NationStates Jolt Archive

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Yay!

*damn, there's no popcorn smilie*

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

This is known as "answering your own question".

Shut up.

Never actually spoken to an atheist have you?

Ah...they don't? That's a serious generalization.

Shut up.

Another t shirt avatar. Sweet.

*thumbs up*

Dammit. I get tired of Fundamentalist Christians so much sometimes.

And I'm a Christian.

Oh wait, and I have several atheist friends. And agnostics.

Atheists, like many people, I believe, don't hate Christians or "relgious people". They hate Christian douchebags and religious douchebags.

I do too.

Well, to defend the atheists, there are some of us who have not been the most intelligent about expressing our views.

*looks up at the OP*

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Telling atheists to go to church is not going to make them hate us religious folks less. As it is, your post annoys me as well. But then, overtly "Jebus Christ is my lord and savior! Hallelujah!" tends to annoy me. My friends who are atheists get along with me fine.

Dammit. I get tired of Fundamentalist Christians so much sometimes.

And I'm a Christian.

Oh wait, and I have several atheist friends. And agnostics.

Atheists, like many people, I believe, don't hate Christians or "relgious people". They hate Christian douchebags and religious douchebags.

I do too.

This.

I call a troll, it remains to see if the OP is a successful troll or not.

Anyway, not all atheists hate Religious folk, some do some don't, the same way that not all religious people hate atheist folk some do some don’t.

I think what should be said is that some atheists hate the beliefs of religious folk (which is what I have seen by some people on this forum) while some religious folk hate the ideas of atheists.

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Hmm...so you tell an entire group of people what they would all "automatically think"?

You might want to check line of sight contraints on your own nose...

Ok, athiest just want a group to belong to but they don't want to take there own intiative or don't want to place all their chips in one religion because it might be wrong. Most athiest I meet just say "Well, how can we know that one religion is right? There are so many". Well, there you go.
PS- I'm Roman Catholic

Yep I hate you. Happy now?

This is known as "answering your own question".

Isn't the idea to keep asking questions?

Ok, athiest just want a group to belong to but they don't want to take there own intiative or don't want to place all their chips in one religion because it might be wrong. Second stupidest post in this thread.

Isn't the idea to keep asking questions?

Ooh, aren't you the clever boy?

:D

Ok, athiest just want a group to belong to but they don't want to take there own intiative or don't want to place all their chips in one religion because it might be wrong. Most athiest I meet just say "Well, how can we know that one religion is right? There are so many". Well, there you go.
PS- I'm Roman Catholic

So, avoiding an instrinsicly dogmatic construct and developing one's own secular system of ethics is not wanting to take our own initiative?

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.
It's because we're all bitter, twisted souls as a result of our hedonistic, godless ways. We fight within ourselves, trying to convince ourselves that logic and reason are all a person needs and that faith cannot satisfy us, yet we know this is not true. We must replace the warmth of a god's love with the evil heat of furious, bile-spitting hatred towards those who appear content. It's a defence mechanism, designed to make us feel better that we shall spend an eternity away from a deity's benevolence after death. We hate you, Isla Techno, because you are better than us and we know it.

Or, alternately, the majority of Atheists aren't actually like this at all. Those who do feel the need to be overtly spiteful and horrible to theists tend to be those who have suffered themselves at the hands of zealots, or just idiot reactionaries who think that because they 'know' they are correct, it gives them the privilege of preaching. Of course, there's the ever-present lulz option, which is just too tempting to resist sometimes.

Second stupidest post in this thread.

I concur, what the hell is he on about?
PS-I'm a Roman Catholic;)

I don't hate religious people. I love them.

Sometimes, for hours on end.

Atheists hate religious people because their parents spanked them the wrong way when they were children.

Yes, I am competing for Neesika's much-cherished "stupidest post on this thread" award.

Ooh, aren't you the clever boy?

:D

Who told you I was a boy?

Atheists hate religious people because it's so hard to compete with God in dick size.

Im a bosnian muslim and I dont hate anyone and religion causes WAR, so it an be good and bad

Atheists hate religious people because their parents spanked them the wrong way when they were children.

Yes, I am competing for Neesika's much-cherished "stupidest post on this thread" award.

I'm your competition. ;)

Who told you I was a boy?

Wasn't that you?

Atheists hate religious people because it's so hard to compete with God in dick size.

Because God has a big dick?

Or because he is a big dick?

I'm your competition. ;)

Drat. Well, maybe if I concede with dignity the pain of losing won't hurt so much.

I would pull out if Lunatic Goofballs was your competition :O

lol seriously

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

I don't hate religious people if they don't hate on me first. I've thought about it, and I really don't believe at all. My reason is that I don't believe a perfect God would demand people worship him to get to heaven. Do good deeds, yes. Worship him? Seems egotistical. I also have major issues with teaching on homosexuality. It seems very arbitary of an all-loving God to target a group who are doing no harm to others. As a transgender person I've also occasionally found people that argue that I'm a perversion, going against God's plan, an argument I find truly laughable. God's plan was for me to be trapped in a body I hate, and He forbids me to alter it? Bit harsh, innit?

I have no problem if someone else holds different beliefs. I respect their right to do this. I don't try to force my non-belief on religious friends, and am fine discussing the ideas rationally with religious friends. What I'm not fine with is people trying to force their ideas on me, and the significant number who use religion as little more than an excuse for hate speech. I have tried going to church several times, indeed we were forced to at school. It just leaves me totally cold and, indeed, bored. I agree that there are some atheists who are equally bad as the fundamentalist religious, refusing to engage in argument and instead engaging in childish insults against the religious. But moderates on both sides are really equally ok, so you can't tar everyone with the same brush. In everything, the extremists are always the assholes.

Wasn't that you?

Why would I have?

im waiting for my 500mb bf2 patch to DL so im bored

Why do Atheists hate religious people?
Not all atheists hate theists, just as not all Christians hate Muslims and vice versa.
At the same time, there are atheists who hate theists, just as there are Christians who hate Muslims and vice versa.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that these people - whom I believe to be the minority among their group - cannot stand seeing other people having different believes, different views from what they have - no matter whether they are atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews...

I don't hate religious people if they don't hate on me first. I've thought about it, and I really don't believe at all. My reason is that I don't believe a perfect God would demand people worship him to get to heaven. Do good deeds, yes. Worship him? Seems egotistical. I also have major issues with teaching on homosexuality. It seems very arbitary of an all-loving God to target a group who are doing no harm to others. As a transgender person I've also occasionally found people that argue that I'm a perversion, going against God's plan, an argument I find truly laughable. God's plan was for me to be trapped in a body I hate, and He forbids me to alter it? Bit harsh, innit?

I have no problem if someone else holds different beliefs. I respect their right to do this. I don't try to force my non-belief on religious friends, and am fine discussing the ideas rationally with religious friends. What I'm not fine with is people trying to force their ideas on me, and the significant number who use religion as little more than an excuse for hate speech. I have tried going to church several times, indeed we were forced to at school. It just leaves me totally cold and, indeed, bored. I agree that there are some atheists who are equally bad as the fundamentalist religious, refusing to engage in argument and instead engaging in childish insults against the religious. But moderates on both sides are really equally ok, so you can't tar everyone with the same brush. In everything, the extremists are always the assholes.

lolo good point

It's true: I believe any reasonably intelligent and affable person I meet must be an atheist. I try to stop my prejudice, but I can't help it. It's just that traditionally atheists have trouble understanding the values of people who have beliefs different from their own. We're always trying to force our ideas on others-- making children denounce God in school, printing "There is no Supreme Being" on our money, displaying passages from Richard Dawkins in courtrooms... is there no end to our tyranny?

I don't hate religious people if they don't hate on me first. I've thought about it, and I really don't believe at all. My reason is that I don't believe a perfect God would demand people worship him to get to heaven. Do good deeds, yes. Worship him? Seems egotistical. I also have major issues with teaching on homosexuality. It seems very arbitary of an all-loving God to target a group who are doing no harm to others. As a transgender person I've also occasionally found people that argue that I'm a perversion, going against God's plan, an argument I find truly laughable. God's plan was for me to be trapped in a body I hate, and He forbids me to alter it? Bit harsh, innit?

I have no problem if someone else holds different beliefs. I respect their right to do this. I don't try to force my non-belief on religious friends, and am fine discussing the ideas rationally with religious friends. What I'm not fine with is people trying to force their ideas on me, and the significant number who use religion as little more than an excuse for hate speech. I have tried going to church several times, indeed we were forced to at school. It just leaves me totally cold and, indeed, bored. I agree that there are some atheists who are equally bad as the fundamentalist religious, refusing to engage in argument and instead engaging in childish insults against the religious. But moderates on both sides are really equally ok, so you can't tar everyone with the same brush. In everything, the extremists are always the assholes.

I believe in god, but not the Christian one, as that one just doesn't make sense to me. Omnipotent and omniscient, and also benevolent, yet at the same time, homophobic and perfectly willing to let all this badness exist and damn people to hell for all eternity just for not worshiping him.

I reject the notion of god being omnipotent, and embrace the notion of god being benevolent. Virtue is more worthy of praise than power, to me. Of course, I also reject the idea that god is homophobic, as it seems silly for a morally perfect being to hate someone because of who they love. Hell also I think is an odd idea. Thankfully, being a pagan, I don't believe it exists.

Because God has a big dick?

Or because he is a big dick?

I suppose that depends who you ask and/or whose version of God. See, even though people claim to worship a One True God, and even though they claim that their God is the same God as your God despite the fact that their God is a dick and your God is an asshole, I am not willing to accept that we all worship the same God.

Or if that's too confusing, God is like the Joker. Comparing the Catholic God with the Jewish God with the Goofballian God is like comparing Heath Ledger's Joker to Jack Nicholson's Joker to Cesar Romero's Joker. Just because they have the same source and inspiration doesn't make them the same character.

Just be careful which God you call a dick, because some of them will kick your ass!

talking bout religion makes me sick :O next question pl0x

Drat. Well, maybe if I concede with dignity the pain of losing won't hurt so much.

That's what she said! ;)

So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Do you honestly think that most atheists have never been to a religious service?

im not an atheist, but i dont believe that god takes an active role in our life, but i belong to a church and i dont hate hardcore religous people, its only anoying when they try to impose their views on you!

I suppose that depends who you ask and/or whose version of God. See, even though people claim to worship a One True God, and even though they claim that their God is the same God as your God despite the fact that their God is a dick and your God is an asshole, I am not willing to accept that we all worship the same God.

Or if that's too confusing, God is like the Joker. Comparing the Catholic God with the Jewish God with the Goofballian God is like comparing Heath Ledger's Joker to Jack Nicholson's Joker to Cesar Romero's Joker. Just because they have the same source and inspiration doesn't make them the same character.

Just be careful which God you call a dick, because some of them will kick your ass!

Serious 'Team America' flashbacks.

Why would I have?

Didn't you already ask that?

That's what she said! ;)

LOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO!!!!!1111one11!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!

Why do so many religious people hate atheists?

According to poll data, we're the least trusted minority... and a substantial number of people seem to think we deserve to be tortured for eternity by a just and loving deity.

Didn't you already ask that?

Was it in this thread?

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lolo is it REALLY THAT IMPORTANT??????????????????????!???!?!?!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????

Why do Atheists hate religious people?

because its sexy.

If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man

and open minded? :wink:

printing "There is no Supreme Being" on our money

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9260/greatbritainxe4.jpg

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I am an atheist as well as a stalwart capitalist and I completely agree, it is a stereotype spread by right wing nut jobs like the creator of this thread that all those who don't believe in god are elitist commys(democrats).

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You're drunk? (more than me, at least?)

Was it in this thread?

:eek:

Weren't you paying attention, either?

Atheists don't believe in God because they have Jewish blood.

This was confirmed in a peer-reviewed, double-blind genetic study conducted at Miskatonic University wherein a PhD in biochemistry (Heinrich Abromowicz), an MD geneticist (Dr. Adolf Goldstein), and a herpetologist (Professor Lizardo Schlomo Mengelburg) wherein it was established incontrivertably that all atheists have at least 1/64th Jewish ancestry, usually Sephardic.

God simply does not reveal himself to Jews.

You're drunk? (more than me, at least?)

THAT, and im waiting for the bf2 download patch :O (which is five hundred fucking MB)

it is a stereotype... that all those who don't believe in god are elitist commys(democrats).

Do you suggest that if atheists actually all were Democrats, it would be acceptable to hate us?

God simply does not reveal himself to Jews.

Actually... one time, at band camp...

Actually... one time, at band camp...

go on...

God simply does not reveal himself to Jews.

Al Franken?

I believe in god, but not the Christian one, as that one just doesn't make sense to me. Omnipotent and omniscient, and also benevolent, yet at the same time, homophobic and perfectly willing to let all this badness exist and damn people to hell for all eternity just for not worshiping him.

I reject the notion of god being omnipotent, and embrace the notion of god being benevolent. Virtue is more worthy of praise than power, to me. Of course, I also reject the idea that god is homophobic, as it seems silly for a morally perfect being to hate someone because of who they love. Hell also I think is an odd idea. Thankfully, being a pagan, I don't believe it exists.

This makes a lot of sense to me and is kinda where I'm at with it. Having grown up surrounded by traditions where God is regarded as omnipotent though, its sorta hard to shake the idea that if a god is not omnipotent, they aren't a god. I need to do some more reading on paganism, because other religions do nowt at all for me.

God simply does not reveal himself to Jews.

LOL! Only if they're actually learned.

the reason any of us hate religion is because of the fact of what it does to people? it does good? BULL. The tiny bit of good it does do can easily be outdone by the horrible atrocities they commit. almost evrey religion also includes its very own fascism ( blaming people, damning people, etc for natural things )

Religion is fruitless and in the end will always do more bad then good provided that people have the ability to think. So do some research and see how good religion is massively outweighed by bad religion. also look and see how no religion has more goods then bads when implemented in the right way, at the right time.

Actually... one time, at band camp...

If a counselor covers himself in a robe of terrycloth holiness from which emerges his rod and staff of holiness...

might not be God.

Or Might be.

:eek:

Weren't you paying attention, either?

I pay attention?

Actually... one time, at band camp...

Statement...?

LOL! Only if they're actually learned.

Nuh uh.

If you go to an orthodox yeshiva, on the last day of classes, right after everybody signs year books and sees their final grades, they say "Just Kidding."

If a counselor covers himself in a robe of terrycloth holiness from which emerges his rod and staff of holiness...

might not be God.

Or Might be.

If you have such doubts, you evidently have not yet been touched by his noodly appendage.

Al Franken?

Al Franken, as a Jew, will seduce God's chosen angel, Ann Coulter, and father the anti-christ.

Which will be worth it, just to get that woman to put on some fucking weight.

Nuh uh.

If you go to an orthodox yeshiva, on the last day of classes, right after everybody signs year books and sees their final grades, they say "Just Kidding."

You, too, have evidently not yet been touched by his noodly appendage.

If you have such doubts, you evidently have not yet been touched by his noodly appendage.

Well, I guess penetration is a subset of touch...

Low, the glory of his mighty meatballs...

I am an atheist as well as a stalwart capitalist and I completely agree, it is a stereotype spread by right wing nut jobs like the creator of this thread that all those who don't believe in god are elitist commys(democrats).


Thats another stereo type, Because of communism// socialism we seek to increase our intellect and upon doing so find no use for gods or religion in this world. They just get in the way of our goal.

Nice to meet you Stalwart Capitalist, I'm Marxist-Leninist

This makes a lot of sense to me and is kinda where I'm at with it. Having grown up surrounded by traditions where God is regarded as omnipotent though, its sorta hard to shake the idea that if a god is not omnipotent, they aren't a god. I need to do some more reading on paganism, because other religions do nowt at all for me.

I don't think god is weak, just not all powerful in the physical world. But like I said, I think virtue is more worthy of my admiration than power.

Also, since in my mind god can't be both omnipotent and benevolent, a benevolent god with limited power is much nicer to think about than an all powerful god who isn't all that benevolent.

Ive been to church...lots of times, I was raised Christian...

Doesnt make me like, or believe in Religion...

But, there's hate on both sides...Fundamentalists think Atheists are Satan...and Atheists think Fundamentalists are Barbarians...

Inevitably people line up behind their favorite team to bash the other...and the exceptions are thrown to the side lines...

Its Human Nature, especially in an Anonymous forum with no Consequences...

Its Human Nature, especially in an Anonymous forum with no Consequences...

One time Katgan sent a castrated horse to kick me in the nuts.

Statement...?
Reference "American Pie".

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lolo is it REALLY THAT IMPORTANT??????????????????????!???!?!?!???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????
I'm sorry, do you have something pertinent to contribute, or are you just going to keep asking why people are talking about this?

One time Katgan sent a castrated horse to kick me in the nuts.
Yeah, but he was busy... and Lunatic Goofballs pulled the kick...

Now, I'm a religious person -- and I certainly don't hate atheists, or pagans, or Jews, or Muslims, or Buddhists, or pretty much any other group I can think of...

Individuals pains in my ass, yes. Whole groups, no.

Why do so many religious people hate atheists?

According to poll data, we're the least trusted minority... and a substantial number of people seem to think we deserve to be tortured for eternity by a just and loving deity.

Lack of trust does not equal hate. I wouldn't trust some people as far as I could throw them, doesn't mean I hate them.

Reference "American Pie".

Reference "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead."

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

You make a lot of baseless assumptions, don't you.

I can make assumptions, too.

I assume from your post that you value opinions over facts.
I assume from your post that you only think you're intelligent and well-educated.
I assume from your post that you refuse to look at all the bad things for which religion is responsible.
I assume from your post that logic is not your strong suit.
I assume from your post that you generally lead with your emotions.
I assume from your post that you think most of us care.

No. But, they could if we all disregarded the issues and summed up our politics with one word(change).

I don't hate religious people, I just want them to leave me alone. Is that too much to ask?

Reference "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead."

Statement.

3-1. Game.

Your serve?

yes it would

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Why? Because religious people seem to think they are completely right and others are wrong, even those who believe in another religion. Athiests do though I suppose which is why these debates go on and we are not all religious or all athiests.
But your making assumptions here. I can tell you now if i met you in real life I would not assume you were an athiest if I found you to be intelligent and educated. I couldn't care your religion so long as you dont try to convert me. And in an ironic twist to the tale, all, yes ALL, of my close friends are actually christians. They believe 100% in jesus and god and their faith and go to chuch and bible study... while I am the biggest athiest you will ever find. Yet I have been to church, many a times I go with them to chuch because we are going to go see a movie or go out somewhere after churc during the night.
And I still hate religion.

So to answer the question now we know a few facts, basically its because we a humans, and humans are pathetic. When we think we know something we cling to it and refuse anyone suggestions to the contrary. Athiest probably hate religion more than religious people dislike athiests though because its more common to have a religious person try and tell you about 'the lord'. At least thats was does it for me (plus i find it distubing about how much time, money and well everything you devote to something I see as non-existant).

Statement.

3-1. Game.

Your serve?

Foul: Stupidity and ignorance from Eponialand. 2-1.

Is that not fair, considering your earlier statement here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13897518&postcount=58)?

I don't hate religious people, I just want them to leave me alone. Is that too much to ask?

Basically confiming what I said above. But seeing as most religions, especially christianity, follow two main rules, live like god and spread his word, the very fundamental core of religion is making people dislike it. Not to mention this same principle of spreading the word has caused more chaos and death than any collection of crack-pot genocidal dictators.

Foul: Stupidity and ignorance from Eponialand. 2-1.

Is that not fair?

That was a bit of a cheat, wasn't it?

:tongue:

That was a bit of a cheat, wasn't it?

:tongue:

Like your statement (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13897518&postcount=58)?]

Like your statement (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13897518&postcount=58)?]

:eek:

You were reading my posts to other people?

Why do so many religious people hate atheists?

According to poll data, we're the least trusted minority... and a substantial number of people seem to think we deserve to be tortured for eternity by a just and loving deity.

Religious people hate atheists because atheists hate religious people because religious people hate atheists because atheists hate religious people because religious people hate atheists because atheists hate religious people because religious people hate atheists because atheists hate religious people because...ad infinitum. It's a cycle which possess a certain elegance to the very, very sick.

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

it's not that i hate religious people. i simply hate how most of them think only they are correct and there can't possibly be anything else but what they belive. christians, jews, muslims, all of them. and people get killed over it! almost every religion is guilty! the inquisition, the crusades, modern terrorism, etc. These things even go against the very things they preach to be truth! people should belive what they want to, i have nothing against that, but the arrogance of some of these people astounds me!

:eek:

You were reading my posts to other people?

You mean like you were (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13897677&postcount=81)?

I despise a great number of religious people because they're obnoxious. If they can be religious without being obnoxious, I don't hate them. But living in the Bible belt, I find a lot of creepy, crazy wackos. I don't like them.

Why do I hate illegal street merchants?

I don't need another pair of sunglasses dammit!

I assume from your post that you think most of us care.

Judging by the heavy response to this thread, I would say you guys do.

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings?

We don't hate theists, or theism for that matter, we're just scared of the tremendous power religions wield over their following. If you need an example of the horrors people commit in the name of religion, check out the Spanish Inquisition, or, for a more recent example, Paul Hill.

Judging by the heavy response to this thread, I would say you guys do.

Bad analysis. A thread about wakeboarding squirrels would generate at least 10 pages in the same time.

Bad analysis. A thread about wakeboarding squirrels would generate at least 10 pages in the same time.

WHAT!? WAKEBOARDING SQUIRRLES!!!!!!!21!!11!1!1!

WHERE!? :eek2:

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

That's an aweful lot of things you're assuming about a group you evidently know very little if anything of. I'd wager based on your little self-righteous diatribe here you've had little if any contact with a real atheist. If you had, you'd realise what's inherently wrong with your generalisations.

Firstly, most atheists couldn't give a damn what your religion is; we tend to assume you're either agnostic or something else. There's no point in assuming anything. Or at least this is true of the people I know.

It's not that we hate religious people, it's more along the lines of Atheist give a hate it when the religious go into self-righteous; moral-superiority mode and start preaching. As if being religious gives one the right to tell me that I'm living my life wrong.

Religion may have good intentions but the people who preach are often the first to break the rules and try and avoid looking bad when they're call out on their blinding hypocrisy. It's this kind of bullshit that makes religion look unappealing and why Atheists are likely to distrust a religious person who comes preaching; to "try and save my soul" because preaching comes in only one flavour - self-righteous tripe.

Oh and I've been to church. I can't hate it because I was so bored that I failed to stay awake to hear about how I'm such a bloody fucking sinner who's hellbound and how there is no way God will save my fucking worthless soul because I'm a goddamn godless heretic who will burn in the eternal fires of... blah blah blah....

Hm.... I've read this thread and just have to say...










ALL Y'ALL MAKE ME SICK

I'm an "Athiest" You might say, but I don't realy hate religion. I just think it's stupid. Apearently there's a god who made everything, according to Christians and the like. But one question that ALMOST ALL the Christians I've talked choked up on, was the question "What Made God?" Most eventualy reply, that he made Himself. But that's impossible. How can one be SO SURE of themselves, as to say that the facts are fake. They Beleive that God created everything and everyone in 7 days, but the facts point to EVOLUTION. Now, I don't beleive in the whole Big-Bang theory Either, that Nothing exploded and Created things that evolved into things. All-in-all, Religion is Stupid, Atheism is stupid. Just get over it, isn't there something y'all nuts can do besides from Yell at eachother? For Example, helping to solve the Oil Crisis.

Takes 100th post, contributes nothing.

That's an aweful lot of things you're assuming about a group you evidently know very little if anything of. I'd wager based on your little self-righteous diatribe here you've had little if any contact with a real atheist. If you had, you'd realise what's inherently wrong with your generalisations.

Firstly, most atheists couldn't give a damn what your religion is; we tend to assume you're either agnostic or something else. There's no point in assuming anything. Or at least this is true of the people I know.

It's not that we hate religious people, it's more along the lines of Atheist give a hate it when the religious go into self-righteous; moral-superiority mode and start preaching. As if being religious gives one the right to tell me that I'm living my life wrong.

Religion may have good intentions but the people who preach are often the first to break the rules and try and avoid looking bad when they're call out on their blinding hypocrisy. It's this kind of bullshit that makes religion look unappealing and why Atheists are likely to distrust a religious person who comes preaching; to "try and save my soul" because preaching comes in only one flavour - self-righteous tripe.

Can you really speak for all Atheists?

Oh and I've been to church. I can't hate it because I was so bored that I failed to stay awake to hear about how I'm such a bloody fucking sinner who's hellbound and how there is no way God will save my fucking worthless soul because I'm a goddamn godless heretic who will burn in the eternal fires of... blah blah blah....

Now who is making broad assumptions about mass services, I have been to plenty and not once been told how I am hellbound etc.

That is not to say some of your other stuff above had didn't have some merit.

i don't hate religious people, i hate religion. it makes u stupid as it forces u to believe in backwards dogma and we really shouldn't tolerate such nonsense in this modern age.

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? /snip So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Speaking as an agnostic with atheistic tendencies, I don't hate religious people, or religion as such. I've also been to church more than a few times, and I've seen some of the good (as well as the ill) that can come from organized religion. I believe Jesus was an important historical prophet, similar to Buddha, Mohammed, Moses and others, but I do not believe he was divine, and I do not believe he can save my soul any more than any other person could. I also don't believe the God of the world's holy books exists, let alone can save or condemn me.
In short, I do not have faith.
Think whatever you like about that -- that I am being misled by Satan, that I just haven't found faith yet but I will, whatever -- but I've come to that position after much thought and reflection, and I don't think I'll be changing it anytime soon.
What I do believe, because I've seen it time and again, is that people who rely on faith to make arguments or defend positions that are only defensible within a narrow set of scriptural guidelines are unwilling to consider that any position that doesn't fit within that set of guidelines is automatically wrong and potentially evil. To someone who doesn't believe that set of guidelines to be infallible, many of the scripturally based moral arguments put forth make about as much sense as superstition, like walking under a ladder gives you bad luck. The logic is flawed. I don't believe that people who make faith-based or scripture-based arguments are stupid; I believe they're misguided and irrational, just as I'm sure they believe I'm misguided for not adhering to (their) religious belief.
If that comes out as frustration from time to time, it's because atheists get tired of banging their head against the faith brick wall. We don't have it, it doesn't make sense to us; you do, and you use it as the answer. It's not our answer, and that's frustrating. It's a frustration that can lead to name-calling, and "stupid" is more quickly arrived at than "irrational."

Hm.... I've read this thread and just have to say...










ALL Y'ALL MAKE ME SICK

I'm an "Athiest" You might say, but I don't realy hate religion. I just think it's stupid. Apearently there's a god who made everything, according to Christians and the like. But one question that ALMOST ALL the Christians I've talked choked up on, was the question "What Made God?" Most eventualy reply, that he made Himself. But that's impossible. How can one be SO SURE of themselves, as to say that the facts are fake. They Beleive that God created everything and everyone in 7 days, but the facts point to EVOLUTION. Now, I don't beleive in the whole Big-Bang theory Either, that Nothing exploded and Created things that evolved into things. All-in-all, Religion is Stupid, Atheism is stupid. Just get over it, isn't there something y'all nuts can do besides from Yell at eachother? For Example, helping to solve the Oil Crisis.

Shhsshhhhhh! There's no reason to shout, we hear you. Now, indulge us and let us have our little discussion.

Shhsshhhhhh! There's no reason to shout, we hear you. Now, indulge us and let us have our little discussion.

i think i'll go with a previous post i saw:

"Religion is stupid!"
"No it isn't!"
"Yes it is!"
"No, its all true!"


there, that pretty much summarizes our discussion :)

Speaking as an agnostic with atheistic tendencies, I don't hate religious people, or religion as such. I've also been to church more than a few times, and I've seen some of the good (as well as the ill) that can come from organized religion. I believe Jesus was an important historical prophet, similar to Buddha, Mohammed, Moses and others, but I do not believe he was divine, and I do not believe he can save my soul any more than any other person could. I also don't believe the God of the world's holy books exists, let alone can save or condemn me.
In short, I do not have faith.
Think whatever you like about that -- that I am being misled by Satan, that I just haven't found faith yet but I will, whatever -- but I've come to that position after much thought and reflection, and I don't think I'll be changing it anytime soon.
What I do believe, because I've seen it time and again, is that people who rely on faith to make arguments or defend positions that are only defensible within a narrow set of scriptural guidelines are unwilling to consider that any position that doesn't fit within that set of guidelines is automatically wrong and potentially evil. To someone who doesn't believe that set of guidelines to be infallible, many of the scripturally based moral arguments put forth make about as much sense as superstition, like walking under a ladder gives you bad luck. The logic is flawed. I don't believe that people who make faith-based or scripture-based arguments are stupid; I believe they're misguided and irrational, just as I'm sure they believe I'm misguided for not adhering to (their) religious belief.
If that comes out as frustration from time to time, it's because atheists get tired of banging their head against the faith brick wall. We don't have it, it doesn't make sense to us; you do, and you use it as the answer. It's not our answer, and that's frustrating. It's a frustration that can lead to name-calling, and "stupid" is more quickly arrived at than "irrational."
Welcome to NS. I hope your sensibilities aren't irrevocably assaulted here, especially by the likes of m'self. :)

Welcome to NS. I hope your sensibilities aren't irrevocably assaulted here, especially by the likes of m'self. :)

Now why would a sensible person like yourself hope that?

Hmmm... I know I should stay away from such threads like plague but I can't silence my inner jackass so here goes;

I am an atheist. Since people around here are mostly religious types and thus inclined to assume everyone is a believer I tend to voice that I am so very often. I have strong prejudices too - I automatically assume any woman with a headscarf is a religious bigot but I usually restrain and correct myself before much harm is done.

Now, I am known to speak on behalf of and protect the religious people from atheist bigots so I can't agree with the OP.

On another but a tangential note though, I really cannot understand why a person who has any understanding of life have the need to believe in a supreme being. However, I should say that this is purely a personal view and although I'm pretty sure my prejudices all stem from this I try not to hurt people by belittling their religious views.

The thing is, there are bigots and jackasses everywhere - some of them are religious people some of them are atheists. When people have opposing or incompatible beliefs or views (atheism is not a belief, it is the absence of one) they tend to attribute the actions of few to all - that's the whole issue.

I remember myself thinking "sheesh, why can't these people open their eyes and see for once?" more than once actually - this is an impulsive take though; religion is necessary for some people because it makes their life easier and make them more positive and understanding individuals who has the ability to enjoy a productive, full and fruitful life.

Just my spare change.

Cheerio!

Faith is such a strange thing. Basically, it's strongly, even fervently, held position based on other opinions, wishful thinking and the "voice of authority."

Logic can support it if you use the correct starting premise, as in "postulated, the existence of God."

Logic can also argue against it, again given the appropriate starting premise, as in "postulated, the non-existence of God."

The only things that don't support either premise are facts. They just sit there. Without facts, I can't believe.

The only things that don't support either premise are facts. They just sit there. Without facts, I can't believe.

Please ASD can you tell me who the best film actor is throughout film history.

Do you have facts to support this belief?

If not the how can you believe that this person is the best actor ever.

I know there may be some flaws in that but please amuse me. I need cheering up.

Please ASD can you tell me who the best film actor is throughout film history.

Do you have facts to support this belief?

If not the how can you believe that this person is the best actor ever.

I know there may be some flaws in that but please amuse me. I need cheering up.

In my humble opinion, I can't say. There are so many good actors. Many have done brilliant work. And many of these same actors have done abyssmal work. I know of several I like, they may not be the best. I know of several I don't like at all, they may be quite excellent.

It is no more true to say all atheists hate religious people than to say all priests are pedophiles, or other such generalizations about religious people.

Maybe atheists don't all hate religion. Maybe its just you.

In my humble opinion, I can't say. There are so many good actors. Many have done brilliant work. And many of these same actors have done abyssmal work. I know of several I like, they may not be the best. I know of several I don't like at all, they may be quite excellent.

Very good answer ASD, now that is a shame you saw where I was going. So can we then say ASD that you neither believe that there is or that there isn't a God?

Very good answer ASD, now that is a shame you saw where I was going. So can we then say ASD that you neither believe that there is or that there isn't a God?

That is correct. I am a true agnostic.

That is correct. I am a true agnostic.

Nice to know.

"The Greatest single cause of Atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

Essentially, religious people are just... too easy.

All groups of humans hating other groups basically boils down to the fact that people are bastards.

I will eat your 12 religious babies.

I will eat your 12 religious babies.

Why would I have 12 babies?

Because you religious folk do not know what a condom is. Psh... I don't care what u say that's just my opinion

It's true: I believe any reasonably intelligent and affable person I meet must be an atheist. I try to stop my prejudice, but I can't help it. It's just that traditionally atheists have trouble understanding the values of people who have beliefs different from their own. We're always trying to force our ideas on others-- making children denounce God in school, printing "There is no Supreme Being" on our money, displaying passages from Richard Dawkins in courtrooms... is there no end to our tyranny?

Bwahahah yeah you dirty little heathens!

Although it is an interesting point you make when you say:

'It's just that traditionally atheists have trouble understanding the values of people who have beliefs different from their own.'

The same as I have trouble understanding the conservative POV, or the whole gun ownership thing, or the objectivist deal.

I guess it's just coz thats the way my brain works, and assume that all opposing POV's to my own aare held for the same reason.

So I say to my brothers and sisters in faith, that we should give them dirty heathen bastards an easy time, poor fools, they can't help it, they are only how God has made them!

Bwhahahaha!

So I say to my brothers and sisters in faith, that we should give them dirty heathen bastards an easy time, poor fools, they can't help it, they are only how God has made them!
And any truly benevolent deity wouldn't, I think, worry too much over those of us who can't make that leap of faith.

I mean, Doubting Thomas never went to hell; he just needed to poke some fingers into some scabby wounds.

And any truly benevolent deity wouldn't, I think, worry too much over those of us who can't make that leap of faith.

I mean, Doubting Thomas never went to hell; he just needed to poke some fingers into some scabby wounds.

Exactly, and anyway there is no such thing as hell.

I don't hate all religious people - just the ones that are arseholes.

Exactly, and anyway there is no such thing as hell.
I'd agree, and unless I experience something akin to this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Caravaggio_-_The_Incredulity_of_Saint_Thomas.jpg), I'd say there isn't any heaven either.

(One of my favourie paintings, by the by.)

I don't hate religious people, I just hate God. Because I want him to turn me into an undead zombie when I die, so that I can terrorise and generally eat the brains of all the people who slighted me in life! And I reckon that if I'm disrespectful enough to him, he'll do that to me.

I have no facts to support this highly elaborate theory, however.

I don't know about all atheists, but I don't hate religious people. I just hate when they continuously try to convert me.

Your mothers. All of them. That's what she said. Chuck Norris heard it. Ghetto.

Peep, people's belief in the right to bear arms is somehow rooted in an obscure document known only as The Bill of Rights.

Peep, people's belief in the right to bear arms is somehow rooted in an obscure document known only as The Bill of Rights.

Meh, whatever. The point in my mentioning that is that I have heard all of the arguements for and against, and the for side makes no sense whatsoever to me, yet when I say 'Ohh well it's a culture thing' I get shouted at called a fool, and roundly lambasted. Like I say, it's the way my brain works.

Perhaps I can throw this point into the equation. If I were to claim that little green men built the earth, and that they are watching everything we do, and that they are all powerful, and that I live my life the way the little green men say that I should. I'd have been locked up years ago. Now substitute little green men for God..... Get my point.

I myself am an atheist and I have no problem with people's beliefs. What I do have a problem with, however, is overly religious douchebags who always believe that they're right and every other belief system is wrong, including Atheists, and people who generalize all Atheists by how a few act.

I'm sorry... but I do believe that you fit in the latter. And keep this in mind, if someone hates religion for any reason, take a look at its past. Religion, especially Christianity and Islam, has caused more bloodshed in this world than any other religion simply because they believed their religion was the right one and damn all the others. They were going to conform or they were going to die. You don't see Atheists doing that shit.

The OP never came back on anything here, did he? Just out of curiosity...

:rolleyes:Atheist may appear to hate religious people, because atheists are mentally quite insecure and are self-centred.

As a result, they are quite jealous of religious people, and yet are quite content with people like themselves.

Finally, they are too lazy to learn about people and their faith and/ or are in denial, instead, they think their belief system is 'best' -escapists they are.

They're sad really!:(

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

heheheheh
yet another one of these . . .oh well
basically Atheist generally don't try to force their views on everyone else. Most of "us" believe in the true separation of church and state but thats about it that being Unlike . . .oh for example Christianity in the states, Where the pressure of religion in politics has caused some serious backsliding (ie. Creationism, sexual education and religious teachings). Secondly Religion is anything but a "force for good". Religious differences have been the foremost cause for most if not all the world's atrocities (eg. the crusades, The inquisition, witch hunts and many more). Lastly Most of us have been to church at least once and some of us know even more about your religion (its history and teachings) than you do.

Perhaps I can throw this point into the equation. If I were to claim that little green men built the earth, and that they are watching everything we do, and that they are all powerful, and that I live my life the way the little green men say that I should. I'd have been locked up years ago. Now substitute little green men for God..... Get my point.

Heh that's no point really. It would work if for example we had a multitude of examples of these little green men throughout history and in every culture.

Me as a atheist does not hate religous people.I just cannot comprehend how any person in or out of there mind can hear any of your myths and think wait this all makes sense.So i guess it is a form of pity with a shading of indiffrence.

:rolleyes:Atheist may appear to hate religious people, because atheists are mentally quite insecure and are self-centred.

As a result, they are quite jealous of religious people, and yet are quite content with people like themselves.

Finally, they are too lazy to learn about people and their faith and/ or are in denial, instead, they think their belief system is 'best' -escapists they are.

They're sad really!:(

Wow.
What an incredibly stupid post.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think it has got something to do with the way religious people smell.

Heh that's no point really. It would work if for example we had a multitude of examples of these little green men throughout history and in every culture.

Ah! but we do .. . look at crop circles! and and and . . .um Area 51! and Stonehenge um and those face statue things . . .you know . .. .

So many trolls... Probably sock puppets too!

Cheerio! :)

Ah, I see your problem!

Your problem is that you have generalized what you see and hear, and have not ventured in the many choices that are existing. Look at it this way: if you don't like one flavour, there's bound to be one that you like-seek it.

As a result, there are many denominations or sects. If you use the given literature and understand it well, you shall know what to believe. Do remember you have the potential to discover truth. You would be worshipping a god and not man. So, don't despair at the actions of human beings.

Now, others believe their belief is correct & others are wrong because that's how religion is. That, infact is how the world is. You belive something as truth or you don't. If these people didn't beleive their belief was right, then, their belief would be vague and very easy to criticise.

As a result people want something to believe in, but not only to answer mysteries of the world and life.

Finally, if you decide to talk on something, make sure you're clued up firstly, then power will be in your hands.

atheists hate religious people? I don't! almost everyone I know is religious. anyway, I can only speak for me but I base my world view on evidence, and view religion as a 'gap filler' of sorts that accounts for what people don't know, since there's always gonna be a lot we don't know religions not going away any time soon, which is a pity because all great human achievement (excluding some architectural and artistic works) has been in spite of, rather than because of, religion. We all know about the tragic atrocities committed in its name too.

I invite christians to read the bible, the (literally for me) laughable ethics and dubious origins of the thing make it absurd to me that anyone could possibly believe it. I am extremely thankful that most good people are apathetic (therefore harmless) christians. If God existed, from what his word says about his personality he would have had me brutally murdered long ago for my heretic thoughts and words. Luckily this is anonymous or i'm sure one of his more fundamentalist followers would naturally oblige.

Wow.
What an incredibly stupid post.
Well, if you were SMART you would have something balanced to say, bitch!

I myself am an atheist and I have no problem with people's beliefs. What I do have a problem with, however, is overly religious douchebags who always believe that they're right and every other belief system is wrong, including Atheists, and people who generalize all Atheists by how a few act.

I'm sorry... but I do believe that you fit in the latter. And keep this in mind, if someone hates religion for any reason, take a look at its past. Religion, especially Christianity and Islam, has caused more bloodshed in this world than any other religion simply because they believed their religion was the right one and damn all the others. They were going to conform or they were going to die. You don't see Atheists doing that shit.
Ah, I see your problem!

Your problem is that you have generalized what you see and hear, and have not ventured in the many choices that are existing. Look at it this way: if you don't like one flavour, there's bound to be one that you like-seek it.

As a result, there are many denominations or sects. If you use the given literature and understand it well, you shall know what to believe. Do remember you have the potential to discover truth. You would be worshipping a god and not man. So, don't despair at the actions of human beings.

Now, others believe their belief is correct & others are wrong because that's how religion is. That, infact is how the world is. You belive something as truth or you don't. If these people didn't beleive their belief was right, then, their belief would be vague and very easy to criticise.

As a result people want something to believe in, but not only to answer mysteries of the world and life.

Finally, if you decide to talk on something, make sure you're clued up firstly, then power will be in your hands.

Well, if you were SMART you would have something balanced to say, bitch!

The claim that atheists are just insecure, self-centered jackasses who are jealous of religious people and they're only atheists because they've never learned about religion deserves nothing but mockery. Post something less stupid and people might take you seriously.

Ah, I see your problem!

Your problem is that you have generalized what you see and hear, and have not ventured in the many choices that are existing. Look at it this way: if you don't like one flavour, there's bound to be one that you like-seek it.

As a result, there are many denominations or sects. If you use the given literature and understand it well, you shall know what to believe. Do remember you have the potential to discover truth. You would be worshipping a god and not man. So, don't despair at the actions of human beings.

Now, others believe their belief is correct & others are wrong because that's how religion is. That, infact is how the world is. You belive something as truth or you don't. If these people didn't beleive their belief was right, then, their belief would be vague and very easy to criticise.

As a result people want something to believe in, but not only to answer mysteries of the world and life.

Finally, if you decide to talk on something, make sure you're clued up firstly, then power will be in your hands.

personally AI like atheism. . .It lets me decide what I wanna do and what to think. Secondly I have read those texts and guess what . .. I found the truth! there . . . .is . . . .probably . . .no . . .god! amazing isn't it

I don't hate religious people; I hate the tridefecta (big, dumb, and stubborn) -- which includes at least one pro-socialism atheist who shall go nameless.

As for religion, you'd agree that the ten commandments are the pinnacle of christianity, right? Let's take a look at them:


1 You shall have no other gods before me
2 You shall not make for yourself an idol
3 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
4 Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
5 Honor your father and mother
6 You shall not murder/kill
7 You shall not commit adultery
8 You shall not steal
9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
10 You shall not covet


Apparently, about halfway through the list, jehovah said "Ah, screw it! I'll break each of them!"

* Honor his parents? Hah! Not only does Jehovah refuse to honor them, but he denies their very existence.
* What about Sodom and Gommorrah? What about the great flood? Jehovah's violated #6 over TWO MILLION TIMES, which puts him on the same level as Stalin and Hitler.
* Apparently Jehovah considers himself above the law, as he has no problem banging Jesus's mom.
* In the old testament, he actually ORDERS the israelis to steal Canaan form the people living there. Which is along the lines of "I'll look bad if i strangle Emperor Shao. Li Ru, go do it for me!".
* How many times has Jehovah declared (long list of Fred Phelp's irrational targets) evil? Too many. How many times has he checked if they deserve such a status? Zero.
* He sure as hell covets the worshippers of foreign gods! See Exodus 22:20.

CONCLUSION: Jehovah is not good and loving, but evil, hating, and hypocritical.

Does anybody here knows the difference of atheist and anti-theist?

ya but they are used pretty much interchangeably here

As an atheist myself ,and not ashamed to say so, i find that i'm often on the receiving end of the hate of theistic and deistic people. I mean if being told one is going to hell for being an unbeliever isn't hate then i don't know what is. Anyway religious people have had things all their own way for thousands of years, murdering, torturing, persecuting who ever they liked for any reason their silly superstitious minds could invent. If some atheists feel rather strongly that benighted and foolish followers of taboo and fetish should let rational minds run the world for a while then it's ok with me, they could hardly do a worse job than people of faith.

No, we just dont believe in it. We see religion causes violence and people use it to justify hate and sometimes murder. I wont say we hate it but we dont abide by it thats just mmy opinion

Well, if you were SMART you would have something balanced to say, bitch!

I truly hope you don't expect to get far on these boards with posts like that one.

And please, if this is your approach, stop representing the Faithful. We'd do much better if you sat still and kept your hands away from the keyboard.

I love many religious people. Many people in my family are religious. I used to be one. When I say theistic people know nothing, it's not a message of hate.
It's a statement of fact.
Christians are generally aware that what they preach sounds insane to non-believers, but don't stop to think WHY that is.
God caught Adam and Eve pinching apples, and in His mercy said "I'm going to kill you and all your kids after you. But I'll tell you what, if your grandkids kill my son, we'll call it even." So they did, but everyone still dies.
This is no misstatement, this is official Christian theology, just not phrased in the ordinary way.

I love many religious people. Many people in my family are religious. I used to be one. When I say theistic people know nothing, it's not a message of hate.
It's a statement of fact.
Christians are generally aware that what they preach sounds insane to non-believers, but don't stop to think WHY that is.
God caught Adam and Eve pinching apples, and in His mercy said "I'm going to kill you and all your kids after you. But I'll tell you what, if your grandkids kill my son, we'll call it even." So they did, but everyone still dies.
This is no misstatement, this is official Christian theology, just not phrased in the ordinary way.

I think there's something very important to be noted here.

You acknowledge that's not how it's ordinarily phrased, and that's noteworthy because it's not just phrased differently, it's an entirely different characterization, which is a source of equal frustration for a Christian like myself because we read that the way you put it and think to ourselves "They can't really think this is what we believe in, can they?"

Some people handle that frustration well. Some don't. In either case it certainly doesn't help matters. I also suspect that (and this isn't directed at you in particular, Yellow Leather) when people phrase our beliefs in language like that it reflects a certain level of contempt and definitely not an attitude of open mindedness or a desire to reach an understanding of one another.

Not that both sides aren't guilty of this, but if you're going to claim a position of reason then it follows that you have a certain responsibility to BE reasonable.

Fair enough?

Q: Why do atheists hate religious people?

A: They don't.

This has been another edition of Short Answers To Stupid Questions.

Thank you.

.....reach an understanding of one another.

Atheists can never understand our POV, to them it seem unreasonable, we though have the capacity to understand theirs, even if we reject out of hand some of their belifes.

*shrug* Just one of them things.

Atheists can never understand our POV, to them it seem unreasonable, we though have the capacity to understand theirs, even if we reject out of hand some of their belifes.

*shrug* Just one of them things.

That's incredibly condescending. Just because we think theism is unreasonable doesn't mean we can't understand what you believe. We're not stupid, you know.

I wouldn't say it's categorically impossible for an Atheist to be able to relate to a believer, especially if they used to be one.

The problem is that (and this is true of both sides) there's a lot of emotion involved in the issue and it tends to bring out the worst in people. Both sides exaggerate each others' position to the point of ridicule and it actually forms a barrier for communication.

Atheists can never understand our POV, to them it seem unreasonable, we though have the capacity to understand theirs, even if we reject out of hand some of their belifes.

*shrug* Just one of them things.
Peep, a whole lot of us understand your POV just fine. We simply don't agree with it.

Atheists can never understand our POV, to them it seem unreasonable, we though have the capacity to understand theirs, even if we reject out of hand some of their belifes.

*shrug* Just one of them things.

I can Imagine a world with some great being to follow. Can you bear to imagine one without? Without that crutch to lean on?

Atheists can never understand our POV, to them it seem unreasonable, we though have the capacity to understand theirs, even if we reject out of hand some of their belifes.

*shrug* Just one of them things.

We (or at least I) can understand your POV, it is just that it is one that does not fit with our personal way of being. Most of us were raised in some sort of religion and have chosen or discovered that the subservience to others implicit in religion is not something that appeals to us. I for one can see how religion can provide, for many people, a solace and comfort that is distinctly absent in atheism. It is a question of whether you are the type of person that values independence over security or vice versa.

I wouldn't say it's categorically impossible for an Atheist to be able to relate to a believer, especially if they used to be one.

The problem is that (and this is true of both sides) there's a lot of emotion involved in the issue and it tends to bring out the worst in people. Both sides exaggerate each others' position to the point of ridicule and it actually forms a barrier for communication.

true that . . .as long as you actually mean both sides

That's incredibly condescending. Just because we think theism is unreasonable doesn't mean we can't understand what you believe. We're not stupid, you know.

You belive it to be condesending, but it is not. You can of course have knowledge on what we belive, you can of course study what we study, you cannot unless you belive yourself, comprehend any reasons why we belive as we do.

When we try to explain it, you don't get it, you find it unreasonble, illogical, and you fail to understand. Not condesending, just fact.

I'm an atheist and I really don't care at all about your religious beliefs. Do I hate you? Not at all. I may hate you as a person (if I ever get to know you) but I don't hate you because of your religiousness.

You belive it to be condesending, but it is not. You can of course have knowledge on what we belive, you can of course study what we study, you cannot unless you belive yourself, comprehend any reasons why we belive as we do.

When we try to explain it, you don't get it, you find it unreasonble, illogical, and you fail to understand. Not condesending, just fact.
Perhaps you aren't trying to be condescending, Peep, but you are being condescending. Profoundly so. If you don't want to come off that way then I suggest you rethink what you are saying.

You belive it to be condesending, but it is not. You can of course have knowledge on what we belive, you can of course study what we study, you cannot unless you belive yourself, comprehend any reasons why we belive as we do.

When we try to explain it, you don't get it, you find it unreasonble, illogical, and you fail to understand. Not condesending, just fact.

So you don't believe as we do, yet you can understand us.
But because we do not believe as you do-- even if we once did-- we cannot understand you?

You saying that only theists are capable of understanding ideas other than their own, and somehow, you say that's not condescending?

When we try to explain it, you don't get it, you find it unreasonble, illogical, and you fail to understand. Not condesending, just fact.

You're equivocating. To understand is not to accept. You obviously have a double standard here, too: you recognize the distinction when it comes to theists (who can understand an atheism they reject) but not when it comes to atheists (who, according to you, can't understand theism because they reject it.)

Peep, a whole lot of us understand your POV just fine. We simply don't agree with it.

Ohhh I get that, but I don't really think you do.

The thing with rationalisation, is if you can't rationalise it then you can't understand it.

We all do it. I personaly can't rationalise the concept of a mother killing her kids. Okay yes I can say, ohhh mental health issues, or she was depressed and attempt to understand it that way, but without experiancing, without being able to be in the killer mothers head, how can I understand the reasons for her actions.

You can't rationalise belife in God, the very thing is irrational, so unless you belive, then you just don't get it.

You belive it to be condesending, but it is not. You can of course have knowledge on what we belive, you can of course study what we study, you cannot unless you belive yourself, comprehend any reasons why we belive as we do.

When we try to explain it, you don't get it, you find it unreasonble, illogical, and you fail to understand. Not condesending, just fact.

Are you entirely stupid? Many non-believer were, at one time, believers. So what exactly are you trying to claim here? That because they no longer believe they can't possibly understand what You, Personally, feel? You honestly thin your that much better? You honestly think we don't "understand" why you would want to believe in some sort of life after death or in a great being who makes the world all "make sense"? Honestly I think you may be too afraid to understand that we do, in fact, see things from your point of view but have decided that that way is not for us. Cause then maybe your POV might not be so much better after all

You belive it to be condesending, but it is not. You can of course have knowledge on what we belive, you can of course study what we study, you cannot unless you belive yourself, comprehend any reasons why we belive as we do.

When we try to explain it, you don't get it, you find it unreasonble, illogical, and you fail to understand. Not condesending, just fact.

How do you decide what I get, what I understand?

Are you assuming that if I understood I would automatically be a believer?

One is capable of putting oneself in the position of the other, considering the circumstances from that position and finding that although there is considerable justification to the position of the other, for the other, this justification simply does not work for oneself.

Belief, and absence of belief, do not need reason. They are responses that come from deep within the personality. They are indicators of who we are in some aspect, and as such descriptions such as 'unreasonable and illogical' are only surface justifications of much more profound motivations.

Ohhh I get that, but I don't really think you do.

Well, that's okay. You're allowed to be wrong.


The thing with rationalisation, is if you can't rationalise it then you can't understand it.

I invoke The Montoya Principle.

That word does not mean what you think it means.


We all do it. I personaly can't rationalise the concept of a mother killing her kids. Okay yes I can say, ohhh mental health issues, or she was depressed and attempt to understand it that way, but without experiancing, without being able to be in the killer mothers head, how can I understand the reasons for her actions.

You can't rationalise belife in God, the very thing is irrational, so unless you belive, then you just don't get it.
Plenty of people who believe in God will freely tell you that they believe their faith is irrational. I've encountered several such on NSG.

You're basically trying to equate two things that are not even necessarily related, let alone equivalent.

Perhaps you aren't trying to be condescending, Peep, but you are being condescending. Profoundly so. If you don't want to come off that way then I suggest you rethink what you are saying.

Meh! I'm not really botherd about what way I come off. If you want to think me condesending, then go right ahead.

However if my words are condesending, then surly each time an athiest calls me thick for beliving in God(read can't comprehend my reasons for doing so) that is also condesending?

Are you entirely stupid?

Now now, no need for that.

Peep isn't stupid. He's just arrogant and acting somewhat rudely at the moment, but from personal experience I think this is just due to ignorance/misunderstanding rather than aggressive stupidity.


Many non-believer were, at one time, believers. So what exactly are you trying to claim here? That because they no longer believe they can't possibly understand what You, Personally, feel? You honestly thin your that much better?

Short answer: yes, yes he does.

If you once believed but no longer believe, then clearly you didn't REALLY believe in the first place, because nobody who REALLY believes would ever change their mind.

Also, No True Scotsman wears plaid after Labor Day.

Now now, no need for that.

Peep isn't stupid. He's just arrogant and acting somewhat rudely at the moment, but from personal experience I think this is just due to ignorance/misunderstanding rather than aggressive stupidity.


Short answer: yes, yes he does.

If you once believed but no longer believe, then clearly you didn't REALLY believe in the first place, because nobody who REALLY believes would ever change their mind.

Also, No True Scotsman wears plaid after Labor Day.
aight well thanks for clearing that up
and
"was like us?"
"guy few an their aw died!"

Meh! I'm not really botherd about what way I come off. If you want to think me condesending, then go right ahead.

I don't particularly want to think that you are condescending, but fortunately my wants on the matter aren't really relevant.

Personally, I'd rather think that you're a 20-foot-tall pink chinchilla, because that would be really fucking cool, but I don't think that because it's astronomically unlikely to be true. One of the downsides to being a rational human being is that my opinions are impacted by reality.


However if my words are condesending, then surly each time an athiest calls me thick for beliving in God(read can't comprehend my reasons for doing so) that is also condesending?
Ahh, the "They Started It!" gambit. Not the strongest move, unless you're already prepared to launch the Theists-are-sanctified-rubber and Atheists-are-yucky-godless-glue offensive, posthaste.

The thing with rationalisation, is if you can't rationalise it then you can't understand it.

Nonsense. There are all kinds of irrational behavior and belief that we are perfectly capable of understanding, even without giving up our judgment of their irrationality.

We all understand that human beings are not perfectly rational... and also, in what ways we tend not to be.

but without experiancing, without being able to be in the killer mothers head, how can I understand the reasons for her actions.

So, according to you, no atheists have ever believed?

You can't rationalise belife in God, the very thing is irrational, so unless you belive, then you just don't get it.

That's a substantial logical leap. Because someone doesn't have faith, that person can't understand faith?

Oh, it might be different if we were speaking of people without any capacity for faith... but most atheists have at one point been religious, and even those who haven't been are still human, with the same capacity as anyone else. Some of us (me, for instance) have even been quite tempted to relapse... something you can hardly explain if we are just uncomprehending when it comes to faith.

So you don't believe as we do, yet you can understand us.
But because we do not believe as you do-- even if we once did-- we cannot understand you?

You saying that only theists are capable of understanding ideas other than their own, and somehow, you say that's not condescending?

No I'm saying that Atheist are incabaple of understanding why we belive as we do.

Let me ask you this very simple question. Why do I belive in God, dispite admiting that it is ilogical, and unreasonable to do so?

Ahh, the "They Started It!" gambit. Not the strongest move, unless you're already prepared to launch the Theists-are-sanctified-rubber and Atheists-are-yucky-godless-glue offensive, posthaste.

That may sound intimidating, but I have the "I know you are, but what am I?" trick up my sleeve.

Why do I belive in God, dispite admiting that it is ilogical, and unreasonable to do so?

How would we know, in your particular case?

I know why I believed in God, I know why some of my friends believe in God, I know why my father believes in God, I know in general terms why many people are inclined to believe in God, I know why I am sometimes tempted to believe in God.

But I fear I can't read your mind. If you told us, though, I bet we would able to understand.

I can Imagine a world with some great being to follow. Can you bear to imagine one without? Without that crutch to lean on?

Yeah you see, you just show you don't understand. How do you know that my belife is any sort of crutch to me, you assume it must be so in an attempt to rationalise my irationality don't you, huh huh?

I can imagine a world 'without some great big being to follow'.

Indeed I follow no great big being, wait, I used to follow my dad around when I was small!

No I'm saying that Atheist are incabaple of understanding why we belive as we do.

Let me ask you this very simple question. Why do I belive in God, dispite admiting that it is ilogical, and unreasonable to do so?

I don't know you well enough to say.

But I can tell you why I believed when I did. It was a combination of things, including my upbringing, the fact that it made me feel more secure, the fact that I'd grown up mostly around other Christians, and virtually entirely around other theists.

But it's obviously different from person to person--and as I said, I do not know you, personally, well enough to say.

No I'm saying that Atheist are incabaple of understanding why we belive as we do.

Let me ask you this very simple question. Why do I belive in God, dispite admiting that it is ilogical, and unreasonable to do so?

Because it is part of your personal make up to seek comfort and security.

Nothing wrong with that, just different to the make up of an honest atheist.

You're equivocating. To understand is not to accept. You obviously have a double standard here, too: you recognize the distinction when it comes to theists (who can understand an atheism they reject) but not when it comes to atheists (who, according to you, can't understand theism because they reject it.)

No I do not belive so. Again let me ask you the question, why do I belive in God even though I admit it is both illogical and unresonable to do so?

How would we know, in your particular case?

I know why I believed in God, I know why some of my friends believe in God, I know why my father believes in God, I know in general terms why many people are inclined to believe in God, I know why I am sometimes tempted to believe in God.

But I fear I can't read your mind. If you told us, though, I bet we would able to understand.

Saying it better and sooner than I did. Curses!:tongue:

No I'm saying that Atheist are incabaple of understanding why we belive as we do.

Let me ask you this very simple question. Why do I belive in God, dispite admiting that it is ilogical, and unreasonable to do so?
Let me answer your simple question with an even simpler question.

Why do I lack belief in god?

Can you really speak for all Atheists?

Did you not read the part where I said, "or at least this is true of those I know"? I never claimed to speak for all. Just the evil I know.

Now who is making broad assumptions about mass services, I have been to plenty and not once been told how I am hellbound etc.

I never said all mass was like that. That was my own experience.

I have been to others. I've been to a Baptist one. That was no only boring but there was nothing to look at. The minister was boring as hell. In fact, I had only gone because a friend of mine wanted a bunch of us there for her baptismal confirmation. All I remember was being bored, and getting elbowed a lot by this evagelical friend of ours because I wasn't paying attention. So, it wasn't the same as the Greek Orthodox one in terms of material (and definitely without the "Simon Says" element) but I still remember nearly falling asleep and being bored.

That is not to say some of your other stuff above had didn't have some merit.

Why thank you.

:rolleyes:Atheist may appear to hate religious people, because atheists are mentally quite insecure and are self-centred.

As an Atheist, religion appears to be a crutch, IMO (and the rest of this paragraph is IMO). It is for those who are mentally insecure and need something to fill the void. Whereas Atheism is about, I know there's nothing yet I feel fine knowing that.

As for the self-centred bit, that applied to humanity in general irregarding one's religious or lack thereof religious affiliation.

As a result, they are quite jealous of religious people, and yet are quite content with people like themselves.

Where are you getting this tripe?

Finally, they are too lazy to learn about people and their faith and/ or are in denial, instead, they think their belief system is 'best' -escapists they are.

I studied world religions in high school and again in College. I went to the Christian Fellowship group in grade 9 until I realised that it didn't suit me. I sat for hours while my best friend told me while he had converted to Islam and why it was the right religion. I dabbled in Buddhism. I picked Atheism because it made the most sense to me. None of the others reflected what I believed. Atheism does.

Exactly how is it lazy to do comparative shopping for religion?

I'll tell you what I think is lazy; sticking to the same religion your parents force on you instead of going out and asking yourself, "who am I and what do I believe in?" And seeking the answer to that question.

Are you entirely stupid? Many non-believer were, at one time, believers. So what exactly are you trying to claim here? That because they no longer believe they can't possibly understand what You, Personally, feel? You honestly thin your that much better? You honestly think we don't "understand" why you would want to believe in some sort of life after death or in a great being who makes the world all "make sense"? Honestly I think you may be too afraid to understand that we do, in fact, see things from your point of view but have decided that that way is not for us. Cause then maybe your POV might not be so much better after all

Wow am I entirly stupid? No not entirley.

It's interesting to note the tone and number of post all of a sudden, when I dare to suggest that we theists may be a little smarter than you atheists seem to think, that perhaps we see certian things that you cannot comprehend, yet we are called stupid all of the time, and I guess we are supposed to sit there and just take that huh?

As to what I fel that does not enter into it, I mean what I say, you are incapable of understanding why I belive in God, nothing less nothing more.

If that has touched a nerve, if that makes you belive I am saying anything that you accuse me of saying in the above, or that I belive myself to be in someway superior to you, then that is your perception of the thing and has nowt to do with me.

How would we know, in your particular case?

I know why I believed in God, I know why some of my friends believe in God, I know why my father believes in God, I know in general terms why many people are inclined to believe in God, I know why I am sometimes tempted to believe in God.

But I fear I can't read your mind. If you told us, though, I bet we would able to understand.
Precisely.

If anything, I've found that people in general, and people in General, almost always are wrong when they try to guess what I believe and why I believe it.

Religious individuals are far and away the most likely to do this, usually because they misunderstand what "atheist" really means, and because they're less likely to perceive distinctions between "types" of non-believers. (I don't find that surprising, given that--for example--non-Christians are often less likely to perceive distinctions between different types of Christians, etc.)

I don't think religiosity automatically confers the ability to understand religion. I certainly don't think godlessness automatically removes any part of that ability, either. Understanding does not require belief or agreement.

It's interesting to note the tone and number of post all of a sudden, when I dare to suggest that we theists may be a little smarter than you atheists seem to think, that perhaps we see certian things that you cannot comprehend, yet we are called stupid all of the time, and I guess we are supposed to sit there and just take that huh?

Now this is just dishonest.

Peep, you know quite well that you didn't simply suggest that theists might be a little smarter than atheists think they are. You stated, flat out, that theists can understand atheists but atheists can't understand theists. You made a blanket statement about atheists that is both insulting and arrogant.

Don't pretend like you're oh-so-shocked that atheists dared to respond to your insult. You know precisely how you respond when atheists say shit like that about you, so it's really not convincing for you to feign innocence at this point.

Or, to put it another way:

If you actually understood atheists, or people for that matter, then you'd have known precisely why and how your remarks were offensive. If you're claiming that the response you got is "interesting" to you, then that suggests you were not completely aware that you were going to get exactly that response, which means that there's a pretty giant gap in your understanding of atheists.

Alternatively, if you did understand atheists as well as you claim, then you knew exactly what response you were going to get, and you did it anyway, thereby intentionally provoking the response that you got.

I notice that Peep has chosen to ignore completely my comments. Why?

I've not read this entire thread, but I wanted to weigh in before I did. I think both sides are quite hostile to the other. Most of the time atheists don't try to legislate their beliefs on others. The same cannot be said about overly religious people. Proselytizing and trying to convert everyone doesn't endear you to them. That's just my take.

I think there's something very important to be noted here.

You acknowledge that's not how it's ordinarily phrased, and that's noteworthy because it's not just phrased differently, it's an entirely different characterization, which is a source of equal frustration for a Christian like myself because we read that the way you put it and think to ourselves "They can't really think this is what we believe in, can they?"

Some people handle that frustration well. Some don't. In either case it certainly doesn't help matters. I also suspect that (and this isn't directed at you in particular, Yellow Leather) when people phrase our beliefs in language like that it reflects a certain level of contempt and definitely not an attitude of open mindedness or a desire to reach an understanding of one another.

Not that both sides aren't guilty of this, but if you're going to claim a position of reason then it follows that you have a certain responsibility to BE reasonable.

Fair enough?

How can people of faith expect people to be reasonable with them? Is it reasonable to believe in invisible spiritual entities that control all life in the universe according to perverse principals laid down by our primitive ancestors, and that anyone who does not believe in these entities is going to spend eternity suffering for it in a mythical after life?
Is it reasonable to accept that these beliefs are somehow socially beneficial even though they have caused eons of misery, suffering, violence, hatred, bigotry, and cruelty?
Is it reasonable to forgive modern believers in these foolish and dangerous superstitions for the crimes their faith has commited even though non of these faiths has properly admitted to them, let alone properly apologised or made restitution?
Is it reasonable to pretend that these beleifs are not an expression of what is most wicked and unpleasant in human nature?
Is it reasonable to ignore that these faiths have operated as massive international criminal organisations, oppressing, extorting, brutalising and profiteering where ever they have been allowed to?

Seriously does any of this seem reasonable to you?

Did you not read the part where I said, "or at least this is true of those I know"? I never claimed to speak for all. Just the evil I know.


Nah, now why would I bother about little details like that, just the evil, I don't know maybe you speak for the good instead.


Why thank you.

Your Welcome :)

How do you decide what I get, what I understand?

I don't get to decide that you do, or your brian, or your genetics, or your upbringing.

Are you assuming that if I understood I would automatically be a believer?

I guess that is a reasonable assumption.

One is capable of putting oneself in the position of the other, considering the circumstances from that position and finding that although there is considerable justification to the position of the other, for the other, this justification simply does not work for oneself.

That is true.

Belief, and absence of belief, do not need reason. They are responses that come from deep within the personality. They are indicators of who we are in some aspect, and as such descriptions such as 'unreasonable and illogical' are only surface justifications of much more profound motivations.

Again that is true.

How can people of faith expect people to be reasonable with them? Is it reasonable to believe in invisible spiritual entities that control all life in the universe according to perverse principals laid down by our primitive ancestors, and that anyone who does not believe in these entities is going to spend eternity suffering for it in a mythical after life?
Is it reasonable to accept that these beliefs are somehow socially beneficial even though they have caused eons of misery, suffering, violence, hatred, bigotry, and cruelty?
Is it reasonable to forgive modern believers in these foolish and dangerous superstitions for the crimes their faith has commited even though non of these faiths has properly admitted to them, let alone properly apologised or made restitution?
Is it reasonable to pretend that these beleifs are not an expression of what is most wicked and unpleasant in human nature?
Is it reasonable to ignore that these faiths have operated as massive international criminal organisations, oppressing, extorting, brutalising and profiteering where ever they have been allowed to?

Seriously does any of this seem reasonable to you?
The "they started it" excuse isn't any more valid coming from a non-believer.

I behave in a reasonable manner even when dealing with unreasonable people.

I invoke The Montoya Principle.

Surely you don't mean this wanker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JuanMontoyaBristol2007_%28cropped%29.jpg#file

You're basically trying to equate two things that are not even necessarily related, let alone equivalent.

Ignoring the rest of your irrelevnce, how so?

Surely you don't mean this wanker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JuanMontoyaBristol2007_%28cropped%29.jpg#file

Haha, no, I mean this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inigo_Montoya

Wow am I entirly stupid? No not entirley.

It's interesting to note the tone and number of post all of a sudden, when I dare to suggest that we theists may be a little smarter than you atheists seem to think, that perhaps we see certian things that you cannot comprehend, yet we are called stupid all of the time, and I guess we are supposed to sit there and just take that huh?

As to what I fel that does not enter into it, I mean what I say, you are incapable of understanding why I belive in God, nothing less nothing more.

If that has touched a nerve, if that makes you belive I am saying anything that you accuse me of saying in the above, or that I belive myself to be in someway superior to you, then that is your perception of the thing and has nowt to do with me.
1)funny cause the way your acting . . .
2)don't give me that Peep you made a statement saying that ALL theist are in Someway able to understand All Atheist but that the reverse is not true. Yet again someone religious claims that they are in some way better and supports it by say "you couldn't possibly understand why! I just am!"
3)I disagree and thats not all you said in anyway. also are you capable of understanding why I don't?
4)bull. Your claims are that you are superior. Don't try to back out of it now peep your doing so well.

Ignoring the rest of your irrelevnce, how so?
Perhaps you, with your theist's superior powers of understanding, can explain to my why I should bother continuing to converse with you, if you're going to simply ignore anything you don't like?

You are contradicting yourself Peep.

If, as you admit is true, belief and absence of belief are reflections of deep personality traits, then if my personality is such that I am a non believer, then even if I understood belief I would not automatically be a believer now, would I?

Bottle - leave this pointless thread and come give your considered opinion in the deeply intellectual Booger thread as to the genetic implications of creating a new brain

Bottle - leave this pointless thread and come give your considered opinion in the deeply intellectual Booger thread as to the genetic implications of creating a new brain
Wait, there's a booger thread?!

TO THE BOTTLE-MOBILE!

The claim that atheists are just insecure, self-centered jackasses who are jealous of religious people and they're only atheists because they've never learned about religion deserves nothing but mockery. Post something less stupid and people might take you seriously.

PC wasn't he joking? Certainly the rolleyes at the beginning of the post gave it away. Don't worry we all fall for this at some point, just ask Nicea Santa

Haha, no, I mean this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inigo_Montoya

OH, I have never read it nor seen it, are they any good? Would you recommend them to me? It sounds interesting.

The "they started it" excuse isn't any more valid coming from a non-believer.

I behave in a reasonable manner even when dealing with unreasonable people.

I never said "they started it" i'm merely pointing out that reason is alien to persons of faith and is therefore redundant when dealing with them.
Besides how does a reasonable person argue with someone who excuses the crimes and horrors of religion by claiming " God wills it " ?

OH, I have never read it nor seen it, are they any good? Would you recommend them to me? It sounds interesting.

It's a fantastic film, far be it from me to recommend dodgy sources - thought the site's received USD30M from a US VC fund - but you can go to www.youku.com and watch it.

I never said "they started it" i'm merely pointing out that reason is alien to persons of faith and is therefore redundant when dealing with them.
Besides how does a reasonable person argue with someone who excuses the crimes and horrors of religion by claiming " God wills it " ?

Who said they excused it, also look at the second quote of my sig, that says something.

No I'm saying that Atheist are incabaple of understanding why we belive as we do.

Let me ask you this very simple question. Why do I belive in God, dispite admiting that it is ilogical, and unreasonable to do so?

You know, based on that logic I would assume that most atheists (namely those who used to believe, but don't any more) actually understand belief a good deal better than people who just belief.

After all, they were in the same state of mind you are in right now. Believing despite illogical and irrational concepts that form the basis of religion.
But they eventually moved one step further, away from believe and into atheism. They know what it's like to believe, because they used to. But they also know what it's like not to believe, because they don't any more.

Can you honestly claim to understand what it's like to have believed and not believe any longer?

I've seen it time after time on these boards. A discussion about religion automatically turns into Christians/Muslims/Jew/anyone-who-has-theistic-views being complete idiots who know absolutely nothing? Do you seriously not see the good things religion brings? Do you not have the capacity to see beyond your own nose? If you met me in real life, you would find me an intelligent, educated man, and automatically think "He has to be like me, Atheist!" Well guess what? I'm not. I believe in God as the creator of our universe. I believe he sent Jesus Christ as his only son to save our sorry skins from eternal damnation. So try going to church a few times and see what good you hate.

Well sir I have gone to church for several years of my life. The problem i as an Atheist, Former member of the protestant church and as an American have with relegion is that it seems that religion trys so hard to tell me what I may read, listen to, or watch. They beleive that they have some right to tell me what my moral code should be.
The church should not be teaching science (i.e. evolutionism vs. inteligent design), the church should not be getting involved in politics, and they most deffinatly should not be telling me how to live my life. I do not need to go to church to have a sense of morality. I am still able to hold a just, self-rightous and wholesome life with out some religion telling me what's right and wrong. What I decide to do in the privacy of my own bedroom is not any one elses business, what I decide to subject myself to is not any one elses business, My sense of morality is no one elses business, and finally how I decide to vote is no one elses business(i.e. many pastors start preaching politics to there congregation).
I see the church as the enemy of political freedoms, they want to put hampers on our right of freedom of speech and freedom of the press by censorship. Here's an idea, why don't people start monitoring what is good for there children to be exposed to instead of the rest of us. Be a parent and do your job!
No one is judging your intelect or the mental abilities of persons of the church. I have meet many, many very intelegent people in church, that is not what upsets the rest of us. What bothers us is that the church with all there infinate wisdom beleives that they have the answers to our problems, and while true would be forcing us to give up many political freedoms.
If i as an American should be forced to see a cross or other religious symbol on top of a building on my way to work then you should have to be subject to the possibility of seeing a nude women on a bill board selling under arm deoderant (that was just an idea off the top of my head) but instead we dont see any nude women or symbols of drugs or anything like that because the church has been doing a wonderfull job with sensorship. they have been succesffully determining what the rest of society is subjected to.
This country was NOT and I say again NOT founded on religious beleiefs, regardless of what kind of laws we may have (i.e. dont kill, steal and so on and so on)

The Constitution of the United States (1787-1788; 1st TenAmendments ["Bill of Rights"] ratified 1791; no reference to anygod is to be found in the body or in the amendments to theConstitution)

The senators and representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. (Article VI, Section 3, The Constitution of the United States.)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the freedom of press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. (Amendment 1,The Constitution of the United States.)

Treaty of Peace and Friendship Between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, 1796-1797

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion--as it has itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims], ... ("Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between The United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary," 1796-1797. Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America. Edited by Hunter Miller. Vol. 2, 1776-1818, U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1931, p. 365. From George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 45. According to Paul F. Boller [George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 87-88] the treaty was written by Joel Barlow, negotiated during Washington's administration, concluded on November 4, 1796, ratified by the Senate in June, 1797, and signed [see below] by John Adams [2nd U.S. President] on June 10, 1797. Boller concluded that "Very likely Washington shared Barlow's view, though there is no record of his opinion about the treaty ..." [p.88]. Jefferson was Secretary of State in Washington's first administration but had resigned when the treaty was written. Jefferson was Vice-President when the treaty was ratified and signed. Barlow, identified in The American Heritage Dictionary as an American "poet and diplomat," 1754-1812, knew and corresponded extensively with Jefferson. Among many letters Jefferson wrote Barlow was one written on March 14, 1801, just ten days after Jefferson's first inauguration as President.)

It's a fantastic film, far be it from me to recommend dodgy sources - thought the site's received USD30M from a US VC fund - but you can go to www.youku.com and watch it.

Ok thanks Barry, umm what characters should I place in to watch it I couldn't read, write or speak Japanese if my life depended on it. And if it isn't Japanese then that just goes to show you how much I know haha

Now now, no need for that.

Peep isn't stupid. He's just arrogant and acting somewhat rudely at the moment, but from personal experience I think this is just due to ignorance/misunderstanding rather than aggressive stupidity.

Heh I find my words neiher stupid nor rude.


Short answer: yes, yes he does.

What rubbish, and again indicitive of what I'm talking about. You fail to understand why I belive as I do, and so you attribute a false rational to why I have posted as I have.


[QUOTE=Bottle;13898849]If you once believed but no longer believe, then clearly you didn't REALLY believe in the first place, because nobody who REALLY believes would ever change their mind.[QUOTE]

Perhaps, or possibly they where indoctrianted into their familes belife structure, and once old enought to really think things through, then they realised that they couldn't get with something so irrational and thus 'stopped beliving'.

In cases like this then I would say the same thing, if you can't belive or understand the irrational then how can you understand why I belive?

I never said "they started it" i'm merely pointing out that reason is alien to persons of faith and is therefore redundant when dealing with them.

1) Redundant isn't the word you're looking for.
2) Reason is NOT alien to all persons of faith. It's rude (and ignorant) to insist on that.
3) Again, there's no reason why your behavior should be dictated by the lowest common denominator.


Besides how does a reasonable person argue with someone who excuses the crimes and horrors of religion by claiming " God wills it " ?
You'd argue reasonably, of course.

Sometimes reasonable arguments work. Sometimes they don't. I've seen people change their minds and their stances on this very forum. I've seen rational arguments get through. And I've seen times when it doesn't work and somebody is just determined to be unreasonable.

Win some, lose some.

I never said "they started it" i'm merely pointing out that reason is alien to persons of faith and is therefore redundant when dealing with them.
Besides how does a reasonable person argue with someone who excuses the crimes and horrors of religion by claiming " God wills it " ?

First show me a 'reasonable person'. People are not reasonable - they, and that includes me, simply use reason to justify their actions and desires. What we call a 'reasonable person' is a person whose justifications are those that we can agree with. 'God wills it' is as empirically valid as 'It is for the future good'. Just you can agree with one of these and not with the other, thus you accept it as reasonable.

OH, I have never read it nor seen it, are they any good? Would you recommend them to me? It sounds interesting.

The Princess Bride is a pretty decent comedy flick, I'd say it's worth viewing. There are a number of memorable quotes.

The one I was referring to was when Montoya says to another character, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Ok thanks Barry, umm what characters should I place in to watch it I couldn't read, write or speak Japanese if my life depended on it. And if it isn't Japanese then that just goes to show you how much I know haha

It's Chinese and you can type the English - The Princess Bride

The 'word' is 'inconceivable'.

Can you honestly claim to understand what it's like to have believed and not believe any longer?
Honest or not, that's precisely what he's claiming.

He claims that he is able to understand the atheist's perspective without ever having experienced it, but that an atheist cannot understand the theist's perspective, even though many atheists are former theists.

Ahh, the "They Started It!" gambit. Not the strongest move, unless you're already prepared to launch the Theists-are-sanctified-rubber and Atheists-are-yucky-godless-glue offensive, posthaste.


Meh nothing of the sort.

Who said they excused it, also look at the second quote of my sig, that says something.


You were saying that i was excusing my own opinions ( though i need no excuse for them ) by claiming that religious persons began a cycle of hatred that in your opinion atheists should treat reasonably. I was pointing out that theists do excuse themselves and that this puts them beyond reason.

Certainly not worthy of hate but definitely contemptable.

The Princess Bride is a pretty decent comedy flick, I'd say it's worth viewing. There are a number of memorable quotes.

The one I was referring to was when Montoya says to another character, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Haha, hence why I didn't get the reference. Cheers Bottle.

...I for one can see how religion can provide, for many people, a solace and comfort that is distinctly absent in atheism. It is a question of whether you are the type of person that values independence over security or vice versa.

I value independence over security. I am also a theist. I think your characterisations of what impels people to one side or the other are wrong.

Religion has to be justified... but so does Atheism. In the midst of all the discusson, some people feel to passionately about what they believe, hence the underhanded comments and the immature name-calling.

I find it odd that intellectual fora such as this easily deteriorate into such exchanges...

It's Chinese and you can type the English - The Princess Bride

The 'word' is 'inconceivable'.

So close and yet so far, damn lol(Please don't tell me how different the two languages are, I am sure they are)

Apart from that thanks. I will watch it a some point in the near future.

I find it odd that intellectual fora such as this easily deteriorate into such exchanges...

Well we know you haven't been here for long without looking at your post count. :) Welcome to the fun and exciting world of NSG

I value independence over security. I am also a theist. I think your characterisations of what impels people to one side or the other are wrong.

OK, so why do you believe then? Can you express it in any way at all?

It simply does not fit together being a full blown theist, who attributes all meaning in life to the will of a 'father figure' deity with valuing independence over security. Perhaps if you are a first mover theist, who does not attribute the meaning and value in their life to a deity, then this combination can work.

Meh nothing of the sort.

"Nuh-uh!"

I am an atheist, but i dont hate religious people.
Atheist just means, that you dont believe in god.

You were saying that i was excusing my own opinions ( though i need no excuse for them ) by claiming that religious persons began a cycle of hatred that in your opinion atheists should treat reasonably. I was pointing out that theists do excuse themselves and that this puts them beyond reason.

Sorry, when did I say you were excusing your own opininons? Regardless mate what?

OK, so why do you believe then? Can you express it in any way at all?

It simply does not fit together being a full blown theist, who attributes all meaning in life to the will of a 'father figure' deity with valuing independence over security. Perhaps if you are a first mover theist, who does not attribute the meaning and value in their life to a deity, then this combination can work.

I see. It has to do with your limited definition of what a theist is. I would think that valung independence over security is what separates the curious mind from the complacent one. One can be a curious and inquisitive theist.

I believe in a deity because it seems to be the most rational explanation for the experiences I have observed.

Religion has to be justified... but so does Atheism.

Likewise, belief in Santa has to be justified...and so does lack of belief in Santa.

Personally I don't think you have to "justify" a damn thing that you believe in, unless or until you decide to make your beliefs somebody else's problem.

If you want to be privately religious, then you can go ahead with that and never justify a single thing about your beliefs, as far as I'm concerned. I only expect somebody to justify their beliefs when they make those beliefs a public issue.


In the midst of all the discusson, some people feel to passionately about what they believe, hence the underhanded comments and the immature name-calling.

I find it odd that intellectual fora such as this easily deteriorate into such exchanges...
Welcome to the inter-webs, where absolutely everything always deteriorates into such exchanges.

Athiesm is as much a belief as not playing chess is a hobby.

I'm an atheist, and I hate that people automatically assume I hate Christians. Most of my friends are Christians. I'm fine with that. What I have a problem with is people who shove religion in my face, or look down on me because I haven't been "saved."

Nah, now why would I bother about little details like that, just the evil, I don't know maybe you speak for the good instead.

The little details are quite bothersome when trying to blindside your oppontant, aren't they? ;)

:hail: Details! DETAILS!

1) Redundant isn't the word you're looking for.
2) Reason is NOT alien to all persons of faith. It's rude (and ignorant) to insist on that.
3) Again, there's no reason why your behavior should be dictated by the lowest common denominator.


You'd argue reasonably, of course.

Sometimes reasonable arguments work. Sometimes they don't. I've seen people change their minds and their stances on this very forum. I've seen rational arguments get through. And I've seen times when it doesn't work and somebody is just determined to be unreasonable.

Win some, lose some.


Thank you i don't need english lessons, redundant is exactly the word i meant to use.

Religion is the polar oposite of reason, those who are perceptive enough to use reason in their every day lives and yet still cling to religion cannot be being entirely honest with themselves. Generally they do so for sentimental reasons. This would be perfectly fine if the religions they cling to were not so massively culpable of dreadfull crimes and atrocities. It is not ignorant to hold this opinion, and why should i be so tentative toward persons who believe i will burn forever in hell?

I might point out that my opinions would have had me burnt at the stake in times past, so forgive me if i do not show a false reverence for beliefs i see as criminal and destructive.

Oh and if my behaviour were being dictated by the lowest common denominator of religion i would be out bombing abortion clinics, butchering the children of heretics and infidels and oppressing millions of people with my wicked morbid obsessions. As it is i am posting my perfectly reasonable opinions in an online forum and being castigated for it.

The little details are quite bothersome when trying to blindside your oppontant, aren't they? ;)

:hail: Details! DETAILS!

Haha, mate only having a bit of fun with ya.

Religion is the polar oposite of reason, those who are perceptive enough to use reason in their every day lives and yet still cling to religion cannot be being entirely honest with themselves. Generally they do so for sentimental reasons. This would be perfectly fine if the religions they cling to were not so massively culpable of dreadfull crimes and atrocities. It is not ignorant to hold this opinion, and why should i be so tentative toward persons who believe i will burn forever in hell?

I might point out that my opinions would have had me burnt at the stake in times past, so forgive me if i do not show a false reverence for beliefs i see as criminal and destructive. ....

Hello. I am a mystic. Please explain to me why I cling to my religion for sentimental reasons, how my beliefs are responsible for atrocities, or why I would want you to be tentative in discussing my beliefs.

I might point out that my opinions would also have had me burnt at the stake in times past, so forgive me if I do not show any sympathy for your imagined persecution at the hands of theists.

I'm atheist and I love religion! It's incurably interesting! All the history even if it is a little distorted. I go to every type of religious building I can find and sit in it and watch what happens. I don't believe in god. I think life happened by chance and this is all a big fluke. However I respect other peoples views and their rights to have them. I have read every single one of the holy books and they are all well written and really enjoyable. There just...not for me.

Religion has to be justified... but so does Atheism. In the midst of all the discusson, some people feel to passionately about what they believe, hence the underhanded comments and the immature name-calling.

I find it odd that intellectual fora such as this easily deteriorate into such exchanges...

lol you haven't been around here long have u? :D

the religions they cling to were not so massively culpable of dreadfull crimes and atrocities.

The religions don't do this but rather the people use their religion as an excuse to do this.

But hey every single atrocity and war and anything bad that has happened is because of religion.

I might point out that my opinions would have had me burnt at the stake in times past, so forgive me if i do not show a false reverence for beliefs i see as criminal and destructive.

You might but then what would be the point, it is like saying that all English are evil because in times past they traded slaves.

Nothing like punishing the sins of the father onto the son hey.

I can Imagine a world with some great being to follow. Can you bear to imagine one without? Without that crutch to lean on?

I take exception to the idea (which has been advanced before on this forum) that somehow religion is only for people who can't handle reality without it. Is that what you're saying, or are you only talking about some cases?

true that . . .as long as you actually mean both sides

Of course.


<snip>
Seriously does any of this seem reasonable to you?

No, but then neither do any of your posts on this thread so...

Actually it's interesting that you posted that when you did, because it's an absolutely perfect example of what I said before about people discussing those on the other side of the issue with contempt rather than with understanding. I'm not going to get into refuting your individual arguments because Bottle seems to have that well under control, but suffice it to say this is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier.

The Princess Bride is a pretty decent comedy flick, I'd say it's worth viewing. There are a number of memorable quotes.

The one I was referring to was when Montoya says to another character, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The Princess Bride: Most quotable movie... ever.

My personal favorite:

"There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world. It would be a shame to damage yours."

Hello. I am a mystic. Please explain to me why I cling to my religion for sentimental reasons, how my beliefs are responsible for atrocities, or why I would want you to be tentative in discussing my beliefs.

I might point out that my opinions would also have had me burnt at the stake in times past, so forgive me if I do not show any sympathy for your imagined persecution at the hands of theists.

woot! mystics are awesome! . . .. alliance against those dmn theists?

I'm an atheist, and I hate that people automatically assume I hate Christians. Most of my friends are Christians. I'm fine with that. What I have a problem with is people who shove religion in my face, or look down on me because I haven't been "saved."

I look down on you, not because you haven't being saved but because your a Newbie.

Nah mate I don't look down on you at least not yet :wink:

The Princess Bride: Most quotable movie... ever.

My personal favorite:

"There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world. It would be a shame to damage yours."
I attend the Society For Neuroscience meeting each year, and the first time I went it was being held in the DC convention center. As I stepped onto the landing and looked down onto the poster hall, filled with a seething mass of scientists and researchers, I fully expected Wallace Shawn to lean over my shoulder and whisper,

"Do you hear that, Highness? Those are the shrieking eels..."

Religion is the polar oposite of reason, those who are perceptive enough to use reason in their every day lives and yet still cling to religion cannot be being entirely honest with themselves.

(snipped for brevity)

I'm curious though... How is that bolded line any different, ethically, from a believer saying that atheists are in denial of God's existence?

Now this is just dishonest.

Peep, you know quite well that you didn't simply suggest that theists might be a little smarter than atheists think they are. You stated, flat out, that theists can understand atheists but atheists can't understand theists. You made a blanket statement about atheists that is both insulting and arrogant.

Don't pretend like you're oh-so-shocked that atheists dared to respond to your insult. You know precisely how you respond when atheists say shit like that about you, so it's really not convincing for you to feign innocence at this point.

Or, to put it another way:

If you actually understood atheists, or people for that matter, then you'd have known precisely why and how your remarks were offensive. If you're claiming that the response you got is "interesting" to you, then that suggests you were not completely aware that you were going to get exactly that response, which means that there's a pretty giant gap in your understanding of atheists.

Alternatively, if you did understand atheists as well as you claim, then you knew exactly what response you were going to get, and you did it anyway, thereby intentionally provoking the response that you got.


Okay then lets take a little looksee at my post that got all of these cages rattled umm.

'Atheists can never understand our POV, to them it seem unreasonable, we though have the capacity to understand theirs, even if we reject out of hand some of their belifes.

*shrug* Just one of them things.'


So what is so rude about these words then?

I see them as no more than the truth of the matter, so is it rude now to point out truth, did I actualy insult anybody with these words?

Lets delve into them a bit more pick them apart.

'Athiests can never understand our POV' Precisly because it is unreasonable, to belive in God, it defies reason, unless you have the mindset where you can defiy ratinality and belive the unreasonble then of course you cannot understand the type of mind that would do such a thing.

'we though have the capacity to understand theirs.'

Because we are all capable of using our reasoning skills'

GoG you did it so much better than me, I take my hat off good sir.

I attend the Society For Neuroscience meeting each year, and the first time I went it was being held in the DC convention center. As I stepped onto the landing and looked down onto the poster hall, filled with a seething mass of scientists and researchers, I fully expected Wallace Shawn to lean over my shoulder and whisper,

"Do you hear that, Highness? Those are the shrieking eels..."

ROTFL:p