NationStates Jolt Archive

From the Baptism thread:


I guess the bottom line of my question is, do you believe salvation can be lost, or that it's permanent?

1. Once saved, always saved - if truly saved then you cannot lose your salvation. If you consistently "misbehave" it is reasonable to ask if you were ever "truly saved" though.

2. Physical baptism is not required in order to gain salvation, instead there must be an acknowledgement that you are a sinner and an honest repentance of all sin and a belief that Jesus paid the penalty for your sin by his death and resurrection.

This is the official position of Southern Baptists anyway.

Which is where Baptists differ from Pentecostals.

Well not necessarily. I know the baptist church I went to (free will baptist) believed that one could lose their salvation.

So let's discuss this topic. It is just about as controversial as the Baptism one, in Christian circles. I personally believe that one may lose their salvation. For proof of this, I often point to the man known as Demas. He was with Paul in several of Paul's epistles, being mentioned as a faithful servant and leader. However, in Paul's last letter, 2nd Timothy, we read this:

2nd Timothy 4:10

Demas had forsaken him, having loved this present world

So, this shows that even a believer that was strong in the faith (He was with Paul during the first imprisonment. A weaker believer would have fled early on.) can turn away and fall prey to the pleasures of this world. We also read in Hebrews these things:

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For the earth which brings in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned." (Hebrews 6:4-8)

And



"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31)


And in 2 Peter:

"For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Peter 2:20)

These verse all talk about the judgment regarding apostate Christians. They once knew the truth, yet turned their backs on that truth. How can one support the notion of OSAS, in light of these verses? It clearly states that there is the possibility of people knowing the truth of God (being believer of Christ) and then turning away to the world. It doesn't say anything about once saved, always saved.

Discuss.

One other thing that I forgot to mention:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' (Matthew 7:21)

I have always wrestled with this verse. But I think I understand it now. Notice the part about doing things in the name of Christ. I believe that this was pointed towards people who were in the category of losing their salvation. Imagine it is judgment day and an apostate stands before Christ and say "Lord, I did things in your name! Look at those people I witnessed to. Doesn't that count for anything?" And He will say to them "Depart from me". To whom? Those who lost their salvation.

the catholic answer first

what the hell does "saved" mean? going to heaven depends on the status of your soul at the time of your death.

the catholic answer first

what the hell does "saved" mean? going to heaven depends on the status of your soul at the time of your death.

Saved meaning: A person who has confessed that Christ is Lord, and has committed their life to following Him daily.

Turning away from this means to turn one's back on the sacrifice that Christ made, and to live in continual, un-repented sin, once again.

Better?

oh i know what it means its just irrelevant to the catholic way of thinking

There are at least two polar opposite ways of viewing the question, but I think most of it was addressed in the OP, actually, it's like you answered your own question sufficiently and left nothing for us ;)

But because you want an answer, here are two different ones, both true: Jesus cannot lose you. Satan cannot steal you away from God's grasp, it is not within his power to do so.

And the other answer, clearly a person CAN lose paradise and communion with God. Adam and Eve lost it. They had it, they lived it and then they lost it, if they did not lose it then there would be no reason for Jesus to redeem us back...

What is the difference? Satan can't steal us away from God, but we can choose to not be 'saved' by following a path and course of action that removes us from God's kingdom.

Is it faith + works? Is Jesus advocate insufficient for your sins? If so, why do you need it anyway? Can't you just be good enough? If you can't be good enough, then why do your sins matter at all? Is there a minimum level of "good enough" that you have to be? If there is, why don't all the people at that minimum level get into heaven without Christianity?

John 10:28-30 is often cited.

It was the general idea in the SB churches I went to that you can't be snatched away, but you might be able to jump. Backsliding is one thing, making a conscious choice to no longer follow Jesus is quite another.

Read the 2 Tim. 4:10 passage in context with the rest of the paragraph, verses 9 - 22. It's talking about how they had a falling out with each other on the direction of the ministry, like separating into denominations because of disagreements on points.

The chapters of Hebrews 4 and 10 are referring to this very argument, and the way I see it is saying that they heard, they may have even followed along for a little while, but their hearts were never really into it, like a person following an impulse or a fad.

2 Peter 2 is about false teachers, or heretics if you prefer. The key word that the passage of it that you refer to is knowledge. Knowledge is not interchangeable with faith. The demons and Satan have more knowledge about God and spiritual things than man, but that doesn't make them saved.

its not faith plus works, its faith minus sin.

faith does not prevent you from sinning. it does not give you a "get out of hell free" card so you can do as you please and are auto-forgiven.

you must repent of every sin and try to not sin in the future.

its not faith plus works, its faith minus sin.

faith does not prevent you from sinning. it does not give you a "get out of hell free" card so you can do as you please and are auto-forgiven.

you must repent of every sin and try to not sin in the future.

If you can live without sin, then why do you need Jesus? If Jesus died because you can't live without the occasional sin, then how are you supposed to live sin free?

Salvation is knowing that those you leave behind are richer for having known you.

you cant live sin free.

you confess your sins and receive the sacrament of reconcilliation and each sin is wiped from your slate as you do so. but it doesnt remove future sins--the church got into big trouble with that one in the renaissance.

Is it faith + works? Is Jesus advocate insufficient for your sins? If so, why do you need it anyway? Can't you just be good enough? If you can't be good enough, then why do your sins matter at all? Is there a minimum level of "good enough" that you have to be? If there is, why don't all the people at that minimum level get into heaven without Christianity?

John 10:28-30 is often cited.

It was the general idea in the SB churches I went to that you can't be snatched away, but you might be able to jump. Backsliding is one thing, making a conscious choice to no longer follow Jesus is quite another.

You also have to take into consideration the rest of the passage. Jesus had been asked a leading question for the purpose of getting Him to (in their point of view) blaspheme. The two verses preceding talk about people who have been shown but still don't follow with their heart. As in my other post, following on an impulse or fad has no spiritual merit.

I'm not going to debate OSAS vs. YSLYS (You Can Lose Your Salvation), but I will state why I believe what I believe and leave it at that.

I do not believe in OSAS as the SBC generally believes it. I believe in what OSAS was actually taken from: Perseverance of the Saints (and no, I'm not Calvinist... exactly.) OSAS, as I was raised to believe, is that if you "accept Jesus," then you're "saved" forever and you're a Christian no matter what. But this started to not make any sense to me. So I can accept Jesus, then go out and rob and steal and loot and kill, and still go to heaven?! Sweet! Then it dawned on me that perhaps in that scenario, true salvation was never accomplished; as in, the person really didn't mean it. I heard pastors say that once you became a Christian you couldn't just go out and do whatever you wanted to. But I had a problem with this, because that's exactly what most of the people in church on Sunday morning did on Friday and Saturday nights. And thus, to make a long story short, this is how I eventually came around to discovering the travesty that has become salvation in the modern American church. Just give intellectual assent to a few questions, and you're "saved."

Then, though, I started talking with others who believed it was possible to lose one's salvation. That it was possible to be "saved" and then do something to not be "saved." This bothered me sincerely. I will never make the claim that I am a good Christian. But it seemed that, according to this belief of losing one's salvation, that's exactly what you had to do if you wanted to stay saved. Hence, I was left feeling utterly confused, wondering what was right. I struggled with my doubts of salvation - while also wondering if I was even a Christian at all throughout all this.

I fear I have already divulged to greatly into my own, personal story of salvation, and therefore will not continue into this history.

I found that in Perseverance of the Saints (POTS), it states that one who truly comes to Christ, repentant, and receiving of salvation, then that one will continue in the faith until the end (death, or Christ's return). I enjoyed this idea much more than OSAS, as OSAS to me had always come across as, "Accept Jesus, get your 'fire insurance' policy, and you're cake!" POTS, however, meant something. It meant that one must endure, as Christ said many times.

But where is my evidence for POTS? Let me first state that there is valuable evidence for both YSLYS and POTS (or OSAS, if you must) throughout the Bible (more specifically, the NT). Zilam posted several good Scriptures for YCLYS, but I might also add James 5:19-20 and Galatians 5:4. However, my Scriptural evidence for POTS may be found in John 6:39-40, John 10:27-30, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, and my personal favorite, Romans 8:35-39.

One may ask, "If one believes in POTS or OSAS, why do they doubt their salvation?" (And if you wouldn't ask that, just go along with it. Doubting of salvation is a fairly common thing with most Christians.) Well, I can only attempt to answer this one. Over the last two years, I have had a very turbulent relationship with God, and has at many times resulted in my doubting of my own salvation. It was only recently that I came to grips with this problem, which I can only explain in my own opinion, not scientific or theological fact.

When one doubts salvation, I believe it may often be a time of turbulence between a person and God. I believe that the sin of man (even after he may become a Christian) may often interfere with an ongoing relationship with the Holy Spirit (or Ghost, or Dude, or whatever you want to call him. Please don't confuse this with the loss of salvation. Many people felt the loss of communion with God, not the least of these being David.). One of the questions I would often ask myself and others would be, "How can I be sure I'm a Christian? That I'm 'saved'?" And I would get a great multitude of different answers, not the least of them being, "You know you're saved if you follow God's commands." Great (not really, because there are many occaisions in which I fail miserably at following God's commands). But the more I looked to God, the more I found that the assurance of my salvation cannot come from myself, but only from Christ. If I am trying to assure myself that I am 'saved,' it is much the same as me trying to 'save' myself in the first place. My faith in Christ provides me with the assurance of salvation, not my following various rules or doing good deeds.

So... In a roundabout way of saying it, I do not believe one can lose their salvation, again, if it was true salvation to begin with (not like those silly Christian camps that get somebody on an emotional high and coerce them into saying a prayer to be "saved").

Zilam: On a side note, I'd like to comment on your thoughts on Matt. 7:21-23 real quick. I see your point. However, in my opinion of that verse, I believe Christ is referring to those who may believe they are "saved" but really never were in the first place. Perhaps like those who say some silly prayer and are led to believe they are Christians, but never truly repented and trusted in Christ as savior. At judgement, they may be confused and yell, "I said a freaking prayer to you!" and Jesus is all like, "So? A prayer has nothing to do with salvation!" and he presses the little red button and the person falls through the trap door into the fiery pits of hell. Just my thoughts on that verse, though.

This "salvation" thingy seems too complicated. You should all just be Catholic and just buy your way into heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgences).

Turning away from this means to turn one's back on the sacrifice that Christ made, and to live in continual, un-repented sin, once again.
Query:

I have most definitely 'turned my back on Christ', as I don't believe in Christianity any longer, but I certainly don't live "in continual, un-repented sin". Apart from those commandments dealing with God, I pretty much follow the Ten Commandments (i.e. dinnie kill, dinnie steal, dinnie shag your friend's wife; and although I don't worship the Christian God, I don't worship any 'false idols' either, indeed I don't worship anything.), and, very generally, follow the Golden Rule teaching in my life.

Now, I don't follow these things because they are in the Bible, or because Jesus/God supposedly said them, but it'd be completely uncharacteristic to say that I'm running around, revelling in naughty actions.

So, would you (or anybody else in this thread for that matter) distinguish between your characterisation of someone turning away above, and the notion of someone who 'turns away' but doesn't suddenly become a debauched lunatic?

Here's my question: since I'm going to Hell anyway for not believing in your imaginary being, what do I have to lose by going about it the funnest way possible?

Here's my question: since I'm going to Hell anyway for not believing in your imaginary being, what do I have to lose by going about it the funnest way possible?

I'd say your dignity, but...

From the Baptism thread:
It doesn't say anything about once saved, always saved.

Discuss.

There is no 'Salvation'. Not the way you spell it.

There are enough conflicts in the scripture that you can make a good argument for a lot of things. You just have to find the right verses. The problem is - if you believe 'The Bible' is the Word of God - it's a word, not a whole bunch of words. It's intended to be taken as a whole message, not torn into piecemeal and each piece wedged into some new creation.

And, if you take the message as a whole message, Jesus is the sacrificial lamb that is painted on the doorway of mankind so that the punishment of god can pass over us. The blood was spilled on the Earth, not on believers. All are redeemed in the sacrifice.

There is no 'Salvation'. Not the way you spell it.

There are enough conflicts in the scripture that you can make a good argument for a lot of things. You just have to find the right verses. The problem is - if you believe 'The Bible' is the Word of God - it's a word, not a whole bunch of words. It's intended to be taken as a whole message, not torn into piecemeal and each piece wedged into some new creation.

And, if you take the message as a whole message, Jesus is the sacrificial lamb that is painted on the doorway of mankind so that the punishment of god can pass over us. The blood was spilled on the Earth, not on believers. All are redeemed in the sacrifice.
yeah that is my non catholic answer.

god is outside of time so WHEN he makes it so that everyone is "saved" is irrelevant. this little glitch needed "fixing" and he fixed it himself with himself. when jesus died and rose again EVERYONE was redeemed.

...snip...
And, if you take the message as a whole message, Jesus is the sacrificial lamb that is painted on the doorway of mankind so that the punishment of god can pass over us. The blood was spilled on the Earth, not on believers. All are redeemed in the sacrifice.

Jesus didn't come to save the earth, his kingdom is not of this world, he made that abundantly clear. I agree that he is able to save all of mankind though, and in the same way the blood of the lamb could have saved all of Egypt's first borns too, but not everyone painted the blood on their doorways so not all of the first borns were saved, this time around doesn't appear to be any different. Surely you jest when you pretend that Jesus somehow implied that everyone would be saved, as if he never said some people would not end up in paradise...

Jews being thrown out... Matthew 8:12
while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The evil people being separated out... Matthew 13:47-50
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus didn't come to save the earth, his kingdom is not of this world, he made that abundantly clear. I agree that he is able to save all of mankind though, and in the same way the blood of the lamb could have saved all of Egypt's first borns too, but not everyone painted the blood on their doorways so not all of the first borns were saved, this time around doesn't appear to be any different. Surely you jest when you pretend that Jesus somehow implied that everyone would be saved, as if he never said some people would not end up in paradise...

Jews being thrown out... Matthew 8:12
while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The evil people being separated out... Matthew 13:47-50
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Well done. Totally missed the point. Seriously - couldn't have got further off if you'd stood ON it and fired a blunderbuss up in the air.

Evidence of exactly what I was saying, though. You have my thanks.

Well done. Totally missed the point. Seriously - couldn't have got further off if you'd stood ON it and fired a blunderbuss up in the air.

Evidence of exactly what I was saying, though. You have my thanks.

Oh I got your point alright, your point was to pull some fanciful tinfoil hat interpretation right out of your own butt and pretend like you managed to sum up the entirety of the scripture, despite the fact that the actual words of the scripture refute every single syllable of your sumation...

Oh I got your point alright, your point was to pull some fanciful tinfoil hat interpretation right out of your own butt and pretend like you managed to sum up the entirety of the scripture, despite the fact that the actual words of the scripture refute every single syllable of your sumation...

The actual words don't refute my summation. You can PICK a few words, ehre and there, that do - but the message of the WHOLE text, is as I described it. Love, charity - a personal relationship to God, a personal interpretation of the Word.

If you got anything else from the book, anything more confined, then you've never understood it. You are the Pharisee Jesus was talking about - full of the LETTER of the law, but blind to the SPIRIT.