NationStates Jolt Archive


Fascist PRC, Russia and the legacy of the Communist Revolution

Daistallia 2104
10-08-2008, 07:20
I was just considering how well modern China fits Laurence Britt's 14 points of fascism.

Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.

5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.

6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.

7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.

14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2

The PRC fits this definition almost to a T, and most of them can be applied to Russia, as well.

If we at other officially "communist" governments and several post-communist ones, many range from strongly nationalistic, right-wing authoritarian democracy (Russia) to nationalistic, right-wing authoritarian dictatorships (Cuba, Vietnam) to outright fascism in the PRC and beyond to the totalitaria "psychotic" dictatorship of the DPRK. Note that most of the states that sucessfully made the transition to modern capitalist democracies had communism imposed by force from outside (Eastern Europe, basically, outside of the former Yugoslavia and Albania).

What does this mean for the legacy of the Communist Revolution in these countries? Did the Communist Revolution carry within it the seeds of fascism and did it inevitably lead to fascism?

Note for the communists here: please work from the position that these states were or are ""degenerated workers' states" or "deformed workers' states".
Vetalia
10-08-2008, 07:34
I think that's a rather broad definition of "fascism"...the original article includes virtually anything from the hardcore fascist states like Nazi Germany and Italy to modern-day autocratic capitalist states like Pinochet's Chile or even the PRC and Russia, despite the world of difference between them. In fact, any non-democratic right-wing regime falls under "fascism", including the archaic theocratic monarchies of Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states. This classification in my opinion is far too broad to accurately characterize the nature of fascism and the threat it poses.

In absolutely no dimension does the PRC or modern Russia for that matter approach Nazi Germany or the Stalinist USSR in terms of political, economic, and social controls on its citizens. This is especially true in personal and economic freedom, where the more wealthy citizens of those nations freely and legally indulge in activities that would have been brutally repressed and condemned as "degenerate" or "immoral" in classic fascist states. In those countries, even owning a telephone or computer, let alone possessing a household internet connection would be rare if not nonexistent; China's Great Firewall is certainly a deplorable example of censorship, but the very fact that their people can own and operate telecom devices with little or no real interference in their activities further weakens any real association with fascism.

If anything, it appears that the Communist Revolutions gave birth not to fascism, but to a weak authoritarianism comprised both of the economic backlash against state-imposed austerity (embodied by profligate consumption) and the desire of those populations for continued insulation against the instability such changes bring. The Chinese government doesn't care about what its people say, do, or buy so long as it doesn't pose a direct threat to their desired social stability...it's when they perceive actions as doing so that the abuses occur.
Barringtonia
10-08-2008, 08:51
Furthermore, I can see aspects of each point in almost any society to varying degrees. Each point seems to accord with human reactions when under threat or pressure, societal magnifications of individual behaviour.

When threatened, we look for support [nationalism, unity], we want to know what people think and control the message from our point of view [media control, spying], our needs become more important, our focus is on the end not the means [human rights abuse].

Highly controlling societies have similar attributes to paranoids but every nation is self-protective to some extent.
Non Aligned States
10-08-2008, 09:46
Point 4 doesn't apply. Current China glorifies civic works and national accomplishments more than militarism.

Point 5 is a cultural development that stems back from several thousand years ago, much like Japan's. The PRC had nothing to do with that.

Point 8, just no.

Point 11. Very true when the nut Mao was around. Not so much anymore.

Point 13. Every nation from the beginning of time has it in one form or another.

Point 14. The PRC has elections?
Biotopia
10-08-2008, 11:40
I don't think China is fascist, and since this is the NSG i don't even have to tell you why not :)
Yootopia
10-08-2008, 14:34
Uhu... that list would fit for many other states, including the US for about as many points as China, and almost everywhere for a couple of them at the moment, for points such as National Security Bullshit and The Creation of Scapegoats.

Also, I think his point of "anti-abortion and anti-homosexual" would be better expressed as the regime wanting control over the human body itself. China is not against abortion, and is in fact the absolute opposite. The same goes for the original and best fascist superpower, the Hittites, who also regarded having too many children as A Bad Thing and had every baby after the second for slaves and third for freemen put to death.
Voxio
11-08-2008, 14:23
As a Fascist I greatly dislike the "14 Points of Fascism." It's an inaccurate way to describe our ideology and it lumps all the similar totalitarian movements into one generic group. T

As far as the 14 points are conceerned, every state is a Fascist State
Stoklomolvi
11-08-2008, 14:55
The "14 Points of Fascism" is the largest piece of bullshit I have read since I've read the opposition to embryonic research. Addressing each point with a short and easy to counter statement, I defend the PRC as follows. I do not know enough about the inside politics of Russia to defend them.

1. If this even counts as fascism, then are all of the people who were rising up against Austria-Hungary due to their nationalistic pride and demand for their own nation fascists? Were the French after their revolution all fascists because they loved their country at that time? Are the Americans fascists because they wave little American flags around, respect the Marines like no other, and go around stomping on little nations? China has not actually invaded any foreign nation that does not sit on land that it claims as its own. That is, it has served as the defender almost exclusively since 1840, with the clash with the USSR over outer Manchuria as a disagreement over lands that the Russians took from China.

2. Human rights does not necessarily mean guarantee of freedom of speech, and all of those western freedoms that nobody really cares about in China. For instance, where I currently stay everyone is fine with the government. When I ask them if they dislike the lack of a true freedom of speech or vote, they don't care.

3. China does not identify any group as evil.

4. The ruling "elite" is not a military junta, nor is it tightly associated with the military. Sure, policemen are seen as communist by the west, but in China itself they're just civil defenders.

5. Is this not rampant throughout the world? From ancient times, people needed more men because they tended to be physically stronger. They ploughed fields and such, while the women often gathered and harvested. Both were vital to the ancient economy, but since men performed the heavier tasks they were viewed as more important. The injustice was present throughout the world; Greece, Japan, China, India, even your precious Europe.

6. This is true. However, it is for the best. If the media were not controlled, then chances are China may collapse; the huge population is hard to control. You can't really compare it to the United States, whose population is relatively small.

7. Everyone likes a stable, secure state. Look at your United States; after 9/11, everyone is all paranoid and such. Is the United States a fascist state? I think not.

8. Epic fail.

9. Uh, every country wants a strong economy. Unless you're not a country.

10. Untrue. The poor are not suppressed in any way; they set up their shops around cities, such as Beijing, selling produce and goods to local residents. The police don't care; the poor aren't given as many subsidies as one might think, but hey, with a population of 1.3-1.4 billion+ it's hard to give subsidies to every poor person. The census is likely a bit inaccurate, with some families concealing exactly how many children they have to get the benefit of the one-child policy while having enough children to work their fields, etc.

11. True during Mao. He was a good fellow, but as time went on his policies got a bit odd. Now, intellectuals are regarded as the highest of the elite; going to 北大 (Beida) is regarded as awesome.

12. If you use statistics alone, the fact that 1,000+ people are executed means little. China's population is gigantic in comparison to the rest of the world; besides, if you have done nothing wrong, then they won't harm you at all. Crime is also upped because of the large population; it's natural.

13. Every country has its corruption. China is no different.

14. Elections?
Barringtonia
11-08-2008, 15:26
The "14 Points of Fascism" is the largest piece of bullshit I have read since I've read the opposition to embryonic research. Addressing each point with a short and easy to counter statement, I defend the PRC as follows. I do not know enough about the inside politics of Russia to defend them.

As much as I'm going to refute you, this is much off the top of my head so pinch of salt and all that...

1. If this even counts as fascism, then are all of the people who were rising up against Austria-Hungary due to their nationalistic pride and demand for their own nation fascists? Were the French after their revolution all fascists because they loved their country at that time? Are the Americans fascists because they wave little American flags around, respect the Marines like no other, and go around stomping on little nations? China has not actually invaded any foreign nation that does not sit on land that it claims as its own. That is, it has served as the defender almost exclusively since 1840, with the clash with the USSR over outer Manchuria as a disagreement over lands that the Russians took from China.

On some level this is true, all ruling powers use nationalism to promote themselves. Yet the extent to which society can question the assumptions made from nationalism is curtailed in different countries. Possibly the best way to view control in society is the difference between what the government promotes and what people privately think. People can express private thought far greater in the US than China, that much is true.

2. Human rights does not necessarily mean guarantee of freedom of speech, and all of those western freedoms that nobody really cares about in China. For instance, where I currently stay everyone is fine with the government. When I ask them if they dislike the lack of a true freedom of speech or vote, they don't care.

Freedom of speech is, I would say, the most fundamental freedom. The twisting of words to political ends is possibly the true oldest profession. There's societal pressure to conform and there's state-sponsored punishment of dissenting, these are very different freedoms of speech. The censorship of the Internet is representative of the control of speech.

3. China does not identify any group as evil.

Yes it does, those who bring instability to the state, whether that's religious, errant thought, political polemic. Anyone a threat to the powers that be are a group defined as evil. That's true of any system.

4. The ruling "elite" is not a military junta, nor is it tightly associated with the military. Sure, policemen are seen as communist by the west, but in China itself they're just civil defenders.

This is a complete lie, the CCP is military in origin and military by nature.

5. Is this not rampant throughout the world? From ancient times, people needed more men because they tended to be physically stronger. They ploughed fields and such, while the women often gathered and harvested. Both were vital to the ancient economy, but since men performed the heavier tasks they were viewed as more important. The injustice was present throughout the world; Greece, Japan, China, India, even your precious Europe.

I agree that this point is utterly wrong, I don't think inequality is inherent here.

6. This is true. However, it is for the best. If the media were not controlled, then chances are China may collapse; the huge population is hard to control. You can't really compare it to the United States, whose population is relatively small.

This is the greatest trick of any ruling power, making people more afraid of each other than those who rule. Think of those moments we find worst, the idea of your very child to betray you to authorities. The greatest propaganda is that life is dangerous when few of us have truly felt great personal danger. The most danger comes from being drawn into a war engineered by our own representatives.

People in China speak differently in public than private, about their very own government.

7. Everyone likes a stable, secure state. Look at your United States; after 9/11, everyone is all paranoid and such. Is the United States a fascist state? I think not.

My point exactly.

8. Epic fail.

Agreed.

9. Uh, every country wants a strong economy. Unless you're not a country.

The theory about how a strong economy is achieved is different though.

10. Untrue. The poor are not suppressed in any way; they set up their shops around cities, such as Beijing, selling produce and goods to local residents. The police don't care; the poor aren't given as many subsidies as one might think, but hey, with a population of 1.3-1.4 billion+ it's hard to give subsidies to every poor person. The census is likely a bit inaccurate, with some families concealing exactly how many children they have to get the benefit of the one-child policy while having enough children to work their fields, etc.

Communism as previously practiced can be considered as the greatest lie, to promote the idea that the worker had any free say in the running of society, where programs such as the danwei meant that someone's life was controlled down to the place he lived, the job he worked at, utterly open to corruption.

There's little protection for the worker, from the court system to the use of migrants, outside the law, unprotected by law.

11. True during Mao. He was a good fellow, but as time went on his policies got a bit odd. Now, intellectuals are regarded as the highest of the elite; going to 北大 (Beida) is regarded as awesome.

Let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend - seriously...

12. If you use statistics alone, the fact that 1,000+ people are executed means little. China's population is gigantic in comparison to the rest of the world; besides, if you have done nothing wrong, then they won't harm you at all. Crime is also upped because of the large population; it's natural.

I probably need to think more to answer this, I don't think China is obsessed with punishment as such but I don't know statistics here.

13. Every country has its corruption. China is no different.

Yes it is, it's entrenched. I think India's far worse but China's pretty bad.

14. Elections?

China does have local elections actually :)
Vetalia
11-08-2008, 17:42
I think the problem is that this is far too broad to accurately describe the nature of the PRC or Russia. The citizens in both nations are far freer in their personal, political and economic lives than in any of the former socialist states of the Eastern Bloc, let alone the classical fascist states like Germany, Italy or Japan or the theocratic dictatorships of Saudi Arabia and Iran. No fascist state on Earth would allow its people to access the internet or own telephones in considerable quantity; even if China's government censors its internet access, the very fact that people have it is a massive step forward in personal freedom.

They are not fascist by any stretch of the imagination, especially if you consider both governments' revival of the arts and literature in the years following the end of the USSR or Deng Xiaopeng's reforms. There is definitely still a strong element of government control and censorship, but the levels of freedom accorded people are simply inconsistent with any kind of fascism.

Unless heavy-handed attempts at maintaining social stability are the definition of fascism, neither Russia nor the PRC come anywhere close.
Hurdegaryp
11-08-2008, 17:51
Damn, where is Andaras when you need him?
Conserative Morality
11-08-2008, 18:06
China does have local elections actually :)
If I remember right, only 2% or so of the population is actually allowed to vote;).
Xomic
11-08-2008, 18:07
doesn't this make the USA a fascist state?
Conserative Morality
11-08-2008, 18:09
Damn, where is Andaras when you need him?

Let me try! *Ahem*

Fascism is a symbol of the oppressive bourgeois oppressing the proletariat...

Yeah, I'm not sure I can do anymore.:p
Yootopia
11-08-2008, 18:31
Damn, where is Andaras when you need him?
Fascism is not the legacy of any communist revolution, Fascism is, and always will remain, simply a knee-jerk reaction of the bourgeois classes to the threat of communist revolution you mistakenly see as another form of Fascism.

Any violence encountered after a communist revolution is, by nature, of a revolutionary, progressive type quite unlike the reactionary violence of a fascist state. The rallying call of the proletariat rising up, whether in a national, international or simply local form cannot be seen in the same way as the savage howls of Fascism, and any revolutionary justice towards the so-called intelligentsia must be seen in light of proletarian necessity.

Yes.
Daistallia 2104
11-08-2008, 18:34
Damn, where is Andaras when you need him?

Banned, IIRC.
Conserative Morality
11-08-2008, 18:43
Fascism is not the legacy of any communist revolution, Fascism is, and always will remain, simply a knee-jerk reaction of the bourgeois classes to the threat of communist revolution you mistakenly see as another form of Fascism.

Any violence encountered after a communist revolution is, by nature, of a revolutionary, progressive type quite unlike the reactionary violence of a fascist state. The rallying call of the proletariat rising up, whether in a national, international or simply local form cannot be seen in the same way as the savage howls of Fascism, and any revolutionary justice towards the so-called intelligentsia must be seen in light of proletarian necessity.

Yes.
Fine, fine, you win the best Andaras impersonation.:p
Hurdegaryp
11-08-2008, 20:14
Bonus points for style, even when you simply did a cut & paste.