words, Rudyard Kipling. But I wonder if anyone would dare the same words today.

Most of those things would be more properly expected of a good person, than of a good man, and furthermore we might object to the idea that one who fails to live up to these ideals is less than a man.

To expect such high standards of a son, but not of a daughter ... I'm not sure. Perhaps a father does have special influence over his son, and a mother over her daughter. Perhaps it is right to have higher expectations of a child of your own gender, based in a common characteristic (gender) which will shape their experiences in ways you are familiar with.

Kipling lived in a time and society when one gender was expected to be adventurous and self-sufficient and the other simply wasn't, and his words address the realities of his time and place.

Today, I would apply those expectations to both my sons and my daughters, and I don't feel that high expectations are anything to be ashamed of, provided there is also support and love.

Eh, the drinking and pillaging, even the silly hat, are just props on the stage of gender.

How about: a man is a person, who can be identified as a man when naked?

Pah! The gender doesn't make a man, it only makes him male. A real man can drink a vat of wine, pillage a small European town, in the nude and still have stamina for 'extra activities' afterwards.

Pah! The gender doesn't make a man, it only makes him male. A real man can drink a vat of wine, pillage a small European town, in the nude and still have stamina for 'extra activities' afterwards.

I think you have confused the average man with the average viking.

A real man is one not made from wood. Doesn't anyone bother to read fairytales any more. I blame TV and the internet.

A real man is one not made from wood. Doesn't anyone bother to read fairytales any more. I blame TV and the internet.
That's a real boy.

But boys sometimes grow up into men. So presumably an adult Pinocchio could have become a real man if he were still a puppet.

Besides, he still becomes a real man, because he learns to be responsible for himself and care for others. Typical coming of age story.

This is what's wrong with masculinity.

(Well, one of the many things.)

posted pertaining to Trollgaard:
I'll bet you were picked on in high school by jocks, so now you say that men acting like men is 'archaic', just to cover the fact you couldn't, or wouldn't defend yourself!

Actually - Trollguard is not describing masculine behavior - he is describing childish behavior. (unless you consider 'childish' to also be an archaic term)

Masculine traits are as I described in my first post in this thread. They are not childish, irresponsible, or cruel. No more than feminine traits are gossipy, petty or bitchy. It does not take much in the dept. of maturity to realize this - and maturity is gender neutral. (and opposite to childish - so therefore possibly 'archaic' too.)

Also - I have been considering language - particular latin languages where words are either masculine or feminine - such as "la puerta" or "el pomo". (the door and the doorknob) I suppose Spanish also is archaic...

Kipling lived in a time and society when one gender was expected to be adventurous and self-sufficient and the other simply wasn't, and his words address the realities of his time and place.

Yes. I wouldn't seek to rewrite all old literature and philosophy to make it "gender neutral." It's good to be reminded of how we've changed.

Kipling would flip. I rather think I'd flip, trying to make sense of society a century hence!

*snip*

Also - I have been considering language - particular latin languages where words are either masculine or feminine - such as "la puerta" or "el pomo". (the door and the doorknob) I suppose Spanish also is archaic...

Perhaps you can tell me ... is it more insulting to use a 'neutralized' word for a person, than to deliberately flip the gender of the word?

I do rather believe in the power of the words we use shape our thoughts, what we can and can't think in fact. But the scope for puns in a gendered language would be rather awesome.

Actually - Trollguard is not describing masculine behavior - he is describing childish behavior.

The target of my comment was not the behavior he described, but the behavior he exhibited.

I have been considering language

That's nice. But I suggest you try an argument that doesn't involve equivocation next time.

Also - I have been considering language - particular latin languages where words are either masculine or feminine - such as "la puerta" or "el pomo". (the door and the doorknob) I suppose Spanish also is archaic...

Actually, in gendered languages there are some pretty interesting uses for genders...given the way some of them end up in German, it's a rather progressive shuffling of gender roles. ;)

so NSG, what do you think makes a man? And I'm not on about simply having male genitals.

This is easy: XY

I think you have confused the average man with the average viking.

They aren't the same?

So presumably an adult Pinocchio could have become a real man if he were still a puppet.
Except that the nose wouldn't be the part that grew.

The ability to not fly off the handle over lolcats....fuckers...

Sorry, had to put that out there...probably be my last bitchy post for a bit, just have to get my bitterness out of the system...

One "X" and one "Y", done.

One "X" and one "Y", done.

it is not as easy as that. .

remember there are those born originally as XX but their mental, hormonal and behavioural aspects are XY ...thus they are XY for all purposes ...sometimes you can even have XY genes but have XX genitals ....so what is an man really ???

simply having XY is not it ..

i think that its the possesing of traits and characteristics generally to varying degrees of course of a man in terms of behaviour and mentality ..

remember gender is more an issue of identity, culture and personality not genetics ( which sex you are is genetics ) ...

among male traits - a general drive for sex greater than most females
- tendency to focus on physicalities ..
- intellectual and brain activities and focused abilities
- a general sense of male attitude
- and the other traits commonly associated with men
- a sense of protectiveness for enything weaker
- bravado
- and a million other traits ...the above r the more typical ones ..

but of course these traits come in varying ranges ...not all men are sexually overdriven humans but most men do have a more active sexual tendency ...
and though many would think that homosexual men are feminine in behaviour ..most of them are not and most consider themselves true males ...in fact most do act like any other straight male ...in fact some are even more masculine then heterosexual males ( some staight men are sometimes more like animals ..but it depends how u view it ) ...

They aren't the same?

Yeah, but what about those of us who can drink like vikings but aren't too keen on pillaging or rape?

Yeah, but what about those of us who can drink like vikings but aren't too keen on pillaging or rape?

Well you can be a sensitive new age Viking and get away without the rape, but no pillage is just so girly.

Well you can be a sensitive new age Viking and get away without the rape, but no pillage is just so girly.

I figured they just called us Poles.

You think? I thought Poland had quite a glorious martial history.

You think? I thought Poland had quite a glorious martial history.

Wot wot1? Where ye be a'hearin this?

The ability to not fly off the handle over lolcats....fuckers...

Did you miss the Moderation thread, where your "lolcat" was DELETED BY A MOD?

Here, let me quote it for you:

It certainly is NOT appropriate. Image deleted.

And perhaps you missed the explanation of why your "lolcat" was not appropriate for this forum:

Debate over. Pics of gore, maimed bodies, and death are strictly banned here, and we don't want them, period. Trollgard and the rest of the forums, myself included, don't need to see that. If you do, there are plenty of other forums where it's acceptable.



Obscene and Explicit Content: Sexually graphic images and posts, and violent images such as bloody corpses. Very strictly forbidden. Obscene imagery and content in the forums should be reported to the Moderation Forum. Please provide a link to the topic, but do not quote it while explaining its illegality. Then we have to find and delete your posts too.

The standard for both forums and game is the US movie rating "PG-13". Mild swearing may be tolerated, mild sexuality may be hinted, but explicit or excessive versions of either or both may result in proportional mod response.

People who have posted graphic images have been deleted before -- I would suggest NOT posting anything like that again.

Got that?

Sorry, had to put that out there...probably be my last bitchy post for a bit, just have to get my bitterness out of the system...

Perhaps you would like to be specific about which "fuckers" you think are "flying off the handle" ... it looks like flaming to me, and dissent from a very clear ruling given to you.

dissent from a very clear ruling given to you.

Just cause it was given to me, doesnt mean i have to like it...

Since when is Dissent illegal? If you cant argue the point then whats the point of having forums?

In fact, your dissenting from me by having that post, maybe you should be banned as well

Just cause it was given to me, doesnt mean i have to like it...

Since when is Dissent illegal? If you cant argue the point then whats the point of having forums?

In fact, your dissenting from me by having that post, maybe you should be banned as well

If you won't be specific about which poster you are calling "a fucker" -- more than one, apparently -- I will take it as a personal flame and report it.

If you won't be specific about which poster you are calling "a fucker" -- more than one, apparently -- I will take it as a personal flame and report it.

Wouldnt being specific make it a personal flame? therefore no one would be able to say anything that can even vaguely be termed an insult?

Wouldnt being specific make it a personal flame? therefore no one would be able to say anything that can even vaguely be termed an insult?

The label "fuckers" was applied to anyone who "flew off the handle" at your "lolcat" -- I was one of those who objected, therefore it applies to me.

And TWO MODS.

You seem to have a chronic inability to tell when you are in the wrong.

The label "fuckers" was applied to anyone who "flew off the handle" at your "lolcat" -- I was one of those who objected, therefore it applies to me.

And TWO MODS.

You seem to have a chronic inability to tell when you are in the wrong.

Actually, "the flew off the handle" part, was simply me saying what terms a man, in response to the thread...

The "fuckers" was applied to the fact that i was banned...

And, i find it insulting that your telling me specifically that i cant tell when im in the wrong...maybe i should report it as a personal flame...

Actually, "the flew off the handle" part, was simply me saying what terms a man, in response to the thread...

It's no more on-topic, than an offensive pic with a kitten in it is "a lolcat."

In your own words, describing the post: "my ... bitchy post" and "bitchiness."

The "fuckers" was applied to the fact that i was banned...

"Fucker" is offensive, and refers to a person.

Are you seriously saying that "fuckers" can be applied to a fact?

And, i find it insulting that your telling me specifically that i cant tell when im in the wrong...maybe i should report it as a personal flame...

Actually, I didn't. I said "you seem to" ... and by that, I refer to my own perception of you.

Functioning testicles.

Are you seriously saying that "fuckers" can be applied to a fact?


Yes it can, I ask you why cant it?

If i can say Bastard car...I can say Fuckers at a banning...

But, why do you care?, not only did i not want to get into this, having used the aforementioned post to get it off my chest, but it had nothing to do with you in the slightest....

Functioning testicles.

And being human, presumably.

It's still a bad definition. Testicles have more than one function.

Yes it can, I ask you why cant it?

You are being ridiculous. I will quote the relevant sentence of your post again:

The ability to not fly off the handle over lolcats....fuckers...

The sentence refers to people ... and you're claiming that the epithet applies to some fact not mentioned in the sentence? The implied fact of your own mood?

That is simply unsupportable. It's complete drivel!

You are being ridiculous. I will quote the relevant sentence of your post again:



The sentence refers to people ... and you're claiming that the epithet applies to some fact not mentioned in the sentence? The implied fact of your own mood?

That is simply unsupportable. It's complete drivel!

Again i ask you...Why do you care?

Just cause i dont like the fact that i was banned, doesnt mean i was personally insulting you...

In fact, i cant recall ever having seen you post till today...Where is it written that i cant be angry about getting banned? and why does it bother you so bad?

Do you just have nothing to do but get angry at people for getting angry?

Yes it can, I ask you why cant it?

If i can say Bastard car...I can say Fuckers at a banning...

Did you say banning?

Posting Past Forumban: If a nation is forumbanned, that nation's player is not permitted to post on the forums with other puppet nations. Such puppets may be deleted without notice, as may the puppet master and other identified puppets. If you can't figure out why you were banned, you can file a Getting Help request asking why. You may post on the behalf of a forumbanned player to ask, in "Moderation", why that player was forumbanned. You may not post on the behalf of a forumbanned player for any other reason.

If a nation is deleted for rule-breaking on the forums, the moderators may impose a forumban time in addition to the deletion. Failure to observe this forumban may result in a DoS order (see below).

If a ban is in place on Skalvia, you should not be posting claiming to be Skalvia.

And I shouldn't be conversing with you. Goodbye.

Did you say banning?



If a ban is in place on Skalvia, you should not be posting claiming to be Skalvia.

And I shouldn't be conversing with you. Goodbye.

I was told in an email by the nationstates moderating team that if i wish to make a new nation and continue posting and playing the game then i can...

Not to mention, thats all ive been asking for anyway, it was a lot of work to get to this point, lol...

Actually, in gendered languages there are some pretty interesting uses for genders...given the way some of them end up in German, it's a rather progressive shuffling of gender roles. ;)

German is the only non-English I know anything much about.

It seems to me that "gender" in German isn't really about some things being 'female' or 'male' -- it's essential to the grammar, to establish plurality and tense (and something else I forget). As far as I know, there isn't a consistent pattern of what things are what gender in the first place.

But I am curious about whether speakers of gendered languages use "wrong" gender for comic effect. Recognizing the word, initially thinking it is misused, and thereby having the attention directed to a second meaning is the essence of pun. I think it would be fun!