NationStates Jolt Archive

So guys whats your favorite thing about capitalism? There are far too many perks to name in just one post, but my favorite thing is the ability to compete for higher wages and move up in society.

The same thing that is one of my least favorite things: choice. I fail to see the sense in having many multiple companies producing the same product and competing with one another to sell it when there is no measurable difference between the companies' products. The only thing separating them, then, becomes advertising and gimmickry ("we're greener", and so forth).

I like having options, but only when those options are legitimate.

Sam here. And don't forget about oppressing the workers. Thats very important, and the most fun. Nothing like asing a man to work overtime for barely and extra money, then foreclosing on his house anyway.

Choice. In my opinion, you can't have too much choice, and Capitalism provides just that.

slacking off at work...and if alcohol is inherently capitalist I want that too please

the ability to compete for higher wages

there is another economic system that just gives me loads of money for practically nothing!?!?!

don't forget about oppressing the workers.

I'm more of the exploiting type, oppressing is for 14th century knights who don't have 24 carrot gold handkerchiefs :p

Choice. In my opinion, you can't have too much choice, and Capitalism provides just that.

have you any idea how long it takes me to pick out what sweets I want in the corner shop! (I ban myself from penny sweets)

Sam here. And don't forget about oppressing the workers. Thats very important, and the most fun. Nothing like asing a man to work overtime for barely and extra money, then foreclosing on his house anyway.
Oh, I see, you're one of THOSE people, the kind who thought the Gulag wasn't "Good enough". Well I'll tell you, you bourgeois oppressor, I'm gonna send you STRAIGHT back to the alleyway you spawned from so I can opress the workers MYSELF!:D

Out of curiosity, what's the point of this thread?

Out of curiosity, what's the point of this thread?

so I'm the only one pondering what AP will put?

It would seem the broad assortment of alcoholic beverages bespeaks many positive things about said system.

there is another economic system that just gives me loads of money for practically nothing!?!?!

Yes, that's the job description for Soviet Communist party leader, you can't miss their building, there's a massive breadline outside of it.

so I'm the only one pondering what AP will put?

Me too...

have you any idea how long it takes me to pick out what sweets I want in the corner shop! (I ban myself from penny sweets)
I'm the kind of person who experiments until he finds three brands he likes, then picks whichever of those is cheapest.:p

Sam here. And don't forget about oppressing the workers. Thats very important, and the most fun. Nothing like asing a man to work overtime for barely and extra money, then foreclosing on his house anyway.
Im not very familiar with asing people, but you must be mistaken.

Nothing like assigning a man a job he has no choice on, then shooting him when he complains about it.

The same thing that is one of my least favorite things: choice. I fail to see the sense in having many multiple companies producing the same product and competing with one another to sell it when there is no measurable difference between the companies' products. The only thing separating them, then, becomes advertising and gimmickry ("we're greener", and so forth).

I like having options, but only when those options are legitimate.

It drives price down.

If the products themselves are no different from one another, then the prices will drop as each vendor tries to get you to buy their brand.

Im not very familiar with asing people, but you must be mistaken.

Nothing like assigning a man a job he has no choice on, then shooting him when he complains about it.

I meant asking.

Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade

Did I say Free Trade?

Im not very familiar with asing people, but you must be mistaken.

Nothing like assigning a man a job he has no choice on, then shooting him when he complains about it.

Three cheers for Communism everyone!:tongue:

As a bystander who witness how other people doesn't get happier in proportion to their accumulated wealth.

Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade Free Trade

Did I say Free Trade?

You forgot free trade.:wink:

What's the best thing about Capitalism?

It isn't communism.

It would seem the broad assortment of alcoholic beverages bespeaks many positive things about said system.

thats why those friendly Russians are booming under the new system :)

Yes, that's the job description for Soviet Communist party leader, you can't miss their building, there's a massive breadline outside of it.

you won't mind if I put fabulous pictures of me everywhere will you?

Me too...

no doubt he will come out of the closet as Dick Cheney

Choice. In my opinion, you can't have too much choice, and Capitalism provides just that.

Capitalism can give rise to monopolies though - that would limit choice in the end.

I like the fact that once you get to a particular level of wealth, you can get even richer without making any more effort. Unfortunately, I'm not there yet.

I'm the kind of person who experiments until he finds three brands he likes, then picks whichever of those is cheapest.:p

but I want them all :(

If the products themselves are no different from one another, then the prices will drop as each vendor tries to get you to buy their brand.

only that doesn't happen

Did I say Free Trade?

whats all this commie talk I'm hearing about free stuff?!!

Capitalism can give rise to monopolies though - that would limit choice in the end.

I like the fact that once you get to a particular level of wealth, you can get even richer without making any more effort. Unfortunately, I'm not there yet.

You see, I've never understood a monopoly. Couldn't someone just start a company in whatever field the monopoly was in and break the monopoly?:confused:

but I want them all :(

Then I must teach you an ancient art... The art of being picky!:tongue:

Capitalism can give rise to monopolies though - that would limit choice in the end.
The difference between a private monopoly and a state monopoly is that a private monopoly can be brought down via the marketplace and a state one cannot.

only that doesn't happen

Only it actually does; airlines, for example, automobiles is another, there's two I thought off the top of my head.

You see, I've never understood a monopoly. Couldn't someone just start a company in whatever field the monopoly was in and break the monopoly?:confused:

not if the monopoly lowers their prices in your area to put you out of business

not if the monopoly lowers their prices in your area to put you out of business

Which is why you have investors and loans so you can get set up and get into the market before that happens.

You see, I've never understood a monopoly. Couldn't someone just start a company in whatever field the monopoly was in and break the monopoly?:confused:

Unless the new start-up company is bought up by the other company who has the monopoly.
But I do like capitalism for it's choice of many different products, even if they can sometimes be the same thing...

EDIT: someone beat me to it.

Playing Monopoly. Communism has nothing that can beat that.

my favorite thing is the ability to compete for higher wages and move up in society.

all non-egalitarian societies that have ever existed have this. well, not in terms of wages, but definitely in terms of moving up the hierarchy.

anyways, my favorite is the crushing of conservative values - if only for the head asploding of the conservatives who naively champion capitalism

not if the monopoly lowers their prices in your area to put you out of business
So... In order to stop a complete monopoly, you'd have to have either very loyal customers, or a new way of making things. Right?
Unless the new start-up company is bought up by the other company who has the monopoly.
But I do like capitalism for it's choice of many different products, even if they can sometimes be the same thing...

EDIT: someone beat me to it.
Then don't go IPO immediately.

Which is why you have investors and loans so you can get set up and get into the market before that happens.

yea, I'm sure doing no business or losing an ass load of money will keep investors coming to give you money. It really doesn't work out for you if the monopoly can easily out price you. How long do you think you can not pay off your loans, or make no money for? Usually businesses start at a loss for 1-5ish years, but that's without having to compete with a monopoly, you would get about no business from me if I could buy the same product at half price of what you can sell it to me.

Not to mention the fact that the monopoly has investors and definitely a better standing with the banks, so I think they'd easily outspend you, besides, they should be able to use profits form other regions to recoup any losses from lowering prices where you start your business, and be able to continue doing so indefinitely.

The difference between a private monopoly and a state monopoly is that a private monopoly can be brought down via the marketplace and a state one cannot.

The problem with a large monopoly is that they become the marketplace, and can influence the market to the extent that it becomes less free.

You see, I've never understood a monopoly. Couldn't someone just start a company in whatever field the monopoly was in and break the monopoly?:confused:

When you have a sufficiently large share of a sector, you are also a large share of all the businesses that depend on you to survive. Your share of their business vs their share of yours means you hold all the power in the relationship. In the event of a new player trying to break the market, they will not have the economies of scale that allow the monopoly to buy cheaply, and the the dependent businesses will favour the monopoly because that's where most of their business is.

It can happen obviously, but it's not easy unless the monopoly has become complacent and arrogant (I'm thinking Virgin Airways breaking the British Airways monopoly as an example)

So... In order to stop a complete monopoly, you'd have to have either very loyal customers, or a new way of making things. Right?

Then don't go IPO immediately.

yup, innovation is a good way, if you can offer something better, that the other guy doesn't have, you might stay on. Or some people like to shop local, though I don't think that holds out in the long run.

patent laws ftw

Choice. In my opinion, you can't have too much choice, and Capitalism provides just that.

Yes, I'm all for choices. The more options you have, the better off you are. I'm not just talking about consumer goods, I'm talking about opportunities.

Only it actually does; airlines, for example, automobiles is another, there's two I thought off the top of my head.

but the example is candy which is as you will see from your local store priced at typically 45p for standard bar size and £1.20 for large blocks

So... In order to stop a complete monopoly, you'd have to have either very loyal customers, or a new way of making things. Right?

your forgetting of course that a monopoly can always out price just from being a dick

for instance:

Farmer: why I av' er me some wheat and you can av it for £40
Monopoly: I will give you £20 if you don't like it you can piss off and see who will buy your food then
Farmer: *goes home and reduces income because who else can he sell all his produce to?*

course Tesco does this anyway but oh well

but the example is candy which is as you will see from your local store priced at typically 45p for standard bar size and £1.20 for large blocks



your forgetting of course that a monopoly can always out price just from being a dick

for instance:

Farmer: why I av' er me some wheat and you can av it for £40
Monopoly: I will give you £20 if you don't like it you can piss off and see who will buy your food then
Farmer: *goes home and reduces income because who else can he sell all his produce to?*

course Tesco does this anyway but oh well
*sells it to local stores/farmers market*

So guys whats your favorite thing about capitalism? There are far too many perks to name in just one post, but my favorite thing is the ability to compete for higher wages and move up in society.

My favorite thing is the illusion that this is true.

*sells it to local stores/farmers market*

And if the local stores or farmers market were driven out of business last year by a monopoly that was willing to sell at a loss?

no doubt he will come out of the closet as Dick Cheney

I'd die laughing.

*sells it to local stores/farmers market*

*fails to break into the highly territorial local market*

I'd die laughing.

it would certainly raise some questions about the whole lining up on a wall and opening fire...

Pitting one greedy person against another to provide a superior product for the greater good of mankind. :)

In other words, choice. :)

*fails to break into the highly territorial local market*



it would certainly raise some questions about the whole lining up on a wall and opening fire...

It would answer them actually.

It drives price down.

If the products themselves are no different from one another, then the prices will drop as each vendor tries to get you to buy their brand.

Ah yes. And how do they drop their prices? Before industrial regulation, there was sub-standard quality control or safety practices, consumers died needlessly. After regulation, you drop prices by finding a workforce to produce your wholesale goods as cheaply as possible, even if it means employing people offshore or illegals in your country.

None of the things that capitalism does well ever happens in a vacuum.

I wondered if the price of oil's part in the increase of transportation costs meant that shipping overseas would eventually get so expensive that jobs would come back. Then I laughed my ass off. The price of oil would have to rise an order of magnitude to make cheap foreign labor more expensive than paying someone a living wage here.

but the example is candy which is as you will see from your local store priced at typically 45p for standard bar size and £1.20 for large blocks

Branding is very important to sweets. Prices aren't at the margin but that's because the products are diverse. Even if Galaxy costs more than Dairy Milk people will still buy Galaxy because the products have enough diversity to encourage people to buy the product they prefer. If you look at the market for products where there is little horizontal differentiation producers will sell very close to the marginal cost.

Facebook and NationStates General.

Advertising money supports lots of things I would never pay for myself.

My favourite thing about capitalism are company drinks tabs :)

Advertising money supports lots of things I would never pay for myself.

haha, hell yeah

Even if Galaxy costs more than Dairy Milk people will still buy Galaxy because the products have enough diversity to encourage people to buy the product they prefer.

but Galaxy does not cost more and £1.20 is the standard cost (sneaky shopkeepers aside)

but look the law is now getting involved:

http://www.newser.com/story/19531.html
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-02-13-chocolate_N.htm

the same has gone for the record industry, a multitude of corporations will eventually see eye to eye on how much products should cost and it becomes static

My favourite thing about capitalism are company drinks tabs :)

:eek: explain!

I can't think of anything in particular, except that it has brought down costs in the developed countries by utilising modern shipping systems that allow you to make goods using slave labour in the third world then shipping the produce back to the west cheaply and quickly... In the old days it took much longer.

I have little respect for the system though. Any system that values an anarchic profit driven free for all over all else has lost the plot entirely.

I personally like that I only need to carry around a wallet rather than a weapon to make sure I get treated like a person.

Most people are never nicer than when you have something they want. (At least until your back is turned)

EDIT: Being a relatively tall white male helps with that too, admittedly.

I personally like that I only need to carry around a wallet rather than a weapon to make sure I get treated like a person.

Vittos!

Its ability to efficiently raise capital and produce a high surplus of goods.

I personally like that I only need to carry around a wallet rather than a weapon to make sure I get treated like a person.

Most people are never nicer than when you have something they want. (At least until your back is turned)

EDIT: Being a relatively tall white male helps with that too, admittedly.

Mr. City sacker, I see that you are back. Your cities await you sire.

Money, lots and lots of Money, for me.

Its ability to efficiently raise capital and produce a high surplus of goods.

Lolz @ international liquidity crisis caused by capitalist market forces & massive shortages of food and raw materials caused by developing capitalist economies.

I'm guessing you were being ironic?

Lolz @ international liquidity crisis caused by capitalist market forces & massive shortages of food and raw materials caused by developing capitalist economies.

I'm guessing you were being ironic?

No, it's caused by governments implementing shitty economic policies allowing these market forces to fuck everyone over.

No, it's caused by governments implementing shitty economic policies allowing these market forces to fuck everyone over.

It's not a government's fault that capitalism has done this! It's funny how some people say "the market will regulate itself, leave it alone!" and then they scream "It's the government's fault for not regulating the market!" when the shit hits the fan.... And the governments end up bailing out the market.

I always thought a key requisite of capitalism was it allowed you the freedom to be fucked over by market forces at any time. If a government prevented that, I'm not sure you would be living in a capitalist society.

It's not a government's fault that capitalism has done this! It's funny how some people say "the market will regulate itself, leave it alone!" and then they scream "It's the government's fault for not regulating the market!" when the shit hits the fan.... And the governments end up bailing out the market.

I always thought a key requisite of capitalism was it allowed you the freedom to be fucked over by market forces at any time. If a government prevented that, I'm not sure you would be living in a capitalist society.

I see what the problem is, you seem to be operating under the assumption that capitalism = hardcore laissez faire libertarianism. Just out of curiosity, what do you describe yourself as economically?

I see what the problem is, you seem to be operating under the assumption that capitalism = hardcore laissez faire libertarianism. Just out of curiosity, what do you describe yourself as economically?

Poor! Or do you mean, what sort of economic policy do I consider fair?

You may be right, I'm not an expert on exact economic definitions. But it strikes me that most proponents of capitalism want less regulation, without necessarily being libertarians? Or maybe my libdar is off.

How would you describe capitalism then? As necessarily heavily regulated by governments?

How would you describe capitalism then? As necessarily heavily regulated by governments?

Well that's a toughie, capitalism doesn't really have an exact definition and it's heavily disputed as to what it really means. I can't be bothered to write out all my thoughts on it right now since it's a little late, but I can tell you that it's not inherently all about giving absolute freedom to business simply out of principle and regardless of the problems, like a lot of whiney Americans like to claim.

Well that's a toughie, capitalism doesn't really have an exact definition and it's heavily disputed as to what it really means. I can't be bothered to write out all my thoughts on it right now since it's a little late, but I can tell you that it's not inherently all about giving absolute freedom to business simply out of principle and regardless of the problems, like a lot of whiney Americans like to claim.

OK, that was an unfair question. Maybe I'll just go off and read some Marx!

In the meantime, Wiktionary provides this beautifully informative definition:
a socio-economic system based on private property rights, including the private ownership of resources or capital, with economic decisions made largely through the operation of a free market rather than by state control.

So we're both right! Hurrah! Time for bed.

My reason for supporting capitalism is it's fundamental flexibility and solidity.

Capitalism functions under virtually any governmental system, under virtually any level of governmental regulation/intrusion (pick the term you like), and does not care about trifles like type of currency or basis therof. It keeps working under extreme conditions and is very hard to fuck up (though it can be done - see modern Zimbabwe).

Vittos!

Hello, Soheran. How are you?


Mr. City sacker, I see that you are back. Your cities await you sire.

I do believe my days of city destruction are over due to a change in attitude.

The monocles and top hats.

Lottery.

Lol @ all the kids of petite-bourgeois parents circlejerking over bourgeois property. It's comforting however to know that the vast majority of toiling workers have no relation to this disgusting display of slavish support for bourgeois dictatorship.

Freedom=/=bourgeois freedom

You don't understand how society works, 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'rights' are never universal, but are always the freedom of the ruling class.

This is why in bourgeois society 'freedom' always translates into free trade, free enterprise, in short free exploitation of labor. Freedom is always the freedom of those in control, not those who toil.

Just as the bourgeois must break down national barriers, so must they commodify human beings into a resource.

Lol @ all the kids of petite-bourgeois parents circlejerking over bourgeois property. It's comforting however to know that the vast majority of toiling workers have no relation to this disgusting display of slavish support for bourgeois dictatorship.

Freedom=/=bourgeois freedom

You don't understand how society works, 'freedom', 'democracy' and 'rights' are never universal, but are always the freedom of the ruling class.

This is why in bourgeois society 'freedom' always translates into free trade, free enterprise, in short free exploitation of labor. Freedom is always the freedom of those in control, not those who toil.

Just as the bourgeois must break down national barriers, so must they commodify human beings into a resource.

Yet, that latter is the very symbol of Communism.

The communist governments have cared not at all for the individual, but only for the never-defined "people". To the communist government, a person is merely a cog in the machine - useful while it works, but ultimately replaceable and disposable. To the communist, human life, happiness and desires are nothing but grist for the mill.

Capitalism has the one thing that Communism can never give - hope for the future. Not some cloudcuckooland "worker's paradise" that only fools and idiots can believe in, but real hope, for progress and the enhancement of life, for ease of our burdens and freedom of choice and conscience.

I spoke before in jest, but I speak now in truth - Communism is evil, causing only harm and misery to all unfortunate enough to be ruled by it - and never with it.

My favourite thing about capitalism would probably be Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler.

I'd say my favorite thing is the money (even tho none of it is mine :( ), but the thought that I can actually make it mine is fun. My dreaming about making the money mine may actually prevent me from doing it, so I might be screwed.

Incessant advertisements.


...too bad ad block only works on the internet.

The fact that it fail so much an alternative was created.

bourgeois nonsense

There is no, nor should there be, irreconcilable contrast between the individual and the collective, between the interests of the individual person and the interests of the collective, There should be no such contrast, because collectivism, socialism, does not deny, but combines individual interests with the interests of the collective. Socialism cannot abstract itself from individual interests. Socialist society alone can most fully satisfy these personal interests. More than that; socialist society alone can firmly safeguard the interests of the individual.

In this sense there is no irreconcilable contrast between "individualism" and socialism. But can we deny the contrast between classes, between the propertied class, the capitalist class, and the toiling class, the proletarian class? On the one hand we have the propertied class which owns the banks, the factories, the mines, transport etc. These people see nothing but their own interests, their striving after profits. They do not submit to the will of the collective; they strive to subordinate every collective to their will.

On the other hand we have the class of the poor, the exploited Class, which owns neither factories nor works, nor banks, which is compelled to live by selling its labor power to the capitalists and which lacks the opportunity to satisfy its most elementary requirements. How can such opposite interests and strivings be reconciled? As far as I know, capitalism cannot succeed in finding the path of conciliation between these interests. And it is impossible, as experience has shown. Communist experience in fighting for socialism and this experience tells me that if a 'democratically' elected leader in a capitalist state makes a real attempt to satisfy the interests of the proletarian class at the expense of the capitalist class, the latter will put another leader in his place. The capitalists will say: Leaders come and leaders go, but we go on forever; if this or that leader does not protect our interests, we shall find another. What can the leader oppose to the will of the capitalist class?

Capitalism is the real 'collectivism' here.

The ability to get by simply by being smart with money and work every once and a while.

There is no, nor should there be, blah blah blah socialist dipshit:

Which is just a fancy way of saying that if everybody was a brainwashed socialist moron he'd happily submit his desires to the good of "the state".

In this sense there is continuing nonsense regarding imaginary class structures, ignoring the fact that what he's talking about hasn't been true for a century and a half

[QUOTE]On the other hand we have the standard lies about how capitalism supposedly works with no actual regard to reality.

Capitalism is the real 'collectivism' here.

Yet, you have stated a preference for collectivism..?

I do not appreciate my words being dismissed without argument. I doubt you do either.

in America, if things arnt going well at work, you get the union. In Soviet Russia, if things arnt going well at work, the union has gotten you!

seriously, the working man has it better off in a modern capitalist state.

also good is the competition. there are countless varieties of anything, like say, shampoo. Normal guy is like, whatever, a million bottles with different labels, same end result: clean hair. Sure. They are all the same, and there are talented people working against each other to make them, instead of uniting with one ubersoap. But each and every brand of any product, and any mini brand or flavor of those, is a commodity itself. by having a seemingly ridiculously redundant market, it is impossible for goods to cease changing hands. This and the fact that what might hurt one brand need not hurt the others, like a component shortage. if one company goes under, you are not out of luck.

of course, that component shortage part of my argument might be completely undermined by an oil shortage, as most everything needs it in some way or another these days, and it could cripple our economy, but thats not capitalism's fault. Not directly, at least.

snip
Subject: 1337phr33kia
Diagnosis: socially-dangerous element
Cure: death

So guys whats your favorite thing about capitalism? There are far too many perks to name in just one post, but my favorite thing is the ability to compete for higher wages and move up in society.

I'd have to say the fact that it doesn't work, unless furnished with a very good dose of socialism, and a few good-sized volumes of legislation and regulations.

I have two favourite things about Capitalism. Number one is the fact that it enables me to be alive; I would have probably been worked to death or starved to death under Communism by now, and number two is the fact that it pisses off Andaras.

...<snip several misquotes>I do not appreciate my words being dismissed without argument. I doubt you do either.

I assume you were misquoting to underline your point: that you don't consider the replies have addressed your argument. Nonetheless, please don't deliberately misquote other posters in a manner that could be construed as flaming.

Subject: 1337phr33kia
Diagnosis: socially-dangerous element
Cure: death

EDIT: Kat got it. Practice makes purrfect.

Its eventual obsolescence.

I personally like that I only need to carry around a wallet rather than a weapon to make sure I get treated like a person.

Most people are never nicer than when you have something they want. (At least until your back is turned)

EDIT: Being a relatively tall white male helps with that too, admittedly.Hey, where ya been?
*pounces*

I have two favourite things about Capitalism. Number one is the fact that it enables me to be alive; I would have probably been worked to death or starved to death under Communism by now, and number two is the fact that it pisses off Andaras.
That's a good one. I like the counterpoint that the success of Capitalism provides to the failure of Communism. And I like to read the rants that Andaras embarks upon.

You can't have a free nation without a free-market imo... If the government owns your property, you have no rights. Capitalism allows people to control their own property in order to achieve the ends they desire (provided it's nothing illegal).

There can NEVER be too much choice... Capitalism is great for that.... The more choice, the less cost.. Pure and simple.

If the government owns your property, you have no rights.

If the government "owns your property", it isn't yours anymore.

Capitalism allows people to control their own property in order to achieve the ends they desire (provided it's nothing illegal).

Strange--so does socialism.

There can NEVER be too much choice...

What about the choice to not be presented with too many choices... to, rather than having to deal with the various information costs involved in continually searching for the best bargain, be able to trust that goods are of a certain reasonable quality and price?

There is nothing good about it. Can't think of anything.

There is nothing good about it. Can't think of anything.

Off to the Gulag with you then, lol

My favorite thing is probably the amount of freedom it gives you.

Freedom you wouldn't get with communism. I don't want the same car as my neighbor.

I'd have to say the fact that it doesn't work, unless furnished with a very good dose of socialism, and a few good-sized volumes of legislation and regulations.
And why does it now work? Legislation and regulations, I don't want the government telling me what to do, stop forcing your beliefs on me.

Subject: 1337phr33kia
Diagnosis: socially-dangerous element
Cure: death
Subject: Andaras
Diagnosis: Disillusionment about the greatness of Marxism, Soviet Union, socially dangerous
Cure: All expenses paid trip to Siberia, to experience Communism at its best

I assume you were misquoting to underline your point: that you don't consider the replies have addressed your argument. Nonetheless, please don't deliberately misquote other posters in a manner that could be construed as flaming.



EDIT: Kat got it. Practice makes purrfect.

Certainly.

Subject: Andaras
Diagnosis: Disillusionment about the greatness of Marxism, Soviet Union, socially dangerous
Cure: All expenses paid trip to Siberia, to experience Communism at its best

Seconded!

if we would live in a communist state,we would probably get bad quality salt licorice

And why does it now work? Legislation and regulations, I don't want the government telling me what to do, stop forcing your beliefs on me.

Because it's destructive without regulation and legislation.
It's been tried and it failed miserably.

It's been tried

Where has it been tried?

Movies

Where has it been tried?

Back before the great depression. it worked, despite being in a very turbulent time. Of course, FDR had a bit of an inferiority complex, and decided he could make himself feel better if he started government handouts so he could prolong the Great Depression. Wasn't he a great guy?

Back before the great depression. it worked, despite being in a very turbulent time. Of course, FDR had a bit of an inferiority complex, and decided he could make himself feel better if he started government handouts so he could prolong the Great Depression. Wasn't he a great guy?

As much as I don't like what FDR did, he did help the US economy recover from the Great Depression by giving people confidence, as well as giving the deflated US economy a cash injection. The only prolonging that he did of the Great Depression was by not moving quickly enough (his advisors wanted him to borrow more to help boost the economy, however, FDR wanted to keep the books balanced and that led to the 1937 recession).

However, those sort of situations were the only time that Keynesian economics ever worked was getting out of a deflationary Depression. The pity was that they didn't ditch it after World War II in nations not hurt by the war.

Top hats,decent suits ,good beards and Cigars

if we would live in a communist state,we would probably get bad quality salt licorice

Ice cream and vodka always were of good quality in the Soviet Union, though.

However, those sort of situations were the only time that Keynesian economics ever worked was getting out of a deflationary Depression. The pity was that they didn't ditch it after World War II in nations not hurt by the war.How many depressions were prevented by Keynesian economics?

Top hats,decent suits ,good beards and Cigars

and don't forget about pretty designer clothes for women to wear.

How many depressions were prevented by Keynesian economics?

Too few.

Because it's destructive without regulation and legislation.
It's been tried and it failed miserably.
Regulation and legislation are destructive to a free market and a free people, now where has it been tried and failed? Whats been tried and failed is communism.

There is nothing good about it. Can't think of anything.
What a convincing argument.:hail:

Subject: Andaras
Diagnosis: Disillusionment about the greatness of Marxism, Soviet Union, socially dangerous
Cure: All expenses paid trip to Siberia, to experience Communism at its best

He's suffering disillusionment about the greatness of Marxism? So, he did have the illusion that Marxism was great, and now he doesn't? But you still want to put him through (what you imagine to be) it in order to show him the truth about it? So, presumably, that truth is different to what he imagines... and since he no longer has the illusion that it (Marxism) is great... you're hoping to prove to him that it is... Yeah, that snappy comeback was a bit fail-heavy, boyo! Try using the right words in the next smackdown, so that you don't run the risk of saying exactly the opposite of what you intended.

Anyhoo, I'm somewhat surprised to have just read that the cigars and beards are the best thing about capitalism. Raul's reforms must have moved more quickly than I'd expected!

I am trying to settle on a favourite aspect of capitalism. Beyond oh so delightful wordplay with the addition of an R, I'm getting stuck on, 'the creeping inevitability of revolution'. I suppose it has inadvertently inspired some decent art in various genres, too. Ah, decisions, yes, I suck when it comes to choice.

Regulation and legislation are destructive to a free market and a free people, now where has it been tried and failed? Whats been tried and failed is communism.

No. The closest thing to a perfectly free market we've tried has been the state of Laissez-Faire Capitalism (~1870 - 1934). It failed due to inherent instability; roughly, a major depression every twenty years or so, and the formation of trusta and monopolies that eliminated competition.

Modern, moderated Capitalism is a far cry from this, and far more stable.

Like how a three legged cow is more stable than a two legged cow.

Edit: Aw, man, I should not have gone for cows. In before, "you have two cows..."

What's your favorite thing about capitalism?

Probably the decentralisation and the adaptiveness.

Another reason why I love capitalism is because socialists/commies get on my nerves and I love to spite them... So many socialists/communists use any damn opportunity to stand on their soap boxes and spout their bullshit. As a teaching assistant, I love failing the occasional wacko commie that comes through my class... The professor I work for loves it too (even though he's actually a liberal)...

My boss: "Write a paper discussing the Marian Reforms and the effect they had on the Roman Legions.

Stupid Commie's paper: "The Marian Reforms made it so the land owning elite never had to fight wars anymore. Instead, these so-called "reforms" forced the poor to fight for the Legions with false promises of land after their term of service. Blah blah blah blah blah, rich people suck, go Marx, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..." Five pages later... "...Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. The end."

It puts a giant grin on my face to put a giant "F" on those papers... Being an employee at the University of Alabama means I maintain a safe distance between myself and the more radical student bodies of America. When I finally get my Ph.D, I will be the bane of Marxist thought at which ever University I end up working for.

That's right, I'm the Man and I'm keeping you hippies down.

No. The closest thing to a perfectly free market we've tried has been the state of Laissez-Faire Capitalism (~1870 - 1934). It failed due to inherent instability; roughly, a major depression every twenty years or so, and the formation of trusta and monopolies that eliminated competition.

Modern, moderated Capitalism is a far cry from this, and far more stable.
I thought Cabra was referring to socialist legislation.

Too few.Perhaps. How many depressions have we experienced in the 70-odd years since the introduction of Keynesian economics? How many did we experience in the 70-odd years before the introduction of Keynesian economics?

Perhaps. How many depressions have we experienced in the 70-odd years since the introduction of Keynesian economics? How many did we experience in the 70-odd years before the introduction of Keynesian economics?
You see, that's the problem with history. A single change, and you can't tell what the difference can be. What if we had stayed with the old system of economics? Would we have grown faster, with shorter, but a bit more regular depressions? Can you tell me that?

You see, that's the problem with history. A single change, and you can't tell what the difference can be. What if we had stayed with the old system of economics? Would we have grown faster, with shorter, but a bit more regular depressions? Can you tell me that?

We would not have been able to; Keynesian economic policies would have been necessary to rebuild in Europe after World War II - all the private sector there was blown to bits thanks to Herr Hitler.

You see, that's the problem with history. A single change, and you can't tell what the difference can be. What if we had stayed with the old system of economics? Would we have grown faster, with shorter, but a bit more regular depressions? Can you tell me that?True, there are other factors to consider, but nonetheless the economy has been more stable since the introduction of Keynesian economics than before it, which was the purpose of said introduction in the first place.

I love the fact that anytime, anywhere in the U.S. that I can walk into any convenience store, supermarket, etc. and purchase a package of peanut butter cups and think nothing of the cost.

I love the fact that anytime, anywhere in the U.S. that I can walk into any convenience store, supermarket, etc. and purchase a package of peanut butter cups and think nothing of the cost.

Not with the increasing price of everything. Soon, even the price of mud will have you double checking your increasingly flat wallet. :p

Not with the increasing price of everything. Soon, even the price of mud will have you double checking your increasingly flat wallet. :p

I maintain sizeable stockpiles of mud in easily mixable component form. *nod*

My favorite thing about capitalism is that it respects the right of the individual to associate, or not associate, with others on the basis of mutual consent. It allows for self-determination, and does not place one's destiny in the hands of the state. It also follows principles of justice, and allows for true respect and benevolence among individuals.

The only thing I love about capitalism is the quality of goods capitalism provides. I only need one, expensive, good bicycle, not a thousand crappy ones that fall apart after one use. Other than that, it's pretty much useless. It's sort of like the video game console war; Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo were selling in different methods. In the end, you get moderately to super expensive machines that play games. All three fail quite a bit in the technical sense, with Microsoft owning in that.

Communism = cheap, mass-produced crappy goods that are good for one or two uses
Capitalism = expensive, shortage of usually high-quality goods that are good for a long time
Socialism = expensive, mass-produced crappy goods that are good for one or two uses[/blegh not really I'm ranting about something]

Andaras doesn't like it.

I like the fact that some people seem to idolize capitalism and get all riled up about 'em damn commies. Furthermore they associate everything, that they deem good or even mildly pleasant, with capitalism. Considering that not even half of these people truly understand economical theories it seems that the propaganda has been fairly efficent. It is not the -isms that make our world go around, it is the people.

The only thing I love about capitalism is the quality of goods capitalism provides. I only need one, expensive, good bicycle, not a thousand crappy ones that fall apart after one use. Other than that, it's pretty much useless. It's sort of like the video game console war; Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo were selling in different methods. In the end, you get moderately to super expensive machines that play games. All three fail quite a bit in the technical sense, with Microsoft owning in that.

Communism = cheap, mass-produced crappy goods that are good for one or two uses
Capitalism = expensive, shortage of usually high-quality goods that are good for a long time
Socialism = expensive, mass-produced crappy goods that are good for one or two uses[/blegh not really I'm ranting about something]

Actually capitalism provides a surfeit of cheap, shoddily made goods. Just take a look around any £1 shop, or computer store that sells generic components.

Meanwhile the Soviet Union did have some excellent high quality goods, particularly in fields such as optics (my family ran a photographic studio in the UK, as used Soviet gear, particularly lenses, due to the reliability and good optical quality) and also in areas like watches and drawing equipment. Like the West, it mass produced cheap crap for the commoners and high quality goods for the elite.

Communism is just a sop to the ego of powerless people, Capitalism is just grubbing round for some extra cash. The need to organise society to actually produce something meaningful is the same in any world. To do that, you need baubles to offer your managers to keep them loyal, and cheap mass produced stuff to keep your workers reasonably content. Sops to the ego and money grabbing are both distractions, as far as achieving anything meaningful is concerned.

Pfft, managers schmanagers! Baubles to the lot of 'em.

I consider Capitalism something that i have to tolerate because it cant be stopped...Like Gravity or the Weather...

It works too well. Society isn't mentally equipped to deal with it.

The same thing that is one of my least favorite things: choice. I fail to see the sense in having many multiple companies producing the same product and competing with one another to sell it when there is no measurable difference between the companies' products. The only thing separating them, then, becomes advertising and gimmickry ("we're greener", and so forth).

I like having options, but only when those options are legitimate.

Well that type of market you described is one of the best market systems you can have in the world (IMO before I get told off for grandstanding again). Of course I too like choice and that is why with Capitalism we will get choice as companies seek to gain market share they will differentiate their product, now some may be more down to marketing (can anyone say Diet Water) but there will be a lot more that have true differentiation and is one of the things I like about Capitalism, that and the fact that companies will seek to be more efficient.

I maintain sizeable stockpiles of mud in easily mixable component form. *nod*

So your the reason why the price of mud has increased, your holding back supply, have you been speaking to our OPEC friends? again :)

My favourite things about capitalism?

Taxing profits. Then redistributing it.

So guys whats your favorite thing about capitalism? There are far too many perks to name in just one post, but my favorite thing is the ability to compete for higher wages and move up in society.

It provides an upper class of wealthy people to make fun of and hate.

My favourite things about capitalism?

Taxing profits. Then redistributing it.

This. Definitely this. I posted before reading it.

My favourite things about capitalism?

Taxing profits. Then redistributing it.

So your favorite thing about capitalism is that it allows men and women of ability to be just free and productive enough that you can enslave them partially?

Actually capitalism provides a surfeit of cheap, shoddily made goods. Just take a look around any £1 shop, or computer store that sells generic components.

Define "surfeit" in this context objectively, and not in terms of what you happen to like or not like.

The reason that there are cheap goods of mediocre quality is because people pay for them.

There are also more expensive and better made goods, because there are people who pay for them too.

If there weren't any cheap goods, many people would complain about the high prices of goods. If there weren't any expensive goods, many people would complain about the inability to find quality goods.

What capitalism provides is the ability of businesses to occupy market niches, so that people can weigh quality versus price, and find something that suits their needs in their personal circumstances.

So your favorite thing about capitalism is that it allows men and women of ability to be just free and productive enough that you can enslave them partially?

Too free means justice and fairness are diminished.

Too bound means inovation and incentive are diminished.

The fun part of politics in a capitalist liberal democracy is getting the formula right so that the voters are happy.

not a damd thing about capitolism itself, nor about any other economic/idiology for that matter either, least of all their illusions and deceptions being prioritized ahead of the real effects of real policies on real people, places and things.

=^^=
.../\...

Best thing for me is competition. Anyone noticed that anything run by the government is inefficient and often choked with bureaucracy? (e.g. public health system, social security, DMV). Or that monopolies result in treating customers like crap (the price of diamonds anyone?) When there's real competition business have to fight each other, which means they have to give us better stuff at a competitive price.

Unfortunately competition doesn't always exist, as the price of oil illustrates due to the co-operation of oil companies so that they all make more money. As capitalists we have to do everything we can to promote competition! It's what the system's built on!

Best thing for me is competition. Anyone noticed that anything run by the government is inefficient and often choked with bureaucracy? (e.g. public health system, social security, DMV). Or that monopolies result in treating customers like crap (the price of diamonds anyone?) When there's real competition business have to fight each other, which means they have to give us better stuff at a competitive price.

Unfortunately competition doesn't always exist, as the price of oil illustrates due to the co-operation of oil companies so that they all make more money. As capitalists we have to do everything we can to promote competition! It's what the system's built on!

Sorry to disappoint you but western countries with public health systems have better health outcomes on lower health expenditure than does the US.

Feel free to have a poor performing, inequitable, costly health system. You're the one paying for it. (If you can afford it, that is.)

So guys whats your favorite thing about capitalism? There are far too many perks to name in just one post, but my favorite thing is the ability to compete for higher wages and move up in society.

I love the efficient distribution of scarce resources and the innovation. In other words it is cool how we minimize famines and come up with cures for diseases and new technology.

Sorry to disappoint you but western countries with public health systems have better health outcomes on lower health expenditure than does the US.

Feel free to have a poor performing, inequitable, costly health system. You're the one paying for it. (If you can afford it, that is.)

The problem with the US health system is more complex than merely a public-vs.-private type of argument, a significant portion is, after all, paid for by the government in the form of Medicare and Medicaid.

Rather, it's hybridized public and privately funded, in the private sector, the consumer is usually not the purchaser, and the costs of indigent care are highly localized, unlike a public system where the costs are dispersed.

That, plus the costs of lifestyle problems, and the ability of those with lifestyle problems to milk the system in a way that you cannot in most public systems all build up to the fact that the US healthcare system is a total effin' mess. It needs to be entirely restructured, and I think that because it's so large and so heavily backed by the government that a market restructuring cannot occur. As such, a government restructuring is the only plausible course of action.

that it works

Its texture. Ohhhhh, wiggly.

So your favorite thing about capitalism is that it allows men and women of ability to be just free and productive enough that you can enslave them partially?

"Enslave"? Come on.