NationStates Jolt Archive

http://wcbstv.com/cbs2crew/operation.sentinel.nypd.2.793133.html

They already have this in some areas of Washington DC, and I figured it was only a matter of time and money before it was elsewhere.

Truly, more so than the threat of terrorism, the coming of technology that actually makes widespread surveillance economically possible will drive this into more and more places.

Soon, you won't be able to exit your house (where in the US, you have some semblance of privacy unless the police take an interest in you) without being put on file. I foresee a time when you're applying for a security clearance, and they'll just pull the file that shows everywhere you've gone for the past 10 years, all the money you've spent, all the forums you've posted on, all the web pages you've visited, all the emails you've sent and received, all the phone calls you've made...

Does this level of surveillance actually make you feel safer? I feel that the data is only of use "after the fact" - that is, after something illegal has happened (as it was useful after the London tube bombing). Up until that moment occurs, I find that it's far more intrusive.

I also feel that some people will find ways to get around it (like smearing mud on their license plate).

1. When will you light on an Avatar?

2. The continued erosion of our privacy does not make me feel safe. Who's going to protect us from our government?

Oh damn, now I won't be able to take my suitcase full of plutonium rods into Lower Manhattan...

Seriously, would this affect anyone other than terrorists?

Aww, I thought New York was getting more parks and better buses.

I'm sure you don't like it DK, this actually has a chance of inconveniencing you.

I'm sure if it only affected muslims you'd have no problem with it.

"With terrorism today, I have no problem with them doing whatever they need to do," said Paul Salk of Long Branch, N.J.
Big brother is watching.

Seriously, would this affect anyone other than terrorists?Well, the money could be better spend than on ineffective security measures.
Burning dollar notes in an electricity plant would be better value for money.

I'm sure you don't like it DK, this actually has a chance of inconveniencing you.

I'm sure if it only affected muslims you'd have no problem with it.

Actually, it doesn't incovenience me at all.

I have permission to carry firepower to the places I go. That, and the police where I work and live have a VERY positive view of me.

The best reason I've seen to support the A.C.L.U.

Big brother is watching.

And saying that if you're not going to use the computer for homework, you better let him on soon?

oh how I suffer from CCTV! oh the agony! oh the torment!

wait...I actually don't even notice them and I really don't see the invasion of privacy/liberty/hours of film staring me playing with my balls :confused:

edit: though to be fair as far as I know only speed cameras can read license plate and...can you actually break the speed limit in New York?

Considering that state governments already have the license plates and VINs for every vehicle in the United States, it doesn't really seem like that big of a deal to monitor traffic going in and out of the city. License plates and vehicles are clearly visible to the public at almost any time they're on the road, so it's not like they need to install special monitoring equipment or invade the privacy of owners in order to get that information.

Don't people realize that if "terrorists" are really going to try to attack NYC again, they're going to find away around these so-called security measures?

After all, where there's a will, there is definitely a way.

Don't people realize that if "terrorists" are really going to try to attack NYC again, they're going to find away around these so-called security measures?

what I would do is attack by water though a few homemade mortars would cause complete havoc especially if it involves more than one location >.>

Don't people realize that if "terrorists" are really going to try to attack NYC again, they're going to find away around these so-called security measures?What is there to get around? There is no reason why this system would catch even one terrorist. Terrorist pretty much stick to the law until the moment they blow themselves and their surroundings up. They don't go around with a "I am a terrorist" bumper sticker.
How this system is supposed to stop a terrorist is beyond me.

What is there to get around? There is no reason why this system would catch even one terrorist. Terrorist pretty much stick to the law until the moment they blow themselves and their surroundings up. They don't go around with a "I am a terrorist" bumper sticker.
How this system is supposed to stop a terrorist is beyond me.

It isn't. It's supposed to contribute to an ever increasing cycle of paranoia in a once free country.l

I've lived in New York City all my life, and you know what? I really don't think about terrorism anymore. I get on the bus or the subway, I drive over bridges, I drive through tunnels....

No point worrying about it anyhow. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, no number of ulcers or years of worry will have the slightest difference.

How to make New York more like London is have hundreds of stabbings per year, with most of the deaths involving teenagers.

And saying that if you're not going to use the computer for homework, you better let him on soon?
I lol'd at this.:tongue:
It isn't. It's supposed to contribute to an ever increasing cycle of paranoia in a once free country.l
yeah, I was wondering how knowing the license plate number of a guy who blew himself up is gonna help. Well, if there's anything left...

I've lived in New York City all my life, and you know what? I really don't think about terrorism anymore. I get on the bus or the subway, I drive over bridges, I drive through tunnels....

No point worrying about it anyhow. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, no number of ulcers or years of worry will have the slightest difference.

Absolutely correct! :fluffle:

And the camera stuff will prevent another airplane crash on another Freedom Tower?

It doesn't help anything.

And the camera stuff will prevent another airplane crash on another Freedom Tower?

It doesn't help anything.

We'll get a nice shot of the plane as it approaches.

We'll get a nice shot of the plane as it approaches.

So CNN is behind all this? ;)

How to make New York more like London is have hundreds of stabbings per year, with most of the deaths involving teenagers.

bla bla bla bla bla

Yeah, New York would hate to have London's lower murder rate.

That thought scares the shit out of me...

Skalvia does not want a "Big Brother"...

bla bla bla bla bla

Yeah, New York would hate to have London's lower murder rate.


You're catching up, and you have far more robberies and burglaries....
but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a cheap shot.

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritvsUSA.htm

You're catching up, and you have far more robberies and burglaries....
but hey, don't let the facts get in the way of a cheap shot.

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritvsUSA.htm

Right. Don't let the facts get in the way of the cheap shot.

Except that the cheap shot was at London for its murder rate. Spare me links to sites with phrases like "dogmas of gun control zealots" - it wasn't as if that was a long quote chain to follow.

Right. Don't let the facts get in the way of the cheap shot.

Except that the cheap shot was at London for its murder rate. Spare me links to sites with phrases like "dogmas of gun control zealots" - it wasn't as if that was a long quote chain to follow.

Ah, well, London is perfect, the crime rate is not rising, and you don't have more robberies, burglaries, and chavs stabbing people than in NYC.

In other news, water is dry and the sky is green.

Don't like that article? Try this one: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/ny-fares-well-vs-london-in-a-new-study/83495/

Ah, well, London is perfect, the crime rate is not rising, and you don't have more robberies, burglaries, and chavs stabbing people than in NYC.

In other news, water is dry and the sky is green.

Don't like that article? Try this one: http://www.nysun.com/new-york/ny-fares-well-vs-london-in-a-new-study/83495/

I have no idea how you managed to get from me pointing out that mocking London's murder rate as unusual and exorbitant the context of a city that happens to have a higher murder rate is misguided to me claiming that London is perfect and the sky is green. Well, I do - you got the wrong and of the stick and now you won't step back and admit it with dignity.

I've lived in New York City all my life, and you know what? I really don't think about terrorism anymore. I get on the bus or the subway, I drive over bridges, I drive through tunnels....

No point worrying about it anyhow. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, no number of ulcers or years of worry will have the slightest difference.Precisely. :)

I'll be honest. CCTV, you never notice it, Chances are, with hundreds of thousands of people going past at the same camera each day they aren't going to get a good shot of you.

Here's the killer. The majority are not monitored!

You think some guy is going to sit and watch a screen 24/7? Yes, some are monitored. but generally, the film is only looked it if a crime is reported. CCTV features heavily in most of Europe. Well the places I've been. (France, Holland, Belgium, Turkey and Germany. All but Turkey had vast amounts of cameras that I could see. but Turkish police had machine guns and drove around in armoured cars...)

Don't you people know how terrorism works?! If you can see the terrorists they can't attack you.

Don't you people know how terrorism works?! If you can see the terrorists they can't attack you.

So they're more or less the opposite of the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal?

And the camera stuff will prevent another airplane crash on another Freedom Tower?

It doesn't help anything.

Seriously. Based on precedent the cameras ought to be up here in Boston.

edit: though to be fair as far as I know only speed cameras can read license plate and...can you actually break the speed limit in New York?

There is a ring of ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) cameras around London. It's impossible to drive in (or out) without having your plate checked. They were thought up during the IRA days, but weren't installed until the end really.

I have no idea how you managed to get from me pointing out that mocking London's murder rate as unusual and exorbitant the context of a city that happens to have a higher murder rate is misguided to me claiming that London is perfect and the sky is green. Well, I do - you got the wrong and of the stick and now you won't step back and admit it with dignity.


1) You're not making sense. Could you perhaps add the words you forgot? Some punctuation, perhaps?

2) Nice. You mock NY's murder rate, I tell you London's catching up and that their robbery and burglary rates are higher than ours, and you act like I somehow didn't understand.

Talk about undignified.

There is a ring of ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) cameras around London. It's impossible to drive in (or out) without having your plate checked. They were thought up during the IRA days, but weren't installed until the end really.

Well, they weren't thought up in the IRA days. They were brought in as part of the congestion charging system, AFAIK.

oh how I suffer from CCTV! oh the agony! oh the torment!

wait...I actually don't even notice them and I really don't see the invasion of privacy/liberty/hours of film staring me playing with my balls :confused:

edit: though to be fair as far as I know only speed cameras can read license plate and...can you actually break the speed limit in New York?

See, one thing I've noticed from reading NSG over the many years is that Americans, in general (yeah, screw me for generalising if you want, I'm perfectly aware than I am), are far more afraid of their government than most (yeah, another generalisation, what are you gonna do?) Europeans are.

1) You're not making sense. Could you perhaps add the words you forgot? Some punctuation, perhaps?

2) Nice. You mock NY's murder rate, I tell you London's catching up and that their robbery and burglary rates are higher than ours, and you act like I somehow didn't understand.

Talk about undignified.

I missed the word 'in'. I don't think it's too much to ask for you to be able to have worked your way around that tiny obstacle.

No, I didn't mock NY's murder rate. I pointed this out in the very post you are quoting. Someone mocked London's murder rate within the context of New York's murder rate. I pointed out that this is a stange thing to do because New York has a higher murder rate - basically saying that the poster was lacking a sense of perspective.

You then saw fit to take this as an insult to New York and act like I said London was a crime free paradise. If you can show me where I "mock NY's murder rate" then I will gladly say sorry and if not, you can say sorry.

See, one thing I've noticed from reading NSG over the many years is that Americans, in general (yeah, screw me for generalising if you want, I'm perfectly aware than I am), are far more afraid of their government than most (yeah, another generalisation, what are you gonna do?) Europeans are.

Be fair, everyone else is scared of the American government too.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13918002&postcount=24

Yes, "blah blah blah" is absolutely not mocking.

I foresee a time when you're applying for a security clearance, and they'll just pull the file that shows everywhere you've gone for the past 10 years, all the money you've spent, all the forums you've posted on, all the web pages you've visited, all the emails you've sent and received, all the phone calls you've made...

You do realize all this information is already logged...right? I mean, banks keep transaction records, Google and your own hard drive keeps records of pages you've visited; webmail servers will undoubtedly have backup copies of all emails sent and received, and your phone calls are recorded and logged by the phone company.

And deleting these pages and emails and files is not as any computer geek would tell you, a sure way of getting rid of the information; it's difficult, but other then physically destroying the hard drive disc itself, the files can still be recovered.

Honestly, you're pretty out of it if you haven't realized this already.

1984 isn't going to come about because of new technology, or cameras keeping watch, no, it's going to come about because of people like you Hotwife, who go through life with a minimal of understanding of the world, who allow themselves to be duped by posers and fools who lie to their faces and believe them.

So give it a rest.



I also feel that some people will find ways to get around it (like smearing mud on their license plate).
Isn't covering your license plate illegal?

Well, they weren't thought up in the IRA days. They were brought in as part of the congestion charging system, AFAIK.

Nope. The congestion system is central London(ish). The ANPR ring surrounds the M25. Totally separate systems. I'll try to dig up some info.



*edit*

I think this is the non-congestion stuff. I could be wrong though.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Advice/TrafficTravel/numberplate.htm

Nope. The congestion system is central London(ish). The ANPR ring surrounds the M25. Totally separate systems. I'll try to dig up some info.

All I've previously read about this is that it was a trial program (outside of the London congestion zone, where it was a permanent thing to make congestion charging possible) that was spread across all police forces, with a view to making it a major thing on motorways, filling stations, etc.

I could be out of date on my reading, though, I do have more important things to read.

EDIT: The link (http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Advice/TrafficTravel/numberplate.htm) in your post is to do with the Corporation of London, which is in charge of the "square mile" in the very middle of Greater London; the actual City of London (yes, London itself is almost exactly one square mile), not to do with the GLA.

All I've previously read about this is that it was a trial program (outside of the London congestion zone, where it was a permanent thing to make congestion charging possible) that was spread across all police forces, with a view to making it a major thing on motorways, filling stations, etc.

I could be out of date on my reading, though, I do have more important things to read.

Well, the perimeter has been running for years iirc. I get a little tingle every time I enter London ;)

(check last edited post for link)

Yeah, I've updated my post to reflect your edit.

What you are referring to operates on the premiter of the actually only one square mile City of London, run by the Corporation of London, as opposed to Greater London, run by the Greater London Authority.

The City is almost exactly one square mile, right in the middle of Greater London, and that's actually London. The rest is just...Greater London, the "suburbs". What you're referring to is only in the City, as far as I can see.

Yeah, I've updated my post to reflect your edit.

What you are referring to operates on the premiter of the actually only one square mile City of London, run by the Corporation of London, as opposed to Greater London, run by the Greater London Authority.

The City is almost exactly one square mile, right in the middle of Greater London, and that's actually London. The rest is just...Greater London, the "suburbs". What you're referring to is only in the City, as far as I can see.

Hm. Missed that. I'll keep looking. I'm fairly certain that there is a larger one.

Can't remember where I originally read it though.

What is there to get around? There is no reason why this system would catch even one terrorist. Terrorist pretty much stick to the law until the moment they blow themselves and their surroundings up. They don't go around with a "I am a terrorist" bumper sticker.
How this system is supposed to stop a terrorist is beyond me.

Yeah, I know. But a lot of the public thinks things that infringe on liberties will help catch terrorists:rolleyes:

And deleting these pages and emails and files is not as any computer geek would tell you, a sure way of getting rid of the information; it's difficult, but other then physically destroying the hard drive disc itself, the files can still be recovered.Not if you use a secure erasure tool. There is a limit to how many rewrites back they can recover a bit from your hard drive. So repeatedly overwriting the same space with random data effectively removes every trace of what was there.
Aside from that you can use whole-disk encryption, and deniable encrypted volumes (which means someone looking at your disk cannot even see there is an encrypted partition there).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13918002&postcount=24

Yes, "blah blah blah" is absolutely not mocking.

Of course it's mocking. It's mocking the lack of perspective of somebody who is mocking London's murder rate. The post being replied to is CLEARLY more about London than New York unless the reader brings his or her own persecution complex to the table.

Aww, I thought New York was getting more parks and better buses.

Yeah, me too. :(

There is no constitutional right to public anonymity. A right to personal privacy is not synonymous with the ability to travel in public and not be recognized when you travel though public places. It has always been like that. If you traveled through a town the public authority may or may not recognize you, know where you might or might not be traveling to, AND may or may not think that your behavior is (or is not) suspicious activity that arouses their interests. If Sheriff 'Andy' knows everyone that lives in Mayberry and he sees some new or unexpected activity out of someone, he would be well within his rights to mosey on over and ask a few questions or send ol' Barney out after them to gather some more information. Andy's ability to protect Mayberry is directly related to knowing who is in it and what they do and what they normally do, otherwise he would never recognize a new person or suspicious activity...

Modern technology has not changed this, it has just increased the ability of the public authorities to watch larger multitudes of people and different activities. Go to a larger metropolitan airport parking ramp, enter, use your credit card etc., to enter and then leave again. Notice that your license plate is on your receipt. Who put the license plate there? The automated system did, it's no secret, they have the right and the responsibility to know who is in their ramp and who is using the airport, what time they got there, and what time they left. This technology is getting good enough now that entire downtown districts can be covered by similar systems. It's not 'scary,' its turning every town into Mayberrys, a town with a sheriff that can recognize everyone.