NationStates Jolt Archive


Academic freedom of speech

Eofaerwic
30-07-2008, 16:11
Now here's an interesting tale I heard at one of the conferences I was at over the summer. I'm going to tell this without names or reference to the specific subject because as far as I'm aware it is still an on-going matter. But it does raise an interesting issue about academic freedom of speech.

In this particular psychological field there is an assessment tool. It was created by what is generally considered one of the founding fathers of the field, let us call him H., and has, unfortunately to some minds, become synonymous with the concept it is meant to be assessing. This is an issue because in psychology measurement tools are rarely perfect measures of the underlying trait.

One of the other big names in this particular field, let us call him C., has been criticising the over-use of this tool, it's structure and the fact that the concept we're trying to measure is probably bigger than just what this assessment tool is measuring. Not that much a big deal, there are always these arguments in academia and criticism and increased research can only help develop better tools and better understanding. Still this argument has been going back and forth between the two camps for quite some time.

Finally, recently C. has written and had accepted a paper summarising many of the issues surrounding this particular field, and arguing that more, diverse tools and needed and that we need to start rethinking our conceptualisation. In many ways a summing up of many of his previous arguments into a single paper. Through various means H. got hold of this paper prior to publishing and has, through pressure and threats, first got the publishers to accept him writing a rebuttal to be published in the same issue as this paper (this is not done in academic writing) but when they were resistant to doing this, has threatened to sue both the authors and the publishers for defamation, and though the court case does not appear to be going through, this very threat has delayed the publication of the paper by close to a year now.

Now personally as a young, and possible naive academic just starting out in my career, I am actually quite horrified at this. It appears to be going against pretty much all the principles of scientific research and no one person in a field should have this much power to stifle academic opposition. Yet this appears to happen. What do other people think of situations such as these and has anyone heard of it happening in other fields, or is this quite an unfortunate one-off?
Rambhutan
30-07-2008, 16:18
Unfortunately this is not uncommon. It is difficult to challenge orthodox theory until the person who propounded it is dead.
Velka Morava
30-07-2008, 16:19
All I can say is that H. is a narcisist.
Peepelonia
30-07-2008, 16:32
All I can say is that H. is a narcisist.

And c is quite small.
Trans Fatty Acids
30-07-2008, 16:32
I've never heard of a lawsuit holding up publication, but I've heard of pressure being applied in other, less overt ways that are very hard to prove, such as putting a quiet word out that Paper X should not pass the peer review process no matter what its merits are. It's dreadful, but it does happen.
Call to power
30-07-2008, 18:05
welcome to science :)
Conserative Morality
30-07-2008, 18:21
I have no more faith in man after reading that. *Turns to the (Soda) bottle*
Damor
30-07-2008, 18:28
Well, if "H" is having his theory attacked, it would seem fair enough that he get's a chance to defend it, in the same edition of the journal. Such things are not unheard of. Bullying the editors into it, though, isn't really nice.
But then, scientific practice is hardly the ideal you're taught at school an university. Scientists are people too, with the same arrogance and tantrums others may succumb to. And an authority in a field will hardly want to be displaced without a good fight.

Of course, in this day and age, you could just put a pre-publication online. And if it's any good, people will cite it regardless of whether it has been published in the journal yet.
Hotwife
30-07-2008, 19:18
Now here's an interesting tale I heard at one of the conferences I was at over the summer. I'm going to tell this without names or reference to the specific subject because as far as I'm aware it is still an on-going matter. But it does raise an interesting issue about academic freedom of speech.

In this particular psychological field there is an assessment tool. It was created by what is generally considered one of the founding fathers of the field, let us call him H., and has, unfortunately to some minds, become synonymous with the concept it is meant to be assessing. This is an issue because in psychology measurement tools are rarely perfect measures of the underlying trait.

One of the other big names in this particular field, let us call him C., has been criticising the over-use of this tool, it's structure and the fact that the concept we're trying to measure is probably bigger than just what this assessment tool is measuring. Not that much a big deal, there are always these arguments in academia and criticism and increased research can only help develop better tools and better understanding. Still this argument has been going back and forth between the two camps for quite some time.

Finally, recently C. has written and had accepted a paper summarising many of the issues surrounding this particular field, and arguing that more, diverse tools and needed and that we need to start rethinking our conceptualisation. In many ways a summing up of many of his previous arguments into a single paper. Through various means H. got hold of this paper prior to publishing and has, through pressure and threats, first got the publishers to accept him writing a rebuttal to be published in the same issue as this paper (this is not done in academic writing) but when they were resistant to doing this, has threatened to sue both the authors and the publishers for defamation, and though the court case does not appear to be going through, this very threat has delayed the publication of the paper by close to a year now.

Now personally as a young, and possible naive academic just starting out in my career, I am actually quite horrified at this. It appears to be going against pretty much all the principles of scientific research and no one person in a field should have this much power to stifle academic opposition. Yet this appears to happen. What do other people think of situations such as these and has anyone heard of it happening in other fields, or is this quite an unfortunate one-off?

http://wwwcdf.pd.infn.it/~loreti/science.html

During the Middle Ages there were all kinds of crazy ideas, such as that a piece of rhinoceros horn would increase potency. Then a method was discovered for separating the ideas -- which was to try one to see if it worked, and if it didn't work, to eliminate it. This method became organized, of course, into science. And it developed very well, so that we are now in the scientific age. It is such a scientific age, in fact, that we have difficulty in understanding how witch doctors could ever have existed, when nothing that they proposed ever really worked -- or very little of it did.

But even today I meet lots of people who sooner or later get me into a conversation about UFO's, or astrology, or some form of mysticism, expanded consciousness, new types of awareness, ESP, and so forth. And I've concluded that it's not a scientific world.

Most people believe so many wonderful things that I decided to investigate why they did. And what has been referred to as my curiosity for investigation has landed me in a difficulty where I found so much junk that I'm overwhelmed. First I started out by investigating various ideas of mysticism and mystic experiences. I went into isolation tanks and got many hours of hallucinations, so I know something about that. Then I went to Esalen, which is a hotbed of this kind of thought (it's a wonderful place; you should go visit there). Then I became overwhelmed. I didn't realize how MUCH there was.

At Esalen there are some large baths fed by hot springs situated on a ledge about thirty feet above the ocean. One of my most pleasurable experiences has been to sit in one of those baths and watch the waves crashing onto the rocky slope below, to gaze into the clear blue sky above, and to study a beautiful nude as she quietly appears and settles into the bath with me.

One time I sat down in a bath where there was a beatiful girl sitting with a guy who didn't seem to know her. Right away I began thinking, "Gee! How am I gonna get started talking to this beautiful nude woman?"

I'm trying to figure out what to say, when the guy says to her, "I'm, uh, studying massage. Could I practice on you?"

"Sure", she says. They get out of the bath and she lies down on a massage table nearby.

I think to myself, "What a nifty line! I can never think of anything like that!" He starts to rub her big toe. "I think I feel it", he says. "I feel a kind of dent -- is that the pituitary?"

I blurt out, "You're a helluva long way from the pituitary, man!"

They looked at me, horrified -- I had blown my cover -- and said, "It's reflexology!"

I quickly closed my eyes and appeared to be meditating.

That's just an example of the kind of things that overwhelm me. I also looked into extrasensory perception, and PSI phenomena, and the latest craze there was Uri Geller, a man who is supposed to be able to bend keys by rubbing them with his finger. So I went to his hotel room, on his invitation, to see a demonstration of both mindreading and bending keys. He didn't do any mindreading that succeeded; nobody can read my mind, I guess. And my boy held a key and Geller rubbed it, and nothing happened. Then he told us it works better under water, and so you can picture all of us standing in the bathroom with the water turned on and the key under it, and him rubbing the key with his finger. Nothing happened. So I was unable to investigate that phenomenon.

But then I began to think, what else is there that we believe? (And I thought then about the witch doctors, and how easy it would have been to check on them by noticing that nothing really worked.) So I found things that even more people believe, such as that we have some knowledge of how to educate. There are big schools of reading methods and mathematics methods, and so forth, but if you notice, you'll see the reading scores keep going down -- or hardly going up -- in spite of the fact that we continually use these same people to improve the methods. There's a witch doctor remedy that doesn't work. It ought to be looked into; how do they know that their method should work? Another example is how to treat criminals. We obviously have made no progress -- lots of theory, but no progress -- in decreasing the amount of crime by the method that we use to handle criminals.

Yet these things are said to be scientific. We study them. And I think ordinary people with commonsense ideas are intimidated by this pseudoscience. A teacher who has some good idea of how to teach her children to read is forced by the school system to do it some other way -- or is even fooled by the school system into thinking that her method is not necessarily a good one. Or a parent of bad boys, after disciplining them in one way or another, feels guilty for the rest of her life because she didn't do "the right thing", according to the experts.

So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and science that isn't science.

I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to make things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head to headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas -- he's the controller -- and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.

Now it behooves me, of course, to tell you what they're missing. But it would be just about as difficult to explain to the South Sea islanders how they have to arrange things so that they get some wealth in their system. It is not something simple like telling them how to improve the shapes of the earphones. But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in cargo cult science. That is the idea that we all hope you have learned in studying science in school -- we never say explicitly what this is, but just hope that you catch on by all the examples of scientific investigation. It is interesting, therefore, to bring it out now and speak of it explicitly. It's a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty -- a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you're doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid -- not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you've eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked -- to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can -- if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong -- to explain it. If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it. There is also a more subtle problem. When you have put a lot of ideas together to make an elaborate theory, you want to make sure, when explaining what it fits, that those things it fits are not just the things that gave you the idea for the theory; but that the finished theory makes something else come out right, in addition.

In summary, the idea is to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgement in one particular direction or another.

The easiest way to explain this idea is to contrast it, for example, with advertising. Last night I heard that Wesson oil doesn't soak through food. Well, that's true. It's not dishonest; but the thing I'm talking about is not just a matter of not being dishonest; it's a matter of scientific integrity, which is another level. The fact that should be added to that advertising statement is that no oils soak through food, if operated at a certain temperature. If operated at another temperature, they all will -- including Wesson oil. So it's the implication which has been conveyed, not the fact, which is true, and the difference is what we have to deal with.

We've learned from experience that the truth will come out. Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right. Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory. And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work. And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in cargo cult science.

A great deal of their difficulty is, of course, the difficulty of the subject and the inapplicability of the scientific method to the subject. Nevertheless, it should be remarked that this is not the only difficulty. That's why the planes don't land -- but they don't land.

We have learned a lot from experience about how to handle some of the ways we fool ourselves. One example: Millikan measured the charge on an electron by an experiment with falling oil drops, and got an answer which we now know not to be quite right. It's a little bit off because he had the incorrect value for the viscosity of air. It's interesting to look at the history of measurements of the charge of an electron, after Millikan. If you plot them as a function of time, you find that one is a little bit bigger than Millikan's, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, and the next one's a little bit bigger than that, until finally they settle down to a number which is higher.

Why didn't they discover the new number was higher right away? It's a thing that scientists are ashamed of -- this history -- because it's apparent that people did things like this: when they got a number that was too high above Millikan's, they thought something must be wrong -- and they would look for and find a reason why something might be wrong. When they got a number close to Millikan's value they didn't look so hard. And so they eliminated the numbers that were too far off, and did other things like that. We've learned those tricks nowadays, and now we don't have that kind of a disease.

But this long history of learning how to not fool ourselves -- of having utter scientific integrity -- is, I'm sorry to say, something that we haven't specifically included in any particular course that I know of. We just hope you've caught on by osmosis

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to fool other scientists. You just have to be honest in a conventional way after that.

I would like to add something that's not essential to the science, but something I kind of believe, which is that you should not fool the layman when you're talking as a scientist. I am not trying to tell you what to do about cheating on your wife, or fooling your girlfriend, or something like that, when you're not trying to be a scientist, but just trying to be an ordinary human being. We'll leave those problems up to you and your rabbi. I'm talking about a specific, extra type of integrity that is not lying, but bending over backwards to show how you're maybe wrong, that you ought to have when acting as a scientist. And this is our responsibility as scientists, certainly to other scientists, and I think to laymen.

For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of his work were. "Well", I said, "there aren't any". He said, "Yes, but then we won't get support for more research of this kind". I think that's kind of dishonest. If you're representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you're doing -- and if they don't support you under those circumstances, then that's their decision.

One example of the principle is this: If you've made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish BOTH kinds of results.

I say that's also important in giving certain types of government advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it would be better in some other state. If you don't publish such a result, it seems to me you're not giving scientific advice. You're being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don't publish at all. That's not giving scientific advice.

Other kinds of errors are more characteristic of poor science. When I was at Cornell, I often talked to the people in the psychology department. One of the students told me she wanted to do an experiment that went something like this -- it had been found by others that under certain circumstances, X, rats did something, A. She was curious as to whether, if she changed the circumstances to Y, they would still do A. So her proposal was to do the experiment under circumstances Y and see if they still did A.

I explained to her that it was necessary first to repeat in her laboratory the experiment of the other person -- to do it under condition X to see if she could also get result A, and then change to Y and see if A changed. Then she would know the the real difference was the thing she thought she had under control.

She was very delighted with this new idea, and went to her professor. And his reply was, no, you cannot do that, because the experiment has already been done and you would be wasting time. This was in about 1947 or so, and it seems to have been the general policy then to not try to repeat psychological experiments, but only to change the conditions and see what happened.

Nowadays, there's a certain danger of the same thing happening, even in the famous field of physics. I was shocked to hear of an experiment being done at the big accelerator at the National Accelerator Laboratory, where a person used deuterium. In order to compare his heavy hydrogen results to what might happen with light hydrogen, he had to use data from someone else's experiment on light hydrogen, which was done on a different apparatus. When asked why, he said it was because he couldn't get time on the program (because there's so little time and it's such expensive apparatus) to do the experiment with light hydrogen on this apparatus because there wouldn't be any new result. And so the men in charge of programs at NAL are so anxious for new results, in order to get more money to keep the thing going for public relations purposes, they are destroying -- possibly -- the value of the experiments themselves, which is the whole purpose of the thing. It is often hard for the experimenters there to complete their work as their scientific integrity demands.

All experiments in psychology are not of this type, however. For example, there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds of mazes, and so on -- with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food was. He wanted to see if he could train the rats to go in at the third door down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the door where the food had been the time before.

The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe the rats were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and still the rats could tell.

He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go in the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell.

Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A-number-one experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat-running experiments sensible, because it uncovers that clues that the rat is really using -- not what you think it's using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat-running.

I looked up the subsequent history of this research. The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. They never used any of his criteria of putting the corridor on sand, or being very careful. They just went right on running the rats in the same old way, and paid no attention to the great discoveries of Mr. Young, and his papers are not referred to, because he didn't discover anything about the rats. In fact, he discovered all the things you have to do to discover something about rats. But not paying attention to experiments like that is a characteristic example of cargo cult science.

Another example is the ESP experiments of Mr. Rhine, and other people. As various people have made criticisms -- and they themselves have made criticisms of their own experiments -- they improve the techniques so that the effects are smaller, and smaller, and smaller until they gradually disappear. All the para-psychologists are looking for some experiment that can be repeated -- that you can do again and get the same effect -- statistically, even. They run a million rats -- no, it's people this time -- they do a lot of things are get a certain statistical effect. Next time they try it they don't get it any more. And now you find a man saying that is is an irrelevant demand to expect a repeatable experiment. This is science?

This man also speaks about a new institution, in a talk in which he was resigning as Director of the Institute of Parapsychology. And, in telling people what to do next, he says that one of things they have to do is be sure to only train students who have shown their ability to get PSI results to an acceptable extent -- not to waste their time on those ambitious and interested students who get only chance results. It is very dangerous to have such a policy in teaching -- to teach students only how to get certain results, rather than how to do an experiment with scientific integrity.

So I have just one wish for you -- the good luck to be somewhere where you are free to maintain the kind of integrity I have described, and where you do not feel forced by a need to maintain your position in the organization, or financial support, or so on, to lose your integrity. May you have that freedom.
Veblenia
30-07-2008, 19:27
<snip>

Through various means H. got hold of this paper prior to publishing and has, through pressure and threats, first got the publishers to accept him writing a rebuttal to be published in the same issue as this paper (this is not done in academic writing) but when they were resistant to doing this, has threatened to sue both the authors and the publishers for defamation, and though the court case does not appear to be going through, this very threat has delayed the publication of the paper by close to a year now.


Is that an unusual practise in psychology? My experience is that it happens fairly regularly in history; in fact I was under the impression that journal editors contact prominent scholars that are having their work challenged and invite them to rebut.

The litigation does seem a little extreme, though.
Neo Bretonnia
30-07-2008, 19:29
You mean... scientists aren't perfect paragons of virtue and can sometimes lose objectivity?

Hm.
Eofaerwic
30-07-2008, 19:32
Is that an unusual practise in psychology? My experience is that it happens fairly regularly in history; in fact I was under the impression that journal editors contact prominent scholars that are having their work challenged and invite them to rebut.

The litigation does seem a little extreme, though.

From what I can tell it's very rare in psychology. As a rule once something is published they will then be invited to make a rebuttal (or may submit one) but generally not in the same issue.
Intangelon
30-07-2008, 19:38
welcome to science :)

No.

Welcome to science dependent upon funding from non-scientists. The problem isn't with science, it's with people.
Damor
30-07-2008, 19:51
No.

Welcome to science dependent upon funding from non-scientists. The problem isn't with science, it's with people.Science is made up of people. You find the same problems when it's funded by universities.
Intangelon
30-07-2008, 20:02
Science is made up of people. You find the same problems when it's funded by universities.

How does that in any way contradict what I said? Non-scientists. That would include university administrators and bean counters.
Veblenia
30-07-2008, 20:16
From what I can tell it's very rare in psychology. As a rule once something is published they will then be invited to make a rebuttal (or may submit one) but generally not in the same issue.

Having dipped my toe into academic circles I came to realize pretty quickly how many fragile egos inhabit them. I don't know if psychology would be worse or better than history, considering (unlike history) it has a function outside the ivory tower. Regardless, if H. is contravening the rules and best practises of his own discipline, to say nothing of the litigation, I'd say he's got to be an extreme case. I wouldn't really let this deter you.
Damor
30-07-2008, 20:41
How does that in any way contradict what I said? Non-scientists. That would include university administrators and bean counters.Around here at universities administrative tasks are done by the same people that do the scientific research and teaching duties.
Point is, it doesn't matter whether research is funded by scientists or non-scientists. The same problems persist, because science is done by people. You can't separate the two and just blame people and leave science as some high perfect ideal. It doesn't exist separately from the people that do it, and those are as ego-driven and ambitious as the rest of the population. Especially the good ones. That's why you had such clashes between the likes of Bohr and Einstein. They took challenges to their theories as a personal affront.
It has little or nothing to do with who pays them.
Abdju
30-07-2008, 21:14
Now personally as a young, and possible naive academic just starting out in my career, I am actually quite horrified at this. It appears to be going against pretty much all the principles of scientific research and no one person in a field should have this much power to stifle academic opposition. Yet this appears to happen. What do other people think of situations such as these and has anyone heard of it happening in other fields, or is this quite an unfortunate one-off?

I think taking the whole thing to court is ridiculous. It merely stifles any development of new ideas in the field. It's also utterly unsurprising. Once someone's professional pride gets involved, much (but NOT all) of academia descends into a darkly amusing cat fight. If only academia could live up to it's lofty ideals, the world would be much better place.

Unfortunately this is not uncommon. It is difficult to challenge orthodox theory until the person who propounded it is dead.

I disagree. There is rarely a shortage of potential challengers to orthodox views whilst their proponent is still alive. Academic history is rich with situations where several "greats" in their field would face off. However, often challengers, unless of very high regard themselves, find it hard for their views to get much following. But then, isn't that the case in all spheres of life, for better or worse. (Linux V Windows, anyone?)


But then, scientific practice is hardly the ideal you're taught at school an university. Scientists are people too, with the same arrogance and tantrums others may succumb to. And an authority in a field will hardly want to be displaced without a good fight.


Sadly true.

All said, trying to stall publication of a journal because it is carrying a paper criticising your work is hardly good practise. Criticism and peer review are a fundamental part of making solid progress in any field. And a good rebuttal piece may be a better bet than dragging the whole issue before the judges.
Intangelon
30-07-2008, 21:19
Around here at universities administrative tasks are done by the same people that do the scientific research and teaching duties.
Point is, it doesn't matter whether research is funded by scientists or non-scientists. The same problems persist, because science is done by people. You can't separate the two and just blame people and leave science as some high perfect ideal. It doesn't exist separately from the people that do it, and those are as ego-driven and ambitious as the rest of the population. Especially the good ones. That's why you had such clashes between the likes of Bohr and Einstein. They took challenges to their theories as a personal affront.
It has little or nothing to do with who pays them.

Thou sayest.
Extreme Ironing
30-07-2008, 21:24
Someone needs to take Mr H. aside and bring him back down with both feet on the ground.

You kind of understand how it could get personal, though. Someone is criticising your life's work; Newton might have been quite pissed off had he been around at the beginning of the 20th century. Then again, you'd hope such intelligent people might have a little more grace and humility.
Mad hatters in jeans
31-07-2008, 00:26
Well i'm glad mr T isn't around otherwise things could get even worse.
(sorry for the that, i had to get it out of my system).
G3N13
31-07-2008, 00:39
Well i'm glad mr T isn't around otherwise things could get even worse.
(sorry for the that, i had to get it out of my system).

If it were Information Technology... Mr T. would make an excellent consultant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1S2tsxVHg) :D
Conserative Morality
31-07-2008, 01:06
If it were Information Technology... Mr T. would make an excellent consultant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1S2tsxVHg) :D

"Tastes like chicken sucka!":D