NationStates Jolt Archive

Is Patriotism a myth? A kind of civil religion created by the government to control the masses? Ambrose Bierce has this to say about Patriotism >>"PATRIOT, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.

PATRIOTISM, n. Combustible rubbish ready to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.

In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first."<<

What do you?

I don't believe patriotism is a myth or the doing of the state. Having pride in your nation's history and accomplishments, whether they be civil, military, technological, etc, is to me the definition of patriotism, and a perfectly natural and expected emotion.

I would like to know what is so wrong about being proud to be a citizen of your country?

I would like to know what is so wrong about being proud to be a citizen of your country?
I second this.

"To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography."

-- George Santayana

"Patriot: he who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about."

-- Mark Twain

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

-– George Bernard Shaw

"There are two Americas. One is the America of Lincoln and Adlai Stevenson; the other is the America of Teddy Roosevelt and the modern superpatriots. One is generous and humane, the other narrowly egotistical; one is self-critical, the other self-righteous; one is sensible, the other romantic; one is good-humored, the other solemn; one is inquiring, the other pontificating; one is moderate, the other filled with passionate intensity; one is judicious and the other arrogant in the use of great power."

-- J. William Fulbright, The Arrogance of Power (1966)


Just some of the quotes that say what I think about patriotism far better than I can.

I would like to know what is so wrong about being proud to be a citizen of your country?

Absolutely nothing. It's what comes of that pride that matters; the actions one takes with that pride as motivation. Also, the amount one is swayed by those who attempt to manipulate people through patriotism; what they can get you to accept in its name.

I never understood the concept.
Why be proud about the accident that resulted in you being born in a random place on this planet? And why identify with people who have nothing else in common with you apart from living withing the same imaginary lines on the ground?

Patriotism is an opinion. Uninformed opinions are bad. Uninformed patriotism is bad.

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

-– George Bernard Shaw

In my case this happens to be true: Anything associated with me is, by definition, superior.

We are, first and foremost, citizens of the world.

Is Patriotism a myth?
No, don't be stupid.

I would like to know what is so wrong about being proud to be a citizen of your country?

Because...a nation doesn't exist?

Nations are just political enclosures defined by a group of people who form a government. Before the modern existence of nations, patriotism had more to do with the King, not the nation; The French revolution really removed that, but still required a standard to rally the troops behind, so the new patriotism was based around the nation, rather then it's figure head, but the nation is really nothing more then the people themselves.

It's sort of like taking pride in being proud of yourself.

Do most people in your country share your opinions on the pressing issues of the day? Is there a substantial chance you'll meet any individual member of the political community? Do you feel you share more similarities with your fellow citizens than differences? Modern political units are so diverse ideologically and culturally, as well as having divergent economic interests that the notion of a "nation" with strong ties between all citizens seems more than a little shaky. Indeed, was it ever a reality? My point here being, if "nation" is a term of dubious worth, patriotism, the sense of pride in your nation, surely must be a bit difficult to justify too.

i find "love of one's country" weird. i did nothing but be born here; had i been born 200 miles to the south, my allegiance would be different

i don't, however, feel its anything created by the powers that be to control us (sounds paranoid to me). just a vestige of tribalism inherent in our natures.


edit: i like the George Bernard Shaw quote up there

Patriotism is good in any other country besides the United States, Israel and North Korea.

It is not a myth but I don't think it is helpful - any view that my country is superior to other countries makes it easier to drop bombs on those other countries.

I never understood the concept.
Why be proud about the accident that resulted in you being born in a random place on this planet? And why identify with people who have nothing else in common with you apart from living withing the same imaginary lines on the ground?

I'd rather disagree that it's that simple. Patriotism is linked more closely to things besides ties to the recipient of our terminal loyalty. In most cases it's linked to some form of group self-identification, and pride in what members of that group have accomplished. A shared history, culture, language, religion, government and so on all contribute to people being able to identify with, and attach a portion of their identity to, their country.

Beneath that lies another key element though. The intense desire to be able to achieve immortality, if not literal, then symbolic. Attachment to the country, the nation, provides an individual with a form of symbolic immortality, that even though they may die, their works, and the effects of their works, will not. I'd strongly recommend you take a look at this book.

In the Wake of 9/11: The Psychology of Terror
By Tom Pyszczynski, Ph.D., Sheldon Solomon, Ph.D., and Jeff Greenberg, Ph.D

Despite the title and the name, the Psychology of terror is not about terrorism, rather, it is about our fear of death, and how scared we are of our own mortality. Pysczynski, Solomon and Greenberg had started working in this field well before 2001, and they explore what factors cause us to become mortality salient, what impacts how we perceive the mortality salience, and what impacts the mortality salience has.

There are parts that are exceedingly dry, and if you're not into psychology, you can often skip over many of the experimental summaries, because the purpose they provide is to backup and support what was presented at an earlier point.

But, it gives us a very good insight into why people attach themselves to the nation, or to any identity in particular.

"Patriotism is when love of country comes before all else. Nationalism is when hatred of all other countries comes before all else."
-?

I need to find the guy who said that...but it makes my point.

Coming from a family that has migrated from place to place for generations I find the idea of being proud of a geographical accident ludicrous. In my case very personal case I could have been born in Angola, but for matters of budget I was born in Mexico.

Patriotism has always been a tool of the powerful to control the people... Nation states (real life, not the game) were created mainly because of the interest of the ruling classes.

-----starting to sound like Andaras, stop now----------------------

We are, first and foremost, citizens of the world.
Speak for yourself.

Yes we are all citizens of the world....

but some of us need visas.

No, I don't think that patriotism is a myth. For that matter, I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling pride about being from a certain country.

Personal case: I was born in Oviedo, Principality of Asturias, Spain. I'm Uviense, I'm an Asturian and I'm proud of it. I think Asturias is the best province of Spain. I would die for Asturias. That's how it is. I'm also a Spaniard. Spain is my country. I love it, flawed as it may be. (I guess here Americans know what I'm referring to) I'm proud of my heritage. And there's no problem with feeling that pride.

Now, patriotism has a darker side: nationalism. That nationalism is very marked in Spain. And it's so marked to the point of provoking dissention ideas in sevral of the provinces: Euskal Herriá, Catalunya, Galicia, even Asturias. It's a feeling that has divided my country. It's the main point of debate in parliament most of the time.

I mean, it's ok to feel proud of your roots, of your country, of the region you come from, but that pride cannot or should not blind you and make you hate others.

I don't like patriotism. I still cheer when Ireland beat England at football. Work that one out.

No, I don't think that patriotism is a myth. For that matter, I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling pride about being from a certain country.

Personal case: I was born in Oviedo, Principality of Asturias, Spain. I'm Uviense, I'm an Asturian and I'm proud of it. I think Asturias is the best province of Spain. I would die for Asturias. That's how it is. I'm also a Spaniard. Spain is my country. I love it, flawed as it may be. (I guess here Americans know what I'm referring to) I'm proud of my heritage. And there's no problem with feeling that pride.

Now, patriotism has a darker side: nationalism. That nationalism is very marked in Spain. And it's so marked to the point of provoking dissention ideas in sevral of the provinces: Euskal Herriá, Catalunya, Galicia, even Asturias. It's a feeling that has divided my country. It's the main point of debate in parliament most of the time.

I mean, it's ok to feel proud of your roots, of your country, of the region you come from, but that pride cannot or should not blind you and make you hate others.
/threadwin

I don't like patriotism. I still cheer when Ireland beat England at football. Work that one out.
You might not like Ireland, but MAYBE you dislike England!:D

You might not like Ireland, but MAYBE you dislike England!:D

I doubt he'd cheer as hard if someone else beat england tho. As much as people would like to ignore or discredit patriotic feelings, they are there.

Because...a nation doesn't exist?

Nations are just political enclosures defined by a group of people who form a government. Before the modern existence of nations, patriotism had more to do with the King, not the nation; The French revolution really removed that, but still required a standard to rally the troops behind, so the new patriotism was based around the nation, rather then it's figure head, but the nation is really nothing more then the people themselves.

It's sort of like taking pride in being proud of yourself.

And yet communties exist.

So what would be wrong in being proud in yourself? Not that it is like that byt meh.

No, I don't think that patriotism is a myth. For that matter, I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling pride about being from a certain country.

Personal case: I was born in Oviedo, Principality of Asturias, Spain. I'm Uviense, I'm an Asturian and I'm proud of it. I think Asturias is the best province of Spain. I would die for Asturias. That's how it is. I'm also a Spaniard. Spain is my country. I love it, flawed as it may be. (I guess here Americans know what I'm referring to) I'm proud of my heritage. And there's no problem with feeling that pride.

Now, patriotism has a darker side: nationalism. That nationalism is very marked in Spain. And it's so marked to the point of provoking dissention ideas in sevral of the provinces: Euskal Herriá, Catalunya, Galicia, even Asturias. It's a feeling that has divided my country. It's the main point of debate in parliament most of the time.

I mean, it's ok to feel proud of your roots, of your country, of the region you come from, but that pride cannot or should not blind you and make you hate others.

I don't think anyone claimed yet that patriotism is wrong.
It's just that to many here, including me, it makes about as much sense as being proud to be the second child of your parents, and declare willingness to fight and die for all other second children in the world...
Where you are born is a complete accident, nothing you can influence willingly in any way. So why take pride in it?

I don't like patriotism. I still cheer when Ireland beat England at football. Work that one out.

Isn't that like with any other football game? You pick a side and cheer for it?
Like, my BF is from Newcastle, but supports Nottingham?

I doubt he'd cheer as hard if someone else beat england tho. As much as people would like to ignore or discredit patriotic feelings, they are there.

Knowing the Irish, they tend to cheer even louder when someone else beats the English. Solidarity, you know?

I agree with Nanatsu.

To those that don't understand patriotism: the place you live is part of your life, and people learn patriotism in the same way people learn what it means to believe in a God - they live religiously. Similarly, people live (and are brought up) patriotically. You might say: it's not an opinion based on this or that fact, but an attitude brought about by a way of life.

So the question "Why be proud of something you didn't do?" does not actually have much to do with patriotism, however much it may seem to on the surface.

Personally I like my country and am more than willing to wave flags around.

I agree with Nanatsu.

To those that don't understand patriotism: the place you live is part of your life, and people learn patriotism in the same way people learn what it means to believe in a God - they live religiously. Similarly, people live (and are brought up) patriotically. You might say: it's not an opinion based on this or that fact, but an attitude brought about by a way of life.

So the question "Why be proud of something you didn't do?" does not actually have much to do with patriotism, however much it may seem to on the surface.

Personally I like my country and am more than willing to wave flags around.

That still doesn't make any sense... I was born in one country, brought up in another, and have lived in two further countries since. So which of those places are the part of my life I should wave flags for? :confused:

But yes, comparing patriotism with religion does somewhat makes sense.
But it does make patriotism look even more dodgy to me than it did before.

That still doesn't make any sense... I was born in one country, brought up in another, and have lived in two further countries since. So which of those places are the part of my life I should wave flags for? :confused:

But yes, comparing patriotism with religion does somewhat makes sense.
But it does make patriotism look even more dodgy to me than it did before.I just think you're looking for material reasons where there aren't necessarily any. Why should someone believe in this religion and not that one? Well, they just do believe that one. It's sort of like asking why gravity has to pull us down. People don't create arguments to convince themselves to become patriotic. The fact is some people are patriotic and some people aren't.

I wouldn't call patriotism a myth. I would call it an often extremely overused and manipulated phenomenon, though, as we all already know.

It's really just an extension of our good old tribalistic instincts. That doesn't make it meaningless. The key is to not be blindly patriotic.

I, for example, consider myself patriotic in that I want what's best for my country, and that's to basically use its wealth and power responsibly, to help its citizens as much as possible as well as the rest of the world in the right ways. It's a major reason I want to go into politics, in fact, in order to right some wrongs I see being performed in the name of jingoism.

That still doesn't make any sense... I was born in one country, brought up in another, and have lived in two further countries since. So which of those places are the part of my life I should wave flags for? :confused:

Well which one do you most closely associate with? Which one do you feel the most proud to be a part of?

I was born in Australia.
I am proud that when i walk down the street, i can give a smile and a 'how are ya mate' without feeling like an idiot.
I am proud to live on the same plot of land that Hume and Hovell passed through.
I am proud that my great uncle died for this country and had a submarine named after him.
I am proud to share in the heritage of Banjo Patterson and slim dusty.
I am proud that on Melbourne cup day, i can ask anybody who their tip is or I ca ask anyone who the footy score is.

Call that an accident if you will, but I am bloody proud to be Australian.

also, "only a fool who cannot think for himself quotes others"
-Winston Churchill.

Iin some cases, I see patriotism as a step down from blind ignorance to the rest of the world. Although patriotism is a very wide spectrum, as I have 3 countries that I would support and follow depending on the circumstances, mostly in sport. These are primarily to do with birth place and heritage.

A shared history, culture, language, religion, government and so on all contribute to people being able to identify with, and attach a portion of their identity to, their country.
That's the problem. Regardless of what psychologists do to identify and categorise the self-deception people commit in order to be patriotic, it's still a flight from reality and the requirements imposed upon one's existence thereof.

I may not want to die, I may be terrified of not leaving anything that lasts behind...but if I feel that way, then I should get to work on making something that will outlast me, rather than lie to myself and establish this idiotic connection between myself and my "fellow countrymen". There is no such thing as a national achievement - the very notion is the attempt to take whatever just reward there should be for something to someone and redistribute it to many. And this goes for national crimes as well, of course. How many patriots genuinely think that all Germans should be personally ashamed and sorry for what the Nazis did 60+ years ago? I have found that they are few and far between: their usual answer is "what does that have to do with today's Germans, or you for that matter?"

The same thing must be said for any positive things that people from "my" country have done at any point in time, or indeed today. You can feel happy, but you cannot feel proud.

I just think you're looking for material reasons where there aren't necessarily any. Why should someone believe in this religion and not that one? Well, they just do believe that one. It's sort of like asking why gravity has to pull us down. People don't create arguments to convince themselves to become patriotic. The fact is some people are patriotic and some people aren't.
Likening patriotism to religion is not a valid answer. If you had no reason to be patriotic, you wouldn't have a reason be unhappy if I insulted your country. Indeed, if people just happened to be religious for no reason, they shouldn't mind if I insulted or even outlawed their religion.

But they do mind, and they do so because it gives them something. Everything has a reason, and in the case of religion and patriotism that reason is what I see as a deficiency in character that makes people seek shelter from the big, bad world behind god or the nation. Humans cannot survive by closing their eyes and praying, or singing national anthems and hoping their country will sort stuff out for them. Humans survive by approaching the world with open eyes and open minds, seeing problems that stand in their way and solving them using the tools they have at their disposal. Humans survive through personal achievement, and achievement and the continued existence it brings is the source of pride. Pride is an acknowledgement of life, and it can't be anything but that. When someone says they are proud of anything that is not their own achievement, then it's not pride that they're talking about, but the lack of it. They feel that they should be proud of something (perhaps knowing on some level that pride and life are connected and the lack of one doesn't bode well for the other), but they can't find anything. Patriotism is the fear brought about by a lack of reasons to actually be proud, and as such the lack of an actual life that one has made worth living.

Keep patriotism in the football grounds (and other competitive events) only. It has no place in politics.

I would like to know what is so wrong about being proud to be a citizen of your country?

What makes sense about being proud of an accident of birth?

Is Patriotism a myth?

No. Next question?
I don't like patriotism. I still cheer when Ireland beat England at football. Work that one out.
Knowing the Irish, they tend to cheer even louder when someone else beats the English. Solidarity, you know?
800 years, etc.
also, "only a fool who cannot think for himself quotes others"
-Winston Churchill.
'A witty saying proves nothing' - Voltaire :)
Keep patriotism in the football grounds (and other competitive events) only. It has no place in politics.
TRAITOR!

What makes sense about being proud of an accident of birth?

Nothing. But being part of a culture- particularly if it is a great culture- makes one proud to be there. It has nothing to do with where your born, just where you love and are proud of. A country is more than imaginary lines.

Nothing. But being part of a culture- particularly if it is a great culture- makes one proud to be there. It has nothing to do with where your born, just where you love and are proud of. A country is more than imaginary lines.

The country is the bit inside the imaginary lines.

Likening patriotism to religion is not a valid answer. If you had no reason to be patriotic, you wouldn't have a reason be unhappy if I insulted your country. Indeed, if people just happened to be religious for no reason, they shouldn't mind if I insulted or even outlawed their religion.You've misunderstood me. My point was that the feeling of patriotism is not a feeling gotten to by specific reasons. It's not that: the country does this, the country does that, and POOF! Instant patriot! Instead it's a learned/acquired attitude, like falling in love, becoming friends with someone, of becoming religious. So if someone asked me: "Point to the specific reason you are friends with X", I'd have to say that they simply misunderstand that very often there isn't any such specific instance to point at. Likewise, there's not necessarily any specific thing to point at as to why people are patriotic, so I said they don't have to have a reason. I did give an alternative view- that of learning to be patriotic when young, etc, which has some similarity with learning how to do the other things I mentioned, like being religious and being friends.

You idea that people can't be unhappy when you deliberately attack someone's country in an unjustified, generalized manner is, well, silly. It's like shouting in someone's face: "YOUR COUNTRY SUCKS!!" Well, I am a member of my country. If you're telling me that, are you trying to insult me? I don't know. I mean, what sort of intelligent discussion is that supposed to create? What kind of response do you expect from people when you do that? I think that such attacks are simply the responses of people too inarticulate or too stupid to be worth listening to. If, however, you said something about a specific aspect of the country then it opens the door to debate (since you'd be talking facts and not attitudes), and if your criticisms were justified a patriot would agree with you. For example, "I don't like your country because your government's members are a bunch of warmongers." - the tone of which, I'm sure you'll agree is entirely different from the previous example.

But they do mind, and they do so because it gives them something. Everything has a reason, and in the case of religion and patriotism that reason is what I see as a deficiency in character that makes people seek shelter from the big, bad world behind god or the nation. Humans cannot survive by closing their eyes and praying, or singing national anthems and hoping their country will sort stuff out for them. Humans survive by approaching the world with open eyes and open minds, seeing problems that stand in their way and solving them using the tools they have at their disposal. Humans survive through personal achievement, and achievement and the continued existence it brings is the source of pride. Pride is an acknowledgement of life, and it can't be anything but that. When someone says they are proud of anything that is not their own achievement, then it's not pride that they're talking about, but the lack of it. They feel that they should be proud of something (perhaps knowing on some level that pride and life are connected and the lack of one doesn't bode well for the other), but they can't find anything. Patriotism is the fear brought about by a lack of reasons to actually be proud, and as such the lack of an actual life that one has made worth living.Thanks for the pop psychology lesson. :D

Well which one do you most closely associate with? Which one do you feel the most proud to be a part of?

None of them... I know to what extend each one influenced me, and why.
But I can't say I identify with any of them, nor do I feel any kind of pride for having spent time there.

Nothing. But being part of a culture- particularly if it is a great culture- makes one proud to be there. It has nothing to do with where your born, just where you love and are proud of. A country is more than imaginary lines.

The funny thing is, nobody is part of a culture, really. People create culture and reject cultures at random, even inside those imaginary lines.
It's like being proud to be a feminist, or proud to be a goth, or proud to be a VW-driver.

The country is the bit inside the imaginary lines.

Community then.

None of them... I know to what extend each one influenced me, and why.
But I can't say I identify with any of them, nor do I feel any kind of pride for having spent time there.

Well then you wouldn't want to wave the flag for any of them and you wouldn't feel patriotic towards any of them, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Well then you wouldn't want to wave the flag for any of them and you wouldn't feel patriotic towards any of them, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Doesn't really answer my question... why would people feel patriotic about random lines on the map, and the space in between that they share with millions of complete strangers?

The funny thing is, nobody is part of a culture, really. People create culture and reject cultures at random, even inside those imaginary lines.
It's like being proud to be a feminist, or proud to be a goth, or proud to be a VW-driver.

I want you to explain how people create cultures and are not apart of it, culture is real and while not everyone may live in the general sense of this culture or even parts of it. Take the work culture for example it may be the culture of the work place that workers start getting ready to go 10 minutes before knock off time, now this was 'created' in the sense that it became the norm for people to do this and so is now apart of the culture not everybody may do this but if it is the norm then it is apart of the workplace culture , to say that communities don't have culture is ludicrous.

And what is so wrong to be proud of the car you drive?

Doesn't really answer my question... why would people feel patriotic about random lines on the map, and the space in between that they share with millions of complete strangers?

Have you ever heard of communities?

People would feel to be proud to be apart of this community due to any number of reasons maybe it is the history of the community and what it has achieved maybe they have similar beliefs and so you would feel proud to be apart of this.

It is like saying why should I be proud of a football team I support.

What makes sense about being proud of an accident of birth?

I am not asking if it makes sense or not I am asking what is wrong with it.

I am also asking how the place of birth is accidental? After all if I was born in France I would be a different person to the one I am now.

I want you to explain how people create cultures and are not apart of it, culture is real and while not everyone may live in the general sense of this culture or even parts of it. Take the work culture for example it may be the culture of the work place that workers start getting ready to go 10 minutes before knock off time, now this was 'created' in the sense that it became the norm for people to do this and so is now apart of the culture not everybody may do this but if it is the norm then it is apart of the workplace culture , to say that communities don't have culture is ludicrous.

And what is so wrong to be proud of the car you drive?

People are always part of more than one homogenous culture. They will follow different cultures according to heir language, their interests, their lifestyle,their education, their geographic location, their income, etc. And yes, people do create those cultures themselves. Someone started doing something different from others, others followed the example, and slowly but surely culture emerged.

You will not find a single country on the planet with only one culture. So sharing a culture with others cannot really be the reason why people are patriotic.

There's nothing wrong with liking the car that you drive. But does that make you decorate your house with VW-signs, and identify with other VW-drivers?

Have you ever heard of communities?

People would feel to be proud to be apart of this community due to any number of reasons maybe it is the history of the community and what it has achieved maybe they have similar beliefs and so you would feel proud to be apart of this.

It is like saying why should I be proud of a football team I support.

Are you proud to post on NSG, then?

I am not asking if it makes sense or not I am asking what is wrong with it.

I am also asking how the place of birth is accidental? After all if I was born in France I would be a different person to the one I am now.

If it doesn't make sense but you still do it, there's a good chance there is something wrong with it.

So you were the one who decided not to be born in France, then?

People are always part of more than one homogenous culture. They will follow different cultures according to heir language, their interests, their lifestyle,their education, their geographic location, their income, etc. And yes, people do create those cultures themselves. Someone started doing something different from others, others followed the example, and slowly but surely culture emerged.

You will not find a single country on the planet with only one culture. So sharing a culture with others cannot really be the reason why people are patriotic.

But it is part of the reason why. Because they have a similar lifestyle, similar education similar interests they are more likely to form up under a single banner and will be proud of it (even if it is because they are apart of it) and will defend it when someone attacks them because of it (Those attacks may be very slight even a derogatory remark) Yes culture emerged and was created I am not debating you with that people follow that culture and a part of it and because they do similar things they may feel proud to be apart of it.

There's nothing wrong with liking the car that you drive. But does that make you decorate your house with VW-signs, and identify with other VW-drivers?

You would be surprised at the amount of people who do this. And there are a lot of car clubs where members who own a particular car who meet up quite regualry.

If it doesn't make sense but you still do it, there's a good chance there is something wrong with it.

So you were the one who decided not to be born in France, then?

What? That doesn't make much sense, I am saying that if I was born in France I would be a different person.

You would be surprised at the amount of people who do this. And there are a lot of car clubs where members who own a particular car who meet up quite regualry.

yeah,i remember of hearing from a LADA car club.i mean,who drives a lada anymore?

Are you proud to post on NSG, then?

Would I readily admit I enjoy posting on NSG? Yes I would, would I identify myself as a Generalite? Yes I would thus I exhibit a form of patriotism towards NSG.

yeah,i remember of hearing from a LADA car club.i mean,who drives a lada anymore?

I bet they were proud of it at the time, and I know there are plenty of Ferrari Car Clubs around the world.

I bet they were proud of it at the time, and I know there are plenty of Ferrari Car Clubs around the world.

yeah but this was in 2007,IIRC.

But it is part of the reason why. Because they have a similar lifestyle, similar education similar interests they are more likely to form up under a single banner and will be proud of it (even if it is because they are apart of it) and will defend it when someone attacks them because of it (Those attacks may be very slight even a derogatory remark) Yes culture emerged and was created I am not debating you with that people follow that culture and a part of it and because they do similar things they may feel proud to be apart of it.

I haven't noticed the Society of Rabbit Breeders flocking to a banner, myself.
And similar lifestyle, education and interests are not exactly how I would describe the population of any country whatsoever.
They all have a large variety of incomes, lifestyles and interests. So why feel pride in living in the same place as people with an entirely different income, lifestyle and completely different interests?


You would be surprised at the amount of people who do this. And there are a lot of car clubs where members who own a particular car who meet up quite regualry.

Possibly. However, I don't believe that a majority of drivers (or even a significant minority) does that.

What? That doesn't make much sense, I am saying that if I was born in France I would be a different person.

Yes. And according to your logic, you'd be just as proud of that.
So where's the point?

yeah but this was in 2007,IIRC.

Well those people are more than likely to be proud to own and drive a Lada.

Yes. And according to your logic, you'd be just as proud of that.
So where's the point?

The point is that just because you are 'accidentally' born (though I was a planned child) in a community you may associate yourself with that community and because you associate yourself with that community you may be more than likely to be proud of that community.

If I moved to Canada and lived there for many many years and I associated myself as Canadian and became patriotic as a Canadian and towards Canada then I am still a Canadian patriot, because I have associated and 'agreed' with many aspects of Canada and its culture.

I haven't noticed the Society of Rabbit Breeders flocking to a banner, myself.
And similar lifestyle, education and interests are not exactly how I would describe the population of any country whatsoever.
They all have a large variety of incomes, lifestyles and interests. So why feel pride in living in the same place as people with an entirely different income, lifestyle and completely different interests?

No it would not be how you describe the population it may be apart of how you describe their culture though, it is because you feel as though they have a similar lifestyle and culture and a lot of it may be true that indeed you do, and so you would feel patriotic, I think the Olympics may also be a good example many people may feel a sense of pride because people from their country are performing well and so will also fell pride because their country was able to produce and develop these athletes.

As I said patriotism in a country is similar to feeling to be proud to be apart of a football team.

Possibly. However, I don't believe that a majority of drivers (or even a significant minority) does that.

Never said there was.

To be perfectly honest with you Cabra I am giving educated guess' on patriotism you may want to talk to a sociologist to get more comprehensive answers to the questions you have.

I don't think anyone claimed yet that patriotism is wrong.
It's just that to many here, including me, it makes about as much sense as being proud to be the second child of your parents, and declare willingness to fight and die for all other second children in the world...
Where you are born is a complete accident, nothing you can influence willingly in any way. So why take pride in it?

I know no one has so far. But I´m sure someone will claim it´s bad and evil. It´s not, or at least, I don´t think it is.

Even when the place that sees you come to life is a complete accident, it´s the place were you live or lived for the greater part of your life. It´s people, it´s customs, it´s music, it´s very soul influence who you are and the way you act to an extent. So, pride in your kith and kin grows, it´s only natural.

Its glory, its mistakes, those are things you carry with you to heart. But I don´t know what´s your personal experience, and under no circumstance will I biker at you if you don´t feel any pride in the country where you were born.

That´s not my case though. Asturias is Asturias, and it´s first in the heart for me. Spain is Spain, and it´s second in the heart for me. I will always think these places are the greatest, flaws or not. No one can take that away from me or condemn me for feeling like this. Same with you, no one can condemn you for your thoughts. As I said in another thread, I will ascribe this to personal choice.;)

The problem in the United States (and, perhaps, other nations) is that way too many people are not so much uninformed as misinformed. We live in an age of mega-information, but we also live in an era of mass manipulation of that information. When a large percentage of the nation gets it's information from cable News, the evening news and newspapers, they tend to follow the line of their preferred source and go with the herd. What I hate is sheeple! Patriots are fine, but only when they are truly informed and ready to act on that information.

Patriotism is an ideology just like religion.

Also a good reason to wage war.

Also a good reason to wage war.

Patriotism doesn't mean you are going to go to war. You can be rpoud of your country without needing to go attack someone.

Patriotism doesn't mean you are going to go to war. You can be rpoud of your country without needing to go attack someone.

True, but patriotism could be a reason to believe in a war.

True, but patriotism could be a reason to believe in a war.

If you are being attacked then yes you could use the fact that because you are united under a banner and someone attacks people for being under that banner then yes patriotism could be used to justify continued defence of the community.

A bit like when on a sports team and your team mates are attacked by an opposing team then you will come to the aid of the team mates being attacked because you are all apart of the same club.

The point is that just because you are 'accidentally' born (though I was a planned child) in a community you may associate yourself with that community and because you associate yourself with that community you may be more than likely to be proud of that community.

If I moved to Canada and lived there for many many years and I associated myself as Canadian and became patriotic as a Canadian and towards Canada then I am still a Canadian patriot, because I have associated and 'agreed' with many aspects of Canada and its culture.

So, basically, patriotism is random identification with people you assume you have exactly one thing in common. How odd.

What does it do for you? I mean, there must be a benefit of some sort for this kind of emotional association?

So, basically, patriotism is random identification with people you assume you have exactly one thing in common. How odd.

What does it do for you? I mean, there must be a benefit of some sort for this kind of emotional association?

What is odd Cabra is that you don't feel anything when you are with a group of people under the one banner, have you ever played a team sport?

Sorry that is a bit rude, and it is not exactly one thing that may be the reason why you associate yourself with a particular group and you may have a lot of things in common, as I said perhaps you should ask someone who has made a career out of studying this.

Now as you said you don't associate yourself with any group and fair enough we wouldn't expect you to feel any form of patriotism, but then because you don't feel it explains why you don't understand why people do.

I think Nanatsu explained it the best way though.

I don't believe patriotism is a myth or the doing of the state. Having pride in your nation's history and accomplishments, whether they be civil, military, technological, etc, is to me the definition of patriotism, and a perfectly natural and expected emotion.

What he said. It is not a myth it is quite natural to feel some emotion for the land of your birth, most often pride.

I will agree though that this is at best misplaced(what nation has not had it's share of atrocity?) and indeed easily manipulated by the state.

What is odd Cabra is that you don't feel anything when you are with a group of people under the one banner, have you ever played a team sport?

Sorry that is a bit rude, and it is not exactly one thing that may be the reason why you associate yourself with a particular group and you may have a lot of things in common, as I said perhaps you should ask someone who has made a career out of studying this.

Now as you said you don't associate yourself with any group and fair enough we wouldn't expect you to feel any form of patriotism, but then because you don't feel it explains why you don't understand why people do.

I think Nanatsu explained it the best way though.

I have, and still am occasionally. Winning is nice, losing isn't the end of the world either.
Playing with people and spending time with them, however, doesn't make me feel proud in any way. It's fun and a nice pasttime.

The thing about indentifying with a group, especially one as large as a nation state, means that there is little more than one thing you've got in common with everybody else. People are individuals, in everything they do and think.
How many things do you have in common with each and every Candian, do you think?
A certain number might adhere to some cultural norms, but you will not find a single country in which every citizen shares the same culture. Do you only identify with those that are in line with your understanding of the local culture, but not the rest? And if so, what would you feel towards those nationals who don't share the culture?

I'm not sure Nanatsu explained it all that well... after all, I grew up with a lot of people I'd be very happy to never ever see again. And I assume so did most people. So how would that make you proud?
As for the history, those were other people. People you didn't know, didn't influence in any way and depending how far back you go probably wouldn't even understand. Why be proud of other people? And why only of a certain group of them, depending on country limits again? Chances are that many of them lived in places that are not even part of the modern nation any more.

People are individuals, in everything they do and think.

"You're all individuals!"
"Yes! We're all individuals!"
"I am not!"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lYpuOAqD0l0

It's makebelieve.

I have, and still am occasionally. Winning is nice, losing isn't the end of the world either.
Playing with people and spending time with them, however, doesn't make me feel proud in any way. It's fun and a nice pasttime.

Don't you feel pride to be part of a club especially when it has achieved some great things over the years? If your team mate is attacked when playing the sport by the opposing team would you not rush in their to help him?

The thing about indentifying with a group, especially one as large as a nation state, means that there is little more than one thing you've got in common with everybody else. People are individuals, in everything they do and think.
How many things do you have in common with each and every Candian, do you think?
A certain number might adhere to some cultural norms, but you will not find a single country in which every citizen shares the same culture. Do you only identify with those that are in line with your understanding of the local culture, but not the rest? And if so, what would you feel towards those nationals who don't share the culture?

Of course you wouldn't associate yourself with people who are absolutely different which is my point, but you may have more than one thing in common not just a member of the the state but as I said culture is very strong within a country and many people may exhibit elements of this culture which brings these people together. Those that don't have this wouldn't be feeling patriotism because they don't associate themselves with the rest of the country. I don't feel anything towards them I may wonder why they don't have the same culture or pride the same way you feel towards them you are asking why, I don't feel resentment or hatred towards them if that is what you were wondering.

I'm not sure Nanatsu explained it all that well... after all, I grew up with a lot of people I'd be very happy to never ever see again. And I assume so did most people. So how would that make you proud?
As for the history, those were other people. People you didn't know, didn't influence in any way and depending how far back you go probably wouldn't even understand. Why be proud of other people? And why only of a certain group of them, depending on country limits again? Chances are that many of them lived in places that are not even part of the modern nation any more.

Yes but a lot of history defines what makes the country and can influence culture or maybe because of our culture it influenced the culture, it would be like saying you shouldn't be proud to be part of a sports team because they have been the most successful in the sports history.

Now if you grew up with people you didn't like you don't associate with them and you don't feel any patriotism to be apart of them, but Nanatsu and myself have thankfully not had to deal with that and so we do feel proud. You unfortunately have had to live with people whom you despise and never want to see again, thus you quite rightly don't feel any form of pride or association, but that is not true of everyone.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lYpuOAqD0l0

It's makebelieve.

Yes, yes very funny (no there were some bits that were funny other bits turned into a rant mixed with anger which is never funny I don't care what the topic is about)

Of course according to him, I shouldn't be proud of what my son has achieved.

You unfortunately have had to live with people whom you despise and never want to see again, thus you quite rightly don't feel any form of pride or association, but that is not true of everyone.

Well 'm not so sure that it is that clean cut. I am not a patriotic man. I grew up with those of my culture and I hold typical British cultural values, I don't dislike those of my country or cultutre, but still to me pride in ones country, easpecily a country like mine with a long and veried history, makes no sense at all.

I think the thing is how much though one gives it. We are all automaticaly patriotict of some elements of our location, be that the country, region, city, borough, street, houseing complex, or family. Yet when we try to pick apart why we should feel such pride, inveriably we end at a dead end.

All of us live in places that have a history of the great and the rotten. How can feel pride without also feeling shame?

Nope it's wasted energy.

You can feel proud of the good stuff and also fell shame for the bad stuff. I feel proud of accomplishments that I have achieved but there has also been actions I have done which I feel ashamed about.

You can feel proud of the good stuff and also fell shame for the bad stuff. I feel proud of accomplishments that I have achieved but there has also been actions I have done which I feel ashamed about.

Does that extend to the pride you feel for your country?

What happens if your countries history has a lot more to feel shame for than pride?

Don't you feel pride to be part of a club especially when it has achieved some great things over the years? If your team mate is attacked when playing the sport by the opposing team would you not rush in their to help him?

I enjoy playing with them, because I like the people. I don't feel any sense of pride in it, though.
And if I would help a team mate would depend on the situation of the game, wouldn't it?



Of course you wouldn't associate yourself with people who are absolutely different which is my point, but you may have more than one thing in common not just a member of the the state but as I said culture is very strong within a country and many people may exhibit elements of this culture which brings these people together. Those that don't have this wouldn't be feeling patriotism because they don't associate themselves with the rest of the country. I don't feel anything towards them I may wonder why they don't have the same culture or pride the same way you feel towards them you are asking why, I don't feel resentment or hatred towards them if that is what you were wondering.

So, you would say that a punk in say, France, has more in common with Jean-Marie LePen due to their common culture than he/she has in common with another punk in, say, Denmark?

Sorry, I'm not really buying that.

What I observe, here and elsewhere, is that people who are patriotic about a place usually are patriotic about the idea of the place they've got in their heads, rather than the actual reality of the place itself.


Yes but a lot of history defines what makes the country and can influence culture or maybe because of our culture it influenced the culture, it would be like saying you shouldn't be proud to be part of a sports team because they have been the most successful in the sports history.

Now if you grew up with people you didn't like you don't associate with them and you don't feel any patriotism to be apart of them, but Nanatsu and myself have thankfully not had to deal with that and so we do feel proud. You unfortunately have had to live with people whom you despise and never want to see again, thus you quite rightly don't feel any form of pride or association, but that is not true of everyone.

You are telling me you've never met a person you disliked in your chosen country? Not a single one? Seriously?

You are telling me you've never met a person you disliked in your chosen country? Not a single one? Seriously?

I'm sure he has met people he dislikes in his country, same as me. But that does not substract to the love/devotion/respect one has for his/her country. Horrible people will always be found everywhere. I think you're oversimplifying this a bit too much, lovey.

I can understand you feel differently than me and Blouman Empire with regards to patriotism. I respect that, you must have your reasons, and I don't need to know them. The difference between us is that your experience is not the same as mine.

No matter what is discussed here, I will always love my province and my country.

Blouman Empire
Yes, yes very funny (no there were some bits that were funny other bits turned into a rant mixed with anger which is never funny I don't care what the topic is about)

Of course according to him, I shouldn't be proud of what my son has achieved.

No, according to him, you shouldn't be proud of what your son has achieved, if you had nothing to do with it. For example you have never even met your son and he acheves something great, then yes you shouldn't be proud of it. Of course you could be happy for him.

No, according to him, you shouldn't be proud of what your son has achieved, if you had nothing to do with it.

That is what I said. But if I want to feel proud of my son because of what he has achieved and feel happy for him I will, I will not change my feelings because some old fool thinks I shouldn't have them.


Cabra, I know we feel differently about communities we are apart of whether it is our country, sporting clubs, workplace etc. I will feel a sense of pride to be apart of something which has achieved good things, has treated me well etc, What also goes with patriotism is not just a sense of pride but more a sense of loyalty as well. You may enjoy playing with a group of people as a team yet don't feel any sense of loyalty to the team or any pride as part of that team, and that is fair enough, though I will say I am glad you are not on any of my teams. We both disagree on this issue you have reasons for not feeling any pride or loyalty or association with any communities and you have reasons for it, I do feel loyalty and pride and association for many communities that I am apart of, and I think we should stop flogging this dead horse and agree to disagree.

Patriotic people are more likely to do things for the good of the state and for the good of the people. If you are un-patriotic and you feel no connection with your fellow countrymen would you abandon them? In times of war would you swap sides if you thought they were going to win and you lose?

Personally, I will always be loyal to Queen and Country. Not so much Westminster though

Patriotic people are more likely to do things for the good of the state and for the good of the people. If you are un-patriotic and you feel no connection with your fellow countrymen would you abandon them? In times of war would you swap sides if you thought they were going to win and you lose?

Personally, I will always be loyal to Queen and Country. Not so much Westminster though

I think that last bit here is a very odd stance to take. Loyal to Queen and country but not to the Queen's goverment that runs the country?

If you are disloyal to the Queen's goverment, then surly that means you are disloyal to the Queen?

Why does unpatriotic have to equal not caring about your fellow man?

Mind you using your own logic then I guess I can get away with declaring that if you are patriotic then there is a better chance of being able to blindly lead you into doing things that otherwise you may find moraly questionable.

All for the good of the country of course!:tongue:

Patriotic people are more likely to do things for the good of the state and for the good of the people. If you are un-patriotic and you feel no connection with your fellow countrymen would you abandon them? In times of war would you swap sides if you thought they were going to win and you lose?

Personally, I will always be loyal to Queen and Country. Not so much Westminster though

Haven't a large number of the people who have gone down in history as traitors actually been self-described patriots who thought they were doing the best thing for their country? I am thinking of people like Kim Philby, Benedict Arnold etc..

Haven't a large number of the people who have gone down in history as traitors actually been self-described patriots who thought they were doing the best thing for their country? I am thinking of people like Kim Philby, Benedict Arnold etc..

George Washington, Lord Nelson, General Monash

I suppose it depends on which side you are on, the winning side or the losing side, after all Benedict Arnold was patriotic just not to America.

Patriotism is when you love your country more than your mistress.

Patriotism is when you love your country more than your mistress.

Or the country is your mistress?