NationStates Jolt Archive

I began this thread to see what other NS players think of the Basque Country, the ETA, and other Basque related stuff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people#Political_conflicts

telegram me if you are Basque or of Basque ancestry or w/e

The Basque should be a colony of Britain.

I'm a pretty strong supporter in self-governance. I'm not sure why people are so desperate to keep people subjugated to 'the whole nation' rather than decentralise power. Well, I am actually pretty sure why, I just don't support it.

75-95% of British and Irish (genetic) matches derive from Iberia...Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the Britain and Ireland have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples...

why should they be a colony to Britain, or any other country as a matter of fact. hell, no one even knows where they originally came from

75-95% of British and Irish (genetic) matches derive from Iberia...Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the Britain and Ireland have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples...

why should they be a colony to Britain, or any other country as a matter of fact. hell, no one even knows where they originally came from

We all come from Africa dearie, according to the Scientists. Acording to the Bible we're all from Noah.

Let's give texas freedom instead. They have to take dubya and cheney with it, though.

We all come from Africa dearie, according to the Scientists. Acording to the Bible we're all from Noah.

dont know if this contraticts what you said but it sure is interesting

www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

dont know if this contraticts what you said but it sure is interesting

www.aoi.com.au/bcw/neanderbasque.htm

Given how much everyone has moved around since then I don't think thats very relevant.

oh well, said it was interesting, neer suggested it was true :)

oh well, said it was interesting, neer suggested it was true :)

granted.

i would have to vote "its none of my business"

the politics of spain is too complicated for a casual outsider to have a proper opinion of basque independence.

if that is what you meant by "freedom"

i dont think that basques should be .... unfree.

i would have to vote "its none of my business"

the politics of spain is too complicated for a casual outsider to have a proper opinion of basque independence.

if that is what you meant by "freedom"

i dont think that basques should be .... unfree.

Isn't it also part of France?

Isn't it also part of France?
*shrug*

all the more complicated then.

Isn't it also part of France?

No. Basque country is an autonomous, "historical" region(See the 1978 constitution), of Spain. I personally believe that the way they are living now is good enough for them. They are able to be autonomous, BUT they have a back up with the Spanish Kingdom. Sounds like a good plan to me.

75-95% of British and Irish (genetic) matches derive from Iberia...Ireland, coastal Wales, and central and west-coast Scotland are almost entirely made up from Iberian founders, while the rest of the non-English parts of the Britain and Ireland have similarly high rates. England has rather lower rates of Iberian types with marked heterogeneity, but no English sample has less than 58% of Iberian samples...

why should they be a colony to Britain, or any other country as a matter of fact. hell, no one even knows where they originally came from

Can you source that, because only the Irish and Scottish Celts have CeltIberian ancestry as far as I know, and English genes tend to match, depending on the part of the country, Norwegians, Germans, Danes and Dutch the closest.

No. Basque country is an autonomous, "historical" region(See the 1978 constitution), of Spain. I personally believe that the way they are living now is good enough for them. They are able to be autonomous, BUT they have a back up with the Spanish Kingdom. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Shouldn't that be up to them?

No. Basque country is an autonomous, "historical" region(See the 1978 constitution), of Spain. I personally believe that the way they are living now is good enough for them. They are able to be autonomous, BUT they have a back up with the Spanish Kingdom. Sounds like a good plan to me.
I know I'm being a pedant, but the Basque Country and the Basque Autonomous Community aren't the same thing. The Basque Country itself includes bits of Navarre and France. And if they want to be independent, I don't really see why not. Ditto Catalonia and Scotland.

I wish Nanatsu were here to give her perspective.

I grew up in Central California where a lot of Basque people settled, so I knew a few growing up. Of course they deserve self-governance. Just like the Armenians, the Georgians, the Tibetans.

No. Basque country is an autonomous, "historical" region(See the 1978 constitution), of Spain. I personally believe that the way they are living now is good enough for them. They are able to be autonomous, BUT they have a back up with the Spanish Kingdom. Sounds like a good plan to me.

Considering you're not Basque, what sounds good "to you" really doesn't seem relevant, unless you think that your opinion as someone from the outside completely seperate from the situation should actually count.

Which, actually, would be pretty par for the course from you.

I'm fairly certain that most Basque don't want full independence but varying degrees of autonomy. ETA seem to be trying to force a situation that most people don't want.

Can you source that, because only the Irish and Scottish Celts have CeltIberian ancestry as far as I know, and English genes tend to match, depending on the part of the country, Norwegians, Germans, Danes and Dutch the closest.

They recently did a large scale study, English genes do have significant portions of celtic genetic make-up in them. When the Saxons, the Angels and the Vikings invaded they mostly took over the top layers of society and intermingled with the Celts rather than wiping them out or forcing them out (although they did overtake their culture).

I'm a pretty strong supporter in self-governance. I'm not sure why people are so desperate to keep people subjugated to 'the whole nation' rather than decentralise power. Well, I am actually pretty sure why, I just don't support it.
Thank you. That saves me spending any time in putting my thoughts on the subject into words :)

No no no. If those Basques have their freedom then the Catalonians will cry for 'freedom' as well. And if Barcelona can`t beat the *ss anymore of Real Madrid then who will do the trick?

Considering you're not Basque, what sounds good "to you" really doesn't seem relevant, unless you think that your opinion as someone from the outside completely seperate from the situation should actually count.

Which, actually, would be pretty par for the course from you.


Oh, right. I suppose no one can give their opinion on NSG anymore! Good job. I mean, never mind the poll options give way for our opinion. So I suppose I shouldn't have voted either. And nice way to post a personal attack.

Stay classy.

I know I'm being a pedant, but the Basque Country and the Basque Autonomous Community aren't the same thing. The Basque Country itself includes bits of Navarre and France. And if they want to be independent, I don't really see why not. Ditto Catalonia and Scotland.

Yeah, that's my bad. I know the difference. I had a whole year of study on the history of Spain, in one of my Spanish class. The teacher decided to focus a whole lot on the Basque people.

Anyways, independence is nice and fun and all that, the only problem I have is that many of these regions that want to separate from their current countries often face the dilemma of failed or failing state status. And those failed or failing states usually hurt their neighbors, and those that invest in them, causing even more problems. For example, lets say that the Basque people are independent, and the international community pours some aid into their nation to help them try to be stable. A few years go on, and then an economic crisis hits. The gov't is still a little fresh, and so it doesn't necessarily know how to handle these type of situations. Let's say that the populace then puts pressure on the gov't and it eventually collapses. Then what? You'll have refugees flooding into neighboring nations, causing all the typical type of problems that come with refugees.

Now, while I know that is a bit of a "what if" situation, it is something that should be considered when allowing a people their independence. I don't have a problem with people governing themselves, so long as they have the means, ability, and will to do so.

No. Basque country is an autonomous, "historical" region(See the 1978 constitution), of Spain. I personally believe that the way they are living now is good enough for them. They are able to be autonomous, BUT they have a back up with the Spanish Kingdom. Sounds like a good plan to me.

So If I invade it with the Imperial Forces I also attack Spain?

No.

For the same reasons that the Kosovans, South Ossetians and all of their ilk can hush. Countries shouldn't be based on the ethnic make-up of the population, and this is essentially what all of these issues are about.

One former CEO of Heineken (the one from the boring beer) introduced, 20 years ago, a plan to reshape the world in regions that reflect to the the ehnics.

People had a good laugh, but after all, it isn`t such a stupid idea. Afterall what do New Yorkers have in common with Californian people?

Put it to a vote. They want to stay part of a federal Spanish state, they want autonomy, they want complete independence - s'up to them and them alone.

/is Irish
/did not vote in poll

In theory: Give them a vote, if they want antimony which would probably screw there region/country in the short term, then let them.

In reality :But ultimately, as far as I know, they are part of Spain-ish. So really it’s up to the Spanish, and why would they give up a chunk of there country?

The ETA, bad as the IRA as far as I’m concerned, all participants should be taken out and shot.

Oh, right. I suppose no one can give their opinion on NSG anymore! Good job. I mean, never mind the poll options give way for our opinion.

You're free to hold opinions on pretty much any issue you want. I'm not going to stop you. However one should recognize when ones opinion is based on situations he pretty much knows nothing about. How would you know what a "good plan" for the basque people is when you're not Basque, and are not connected to that community at all.

Do you presume to speak for other people?

So I suppose I shouldn't have voted either.

That's entirely your choice, you can choose to form opinions about things you know nothing about. That's your personal cross to bear.

and nice way to post a personal attack.

I simply call it as I see it, and right now I'm seeing "persecution complex" on top of it.

Well I'd say yes but since they murder and kill people, I don't think ETA quite deserve to have a state.

Same for the IRA & Northern Ireland........And every other terrorist seperatist group in the world.

In theory: Give them a vote, if they want antimony which would probably screw there region/country in the short term, then let them.

In reality :But ultimately, as far as I know, they are part of Spain-ish. So really it’s up to the Spanish, and why would they give up a chunk of there country?

The ETA, bad as the IRA as far as I’m concerned, all participants should be taken out and shot.

Well I'd say yes but since they murder and kill people, I don't think ETA quite deserve to have a state.

Same for the IRA & Northern Ireland........And every other terrorist seperatist group in the world.

So, you're both saying that people who use violence as a part of achieving self determination and independence should be shot and/or don't deserve independence?

Well I'd say yes but since they murder and kill people, I don't think ETA quite deserve to have a state.

Same for the IRA & Northern Ireland........And every other terrorist seperatist group in the world.

Like Israel, USA and so many others?

Yep. Unless they're fighting some fascist style dictatorship which neither the IRA were or ETA are.

Yep. Unless they're fighting some fascist style dictatorship which neither the IRA were or ETA are.

So your answer is "Yeh, but...".

Why do you get to decide what is and isn't an oppressive regime?

When I decided to obviously. You have to define it somewhere.

Apart from police brutality, was it really so hard for the IRA to live in NI? Did they have to actually resort to blowing people up? Bloody Sunday was tragic but then they decided to go beyond the pale. I remember when they blew the Arndale up in Manchester. If they hadn't tipped the police off they'd have killed hundreds. We didn't blow up any Irish towns so the who the hell do they think they are?

Yep. Unless they're fighting some fascist style dictatorship which neither the IRA were or ETA are.

So the US Patriots in 1776 and the Israelis in 1948 were the same as the IRA and the ETA? Neither of them were fighting against a fascist dictatorship at the time.

So, you're both saying that people who use violence as a part of achieving self determination and independence should be shot and/or don't deserve independence? If I don’t agree with the cause, then yes. If I do agree with the cause then it’s a different matter

I have a double standard

When I decided to obviously. You have to define it somewhere.

Apart from police brutality, was it really so hard for the IRA to live in NI?
Seems like it was. And why have you just zeroed in on Northern Ireland? Why did you not include the fact that the Republic of Ireland won it's independence from the actions of the IRB/IRA.

Bloody Sunday was tragic but then they decided to go beyond the pale.
"Yeh, but..."

I remember when they blew the Arndale up in Manchester. If they hadn't tipped the police off they'd have killed hundreds. We didn't blow up any Irish towns so the who the hell do they think they are?
33 dead civilians would beg to differ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_and_Monaghan_bombings)

But your overall premise is "Those who commit violent acts in the name of independence, don't deserve it." Is that a fair and accurate summation?

No the US Patriots weren't terrorists. Just theiving gits. Although we were taxing them awfully high.

Isreal is a matter of their country being created and then attack by others. That's a different issue entirely.

No the US Patriots weren't terrorists. Just theiving gits. Although we were taxing them awfully high.

Isreal is a matter of their country being created and then attack by others. That's a different issue entirely.

Eh? They created it in someone else his or her garden.

Which had belonged to the Jews thousands of years before anyway IIRC.

Which had belonged to the Jews thousands of years before anyway IIRC.

Belonged? For the few Jews living there before 1948?

It was a huge mistake to create Israel in that corner of the world. IMHO Israel should be created in Germany after WWII.

`We` (French, Belgians, Dutch, ...) all received some German pieces of land, why did they not dedicated some land for the Jews?

Because Isreal is their historic home anyway.

Historic? So all white and black Americans should leave their country. Because historically it`s not theirs.

The problems of sticking it right in Germany are many. Especially when many of them at the time were potential anti-Semites. Why give them any more excuses by taking their land and giving it to them?

Besides, it's also created us a strategic bulwark in the ME.

They should be independent if they want to be, but I can see how Spain might object. So if I were Basque, I'd write up a declaration of independence in Euskara and submit it to appropriate officials, then spend the 10 years or so it takes to translate the thing building up my defenses.

I grew up in Central California where a lot of Basque people settled, so I knew a few growing up. Of course they deserve self-governance. Just like the Armenians, the Georgians, the Tibetans.

Hee. I was going to say, let them take Bakersfield! Please. We'll pay them?

People had a good laugh, but after all, it isn`t such a stupid idea. Afterall what do New Yorkers have in common with Californian people?

Arrogance.

Arrogance.

It's not arrogance, it's merely the realization that the only states that matter are ones on the ocean.

And not even all of them. I'm looking at you south carolina!