NationStates Jolt Archive

There are many ways to view the concept of diety, I personaly find much fault in the Christian concept, hence I ain't no Christian.

Which concept is the best one?

Come on now, don't be shy, leave your gloves at the door!:D

I've actually always liked the Greek Gods, I suppose the Norse Gods are similar - I prefer Gods with as many emotions and faults as my own.

My favourite creation story, though, is the Silmarillion, the song of creation is beautifully described, especially the discord of Melkor, a symphony.

There are many ways to view the concept of diety, I personaly find much fault in the Christian concept, hence I ain't no Christian.

Which concept is the best one?

Come on now, don't be shy, leave your gloves at the door!:D

The only good God is a dead God. And resurrecting counts as living!:p

I've actually always liked the Greek Gods, I suppose the Norse Gods are similar - I prefer Gods with as many emotions and faults as my own.

My favourite creation story, though, is the Silmarillion, the song of creation is beautifully described, especially the discord of Melkor, a symphony.

Yeah I too have always had a soft spot for the Norse Gods.

Interesting! I'm actually a Christian seminary student of a major denomination, which means I'm in school and training to become a member of the clergy. I'm open for any questions if you want. Feel free to ask whatever you like!

There are many ways to view the concept of deity, I personally find much fault in the Christian concept, hence I ain't no Christian.

Which concept is the best one?

Come on now, don't be shy, leave your gloves at the door!:D

I'm not dogmatic about religion. I think that if it works for you then go with it. I don't take the view that "all paths are equally valid". I think that pure/extreme monotheism is wrong in it's understanding of the universe, but if someone is happy worshipping in that way then I wouldn't dream of making them do otherwise.

Amongst polytheistic faiths, I think there are some cases where two different pantheons may in fact share some gods under different names, but I don't think this is universally true, nor nearly as common as some think. I.e. there are some good reasons to think that Zeus and Jupiter may be the same actual god. But the linking of Horus and Apollo is, in my opinion, just wishful thinking on the part of politicians, priests and confused worshippers.

For me, Egyptian religion is the only way to go, but I have a good deal of respect for the Hellenic gods too.

Jesus Christ is my God

Jesus Christ is my God

Interesting - you worship the Son, but not the Father?

How do you start your own thread?

Interesting - you worship the Son, but not the Father?

Oh no I worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit I just put Jesus because I thought that is what most people would understand

I've actually always liked the Greek Gods, I suppose the Norse Gods are similar - I prefer Gods with as many emotions and faults as my own.

My favourite creation story, though, is the Silmarillion, the song of creation is beautifully described, especially the discord of Melkor, a symphony.

Though I tend to actually venerate the Hellenic gods, I have a soft spot for the Celtic gods (in their various forms)myself, but generally for similar reasons. Though unfortunatly much less is known about the myths, firstly because although many of the myths had similar themes there was dramatic regional variability, also because they were often never written down and those that were, were written by Christian monks, who tended to modify the tales to fit more with the Christian worldview

Dododecapod are you a christian?

Interesting! I'm actually a Christian seminary student of a major denomination, which means I'm in school and training to become a member of the clergy. I'm open for any questions if you want. Feel free to ask whatever you like!

Ohhhh I have many, many question, but lets start with this one.

What does this mean?

'So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.'

Everyone knows that a good god is the one that doesn't exist. World + God(s) = Bad.

I can't see why the Hellenic gods are all that great - they're violent, sex-obsessed lunatics who think they can have anyone they want. If they were human, they'd probably be thrown in jail. Older isn't necessarily better. The Egyptians had thousands of gods, each with a different cult, so at least you had a nice selection to pick from. The Norse were just football hooligans who at least had more self control that the Hellenics, who wouldn't pause to think about whether chasing nymphs all day really was a good choice of entertainment.

I did find the creation story in the Silmarillion to be particularly good, but not good enough to worship.

If I were to worship any particular god, I suppose Cthulhu would be an excellent choice, especially due to Cthulhu's wager - either he doesn't exist, and there's no harm done, or he exists, and you, as a worshipper, are killed instantly, as opposed to the eternity of torture which Cthulhu will bring upon all who do not worship him. Then again, Pastafarianism is looking pretty good nowadays...

I find the God of the Bible to be the most interesting.

Ohhhh I have many, many question, but lets start with this one.

What does this mean?

'So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.'


If according to the religious side, god was here first and created EVERYTHING, and not the big bang or whatever you'd like to call it, where did 'god' come from? Hmmmm?

I can't see why the Hellenic gods are all that great - they're violent, sex-obsessed lunatics who think they can have anyone they want. If they were human, they'd probably be thrown in jail. Older isn't necessarily better. The Egyptians had thousands of gods, each with a different cult, so at least you had a nice selection to pick from. The Norse were just football hooligans who at least had more self control that the Hellenics, who wouldn't pause to think about whether chasing nymphs all day really was a good choice of entertainment.

I did find the creation story in the Silmarillion to be particularly good, but not good enough to worship.

If I were to worship any particular god, I suppose Cthulhu would be an excellent choice, especially due to Cthulhu's wager - either he doesn't exist, and there's no harm done, or he exists, and you, as a worshipper, are killed instantly, as opposed to the eternity of torture which Cthulhu will bring upon all who do not worship him. Then again, Pastafarianism is looking pretty good nowadays...

Cthulhu isn't he that thing from Justice League lol

I can't see why the Hellenic gods are all that great - they're violent, sex-obsessed lunatics who think they can have anyone they want. If they were human, they'd probably be thrown in jail. Older isn't necessarily better. The Egyptians had thousands of gods, each with a different cult, so at least you had a nice selection to pick from. The Norse were just football hooligans who at least had more self control that the Hellenics, who wouldn't pause to think about whether chasing nymphs all day really was a good choice of entertainment.

I did find the creation story in the Silmarillion to be particularly good, but not good enough to worship.

If I were to worship any particular god, I suppose Cthulhu would be an excellent choice, especially due to Cthulhu's wager - either he doesn't exist, and there's no harm done, or he exists, and you, as a worshipper, are killed instantly, as opposed to the eternity of torture which Cthulhu will bring upon all who do not worship him. Then again, Pastafarianism is looking pretty good nowadays...

By having violent sex obsessed Gods just creates a greater link between them and us. Many humans by nature are violent and sex obsessed, and then again, who wants a perfect set of perfect Gods?

And isn't Cthulhu just a sea monster? Like the Kraken or something?
And Pastafarianism was a parody religion, so its hard to believe in a God that was just a joke.

Cthulhu isn't he that thing from Justice League lol

How do you pronounce Cthulhu anyways?

Interesting! I'm actually a Christian seminary student of a major denomination, which means I'm in school and training to become a member of the clergy. I'm open for any questions if you want. Feel free to ask whatever you like!

Interesting I used to want to be a pastor and that still may be in my future but I have in mind to be a professor or teacher even in biblical history you learn alot studying history and reading the bible from its original Hebrew,Greek, and Aramaic text and understanding. It can really strengthen your faith.

How do you pronounce Cthulhu anyways?

I have no idea

I have no idea

Same lol.

By having violent sex obsessed Gods just creates a greater link between them and us. Many humans by nature are violent and sex obsessed, and then again, who wants a perfect set of perfect Gods?

And isn't Cthulhu just a sea monster? Like the Kraken or something?
And Pastafarianism was a parody religion, so its hard to believe in a God that was just a joke.

sex obsessed gods thats kind of wierd and quite scary I mean they could just swoop down out of no where and you know

If according to the religious side, god was here first and created EVERYTHING, and not the big bang or whatever you'd like to call it, where did 'god' come from? Hmmmm?

Huh that's an easy one, and I can't really see how it catches people out. If God has always been here then obviously God was not created.

sex obsessed gods thats kind of wierd and quite scary I mean they could just swoop down out of no where and you know

Any God/Goddess could swoop down and do whatever they want, but they don't.

How do you pronounce Cthulhu anyways?


I think it goes 'CTHRAA-GHHT:OS-FJBJWE-3.14152888888888-!^"%££$***'

Note that this is only a rough guess, I think there's an umlaut somewhere in there.

I don't know, but bad Gods get hit on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

By having violent sex obsessed Gods just creates a greater link between them and us. Many humans by nature are violent and sex obsessed, and then again, who wants a perfect set of perfect Gods?

And isn't Cthulhu just a sea monster? Like the Kraken or something?
And Pastafarianism was a parody religion, so its hard to believe in a God that was just a joke.

And Cthulhu isn't made up? That Lovecraft has a lot to answer for.

I have no idea

Cath-oo-loo.

I think it goes 'CTHRAA-GHHT:OS-FJBJWE-3.14152888888888-!^"%££$***'

Note that this is only a rough guess, I think there's an umlaut somewhere in there.

Now if only I knew how to fully pronounce the pronunciation :tongue:

Ohhhh I have many, many question, but lets start with this one.

What does this mean?

'So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.'

Huh that's an easy one, and I can't really see how it catches people out. If God has always been here then obviously God was not created.


Quite. All of it is comparable to Lord Of The Rings in the aspect that it's all a fiction story used to enlighten and entertain the human mind.

And Cthulhu isn't made up? That Lovecraft has a lot to answer for.

Well Cthulhu is probably made up, I mean you don't see many strange sea monsters these days...

I don't know, but bad Gods get hit on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.

Heh and their nose's rubbed in it?

If according to the religious side, god was here first and created EVERYTHING, and not the big bang or whatever you'd like to call it, where did 'god' come from? Hmmmm?

Well think about it the Bible says In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So right there you have:
The Beginning=time
The Heavens=space
The Earth=Matter
So therefore God would have to be outside space,time and matter. A painter is not his painting, but he can move things around and make it a certain way. In other words God is outside our human understanding, he was here before the beginning and beyond and will be here in the end and beyond. That's my take on it.

By having violent sex obsessed Gods just creates a greater link between them and us. Many humans by nature are violent and sex obsessed, and then again, who wants a perfect set of perfect Gods?

What's the point of gods unless they show some good characteristics? I may be an atheist, but I'd still like any deciding forces within my life to give me some sense of security whever I walk around. If I wanted an insane human running the universe, I'd just invade.

And isn't Cthulhu just a sea monster? Like the Kraken or something?
And Pastafarianism was a parody religion, so its hard to believe in a God that was just a joke.

THE WRATH OF CTHULHU WILL DESTROY YOU!!! FEAR THE NOODLY APPENDAGES OF THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!

Well Cthulhu is probably made up, I mean you don't see many strange sea monsters these days...

Bwhahahah probably? No doubt about it man.

How do you pronounce Cthulhu anyways?

"kuh thoo loo"

Interesting! I'm actually a Christian seminary student of a major denomination, which means I'm in school and training to become a member of the clergy. I'm open for any questions if you want. Feel free to ask whatever you like!

Firstly, I'm going to preface this with the fact that I'm not a Christian (as my other post in the thread will show), but I do find the bible highly interesting as a philosophical and historical text.

I am genuinely curious how it is treated in seminary. I'm guessing a lot of this will depend on the denomination but how are contradictions within the bible resolved or discussed, or are they not? Are certain translations (eg King James' Version) or certain parts (e.g. New over Old testament) given precedence? Or is it about bringing out the holistic, underlying, message rather than a literal interpretation of individual parts of the text?

Well think about it the Bible says In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So right there you have:
The Beginning=time
The Heavens=space
The Earth=Matter
So therefore God would have to be outside space,time and matter. A painter is not his painting, but he can move things around and make it a certain way. In other words God is outside our human understanding, he was here before the beginning and beyond and will be here in the end and beyond. That's my take on it.

The same applies to Cthulhu. Why should 'God' be any different?

Well think about it the Bible says In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So right there you have:
The Beginning=time
The Heavens=space
The Earth=Matter
So therefore God would have to be outside space,time and matter. A painter is not his painting, but he can move things around and make it a certain way. In other words God is outside our human understanding, he was here before the beginning and beyond and will be here in the end and beyond. That's my take on it.

Nice answer :)

Any God/Goddess could swoop down and do whatever they want, but they don't.

But the sex obsessed Greek gods sure did, I mean look at how many kids Zeus alone had.

Well think about it the Bible says In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So right there you have:
The Beginning=time
The Heavens=space
The Earth=Matter
So therefore God would have to be outside space,time and matter. A painter is not his painting, but he can move things around and make it a certain way. In other words God is outside our human understanding, he was here before the beginning and beyond and will be here in the end and beyond. That's my take on it.


Or,

'Adi sach, jugadi sach, hai bhe sach, Nanak hose bhe sach'

As we like to say.

What's the point of gods unless they show some good characteristics? I may be an atheist, but I'd still like any deciding forces within my life to give me some sense of security whever I walk around. If I wanted an insane human running the universe, I'd just invade.



THE WRATH OF CTHULHU WILL DESTROY YOU!!! FEAR THE NOODLY APPENDAGES OF THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER!!!

The Hellenic Gods do show some good characteristics, its just you seem more interested in the violence and sex part of them.

Cthulhu won't destroy me! It'll be ripped apart by the noodly appendages of teh week old Spaghetti thing!

"kuh thoo loo"

Thanks.

I'd rather have sex obsessed greek gods than an emotionless one. I'd rather have something present than something distant. I'd rather have something to compare with than be judged by something greater.

But the sex obsessed Greek gods sure did, I mean look at how many kids Zeus alone had.

So Zeus was a a busy man, that doesn't mean anything ;SS

I find the God of the Bible to be the most interesting.

I find the god of the Bible (as in OT and NT combined) strange, as they seem completely contradictory, without reason, but that also makes for interest :)

I can't see why the Hellenic gods are all that great - they're violent, sex-obsessed lunatics who think they can have anyone they want. If they were human, they'd probably be thrown in jail. Older isn't necessarily better. The Egyptians had thousands of gods, each with a different cult, so at least you had a nice selection to pick from. The Norse were just football hooligans who at least had more self control that the Hellenics, who wouldn't pause to think about whether chasing nymphs all day really was a good choice of entertainment.

My partner likes the norse gods. She doesn't worship them though, she's not religious. Strangely enough, she also likes Bast in her maternal state of mind too... Life is full of contradictions...

It should be remembered in Greek myth, indeed in all the myths of all the gods, that what can seem gratuitous on occasion is the result of the author trying to express something far beyond the human realm, and often the only way to do that was to amp up the sex/violence factor. It tends to be the way humans regard power.

I'd rather have sex obsessed greek gods than an emotionless one. I'd rather have something present than something distant. I'd rather have something to compare with than be judged by something greater.

True ... maybeh.

Well think about it the Bible says In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So right there you have:
The Beginning=time
The Heavens=space
The Earth=Matter
So therefore God would have to be outside space,time and matter. A painter is not his painting, but he can move things around and make it a certain way. In other words God is outside our human understanding, he was here before the beginning and beyond and will be here in the end and beyond. That's my take on it.


But why should the bible be taken as an appropiate source? I could grab a stone tablet, scribble a similar story on it and 'publish' that as my new bible.

The same applies to Cthulhu. Why should 'God' be any different?

God has a deepness about him that he is intelligent and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. He can become a man and live among and still at the same time govern the universe from Heaven. He is faithful, loyal, and he can love as a father loves his child. Unlike other gods in ancient history, he is not selfish and is willing to give all for us.

And Pastafarianism was a parody religion, so its hard to believe in a God that was just a joke.

I believe in jokes.
Jokes are real.
I've MET jokes.

I believe in jokes.
Jokes are real.
I've MET jokes.

Well I guess there are those people who are standing jokes.

I believe in jokes.
Jokes are real.
I've MET jokes.

Even dated a few huh huh!:D

God has a deepness about him that he is intelligent and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. He can become a man and live among and still at the same time govern the universe from Heaven. He is faithful, loyal, and he can love as a father loves his child. Unlike other gods in ancient history, he is not selfish and is willing to give all for us.

He's willing but he doesn't seem to bother much.

Last time I look behind my 10 dollar bill it said

"In God we trust".

I certainly don't mind having a lot of those Gods.

I'd rather have sex obsessed greek gods than an emotionless one. I'd rather have something present than something distant. I'd rather have something to compare with than be judged by something greater.

That is the great thing about God is that he is so vast, but yet he is not distant and he loves us and wants to have a personal relationship with us. He does not want to take advantage of us like Zeus and those others did.

I can't see why the Hellenic gods are all that great - they're violent, sex-obsessed lunatics who think they can have anyone they want.

What's the point of gods unless they show some good characteristics? I may be an atheist, but I'd still like any deciding forces within my life to give me some sense of security whever I walk around. If I wanted an insane human running the universe, I'd just invade.


The gods are in many ways reflections of both ourselves and nature. They did have good aspects, Goddess of the Hearth and Home (Hestia), Gods of Healing (Asclepius), the Muses, who inspired the arts, Goddess of Fertility (Demeter)... but good aspects were tempered with bad, and the bad aspects were often tempered with good. Athena may have been a war Goddess, but she was also a Goddess of heroism, strategy, wisdom and learning.

I personally believe in respecting the Gods (and by extension the forces of both nature and humanity they represent) for their power and learning from both the good and bad, so I can develop a rational and ethically based morality rather than one based on a divinely mandated absolute right and wrong.

He's willing but he doesn't seem to bother much.

He is very willing and does want to get to know you. The thing is you have to got to him read your bible pray and get to know him. Think about it how are you going to ask someone to help if you don't know them?

That is the great thing about God is that he is so vast, but yet he is not distant and he loves us and wants to have a personal relationship with us. He does not want to take advantage of us like Zeus and those others did.

Who did Zeus take advantage of?

And Pastafarianism was a parody religion, so its hard to believe in a God that was just a joke.

just like the guy who said, "wouldn't it be funny if we made everyone believe the messiah had arrived, lets call him jesus"
and then his friend says, "brilliant idea, lets make him do something crazy, like turn water into wine, i'll write a few ideas and say it happened a few years ago."

Thanks.

You're welcome.

On topic: Any God that helps you bilk little old ladies out of their social security checks is good in my book.:tongue:

Even dated a few huh huh!:D

Nah, I only ever dated one religious person. For a total of two days... ;)

He is very willing and does want to get to know you. The thing is you have to got to him read your bible pray and get to know him. Think about it how are you going to ask someone to help if you don't know them?

Yet if he is willing to help, why does he not just help those he knows need it, without being asked first?

Who did Zeus take advantage of?

From what I've read, every damn female he could get his hand on.

Who did Zeus take advantage of?

The occasional swan?
Cause the girls all were willing enough, to be honest.

just like the guy who said, "wouldn't it be funny if we made everyone believe the messiah had arrived, lets call him jesus"
and then his friend says, "brilliant idea, lets make him do something crazy, like turn water into wine, i'll write a few ideas and say it happened a few years ago."

Yeah but, how do we know whether that was a joke or not? where as we are certain in the knowledge that The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a joke.

Nah, I only ever dated one religious person. For a total of two days... ;)

I meant jokes! You have dated some jokes. *pst* or so I have heard.

He is very willing and does want to get to know you. The thing is you have to got to him read your bible pray and get to know him. Think about it how are you going to ask someone to help if you don't know them?

I'm not Christian so um yeah I won't be doing that.

But how do you get to know him when praying to him is like shouting into a void?
And even then it seems like a hell of a lot of people still don't get any real help from God.

There are many ways to view the concept of diety, I personaly find much fault in the Christian concept, hence I ain't no Christian.

Which concept is the best one?

Come on now, don't be shy, leave your gloves at the door!:D

Greetings,

Gandhi once said Christ yes, Christians no. I believe we are on this world to help others and believe there is a higher power so if we are truly searching for truth we will find it and in the meantime just help others

Cheers, Eagle Scream

But why should the bible be taken as an appropiate source? I could grab a stone tablet, scribble a similar story on it and 'publish' that as my new bible.

Did you know that the Bible has barely changed for thousands of years? When the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed they were almost exactly the same as the Bible to today. Now there were a few minor word changes like for example beguile would be changed to trick. Also there are hidden prophetic messages in the Hebrew text of the Bible. I will tell you one but I need to know first do you know of the story of Esther?

The occasional swan?
Cause the girls all were willing enough, to be honest.

Precisely. There are very few accounts of Zeus raping anyone, most of them were completely willing.

God has a deepness about him that he is intelligent and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. He can become a man and live among and still at the same time govern the universe from Heaven. He is faithful, loyal, and he can love as a father loves his child. Unlike other gods in ancient history, he is not selfish and is willing to give all for us.

All gods have higher thoughts than we do, that's a part of what makes them gods, is it not? Your god is the same as the gods of others. He is shown in your Bible to have emotions, feelings, including jealousy and selfishness, but also love and concern. My gods, too, feel these things. I'm happy you have a good relationship with your god, but it doesn't mean you have to attack the gods of others.

Dion Fortune (or was it Doreen Valiente) said: "All gods are one god. All goddesses are one goddess, and there is one initator."

I meant jokes! You have dated some jokes. *pst* or so I have heard.

In fairness, that guy made me laugh like nothing else at the time. One of the best jokes I've ever met.
I was in stiches after his rant about my sinful lifestyle (after he'd fucked me, of course)...

I'm just finding it terribly difficult to take people seriously who take religion seriously. I try, but then they will inevitably say something that has me rolling on the floor holding my sides again...

Greetings,

Gandhi once said Christ yes, Christians no. I believe we are on this world to help others and believe there is a higher power so if we are truly searching for truth we will find it and in the meantime just help others

Cheers, Eagle Scream

Then it seems that I agree with both Gandhi and yourself.

Precisely. There are very few accounts of Zeus raping anyone, most of them were completely willing.

Then again most people would be willing to have sex with the most powerful God , rather than risk his displeasure. And hell maybe Zeus was a reputed lover which sparked many peoples interest.

From what I've read, every damn female he could get his hand on.

And half the blokes too. But as a rule they were generally willing, Zeus tended to use seduction although also an unhealthy dollop of deception. No one claimed that he was perfect.

Did you know that the Bible has barely changed for thousands of years? When the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed they were almost exactly the same as the Bible to today. Now there were a few minor word changes like for example beguile would be changed to trick. Also there are hidden prophetic messages in the Hebrew text of the Bible. I will tell you one but I need to know first do you know of the story of Esther?

So King James never had had the Bible rewritten then? Umm history is strange old bird huh!

And half the blokes too. But as a rule they were generally willing, Zeus tended to use seduction although also an unhealthy dollop of deception. No one claimed that he was perfect.

He doesn't need to be perfect, considering how powerful a God he is.

Did you know that the Bible has barely changed for thousands of years? When the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed they were almost exactly the same as the Bible to today. Now there were a few minor word changes like for example beguile would be changed to trick. Also there are hidden prophetic messages in the Hebrew text of the Bible. I will tell you one but I need to know first do you know of the story of Esther?

So let me get this straight : Humans changed, society changed, knowledge changed, geography changed, climate changed, habitats changed... and you think it's a good thing that the bible hasn't kept up with it?

He doesn't need to be perfect, considering how powerful a God he is.

Makes him very endearing as a character, I always thought.
Although my favourite would have to be Apollo... poor sod can't get the girl, even though she's his very own priestess.

Yeah but, how do we know whether that was a joke or not? where as we are certain in the knowledge that The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a joke.

simple answer is we dont, i was merely putting forward the idea that religion was used back in the early days as a means of control, so that greedy rich people could get richer.

another thing is that i believe monotheistic religions to be somewhat lazy, as im quite entertained by the idea of someone making sure they thank the god of door hinges for allowing them quick entry to the toilet, then thanking the god of toilets for stopping their toilet from becoming blocked. monotheism just lumps several practices into one quick one.

In fairness, that guy made me laugh like nothing else at the time. One of the best jokes I've ever met.
I was in stiches after his rant about my sinful lifestyle (after he'd fucked me, of course)...

I'm just finding it terribly difficult to take people seriously who take religion seriously. I try, but then they will inevitably say something that has me rolling on the floor holding my sides again...

Heheh no wait, you sound like my wife. I can't talk to her about religion, she just gets all giggly and gives me that look! Damned heathen!:tongue:

I personally believe in respecting the Gods (and by extension the forces of both nature and humanity they represent) for their power and learning from both the good and bad, so I can develop a rational and ethically based morality rather than one based on a divinely mandated absolute right and wrong.

Isn't the whole "respect" follow by "judgments" of the Gods' behaviors a bit contradictory? Being allow to freely choose which of God's trait is good or bad already put you in a position where you make the moral choices rather than the Gods themselves.

I guess what I am saying is, I am not sure rather the moral comes from the observation of the Gods, or rather you are using them as a mean to justify your preexisting moral standards.

Did you know that the Bible has barely changed for thousands of years? When the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed they were almost exactly the same as the Bible to today. Now there were a few minor word changes like for example beguile would be changed to trick. Also there are hidden prophetic messages in the Hebrew text of the Bible. I will tell you one but I need to know first do you know of the story of Esther?

I call BS. The Bible has countless different versions and revisions in circulation, as I understand it. King James Version mean anything? First Council of Nicea mean anything? (the time spent looking up Christianity on teh interwebz pays off)

simple answer is we dont, i was merely putting forward the idea that religion was used back in the early days as a means of control, so that greedy rich people could get richer.

another thing is that i believe monotheistic religions to be somewhat lazy, as im quite entertained by the idea of someone making sure they thank the god of door hinges for allowing them quick entry to the toilet, then thanking the god of toilets for stopping their toilet from becoming blocked. monotheism just lumps several practices into one quick one.

They also used tricks to try and keep people under their control -nods-.

Makes him very endearing as a character, I always thought.
Although my favourite would have to be Apollo... poor sod can't get the girl, even though she's his very own priestess.

Ah Apollo, the God of... well whatever they couldn't give to anyone else really. He had quite a varied portfolio.

My preference has always ran towards Athena personally, though I also have a lot of respect for Artemis and, on the darker side, Eris.

I'm not Christian so um yeah I won't be doing that.

But how do you get to know him when praying to him is like shouting into a void?
And even then it seems like a hell of a lot of people still don't get any real help from God.

Believe me if you fast and pray in the Spirit, God will help. Sometimes you don't have to fast, but you must always pray in the Spirit for God is Spirit.Some people get themselves in a fix and then after rejecting God for a long time they cry out to him and when things get better they go back to their old ways. Yet I understand that people go through things but sometimes hardships happen to bring people closer to God. In most 3rd world countries we think that the poeple are all sad and down trodden because they are poor and on TV they make it seem that way. Now don't get me wrong there are very depressed people out there. But going to a third world country, I have noticed that the people in those places are more happy because they have a closer relationship with God. You must also remember that the Bible does not say that are lives are going perfect and wonderful, but actually says things are going to get worse and I am sure you can got to the nearest gas pump and see that. But the Bible encourages that in the end of Days Christ will come for his own and there will be no more suffering, no more death.

Believe me if you fast and pray in the Spirit, God will help. Sometimes you don't have to fast, but you must always pray in the Spirit for God is Spirit.Some people get themselves in a fix and then after rejecting God for a long time they cry out to him and when things get better they go back to their old ways. Yet I understand that people go through things but sometimes hardships happen to bring people closer to God. In most 3rd world countries we think that the poeple are all sad and down trodden because they are poor and on TV they make it seem that way. Now don't get me wrong there are very depressed people out there. But going to a third world country, I have noticed that the people in those places are more happy because they have a closer relationship with God. You must also remember that the Bible does not say that are lives are going perfect and wonderful, but actually says things are going to get worse and I am sure you can got to the nearest gas pump and see that. But the Bible encourages that in the end of Days Christ will come for his own and there will be no more suffering, no more death.

Anyway moving on...

So King James never had had the Bible rewritten then? Umm history is strange old bird huh!

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I do know that for a long time the Bible had been continually translated from language to language again and again but the basic meanings of the words are still the same in every translation.

Ah Apollo, the God of... well whatever they couldn't give to anyone else really. He had quite a varied portfolio.

My preference has always ran towards Athena personally, though I also have a lot of respect for Artemis and, on the darker side, Eris.

I quite like the idea of Loki, and Thor, well any God willing to dress up as woman to retirve his missing tool is fine in my book.

Cath-oo-loo.

Like so (http://www.squidzone.ca/photos/uncategorized/cthulhu_kitty.jpg)? :p

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but I do know that for a long time the Bible had been continually translated from language to language again and again but the basic meanings of the words are still the same in every translation.

Then you really need to do a bit of reading on the history of the King James Bible.

What do you need the God for? Entertainment? The Norse gods were entertaining. If you want to know which God is "good" for worship, I wouldn't worship a flawed God. I'm flawed, someone has to be better than me to be worthy of worship.

What do you need the God for? Entertainment? The Norse gods were entertaining. If you want to know which God is "good" for worship, I wouldn't worship a flawed God. I'm flawed, someone has to be better than me to be worthy of worship.

Well, I wouldn't say they were worshipped so much as bribed, really.

And I trust someone I can bribe a lot more than someone who's all perfect and holy. At least with the bribeable guy, you know where you are. ;)

Did you know that the Bible has barely changed for thousands of years? When the Dead Sea Scrolls were unearthed they were almost exactly the same as the Bible to today. Now there were a few minor word changes like for example beguile would be changed to trick. Also there are hidden prophetic messages in the Hebrew text of the Bible. I will tell you one but I need to know first do you know of the story of Esther?

Yes, I know the story of Esther. The one book where god isn't mentioned, yet he manages to save the jewish people. I've read it, I'm jewish myself.

The bible has remained unchanged? It's changed constantly! The christian bible (new testement) has had hundred of different books, different translations have resulted in different interpretations of the bible (there are 50 instances of key words being changed in christian bible texts through different translations), and there are NO prophetic messages - the prophets themselves couldn't have cared less about events which would happen hundreds of years after their deaths.

I call BS. The Bible has countless different versions and revisions in circulation, as I understand it. King James Version mean anything? First Council of Nicea mean anything? (the time spent looking up Christianity on teh interwebz pays off)

The Bible that mainstream Christianity (not talking about the Catholic Bible or the Eastern Orthodox Bible) uses is the same as that which has always been. Now there are different books out there. The Books in the Bible are in there because for one, the Old Testament Books are the same as what is in the Hebrew Tanach that is why those are in there. The New Testament books were put in the canon because they were made 30-80 years after Jesus' death. Those other books like the Apocrapha were made 100 or more years after Jesus died and they were made by Gnostic groups whose teachings were not in line with Biblical Christianity.

Well, I wouldn't say they were worshipped so much as bribed, really.

And I trust someone I can bribe a lot more than someone who's all perfect and holy. At least with the bribeable guy, you know where you are. ;)

If you are going to bribe a God then you need a distinct lack of morality and a surplus of selfishness. I wouldn't want someone like that in charge of me, it would be like working under the mob. Those type of God are useless. I wouldn't say they were good.

Then you really need to do a bit of reading on the history of the King James Bible.

I know what you mean there are three passages in the New Testament that may have been added however, new translations of the Bible spot these passages out and they will say something like this: This passage is not in earlier translations or something like that.

So let me get this straight : Humans changed, society changed, knowledge changed, geography changed, climate changed, habitats changed... and you think it's a good thing that the bible hasn't kept up with it?

Yes because if it hasn't changed that means that God has been preserving his word.

If you are going to bribe a God then you need a distinct lack of morality and a surplus of selfishness. I wouldn't want someone like that in charge of me, it would be like working under the mob. Those type of God are useless. I wouldn't say they were good.

Huh? Why would I need that?

And as I understand, gods back then weren't really in charge of people. They just lurked around and played with them now and then when their own soap opera script got too boring. People weren't living "under" the gods, more side by side with occaional intereference.

Like so (http://www.squidzone.ca/photos/uncategorized/cthulhu_kitty.jpg)? :p

Indeed! Cuthulu and Toxoplasma gondii I think are from the same litrature?

Yes because if it hasn't changed that means that God has been preserving his word.

You know what else hasn't changed for about the same amount of time?
The Egyptian Book of the Dead.
And the stories about the Greek gods.
And the Norse gods.

But that's mostly cause people stopped taking an interest in them.
People who see significance in a book that's losing significance every day because it isn't updated by its ghost writer anymore are just beyond me.

the Bible had been continually translated from language to language again and again but the basic meanings of the words are still the same in every translation.
Yep yep, and the virgin birth really really happened. Can't possibly have been a mistranslation or anything like that.;)

Yes because if it hasn't changed that means that God has been preserving his word.

And yet a knowledgeable God would insure that his meassge gets through to all people and so take into acount a changing world huh?

Why no new 'rap' messiah for our presant times I wonder?

And yet a knowledgeable God would insure that his meassge gets through to all people and so take into acount a changing world huh?

Why no new 'rap' messiah for our presant times I wonder?

Cause no one could possibly take rap that seriously, and nobody would take some one who takes rap as literal seriously.

Yes I do have a strong dislike for rap.

Huh? Why would I need that?

And as I understand, gods back then weren't really in charge of people. They just lurked around and played with them now and then when their own soap opera script got too boring. People weren't living "under" the gods, more side by side with occaional intereference.

In many ways the Gods were really forces of nature. They were ways for people to rationalise the storms, the seas, the changing of the seasons, wars which ravaged their lands etc... all things that were essentially out of their control, they assigned to a god. Also things within their control but which a bit of luck, divine inspiration, never hurt, e.g. craftsmanship, art and so on. By praying to the gods, giving them thanks, a sacrifice etc... they hoped to tip the scales of fate back into their balance and take back a semblance of control over their lives (and control, even illusionary control, is very important for a healthy human psyche).

Huh? Why would I need that?

And as I understand, gods back then weren't really in charge of people. They just lurked around and played with them now and then when their own soap opera script got too boring. People weren't living "under" the gods, more side by side with occaional intereference.

Then why the need to bribe them?

In many ways the Gods were really forces of nature. They were ways for people to rationalise the storms, the seas, the changing of the seasons, wars which ravaged their lands etc... all things that were essentially out of their control, they assigned to a god. Also things within their control but which a bit of luck, divine inspiration, never hurt, e.g. craftsmanship, art and so on. By praying to the gods, giving them thanks, a sacrifice etc... they hoped to tip the scales of fate back into their balance and take back a semblance of control over their lives (and control, even illusionary control, is very important for a healthy human psyche).

I'd say that's what god(s) still is for most people today ;)

Yes, I know the story of Esther. The one book where god isn't mentioned, yet he manages to save the jewish people. I've read it, I'm jewish myself.

The bible has remained unchanged? It's changed constantly! The christian bible (new testement) has had hundred of different books, different translations have resulted in different interpretations of the bible (there are 50 instances of key words being changed in christian bible texts through different translations), and there are NO prophetic messages - the prophets themselves couldn't have cared less about events which would happen hundreds of years after their deaths.

If you read the Bible using the Hebrew letters you would understand. You see like our alphabet the hebrew alphabet has a numerical value like A=1, Z=26. Now you know how Haman tried to destroy the Jewish people and he was put to death because of Esther's plea of help from to her husband. Not only Haman was put death but so were his 10 sons. Now when the Bible lists the names of Haman's sons, the numerical value of their names in Hebrew come out to 1946. In 1946 11 Nazis were scheduled to be hanged. One of them was found dead earlier with his mistress, that Nazi was Adolf Hitler.

Then why the need to bribe them?

Don't ask me, I never tried that. But some ambitious folks will always give it a try. And it's nice to know they won't waste their time and money ;)

And yet a knowledgeable God would insure that his meassge gets through to all people and so take into acount a changing world huh?

Why no new 'rap' messiah for our presant times I wonder?

So just because the world has changed we should steal, cheat, lie, rape, no. Why should he in any way change his word?

If you read the Bible using the Hebrew letters you would understand. You see like our alphabet the hebrew alphabet has a numerical value like A=1, Z=26. Now you know how Haman tried to destroy the Jewish people and he was put to death because of Esther's plea of help from to her husband. Not only Haman was put death but so were his 10 sons. Now when the Bible lists the names of Haman's sons, the numerical value of their names in Hebrew come out to 1946. In 1946 11 Nazis were scheduled to be hanged. One of them was found dead earlier with his mistress, that Nazi was Adolf Hitler.

*roflmao

Oh boy... And you love Nostradamus as well, I'd bet, don't you?

Don't ask me, I never tried that. But some ambitious folks will always give it a try. And it's nice to know they won't waste their time and money ;)

Interesting. I would rather give money to people who need it than to a "God" who won't do anything for it or with it and can't possibly do anything for me, even if they wanted to, which would be unlikely in the event of a Greek God who would probably just rather sex people and other Gods.

I guess if you are bribing them for entertainment it's like paying the cable company, only instead of shitty re-runs of Scrubs you get actual entertainment.

Cause no one could possibly take rap that seriously, and nobody would take some one who takes rap as literal seriously.

Yes I do have a strong dislike for rap.

Heh so coz you don't like rap, it is objectivly true that 'no one could possibly take rap seriously'?

Damn, me but people are soooo fuckin' strange.

You know what else hasn't changed for about the same amount of time?
The Egyptian Book of the Dead.
And the stories about the Greek gods.
And the Norse gods.

But that's mostly cause people stopped taking an interest in them.
People who see significance in a book that's losing significance every day because it isn't updated by its ghost writer anymore are just beyond me.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead was a fairly recent discovery and did not have time to really change. The Stories of the Greek Gods has probably changed more than any other text. There are many stories of the same account. For instance Aphrodite was said to have been the daughter of Zeus and Dione but in other story she was said to have come out of the foam of the sea. Did you know no one even knows the exact identity of Homer, it was said he was a blind man, he was a woman, and even that he was more than one person. These stories have been changed.

The only good God is a dead God.

By the very nature of God(s) they cannot die.

Of all the deity stories I liked the Roman Gods, I enjoy hearing about their stories including the demi-gods and other beings that encountered them, the gods that presided over the Hellenes and surrounding areas were always favorites of mine.

I enjoy the stories of Ancient China and the different gods and other immortal beings and the stories that were a part of them, I always liked the idea that the different gods of the different religions all presided in heaven or had their own palaces and interacted with each other, with the Jade Emperor presiding over all.

The Celtic stories while I liked there was a lot of them that didn't quite have the same 'zing' for lack of a better word with them, though I must admit I haven't studied these stories as much as those of Rome and of the Greeks, the same goes for the Norse Gods I don't know enough about them to really form an opinion.

So just because the world has changed we should steal, cheat, lie, rape, no. Why should he in any way change his word?

Funny thing is, our moral understanding evolved. I would say that most people today have far higher moral values than the bible ever cared to spell out.
If I remember correctly, rape wasn't much of a crime, unless it ruined the chances of the father of the victim to get a get a good price for her when selling her off into marriage.
These days, most people would be appaled at the thought of marrying of children, slavery, regarding women and children as property to be used and disposed of at will, and many other concepts the bible happily endorses.

Which is why, all in all, it would have been a good idea to update the thing once in a while. I mean, you want it to a moral guideline rather than a handbook on how not to treat people.

*roflmao

Oh boy... And you love Nostradamus as well, I'd bet, don't you?

lol ha im actually not much of a fan

This is a good god.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg/800px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg

The Egyptian Book of the Dead was a fairly recent discovery and did not have time to really change. The Stories of the Greek Gods has probably changed more than any other text. There are many stories of the same account. For instance Aphrodite was said to have been the daughter of Zeus and Dione but in other story she was said to have come out of the foam of the sea. Did you know no one even knows the exact identity of Homer, it was said he was a blind man, he was a woman, and even that he was more than one person. These stories have been changed.

So? There are two quite seperate stories in the bible about how humans were created (one time they were created female and male simultaneously, another time male first and female from male).
And nobody has even the faintest idea who wrote those stories, there isn't even so much as a name.

Once the stories were written down, they were not changed again. You can read the Illiad or the Edda today in the same letters and words they were written down in millenia ago.

Are we talking Gods here, or are we talking about the Human crafted images/descriptions of Gods?

I wouldn't expect the latter to be flawless.

I wouldn't expect the former to be be fully understandable to a finite, mortal mind.

I think much of what we associate with God is a product of ourselves- our own fears, hopes, anxieties, and visions of justice projected onto the infinite.

This doesn't mean there is no God, simply that God as we tend to picture God is not God.

The whole concept of prayer, for example. What is it, really? An attempt to tell a supremely omniscient, omnipotent, and benevolent being that you have a better idea as to how your little corner of the universe ought to be run?

Massaging the Divine Ego?

Or did we Humans simply invent the concept because begging, pleading, and cajoling seems to work sometimes with powerful Humans, so we extended it to the All Powerful- and then convinced ourselves it was God's idea?


Christianity crashes into philosophical rocks. If none of us are good enough for heaven, why does God want us there in the first place? And if he wants us there, isn't that evidence that we are in fact good enough? Christianity as a whole is like a school teacher telling the class that no children, anywhere, are smart enough to pass the class, but since he really, truly wants them, he'll just flunk the one honor student (who happens to be his son) and then change all the grades.

Not to single Christianity out- every other western religion crashes into rocks of its own. Judaism developed a nice dodge- the rocks are all so terribly complicated that only some long dead rabbis can understand them, so don't question the rocks, because they ain't really rocks.

Islam has an easier dodge. Don't mention the rocks, or else.

There are some eastern philosophies that use a different tack. The Tao Te Ching never, not once, tries to tell you what God is actually like. Lots of wisdom, lots of this is Good and that is Bad, but no specific "Thus Spake..."

And then you get the western religions saying "well, in that case, Taoism isn't truly a religion" and thus the wheels spin. Apparently, if it doesn't attempt to define what should be all means remain undefinable, its not a religion!

So just because the world has changed we should steal, cheat, lie, rape, no. Why should he in any way change his word?

No, but I'd like to think the world has changed enough that should I be raped I won't be forced to marry my rapist (as recommended by the bible), or that I can't be sold into slavery (again, the bible is fine with this), or that should I choose to do some work on the sabbath, I don't need to be stoned. And let's not even get into issues regarding pre-marital sex, divorce or homosexuality...

Interesting. I would rather give money to people who need it than to a "God" who won't do anything for it or with it and can't possibly do anything for me, even if they wanted to, which would be unlikely in the event of a Greek God who would probably just rather sex people and other Gods.

I guess if you are bribing them for entertainment it's like paying the cable company, only instead of shitty re-runs of Scrubs you get actual entertainment.

Oh, I don't know... 10 years of epic entertainment culminating in a massive wooden horse, plus a couple millenia later a crappy little film with a gorgeous Hector, all for one apple? Sounds like a good deal to me, entertainmentwise.

Oh, I don't know... 10 years of epic entertainment culminating in a massive wooden horse, plus a couple millenia later a crappy little film with a gorgeous Hector, all for one apple? Sounds like a good deal to me, entertainmentwise.

It's better than Scrubs for sure. :p

By the very nature of God(s) they cannot die.

The Celtic stories while I liked there was a lot of them that didn't quite have the same 'zing' for lack of a better word with them, though I must admit I haven't studied these stories as much as those of Rome and of the Greeks, the same goes for the Norse Gods I don't know enough about them to really form an opinion.

Actually, in the pagan mythologies, gods could and did die... occasionally they came back but some were pretty definitively dead.

Like I said before, I think the Celtic gods suffered from pretty much all we know of them being recorded by Christian monks, not the Celts themselves, which ultimately took a lot of the more divine/pagan aspects out to fit in better to their world-view.

It's better than Scrubs for sure. :p

what's wrong with scrubs?

No, but I'd like to think the world has changed enough that should I be raped I won't be forced to marry my rapist (as recommended by the bible), or that I can't be sold into slavery (again, the bible is fine with this), or that should I choose to do some work on the sabbath, I don't need to be stoned. And let's not even get into issues regarding pre-marital sex, divorce or homosexuality...

While I understand what you are saying, if they decided to change these things you or at least some people would be criticising them for doing this and say that they are ignoring the things in the bible because it isn't acceptable anymore, now this might not be you but I have seen it from some people on here before.

What is so bad about not being allowed to be sold into slavery? And what passage does it say where you must marry your rapist?

In regards to the Sabbath, that is only the Jews who still hold this, after all Christianity while it maintains the Hebrew Scriptures the entire point pf Christ was changes to the faith, lest of all saying everyone is equal.

Actually, in the pagan mythologies, gods could and did die... occasionally they came back but some were pretty definitively dead.

Like I said before, I think the Celtic gods suffered from pretty much all we know of them being recorded by Christian monks, not the Celts themselves, which ultimately took a lot of the more divine/pagan aspects out to fit in better to their world-view.

Well they can't have been Gods then, but no I do remember reading in my encyclopedia of Mythology about some of the Celtic gods dying.

What is so bad about not being allowed to be sold into slavery? And what passage does it say where you must marry your rapist?

Sorry, I meant, I shouldn't be allowed to be sold into slavery, yet there is much in the bible which does support this institution, because it was acceptable back then.

And: Deuteronomy 22:28-29: If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

In regards to the Sabbath, that is only the Jews who still hold this, after all Christianity while it maintains the Hebrew Scriptures the entire point pf Christ was changes to the faith, lest of all saying everyone is equal.

Now, if there was consistency here, I could get behind this. Much of what Jesus said was radical, even for the time, and there are some very good philosophical points. There are still aspects of it which need to be looked at and interpreted in the context of the time, but it has a good underlying message ("be nice to others"). Unfortunately my experience has often been that those who believe and interpret the bible as literal truth (as opposed to just a good moral guide), will be just as likely to use the Old Testament as the New one as place over emphasis on the words which are said not the underlying meaning behind them.

what's wrong with scrubs?

It's the same show over and over again, predictable, infantile, immature and boring.

As far as comedy goes, Scrubs isn't.

So just because the world has changed we should steal, cheat, lie, rape, no. Why should he in any way change his word?

Bwhahahah who's saying that now? The point is that old language is often not understood, or misunderstood by moderen people, so why has God not caused his words to be re-issued so that it is clearer for our times?

Bwhahahah who's saying that now? The point is that old language is often not understood, or misunderstood by moderen people, so why has God not caused his words to be re-issued so that it is clearer for our times?
You mean like the New International Version or the American Standard Version?

Funny thing is, our moral understanding evolved. I would say that most people today have far higher moral values than the bible ever cared to spell out.
If I remember correctly, rape wasn't much of a crime, unless it ruined the chances of the father of the victim to get a get a good price for her when selling her off into marriage.
These days, most people would be appaled at the thought of marrying of children, slavery, regarding women and children as property to be used and disposed of at will, and many other concepts the bible happily endorses.

Which is why, all in all, it would have been a good idea to update the thing once in a while. I mean, you want it to a moral guideline rather than a handbook on how not to treat people.

You have to see friend that in some places in Africa and the Middle East and other parts of Asia, even in Europe they still have a similar thinking. However slavery in the Ancient World was a heck of a lot different from the barbarity of slavery here in the Americas. The thing was in the time of the Bible slavery was quite benign. It was a mutual relationship the slave worked for the master and in return the master must (recognizing the humanity of the slave) must provide the slave with a comfortable place in his home and he must provide food and clothing for the slave treat the slave as a member of his household. A slave in ancient times who fell on hard times would even sell himself in to slavery. Slaves even had the ability to become kings as is evident in King Solomon's servant Jeroboam who became king of Israel's northern kingdom and Sundiata Keita who became the first king of Mali in West Africa. The slavery in America was cruel in that the humanity of the slave was not recognized. The giving of daughters in marriage was not considered bad at all in ancient times and in many developing countries around the world today. If there was a poor family one way to make a lot of money was to give your daughter to a rich man for a dowery. You would not give your daughter to any old person mind you, but you tried to find a good man who you know will take care of her. To the Western mind this would seem quite barbaric but to a woman in Saudi Arabia this would be quite natural. In cases of rape, the Old Testament of the Bible has an eye for eye attitude toward things in that you get what you get. So if a man raped a girl who was not married he was now responsible for her and therefore had to marry her. But if he did it to a woman who was either engaged or married he must be put to death because he took another man's wife.

It's the same show over and over again, predictable, infantile, immature and boring.

As far as comedy goes, Scrubs isn't.

After a few series I began to realise I really hated all the characters that I think you were meant to like.

You mean like the New International Version or the American Standard Version?

No I mean like a new original divinly inspired work, rather than a moderisation of an older text.

Ohh wait we do have one of these, Guru Granth Sahib!:D

So? There are two quite seperate stories in the bible about how humans were created (one time they were created female and male simultaneously, another time male first and female from male).
And nobody has even the faintest idea who wrote those stories, there isn't even so much as a name.

Once the stories were written down, they were not changed again. You can read the Illiad or the Edda today in the same letters and words they were written down in millenia ago.

That is not true. The first is only a summary of what will happen in the next chapter. This is common place in the Bible. I have studied those chapters, I suggest you do the same don't take my word for it look at it yourself.

After a few series I began to realise I really hated all the characters that I think you were meant to like.

Yep. At least with some dramas I can get away with suspension of disbelief and bad acting for a while. Comedy I'm much harder on, the acting can be bad but the jokes must be witty and new. I'm so over the sitcom thing anyway, and Scrubs (in particular but not uniquely) is basically the same 30 minutes every episode.

You have to see friend that in some places in Africa and the Middle East and other parts of Asia, even in Europe they still have a similar thinking. However slavery in the Ancient World was a heck of a lot different from the barbarity of slavery here in the Americas. The thing was in the time of the Bible slavery was quite benign. It was a mutual relationship the slave worked for the master and in return the master must (recognizing the humanity of the slave) must provide the slave with a comfortable place in his home and he must provide food and clothing for the slave treat the slave as a member of his household. A slave in ancient times who fell on hard times would even sell himself in to slavery. Slaves even had the ability to become kings as is evident in King Solomon's servant Jeroboam who became king of Israel's northern kingdom and Sundiata Keita who became the first king of Mali in West Africa. The slavery in America was cruel in that the humanity of the slave was not recognized. The giving of daughters in marriage was not considered bad at all in ancient times and in many developing countries around the world today. If there was a poor family one way to make a lot of money was to give your daughter to a rich man for a dowery. You would not give your daughter to any old person mind you, but you tried to find a good man who you know will take care of her. To the Western mind this would seem quite barbaric but to a woman in Saudi Arabia this would be quite natural. In cases of rape, the Old Testament of the Bible has an eye for eye attitude toward things in that you get what you get. So if a man raped a girl who was not married he was now responsible for her and therefore had to marry her. But if he did it to a woman who was either engaged or married he must be put to death because he took another man's wife.

... Ok, just in case I misunderstood this : you are actually endorsing slavery as "not so bad"? You are promoting arranged marriages? And you would condone forcing a woman to marry a guy who just raped her?

Wow. I guess I was a bit naive when I assumed most people had higher moral values these days, and more respect for the rights of other human beings.

Sorry, I meant, I shouldn't be allowed to be sold into slavery, yet there is much in the bible which does support this institution, because it was acceptable back then.

And: Deuteronomy 22:28-29: If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Yes I knew what you meant, and yes it was acceptable back then perhaps than rather saying the slave holders should treat their slave better they should have been more radical and said it shouldn't be held at all, but then the people who wrote this (from memory Paul in a few of his letters) probably didn't know this and I wouldn't be surprised if some of Jesus' disciples owned slaves themselves after all fishermen earned quite a bit of money back then.

Thank you for providing tha passage.

Now, if there was consistency here, I could get behind this. Much of what Jesus said was radical, even for the time, and there are some very good philosophical points. There are still aspects of it which need to be looked at and interpreted in the context of the time, but it has a good underlying message ("be nice to others"). Unfortunately my experience has often been that those who believe and interpret the bible as literal truth (as opposed to just a good moral guide), will be just as likely to use the Old Testament as the New one as place over emphasis on the words which are said not the underlying meaning behind them.

Well yes I too am not always happy with people who do that, and I know that some people will do this, which is why I don't like it when I hear and read about people saying Christians do this and Christians believe that, when simply the case is some Christians believe this and some Christians believe that and some are neither. When reading the New Testament I prefer to take the underlying message behind it such as all people are equal (something which society and the church and other institutions took a while to catch on to) and that it is better to seek rather than hide and to always support your children (something which I have really picked up on since becoming a father).

No I mean like a new original divinly inspired work, rather than a moderisation of an older text.
Oh, that, well, it will be on my blog as soon as I finish figuring out the flash player for the new video that goes with it.

That is not true. The first is only a summary of what will happen in the next chapter. This is common place in the Bible. I have studied those chapters, I suggest you do the same don't take my word for it look at it yourself.

Well, then, why could that not be the same in the case of Aphrodite?
Gods got born in very odd ways, after all.

No, but I'd like to think the world has changed enough that should I be raped I won't be forced to marry my rapist (as recommended by the bible), or that I can't be sold into slavery (again, the bible is fine with this), or that should I choose to do some work on the sabbath, I don't need to be stoned. And let's not even get into issues regarding pre-marital sex, divorce or homosexuality...

You don't understand in the Old Testament people had to do certain things to pay for their sins. However when Jesus Christ died for us on the cross he took all that punishment so now we need only believe on him and follow his teachings and the teachings of his earliest followers. Essentially now the rape victim does not have to marry his/her rapist.

... Ok, just in case I misunderstood this : you are actually endorsing slavery as "not so bad"? You are promoting arranged marriages? And you would condone forcing a woman to marry a guy who just raped her?

Wow. I guess I was a bit naive when I assumed most people had higher moral values these days, and more respect for the rights of other human beings.

No I am not endorsing it but I am asking you to look at it from a non modern day Western point of view.

In cases of rape, the Old Testament of the Bible has an eye for eye attitude toward things in that you get what you get. So if a man raped a girl who was not married he was now responsible for her and therefore had to marry her. But if he did it to a woman who was either engaged or married he must be put to death because he took another man's wife.

I think you've made our point here. That a man can rape and unmarried woman and then make it all fine just by marrying here IS NOT acceptable. What about the victim? What are her rights? The woman is the injured party here, not the husband and not the father, and yet, following biblical morality, she is effectively treated as an object not a person.

This is not even counting the fact that if a betrothed virgin is raped in a city then SHE should also be put to death because clearly if it happened in the city then she wasn't struggling hard enough to stop it.

That is not true. The first is only a summary of what will happen in the next chapter. This is common place in the Bible. I have studied those chapters, I suggest you do the same don't take my word for it look at it yourself.

Hold it, so if the first is a summary of what happens in the second, how does that explain why they are differant?

Isn't that what is commonly called a lie?

Are their any christians on this forum who now what I am talking about.

You have to see friend that in some places in Africa and the Middle East and other parts of Asia, even in Europe they still have a similar thinking. However slavery in the Ancient World was a heck of a lot different from the barbarity of slavery here in the Americas.

...

Well... Roman masters had right of life and death upon their slaves and the offspring thereof (the legal status of a slave was res cogitans: thinking object). Also serfdom/slavery in the Middle Ages, or more recently in tsarist Russia, wasn't quite enjoyable as lifestyle. Nor do I think that the african slaves sold to the Arabs were very happy.

Anyway, it's sure that, as the modern and contemporary society evolved (in the direction of mass society), the conditions of slaves worsened. Take the slaves in the nazi labour camps - they were slaves in a contemporary industrial country, and no slaves have ever been treated worse.

(mmhhh... bit of a threadjack)

Malik Tous

Are their any christians on this forum who now what I am talking about.

No not really.

I do know and think that the Old testament should be looked through Jewish eyes as it is written by Jews for Jews and so has a lot of bias in it, but perhaps you need to make your statements clearer, or just not bother because you won't change their mind the same way they won't change yours.

No I am not endorsing it but I am asking you to look at it from a non modern day Western point of view.

That is the point. We can understand it from a non-modern day point of view, the bible was probably a very good guide to morality back when it was written. But times have changed, and so has our society and our morality with regards to a lot of issues. Therefore does not the bible need updating somewhat or at the least re-interpreting it in light of current society.

No I am not endorsing it but I am asking you to look at it from a non modern day Western point of view.

Rrrright... so first you're proud of the fact that the bible wasn't changed in so many millenia, and now your saying it's only relevant to people with a mindset from way back when?

In regard to all the mentions of LOTR earlier in the thread, and the poster who mentioned the creation story:

Tolkien who was a devout Roman Catholic, said that LOTR was "fundamentally religious and Catholic".

I always thought it was funny that so many people who don't take well to Christianity still love Tolkien.

Hold it, so if the first is a summary of what happens in the second, how does that explain why they are differant?

Isn't that what is commonly called a lie?

This is what you refer to,"So God created man in his image, in the image of God he created him;male and female." Genesis 1:27. Don't you see how undetailed that statement is, it is only a summary.Then in the next chapter it speaks of how God created the man and the woman. Now the summary is only a small passage that marely states that God created male and female it does not say they were made at the same time. Its as simple as this, lets say I said Osama bin Laden bombed the twin towers and George Bush sent troops to Afghanistan. You would not say that the two events happened at the same time. It is the same thing.

That is the point. We can understand it from a non-modern day point of view, the bible was probably a very good guide to morality back when it was written. But times have changed, and so has our society and our morality with regards to a lot of issues. Therefore does not the bible need updating somewhat or at the least re-interpreting it in light of current society.

And that's just one of the problems with Christianty as a whole. They can't change the bible, who can change the word of God and still expect it to command respect(apart from King James), and there has been no new revelation from the Christian God either.

Nope I think Christianty is doomed in the long run.

Ok, let me clear up the OT "Slavery Issue":

The Bible supports slavery as in one captured by battle or raid that works without payment for a certain amount of time. Notice how it denotes RACIAL SLAVERY like with the Egyptians' inslavement of the Hebrews. It DOES NOT support racial slavery, for that would show the sin of favoritism.

Anyway, I find the God of Athiests, Charles Darwin, an interesting subject. The gods of mock religions are interesting too, my favorite being the invisible pink unicorn. Now, a unicorn can be pink and invisible because it is pink, we just can't see it.

I also know quite a bit about the Bible. Starting your own cult is harder than it seems.

Rrrright... so first you're proud of the fact that the bible wasn't changed in so many millenia, and now your saying it's only relevant to people with a mindset from way back when?

Keep in mind this mindset has not left many places in the world, you must understand these customs from another point of view. Some in other countries think boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling is ten times worse as it is damaging another person's body. Most foreigners believe that most of what Americans watch on tv is ungodly(on that point I might partially agree). I am still proud that God maintained his word over the centuries. Because the Bible is not just a pile of religious mumbo jumbo it is one story of God's love for his children.

In regard to all the mentions of LOTR earlier in the thread, and the poster who mentioned the creation story:

Tolkien who was a devout Roman Catholic, said that LOTR was "fundamentally religious and Catholic".

I always thought it was funny that so many people who don't take well to Christianity still love Tolkien.

I love Tolkien, I also love Homer, I also love the Nibelungenlied, but this doesn't make me a believer of the Valar, of the Hellenic pantheon, of the Norse pantheon, or of the Christian trinity.
I recognise Tolkien's work as good FANTASY literature. Fantasy, same root as "phantasm".

Anyway, I find the God of Athiests, Charles Darwin

Feeble attempt at an oxymoron.

This is what you refer to,"So God created man in his image, in the image of God he created him;male and female." Genesis 1:27. Don't you see how undetailed that statement is, it is only a summary.Then in the next chapter it speaks of how God created the man and the woman. Now the summary is only a small passage that marely states that God created male and female it does not say they were made at the same time.

Okay then that is a fair point.

Now I have a question is it possible to create your own thread I would love to do so. If it is possible how could I go about doing it.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead was a fairly recent discovery and did not have time to really change. The Stories of the Greek Gods has probably changed more than any other text. There are many stories of the same account. For instance Aphrodite was said to have been the daughter of Zeus and Dione but in other story she was said to have come out of the foam of the sea. Did you know no one even knows the exact identity of Homer, it was said he was a blind man, he was a woman, and even that he was more than one person. These stories have been changed.

BOTD had plenty of time to change. It was in widespread use for over 1,500 years. It did undergo some evolution too, like the Bible (it's merely one stage in the evolution of these texts, in fact, which predate the BOTD). The reason it is much more pure today is that we have complete copies of the text from it's early origins, and in it's original language. The Bible is different in that the oldest surviving complete New Testament we have dates to 350CE, long after we know the texts to first have been compiled. We also know that the text were heavily edited, yet still claim to be historically accurate.

Greek texts, again, we have surviving texts from contemporary sources. It should also be noted that Greek religion was cult-centre based. I.e. each city had it's own "twist" on legends, myths and stories, some extremely localised. The Greeks saw no problem in the contradictions that different stories from different cult-centres brought up, as Hellenic religion, like Egyptian was and is not dogmatic in nature.

The Bible that mainstream Christianity (not talking about the Catholic Bible or the Eastern Orthodox Bible) uses is the same as that which has always been. Now there are different books out there. The Books in the Bible are in there because for one, the Old Testament Books are the same as what is in the Hebrew Tanach that is why those are in there. The New Testament books were put in the canon because they were made 30-80 years after Jesus' death. Those other books like the Apocrapha were made 100 or more years after Jesus died and they were made by Gnostic groups whose teachings were not in line with Biblical Christianity.

Thus making the point that the Bible is not a "divine" text. What went in was chosen by men centuries after the events described. Ergo, it cannot be taken as literal gospel, so to speak.

Huh? Why would I need that?

And as I understand, gods back then weren't really in charge of people. They just lurked around and played with them now and then when their own soap opera script got too boring. People weren't living "under" the gods, more side by side with occaional interference.

Depends on the religion. Not all gods are the same.

Well they can't have been Gods then, but no I do remember reading in my encyclopedia of Mythology about some of the Celtic gods dying.

because gods die, but that doesn't mean they die in the same way you or I do. Everything dies.

Are we talking Gods here, or are we talking about the Human crafted images/descriptions of Gods?


I think originally it was the gods, and then it kinda of got onto the bit where humans wrote about the gods, and everyone thinks that the writings ARE the gods, or something...

and there has been no new revelation from the Christian God either.

That depends on the denomination, and how you define revelation. For example, as a Catholic, I acknowledge the Divine Mercy was revealed to St. Faustina, and now we have the prayers of Divine Mercy, which previous generations did not have. That's new revelation.

Of course, a person could argue that the general concept of God's mercy is prevalent throughout the scriptures, so in that sense nothing new was revealed. The new revelation would be how to call upon it.

Keep in mind this mindset has not left many places in the world, you must understand these customs from another point of view. Some in other countries think boxing, kickboxing, and wrestling is ten times worse as it is damaging another person's body. Most foreigners believe that most of what Americans watch on tv is ungodly(on that point I might partially agree). I am still proud that God maintained his word over the centuries. Because the Bible is not just a pile of religious mumbo jumbo it is one story of God's love for his children.

So... it's relevant only to people whose moral understandings have not yet evolved far enough? Is that what you're saying?

Now I have a question is it possible to create your own thread I would love to do so. If it is possible how could I go about doing it.

Umm go to General, and hit the New Post button.

That depends on the denomination, and how you define revelation. For example, as a Catholic, I acknowledge the Divine Mercy was revealed to St. Faustina, and now we have the prayers of Divine Mercy, which previous generations did not have. That's new revelation.

Of course, a person could argue that the general concept of God's mercy is prevalent throughout the scriptures, so in that sense nothing new was revealed. The new revelation would be how to call upon it.


And that's another thing about Christianity as a whole. Which denomination? Shit man shouldn't there only be one?

This schizm exists because we can't agree on exactly what the scripture means. Now if only God would make that clearer!

So... it's relevant only to people whose moral understandings have not yet evolved far enough? Is that what you're saying?

That is not fair, there are different cultures and different mindsets.

I think there is no " good god ", each is a dictatorial form of oppression who is created by human society in order to discharge it's members of their duties.

I vote for the force.

It doesn't discriminate, it doesn't punish, it just is. =D

The Bible that mainstream Christianity (not talking about the Catholic Bible or the Eastern Orthodox Bible)

Wait a second. Of just over 2 billion Christians in this world, 1 billion are Catholics, so the idea that Catholicism isn't "mainstream Christianity" is rather ridiculous, especially when you consider that every other denomination sprung from the Roman Church, with the exception of the Orthodox, which is, in regards to the sacraments, the same Church (as far as Rome is concerned -- Orthodox bishops sometimes feel differently).

That is not fair, there are different cultures and different mindsets.

Yes, and some have morals that work well in tribal societies and in very basic conditions, where patriarchy and authoritarianism are more or less a given.

Others need morals that work in highly industrialised mass-society, where a balance between individual rights and social coherence is vital.

The bible offers only the first.

That is not fair, there are different cultures and different mindsets.

And yet still one message, so it stand to reason that some will just not be able to understand that message, and so presumably gets punished for it? Now that is truely unfair.

And that's another thing about Christianity as a whole. Which denomination? Shit man shouldn't there only be one?

This schizm exists because we can't agree on exactly what the scripture means. Now if only God would make that clearer!

Yes, there should be only one. We agree on that.

Keep in mind, though, same case could be made for pagan religions. Shouldn't one of them be the "right" one?

And yet still one message, so it stand to reason that some will just not be able to understand that message, and so presumably gets punished for it? Now that is truely unfair.

Sorry, why would they be punished for it?

Yes, there should be only one. We agree on that.

Keep in mind, though, same case could be made for pagan religions. Shouldn't one of them be the "right" one?

No not at all as Pagan religions are basicly tribal religons. Differant gods for differant tribes.

Sorry, why would they be punished for it?

Well, if I remember my bible lessons at school correctly, the Christian god doesn't take kindly to people who don't obey...

Yes, and some have morals that work well in tribal societies and in very basic conditions, where patriarchy and authoritarianism are more or less a given.

Others need morals that work in highly industrialised mass-society, where a balance between individual rights and social coherence is vital.

The bible offers only the first.

Actually, the Bible clearly offers "a balance between individual rights and social coherence". The Books of Moses offers such a balance, and the theme continues in the Wisdom books, like Proverbs for example. The individual's obligation to his greater community is greatly stressed in the OT.

Well, if I remember my bible lessons at school correctly, the Christian god doesn't take kindly to people who don't obey...

No you are thinking of the Jewish God.

No not really.

I do know and think that the Old testament should be looked through Jewish eyes as it is written by Jews for Jews and so has a lot of bias in it, but perhaps you need to make your statements clearer, or just not bother because you won't change their mind the same way they won't change yours.

I know I may not change anyone's mind today but I can plant a seed in someone today. The Old Testamentis actually not biased at all, as a matter of fact if it were biased the Bible would not denote all the times the Israelites sinned. It would not have had God calling them stiff necked and so on and so forth. The New Testament and the Old go hand in hand they can not do with out each other, the whole bible is really for all people, when Christ died for us he opened God up to everyone not just the Jews. If you understand the Old Testament you will understand the New.

Well, if I remember my bible lessons at school correctly, the Christian god doesn't take kindly to people who don't obey...

But to obey, first you have to "understand". Throughout the OT, God punishes the Israelites for knowing the right thing to do, but blatantly ignoring it. In scripture, He doesn't punish anyone for being uninformed.

No you are thinking of the Jewish God.

Same God. As least as far as us Christians are concerned :)

Sorry, why would they be punished for it?

Ummm isn't that what Christianity preaches? Acccept Jesus as your lord and saviour or go to hell.

Actually, the Bible clearly offers "a balance between individual rights and social coherence". The Books of Moses offers such a balance, and the theme continues in the Wisdom books, like Proverbs for example. The individual's obligation to his greater community is greatly stressed in the OT.

I beg to differ. The bible doesn't really go much for human rights, in most cases they are subordinated to social coherence if they are mentioned at all.
See rights of women, children, etc.

I know I may not change anyone's mind today but I can plant a seed in someone today. The Old Testamentis actually not biased at all, as a matter of fact if it were biased the Bible would not denote all the times the Israelites sinned. It would not have had God calling them stiff necked and so on and so forth. The New Testament and the Old go hand in hand they can not do with out each other, the whole bible is really for all people, when Christ died for us he opened God up to everyone not just the Jews. If you understand the Old Testament you will understand the New.

Well actually if you read the Book of Exodus it talks about how the Hebrews were slaves, now they were paid money for their work and they owned property, they must be the only slaves in the history of the world that were paid, hell they even went on strikes. They wrote it saying they were slaves in order to justify why they left Egypt and wonder around the desert for a long time and when they found a lush place to settle they said they deserve to kick out the original owners of the land because they are superior to all other people. The fact that it shows the sins of the Jews is to prove a point that they should follow the laws of God and of the country which is detailed in Exodus and another book Numbers from memory

I know I may not change anyone's mind today but I can plant a seed in someone today. The Old Testamentis actually not biased at all, as a matter of fact if it were biased the Bible would not denote all the times the Israelites sinned. It would not have had God calling them stiff necked and so on and so forth. The New Testament and the Old go hand in hand they can not do with out each other, the whole bible is really for all people, when Christ died for us he opened God up to everyone not just the Jews. If you understand the Old Testament you will understand the New.

Fatal error.
It is indeed biased in order to present Jews as the Chosen People.

The notion of " Jews are punished because if their sins " was developped bu the clergy as a defense mecanism: when you claim that your god is the only true god and that you are is chosen ones, it's one thing.
But when you loose every war you make and are invaded by all of your neighbours ( the Babylonian, two times, the Egyptien, three times, and I don't even speak of the war with Moab and etc...) logic would be to understand that your religion is utterly flawed.

Then, some genius came up with the idea of " we have been crushed because we were sinners, the day we show ourselves worthy of God, He will help us ".

So every member of the society is going to think that he has to be a good zelot if he wants to avoid bad fate...

A clever initiative.

And that's another thing about Christianity as a whole. Which denomination? Shit man shouldn't there only be one?

Exactly my friend there should only be one Christianity, the Christianity clearly written in the Bible that people choose to discard. Over the centuries people have added their pagan beliefs to the Christian faith and branched off in to different sects. But the true faith has never left, has never left and people are starting see God's original purpose for Christianity.

But to obey, first you have to "understand". Throughout the OT, God punishes the Israelites for knowing the right thing to do, but blatantly ignoring it. In scripture, He doesn't punish anyone for being uninformed.

Being informed and understanding are two very different things.

I have been thouroughly informed on the contents of the bible as a kid, but I can't honestly say that I ever saw and moral merit in following those kind of rules.

I know I may not change anyone's mind today but I can plant a seed in someone today. The Old Testamentis actually not biased at all, as a matter of fact if it were biased the Bible would not denote all the times the Israelites sinned. It would not have had God calling them stiff necked and so on and so forth. The New Testament and the Old go hand in hand they can not do with out each other, the whole bible is really for all people, when Christ died for us he opened God up to everyone not just the Jews. If you understand the Old Testament you will understand the New.

You're right on with that post :) Before I actually read the Bible, I (like many others) couldn't see how the OT and NT truly fit together. But after actually reading the scriptures, I must say it is truly amazing how both parts complement each other.

Being informed and understanding are two very different things.

I have been thouroughly informed on the contents of the bible as a kid, but I can't honestly say that I ever saw and moral merit in following those kind of rules.

You never saw the merit in loving your neighbor? In not stealing, not murdering, etc.?

Ummm isn't that what Christianity preaches? Acccept Jesus as your lord and saviour or go to hell.

Well it depends what Christian preachers you listen to, an American then yes by all means but I have never heard that from any other preacher, you might find yourself in Hell if you have gone on a murderous rampage or raped a lot of people, but not for not believing in him.

You're right on with that post :) Before I actually read the Bible, I (like many others) couldn't see how the OT and NT truly fit together. But after actually reading the scriptures, I must say it is truly amazing how both parts complement each other.


When you want to see coherence, you always ends up finding something...but the fact that the New Testament is a product of a Jewish fanatic in a Jewish society wich faced corruption and military occupation is not enough for you, you need a mystical message explaining this ?

Exactly my friend there should only be one Christianity, the Christianity clearly written in the Bible that people choose to discard. Over the centuries people have added their pagan beliefs to the Christian faith and branched off in to different sects. But the true faith has never left, has never left and people are starting see God's original purpose for Christianity.

Heh yeah Church leaders have added Pagan belifes to Christianity.

Tell me what day do you celebrate as the birthday of Christ?

Same God. As least as far as us Christians are concerned :)

Well no, because according to the Jews God holds them higher than non-Jews aka Gentiles where as according to Christians God holds all people regardless of what they believe and where they are from equal.

Fatal error.
It is indeed biased in order to present Jews as the Chosen People.

The notion of " Jews are punished because if their sins " was developped bu the clergy as a defense mecanism: when you claim that your god is the only true god and that you are is chosen ones, it's one thing.
But when you loose every war you make and are invaded by all of your neighbours ( the Babylonian, two times, the Egyptien, three times, and I don't even speak of the war with Moab and etc...) logic would be to understand that your religion is utterly flawed.

Then, some genius came up with the idea of " we have been crushed because we were sinners, the day we show ourselves worthy of God, He will help us ".

So every member of the society is going to think that he has to be a good zelot if he wants to avoid bad fate...

A clever initiative.

Israel was continually invaded because of where it is in the world the larger nations could care less about the religion. Israel is in between three continents Africa, Asia, and Europe. Of course a smart military man would want that land as it is easy to enter these three continents. The Israelites were chosen by God to carry his Messiah, because of their lineage and his promise to their forefathers. But when Jesus died on the cross, all who plead the blood of Jesus is saved and becomes God's chosen people.

In regard to all the mentions of LOTR earlier in the thread, and the poster who mentioned the creation story:

Tolkien who was a devout Roman Catholic, said that LOTR was "fundamentally religious and Catholic".

I always thought it was funny that so many people who don't take well to Christianity still love Tolkien.

Why wouldn't we, the Gospel was, as he says 'the ultimate fairy story'.

We all love fairy stories.

I beg to differ. The bible doesn't really go much for human rights, in most cases they are subordinated to social coherence if they are mentioned at all.
See rights of women, children, etc.

Have you read the books of the prophets, like Isaiah? Concern for the widows, the orphans, the poor, it's all there. In fact, Isaiah claims that the reason Jerusalem fell to invaders is because God was punishing the Israelites for ignoring all the social concerns of the poor and disadvantaged.

Heh yeah Church leaders have added Pagan belifes to Christianity.

Tell me what day do you celebrate as the birthday of Christ?

No one says you have to celebrate Jesus's brithday. Frankly, it does not matter rather it is more important to always celebrate and remember the price he paid on Calvary and his resurrection from the dead.

Have you read the books of the prophets, like Isaiah? Concern for the widows, the orphans, the poor, it's all there. In fact, Isaiah claims that the reason Jerusalem fell to invaders is because God was punishing the Israelites for ignoring all the social concerns of the poor and disadvantaged.

Amen brother

Well it depends what Christian preachers you listen to, an American then yes by all means but I have never heard that from any other preacher, you might find yourself in Hell if you have gone on a murderous rampage or raped a lot of people, but not for not believing in him.

So you are telling me that even though I have heard about Christ and have knowledge of his teachings, if I choose to not belive that he died to expunge my sins, and choose instead to participate in a non Christian faith, then I will not be punished by the Christian concept of divinity?

And that this is what Christianity teaches?

No one says you have to celebrate Jesus's brithday. Frankly, it does not matter rather it is more important to always celebrate and remember the price he paid on Calvary and his resurrection from the dead.

That is not what I asked. I asked what day do you celebrate, or if you prefer belive, is the birth date of the Christ?

So you are telling me that even though I have heard about Christ and have knowledge of his teachings, if I choose to not belive that he died to expunge my sins, and choose instead to participate in a non Christian faith, then I will not be punished by the Christian concept of divinity?

And that this is what Christianity teaches?

Why would you be punished?

And as I say one of the teachings of Christ was that all people are equal regardless of what they believed in and where they were from.

Well actually if you read the Book of Exodus it talks about how the Hebrews were slaves, now they were paid money for their work and they owned property, they must be the only slaves in the history of the world that were paid, hell they even went on strikes. They wrote it saying they were slaves in order to justify why they left Egypt and wonder around the desert for a long time and when they found a lush place to settle they said they deserve to kick out the original owners of the land because they are superior to all other people. The fact that it shows the sins of the Jews is to prove a point that they should follow the laws of God and of the country which is detailed in Exodus and another book Numbers from memory

No to do special jobs they got paid not for their overall work. Same in America, slaves did their work but were paid(if they had somewhat good masters) for odd jobs.

You never saw the merit in loving your neighbor? In not stealing, not murdering, etc.?

Have you met my neighbours? Thought not.

As for not stealing and not killing, I knew that much before I even heard of the bible. There's this very ancient, yet very, very effective thing called the "Golden Rule", which is a nice description for the very basis of society.

That is not what I asked. I asked what day do you celebrate, or if you prefer belive, is the birth date of the Christ?

It is celebrated on December 25th something which you already know, and I know where you are going with this. But it is known that he probably was not born on this day.

So you are telling me that even though I have heard about Christ and have knowledge of his teachings, if I choose to not belive that he died to expunge my sins, and choose instead to participate in a non Christian faith, then I will not be punished by the Christian concept of divinity?

And that this is what Christianity teaches?

Punished only in the sense that you'd be separated (by your own choice) from God. That's what we Catholics are taught, that hell is self-imposed seperation from God -- something you do to yourself, not something God does to you. The pain comes into the picture when you realize what you missed out on: eternity in the presence of a loving God.

That is not what I asked. I asked what day do you celebrate, or if you prefer belive, is the birth date of the Christ?

I do not know when Jesus was born frankly. We celebrate his birth on December 25 but scientists say most likely he was born in the spring. Does it matter?

Punished only in the sense that you'd be separated (by your own choice) from God. That's what we Catholics are taught, that hell is self-imposed seperation from God -- something you do to yourself, not something God does to you. The pain comes into the picture when you realize what you missed out on: eternity in the presence of a loving God.

I was going to get to that thanks. lol

Have you met my neighbours? Thought not.



Lol :p

No to do special jobs they got paid not for their overall work. Same in America, slaves did their work but were paid(if they had somewhat good masters) for odd jobs.

It is still written for Jews by Jews and does tell the Jewish history ( because a lot of it is just that) from the Jewish perspective, there is bias in it. Such as why they were entitled to take land away from other people.

Have you met my neighbours? Thought not.

As for not stealing and not killing, I knew that much before I even heard of the bible. There's this very ancient, yet very, very effective thing called the "Golden Rule", which is a nice description for the very basis of society.

Just a question why can't they place it in their beliefs? And no they don't believe that they were the ones that came up with it.

Have you read the books of the prophets, like Isaiah? Concern for the widows, the orphans, the poor, it's all there. In fact, Isaiah claims that the reason Jerusalem fell to invaders is because God was punishing the Israelites for ignoring all the social concerns of the poor and disadvantaged.

Concern, hm? Not quite enough to create a set of laws for them, though?
A bit like a charity concert by the sounds of it. You don't really achieve anything, but you can say that you voiced your concern and then go home feeling all warm and righteous...

Just a question why can't they place it in their beliefs? And no they don't believe that they were the ones that came up with it.

Sure they can place it there. Everybody does, anyway.
Doesn't mean that following the rest of what they say is a very good idea, overall.

Concern, hm? Not quite enough to create a set of laws for them, though?
A bit like a charity concert by the sounds of it. You don't really achieve anything, but you can say that you voiced your concern and then go home feeling all warm and righteous...

I never knew Isiah was a lawmaker, was he I don't know?

Sure they can place it there. Everybody does, anyway.
Doesn't mean that following the rest of what they say is a very good idea, overall.

I never said it was.

Religion is a necessary evil. It (usually) helps to keep balance and gives some people a purpose to their life.

I personally don't have a religion. I'm not atheist either (the worship of nothing). If religion were a puzzle piece that makes up your person as a whole, my box only came with 399 pieces.

But I suppose if I had to pick, Jesus was decently cool. The Greek Gods are pretty cool too. I especially enjoy the story of Apollo and Artemis.

Also, if you want an interesting story, go look up about Adam's first wife - Lillith. =)

Israel was continually invaded because of where it is in the world the larger nations could care less about the religion. Israel is in between three continents Africa, Asia, and Europe. Of course a smart military man would want that land as it is easy to enter these three continents. The Israelites were chosen by God to carry his Messiah, because of their lineage and his promise to their forefathers. But when Jesus died on the cross, all who plead the blood of Jesus is saved and becomes God's chosen people.

What do you mean by " the larger nations could care less about religion " ?
I absolutly don't understand.
I don't think that the Babylonian or the Egyptian could be considered as less religious than were the ancient Jews...after all, half of the Bible came from those religions ( exemple: the Flood, Mesopotamian myth wich is copied in the Bible nearly word for word, just changing the name of the characters and the final message... )

Your second part about the Messiah and Jesus is your point of view, lots of religions claimed the same thing, there was just a bunch who was more succesfull.

Don't forget that the Jews were polytheist until the Fifth century BC and the exil of some elites, who then created the idea of an omnipotent god in order of explaining their defeat and in a traditionnal communatarian phenomenom.

They were indeed really successfull, doesn't mean that was they said wasn't absolut bullshit.

Why wouldn't we, the Gospel was, as he says 'the ultimate fairy story'.

We all love fairy stories.

Sure do. But I look at fairy stories the way GK Chesterton (another Catholic) explained them. The point isn't to reveal the ugliness in the world (symbolized by the monsters and the like). The point of any good fairy tale is to let the child know that the darkness can be defeated, and in that sense, yes, Christianity is the greatest of the fairy tales, because Christ conquers death itself.

Sure do. But I look at fairy stories the way GK Chesterton (another Catholic) explained them. The point isn't to reveal the ugliness in the world (symbolized by the monsters and the like). The point of any good fairy tale is to let the child know that the darkness can be defeated, and in that sense, yes, Christianity is the greatest of the fairy tales, because Christ conquers death itself.

Still a fairy tale.

Why would you be punished?

And as I say one of the teachings of Christ was that all people are equal regardless of what they believed in and where they were from.

So you ARE telling me that I can get away with not being Christian, and still go to heaven?

That is not what I asked. I asked what day do you celebrate, or if you prefer belive, is the birth date of the Christ?

I understand where you are going with this. I know that Christmas was based off of other pagan holidays, but personally I don't mind if Christians decide to change a pagan holiday to fit Christian beliefs. Just like Halloween, at my old church they used to have a party for those Christian kids who do not celebrate the holiday.

I never knew Isiah was a lawmaker, was he I don't know?

Not that I'm aware of. But that's pretty much the point, isn't it?
Like the bishop of Trim (I think it was) preaching against rampant consumerism to pilgrims who just scrambled up a mountain on bare feet, and then he drives off in a bigass Mercedes...
Sure, you can always voice concern. It's always good for public opinion. Just as long as you don't actually have to DO anything. Like, you know, inconveniencing patriarchs by giving their wives and daughters equal rights.

Concern, hm? Not quite enough to create a set of laws for them, though?
A bit like a charity concert by the sounds of it. You don't really achieve anything, but you can say that you voiced your concern and then go home feeling all warm and righteous...

That's the point. Regardless of his protests (and the protests of other prophets), the king in Jersusalem did nothing about the terrible social problems. Because society mistreated the least among it, and the monarchy let it happen, God punished the city.

Well, that, and the fact the monarchs kept erecting pagan altars in the Great Temple, and encouraging the worship of deities who required everything from temple prostitution to child sacrifice.

Punished only in the sense that you'd be separated (by your own choice) from God. That's what we Catholics are taught, that hell is self-imposed seperation from God -- something you do to yourself, not something God does to you. The pain comes into the picture when you realize what you missed out on: eternity in the presence of a loving God.

So God is everywhere, but it is possible to be seperated from God? Naaaa I don't buy that, that is also not the image of a loving God.

I much prefer the idea that God so loved his creation that God provied many ways, and many chances for all to come to God.

It is celebrated on December 25th something which you already know, and I know where you are going with this. But it is known that he probably was not born on this day.

Pray tell, where am I going with this?

So you ARE telling me that I can get away with not being Christian, and still go to heaven?

Yes, why are you surprised at this?

I really don't understand where you are trying to go with this unless you plan to prove me wrong because it goes against what you believe.

I do not know when Jesus was born frankly. We celebrate his birth on December 25 but scientists say most likely he was born in the spring. Does it matter?

Yes it does, if you claim that you do not belive any Pagan influences that have been worked into Christianty, and yet you still belive this one.

Not that I'm aware of. But that's pretty much the point, isn't it?
Like the bishop of Trim (I think it was) preaching against rampant consumerism to pilgrims who just scrambled up a mountain on bare feet, and then he drives off in a bigass Mercedes...
Sure, you can always voice concern. It's always good for public opinion. Just as long as you don't actually have to DO anything. Like, you know, inconveniencing patriarchs by giving their wives and daughters equal rights.

So if I talk about how the government is wrong in invading Iraq, that somehow isn't good despite the fact that I can't really do much about them changing their current course.

So God is everywhere, but it is possible to be seperated from God? Naaaa I don't buy that, that is also not the image of a loving God.

I much prefer the idea that God so loved his creation that God provied many ways, and many chances for all to come to God.

Why is that not loving? Your mother loves you and wants the best for you (I assume), but if you refuse to ackowldge her existence, then she can be standing in the room right next you, feeling nothing but love in her heart, but nonetheless a great chasm of separation exists.

That's the point. Regardless of his protests (and the protests of other prophets), the king in Jersusalem did nothing about the terrible social problems. Because society mistreated the least among it, and the monarchy let it happen, God punished the city.

Well, that, and the fact the monarchs kept erecting pagan altars in the Great Temple, and encouraging the worship of deities who required everything from temple prostitution to child sacrifice.

Well, I honestly can't remember where in the bible it says "make sure orphans have enough to eat, and widows can do decent work for their livings and get the same wages as men".

I think god was more pissed off about the thing with the other deities. Always seems to get him going much faster than something as trivial as human rights.

Pray tell, where am I going with this?

Ok I think I know where you are going, or instead of trying to be smartarse about it now that I have told answered your question to the other poster you can continue with what you are going to say. Though I think it has something to do with how pagan celebrations were merged with Christianity celebrations care to give me marks out of 10 for accuracy?

So if I talk about how the government is wrong in invading Iraq, that somehow isn't good despite the fact that I can't really do much about them changing their current course.

As far as I know, you're neither a prophet nor a god. So no, nobody can expect you to be able to do much about it. ;)

As far as I know, you're neither a prophet nor a god. So no, nobody can expect you to be able to do much about it. ;)

But what is so special about a prophet?

And I am a God if you refuse to believe in me doesn't stop me from posting :D

Yes it does, if you claim that you do not belive any Pagan influences that have been worked into Christianty, and yet you still belive this one.

If you mean there's pagan influence in that early Christians changed the date of celebration to the same date as a pagan celebration, then yes, there's pagan influence. On the date.

Just like we call Friday "Friday" because it comes from Freya's Day (Norse mythology). I'm not sure I see the problem.

So God is everywhere, but it is possible to be seperated from God? Naaaa I don't buy that, that is also not the image of a loving God.

I much prefer the idea that God so loved his creation that God provied many ways, and many chances for all to come to God.

Why would he do that? You have to understand there are other powers and principalities out there opposed to God. And he has set down one path directly to himself. There is only one God why would there be more than one way to him. And if there is only one God and one faith, think about where the others most lead to. Also God loved us so much he took on flesh for us and lived with us for 33 years in the person of Jesus Christ. Not only did he greatly lower his position, the Bible says he made himself lower than even the angels he created and he lowered himself to that of a servant of men. Not only did he do this but he lived a perfect sinless life, so he could bare our sins on the cross. So now we don't have die for own sins, we don't have to give sacrifices, we don't need an intermediary between us and God. We are under a new covenant.

Well, I honestly can't remember where in the bible it says "make sure orphans have enough to eat, and widows can do decent work for their livings and get the same wages as men".

I think god was more pissed off about the thing with the other deities. Always seems to get him going much faster than something as trivial as human rights.

Then you better actually read the Bible :)

I'll go get the quotes for you now, though. BRB.

"Be kind to widows, orphans, fatherless children and strangers. Share whatever you have with them." Deuteronomy 24:17-21

"Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked." Psalms 82:3-4

Yes, why are you surprised at this?

I really don't understand where you are trying to go with this unless you plan to prove me wrong because it goes against what you believe.

I am suppried, because that is not what I learnt about Christianity, and frankly no Christian has ever told me this before.

So bearing that in mind, either you are not like other Christians, or the majority of what I learnt about Christianity is plainly wrong, or you are wrong.

So when Jesus says, ' I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'

What does that mean?

Yes, why are you surprised at this?

I really don't understand where you are trying to go with this unless you plan to prove me wrong because it goes against what you believe.

No this is not true. Because of the curse of original sin we are all bound to go to hell. God is not sending us there. God created Hell as a place for sin, therefore it was originally intended Satan and his demons, however when Adam sinned we are all born with a sinful nature and are all hellbound. Bound the blood of Jesus Christ is the ticket off the train to hell if you except it. Yet you are not held accountable for the things you do not know, so if your an innocent child you will still go to heaven without believing on Jesus, the same for the man who lives out in the wilderness and never even heard of the Gospel.

I am suppried, because that is not what I learnt about Christianity, and frankly no Christian has ever told me this before.

So bearing that in mind, either you are not like other Christians, or the majority of what I learnt about Christianity is plainly wrong, or you are wrong.

So when Jesus says, ' I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'

What does that mean?

It means the Son is the reflection of the Father. As Jesus said, if you've seen him, you've seen the Father, in that you've seen God's true nature, that is, a god who demands mercy, not ritual sacrifice.

Why is that not loving? Your mother loves you and wants the best for you (I assume), but if you refuse to ackowldge her existence, then she can be standing in the room right next you, feeling nothing but love in her heart, but nonetheless a great chasm of separation exists.

And she would get in my face and make sure I acknowledge her. As for seperation, no not really, no matter how you swing it, I come from my mother whether I aknowldge that or not, it will always be true.

Also you did not answer my question. If God is everywhere, how can one be seperated from God?

I am suppried, because that is not what I learnt about Christianity, and frankly no Christian has ever told me this before.

So bearing that in mind, either you are not like other Christians, or the majority of what I learnt about Christianity is plainly wrong, or you are wrong.

So when Jesus says, ' I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'

What does that mean?

Exactly what it sounds like you are right.

Ok I think I know where you are going, or instead of trying to be smartarse about it now that I have told answered your question to the other poster you can continue with what you are going to say. Though I think it has something to do with how pagan celebrations were merged with Christianity celebrations care to give me marks out of 10 for accuracy?

Almost, it was more to do with Nana's claim to not belive any of the Pagan influenses that have crept into Christianity, yet he has admitted to not only beliving this(sorta) but alos not minding it.

And she would get in my face and make sure I acknowledge her. As for seperation, no not really, no matter how you swing it, I come from my mother whether I aknowldge that or not, it will always be true.

Also you did not answer my question. If God is everywhere, how can one be seperated from God?

Think about it this way, if you have a house in the middle of the ocean underwater. The water is all around, but you are not affected because the door is shut. Same thing with God you must open the door of your heart to God. The Bible says that Jesus is knocking at the door to your heart.

I am suppried, because that is not what I learnt about Christianity, and frankly no Christian has ever told me this before.

So bearing that in mind, either you are not like other Christians, or the majority of what I learnt about Christianity is plainly wrong, or you are wrong.

So when Jesus says, ' I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me'

What does that mean?

No I am not like other Christians espeicially some American Christians whom I dislike almost as much as you. And yes I may be wrong but then so is my Bishop and priests which is what I learnt from them.

But as I say God still loves you even if you hate him or don't even believe that he exists, and one of the fundamental teachings of Christianity is this and that all people are equal. Yes I know a lot of Christians didn't follow this important tenet, yes I understand that it is not right that they didn't and many were and are hypocrites while others are only human and forget about what the claim to believe in.

But as I say maybe I am wrong, so too were the the members of the clergy that told me this I don't know, but I can tell you I am vastly different to the many other Christians you have met.

As for your last passage I cannot tell you, it was not something I thought of when I had the chance to be able to speak, and I won't claim that I know everything.

Almost, it was more to do with Nana's claim to not belive any of the Pagan influenses that have crept into Christianity, yet he has admitted to not only beliving this(sorta) but alos not minding it.

I don't believe in the holiday I believe in Jesus Christ. I am not worshipping idols and I am not bowing down to graven images. I am not doing anything wrong in innocently celebrating the Lord's birthday.

And she would get in my face and make sure I acknowledge her. As for seperation, no not really, no matter how you swing it, I come from my mother whether I aknowldge that or not, it will always be true.

Also you did not answer my question. If God is everywhere, how can one be seperated from God?

I did answer it. I wrote about separation in the heart.

In the OT, God talks about His law written in our hearts. As Catholics, we worships the Sacred Heart, revere Mary's Immaculate heart. Christianity is a faith of the heart.

Think about it this way, if you have a house in the middle of the ocean underwater. The water is all around, but you are not affected because the door is shut. Same thing with God you must open the door of your heart to God. The Bible says that Jesus is knocking at the door to your heart.

Poor analogy after all we don't want to die so why would we open the door.

Poor analogy after all we don't want to die so why would we open the door.

LOL :) Then think of the fresh air, rather than water.

No this is not true. Because of the curse of original sin we are all bound to go to hell. God is not sending us there. God created Hell as a place for sin, therefore it was originally intended Satan and his demons, however when Adam sinned we are all born with a sinful nature and are all hellbound. Bound the blood of Jesus Christ is the ticket off the train to hell if you except it. Yet you are not held accountable for the things you do not know, so if your an innocent child you will still go to heaven without believing on Jesus, the same for the man who lives out in the wilderness and never even heard of the Gospel.

Even if your first bit is true Jesus Christ died for our sins which which means everyone regardless of wether we believe in him or not or God or not, all sins of men (which means everybody just like we might say mankind).