NationStates Jolt Archive

So perhaps unsuprisingly I belong to a Sikh forum or two, one of which was up in arms today about the seemingly racist and ingorant, responses from the public about a court case we had yesterday, upholding a Sikh girls right to where the Kara to school.

Personly I think if your religoin tells you that you should wear this article then, you should, and a schools uniform policy just has to take that into account.

Linky: http://http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator)

The problem here is with the basic ignorance of some of these people.

What make you go grrrrr?

So perhaps unsuprisingly I belong to a Sikh forum or two, one of which was up in arms today about the seemingly racist and ingorant, responses from the public about a court case we had yesterday, upholding a Sikh girls right to where the Kara to school.

Personly I think if your religoin tells you that you should wear this article then, you should, and a schools uniform policy just has to take that into account.

Linky: http://http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator)

The problem here is with the basic ignorance of some of these people.

What make you go grrrrr?

What's the topic here, religions clothing requirements, or in general, anything that pisses anyone off?

So perhaps unsuprisingly I belong to a Sikh forum or two, one of which was up in arms today about the seemingly racist and ingorant, responses from the public about a court case we had yesterday, upholding a Sikh girls right to where the Kara to school.

Personly I think if your religoin tells you that you should wear this article then, you should, and a schools uniform policy just has to take that into account.

Linky: http://http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator)

The problem here is with the basic ignorance of some of these people.

What make you go grrrrr?

Ignorant people who complain about other people's ignorance makes me laugh sometimes...

Ignorant people who complain about other people's ignorance makes me laugh sometimes...

Are you saying that spelling and grammar errors upset you?

What's the topic here, religions clothing requirements, or in general, anything that pisses anyone off?

Things that make you go Grrrr!

Frosties

Are you saying that spelling and grammar errors upset you?

Bwahhahah!, hardly. No when people say things like:

'Not so long ago we had the incident of the air hostess who has a strong Christian faith, denied the right to wear a cross around her neck whilst in uniform. This is her significant item of faith representing the core of her belief. So somebody please explain why this girl should be allowed to wear her bangle whilst in the uniform of an organisation that also says NO to jewellery being worn. When in Rome do as the Romans do - When in England .... do as you like!!'


I find it shows a level of ignorance that really can be remeided by two mins Wiki'ng, and is bearly disguised bigotry poseing as rigthous indignation.

Ignorant people who complain about other people's ignorance makes me laugh sometimes...
That's not being ignorant, he's dyslexic. So hush ;)

New Labour makes me go grrr.

So perhaps unsuprisingly I belong to a Sikh forum or two, one of which was up in arms today about the seemingly racist and ingorant, responses from the public about a court case we had yesterday, upholding a Sikh girls right to where the Kara to school.

Personly I think if your religoin tells you that you should wear this article then, you should, and a schools uniform policy just has to take that into account.

Linky: http://http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&forumID=5170&start=0&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20080730141052#paginator)

The problem here is with the basic ignorance of some of these people.

What make you go grrrrr?

Well...that kind of thing for starters. Either nobody is allowed wear anything hinting at religon, or everybody can. I favour the latter, despite being an atheist, as I fail to see the harm. In fact it could well do good.


New Labour makes me go grrr.

I often find it increasingly hard to believe that they're in any way related to the Labour whose party conferences gave me the idea that 'Maybe not all the English are bastards that need shooting'. Maybe it was because I was too young to know the difference between the rhetoric and the reality...

...gave me the idea that 'Maybe not all the English are bastards that need shooting'.

Ha ha, another one fooled by propaganda, we all totally need shooting, we're also complete bastards - the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was not convincing people that he didn't exist, but that we might just be wrong and he may be a nice guy after all.

Silly Brits.
Seriously, though, I would think the kirpan might be more of a problem and yet in many places it's been ruled, just as here, that as a symbol of faith it must be allowed.

I wonder if they allow kirpans why a plain steel bracelet caused all this consternation.

people who continue to talk to you about something, even though you told them you aren't interested, or have heard it before

Ignorant people who complain about other people's ignorance makes me laugh sometimes...

Meh not ignorance, disability you ignoramouse!:tongue:

Silly Brits.
Seriously, though, I would think the kirpan might be more of a problem and yet in many places it's been ruled, just as here, that as a symbol of faith it must be allowed.

I wonder if they all kirpans why a plain steel bracelet caused all this consternation.

Many kirpans now are not real knifes but a blunt 'symbol' of a knife. That is to say that many younger Sikhs don't wear real kirpans, now the adults may be a little differant.

Personly I think if your religoin tells you that you should wear this article then, you should, and a schools uniform policy just has to take that into account.
Like a full Burqa.

Anyways, children who cry in airplanes, or other spaces that force me to listen to them, make me go grrrrr.

Silly Brits.
Seriously, though, I would think the kirpan might be more of a problem and yet in many places it's been ruled, just as here, that as a symbol of faith it must be allowed.

I wonder if they all kirpans why a plain steel bracelet caused all this consternation.
People aren't allowed to wear the kirpan in its traditional, stabtabular form, so Sikhs have taken to wearing kirpan-esque badges, hairclips, necklaces or whatever.

Like a full Burqa.

Anyways, children who cry in airplanes, or other spaces that force me to listen to them, make me go grrrrr.

Well if Islamic scripture said 'Woman! Thous must wear full burka!' then yes.

Ohhh I know what you mean. I don't get that grrrrish about kids crying on buses, but the noise is designed to go right through you.

Many kirpans now are not real knifes but a blunt 'symbol' of a knife. That is to say that many younger Sikhs don't wear real kirpans, now the adults may be a little differant.

That may be true, but I still would not be allowed to carry my stage dagger or sword to school because, while blunt, they COULD still be used as a weapon... I am sure that a punch with a kirpan in hand will put a hole in people.

So... again, why all the fuss over a bracelet?
Are Christians banned from wearing a small cross?
Jews a small Star of David?

I think people, most especially government, should STFU over people's manner of dress/religious adornments/jewelry, but that's just me.

I have no particular sympathy here. Whether the school has made a wise decision in banning ALL jewelry is not my call to make: that's their decision and they had a right to it. The Sikhs can either not wear their special doo-dad, or they can go somewhere else. If they were compelled to go to this school, it would be a different case.

Demands for SPECIAL PRIVILEGE on religious grounds are what make me go Grrrr...

People aren't allowed to wear the kirpan in its traditional, stabtabular form, so Sikhs have taken to wearing kirpan-esque badges, hairclips, necklaces or whatever.

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060309daggers

At least one source says that while they CAN, the only restriction in Canada is that it's kept sheathed and under five inches in length.

It's also legal to carry sharp ones in India, the UK, and generally, in the US.

I have no particular sympathy here. Whether the school has made a wise decision in banning ALL jewelry is not my call to make: that's their decision and they had a right to it. The Sikhs can either not wear their special doo-dad, or they can go somewhere else. If they were compelled to go to this school, it would be a different case.

Demands for SPECIAL PRIVILEGE on religious grounds are what make me go Grrrr...
Uhu. Well luckily, we here in Great Britain have a special thing called tolerance. This is a Good Thing, because it helps people to integrate into society and generally kick about not being too pissed off with each other.

Religious grounds are a fine reason to get an exception for things, so long as they don't take the piss too much. "Can I wear a religious bracelet?" "Yeah OK". "Can I have a religious knife?" "No."

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bin/na.cgi?nationalupdates/060309daggers

At least one source says that while they CAN, the only restriction in Canada is that it's kept sheathed and under five inches in length.

It's also legal to carry sharp ones in India, the UK, and generally, in the US.
Am pretty sure that you can't wear a long, sharp Kirpan in the UK :confused:

I have no particular sympathy here. Whether the school has made a wise decision in banning ALL jewelry is not my call to make: that's their decision and they had a right to it. The Sikhs can either not wear their special doo-dad, or they can go somewhere else. If they were compelled to go to this school, it would be a different case.

Demands for SPECIAL PRIVILEGE on religious grounds are what make me go Grrrr...

And that's the sort of ignorance I was talking about. baptised sikhs have to wear the 5k's no if's no but's it is a definite commandment. As to going somewhere else I can only assume you know nowt about how the schooling system works here?

I can understand peoples dislike of special privilages given based on faith, but I can see no differance between that and those based on culture, or gender, or age. If somthing is important or has a high value judgment placed on it, regardless of the reason, then should we not respect that?

Why exactly do you believe that religion should be more important and take precedence over other beliefs and/or plain free will?

"Can I have a religious knife?" "No."

Heh I don't see why not? The reason behind the Sikhs kirpan, is similar to arguments tht I have heard for gun ownership, to defend the defensless against the corrupt etc.. blah blah blah!

And that's the sort of ignorance I was talking about. baptised sikhs have to wear the 5k's no if's no but's it is a definite commandment.
I am not the slightest bit "ignorant" about that. I regard that as an unwise decision by your religion to make people either abandon the religion or insist on wearing these objects all the time, but since you've made that decision, then you have forfeited the right to go anywhere where such objects are forbidden. If you MUST carry knives, then, do not get on airplanes.
As to going somewhere else I can only assume you know nowt about how the schooling system works here?
The piece you quoted stated that this was the school OF THE PARENTS' CHOICE.
I can understand peoples dislike of special privilages given based on faith, but I can see no differance between that and those based on culture, or gender, or age. If somthing is important or has a high value judgment placed on it, regardless of the reason, then should we not respect that?
Sikhism is not important to me, and does not have a high value judgment placed on it by me. No, I do not respect it. Your demand that I give respect to it is what makes me go Grrr....

Am pretty sure that you can't wear a long, sharp Kirpan in the UK :confused:

Our friend wikipedia says:

It is legal under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (section 139) and Offensive Weapons Act 1996 (section 3 and 4) for a Sikh to carry a kirpan with a blade for religious reasons (other reasons allowed by the Act are cultural or work related reasons). The Criminal Justice Act 1988 safeguards the rights of Sikhs to carry the kirpan as it is deemed a necessary part of their religion.

Heh I don't see why not? The reason behind the Sikhs kirpan, is similar to arguments tht I have heard for gun ownership, to defend the defensless against the corrupt etc.. blah blah blah!
Yes, quite, which is why it's basically bullshit in the UK at the moment.

Our friend wikipedia says you're wrong
Oh, ok. That's me told.

Oh, ok. That's me told.

It was news to me too.

Sikhism is not important to me, and does not have a high value judgment placed on it by me. No, I do not respect it. Your demand that I give respect to it is what makes me go Grrr....


I demand nowt of the sort, I asked if people place a high value on something, no matter the reasons, is it not a good idea for us to respect that?

If for example if you just could not live without wearing that baseball cap the wrong way around. Well then it does me no harm to allow you that choice without kicking up a stink about how stupid you look.


In other words, although I may not understand nor agree with your choice, it is a thing that causes no harm, and I can respect that you place high value on it.

Yes, quite, which is why it's basically bullshit in the UK at the moment.

Yes I agree, but with the Sikh history of defending the oppressed, well you never know. It would be kinda nice to see a Sikh hero turn up to prevent one of these many stabbings we have all heard about in the media.

'Bwahahahah!'

'What you laughing at Singh, he has a knife!'

'Don't worry baba ji, that's not a knife, this is a knife'

"Greenies", people who think they know how to resolve an issue (aka politicians) and people who think they know all about a certain organisation and how it works based purely on hearsay despite never actually being apart of said organisation.

The list goes on and on and on and on, but I won't bore you with the details.

Yes I agree, but with the Sikh history of defending the oppressed, well you never know. It would be kinda nice to see a Sikh hero turn up to prevent one of these many stabbings we have all heard about in the media.

'Bwahahahah!'

'What you laughing at Singh, he has a knife!'

'Don't worry baba ji, that's not a knife, this is a knife'

Sounds like a movie plot:

"Sikh And Destroy"

:D

I demand nowt of the sort, I asked if people place a high value on something, no matter the reasons, is it not a good idea for us to respect that?
No.
If for example if you just could not live without wearing that baseball cap the wrong way around.
Then if a restaurant won't let you in dressed like that, either take off the stupid cap, or go somewhere else if it's that freaking important to you.
Well then it does me no harm to allow you that choice without kicking up a stink about how stupid you look.
It's up to YOU to decide that. It is not up to the cap-wearer to inflict his decisions on everyone else.

In other words, although I may not understand nor agree with your choice, it is a thing that causes no harm, and I can respect that you place high value on it.
You can, or you could not.

Sounds like a movie plot:

"Sikh And Destroy"

:D

Bwhahahah.

Then if a restaurant won't let you in dressed like that, either take off the stupid cap, or go somewhere else if it's that freaking important to you.


A resturant is not a school though huh, you can go your whole life without the need to dineout.

Do you belive then that, a school is not obliged to provide school meals for vegiterians, that vegitarians should instead seek out vegiterian schools?

Depends. In the case you cited, the parents CHOSE the school. I said from the beginning that if it were IMPOSED on them, this would be a different matter. Even so, I would be wary of imposing any requirement on public school to provide special meals for vegetarians or any other group with peculiar requirements: if THEY think it is important, THEY should deal with it; if there are a lot of them, it may well make sense for the school to make provisions, but that is up to the school to decide.

Depends. In the case you cited, the parents CHOSE the school. I said from the beginning that if it were IMPOSED on them, this would be a different matter. Even so, I would be wary of imposing any requirement on public school to provide special meals for vegetarians or any other group with peculiar requirements: if THEY think it is important, THEY should deal with it; if there are a lot of them, it may well make sense for the school to make provisions, but that is up to the school to decide.

Meh! CHOICE, what does that mean when chosing a school in Britain today?

I'll tell ya what it means, it means out of the 3 perhaps 4 that you happen to live in the catchment area of, one is going to be the rough shcool with the bad kids, one is going to be the good school that every decent parent wants their kids to go to, so out of perhaps 4 schools, you really have one choice.

Would you CHOOSE to send your kids to the school that agreed with your uniform policy or would you CHOOSE to send your kids to the school that gave your children the bestter education?

Should people be discriminated away from the better schools on religous grounds, is tha what you are really saying?

Would you CHOOSE to send your kids to the school that agreed with your uniform policy or would you CHOOSE to send your kids to the school that gave your children the bestter education?
If I CHOOSE to put a higher priority on the uniform policy, then that's what I CHOSE. If I CHOOSE a school whose uniform policy disagrees with my preferences, then I will put that aspect of my preferences aside.
Should people be discriminated away from the better schools on religous grounds, is tha what you are really saying?
If your freaking religion limits your choices, that's YOUR fault, not mine.

If I CHOOSE to put a higher priority on the uniform policy, then that's what I CHOSE. If I CHOOSE a school whose uniform policy disagrees with my preferences, then I will put that aspect of my preferences aside.

If your freaking religion limits your choices, that's YOUR fault, not mine.

Wow you like the word freakin' huh! So then your view is that your own personal choices in life should not be accomedated, understood , nor respected by anybody else?

You really don't like people then or what?

Well...that kind of thing for starters. Either nobody is allowed wear anything hinting at religon, or everybody can. I favour the latter, despite being an atheist, as I fail to see the harm. In fact it could well do good.

Except where wearing such an item completely interferes with establishing one's identity for official reasons.

For instance, on a government issued identification card, one should be unveiled and unmasked so that we can see your face in the photo. And during any attempt by official government personnel to identify you, you should not only hand over the ID card for inspection, but raise your veil or mask so that your entire face can be clearly seen.

For working in highly secure areas (defense related, for example), you should be required to be unveiled in areas that are under CCTV surveillance.

people who constantly piss and moan about being too hot should be burnt at the stake

as should those people who think they are smarter than the teacher and thus argue back wasting everyones time with pointless terminology and such

Anyways, children who cry in airplanes, or other spaces that force me to listen to them, make me go grrrrr.

welcome to the internet :wink:

if THEY think it is important, THEY should deal with it; if there are a lot of them, it may well make sense for the school to make provisions, but that is up to the school to decide.

actually the state has an obligation to provide education for all its citizens and the school has the obligation to provide equal opportunities to its pupils not excluding based on religious background (thats for the failure that is private schools)

still I'm sure there is a long history of schools catering for needs like say wheelchairs...oh wait no schools bothered

Except where wearing such an item completely interferes with establishing one's identity for official reasons.

only ID cards have worked fine when applied to even the strictest religious laws

Personly I think if your religoin tells you that you should wear this article then, you should, and a schools uniform policy just has to take that into account.Well, as long as it's just a bracelet.
But I wouldn't be in favour of a general rule allowing people to wear/carry whatever their religion tells them to. Knives, for instance, would be going overboard.

Not that I really see the point of why religion should proscribe people wearing certain things anyway. Times change. Of course, the same goes for school's clothing policies.

only ID cards have worked fine when applied to even the strictest religious laws

Here in the US, some veil-wearers are objecting to being photographed with the veil raised, and don't want to have to raise the veil when being identified.

I understand religious objections, but I believe that identity and security concerns completely outweigh any religious objection.

as should those people who think they are smarter than the teacher and thus argue back wasting everyones time with pointless terminology and such


Well, to be fair, sometimes one really is smarter than the teacher. My fourth grade teacher once quite seriously declared to the class (and this is a direct quote): "Scientists say we came from monkeys, but we all know scientists are liars!" I could hardly find fault with anyone who argued with that.

(Now, as for students who argue about things that are demonstrably, provably, obviously true to anyone with a functional brain, they should all be smacked upside the head with a trout. *is still bitter about spending an entire geometry class period in high school listening to an idiot complain that three points did NOT define a plane*) :tongue:

What really pisses me off are people who have an overdeveloped sense of entitlement.

Sure, I can see expecting some sort of grant or support for university tuition - if you're actually bright and can prove it. There should be government support for economic and social mobility and equality, and there should be support for the poor, the less well-off, and the helpless. So there ARE people who are entitled to monetary and societal support.

On the other hand, if you're a meth addict, and you want a handout, I'd sooner have you strung up by the nearest lamp post as an example of what happens when you're fucking stupid.

Kellog's Frosted Flakes?

Wow you like the word freakin' huh! So then your view is that your own personal choices in life should not be accomedated, understood , nor respected by anybody else?

You really don't like people then or what?
What the fuck?

You make your choices, based on your own criteria, and they have consequences. You have a choice of schools, and each school is "better" in some ways and "worse" in some others, it's up to you to decide what's most important. One school offers piano, and your kid MUST learn to play the piano, but that's not the school that's one block away, and your kid MUST be able to walk to school: well then, you're not going to get both your preferences, and you have no right to insist that the piano teacher change to the school you'd rather have him at. One school has the best math teachers, but that school won't let your kid wear his precious baseball cap: and since you've decided that the cap is the #1 priority overriding every other consideration, that school is off your list. (I've actually seen this issue: one of my young cousins thought it exceedingly important to wear his cap all the time while his math teacher, whom I also knew well as an old roommate of my brother's, thought it important to keep making him take it off; but in this case the parents side with the teacher).

In this case, one of the things that makes this particular school what it is is that students are not allowed to distinguish themselves by jewelry. To the parents, jewelry policy is a #1 priority that overrides any other considerations like curriculum: so, that is not the "better" school for them, it is the "worse" school, by the criteria they have chosen. Is it important to the school? That's up to the school administrators. If they say, "No big deal, we'll change for you", I have no problem with it; if they don't, then it is up to the parents to decide if this bangle thing is really more important than everything else: I consider that foolishness, but it is their right to prioritize things however they want. "Respect" it? No, I don't.

My religion teaches that attachment to material objects is a foolishness. I wear a little jade Buddha around my neck on a red cord (under my shirt, not over, since its purpose is not for "testifying" to others like the crosses Christians affect). But if I go to a nude beach, I take it off. Under any other circumstances where someone wanted me not to wear it, I wouldn't: it's just a MATERIAL THING; it doesn't damage my spirituality not to have it on me; it would damage my spirituality for me to get all attached and bent out of shape about it. Your religion, as I know perfectly well (you throwing around words like "ignorant" is one of the things that makes me go GRRRR), requires this extreme attachment to five particular objects-- shrug, OK by me, I'm not out to convert you to anything, but it has consequences, and no, I feel no obligation to relieve you of any consequences.