NationStates Jolt Archive

Me and the gang are writing a wargaming/roleplaying setting. It's intended to be gritty as hell. As in, when you get shot it's usually the end of that character for awhile. Anyway, I was just wondering what other gamers wanted to see in a wargame and/or roleplaying game? What sort of thing do you not see often?

The wargame is in the 6mm or 1/300th scale for the time being, with plans to introduce skirmish level and space and air warfare systems to the line up later on. So if you have any ideas for unique aliens, character classes or units...feel free to speak up.

Since you're talking about board gamers, i feel it's necessary to mention flesh. That'll undoubtedly be the biggest hook to your intended audience.

If you can't do a whole move including any record keeping in less than two minutes I'm going to slump back in my chair and chant "Booooooooooooorrrrrrrrr-rrrrrrriiiiiiiinnnnngggg!"

So many custom games get so caught up in minutia that the game becomes tedious. To paraphrase Art Blakey, anyone can make a game no one can play...

I'd like to see something that DOESN'T use a d6 as the primary variable.

Warhammer and 40K use that about as well as it can be; but the simple fact is that a six-sider has a very limited amount of variability - the chance of rolling any particular number is equal to .15 approximately, and nothing can be less that probable.

A bell curve system would be better (say, 2d6 or 2d10), making outliers unlikely instead of equally probable, also.

Finally, I'd like to see a mechanism that makes units under fire less acurate than units that are unengaged, in a nod to real life.

something tha gives you the freedom like Tunnels and trolls used to do

Take a look at Privateer Press' Warmachine/Hordes game system, they've kept it pretty straight forwards (thus easy to learn and play) and they use 2d6.

The initial ideas I had were the use of a D20 and to keep games quick. Of course, there'll be a shit load of optional rules...like atrocities and other fun things like that.

With the myriad of game systems already on the market it's a constant mystery to me why people continue to write new ones.

My gaming club is afflicted with this. My son as well as one of the other gamers in our group are each working on their own separate roleplaying game.

Why not do 25mm and have it historical miniatures? xD

With the myriad of game systems already on the market it's a constant mystery to me why people continue to write new ones.

My gaming club is afflicted with this. My son as well as one of the other gamers in our group are each working on their own separate roleplaying game.

For squad level combat, it's hard to beat ASL. But for individual combat, none of them are terribly accurate (most of them written by people who have never been in a firefight and have no real idea how firearms work).

Most people eventually stumble across the misconceptions written in the rules, and want to change them - and eventually come up with their own system.

Personally I like MechWarrior: Age of Destruction. It's not perfect, but it plays fast and I've got tons of units to choose from.

Personally I like MechWarrior: Age of Destruction. It's not perfect, but it plays fast and I've got tons of units to choose from.

Me too; I use to play MageKnights too, but I fear both MechWarrior and MageKnights have ether basically died (MechWarrior) or completely (MageKnights)

:(

I'm still playing weekly with a few comrades, but it's true that the whole WizKids-approved competition thing has ceased to be. Not that it's a problem for us, since we usually like to play big battles. The last weeks we have been playing 2700 points battles, you would be amazed at the sheer numbers of 'Mechs that we field.

I'm still playing weekly with a few comrades, but it's true that the whole WizKids-approved competition thing has ceased to be. Not that it's a problem for us, since we usually like to play big battles. The last weeks we have been playing 2700 points battles, you would be amazed at the sheer numbers of 'Mechs that we field.

It is for me, the number of players is rather small and we only ever got together for tournies :(

If you all live in the same area, you could try to get the lads together for some intense sessions of casual gaming. Create your own scenarios!

With the myriad of game systems already on the market it's a constant mystery to me why people continue to write new ones.

My gaming club is afflicted with this. My son as well as one of the other gamers in our group are each working on their own separate roleplaying game.
You...You mean I'm not the only one? :(

For squad level combat, it's hard to beat ASL. But for individual combat, none of them are terribly accurate (most of them written by people who have never been in a firefight and have no real idea how firearms work).

Most people eventually stumble across the misconceptions written in the rules, and want to change them - and eventually come up with their own system.

The problem is such people usually have even less real knowledge of a firefight than the people behind the existing games.

"Dude! When you get hit by a bullet you should totally have to roll to see how many feet it knocks you back!"
"Awesome!"

:rolleyes:

You...You mean I'm not the only one? :(

Apparently not, though we would seem to be in the minority.

Apparently not, though we would seem to be in the minority.

Good! That means I still have a chance! *Continues*

Me too; I use to play MageKnights too, but I fear both MechWarrior and MageKnights have ether basically died (MechWarrior) or completely (MageKnights)

:(

MechWarrior click base gaming is the reason I now despise WizKid Games.

Give me Battletech on the hex maps.

hey NB, speaking of tabletop games, how are those VC working for ya?

hey NB, speaking of tabletop games, how are those VC working for ya?

Rather well, actually. We had a game on Saturday in which I learned to use Invocation of Nehek to drop little zombie units to and fro and by so doing I held up a unit of 12 Blood Crushers on one side (by flanking it) and a Bloodthirster on the other (flanking it too).

I also learned *NOT* to create a unit of zombies in front of an enemy unit with an allied unit behind the zombies. Overrun is such a terrible way to go...

There is definately a split between the players who need those insane
details like;

( Rolls a 1 on constitution, " Oh your soldier gets trench foot! Roll agian to see if we need to amputate. " )

and
" You are all standing a dark filthy trench. The enemy is 100 yards over the No Man's land. You hear the sounds of sporadic rifle fire and the near
constant scream of artillery and Mortar shells falling around your possition.
Make a Power / fortitude check "

Some folks need books of statistics and data sheets to tell them if their character became scared and crapped bricks or if he just started screaming
out "WHERE'S MY ARM?!" when he's un-injured.

Most of us just say oh I failed my ( what ever roll ) and insert our own idea
as to how horrific our failure was.

Too much detail can really kill a game's fun.
I opted out of playing I.C.E. with the wensday group for that reason
( Iron Crown Enterpises )

But I love 2nd Addition AD&D, I was born and Raised First and second addition.

And Call of Cthulhu has a good system for most things you might do as
a normal human being. But it isn't all encompassing.
On the opposite is GURPS who has sort of become the Godzilla of gaming.
It tries to envelop every possible type of game world from Sci-fi to the whole
multitude of Fantasy games.
But in the end it doesn't really do them well because there was too much time
spent writing rules and not enough time testing how they would react with
each other.

Oh and as for scale I too would advise something more like 1 inch or 25mm
as it's pretty common ( I think ).
And if you are going to make it a military style soldiers shooting and what not you'll need a size that has LOTS of military vehicles and stuff in that scale.
It will help you save money on development latter on if you plan on mass marketing as opposed to just you and your friends playing.
If you do go through with it as a commersial idea I'd be glad to help you.
I know a bit about firearms. Own them, clean them, swap them.

Too much detail can really kill a game's fun.


That reminds me of Twilight:2000.

Even something as simple as a shooter firing a short burst at a target. It went something like this:

-Skill check to see if the firer will hit the target
-Roll for possible jam
-Roll for how many rounds from the burst hit the target.
-Of the rounds that miss, roll to see if any of them hit someone behind the target
-Of the rounds that hit, roll hit locations for each round
-Roll for the effects of each hit location
-If there's body armor, add a point of blunt impact
-Roll to see if target remains conscious
-Roll to see if target remains alive
-Roll for possible infection at the site of each wound.

That's a bit too detailed.


But I love 2nd Addition AD&D, I was born and Raised First and second addition.

ADVANCED Dungeons & Dragons FTW!

That reminds me of Twilight:2000.

Even something as simple as a shooter firing a short burst at a target. It went something like this:

-Skill check to see if the firer will hit the target
-Roll for possible jam
-Roll for how many rounds from the burst hit the target.
-Of the rounds that miss, roll to see if any of them hit someone behind the target
-Of the rounds that hit, roll hit locations for each round
-Roll for the effects of each hit location
-If there's body armor, add a point of blunt impact
-Roll to see if target remains conscious
-Roll to see if target remains alive
-Roll for possible infection at the site of each wound.

That's a bit too detailed.

Holy crap! Why not roll to see what kind of infection it is too?:tongue:

Me too; I use to play MageKnights too, but I fear both MechWarrior and MageKnights have ether basically died (MechWarrior) or completely (MageKnights)

:(

The problem I found with MechWarrior is that Tanks and Infantry were cheaper and thus more favorable than mech units. and until the first major overhaul of the rules, infantry could swarm a mech and do considerably more damage to the mech than the mech could do to the infantry.


as for ideas... Claydonia (http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~gaming/archive_claydonia.html). forget lead or pewter... Playdough is the new weapon of choice!

I've ran this as a side thing in several RPG tourneys and got bigger audences than the offical games! ;)

That reminds me of Twilight:2000.

Even something as simple as a shooter firing a short burst at a target. It went something like this:

-Skill check to see if the firer will hit the target
-Roll for possible jam
-Roll for how many rounds from the burst hit the target.
-Of the rounds that miss, roll to see if any of them hit someone behind the target
-Of the rounds that hit, roll hit locations for each round
-Roll for the effects of each hit location
-If there's body armor, add a point of blunt impact
-Roll to see if target remains conscious
-Roll to see if target remains alive
-Roll for possible infection at the site of each wound.

That's a bit too detailed.

and that reminds me of HarnMaster.

Holy crap! Why not roll to see what kind of infection it is too?:tongue:

We played that game ONCE. We realized, after taking half an hour to resolve one round of combat, that it was time to go back to AD&D.

and that reminds me of HarnMaster.

What's that?

What's that?
HarnMaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A2rnMaster)

The game where the Hips are the most armored part of the body due to armor layering (your chain shirt drapes down to your thighs, your leggings are attached at the belt, and so your hips have two layers of armor. :tongue:

The game where swimming isn't just a skill, but necessary for suvival (the mud... oh GODS THE MUD!!!) [where we played, it rained for months on end] :p

The game where it's not the combat that kills you, it's the infections of the wounds you got that do you in.

MechWarrior click base gaming is the reason I now despise WizKid Games.

Give me Battletech on the hex maps.

I've played that too, but MechWarrior allows you to fight larger scale battles in a fraction of the time needed for a similar game of BattleTech.

I've played that too, but MechWarrior allows you to fight larger scale battles in a fraction of the time needed for a similar game of BattleTech.

... oh hell no. BTech was faster by hours.

We are talking about the same BattleTech, right? *grabs BattleTech Compendium: The Rules Of Warfare to make sure*

We are talking about the same BattleTech, right? *grabs BattleTech Compendium: The Rules Of Warfare to make sure*

the one where you have to shoot of every bit of outer armor before taking out the internal structure?

the one that the basic game came with the cardboad figures?

the one that had all those unlicenced Japanese Anime mechs that suddenly had to be written out due to the lawsuits against FASA?

yep.

because
1) mechs that recieve 20+ damage in one barrage have to make a piloting roll or fall
2) mechs have to make overheating rolls...even while cooling down.
3) critical hits can mean cockpit/pilot hit or even engine hits. in Mechwarrior, Critical hit was only one more click of damage.
4) a mech's leg can be shot out putting that mech out of the fight. in MechWarrior no such situation.
5) a mech can be shot to shit and still be standing yet out of the fight
6) out of ammo. nuff said.
7) Headshots mean pilot damage. three headshots can leave the pilot dead.
8) Pre-CASE battles ended much faster after the ammo was hit. :D
9) bad roll on a MASE (?) would immobilize the mech.

That's the thing that annoyed me so much about the clicky MechWarrior. Some of the truly unique elements that made Battletech what it is are:

Heat management
The ability to customize 'mechs
ANY 'mech could Alpha Strike, it wasn't a special ability on Atlases.
When we played we didn't use the cardboard 'mechs we used actual miniatures

I've got quite a few actual miniatures myself. However, it seems like you haven't seen much of the MechWarrior miniature wargame besides the first set. I notice you refer to the big blue Atlas with Alpha Strike. It's true that MechWarrior: Dark Age didn't have the ability to customize 'Mechs, but there were more 'Mechs than just that Atlas from the first set with Alpha Strike, trust me. Heat management has always been an important part of the MechWarrior-game, there's a special heat dial on the base of 'Mechs for that purpose. Usually it's rather fatal to have a shutdown 'Mech in the field during a game, not to mention the ammo explosions that can come from overheating your big robotic warmachine...

In MechWarrior: Age Of Destruction you actually have the ability to customize your 'Mechs, thanks to Pilot- and Gear-cards. Granted, it's a different system than BattleTech, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.

I've got quite a few actual miniatures myself. However, it seems like you haven't seen much of the MechWarrior miniature wargame besides the first set. I notice you refer to the big blue Atlas with Alpha Strike. It's true that MechWarrior: Dark Age didn't have the ability to customize 'Mechs, but there were more 'Mechs than just that Atlas from the first set with Alpha Strike, trust me. Heat management has always been an important part of the MechWarrior-game, there's a special heat dial on the base of 'Mechs for that purpose. Usually it's rather fatal to have a shutdown 'Mech in the field during a game, not to mention the ammo explosions that can come from overheating your big robotic warmachine...

In MechWarrior: Age Of Destruction you actually have the ability to customize your 'Mechs, thanks to Pilot- and Gear-cards. Granted, it's a different system than BattleTech, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.
ah, but the point is that in the B-tech game, you could manage heat and still fight. in the MW game, you had to sit and do nothing for your heat to go down (unless that was changed also)

and MW, Ammo Explosions only came from overheating. in the B-Tech game, it could also come from a critical hit on the torso.

Well, I play 40k, along with a bunch of others (Yes, I still have a life outside of it.) As for wanting gritty as hell, go a bunch of Imperial Guardsmen in an urban, dirty hellhole. That should take care of the grit.

Yes, there are differences between the rulesets, it's why MechWarrior and BattleTech are different games. It's not uncommon for fictional universes to spawn several games, after all. Warhammer 40K Epic plays differently from regular Warhammer 40K too, for example.

With the myriad of game systems already on the market it's a constant mystery to me why people continue to write new ones.

My gaming club is afflicted with this. My son as well as one of the other gamers in our group are each working on their own separate roleplaying game.


My theory on the subject is quite simple. When you're trying to sell miniatures, if you have a free downloadable set of rules then people are more likely to get interested. Furthermore, the books will set the tone of the game more than anything. The objective is to create a moody, story based wargame.

Now, with the rpg...over the years we've been disappointed by how resilient characters are. The goal is to make getting shot a very serious event. A game system that punishes players for trying to play traditional hack and slash games. Keep your head on a swivel, etc.

It's actually even more simple: games are a form of entertainment. When games stop being fun because of complexity, constant rules lawyering or other reasons, people usually get fed up and just stop playing. That's only logical.

My theory on the subject is quite simple. When you're trying to sell miniatures, if you have a free downloadable set of rules then people are more likely to get interested. Furthermore, the books will set the tone of the game more than anything. The objective is to create a moody, story based wargame.

Now, with the rpg...over the years we've been disappointed by how resilient characters are. The goal is to make getting shot a very serious event. A game system that punishes players for trying to play traditional hack and slash games. Keep your head on a swivel, etc.
the blame for that is the GM. if they rely on combat for problem resolution...

It's actually even more simple: games are a form of entertainment. When games stop being fun because of complexity, constant rules lawyering or other reasons, people usually get fed up and just stop playing. That's only logical.
it don't matter. the GM has control. I've played in games where we would have fun just SHOPPING for our equiptment.

as my former GM said. "I did my job if I can make you people say 'Iron Rations? bleah!"

we had whole adventures occur simply because we (the characters) got lost.

GM: ok, the train comes to a stop and people start getting off.
Player 1: we watch the people leave, keep an eye out for anything suspicious.
GM: the lights turn off as you hear the grav units powering down. the usher wanders up to you and says "last stop folks."
Player 2: huh? wait... we're supposed to go to.... what was the name of that station?
Player 1: I thought you knew?
GM: you two are ushered out and are now standing at the deserted depot
Player 2: You were supposed to play attention!
Player 1: that was your job. you were given the assignment, I just tagged along...

and yes, the GM did list the stop they were supposed to get off. but the Players didn't realize it till 8 stops later.:D

The problem I found with MechWarrior is that Tanks and Infantry were cheaper and thus more favorable than mech units. and until the first major overhaul of the rules, infantry could swarm a mech and do considerably more damage to the mech than the mech could do to the infantry.


as for ideas... Claydonia (http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~gaming/archive_claydonia.html). forget lead or pewter... Playdough is the new weapon of choice!

I've ran this as a side thing in several RPG tourneys and got bigger audences than the offical games! ;)


I've never been a fan of Giant walking robots as war toys.
The simple fact you illistrated about swarming infantry killing the Uber mechs
is exactly what happens in real life, and would happen in most Sci-fi battles.
Why would any one build a fleet of jumping/ walking / flying robots that
takes huge resources to maintain as well as use. When you could out fit
an entire Army of Infantry ( with SAM / Armor support ) for a fraction of the
cost?
It's a shock and awe weapon, not a replacement for the fighting man

Needs Orks...


Its just not Wargaming without the Greenskins...GReEn is BEST!!!!

My theory on the subject is quite simple. When you're trying to sell miniatures, if you have a free downloadable set of rules then people are more likely to get interested. Furthermore, the books will set the tone of the game more than anything. The objective is to create a moody, story based wargame.

Now, with the rpg...over the years we've been disappointed by how resilient characters are. The goal is to make getting shot a very serious event. A game system that punishes players for trying to play traditional hack and slash games. Keep your head on a swivel, etc.

The game Burning Wheel has a damage system which makes getting into
a fight simple and painful for all sides.
Although I do have issues with some of their other mechanics.

Or the Serenity ( Firefly ) RPG had a good system for handling the leathality
It was on a decimal system where people damage like knives and pistols ect
was a dice roll. And Heavy MG's was a dice roll in "vehicle scale" or ten times
people scale. So a roll of 3 from a vehicle HMG would be 30 on a person.
and A ship scale damage was ten times the vehicle scale.
There was a provisional option for grey area as vehicles and ships can be
nearly the same size, as people and vehicles can be nearly the same size.

Yes, there are differences between the rulesets, it's why MechWarrior and BattleTech are different games. It's not uncommon for fictional universes to spawn several games, after all. Warhammer 40K Epic plays differently from regular Warhammer 40K too, for example.

And, personally, I thought Epic 40k was the superior product, too. MechWarrior and BattleTech just never did it for me.

the one where you have to shoot of every bit of outer armor before taking out the internal structure?

the one that the basic game came with the cardboad figures?

the one that had all those unlicenced Japanese Anime mechs that suddenly had to be written out due to the lawsuits against FASA?

yep.

because
1) mechs that recieve 20+ damage in one barrage have to make a piloting roll or fall
2) mechs have to make overheating rolls...even while cooling down.
3) critical hits can mean cockpit/pilot hit or even engine hits. in Mechwarrior, Critical hit was only one more click of damage.
4) a mech's leg can be shot out putting that mech out of the fight. in MechWarrior no such situation.
5) a mech can be shot to shit and still be standing yet out of the fight
6) out of ammo. nuff said.
7) Headshots mean pilot damage. three headshots can leave the pilot dead.
8) Pre-CASE battles ended much faster after the ammo was hit. :D
9) bad roll on a MASE (?) would immobilize the mech.
Sonny, I was playin' that game back when it was called Battledroids...


That doesn't contribute anything except that I'm a geek from waaayyyy back...

I've never been a fan of Giant walking robots as war toys.
The simple fact you illistrated about swarming infantry killing the Uber mechs
is exactly what happens in real life, and would happen in most Sci-fi battles.
Why would any one build a fleet of jumping/ walking / flying robots that
takes huge resources to maintain as well as use. When you could out fit
an entire Army of Infantry ( with SAM / Armor support ) for a fraction of the
cost?
It's a shock and awe weapon, not a replacement for the fighting man

Shock and awe can win you a battle.

What most games tend to ignore is - if you build a robot the size of a building, you're not going to arm it like a tank (a turret, or two) - you're going to arm it like a building.

The reality of infantry charging a mech should be that it's impossible to get close, because of suppression fire.

My bigger problem is always flying mechs. Why build something manshaped, and then make it fly? There have to be a million better shapes for a flying vehicle.

Here's my take on the concievability of giant mechs-

I don't care. If I wanted reality I'd join the Army. I don't want real, I want cool. There are any number of things that wouldn't happen in any number of games. I don't care. If it's cool, I'm in. It's a game. No one knocks chess by saying, "Dude, knights can totally walk in straight lines." If giant mechs smashing around a fake city is cool (and for many many years for me it totally was, hell I still play the java version on my computer now and then), then I'm sold. You know what would happen in a real battle? I'd get my fool head shot off. Definitely not cool. I want my games to be cool. Why the fuck else would I spend the time and money?

Why the fuck else would I spend the time and money?

For all the Sex obviously...Gawd...

For all the Sex obviously...Gawd...

Strip Battletech seems to make the chase too long to cut to...

Strip Battletech seems to make the chase too long to cut to...

depends on how you do it.

total damage to each section is divided by ten and rounded up. that's how much 'armor' (aka articles of clothing) the person has to remove if that section has no 'armor' left, then damage flows to the center torso section.

so 6 pts damage to the right leg means that 1 article of clothing is removed from the person's right leg... it's fun if both people are wearing ratty clothes and there's a scissors handy.

20 points to the chest is 2 articles of clothing removed from the chest area. etc...

depends on how you do it.

total damage to each section is divided by ten and rounded up. that's how much 'armor' (aka articles of clothing) the person has to remove if that section has no 'armor' left, then damage flows to the center torso section.

so 6 pts damage to the right leg means that 1 article of clothing is removed from the person's right leg... it's fun if both people are wearing ratty clothes and there's a scissors handy.

20 points to the chest is 2 articles of clothing removed from the chest area. etc...

I'm not sure, but I think I'm horrified that you put that much time into working that out...

Also - of course - we're talking about tabletop gamers. That means you get to see your six spotty, overweight male friends without their shirts.

This game is made of lose.

I'm not sure, but I think I'm horrified that you put that much time into working that out...

Also - of course - we're talking about tabletop gamers. That means you get to see your six spotty, overweight male friends without their shirts.

This game is made of lose.

two points...

1) I actually thought of that strip Battletech rule a couple of minutes ago.

2) While your gaming friends are spotty overweight males, Mine are different in every aspect.

of course some of them don't fancy men... but I certainly won't mind staring at them shirtless...

would be the last thing I see... but whattawaytogo!

Needs Orks...


Its just not Wargaming without the Greenskins...GReEn is BEST!!!!

But da red wunz go fasta!

Shock and awe can win you a battle.

What most games tend to ignore is - if you build a robot the size of a building, you're not going to arm it like a tank (a turret, or two) - you're going to arm it like a building.

The reality of infantry charging a mech should be that it's impossible to get close, because of suppression fire.

My bigger problem is always flying mechs. Why build something manshaped, and then make it fly? There have to be a million better shapes for a flying vehicle.

Yes some times you can win a battle with Shock and awe,
I remeber The gulf war on television. But that was an Isolated incident
in the world.
If properly used Armor can be amazing,
But the problem of " A building sized flying Robot" is that Buildings make
magnificent targets.
A flying building ( like the F-4 phantom ) can't hardly help but be hit by
Ground based missiles. All the Counter measures on the planet can't save
you if you're so big that you blot out the sun on landing.
Even if you survived the onslaught of Ground based Big honking space guns,
there are still a million men with shoulder fired missiles, each one could easily
cripple you, and vehicle launched missiles which would render any building
to graval.
I also don't understand why Orbital weapons never seemed to be a thing
in those Mech games?
If you can build the huge robot, why not a series of space stations?
Or just sattelites which have Robot killing weapons?
Way cheaper than keeping an army of robots to defend your planet.

My theory on the subject is quite simple. When you're trying to sell miniatures, if you have a free downloadable set of rules then people are more likely to get interested. Furthermore, the books will set the tone of the game more than anything. The objective is to create a moody, story based wargame.

Now, with the rpg...over the years we've been disappointed by how resilient characters are. The goal is to make getting shot a very serious event. A game system that punishes players for trying to play traditional hack and slash games. Keep your head on a swivel, etc.

I think you'll find fragile player characters is rather less fun than it might seem. People will be invested in their characters, especially if they've survived several encounters.

I think you'll find fragile player characters is rather less fun than it might seem. People will be invested in their characters, especially if they've survived several encounters.

Which is why roguelike Video games are a dying breed. It's so easy to die in those games!

I think you'll find fragile player characters is rather less fun than it might seem. People will be invested in their characters, especially if they've survived several encounters.

actually... it all depends on how they die.

I had a tale told to be about a total party wipeout in a game that lasted... 10 minutes or so.

the situation was so heilarious that everyone involve still tells the tale.


I've also heard tales of the party striving against the odds just to see "how far they'll go"

Sometimes TPK's (Total Party Kills) is the stuff of gaming legends.

and sometimes it's the fragile guy that survives.

Yes some times you can win a battle with Shock and awe,
I remeber The gulf war on television. But that was an Isolated incident
in the world.
If properly used Armor can be amazing,
But the problem of " A building sized flying Robot" is that Buildings make
magnificent targets.
A flying building ( like the F-4 phantom ) can't hardly help but be hit by
Ground based missiles. All the Counter measures on the planet can't save
you if you're so big that you blot out the sun on landing.
Even if you survived the onslaught of Ground based Big honking space guns,
there are still a million men with shoulder fired missiles, each one could easily
cripple you, and vehicle launched missiles which would render any building
to graval.
I also don't understand why Orbital weapons never seemed to be a thing
in those Mech games?
If you can build the huge robot, why not a series of space stations?
Or just sattelites which have Robot killing weapons?
Way cheaper than keeping an army of robots to defend your planet.
A weapon fired from Orbital heights? I didn't realize that'd retain any power. Or be hard to knock out of the sky. Or cheap. Or easy to dodge. That and (In my experiences) Mechs are usually only AT-ST height, sometimes higher, and always cooler.

What most games tend to ignore is - if you build a robot the size of a building, you're not going to arm it like a tank (a turret, or two) - you're going to arm it like a building.

The reality of infantry charging a mech should be that it's impossible to get close, because of suppression fire.

My bigger problem is always flying mechs. Why build something manshaped, and then make it fly? There have to be a million better shapes for a flying vehicle.

The whole thing with scifi miniature wargames with giant combat robots is that they don't have too much in common with reality. Hell, Warhammer 40K features tanks and heavily armed infantry units, still those intimidating playing pieces pretty much have to be able to smell what their opponents had for breakfast in order to be able to take a bloody shot at them. Three words: suspension of disbelief.

1) I actually thought of that strip Battletech rule a couple of minutes ago.


Still too much thought went into it, I think. :)


2) While your gaming friends are spotty overweight males, Mine are different in every aspect.

of course some of them don't fancy men... but I certainly won't mind staring at them shirtless...

would be the last thing I see... but whattawaytogo!

Well, I haven't actually gamed in years, but I was pandering to stereotypes for comic effect. :)

Yes some times you can win a battle with Shock and awe,
I remeber The gulf war on television. But that was an Isolated incident
in the world.
If properly used Armor can be amazing,


Actually, Blitzkrieg is basically a 'shock and awe' tactic. To be honest - if us Limeys had anywhere to go, that might have been game over for WW2.

Psychology is probably (very close to) the most powerful weapon on any battlefield. If a giant mecha scares the shit out of your enemy, then a giant mecha is a handy thing to have - for all it's weaknesses.

In terms of tabletop gaming, I've won games pretty much entirely from psychology - so it works in 'real life' and in simulation.


But the problem of " A building sized flying Robot" is that Buildings make
magnificent targets.
A flying building ( like the F-4 phantom ) can't hardly help but be hit by
Ground based missiles. All the Counter measures on the planet can't save
you if you're so big that you blot out the sun on landing.
Even if you survived the onslaught of Ground based Big honking space guns,
there are still a million men with shoulder fired missiles, each one could easily
cripple you, and vehicle launched missiles which would render any building
to graval.


Well, a building-sized mecha has the obvious advantage that it can move. Buildings aren't nearly as easy a target if they can dodge. :)

But, even now, with our current science - we're heading to a point where rocketry weapons (probably the most potent defence against mecha) are heading towards being redundant - anti-missile-missiles may soon make that threat obsolete. And - of course - your building-sized mecha has that same advantage again - it's size. It can allow for a lot of ammo for such defensive mechanisms.


I also don't understand why Orbital weapons never seemed to be a thing
in those Mech games?
If you can build the huge robot, why not a series of space stations?
Or just sattelites which have Robot killing weapons?
Way cheaper than keeping an army of robots to defend your planet.

If orbital weapons figured prominently in games, you'd have two turns and then game over, perhaps. The same reason the potentially REALLY lethal groundbased weapons tend to get ignored. There's no game in an extinction level event.

But, there are other logical reasons... you don't fire a weapon from orbital altitude, at a target that is too close to your own stuff.

Still too much thought went into it, I think. :)
you should hear some of the stuff we come up with on-the-fly. Masters of Calvinball we would be.


Well, I haven't actually gamed in years, but I was pandering to stereotypes for comic effect. :)

oops, sorry.

should've reconized that... especally after this (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2008-07-23)...

you should hear some of the stuff we come up with on-the-fly. Masters of Calvinball we would be.


Or "Timmyball" as this generation will call it. :(


oops, sorry.

should've reconized that... especally after this (http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2008-07-23)...

Ha. :) Is funny.

I also don't understand why Orbital weapons never seemed to be a thing
in those Mech games?
If you can build the huge robot, why not a series of space stations?
Or just sattelites which have Robot killing weapons?
Way cheaper than keeping an army of robots to defend your planet.

I think it had to do with the fact that much of BTech was suppose to be in a fallen universe; it's possibly they simply don't have the technology, or they knock the sats out before deploying dropships.

I think it had to do with the fact that much of BTech was suppose to be in a fallen universe; it's possibly they simply don't have the technology, or they knock the sats out before deploying dropships.

But I look at game like " Traveller"

Anyone remember that?
( Wow it was leaned in a bad way for tech )

And see how much farther we've come in real life only thirty years later,

and Have to sat that missiles / lasers or what ever we wind up using are
always going to have a cutting edge, even if you built a sand caster to
block lasers in space.
They would build more ( quantity ) and more powerful lasers.
Or Kenetic Energy Weapons like Mass Drivers.

What ever the future weapon is, Robots of doom belong to the black and
white movies of our parent's age.

Since you asked for some suggestions on aliens, classes, etc, I want to know, is this hard sci-fi or space opera you're working on? Hard sci-fi would be a quite a bit harder to do as an interesting game I imagine, but it could work if your setting focussed on ground combat rather than space.

Any suggestions I might have would depend on the setting you're working with. But for now I'll say one thing that should aply to all sci-fi: for the love of God have some aliens that look like aliens instead of humans with pointy ears and/or forehead ridges.

If a hard sci-fi setting, there won't be energy shields. Which means that orbital ships can pretty much wipe out any concentrated ground forces. Thus, I would imagine that ground warfare would probably be more of a gurilla/counter-insurgency deal, with resitance forces spreading out in the wilderness or in large cities where locating a foe would be difficult and orbital bomardment would risk unacceptable collateral damage.

I think it had to do with the fact that much of BTech was suppose to be in a fallen universe; it's possibly they simply don't have the technology, or they knock the sats out before deploying dropships.

That was the best part of Battletech, and the biggest Catch 22 of it...how can you come out with expansions for a universe that's slowly regressing in technology? A new source book that tells you what you can't use now? The thing I loved about the game was bound not to last.

Also, orbital death lasers do not let you hold or occupy a piece of territory.

True, that. It's why the Inner Sphere started rediscovering lost technologies, leading to a virtual Renaissance. That was just in time as well, since the technologically advanced successors of the Star League Defense Force returned with a vengeance after having left the Inner Sphere hundreds of years earlier.

And when it comes to occupying territory, nothing says "We Own This Place" like a crapload of tanks. Way cheaper than BattleMechs and pretty much any world with enough industry and infrastructure to construct tractors can theoretically build them.

actually... it all depends on how they die.

I had a tale told to be about a total party wipeout in a game that lasted... 10 minutes or so.

the situation was so heilarious that everyone involve still tells the tale.


I've also heard tales of the party striving against the odds just to see "how far they'll go"

Sometimes TPK's (Total Party Kills) is the stuff of gaming legends.

and sometimes it's the fragile guy that survives.

Oh I agree, but in a game where players are easy to kill, epic deaths like that give way to "Oh my god I can't believe the guy with the weenie pea-shooter just killed off my warrior dude..."

I think it had to do with the fact that much of BTech was suppose to be in a fallen universe; it's possibly they simply don't have the technology, or they knock the sats out before deploying dropships.

I think also when you want to try and take a city intact, it means getting down and dirty in combat.

True, that. It's why the Inner Sphere started rediscovering lost technologies, leading to a virtual Renaissance. That was just in time as well, since the technologically advanced successors of the Star League Defense Force returned with a vengeance after having left the Inner Sphere hundreds of years earlier.

And when it comes to occupying territory, nothing says "We Own This Place" like a crapload of tanks. Way cheaper than BattleMechs and pretty much any world with enough industry and infrastructure to construct tractors can theoretically build them.

Gotta remember also that BattleMechs were more than just war machines. They were symbols of the might of the Successor States.

Also, MechWarriors were the best and brightest military commanders as well as gifted pilots, and their talents could be harnessed much more effectively than in a simple tank.

With the myriad of game systems already on the market it's a constant mystery to me why people continue to write new ones.

My gaming club is afflicted with this. My son as well as one of the other gamers in our group are each working on their own separate roleplaying game.

Well, I do it for the hell of it. So I've idly designed a spaceship combat game, designed to have a vaguely accurate but still playable method for movement. Not because of any particular annoyance with previous ones, but because I feel it was an interesting challenge. Same with another rule designed to get wargames to "flow" better.

It's mostly for the fun of coming up with something new, interesting, and usable. I think, for instance, that both main types of turns suck, so I've got my own idea. I think that most space combat games have pretty bad movement, so I've designed one with better movement. Also more of an emphasis on using combinations of ships, instead of single monstrosities.

Basically, to scratch a creative itch.

Which is why roguelike Video games are a dying breed. It's so easy to die in those games!

Speak for yourself, that's why I like them. I know that I'm going to die regularly, so I can just enjoy the game and challenge myself to get farther than last time. It makes success into something fun and new, and failure the default mode. I go away from rogue either thinking "meh, it happens" if I die, or "yay! I did well" if I score high, instead of thinking "meh, it happens" when I score well, and "oh bugger, that's really gutting" when I die. Much nicer for just quick games, as I don't end up in a sour mood over not doing well.

Gotta remember also that BattleMechs were more than just war machines. They were symbols of the might of the Successor States.

Also, MechWarriors were the best and brightest military commanders as well as gifted pilots, and their talents could be harnessed much more effectively than in a simple tank.

It's not like I disagree with you. However, the BattleTech rules clearly state that crews for conventional combat vehicles are way easier to train than the average MechWarrior. A BattleMech usually can defeat a tank of the same size without suffering too much damage in return, but it's very well possible to swarm and defeat enemy 'Mechs with a superior number of regular combat vehicles. BattleMechs may be kings of the battlefield, but sooner or later even the mightiest warriors are doomed to fall.

It's not like I disagree with you. However, the BattleTech rules clearly state that crews for conventional combat vehicles are way easier to train than the average MechWarrior. A BattleMech usually can defeat a tank of the same size without suffering too much damage in return, but it's very well possible to swarm and defeat enemy 'Mechs with a superior number of regular combat vehicles. BattleMechs may be kings of the battlefield, but sooner or later even the mightiest warriors are doomed to fall.

I think any MechWarrior who would go into battle without his/her own tank and infantry support is asking to get pwned.

Not so much a gamer than a tabletop collector, mostly of 40K Space Wolves. I do own the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition of 40K (doubt I'll buy the 5th) - but gaming and/or painting is not where I put the focus.

But I'm an avid fan of the 40K universe and own a huge amount of novels. (And models. About 3 Great Companies of Wolves are mine.)

I think any MechWarrior who would go into battle without his/her own tank and infantry support is asking to get pwned.

Even though I frown at the use of "pwned" in your statement, it is true that combined arms tactics usually are the best way to deploy your troops in the BattleTech universe. I fondly remember the time that I terminated an enemy Trebuchet 'Mech with a well-placed shot from the class 10 autocannon of my Patton MBT. Another fine example of a 'Mech that got owned by a tank was during a recent game of MechWarrior, in which a couple of Enyo Strike Tanks made short work of the Shrike assault 'Mech they encountered.

Not so much a gamer than a tabletop collector, mostly of 40K Space Wolves. I do own the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th edition of 40K (doubt I'll buy the 5th) - but gaming and/or painting is not where I put the focus.

But I'm an avid fan of the 40K universe and own a huge amount of novels. (And models. About 3 Great Companies of Wolves are mine.)

I was a really big fan of the 40k mythos, at least as far as Dark Eldar - which shows you how long it's been since I last really got involved. I totally agree that it was the best thing about that game - and it's HUGE advantage over the competition.

Unfortunately, GW got greedy. Then they got stupid-greedy. Eventually, no matter how awesome the concept work, and how gorgeous the miniatures, I just couldn't justify it any more.

They also put me off by concentrating too much on one or two Chapters. I played a Chapter of my own creation, and it basically got to the point where you got punished for doing so. For all I know - you can't even do it anymore.

They took a great game, with a fantastic backstory... and totally killed it.

(At the time they lost me, I was well on my way to being able to actually field a Chapter of Bloody Hands (my chapter), including a full company of Terminators. Shame really.)

I'd like to see something that DOESN'T use a d6 as the primary variable.


Rolemaster. I cannot remember about the dice used in Phoenix Command.
Anyway both RM and PC rules and table are quite cumbersome.

True, that. It's why the Inner Sphere started rediscovering lost technologies, leading to a virtual Renaissance. That was just in time as well, since the technologically advanced successors of the Star League Defense Force returned with a vengeance after having left the Inner Sphere hundreds of years earlier.

And when it comes to occupying territory, nothing says "We Own This Place" like a crapload of tanks. Way cheaper than BattleMechs and pretty much any world with enough industry and infrastructure to construct tractors can theoretically build them.

Well, it's exactly why they pushed the story that way. But I never liked it. I seriously didn't like the whole Clans thing. What made the game awesome to me was the regression, which obviously they couldn't maintain and still sell supplements. Well, I think they could have, but not in the traditional 'more stuff, better weapons' kind of way.

I also dug the whole dispossessed warrior thing, too. I always wanted to but never got around to it play a Mechwarrior (the role playing game they released, anyone remember that?) campaign of dispossessed warriors trying to get their titles back. The drag of that was, I never wanted to interrupt a role playing game to play a game of Battletech.

I always played the table top game like mechs were a valuable resource. I was a very defensive player. At tourneys and conventions I'd get mocked in the first three rounds while the other dudes charged me, but there were times when I'd come out with one of my mechs barely touched. I never got to do a tourney where you carried over your mechs...that would have been cool, I would have cleaned up.

I was a really big fan of the 40k mythos, at least as far as Dark Eldar - which shows you how long it's been since I last really got involved. I totally agree that it was the best thing about that game - and it's HUGE advantage over the competition.

Unfortunately, GW got greedy. Then they got stupid-greedy. Eventually, no matter how awesome the concept work, and how gorgeous the miniatures, I just couldn't justify it any more.

They also put me off by concentrating too much on one or two Chapters. I played a Chapter of my own creation, and it basically got to the point where you got punished for doing so. For all I know - you can't even do it anymore.

They took a great game, with a fantastic backstory... and totally killed it.

(At the time they lost me, I was well on my way to being able to actually field a Chapter of Bloody Hands (my chapter), including a full company of Terminators. Shame really.)
I can only whole-heartedly agree. The amount of money they'd charge you for a bunch of miniatures became ridiculous!

First they went from pewter/lead to white metal (of which, apparently, your younger sibling could eat as much as he could find since they are lead-free - duh!) and increased the price. Then they changed to plastic and charge even more. For a figure worth a couple of pennies and molded by the thousands. Nuh-uh. Same goes for the paints. Less paint, worse cans, higher price.

To hell with it. I will still buy their novels, though. Luckily, German amazon has very good deals for the English books when you order them early enough. As for the hobby - greed really killed it, as you said.

I am very fond of the background they have developed (and borrowed and stolen from everywhere else), but in recent years they have simply stopped supporting Space Wolves and instead focused on other things. And they simply lost me.

Buddy of mine still buys the White Dwarf and I get to read it - but honestly, that too started from being really about the background and hobby towards less pages filled with more advertising while rising the price. Again, screw that.

And I'm really not going to support a change in rules every 2-4 years. Hell, I haven't even gotten around to understand 2nd edition rules, let alone the 4th. Theoretically, I realized that games took less time (from the few games I did play in those editions) - practically, the GW rule only to field painted stuff in their store pissed me off so much I never really started playing.

I'm just glad I ain't the only "veteran" to feel that way!

I can only whole-heartedly agree. The amount of money they'd charge you for a bunch of miniatures became ridiculous!

First they went from pewter/lead to white metal (of which, apparently, your younger sibling could eat as much as he could find since they are lead-free - duh!) and increased the price. Then they changed to plastic and charge even more. For a figure worth a couple of pennies and molded by the thousands. Nuh-uh. Same goes for the paints. Less paint, worse cans, higher price.

To hell with it. I will still buy their novels, though. Luckily, German amazon has very good deals for the English books when you order them early enough. As for the hobby - greed really killed it, as you said.

I am very fond of the background they have developed (and borrowed and stolen from everywhere else), but in recent years they have simply stopped supporting Space Wolves and instead focused on other things. And they simply lost me.

Buddy of mine still buys the White Dwarf and I get to read it - but honestly, that too started from being really about the background and hobby towards less pages filled with more advertising while rising the price. Again, screw that.

And I'm really not going to support a change in rules every 2-4 years. Hell, I haven't even gotten around to understand 2nd edition rules, let alone the 4th. Theoretically, I realized that games took less time (from the few games I did play in those editions) - practically, the GW rule only to field painted stuff in their store pissed me off so much I never really started playing.

I'm just glad I ain't the only "veteran" to feel that way!

Me and my friends basically played Second Edition, no matter what. Except the guy who actually WORKED for GW - he kinda had to play whatever was up-to-date, but we still played second ed. between our group.

I think they alienated a lot of hardcore gamers. Maybe they make good profit on each model, but I think they lost a lot of their base. And they lost dedicated players, too.

But, when it got to the point that I could go out for a meal, OR buy a new character model? Not interested anymore.

It's a shame. I liked the way 40k and Epic played. If it was still a reasonable priced hobby, I'd probably STILL be playing now.

Rolemaster. I cannot remember about the dice used in Phoenix Command.
Anyway both RM and PC rules and table are quite cumbersome.

But they're more RP than tabletop miniatures. I've played Rolemaster - cumbersome, but playable for a roleplay game, far too complicated for miniatures.

WarMachine uses a 2d6 system, which works well, but it's designed for small scale skirmish. Something a bit bigger scale might be better.

Even though I frown at the use of "pwned" in your statement, it is true that combined arms tactics usually are the best way to deploy your troops in the BattleTech universe. I fondly remember the time that I terminated an enemy Trebuchet 'Mech with a well-placed shot from the class 10 autocannon of my Patton MBT. Another fine example of a 'Mech that got owned by a tank was during a recent game of MechWarrior, in which a couple of Enyo Strike Tanks made short work of the Shrike assault 'Mech they encountered.

When the MechWarrior 4 game first game out for the PC I severely underestimated the power of tanks so the first couple times my 'Mech encountered enemy tanks I just stomped on them... But quickly found out just how thin the armor on the legs was vs. the damage sustained by all that exploding ordinance. Later it actually got to the point where I was more careful about how I approached tanks then how I approached enemy 'Mechs!

I can only whole-heartedly agree. The amount of money they'd charge you for a bunch of miniatures became ridiculous!<snip>

<snip>
It's a shame. I liked the way 40k and Epic played. If it was still a reasonable priced hobby, I'd probably STILL be playing now.

I know exactly how you guys feel and I've been there, but I'm gonna play the devil's advocate for a minute here because I eventually changed my mind.

My buddies and I went through the same thing. We played 40K back when it was called Rogue Trader and the models were either cheap white plastic or lead. When they started changing the rules and more books had to be bought, we got annoyed. We got even more annoyed when they went from lead to pewter, which lowers production costs yet the price went up for the miniuature (Although to be fair, Ral Partha and all the other miniatures makers did the same thing. "Pewter... OOooh! The Franklin Mint makes stuff out of pewter! It sounds good let's charge more!")

So we quit buying stuff for a lot of years.

A couple years ago some things changed that brought us back to the fold.

1)The quality has gotten a LOT better. The price is high, but IMHO you get your money's worth.

2)We play for free at the Battle Bunker. I realize this is only good for those of us who are lucky enough to live near one, but in my mind part of the expense is justified by the perks of using their facilities.

3)Games Workshop no longer sells exclusively out of GW shops. You can get GW stuff from online hobby stores for significant discounts. the warstore.com sells everything GW at 20% off. All of it. All the time. Shipping is only 5 bucks no matter how much you order.

4)eBay. A couple of my friends recently got into WHF and WH40K and they got most of their stuff over eBay and saved huge. I buy stuff off of eBay whenever I can and sometimes I get it for half what GW sells it for.

All of these factors are new from the time we quit playing before. Made it worth coming back, IMHO.

And man, the new rules for 40K are WAY better than the 2nd Edition. Vehicles are *gasp* simple!

Do it. Come back to the fold, my friends. You know you want to.

When the MechWarrior 4 game first game out for the PC I severely underestimated the power of tanks so the first couple times my 'Mech encountered enemy tanks I just stomped on them... But quickly found out just how thin the armor on the legs was vs. the damage sustained by all that exploding ordinance. Later it actually got to the point where I was more careful about how I approached tanks then how I approached enemy 'Mechs!

It's always good to thread carefully with your 'Mech in territories featuring large numbers of enemy infantry units and combat vehicles. By the way, my lovely little encounter featuring the Enyo Strike Tanks and the Shrike 'Mech was during a game of the miniature wargame MechWarrior.

I used to play Battletech, Starfire and Star Fleet Battles. I'm still into SFB, but lack the time to play, and there are no playing groups nearby anyway.

It's always good to thread carefully with your 'Mech in territories featuring large numbers of enemy infantry units and combat vehicles. By the way, my lovely little encounter featuring the Enyo Strike Tanks and the Shrike 'Mech was during a game of the miniature wargame MechWarrior.

You mean the clicky base game?

*sigh*

But yah enemy 'Mechs usually come in manageable numbers and will quickly charge right at you. Tanks generally come in large numbers and can easily zerg a lance or star by surrounding them. In chaos like that it's easy to start stepping on them which only makes matters worse.

It's bad manners to step on tanks, every MechWarrior knows that.

It's bad manners to step on tanks, every MechWarrior knows that.

Well when they're scuttling all over the place and you're trying to keep from providing a stationary target... ;)

It's bad manners to step on tanks, every MechWarrior knows that.

true, you don't step on tanks.


That's what infantry's for! :D

"SRM Personnel for the feild goal!" *punts*

I know exactly how you guys feel and I've been there, but I'm gonna play the devil's advocate for a minute here because I eventually changed my mind.

My buddies and I went through the same thing. We played 40K back when it was called Rogue Trader and the models were either cheap white plastic or lead. When they started changing the rules and more books had to be bought, we got annoyed. We got even more annoyed when they went from lead to pewter, which lowers production costs yet the price went up for the miniuature (Although to be fair, Ral Partha and all the other miniatures makers did the same thing. "Pewter... OOooh! The Franklin Mint makes stuff out of pewter! It sounds good let's charge more!")

So we quit buying stuff for a lot of years.

A couple years ago some things changed that brought us back to the fold.

1)The quality has gotten a LOT better. The price is high, but IMHO you get your money's worth.

2)We play for free at the Battle Bunker. I realize this is only good for those of us who are lucky enough to live near one, but in my mind part of the expense is justified by the perks of using their facilities.

3)Games Workshop no longer sells exclusively out of GW shops. You can get GW stuff from online hobby stores for significant discounts. the warstore.com sells everything GW at 20% off. All of it. All the time. Shipping is only 5 bucks no matter how much you order.

4)eBay. A couple of my friends recently got into WHF and WH40K and they got most of their stuff over eBay and saved huge. I buy stuff off of eBay whenever I can and sometimes I get it for half what GW sells it for.

All of these factors are new from the time we quit playing before. Made it worth coming back, IMHO.

And man, the new rules for 40K are WAY better than the 2nd Edition. Vehicles are *gasp* simple!

Do it. Come back to the fold, my friends. You know you want to.

When I first joined the GW hobby, you could get 5 marines for 2.50 (which would have been... what... $4?), and they were metal. The detail was good, if not spectacular. A couple of years later, the plastic boxes arrived, and you could get 30 marines for 10 bucks (so.. about $15?).

Then the first Terminator marines arrived -and you got 3 for the price of 5 older marines. Then the new marines.. same price as terminators. Then the new terminators... and suddenly they're packed individually, for the same price as an old blister of marines...


I know you can often get killer deals on e-bay, but that's kind of not the point.

First - because the hobby itself just continues getting more and more expensive, even if you're picking up second-hand stuff.

Second - when I quit 40k, I had more than 40k points value just of marines (much more than that at Epic scale)... and one of my friends basically took over my stuff. For all I know - my huge old marines army ended up as one of those e-bay deals out there.

And even if I could be tempted back into the fold, I live in buttfuck nowhere. I'd be buying moderately nice, but really expensive statues that I have to paint myself, basically.

It must be really fun working for the marketing department of Games Workshop, if you see what those lads joyously shoved down the throats of the average Warhammer-player. And still the various Games Workshop games continue to dominate the miniature wargaming scene. It seems like miniature wargamers are a rather masochistic lot.

1)The quality has gotten a LOT better. The price is high, but IMHO you get your money's worth.
Actually you don't when you compare the plastic minis with the pewter ones. Sure, you can now assemble them how you like again (I too own some Rogue Trader white marines). And it is nice to see the new plastic tank kits. But they're simply too frigging expensive to enjoy the hobby. And it's just that - a hobby. It shouldn't be the highest spending factor in your monthly bill, even if you decided to "only" buy a small thing.
2)We play for free at the Battle Bunker. I realize this is only good for those of us who are lucky enough to live near one, but in my mind part of the expense is justified by the perks of using their facilities.
No such thing here. They closed down my city's GW store because headquarters apparently wasn't satisfied with their sales numbers. And guess what? I've been there on weekdays and on Saturday - and some days they make money faster than they could have printed it!
3)Games Workshop no longer sells exclusively out of GW shops. You can get GW stuff from online hobby stores for significant discounts. the warstore.com sells everything GW at 20% off. All of it. All the time. Shipping is only 5 bucks no matter how much you order.
Over here, it never really has. However, discounts are a rare thing. Sometimes you find them whenever a shop decides to discontinue GW products and tries to get rid of whatever's left. But that's pretty much it.
4)eBay. A couple of my friends recently got into WHF and WH40K and they got most of their stuff over eBay and saved huge. I buy stuff off of eBay whenever I can and sometimes I get it for half what GW sells it for.
I have gotten more than half my collection off eBay. And it really is the only alternative I have that is pretty affordable. Yet good deals are rare, and much that is offered is "coated" triple time, already "a little glued together" like they used a paintbrush to accomplish said feat, or nastily painted - and you guys know how hard it can be to get rid of the old layers of paint, don't you?

Besides, take a look at this:

5th edition rule book (and mind you, it's exactly the same book!!! Okay, given, one is translated and the English one isn't even available. But their translations are sometimes - to be blunt - horribly crappy!!!):

Sold for US$ 50 in the US. (= EUR 34 or GBP 27)
Sold for EUR 50 in Germany. (= US$ 74 or GBP 40)
Sold for GBP 30 in GB. (= US$ 56 or EUR 37)

I ain't fucking paying 35-50% more for the same damn book. (And ordering it from overseas or buying it in GB is out of the question too because whatever I'd make good would go straight to German customs. It's a no-win situation!)

So, no. Screw'em.

It's bad manners to step on tanks, every MechWarrior knows that.

In the 2050 book that listed all the 'mechs, if you look at the picture of the Thunderbolt, it's squishing a scout vehicle.


AAaaaand that's what I did instead of pick up chicks...

When I first joined the GW hobby, you could get 5 marines for 2.50 (which would have been... what... $4?),
Actually you don't when you compare the plastic minis with the pewter ones. Sure, you can now assemble them how you like again (I too own some Rogue Trader white marines). And it is nice to see the new plastic tank kits. But they're simply too frigging expensive to enjoy the hobby. And it's just that - a hobby. It shouldn't be the highest spending factor in your monthly bill, even if you decided to "only" buy a small thing.

One thing I know some guys do (and this is for Fantasy I don't know how well it would work for 40k) Is they use non-GW miniatures for their armies. Sure, they couldn't play them in a tournament like that but if all they do is play each other it works well.

I've thought of doing that myself but I play at the GW store often enough that if I wanted to use those models I'd be SOL anyway.


Second - when I quit 40k, I had more than 40k points value just of marines (much more than that at Epic scale)... and one of my friends basically took over my stuff. For all I know - my huge old marines army ended up as one of those e-bay deals out there.

And even if I could be tempted back into the fold, I live in buttfuck nowhere. I'd be buying moderately nice, but really expensive statues that I have to paint myself, basically.

Yeah not much of a solution for that :(


No such thing here. They closed down my city's GW store because headquarters apparently wasn't satisfied with their sales numbers. And guess what? I've been there on weekdays and on Saturday - and some days they make money faster than they could have printed it!

See I kinda feel bad... there's a GW store 20 minutes from here, and 10 minutes further is a Battle Bunker. We're kinda spoiled.


Over here, it never really has. However, discounts are a rare thing. Sometimes you find them whenever a shop decides to discontinue GW products and tries to get rid of whatever's left. But that's pretty much it.

I have gotten more than half my collection off eBay. And it really is the only alternative I have that is pretty affordable. Yet good deals are rare, and much that is offered is "coated" triple time, already "a little glued together" like they used a paintbrush to accomplish said feat, or nastily painted - and you guys know how hard it can be to get rid of the old layers of paint, don't you?

Yes I do :(

But here's a tip I learned recently:

When I played 20 years ago my buddy painted his Terminators with primer then enamel paint. I acquired them in a trade back then and at that time they had one layer of primer and 2 layers of enamel paint on them. I painted over that with a layer of acrylic paint, then stuck them in a box until just last year...

I soaked them in brake fluid for 3 days. The acrylic came right off the riased surfaces but not in the cracks and recesses. Then I had an idea.

Comet Cleanser.

Mix a bunch of that with some water and dunk the metal minis in it. Let it sit overnight. Take an old toothbrush the next day and voila'! The paint falls right off, no matter how many layers you're dealing with!


Besides, take a look at this:

5th edition rule book (and mind you, it's exactly the same book!!! Okay, given, one is translated and the English one isn't even available. But their translations are sometimes - to be blunt - horribly crappy!!!):

Sold for US$ 50 in the US. (= EUR 34 or GBP 27)
Sold for EUR 50 in Germany. (= US$ 74 or GBP 40)
Sold for GBP 30 in GB. (= US$ 56 or EUR 37)

I ain't fucking paying 35-50% more for the same damn book. (And ordering it from overseas or buying it in GB is out of the question too because whatever I'd make good would go straight to German customs. It's a no-win situation!)

So, no. Screw'em.

Ouch... :(

In the 2050 book that listed all the 'mechs, if you look at the picture of the Thunderbolt, it's squishing a scout vehicle.


AAaaaand that's what I did instead of pick up chicks...

Um.. the book is the 3050 book.

/geek fit

As for the hobby - greed really killed it
I say the down-turn, and the greed, really kicked in when GW went public on the market.

I've a close friend who works for GW, and though he'll still defend them beyond the point of rationality (a 50% staff discount will do that to you...) he, and many other GW staff members, are complaining about the top-level company folks. They've come into the company in the last decade or so, when GW began to really make the big bucks (especially since their LotR tie-in games), and aren't gamers at all.

Those folks, like Rick Preistly, who were high-level staff but still loved the hobby, have been pushed out and replaced by folks who are just in it for the moolah. That's why, I think, we've seen stuff like White Dwarf becoming little more than a new mini catalogue (bring back the days of Jake Thornton!!), the LotR minis deliberately made a different scale from standard GW minis, the fall of the side-line games like Necromunda or Warhammer Quest (still my favourite, and IMO the best, game GW ever produced; and the only one I still play regularly) because they don' require vast amounts of minis, and GW staff forced to glean information of the company's future off of sites like WarSeer.

A sad state of affairs indeed. It's not as if the GW hobby was ever particularly cheap, but back in the day you felt that GW was run by gamers for gamers.

Not any more.

I'm just glad I ain't the only "veteran" to feel that way!
By Grungni's beard, you're not alone!

My biggest gripe with GW at this point is the utterly ruthless lengths they'll go to to protect the company's image and force people to buy stuff. There are a few officially recognized Warhammer forums out there but complaining about the price of the stuff on there is an actual bannable offense in some cases, because GW will shut the sites down it it's allowed to go on.

Also, they'll jump on you if you design software that might enable someone to not have to buy a book. There was once a site hosted in Japan with a really great army list builder for Warhammer Fantasy that made building a list very easy.

My friends and I used it. Well, one day we went to play at the local GW store and one of the store employees saw my buddy's printout from the site. He studied it for a moment, walked away, and 24 hours later that site was down.

(Apologies to anyone here who was using that)

Talk about draconian...

Yeah not much of a solution for that :(


I do really love the mythos for 40k (or at least, what it looked like 10 years ago)... but I doubt there's any way I'll ever play their miniatures games any more.

If they ever come out with an online wargame that combines the mythos, with the customisation and versatility that tabletop gave... I might play that.

I do really love the mythos for 40k (or at least, what it looked like 10 years ago)... but I doubt there's any way I'll ever play their miniatures games any more.

If they ever come out with an online wargame that combines the mythos, with the customisation and versatility that tabletop gave... I might play that.

I haven't tried Dawn of War or any of those 40K games yet, but I'd like to. I have no idea whether they have the versatility or not but I'm not holding my breath.

Um.. the book is the 3050 book.

/geek fit

I'm totally okay with that error, but of course...2050 was Shadowrun...and I'm back to sad again...

guess no one played Claydonia. :(

One thing I know some guys do (and this is for Fantasy I don't know how well it would work for 40k) Is they use non-GW miniatures for their armies. Sure, they couldn't play them in a tournament like that but if all they do is play each other it works well.
I do have a couple of cool minis from other ranges, but most of them are not as nice as the Space Marines I have.
See I kinda feel bad... there's a GW store 20 minutes from here, and 10 minutes further is a Battle Bunker. We're kinda spoiled.
Lucky you!
But here's a tip I learned recently:
[...]
I soaked them in brake fluid for 3 days. The acrylic came right off the riased surfaces but not in the cracks and recesses. Then I had an idea.
Comet Cleanser.
Mix a bunch of that with some water and dunk the metal minis in it. Let it sit overnight. Take an old toothbrush the next day and voila'! The paint falls right off, no matter how many layers you're dealing with!
While I have heard about the magic breaking fluid should work, I never really got around trying that yet.
It's simply not on my list of priorities right now.
Ouch... :(
Ouch indeed. Talk about a rip-off. And it's the same "deal" with minis and boxes and everything GW offers in Germany. It's way more expensive than pretty much everywhere else. Sucks big time.
I say the down-turn, and the greed, really kicked in when GW went public on the market.
True, true.
I've a close friend who works for GW, and though he'll still defend them beyond the point of rationality (a 50% staff discount will do that to you...) he, and many other GW staff members, are complaining about the top-level company folks. They've come into the company in the last decade or so, when GW began to really make the big bucks (especially since their LotR tie-in games), and aren't gamers at all.
Which is where the problem lies. They don't appreciate their fans as gamers but only as customers.
Those folks, like Rick Preistly, who were high-level staff but still loved the hobby, have been pushed out and replaced by folks who are just in it for the moolah. That's why, I think, we've seen stuff like White Dwarf becoming little more than a new mini catalogue (bring back the days of Jake Thornton!!), the LotR minis deliberately made a different scale from standard GW minis, the fall of the side-line games like Necromunda or Warhammer Quest (still my favourite, and IMO the best, game GW ever produced; and the only one I still play regularly) because they don' require vast amounts of minis, and GW staff forced to glean information of the company's future off of sites like WarSeer.

A sad state of affairs indeed. It's not as if the GW hobby was ever particularly cheap, but back in the day you felt that GW was run by gamers for gamers.

Not any more.
Over the years I've seen that change and knew in which direction GW was headed... And games like Necromunda were fun!!!
By Grungni's beard, you're not alone!
Glad to hear it!
I haven't tried Dawn of War or any of those 40K games yet, but I'd like to. I have no idea whether they have the versatility or not but I'm not holding my breath.
I've played a demo of DoW - but for me it is way too complicated. Too much going on at the same time, and I never got used to how to play that game...
guess no one played Claydonia. :(
But I played with clay when I was young! :tongue:

But I played with clay when I was young! :tongue:

if you wanna usher in a whole new generation of Tabletop gamers, Claydonia is the way to do it.

Stomping, slaming and bowling other people's clay fighters... :D

Which is where the problem lies. They don't appreciate their fans as gamers but only as customers.
And as a result, there's been a mass-migration of older gamers from the hobby. That hasn't hurt GW up till now, what with the success in past years of both the LotR series and the company in general. I don't know if it'll last though, and it's a sad thing to see. There's a lot of gamers in my position; we loved it years ago, still love the hobby, still drool over new models, but simply can't afford to stick in at the hobby.

And games like Necromunda were fun!!!
Not just excellent fun, but the best stuff they ever did.

Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Warhammer Quest, Man o' War, even old Space Marine (the precursor to Epic 40k, and the first GW game I ever bought) were top-notch games and held my attention far greater than either Warhammer or 40k. I still love a good tabletop battle, and I'm　proud of my hard-as-fuck Dwarf army (5th Ed.), but I'd much rather be dungeon-crawling with WHQ, collecting creds in Necromunda, or crushing heads in Blood Bowl.

And it's those systems that I've stuck with; I haven't had a game of Warhammer or 40k in a couple of years.

i want bodies. dead bodies should reduce movement speed when passing over, and destroyed larger vehicles should become cover and impassable when destroyed. no more of this simply removing the miniature from the board.

Me too; I use to play MageKnights too, but I fear both MechWarrior and MageKnights have ether basically died (MechWarrior) or completely (MageKnights)

:(

Mechwarrior/Battletech is the recent popular game in my circle. The only trouble is all the bookkeeping involved. (I hit your Hellspawn with my medium laser on the left leg and my Incindiary Streak SRM 4 launcher on the center torso, your AMS system shoots down all my missiles but increases your heat factor buy 4 points plus you fired your jump jets meaning for your next turn you lose 30 meters of movement points....). When people start customizing battlemechs, especially between scenarios to try and maximize thier efficiency games can grind down to 40-60 minute combat rounds. :(

We also play Shadowrun, 7th Sea, Dnd 2 and 3 and 3.5, Star Wars RPG 3rd Ed. World of Warcraft Tabletop, Risk, we stopped playing Axis and Allies when games lasted for several sessions at once, Keys to the Kingdom, and much more... between us all (a large group between 4-10 people depending on schedules) we own almost 100 gaming books and upwards of 5 pounds of dice.We meet every Saturday night that we have nothing better to do and sometimes on fridays. I don't know whether to be proud or concerned :D

*sniffs* I hope I didn't kill this thread

*sniffs* I hope I didn't kill this thread
Maybe you did! *loads Bolter*

Mechwarrior/Battletech is the recent popular game in my circle. The only trouble is all the bookkeeping involved. (I hit your Hellspawn with my medium laser on the left leg and my Incindiary Streak SRM 4 launcher on the center torso, your AMS system shoots down all my missiles but increases your heat factor buy 4 points plus you fired your jump jets meaning for your next turn you lose 30 meters of movement points....). When people start customizing battlemechs, especially between scenarios to try and maximize thier efficiency games can grind down to 40-60 minute combat rounds. :(

We also play Shadowrun, 7th Sea, Dnd 2 and 3 and 3.5, Star Wars RPG 3rd Ed. World of Warcraft Tabletop, Risk, we stopped playing Axis and Allies when games lasted for several sessions at once, Keys to the Kingdom, and much more... between us all (a large group between 4-10 people depending on schedules) we own almost 100 gaming books and upwards of 5 pounds of dice.We meet every Saturday night that we have nothing better to do and sometimes on fridays. I don't know whether to be proud or concerned :D

My favorite mechs? two custom 100 tonners.

Long Bow. 20 (or was it 22) LRM 5's with one ton of ammo each.
Movement: Walk 1 run 2

I found that 4 LRM 5's have a Higher hit percentile than 1 LRM 20. and the carcasses on the battlefeild prove that.

Primary function, battlefield support.

and for close up protection, the

Sledgehammer:
Two Gauss rifles
advanced targetting
and 5 tons of ammo each.

The first time I brought those two out in a free for all 200 ton weight total... it was helarious.

I just started rolling for my missle strikes
Target: what are you shooting?
Me: LRM 5's
Target: [watches as I continue to roll dice] er... how many...
Me: hmm? oh about 20...

first salvo blew off his legs and left some nice damage to his torso and arms.

then another players mech came up within minimal range and walked into two gauss rifles from the sledge.

he wasn't feeling too well after that... they ended up having to gang up on me to take me out. :p

My favorite mechs? two custom 100 tonners.

Long Bow. 20 (or was it 22) LRM 5's with one ton of ammo each.
Movement: Walk 1 run 2

I found that 4 LRM 5's have a Higher hit percentile than 1 LRM 20. and the carcasses on the battlefeild prove that.

Primary function, battlefield support.

and for close up protection, the

Sledgehammer:
Two Gauss rifles
advanced targetting
and 5 tons of ammo each.

The first time I brought those two out in a free for all 200 ton weight total... it was helarious.

I just started rolling for my missle strikes
Target: what are you shooting?
Me: LRM 5's
Target: [watches as I continue to roll dice] er... how many...
Me: hmm? oh about 20...

first salvo blew off his legs and left some nice damage to his torso and arms.

then another players mech came up within minimal range and walked into two gauss rifles from the sledge.

he wasn't feeling too well after that... they ended up having to gang up on me to take me out. :p

I usually use tanks and aerospace and then follow up with Infantry and Mechs... yes I use the Mechs as support and prefer to use the 20-50 ton light and medium mechs for speed and easy customization.

I usually use tanks and aerospace and then follow up with Infantry and Mechs... yes I use the Mechs as support and prefer to use the 20-50 ton light and medium mechs for speed and easy customization.

True, but in our S&G games (Shits and Giggles) we specifiy Tanks only, Mechs only, as well as total tonnage.

the guy with 20 10 ton mechs really had a good time. :p

True, but in our S&G games (Shits and Giggles) we specifiy Tanks only, Mechs only, as well as total tonnage.

the guy with 20 10 ton mechs really had a good time. :p

OMG! I am not the only person who uses the term S&Gs.

Most of our games involve custom vehicles and continuing pilots. Ordinarily ends up only a few of the important units (ala battlemechs/aerospace) and someone concedes/retreats. Then we actually do salvage... we are such good strategists in the group that battles still last hours though.

One of my longest lasting units is a Scorpion Tank modded with a fusion engine, PPC, and Small Laser plus some extra armor. The crew is almost elite.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/SaintB/Irregulars.png

JuNii, you are familiar with the Crossbow OmniMech as found in the BattleTech Technical Readout: 3058, right? It's pretty much the Clanner's answer to the classic Crusader BattleMech. Come to think of it... was that custom LRM 5-carrier equipped with Inner Sphere hardware or the ClanTech equivalent? It sounds like a hilarious yet impressive fire support 'Mech!

So for those of you who, like me, have sprung our rent money on the new version of the 40K rules, what do you think?

Personally, I'm glad they got rid of those abstract LOS rules for the more logical WYSIWYG approach, and simplifying vehicle damage is nice.

Thoughts?

A bell curve system would be better (say, 2d6 or 2d10), making outliers unlikely instead of equally probable, also.
3d4

The 4-sider doesn't get enough love.

3d4

The 4-sider doesn't get enough love.

Clearly you have never sat upon one.

Clearly you have never sat upon one.
Stepping on them is worse.

I once lost a d4 in some deep pile carpet. Then I found it.

Stepping on them is worse.

I once lost a d4 in some deep pile carpet. Then I found it.

ouchie... :(

Um.. the book is the 3050 book.


No. Page 91 of the BattleTech Technical Readout 3025 features the artwork of the now unseen TDR-5S Thunderbolt while it squashes said scout vehicle under its left foot. Mind you, in later editions of this Technical Readout you won't be able to find the Thunderbolt, since it's one of the designs that was licensed from the creators of the Dougram mecha anime.

No. Page 91 of the BattleTech Technical Readout 3025 features the artwork of the now unseen TDR-5S Thunderbolt while it squashes said scout vehicle under its left foot. Mind you, in later editions of this Technical Readout you won't be able to find the Thunderbolt, since it's one of the designs that was licensed from the creators of the Dougram mecha anime.

I just meant as opposed to 2050, but you are correct, as the 3025 book (The original one) also had a bunch of Robotech designs (Like the Wasp/Veritech VF-1S or the Warhammer/Excalibur destroid)

They've redone the book with original artwork to take the place of the old copyrighted designs.

Well, actually, the game that has it for me is Battlefleet: Gothic.

It is simple, it is based in a nice universe, (WH40K), has enough share of tactics as to avoid being repetitive, you can invent a lot of variations for the spaceships, and is still simple enough to master it quickly.

Regarding RP rules, I can still remember how bored we were with the Warhammer Roleplay rules:

- Roll under your Weapon Skill to hit.
- The opponent rolls Weapon Skill to see if he parries
- The opponent rolls Agility to see if he dodges
- If it is a hit, you roll for location
- Roll damage, add modifiers by strenght, then weapon, then talents
- Substract armor points and toughness modifier from total damage
- Subtract wounds
- Check for a critical hit
- Check the type of critical hit
- Read the critical hit bestowed, in a different chart that is dependant on the weapon used. (The best part, something alongside the lines of detail as "your weapon pierces his spleen and impact against the bones of his spine, sharp pain inducing him to scream as he checks toughness to see if he falls helpless from neural overhaul and loss of blood. Then he must check to see if he is paralyzed from the neck down for the rest of his life, unless a Surgery Check is made in the next 1d10/2 minutes")

I play "Epic 40'000" and "Mordheim". They totally satisfy my wargamer hunger.

Epic 40'000 has got the epic battles, the crushing maneuvers, the rows of tanks speeding ahead, the barrages of artillery ... epic blood bath in a fun and harmless package!

Mordheim has got the cool setting, the dirty mercenaries, acrobatic combat, the accumulation of experience and booty ... killing and looting for the urban pirate!

My only wish would be more players (and more scenarios for "Mordheim"). :(

So for those of you who, like me, have sprung our rent money on the new version of the 40K rules, what do you think?

Personally, I'm glad they got rid of those abstract LOS rules for the more logical WYSIWYG approach, and simplifying vehicle damage is nice.

Thoughts?

I think the FNP change hurts some armies, but was probably needed. Same with the rending rules change.

The simplified damage chart for vehicles is good. I don't like the idea of assaulting buildings, and I think they went overboard on the "go to ground" and cover save options.

Combine that with building assaulting and they've made buildings simultaniously more and less viable strategy.

Getting rid of area terrain was nice. I'm not sure whether or not I like that change to ordinance fire. Makes putting demonic possession on a vindicator a bit less of a no brainer now.

My only wish would be more players (and more scenarios for "Mordheim").

You could always try your hand at writing your own scenarios.

I think they went overboard on the "go to ground" and cover save options.

Definitally. All the ways one gets a cover save now IMO makes flamers the no brainer special weapon of choice. Especially considering in the next marine 'dex a 10 man tac squad gets one for free.


My Salamanders are happy. I doubt very many other people are:p.

It's bad manners to step on tanks, every MechWarrior knows that.

Only freebirth scum concern themselves with manners.

Tabletop games I play: Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, Battletech.

My Salamanders are happy. I doubt very many other people are:p.

It makes me quite happy to have started a tzeentch demon list. Have you SEEN what Breath of Chaos does? It's disgusting. It's basically a flamer that doesn't give armor.

It makes me quite happy to have started a tzeentch demon list. Have you SEEN what Breath of Chaos does? It's disgusting. It's basically a flamer that doesn't give armor.

Yeah, not looking foward to that. Looks like my terminators may start having uses again.



All I know is in a recent game using 5th edition, I whiped out an entire IG platoon, packed closely together in one small area of cover, with one flamer shot. My smile was thiiiiiiiiiiis big.

Yeah, not looking foward to that. Looks like my terminators may start having uses again.



All I know is in a recent game using 5th edition, I whiped out an entire IG platoon, packed closely together in one small area of cover, with one flamer shot. My smile was thiiiiiiiiiiis big.

recent game, imagine a setup where to my left I had a bloodthirster, then moving right was a unit of horrors, a building, and a unit of flamers. Death company assaulted and wiped out the unit of horrors, and, deciding to hide from the bloodthirster, consolodated into the building.

So I surrounded the building with the demonic flamers and let fly 6 shots of breath of chaos which, under the new rules, negates feel no pain.

6 templates dropped on a unit clustered together. Death company was toast.

recent game, imagine a setup where to my left I had a bloodthirster, then moving right was a unit of horrors, a building, and a unit of flamers. Death company assaulted and wiped out the unit of horrors, and, deciding to hide from the bloodthirster, consolodated into the building.

So I surrounded the building with the demonic flamers and let fly 6 shots of breath of chaos which, under the new rules, negates feel no pain.

6 templates dropped on a unit clustered together. Death company was toast.


Damn.


Speaking of which, the new feel no pain are another change Im not so happy about. I also dont really care for the new CC weapons rule, where you no longer get +1 attack for having another weapon aside from a Thunder Hammer or Powerfist unless its another Thunder Hammer or Powerfist.


But other then that, I actually really do like the new rules. Especially the vehical damage charts and having modifiers for armor penetration. Makes my land raider crusaders (soon to become a Land Raider Redeemer) all the more scary.

I've definitely realized that with the new rules playing Black Templars becomes more tricky, as they're meant to be a strong close combat force by making the most of special rules like massacre and consolidate... but those things are a little different now than before.

I've also learned, from a disastrous game against my son's Eldar, that I need much more heavy firepower.

Damn.


Speaking of which, the new feel no pain are another change Im not so happy about. I also dont really care for the new CC weapons rule, where you no longer get +1 attack for having another weapon aside from a Thunder Hammer or Powerfist unless its another Thunder Hammer or Powerfist.


But other then that, I actually really do like the new rules. Especially the vehical damage charts and having modifiers for armor penetration. Makes my land raider crusaders (soon to become a Land Raider Redeemer) all the more scary.

Also, sadly, makes them vulnerable. I lost my Crusader one turn after my younger son lost his Land Raider when we were playing against my older son and his godforsaken Eldar. (At first we consoled ourselves by the fact that he was supported by our friend using his old Harlequin list, until we realized that for the most part the harlequins had been kept at bay my my assault cannons and didn't really make much difference.)

Damn fire dragons...

Damn fire dragons...

Tell your son real men play Ulthwe and therefore only use Guardians;)

Tell your son real men play Ulthwe and therefore only use Guardians;)

I'll tell him, but frankly as effective as those Fire Dragons are against Land Raiders... I can't see a good reason not to stick with 'em.

The problem is his tactic is to fly them in on a Scorpion which, being fast as hell gives a -1 on the vehicle damage table and it has some other upgrade that turns a crew stunned result into a crew shaken. This means your odds of destroying it on its way in aren't good. He zooms in, parks it next to your tank, deploys the Fire Dragons, and melts your armor off.

I'll tell him, but frankly as effective as those Fire Dragons are

Yeah, especially since even an Ulthwe player like myself will use at least one aspet warrior.


Ive actually never had much like with Fire Dragons myself, I always prefered a Wraithlord with Brightlance and 2 Vypers with Eldar Missile Launchers as my anti-armor.

Yeah, especially since even an Ulthwe player like myself will use at least one aspet warrior.


Ive actually never had much like with Fire Dragons myself, I always prefered a Wraithlord with Brightlance and 2 Vypers with Eldar Missile Launchers as my anti-armor.

It would seem to me that your tactic would be most effective against an opponent whose army was all about close combat, like Black Templars or Khorne Chaos Marines. My son's tactic would be absolutely murderous against a force like the Tau, who melt in close combat anyway.

You could always try your hand at writing your own scenarios.

True! We made one actually. It was kind of "Free the boss". One band abducted the leader of the other band and they have to escape ...

If you want firepower in WH40K, there's little that can beat the Titans. Unfortunately those things are not really playable outside WH40K Epic, even though I've seen a few 25mm Titans.

If you want firepower in WH40K, there's little that can beat the Titans. Unfortunately those things are not really playable outside WH40K Epic, even though I've seen a few 25mm Titans.

Apocalypse. Has the rules for 40k scale titans. They also cost 2500 points each...

Apocalypse. Has the rules for 40k scale titans. They also cost 2500 points each...

How is Apoc? I havent played it yet because I initially viewed it as a gimic, but its quickly getting popular round here and in my gaming group. Is there something to it?

How is Apoc? I havent played it yet because I initially viewed it as a gimic, but its quickly getting popular round here and in my gaming group. Is there something to it?

it's an excuse to throw everything you own on a tabletop, that's pretty much it. It's more or less a $50 rulebook that goes "screw balance, there are no rules! Want 50 HQs? Go for it!" I coulda come up with that on my own.

It is handy for the datasheets, but what I find funny are those who rigorously stick to the book of rules (IE we have to play apocalypse the way the book says!) when the fundamental principle of the book is, play it however you want.

Miniature wargaming fundamentalists are a peculiar breed.

I'll tell him, but frankly as effective as those Fire Dragons are against Land Raiders... I can't see a good reason not to stick with 'em.

The problem is his tactic is to fly them in on a Scorpion which, being fast as hell gives a -1 on the vehicle damage table and it has some other upgrade that turns a crew stunned result into a crew shaken. This means your odds of destroying it on its way in aren't good. He zooms in, parks it next to your tank, deploys the Fire Dragons, and melts your armor off.

I've not seen an army list in years, but the way we used to deal with that problem - in the old days - was suppression. Whatever cheap units (even mercs) you can get, with stuff like heavy stubbers, or heavy bolters if you can get them. Sure - they're poxy, for the most part... but it's that old trade-off of one 4-6 shot with a las-cannon or something, and 12 dice hitting the table.

If you want firepower in WH40K, there's little that can beat the Titans. Unfortunately those things are not really playable outside WH40K Epic, even though I've seen a few 25mm Titans.

About 14 ago I played against a buddy's Eldar army (I had generic Space Marines) and he fielded an actual ForgeWorld titan. I forget what it was called but it was the smallish (relatively) Eldar titan.

In the first round of the game one of my Space Marines with a Krak missile launcher hit the ammo mag on the titan and blew it off the table. My buddy, in disgust, immediately conceded the game, threw that every expensive model in the trash, and didn't play again until about a month ago. (He was the guy with the Harlequins)

I've not seen an army list in years, but the way we used to deal with that problem - in the old days - was suppression. Whatever cheap units (even mercs) you can get, with stuff like heavy stubbers, or heavy bolters if you can get them. Sure - they're poxy, for the most part... but it's that old trade-off of one 4-6 shot with a las-cannon or something, and 12 dice hitting the table.

My problem is the Black Templars are somewhat out of their element outside of hand to hand. There's even a special rule that says if you fire on a Black Templar unit, and score even one single kill, they have to take a Leadership test or move TOWARD you. I can see this as a very effective way to keep a Black Templar force from being able to fire its heavy weapons...

Methinks I need to get busy on my Tau army...

it's an excuse to throw everything you own on a tabletop, that's pretty much it. It's more or less a $50 rulebook that goes "screw balance, there are no rules! Want 50 HQs? Go for it!" I coulda come up with that on my own.

It is handy for the datasheets, but what I find funny are those who rigorously stick to the book of rules (IE we have to play apocalypse the way the book says!) when the fundamental principle of the book is, play it however you want.

Huh. Sounds like a complete waste of $50. Its pretty easy IMO in your gamig group to say "Hey! Lets play with whatever we feel like, screw the FOC!" In fact, we've done that years before Apoc came out;)

I would, however, like to field my Chaos marines in an Apoc game and us the new Angron rules that just came out, just because a Daemon Primarch is pretty flippin sweet.



EDIT: We hijacked this thread lol. I feel like I should (or someone should) make a warhamer/40k thread.


EDIT EDIT: Whats funny to me is that Im talking about Warhammer 40k here, and usually when Im on NSG I have a few other tabs with the other forums I visit up as well, and one of them that Im also always on is Bolter and Chainsword.

it's an excuse to throw everything you own on a tabletop, that's pretty much it. It's more or less a $50 rulebook that goes "screw balance, there are no rules! Want 50 HQs? Go for it!" I coulda come up with that on my own.

It is handy for the datasheets, but what I find funny are those who rigorously stick to the book of rules (IE we have to play apocalypse the way the book says!) when the fundamental principle of the book is, play it however you want.

That seems convenient, though. One of the things that always turned me away from strategic tabletop gaming like Warhammer was how intricate the rules could get. Hell at one point you had to calculate the velocity of your vehicle if you were firing while moving in 40k. Things have gotten better, but it's still fairly annoying having to consult a bunch of tables every time you want to pretend-blast something to bits.

Of course, I'm a pen and paper gamer, so maybe I'm being a little hypocritical.

Of course, I'm a pen and paper gamer, so maybe I'm being a little hypocritical.

isn't Pen and Paper Gaming the same as Tabletop Gaming?

isn't Pen and Paper Gaming the same as Tabletop Gaming?

Well I sort of took Tabletop to mean action figures and strategic placement, like Warhammer or Battletech. I'm talking more Shadowrun and D&D.

Well I sort of took Tabletop to mean action figures and strategic placement, like Warhammer or Battletech. I'm talking more Shadowrun and D&D.

Quite right, although there can be some overlap.

For example, AD&D was originally meant to be played with miniatures. That's why spell ranges and distance are given in inches. It assumes 25mm size miniatures to represent the characters and monsters.

Quite right, although there can be some overlap.

For example, AD&D was originally meant to be played with miniatures. That's why spell ranges and distance are given in inches. It assumes 25mm size miniatures to represent the characters and monsters.

4th edition is shaping up to be similar in concept. We so far have had to map every encounter out because of how much more involved spacing and positioning is in 4th than it is in 3.0 and 3.5. The biggest problem is the rules for vertical movement and aerial combat still don't work out too well, so figuring out how the rules work for a rogue desperately clinging to an air-borne dragon as he stabs it to death in its soft bits is a little involved.

Still, the dragon died, so I guess it's not too involved. ;)

Probably the most annoying part of it is that everything is worked out in "squares," each of which is 5 feet. No real change to the actual mechanic, but a cosmetic change in how its presented to the players. Makes it feel more like you're playing an MMO than RPing characters in a fictional world.

About 14 ago I played against a buddy's Eldar army (I had generic Space Marines) and he fielded an actual ForgeWorld titan. I forget what it was called but it was the smallish (relatively) Eldar titan.

In the first round of the game one of my Space Marines with a Krak missile launcher hit the ammo mag on the titan and blew it off the table. My buddy, in disgust, immediately conceded the game, threw that every expensive model in the trash, and didn't play again until about a month ago. (He was the guy with the Harlequins)


Wasn't that a "Phantom" class titan? Soooo long ago...

We only had one Eldar player in our Epic circle... mostly, we played Marines and Chaos.


My problem is the Black Templars are somewhat out of their element outside of hand to hand. There's even a special rule that says if you fire on a Black Templar unit, and score even one single kill, they have to take a Leadership test or move TOWARD you. I can see this as a very effective way to keep a Black Templar force from being able to fire its heavy weapons...

Methinks I need to get busy on my Tau army...

What's this Tau, eh?

What's wrong with good old fashioned marines, with a Guard contingent?

4th edition is shaping up to be similar in concept. We so far have had to map every encounter out because of how much more involved spacing and positioning is in 4th than it is in 3.0 and 3.5. The biggest problem is the rules for vertical movement and aerial combat still don't work out too well, so figuring out how the rules work for a rogue desperately clinging to an air-borne dragon as he stabs it to death in its soft bits is a little involved.

Still, the dragon died, so I guess it's not too involved. ;)

Unless that Rogue was stabbing the stomach and the dragon belly flops as it crashes.

then I think the Rogue might want to know exactly when to jump off before he becomes a smear on Smaug. :D

Unless that Rogue was stabbing the stomach and the dragon belly flops as it crashes.

then I think the Rogue might want to know exactly when to jump off before he becomes a smear on Smaug. :D

Shadar-Kai have a 15-foot (fine, 3 square :mad:) teleport ability that lets them take half-damage from all attacks for the duration of the round. So as the dragon was flying into the air, I jumped and teleported onto its back, then grabbed some scales, exposed some skin, and started stabbing. It took two rounds of it trying to get me off its back before I did enough damage to bring it down.

I would've still taken a ton of damage from the fall if I hadn't gotten a 20 on my Acrobatics roll.

4th edition is shaping up to be similar in concept. We so far have had to map every encounter out because of how much more involved spacing and positioning is in 4th than it is in 3.0 and 3.5. The biggest problem is the rules for vertical movement and aerial combat still don't work out too well, so figuring out how the rules work for a rogue desperately clinging to an air-borne dragon as he stabs it to death in its soft bits is a little involved.

Still, the dragon died, so I guess it's not too involved. ;)

Probably the most annoying part of it is that everything is worked out in "squares," each of which is 5 feet. No real change to the actual mechanic, but a cosmetic change in how its presented to the players. Makes it feel more like you're playing an MMO than RPing characters in a fictional world.
I do not acknowledge the existence of this '4th Edition.' Nor anything after 2nd for that matter.

(Although I know it was specifically meant to be more computer game friendly. Ick.)

Wasn't that a "Phantom" class titan? Soooo long ago...

We only had one Eldar player in our Epic circle... mostly, we played Marines and Chaos.


It might have been... That sounds about right.


What's this Tau, eh?

What's wrong with good old fashioned marines, with a Guard contingent?

The Tau is an Empire separate form the Imperium and is composed of a variety of alien races, and are an army that relies entirely on ranged combat and maneuvering. They're all about the high tech and, unlike the Imperium, they actually UNDERSTAND the technology they're using. Their weakness is that they are no match for anybody in close combat.

AFAIK it's not possible (Using strict Codex interpretation) to mix Marines and IG anymore. The Space Marines are considered completely independent factions that, while answerable only to the Emperor himself, are otherwise completely autonomous in their implementation of his 'will.'

I do not acknowledge the existence of this '4th Edition.' Nor anything after 2nd for that matter.

(Although I know it was specifically meant to be more computer game friendly. Ick.)

Yeah, and you get the feel for that as you read through the books. The MM has encounter groups set up for quick and easy randomized encounters, and each monster has a designated type as to where it would fit into combat and how it would act (but also as qualities for the monster. Things like Leader, Elite, Skirmisher, etc.)

And all of the Powers feel like WoW skills rather than the spells of old. Adds a nice level of versatility for melee classes though. My rogue has the ability to blind every enemy in a fifteen by fifteen foot radius once per day, and positioning is a big thing too. Most classes have abilities that allow you to shift or slide enemies around the battlefield, either to set up for a flank to facilitate a sneak attack or to better make use of terrain.

That part worked out somewhat amusingly when our DM put in a big gaping hole in the middle of an encounter. We used our positioning-related powers to move half the enemies over the hall, dropping them to their deaths.

Yeah, and you get the feel for that as you read through the books. The MM has encounter groups set up for quick and easy randomized encounters, and each monster has a designated type as to where it would fit into combat and how it would act (but also as qualities for the monster. Things like Leader, Elite, Skirmisher, etc.)

And all of the Powers feel like WoW skills rather than the spells of old. Adds a nice level of versatility for melee classes though. My rogue has the ability to blind every enemy in a fifteen by fifteen foot radius once per day, and positioning is a big thing too. Most classes have abilities that allow you to shift or slide enemies around the battlefield, either to set up for a flank to facilitate a sneak attack or to better make use of terrain.

That part worked out somewhat amusingly when our DM put in a big gaping hole in the middle of an encounter. We used our positioning-related powers to move half the enemies over the hall, dropping them to their deaths.

:cries: :(

:cries: :(

What? Fuckers sprayed me with acid. They had it coming, I tell ya.

What? Fuckers sprayed me with acid. They had it coming, I tell ya.

I weep for what AD&D has devolved into.

I weep for what AD&D has devolved into.

I dunno. Casters sort of got the shaft. Wizards no longer have the combat versatility they once had, and are largely the AoE class. Warlocks have taken over for Sorcerers as the brute spellcaster, and have some neat abilities related to their Curse feature.

But melee classes across the board are ten times more enjoyable than they ever were under AD&D and even 3rd edition. Mainly because they can now do more than just stand there, attack, and hope the enemy doesn't decide to move and kill the caster first instead of letting the melee character tank/DPS.

For instance, warriors and paladins can now do something called "Marking." A marked target suffers certain penalties (they vary between Palis and Fighters) when attacking characters other than the Marking Fighter/Pali. More importantly for Fighters, when they get an attack of opportunity on a Mark that is moving away, and they hit, the target has to stop moving, which means it's now considerably less of a hassle to keep the clothies from getting the snot beaten out of them.

Rogues can now Sneak Attack practically every round, and while it does less damage overall, Sneak Attacks are now a damage mod to an existing attack, rather than a separate attack unto themselves. So for instance one can use a Daily Power that does 2d6 damage to the target and slows them until they save against the effect, and tack on 2d6 (2d8 with a feat) Sneak Attack damage. At level 1.

I dunno. Casters sort of got the shaft. Wizards no longer have the combat versatility they once had, and are largely the AoE class. Warlocks have taken over for Sorcerers as the brute spellcaster, and have some neat abilities related to their Curse feature.


It has bewildered me since the advent of 3rd Edition why there needed to be separate magic systems between Wizards and Sorcerers. The source of magic for one was an innate power yet for another it was a totally different premise of study? Inconsistent to the extreme. It was like they couldn't decide which magic mythos to go with so they just tossed them both in.


But melee classes across the board are ten times more enjoyable than they ever were under AD&D and even 3rd edition. Mainly because they can now do more than just stand there, attack, and hope the enemy doesn't decide to move and kill the caster first instead of letting the melee character tank/DPS.

For instance, warriors and paladins can now do something called "Marking." A marked target suffers certain penalties (they vary between Palis and Fighters) when attacking characters other than the Marking Fighter/Pali. More importantly for Fighters, when they get an attack of opportunity on a Mark that is moving away, and they hit, the target has to stop moving, which means it's now considerably less of a hassle to keep the clothies from getting the snot beaten out of them.

See, this is straight out of an MMO. Root spells to keep the mobs form agroing on your cloth armored DPS people... If I want to play an MMO I have EverQuest II. I play AD&D to have something DIFFERENT.

(And yes, the irony of that statement isn't lost on me. I'm a fantasy gamer. I play AD&D, EverQuest II and Warhammer Fantasy. to me, the differences are humongous. I know to an outside observer it might seem like I'm splitting hairs. ;) )


Rogues can now Sneak Attack practically every round, and while it does less damage overall, Sneak Attacks are now a damage mod to an existing attack, rather than a separate attack unto themselves. So for instance one can use a Daily Power that does 2d6 damage to the target and slows them until they save against the effect, and tack on 2d6 (2d8 with a feat) Sneak Attack damage. At level 1.

What monster could they possibly be fighting at level 1 that justifies that amount of damage output? Even a 'boss' monster is only going to have somewhere around 20 hitpoints or so max and if a Rogue can do t hat kind of damage, it doesn't leave much for the other adventurers to do...

It has bewildered me since the advent of 3rd Edition why there needed to be separate magic systems between Wizards and Sorcerers. The source of magic for one was an innate power yet for another it was a totally different premise of study? Inconsistent to the extreme. It was like they couldn't decide which magic mythos to go with so they just tossed them both in.

To some extent it made sense. Many monsters have latent magical abilities, and so the assumption was that a sorcerer was descended of a union of those sorts of monsters with their base race. Descendants of half-dragons, half-demons, half-celestials, etc. If you knew how to work in a good backstory, you could pull it off in a way that it didn't look gimmicked.

Wizards on the other hand lacked any inherent magical ability and were forced to research magic in an effort to understand and cast spells. It led to them being more versatile, because unlike sorcerers their spells weren't in-born and could be decided upon on a day's notice, but meant that they generally had to devote more time to study and couldn't have as many spells available to them at any one time.

See, this is straight out of an MMO. Root spells to keep the mobs form agroing on your cloth armored DPS people... If I want to play an MMO I have EverQuest II. I play AD&D to have something DIFFERENT.

(And yes, the irony of that statement isn't lost on me. I'm a fantasy gamer. I play AD&D, EverQuest II and Warhammer Fantasy. to me, the differences are humongous. I know to an outside observer it might seem like I'm splitting hairs. ;) )

Oh, no. I totally get what you're saying, and you're entirely right. However, it is somewhat fun to no longer have to your enemies attack based on dice rolls from the DM (i.e. rolling a d4 between four characters to determine which one gets attacked), and if you're going to have a DM strategize monster attacks instead, it makes sense to give player characters tools to counter-strategize.

What monster could they possibly be fighting at level 1 that justifies that amount of damage output? Even a 'boss' monster is only going to have somewhere around 20 hitpoints or so max and if a Rogue can do t hat kind of damage, it doesn't leave much for the other adventurers to do...

4th edition monsters have gotten beefy. And I mean beefy. Keep in mind that starting HP in 4th edition is based on a set number (I think 12 for fighters) plus your constitution SCORE, and that HP gain per level is now a set amount for all players rather than random. (Again, like an MMO). So a Fighter with 18 Constitution has 30 HP at level 1.

Level 1 Kobold Skirmisher-types have 27 HP, which is pretty average for level 1 monsters. Many monsters, even up to level 20 are of a designation "Minion," meaning that any time they take damage, they die, meaning it's much easier to handle mass encounters now, from a book-keeping perspective. (This isn't new, in fact. The Spycraft and Spycraft 2.0 gaming systems have a similar Minion enemy-type that works much like this).

By contrast, a level 4 Kobold Lurker-type has 42 HP. A level 6 Kruthik Hive Lord (basically giant acidic spider-ticks) has 148 HP. A level 29 Godforged Colossus has 662 HP. The Tarrasque is now level 30 and has 1420 HP.

To some extent it made sense. Many monsters have latent magical abilities, and so the assumption was that a sorcerer was descended of a union of those sorts of monsters with their base race. Descendants of half-dragons, half-demons, half-celestials, etc. If you knew how to work in a good backstory, you could pull it off in a way that it didn't look gimmicked.

Wizards on the other hand lacked any inherent magical ability and were forced to research magic in an effort to understand and cast spells. It led to them being more versatile, because unlike sorcerers their spells weren't in-born and could be decided upon on a day's notice, but meant that they generally had to devote more time to study and couldn't have as many spells available to them at any one time.

I ran a 3rd Edition game for a while, and my approach was to limit Sorcerers to Elven races (and half-elves) only, to reflect the inherent magical nature of the race. Humans had to be Wizards. It worked alright I guess.


Oh, no. I totally get what you're saying, and you're entirely right. However, it is somewhat fun to no longer have to your enemies attack based on dice rolls from the DM (i.e. rolling a d4 between four characters to determine which one gets attacked), and if you're going to have a DM strategize monster attacks instead, it makes sense to give player characters tools to counter-strategize.

I agree that the inherent magical abilities of many creatures and races seemed to run counter to the idea of magic spell study. In a way that does lend itself to the sorcerer/wizard split. (I grudgingly admit)


4th edition monsters have gotten beefy. And I mean beefy. Keep in mind that starting HP in 4th edition is based on a set number (I think 12 for fighters) plus your constitution SCORE, and that HP gain per level is now a set amount for all players rather than random. (Again, like an MMO). So a Fighter with 18 Constitution has 30 HP at level 1.

Holy smoke...

I don't know how familiar you are with 1st Edition but it was basically the max a Fighter could start with would be 10 (with a roll of 10 on a d10) + Constitution bonus of +4 at an 18 Constitution for a total of 14 HP.


Level 1 Kobold Skirmisher-types have 27 HP, which is pretty average for level 1 monsters. Many monsters, even up to level 20 are of a designation "Minion," meaning that any time they take damage, they die, meaning it's much easier to handle mass encounters now, from a book-keeping perspective. (This isn't new, in fact. The Spycraft and Spycraft 2.0 gaming systems have a similar Minion enemy-type that works much like this).

By contrast, a level 4 Kobold Lurker-type has 42 HP. A level 6 Kruthik Hive Lord (basically giant acidic spider-ticks) has 148 HP. A level 29 Godforged Colossus has 662 HP. The Tarrasque is now level 30 and has 1420 HP.

That minion system seems like more bookkeeping for the DM. I mean, I do see the streamlining benefit of not having to track damage for every single monster, but I like to tweak the monsters in my game to achieve something similar, but without the players being able to meta-game from knowledge of the creature ;)

I weep for what AD&D has devolved into.

agreed. 3.5 you had clerics with more powerful spells than wizards of the same level.

you had rogues and theives leveling faster than fighters and clerics

it was fucking messed up.

I ran a 3rd Edition game for a while, and my approach was to limit Sorcerers to Elven races (and half-elves) only, to reflect the inherent magical nature of the race. Humans had to be Wizards. It worked alright I guess.



I agree that the inherent magical abilities of many creatures and races seemed to run counter to the idea of magic spell study. In a way that does lend itself to the sorcerer/wizard split. (I grudgingly admit)

Yay grudging admittance! :D

Holy smoke...

I don't know how familiar you are with 1st Edition but it was basically the max a Fighter could start with would be 10 (with a roll of 10 on a d10) + Constitution bonus of +4 at an 18 Constitution for a total of 14 HP.

That's how it is in 3.5 as well, though every class starts with max d-type at level 1 (so Barbs always start with 12 + Con Mod, Fighters with 10 + Con Mod, etc.)

They've changed it a lot, but I don't mind it so much, as it means a level 1 party no longer crumbles against anything but goblins and kobolds. Our party of level 3s managed to down a level 6 encounter by sheer luck, which was that Hive Lord I mentioned. Big pain in the ass, too. Spits acid practically every round in a really wide area that does massive damage and has some serious debilitating effects.

That minion system seems like more bookkeeping for the DM. I mean, I do see the streamlining benefit of not having to track damage for every single monster, but I like to tweak the monsters in my game to achieve something similar, but without the players being able to meta-game from knowledge of the creature ;)

Well, to be honest it's worked out pretty well so far. When we first started and we encountered minions for the first time we were pretty happy to not have to wade through 30 monsters all with HP somewhat comparable to our own. It's much easier if you have a Wizard in the party, but given our party's distinct lack of a strong AoE character it's actually pretty tough, as they do around normal damage.

One of the things I like about it is that there's no longer saving throws in the old sense. Now, certain attacks are made against certain defense types, either your Armor (for most standard attacks), Reflex (AoEs and some other effects), Will (Obviously largely mental attacks), and Fort (against poisons, disease, etc.) No rolls from the defender, just a static number to be rolled against by the attacker much like AC. Saving throws still exist, but are altered. Now, most on-going effects can be ended by making a saving throw, which is just a flat d20 roll, where 10+ means you save and the effect ends.

(So if you're on fire and taking 5 fire damage every round, you make a d20 roll at the end of every round to see if the effect ends. Some cleric Powers allow you to make additional saving throws to give you better odds to avoid dying painfully in a charred mass.)

agreed. 3.5 you had clerics with more powerful spells than wizards of the same level.

you had rogues and theives leveling faster than fighters and clerics

it was fucking messed up.

Uhh...what? The XP threshold for classes are identical. Party XP is generally distributed evenly, so unless people are dying left and right, everyone should be levelling at the same pace.

Don't know about the cleric part, as we rarely had Clerics in the party.

The levels are the same, but the opportunities to gain XP are not.
take your typical actions in a party.
Find a trap (XP for Rogues)
Disarm trap (XP for Rogues)
successfully sneak past monster guards (XP for Rogues)
Gather information at tavern (XP for Rogues)
Pick someone's pocket (XP for Rogues)
Fight and kill monsters (XP for EVERYONE)
Heal party (No XP for clerics unless it furthers the Religion)
Track monster (XP for Rangers)
Successfully cast Spell (no XP unless it's a newly researched spell)
successfully cast spell from item (XP for Rogues, but no one else unless Item is special)

Rogues have more chances to gain XP than anyone else. Fighters got extra in 2nd edition Spell casters get extra when they cast their spells in 2nd Edition, but not so in 3D.

The levels are the same, but the opportunities to gain XP are not.
take your typical actions in a party.
Find a trap (XP for Rogues)
Disarm trap (XP for Rogues)
successfully sneak past monster guards (XP for Rogues)
Gather information at tavern (XP for Rogues)
Pick someone's pocket (XP for Rogues)
Fight and kill monsters (XP for EVERYONE)
Heal party (No XP for clerics unless it furthers the Religion)
Track monster (XP for Rangers)
Successfully cast Spell (no XP unless it's a newly researched spell)
successfully cast spell from item (XP for Rogues, but no one else unless Item is special)

Rogues have more chances to gain XP than anyone else. Fighters got extra in 2nd edition Spell casters get extra when they cast their spells in 2nd Edition, but not so in 3D.

That's rather silly. Itemizing XP gain is bound to slant XP gain towards Rogues. Even distribution makes significantly more sense unless a particular party member is clearly not contributing to the adventure.

Not to mention that giving out experience for sidequests and minor objectives rather than tricks and traps is much more reasonable if you're going to go with heavy itemization, since RP experience should always count much more than your ability to roll higher than a 14 on a d20 when you need it.

The Tau is an Empire separate form the Imperium and is composed of a variety of alien races, and are an army that relies entirely on ranged combat and maneuvering. They're all about the high tech and, unlike the Imperium, they actually UNDERSTAND the technology they're using. Their weakness is that they are no match for anybody in close combat.


Sounds like the Eldar, taken to the extreme...


AFAIK it's not possible (Using strict Codex interpretation) to mix Marines and IG anymore. The Space Marines are considered completely independent factions that, while answerable only to the Emperor himself, are otherwise completely autonomous in their implementation of his 'will.'

Space Marines were always totally independent. And because it used to be (at least for some chapters - I don't know how it is now) taken as read that Marines are taking orders directly from the Emperor, you could end up with some pretty weird combinations. In our group - we played whole campaign arcs with Marines siding with Eldar against Slaanesh, etc. It's the whole "The philosophy of The Emperor is not the philosophy of man" kinda thing.

The idea of separating Marines off to that extent is just crazy... but then, it's always seemed to me that GW has done everything it can to minimise allies and mercs. Probably because they'd rather you bought two whole armies. :(

That's rather silly. Itemizing XP gain is bound to slant XP gain towards Rogues. Even distribution makes significantly more sense unless a particular party member is clearly not contributing to the adventure.

Not to mention that giving out experience for sidequests and minor objectives rather than tricks and traps is much more reasonable if you're going to go with heavy itemization, since RP experience should always count much more than your ability to roll higher than a 14 on a d20 when you need it.

It is silly.

Sounds like the Eldar, taken to the extreme...


Kinda, although the difference is probably mostly in the fluff. While the Eldar are dying out the Tau Empire is expanding, and where Eldar tech is probably higher than Tau, it's also more like a mix of tech and art, while Tau tech is purely utilitarian and it has that look and feel.


Space Marines were always totally independent. And because it used to be (at least for some chapters - I don't know how it is now) taken as read that Marines are taking orders directly from the Emperor, you could end up with some pretty weird combinations. In our group - we played whole campaign arcs with Marines siding with Eldar against Slaanesh, etc. It's the whole "The philosophy of The Emperor is not the philosophy of man" kinda thing.

The idea of separating Marines off to that extent is just crazy... but then, it's always seemed to me that GW has done everything it can to minimise allies and mercs. Probably because they'd rather you bought two whole armies. :(

Yeah, I think it's done in order to make it easier to create scenarios where two Marine chapters might fight one another or something like that. If each Marine chapter implements what it believes to be the Emperor's will, but have slight differences in how they perceive it, it's very easy to create a scenario where they could come to blows.

The downside is sometimes it actually makes it impossible, under certain circumstances, to ally. For example, Black Templars will NOT fight on the same side as psykers (with the exception of Grey Knights). My wife has a Space Wolf army (Which she's selling because she'd rather play Sisters of Battle) that included a psyker which meant we couldn't join forces if she fielded that model, even though we're both nominally on the same side.

Kinda, although the difference is probably mostly in the fluff. While the Eldar are dying out the Tau Empire is expanding, and where Eldar tech is probably higher than Tau, it's also more like a mix of tech and art, while Tau tech is purely utilitarian and it has that look and feel.

The Tau are pretty unique since they have not been based upon one of the factions featured in the Warhammer fantasy miniature wargame. When I first saw Tau units, I was instantly reminded of the mechanical designs featured in scifi manga.

The Tau are pretty unique since they have not been based upon one of the factions featured in the Warhammer fantasy miniature wargame. When I first saw Tau units, I was instantly reminded of the mechanical designs featured in scifi manga.
I think that was essentially what they were going for, I think. Some of it does look shit-hot, especially the Stealth Suits.

Heavy bolters sort them out good, though. :p

Despite the fact that I've never played WH40K, I'm pretty sure that it's not always easy to get close enough with your heavy bolters-carrying units to do a real number on Tau units without having to absorb long range fire from them in the process.

Despite the fact that I've never played WH40K, I'm pretty sure that it's not always easy to get close enough with your heavy bolters-carrying units to do a real number on Tau units without having to absorb long range fire from them in the process.

also having never played WH40K... I must say that sending in slow heavy units... even infantry without support from artilery/caps is rather...


Never underestimate the power of artillery.

One B-Tech game we played, our unit commander called down artiliery strikes on several hexes at specified times. during the battle, one of his lance commanders forgot which hexes were being hit when. so imagine the horror when he moves his lance right on the hex that would be bombed in two rounds... the the relief as he moved away one round before the strike... and the enemy lance chasing him stepped onto that megahex the following round...

what was really priceless was the look on his face when saw what barely hit him...

The downside is sometimes it actually makes it impossible, under certain circumstances, to ally. For example, Black Templars will NOT fight on the same side as psykers (with the exception of Grey Knights). My wife has a Space Wolf army (Which she's selling because she'd rather play Sisters of Battle) that included a psyker which meant we couldn't join forces if she fielded that model, even though we're both nominally on the same side.

Well, you guys could still fight on the same side. I always read that "may not ally with psykers" as meaning they cant field pskers as allies in their FOC, like no allied Inquisitors with psychic powers.

I mean, itd be silly to have a rule telling you what players you cant team up with in a friendly game.

Think of it this way. There is a negative trait in the soon to be old SM codex that says you cannot take allies, its called "We Stand Alone" or something. By the definition you mentioned, that means that by taking that trait you could NEVER play a team game.


I always read rules about "allies" as meaning FOC allies, like Inquisition or Grey Knight troops. Not "allies" as in teaming up with other players.

Despite the fact that I've never played WH40K, I'm pretty sure that it's not always easy to get close enough with your heavy bolters-carrying units to do a real number on Tau units without having to absorb long range fire from them in the process.
The burst cannon on the stealth suits havea crappy range, way under that of heavy bolters and more or less close enough for their stealth thingy to be seen. So, they take enough shots over enough turns that they get plugged.

The rest of my Guard army, not so good. Tau pulse rifles have a good six inches on the good old lasgun, so a lot of them get mown down before they can land a shot.

Rail guns mince Leman Russ battle tanks.

Just a quick reminder that Turnsignals on a Landraider has its 5th anniversary coming up.

If you know the comic, you probably knew that.

If you didn't, go check it out now!

Just a quick reminder that Turnsignals on a Landraider has its 5th anniversary coming up.

If you know the comic, you probably knew that.

If you didn't, go check it out now!

Great... hooked on another web comic. thanks a fricken lot GN!

@ GN: You know it's bad when you don't play WH40K and yet you can still laugh at TSoaLR!

Been messing around with a variant of the Mechwarrior RPG rules created for a medieval style of RPG (the SOC trait really makes the transistion easy) set just after the sacking of Jeruselum before the 3rd Crusade (so ermm... 1147?). Very visceral and deadly combat makes it pretty intense sometimes.

Well, you guys could still fight on the same side. I always read that "may not ally with psykers" as meaning they cant field pskers as allies in their FOC, like no allied Inquisitors with psychic powers.

I mean, itd be silly to have a rule telling you what players you cant team up with in a friendly game.

Think of it this way. There is a negative trait in the soon to be old SM codex that says you cannot take allies, its called "We Stand Alone" or something. By the definition you mentioned, that means that by taking that trait you could NEVER play a team game.


I always read rules about "allies" as meaning FOC allies, like Inquisition or Grey Knight troops. Not "allies" as in teaming up with other players.

That makes sense, although it does sort of go against the 'fluff'

The Tau are pretty unique since they have not been based upon one of the factions featured in the Warhammer fantasy miniature wargame. When I first saw Tau units, I was instantly reminded of the mechanical designs featured in scifi manga.

It reminded me of the illustrations by Peter Elson or Homeworld which I always liked a lot.

Great... hooked on another web comic. thanks a fricken lot GN!
I'm not so sure I should say "You're welcome!"?
@ GN: You know it's bad when you don't play WH40K and yet you can still laugh at TSoaLR!
Oh, I can explain that one: It's a hilarious comic with great humor!!!

I've been reading TSoaLR myself for a while now, despite the fact that I have never played WH40K myself. Speaking with people who do play the game can be quite entertaining, however. Given my tendency to eagerly absorb useless knowledge, I've picked up quite a bit about the fictional world and the game mechanics of WH40K.