NationStates Jolt Archive

Xenu told me he doesn't.

Shame Ruffy, your OP is scarcely above spam.

Shame Ruffy, your OP is scarcely above spam.

Is Scientology not relevant here?

Xenu lies. He also cheats at checkers. *nod*

God exists. He's bringing the pizza for our next poker game. Thor is bringing the beer. Should be a good night. :)

I go to Mass. I pray, if not quite on a nightly basis, definitely close to. When I'm hurt, or scared, or unsure, I ask God for guidance... and I am comforted by the idea that He hears me.

Does God exist? I would like to think so, but the truth is, I have no idea. I don't honestly think it matters. If I *believe* He exists, then my belief provides me comfort and happiness when I need it, whether or not it's based on truth. The result is what matters, in my opinion, not the having and/or lack of proof.

im a firm believer that the only reason people pray is because they hope god will listen. I dont think there is a god, but I guess nobody will know untill its all said and done......

"there is no possability that all religions are right, but there is a possablilty all religions are wrong"

I don't think the concept of (worldly) existence is compatible with the Christian concept of God.

I have trouble buying the idea of an omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent "God"

I do believe there is a "spiritual" force or entity (or forces / entities) greater than ourselves. It's origins, purposes, intents, and methods, however, I do not choose to speculate upon.

I will find out one way or another soon enough.

Same old question. Nobody seems to be intelligent enough to realise that they just don't know.

Same old question. Nobody seems to be intelligent enough to realise that they just don't know.

However, I'm intelligent enough to realize that I'm not intelligent enough to realize that I just don't know. :)

Xenu told me he doesn't.

A higher power? Sure, though I'm not a fan of the Christian "God" (with the capital G) character.

Is Scientology not relevant here?
I guess so.

I go to Mass. I pray, if not quite on a nightly basis, definitely close to. When I'm hurt, or scared, or unsure, I ask God for guidance... and I am comforted by the idea that He hears me.

Does God exist? I would like to think so, but the truth is, I have no idea. I don't honestly think it matters. If I *believe* He exists, then my belief provides me comfort and happiness when I need it, whether or not it's based on truth. The result is what matters, in my opinion, not the having and/or lack of proof.

*thread dissipates in a puff of intellectual honesty*

Is Scientology not relevant here?

Let's move the server to Germany or Greece.

de:wiki, Scientology

Folgerichtig wird die Scientology-Kirche in Deutschland seit 1997 vom Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz und von einigen Landesämtern für Verfassungsschutz wegen Verdachts auf „Bestrebungen gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung“ beobachtet.[125]

Zwar ist der Vorwurf der Demokratiefeindlichkeit im deutschsprachigen Raum besonders verbreitet, doch hat auch Griechenland Scientology 1993 zum „Staatsfeind“ erklärt.

bolded parts: (in Germany)... suspects of "deviations against the free, democratic, consistitutional order"; also Greece in 1993 has declared Scientology as enemy of the State.

Do YOU exist?

i don't know about "he", "she", "it" or "them", but there seems to be some sort of awaireness greater then our own that we seem to be capable of some sort of contiguous connectiedness with.

as far as priesthoods and people getting togather to make a big deal about it, that's another matter entirely. and i don't think anyone can honestly claim to KNOW any more about it then that, but SOME thing seems to be there.

i'm not convinced anything NEEDS to be infallable, and i'm pretty sure the existence of whatever it is DOESN'T make anything any less up to us then it would be if it didn't, but SOMEthing big, friendly and invissible seems to give great hugs, and a lot of little friendly and invisible somethings do too.

the names may be something we came up with ourselves, but the founders of all the major religeons may have been chosen by it to be channeled by.

most of what people take to be mysterious forces beyond our comprihension, ARE simply our individually reaping what we collectievly sew, but still, there is that sense, that feeling, of something being, meaning well, and being greater then ourselves.

whatever there doesn't have to be, there absolutely doesn't have to not be either.

(yes, i'm the "very possible", the first and hopefully not the last)

=^^=
.../\...

Do YOU exist?

Usually.

im a firm believer that the only reason people pray is because they hope god will listen. I dont think there is a god, but I guess nobody will know untill its all said and done.

That or there is no afterlife, and no one will ever know.

But I believe there is a God (and an afterlife, not that the two need necessarily both exist together, I just happen to believe they do exist together)

i think Xenu is a pretty cool guy. eh shows us cool movies and doesnt afraid of anything

No idea. Joe Pesci does exist, though.

Do YOU exist?
No.

Now if you'll excuse me I am off to metaphysics class.

I told god to get off my Lawn, but he wouldn't listen.

I told god to get off my Lawn, but he wouldn't listen.

So you are umm saying yes?

So you are umm saying yes?

I'm saying moo.

Xenu told me he doesn't.

Simple answer. Yes. And I am referring the christian God. The rest of them are a bunch of distractions.
I have lived an extraordinary life. I have seen too much and experienced too much to entertain the idea that God doesn't exist. Its just a fact He exists.

Let's move the server to Germany or Greece.
Yay for Germany and Greece?

Do YOU exist?
If you believe in zombies, I exist. If you don't, I guess I have to eat your brains to prove I do exist. ;)

I'm saying moo.
There is a cow in here!

No he dont exist.
God is just a lie, otherwise he woud do something about illness and about starving to death right.

'Religion is held by poor as true, the wise are incorrect, and the rich as useful.'

I am an ignostic cognitive non-theist. Until a coherent and falsifiable definition of God is presented, the question of the existence of God is meaningless and cannot be answered. Same goes for souls, spirits, ghosts, et al.

"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." is cognitively equal to "God exists."

Xenu told me he doesn't.

Xenu has been spanked and sent to bed without supper; I told him he must not toy with sentient races.

No he dont exist.
God is just a lie, otherwise he woud do something about illness and about starving to death right.

You assume God is a nice guy. It's entirely possible that god exists and is just a bastard.

There is a cow in here!

Or maybe an Ox (http://www.jaysquare.com/ljohnson/ox-herding.html)...

I think God exists but is "Ascended", meaning that he exists as energy but i don't think he can really do much besides manipulate electrical fields in order to manipulate living things, and metals. This is also how he talks to us. He can manipulate the electrical patterns in our minds to make us see and hear things, and he can potentially control us. I do not believe he is omnipresent, however, he can travel at the speed of light, being energy. I believe that most of the time he is benevolent, but anybody would get fed up with watching our "progress" and sometimes he just wants to mess with us, or more often, bring us together with disasters.

Therefore, I believe in spirituality, but I think that religions are just fantasies gone out of control. Also, somebody who is Christian, how is god loving and benevolent and all powerful if he damns people to an eternity of torture??And Scientology isn't bad either, same thing with Paganism, Judaism, or Islam. They've all been steriotyped (how do u spell that?).

Jews have been hated becaust they were slaves to Egypt and from there contempt spread, and then Nazis hated them so much they exterminated millions of them (don't deny it, i know some people don't believe in the Holocaust, but there is proof).

Paganism has been attacked since the early days of the Roman Empire and is still looked down on by most other religions, but not violently even though it it the first and the oldest religion.

Islam is considered terrorist (at least in America where I live) and Islamacs (Im sorry, but i don't know how to spell that) were actually randomly beaten after 9/11. The entire religion has been made to look like terrorists even though only something like 1.3% are fanatics/terrorists. and many people are pressed into service by that 1.3%.

Scientology is just a fancy word for scientific atheism from people who still want to say they go to church eventhough they will never find god because he is undetectable.

Sorry about being long-winded, but u don't have to read the whole thing if you don't want to.And seriously, i want someone Christian to answer my question. Also, Im a Unitarian Universalist, so Im MOSTLY unbiased against other religions and cultures, but I don't want any replies that are just against any religions or gods that is totally unfounded, and i havent read the Bible, Torah, or any other religious book, and i don't like having their contents hurled at me because few religions accept other religions.
Again, sorry about being long-winded.

Scientology is as far removed from atheism as humanly possible.

yah, well, shows how much I know, I don't know anything about scientology really, and i would like to know what so many people are getting angry at.

Xenu has been spanked and sent to bed without supper; I told him he must not toy with sentient races.

Hmmm... Kat the Mod can Banish a god?

::: puts two and two together...:::

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Katganistan Mod Cave wgah'nagl fhtagn"

The horror, the HORROR!!!!!

Who will be DEATed first? (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/minussmile/CthulhuChickTract.gif)

Xenu told me he doesn't.
what the fuck does xenu know? hes a nouveau-powerful alien overlord god wannabe.


and

no.

If I claim that unicorns exists, it's up to me to prove it. It's the same thing for those who say that god exists.

I go to Mass. I pray, if not quite on a nightly basis, definitely close to. When I'm hurt, or scared, or unsure, I ask God for guidance... and I am comforted by the idea that He hears me.

Does God exist? I would like to think so, but the truth is, I have no idea. I don't honestly think it matters. If I *believe* He exists, then my belief provides me comfort and happiness when I need it, whether or not it's based on truth. The result is what matters, in my opinion, not the having and/or lack of proof.

Wait wait wait . .. someone truely reasonable and open minded???? HUH??? *jaw drops*
:eek:
*scuttles into bomb shellter to await the end of the world*

I find myself believing in God as a Protestant Christian due to the obvious proof for a Divine, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent Being.

As C.S. Lewis pointed out in "Meer Christianity", people seem to have some knowledge of a right and wrong, or a moral code if you wish to put it that way. You may say that they were taught that way, but everyone since the dawn of humanity has. Where did they learn about it? Their Creator. Which leads us to the next...

If there wasn't a God, no Greater Good would exist. You find that everything has a reason for happening, like (but not relating to) the Law of Cause and Effect. The American Civil War- many, many, many people died, but it united the country to be able to destroy eviler people such as Hitler (later on). 9/11 occured so the US could dethrone Saddam.

God explains what science could never possibly explain: the miracles of the supernatural. My now-deceased grandfather, when he was a little boy, once climbed on an ice truck (that's what little boys did back then). He slipped and fell off the truck, and cried out in agony. His family quickly brought him to the hospital, only to find out from the doctors that he had gangrene in the leg he fell on. They explained that his leg would need to be removed or else the boy would die. My grandfather's father declared that he would rather have a dead son than a crippled son. The boy's mother, a Christian, was completely distressed. So she turned to the only One she knew that could save him, God. She gathered up her friends at Church, where they prayed together for 2-3 hours straight. The next day, they received a call from the doctor to come immediately. The boy's family arrived, only to see the shocked face of a doctor. He said that when he checked on my grandfather this morning, the gangrene was gone! There was no medical or scientific way to explain it, but it happened.

That's why I believe in God. Evil only exists as a ways of creating good. Same for Satan's existence.

I find myself believing in God as a Protestant Christian due to the obvious proof for a Divine, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent Being.

As C.S. Lewis pointed out in "Meer Christianity", people seem to have some knowledge of a right and wrong, or a moral code if you wish to put it that way. You may say that they were taught that way, but everyone since the dawn of humanity has. Where did they learn about it? Their Creator. Which leads us to the next...

If there wasn't a God, no Greater Good would exist. You find that everything has a reason for happening, like (but not relating to) the Law of Cause and Effect. The American Civil War- many, many, many people died, but it united the country to be able to destroy eviler people such as Hitler (later on). 9/11 occured so the US could dethrone Saddam.

God explains what science could never possibly explain: the miracles of the supernatural. My now-deceased grandfather, when he was a little boy, once climbed on an ice truck (that's what little boys did back then). He slipped and fell off the truck, and cried out in agony. His family quickly brought him to the hospital, only to find out from the doctors that he had gangrene in the leg he fell on. They explained that his leg would need to be removed or else the boy would die. My grandfather's father declared that he would rather have a dead son than a crippled son. The boy's mother, a Christian, was completely distressed. So she turned to the only One she knew that could save him, God. She gathered up her friends at Church, where they prayed together for 2-3 hours straight. The next day, they received a call from the doctor to come immediately. The boy's family arrived, only to see the shocked face of a doctor. He said that when he checked on my grandfather this morning, the gangrene was gone! There was no medical or scientific way to explain it, but it happened.

That's why I believe in God. Evil only exists as a ways of creating good. Same for Satan's existence.

Your knowledge of even recent events is frighteningly lacking.

While I have no evidence either way, I am content with people believing what they wish.

I find myself believing in God as a Protestant Christian due to the obvious proof for a Divine, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent Being.
It seems to me that you have fairly low standards for what can be classed as 'obvious proof'. Also, that's a whole lot of 'Omnis'... could you not just settle on omnipotent and leave it at that?

As C.S. Lewis pointed out in "Meer Christianity", people seem to have some knowledge of a right and wrong, or a moral code if you wish to put it that way. You may say that they were taught that way, but everyone since the dawn of humanity has. Where did they learn about it? Their Creator
There does appear to be an general altruism amongst humanity or, if you prefer, a 'moral code'. Strangely, parallel modes of behaviour (wherein members of a community are, in the main, more likely to aid their fellow creatures than not) have been observed across a wide range of other species. Are you suggesting that chimpanzees, baboons, dolphins et al. 'learned' this via their own special revealed truth? Does it not seem a great deal more likely that such behaviours are a valid survival strategy and that, over geological time, individuals with a propensity for cooperation are the ones who are, on average, more likely to survive long enough to propagate their genes to the next generation?

Which leads us to the next...

If there wasn't a God, no Greater Good would exist. You find that everything has a reason for happening, like (but not relating to) the Law of Cause and Effect. The American Civil War- many, many, many people died, but it united the country to be able to destroy eviler people such as Hitler (later on). 9/11 occured so the US could dethrone Saddam.
Thank you. If I ever need an example of the dangers of uncritical thinking or of the ways that (some) religious people try to explain everything that happens as part of "God's ineffable plan" I can quote this.

If you want to use this "everything has a reason for happening" line of 'reasoning' as any kind of serious argument you'll need to explain away a whole lot of other occurrences (i.e. everything 'bad' that's ever happened). You can start with the Boxing Day tsunami and go from there.

God explains what science could never possibly explain: the miracles of the supernatural.
For many of us, simply invoking 'God' explains nothing whatsoever and appeals to 'God' as an explanation are viewed as an evasion, not an explanation. I will not dissect your anecdote about your grandfather, since doing so would inevitably end up being viewed as a personal attack. I will, however, simply say that no controlled experiment has ever shown the existence of any benefit deriving from intercessory prayer and leave it at that.



----

For the thread, and the OP question "does God exist?"...

If we're talking about God with a capital 'G', as in the Judeo-Christian deity, I'd have to say that I don't think so. If we're talking about gods in general then, again, I'd have to say that I don't think so.

I find myself believing in God as a Protestant Christian due to the obvious proof for a Divine, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent Being.

If there is such obvious evidence, why isn't it obvious to all?

As C.S. Lewis pointed out in "Meer Christianity", people seem to have some knowledge of a right and wrong, or a moral code if you wish to put it that way. You may say that they were taught that way, but everyone since the dawn of humanity has. Where did they learn about it? Their Creator.

Presumes facts not in evidence. One must first define said creator, in falsifiable terms, and then present evidence that may be tested and falsified.

Which leads us to the next...

If there wasn't a God, no Greater Good would exist.

Again, this presumes facts not in evidence. Additionally, it presumes a cause and effect relationship that has not been demonstrated.

You find that everything has a reason for happening, like (but not relating to) the Law of Cause and Effect.

Indeed, causation is important.

The American Civil War- many, many, many people died, but it united the country to be able to destroy eviler people such as Hitler (later on). 9/11 occured so the US could dethrone Saddam.

No causual relationship demonstrated.

God explains what science could never possibly explain: the miracles of the supernatural.

Incorrect. "God" simply serves as an excuse, in as far as you have shown. "I don't understand it, so it must be God." is not an adequate answer.

My now-deceased grandfather, when he was a little boy, once climbed on an ice truck (that's what little boys did back then). He slipped and fell off the truck, and cried out in agony. His family quickly brought him to the hospital, only to find out from the doctors that he had gangrene in the leg he fell on. They explained that his leg would need to be removed or else the boy would die. My grandfather's father declared that he would rather have a dead son than a crippled son. The boy's mother, a Christian, was completely distressed. So she turned to the only One she knew that could save him, God. She gathered up her friends at Church, where they prayed together for 2-3 hours straight. The next day, they received a call from the doctor to come immediately. The boy's family arrived, only to see the shocked face of a doctor. He said that when he checked on my grandfather this morning, the gangrene was gone! There was no medical or scientific way to explain it, but it happened.

Utterly untrustworthy anecdotal evidence.

That's why I believe in God. Evil only exists as a ways of creating good. Same for Satan's existence.

I invoked "Katganistan fhtagn". Xenu was spanked and sent to bed without supper. Do you now believe Katganistan is an Elder God? My evidence is as good as yours...

yah, well, shows how much I know, I don't know anything about scientology really, and i would like to know what so many people are getting angry at.

Heh next time you go shopping and you see one of them, test you menatlity things in your local scientology shop, go and do it, and then you'll know.

Does God exist? Why, I belive so.

Yes. God exists.

Yes. God exists.

and you are Gods gift?

There's no such thing like God.

And I don't care at all about it...I mean, if this beardy do what it said and comply to the law it's assumed to have created, it should have killed itself, no ?

By the way, the Torah, Bible, and Quran are not bad fiction books, they are just overrated.

If I claim that unicorns exists, it's up to me to prove it. It's the same thing for those who say that god exists.

Yeah, that's kind of a good point.

Simple answer. Yes. And I am referring the christian God. The rest of them are a bunch of distractions.
I have lived an extraordinary life. I have seen too much and experienced too much to entertain the idea that God doesn't exist. Its just a fact He exists.

AMEN to that! :hail:

If I claim that unicorns exists, it's up to me to prove it. It's the same thing for those who say that god exists.

Prove it.

Yeah, that's kind of a good point.

Or one could just say, 'what you don't belive me? Meh your call *shrug*'

That there is an argument between science and religion is compleatly pointless. They both answer different questions in life. Sciences answers how something happens and relgion answers why.

'Simple answer. Yes. And I am referring the christian God. The rest of them are a bunch of distractions.'

This kinda makes me giggle. Does this mean that there are more than one God?

That there is an argument between science and religion is compleatly pointless. They both answer different questions in life. Sciences answers how something happens and relgion answers why.

lol uh huh? same old science and religion should be separate fall back . . . .but somehow that doesn't apply in schools . . .or universities (read creationism) . . .or government.

Xenu lies. He also cheats at checkers. *nod*

God exists. He's bringing the pizza for our next poker game. Thor is bringing the beer. Should be a good night. :)

Make sure you never leave your mug unattended while God's in the room. He'll put some nasty stuff in it and you'll wake up the next day carrying the son of god. Just ask Mary.

Hmmm... Kat the Mod can Banish a god?

::: puts two and two together...:::

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Katganistan Mod Cave wgah'nagl fhtagn"

The horror, the HORROR!!!!!

Who will be DEATed first? (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g133/minussmile/CthulhuChickTract.gif)

I guess the big question is:

Is she a Godly Mod, or a Modly God?

Why is it that someone must post a thread asking about the existence of God/Jesus/Bush every few months? When will the madness end?

Seriously, the entire point of any God is "faith" Belief WITHOUT proof. You can't hold a debate about the existence of God because theirs no way to prove either side right. You can't prove a supernatural being doesn't exist because you only have natural laws on your side as evidence, and you can't prove he does exist for the same reason.

Why is it that someone must post a thread asking about the existence of God/Jesus/Bush every few months? When will the madness end?

Seriously, the entire point of any God is "faith" Belief WITHOUT proof. You can't hold a debate about the existence of God because theirs no way to prove either side right. You can't prove a supernatural being doesn't exist because you only have natural laws on your side as evidence, and you can't prove he does exist for the same reason.

Amen to that.

I sure hope so, I also hope that God's a nice.... Deity? Otherwise, purgatory's gonna suck.

Make sure you never leave your mug unattended while God's in the room. He'll put some nasty stuff in it and you'll wake up the next day carrying the son of god. Just ask Mary.

... :eek:

I find myself believing in God as a Protestant Christian due to the obvious proof for a Divine, Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent Being.
thats not actually possible. A god who is omniscient cannot also be omnipotent as that god must already know everything that has is and will happen and therefore cannot change what she or anyone else will do. (I'm using she as an genderless pronoun)

As C.S. Lewis pointed out in "Meer Christianity", people seem to have some knowledge of a right and wrong, or a moral code if you wish to put it that way. You may say that they were taught that way, but everyone since the dawn of humanity has. Where did they learn about it? Their Creator. Which leads us to the next...

1)Read the theory of evolution
2)Read scientific papers following that discovery
3)Stop posting stuff like this
in short form, A moral code is basically just a survival mechanism. Two people working to help each other will take any three who are divided (all other things being equal) therefore they will surivive and expanded so that eventually an entire population is made of people who (mostly) have this "moral code" you allude too. Secondly morals are created by societies, every societ has a different one and even those countries with less influance from "god" have a general social "moral code"


If there wasn't a God, no Greater Good would exist.

because you say so? And define greater good


You find that everything has a reason for happening, like (but not relating to) the Law of Cause and Effect. The American Civil War- many, many, many people died, but it united the country to be able to destroy eviler people such as Hitler (later on). 9/11 occured so the US could dethrone Saddam.

lol so somehow the American civil war allowed great Britain and Russia to defeat Germany? not good at history either are you? Anyway without the civil war and or without the initial American separation from GB that war would probably been easier and or never happened at all on the other hand who really knows? would Japan have still attacked the US of A? And by the way (/11 has lead to nothing but bad for the States. Sadam was not involved in 9/11 the initial reason for the Amercians to be there was false, They have been there for far longer than they meant to., Iraqi living conditions and civilian causalities have gotten worse and the American economy is going down the shitter along side its multi trillion dollar debt.



God explains what science could never possibly explain: the miracles of the supernatural. My now-deceased grandfather, when he was a little boy, once climbed on an ice truck (that's what little boys did back then). He slipped and fell off the truck, and cried out in agony. His family quickly brought him to the hospital, only to find out from the doctors that he had gangrene in the leg he fell on. They explained that his leg would need to be removed or else the boy would die. My grandfather's father declared that he would rather have a dead son than a crippled son. The boy's mother, a Christian, was completely distressed. So she turned to the only One she knew that could save him, God. She gathered up her friends at Church, where they prayed together for 2-3 hours straight. The next day, they received a call from the doctor to come immediately. The boy's family arrived, only to see the shocked face of a doctor. He said that when he checked on my grandfather this morning, the gangrene was gone! There was no medical or scientific way to explain it, but it happened.

your not a biologist are you? nor a doctor I suspect. First off gangrene is a progressive disease that takes ALOT of time to emerge. Second gangrene requires an open wound or stagnant blood within the body to form. and if its the second it takes quite some time to emerge and reproduce to the point where a doctor could see it. (especially 50 years ago or more) So unless it took your family over two weeks to "rush" your grandfather to the hospital this story is just so much bullshit.


That's why I believe in God. Evil only exists as a ways of creating good. Same for Satan's existence.
heheheheh so your belief is founded purely on your belief. . . . .I see . . . .you believe so you believe so your right. Wow. . .I can honestly say this is the worst argument in favour of the existence of god I have ever seen . . .EVER!

... :eek:

... hehe

heheheheh so your belief is founded purely on your belief. . . . .I see . . . .you believe so you believe so your right. Wow. . .I can honestly say this is the worst argument in favour of the existence of god I have ever seen . . .EVER!

Ohhhh I don't know, there are no logical arguments for the existance of God so it ultimatly comes down to belife.

I belive coz I belive can be the only valid argument huh.

Ohhhh I don't know, there are no logical arguments for the existance of God so it ultimatly comes down to belife.

I belive coz I belive can be the only valid argument huh.

thats fine. That I have no problem with. Just dont try to "prove " it using lies and bull. Just come right out and say it like Amarenthe did and i'll respect that.

I know my Savior lives. Lately I have been studying my bible through hebraic lenses as well as historic lenses and I realized that only God could have created such a book. You must STUDY the Bible don't just read it. You can not understand God or his bible unless you study his word.

I know my Savior lives. Lately I have been studying my bible through hebraic lenses as well as historic lenses and I realized that only God could have created such a book. You must STUDY the Bible don't just read it. You can not understand God or his bible unless you study his word.

Studied it, read it, took a few courses on it, interesting book, some good morals but a lot of contradictions and definitely not proof that god exists.

I guess the big question is:

Is she a Godly Mod, or a Modly God?

She spanked Xenu - she's the Moderator of the Gods...

Xenu lies. He also cheats at checkers. *nod*

God exists. He's bringing the pizza for our next poker game. Thor is bringing the beer. Should be a good night. :)
I always thought of Thor as more of a Mead kinda guy...

The theory of evolution does not in any way prove that god does not exist.

Do YOU exist?

I think I do, but then again I'm not really an impartial observer. What do you think?

No you see if you studied those apparent contradictions you would notice they are not contradictions at all

No evidence that any sort of deity exists, so I hold him/her/it on the same level as I do the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus or Gandalf the Grey.

No you see if you studied those apparent contradictions you would notice they are not contradictions at all

So Jesus really was born twice, ten years apart?


Also, the Bible says that Pi=3.

Why is it that someone must post a thread asking about the existence of God/Jesus/Bush every few months? When will the madness end?

Seriously, the entire point of any God is "faith" Belief WITHOUT proof. You can't hold a debate about the existence of God because theirs no way to prove either side right. You can't prove a supernatural being doesn't exist because you only have natural laws on your side as evidence, and you can't prove he does exist for the same reason.

you people obviously ignore this so you can continue your pointless debates.

But the bible is not the only reason I believe in God. He is still doing mighty things today. The American church is ladened with unbelief so we see nothing, but if you go to 3rd world countries in Africa and the Middle East and Asia, places where they have nothing but God you will see his power. And I'm not talking about "the power" that these televangelists like Benny Hinn performs these things are false and not of God. I went to Ghana in 2005 and we were in a Christian home and there was a girl who was screaming in the house for no reason, she was demon possessed the Christians in the room grabbed hold of her and prayed over and called on the name of Jesus and what ever was in her left. I saw demon possessed just like the bible spoke of who were naked living in gutters and cutting themselves.

But the bible is not the only reason I believe in God. He is still doing mighty things today. The American church is ladened with unbelief so we see nothing, but if you go to 3rd world countries in Africa and the Middle East and Asia, places where they have nothing but God you will see his power. And I'm not talking about "the power" that these televangelists like Benny Hinn performs these things are false and not of God. I went to Ghana in 2005 and we were in a Christian home and there was a girl who was screaming in the house for no reason, she was demon possessed the Christians in the room grabbed hold of her and prayed over and called on the name of Jesus and what ever was in her left. I saw demon possessed just like the bible spoke of who were naked living in gutters and cutting themselves.

It's true:

People who are out of their minds with fear and/or pain will often believe in things that you'd have to be out of your mind to believe in.

If god existed, Barbara Bush would have had a miscarriage.

What are you talking about what verse of the bible says that? This is no way disrespectful I just want to know.

It's true:

People who are out of their minds with fear and/or pain will often believe in things that you'd have to be out of your mind to believe in.

But I saw these things you can not deny what you saw

That there is an argument between science and religion is compleatly pointless. They both answer different questions in life. Sciences answers how something happens and relgion answers why.

Two problems:

Firstly, this only works when religion refrains from making any fact claims at all, even such relatively basic ones as 'Jesus was crucified' or even 'Jesus existed'.

Secondly, what gives religion any epistemic authority in the domain of meaning? What makes religious claims to knowledge of 'why' something happens any more authoritative than wild guesses?

But I saw these things you can not deny what you saw
I don't deny that my schizophrenic cousin hears voices, either.

The theory of evolution does not in any way prove that god does not exist.

of course it doesn't would you please read what I was replying too. He was claiming the existence of a creator was evident because otherwise Humans could not be the way they are (specifically morals) I replied with evolution.

No you see if you studied those apparent contradictions you would notice they are not contradictions at all

Thank you corsairs . . .oh and read the old testament alot of that stuff is directly mutually contradictory (even more basic thou shalt not kill vs. the tenant that states that killing isrealities is just fine (and thats old testament btw. but it'll take me some digging to find it)

But I saw these things you can not deny what you saw

We cannot deny that you think you saw those things, but...

Also after 28 years I'm still waiting for an explanation on how a false deity who slaughtered over two million people can be considered good.

Two problems:

Firstly, this only works when religion refrains from making any fact claims at all, even such relatively basic ones as 'Jesus was crucified' or even 'Jesus existed'.

Secondly, what gives religion any epistemic authority in the domain of meaning? What makes religious claims to knowledge of 'why' something happens any more authoritative than wild guesses?

agreed :D

Also there was a drought in Ghana and the country needs water to power their country. So hundreds of pastors all over Ghana came and to the Akosomba Dam which powers the country and fasted and prayed for seven days at the end of the seven days the whole country was flooded. Not only that Tacitus, the Roman historian wrote of the things that happened prior to Jesus' death like the sky blackened over Judea for many days. Josephus a Jewish historian not only wrote down the events of the Bible as fact but he confirmed that Jesus was a wise man who did great miracles and was said to have risen from the dead. Now though the account of Josephus has been slightly glossed over by people who call themselves Christians the original account as written down by St.Jerome which goes back closer to Josephus' time then the glossed version says pretty much the same basic things that he was a wise man who did great works and was said to have risen from the dead.

Also there was a drought in Ghana and the country needs water to power their country. So hundreds of pastors all over Ghana came and to the Akosomba Dam which powers the country and fasted and prayed for seven days at the end of the seven days the whole country was flooded. Not only that Tacitus, the Roman historian wrote of the things that happened prior to Jesus' death like the sky blackened over Judea for many days. Josephus a Jewish historian not only wrote down the events of the Bible as fact but he confirmed that Jesus was a wise man who did great miracles and was said to have risen from the dead. Now though the account of Josephus has been slightly glossed over by people who call themselves Christians the original account as written down by St.Jerome which goes back closer to Josephus' time then the glossed version says pretty much the same basic things that he was a wise man who did great works and was said to have risen from the dead.

Give proof. Keep in mind that "the bible says so" is antiproof.

Also, less textwalls would be nice.

Give proof. Keep in mind that "the bible says so" is antiproof.

Also, less textwalls would be nice.

Go to ghanaweb.com and search for the article it was a while back so you might not find it I don't know but search for it.

Give proof. Keep in mind that "the bible says so" is antiproof.

Also, less textwalls would be nice.

Oh and about Josephus and Tacitus you could look that up anywhere on the internet and in the library.

Not only that Tacitus, the Roman historian wrote of the things that happened prior to Jesus' death like the sky blackened over Judea for many days.

tacitus wasnt there. no one who was in jerusalem at the time recorded a strange darkness. thats the kind of thing that gets written down eh?



Josephus a Jewish historian not only wrote down the events of the Bible as fact but he confirmed that Jesus was a wise man who did great miracles and was said to have risen from the dead. Now though the account of Josephus has been slightly glossed over by people who call themselves Christians the original account as written down by St.Jerome which goes back closer to Josephus' time then the glossed version says pretty much the same basic things that he was a wise man who did great works and was said to have risen from the dead.


you might want to take a look at josephus yourself, jot down exactly what he says about jesus, and see if what he wrote can really pass as proof of anything.

"said to have risen from the dead" can be attributed to a few people/gods/demigods eh?

Also there was a drought in Ghana and the country needs water to power their country. So hundreds of pastors all over Ghana came and to the Akosomba Dam which powers the country and fasted and prayed for seven days at the end of the seven days the whole country was flooded. Not only that Tacitus, the Roman historian wrote of the things that happened prior to Jesus' death like the sky blackened over Judea for many days. Josephus a Jewish historian not only wrote down the events of the Bible as fact but he confirmed that Jesus was a wise man who did great miracles and was said to have risen from the dead. Now though the account of Josephus has been slightly glossed over by people who call themselves Christians the original account as written down by St.Jerome which goes back closer to Josephus' time then the glossed version says pretty much the same basic things that he was a wise man who did great works and was said to have risen from the dead.

not tacticus again . . .this debate=happens so often.. . . .and josephus . . .. but please quote your source on those other two and you have to realize tacticus would never have seen those things he writes about eh?

Does God exist? Well, I don't think that's a question about some fact in the world. Facts are discoverable; by definition there is no scientific 'discovering' of God. I'd say that, if it's supposed to be a question, then it is simply nonsense.

So Jesus really was born twice, ten years apart?


Also, the Bible says that Pi=3.

What verse in the bible says that? I am not trying to be disrespectful but I just want to know.

Germany broke into small states, then was reformed.
Poland was parrtitioned by Prussia, Austria, and Russia, then reformed.
Austria was eaten by WWII germany, then reformed.
Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were eaten by soviet russia, then reformed.

Therefore germany = austria = poland = estonia = latvia = lithuania = jesus. *hides*

Not only that Tacitus, the Roman historian wrote of the things that happened prior to Jesus' death like the sky blackened over Judea for many days.

Tacitus also tells us that Vespasian was able to heal the blind and lame with his saliva. His account is supported (apparently independently) by Suetonius, and Tacitus wrote that "Persons actually present attest both facts, even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood."

Do you believe this happened?

not tacticus again . . .this debate=happens so often.. . . .and josephus . . .. but please quote your source on those other two and you have to realize tacticus would never have seen those things he writes about eh?

That is not a fair statement after all the events of Alexander the Great was not first written down until 400 years after his death but is still seen as credible. At least the gospels were written 30 to 80 years after Jesus' death.

Oh and about Josephus and Tacitus you could look that up anywhere on the internet and in the library.

well you obviously didn't bother too. and its on You to find that ghanna article as your the one who quoted it. If you can't find it then what your claiming is infact not true.

Of course he does! Everyone knows that god is a cat that hides in ceiling tiles and watches people masturbate. :D

What verse in the bible says that? I am not trying to be disrespectful but I just want to know.

1 Kings:

7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

2 chronicles

4:2 Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

cirfumference = pi * diameter.
30 = pi * 10
therefore pi = 3 (according to the bible).

Do YOU exist?

Thats A retared answer :mad::soap::upyours:

thoughts are impossible without the thinker, existance is impossible without an "exister" God exists, he does not care if you look at him or away from him, he wants you to look for him.

Xenu lies. He also cheats at checkers. *nod*

God exists. He's bringing the pizza for our next poker game. Thor is bringing the beer. Should be a good night. :)

Bad things happen when one gets hammered with Thor.

That is not a fair statement after all the events of Alexander the Great was not first written down until 400 years after his death but is still seen as credible. At least the gospels were written 30 to 80 years after Jesus' death.

its a TRUE statement and thats the only point also the only reason those statements about Alexandre are taken as facts is that they are (get this) BACKED UP BY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

o and many of the "gospels" are not included in any version of the bible some were cut by the tribunal at antioch

What verse in the bible says that? I am not trying to be disrespectful but I just want to know.

The Pi verse is in Kings I or II somewhere (I personally don't consider it to be a contradiction though, just a lack of precision).

The Matthew/Luke date discrepancy is a major and irreconcilable contradiction however. The key verses are as follows:

Matt 2:1 (tells us that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod)
Matt 2:22 (confirms that this refers to Herod the Great, not his son Herod Archelaus)

Luke 2:1-2 (tells us that Jesus was born during the governership of Quirinius)

Herod the Great died in 4BC, Quirinius became governer in 6AD. So Matthew and Luke contradict by ten years.

But I Do beleave In god.

What verse in the bible says that? I am not trying to be disrespectful but I just want to know.

For Jesus's birth, you only need to look at the background given in Matthew and Luke, and match that historical background with known historical events, to find that Luke has Jesus born 10 years after Matthew does.

As for Pi:
1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2 both describe a circle that is 10 cubits across and 30 cubits around.

That is not a fair statement after all the events of Alexander the Great was not first written down until 400 years after his death but is still seen as credible. At least the gospels were written 30 to 80 years after Jesus' death.
AtheG is backed up by more than just the writings of someone 400 years after his death. if those writings (whatever you are talking about) were the ONLY proof of AtheG, his existence would be dubious.

consider that whole trojan war thing that was accepted as complete fabrication until <dont remember his name> found an archaeological site for troy. even then, it was obvious that the whole thing was smaller than implied by the iliad AND No one takes it as proof that the greek gods existed at that time.

Thank you corsairs . . .oh and read the old testament alot of that stuff is directly mutually contradictory (even more basic thou shalt not kill vs. the tenant that states that killing isrealities is just fine (and thats old testament btw. but it'll take me some digging to find it)

There is no place in the Bible that says killing Israelites is just fine that makes no sense God favored the Jewish people. Give me more contradictions that you think are in the Bible and I will clear them up for you God bless you. Maybe you should try to read your self and see what you are saying is correct. Paul said not to take his word or any others word but look it up yourself.

That is not a fair statement after all the events of Alexander the Great was not first written down until 400 years after his death but is still seen as credible. At least the gospels were written 30 to 80 years after Jesus' death.

Actually written accounts of Alexander's life were made by five of his contemporaries, at least one of them writing during his lifetime. We don't have the original accounts, but we do have later works based on them.

I highly doubt that it took 400 years, seeing as they had to update their world maps (which showed earth as a circle with greece at the center) due to Alexander going east past the edge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_world_maps#Hecataeus_of_Miletus

AtheG is backed up by more than just the writings of someone 400 years after his death. if those writings (whatever you are talking about) were the ONLY proof of AtheG, his existence would be dubious.

consider that whole trojan war thing that was accepted as complete fabrication until <dont remember his name> found an archaeological site for troy. even then, it was obvious that the whole thing was smaller than implied by the iliad AND No one takes it as proof that the greek gods existed at that time.

No my friend Alexander's first biography was written by Plato 400 years after his death so basically his account was based mostly on oral tradition and today we are using that tradition as fact so technically we don not know if everything that is said to today about Alexander can be taken seriously.

Two problems:

Firstly, this only works when religion refrains from making any fact claims at all, even such relatively basic ones as 'Jesus was crucified' or even 'Jesus existed'.

Secondly, what gives religion any epistemic authority in the domain of meaning? What makes religious claims to knowledge of 'why' something happens any more authoritative than wild guesses?

who said a wild guess couldn't count as a religion. I never really specified what religion i ment when i used the word.

Give me more contradictions that you think are in the Bible and I will clear them up for you

Try these (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html)

...out of curiosity, what's your stance on Gandhi and other good nonchristians?

Bad things happen when one gets hammered with Thor.

gets hammered. no pun intended i assume.

No my friend Alexander's first biography was written by Plato 400 years after his death so basically his account was based mostly on oral tradition and today we are using that tradition as fact so technically we don not know if everything that is said to today about Alexander can be taken seriously.

oh so very true. there is, for example, NO reason to believe that AtheG was the son of zeus instead of the son of phillip. one has to be very careful with all ancient writings because their standards for "the truth" are not the same as ours are today.

SO, to bring it back to god/jesus. when looking at the bible, if you are going to claim some basis in REALITY, you need to check it against contemporary sources and other kinds of evidence from the actual time. problematical in many ways but certain details CAN be checked and when checked the tend to disprove the story of jesus.

Bad things happen when one gets hammered with Thor.

Thor gets wasted and wakes up the next morning in bed beside a woman he can't remember. He nudges her awake and says, "I'm embarrassed to say this, but I don't remember anything of last night. I'm Thor." She replies, "You're thor, I can hardly move!"

:D

gets hammered. no pun intended i assume.

When you get to know Ifreann a bit better you'll realize the puns are always intended. *nod*

gets hammered. no pun intended i assume.

>.>
<.<
Ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies.

There is no place in the Bible that says killing Israelites is just fine that makes no sense God favored the Jewish people. Give me more contradictions that you think are in the Bible and I will clear them up for you God bless you. Maybe you should try to read your self and see what you are saying is correct. Paul said not to take his word or any others word but look it up yourself.

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

look them up

you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you."

I can quite confidently say, with confidence, that I don't know whether god exists or not.

There's probably a fifty-fifty chance either way... Personally I'm betting god doesn't..

I can quite confidently say, with confidence, that I don't know whether god exists or not.

There's probably a fifty-fifty chance either way... Personally I'm betting god doesn't..

are you confident in your answer?

The Pi verse is in Kings I or II somewhere (I personally don't consider it to be a contradiction though, just a lack of precision).

The Matthew/Luke date discrepancy is a major and irreconcilable contradiction however. The key verses are as follows:

Matt 2:1 (tells us that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod)
Matt 2:22 (confirms that this refers to Herod the Great, not his son Herod Archelaus)

Luke 2:1-2 (tells us that Jesus was born during the governership of Quirinius)

Herod the Great died in 4BC, Quirinius became governor in 6AD. So Matthew and Luke contradict by ten years.

Actually archaeological evidence recently discovered has found documents from around the time of Herod that mentioned Quirinius as governor so either there were two Quirinius' or he had another term During Herod's time. I wish I could tell you were I got it from but I learned of this watching a program on TV. Also you refer to the apparent contradiction in II Samuel and I Chronicles which talks about the Wrath of the Lord inciting David to sin and Satan inciting David to sin in the same account in I Chronicles. I really don't have anything to say on that but I have come to believe that since the Wrath of God is spoken of as a seperate entity from God and (Wrath not Anger) The Wrath of the Lord may be just a title for Satan. Kind of like saying a good student is the Pride of his teacher because his taecher is proud of him. Satan is God's Wrath because he makes God angry essentially.

Actually archaeological evidence recently discovered has found documents from around the time of Herod that mentioned Quirinius as governor so either there were two Quirinius' or he had another term During Herod's time. I wish I could tell you were I got it from but I learned of this watching a program on TV. Also you refer to the apparent contradiction in II Samuel and I Chronicles which talks about the Wrath of the Lord inciting David to sin and Satan inciting David to sin in the same account in I Chronicles. I really don't have anything to say on that but I have come to believe that since the Wrath of God is spoken of as a seperate entity from God and (Wrath not Anger) The Wrath of the Lord may be just a title for Satan. Kind of like saying a good student is the Pride of his teacher because his taecher is proud of him. Satan is God's Wrath because he makes God angry essentially.
find it. shouldn't be that hard it seems like that would be pretty ground breaking. And yay for twisting words to make them say what you want them to say. Maybe God's wrath was just some guy's name? Cause then the bible wouldn't be wrong . . .*whistles and walks away*

you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you."

I actually read that the other night I understand why you would be angry but the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Blood is the only atonement for sin that is why people gave sacrifices and were put to death for their sin. Also for minor things like theft and the like payments were given. But in his great love he did not want this to continue so that is why he came to us in the form of Jesus Christ to pay the ultimate price on the cross and take upon himself the sin of the world. Now we don't have to give sacrifices and people do not have to die for their sin, because God took it all upon himself. You see friend you can not read one part of the Bible and say this is what it is all about you have to take it as a whole and see that it is really one story of God's love for the human race.

I actually read that the other night I understand why you would be angry but the Bible says the wages of sin is death. Blood is the only atonement for sin that is why people gave sacrifices and were put to death for their sin. Also for minor things like theft and the like payments were given. But in his great love he did not want this to continue so that is why he came to us in the form of Jesus Christ to pay the ultimate price on the cross and take upon himself the sin of the world. Now we don't have to give sacrifices and people do not have to die for their sin, because God took it all upon himself. You see friend you can not read one part of the Bible and say this is what it is all about you have to take it as a whole and see that it is really one story of God's love for the human race.

me? angry? wha?
heheheh and I was more talking about the entire book of deutronomy. Also you asked me to tell you where it said god condones killing . . .the answr is right there

find it. shouldn't be that hard it seems like that would be pretty ground breaking. And yay for twisting words to make them say what you want them to say. Maybe God's wrath was just some guy's name? Cause then the bible wouldn't be wrong . . .*whistles and walks away*

You know you do not have to be rude in your statements you can look it up yourself I am sorry if I can not remember the program I saw that night if I knew I would have given it to. God bless you.

Actually archaeological evidence recently discovered has found documents from around the time of Herod that mentioned Quirinius as governor so either there were two Quirinius' or he had another term During Herod's time. I wish I could tell you were I got it from but I learned of this watching a program on TV. Also you refer to the apparent contradiction in II Samuel and I Chronicles which talks about the Wrath of the Lord inciting David to sin and Satan inciting David to sin in the same account in I Chronicles. I really don't have anything to say on that but I have come to believe that since the Wrath of God is spoken of as a seperate entity from God and (Wrath not Anger) The Wrath of the Lord may be just a title for Satan. Kind of like saying a good student is the Pride of his teacher because his taecher is proud of him. Satan is God's Wrath because he makes God angry essentially.

I'll be nice and try and save you some time. If the Bible were shown to be historically accurate it would not prove that the Christian God exists.

heheheheh fair enough and I appologize for the rudeness .I'll stop being rude when you stop quoting scripture at me agreed? Also I just Frankly believe that nothing of the sort has happened as I assume it would be fairly big news. Lastly you can't believe everything you see on TV and as you made the statement the burden of proof is on you. I'm not gonna spend time looking for something you claim exists

me? angry? wha?
heheheh and I was more talking about the entire book of deutronomy. Also you asked me to tell you where it said god condones killing . . .the answr is right there

No you said that God condoned killing Israelites you may have made a mistake in your statement but you did put that. Also there is quite a big difference between killing out of anger in social surroundings and carrying out capital punishment and war.

heheheheh fair enough and I appologize for the rudeness .I'll stop being rude when you stop quoting scripture at me agreed? Also I just Frankly believe that nothing of the sort has happened as I assume it would be fairly big news. Lastly you can't believe everything you see on TV and as you made the statement the burden of proof is on you. I'm not gonna spend time looking for something you claim exists

Fair enough brother

I'll be nice and try and save you some time. If the Bible were shown to be historically accurate it would not prove that the Christian God exists.

Thanks :) unfortunately I don't think it'll help much

Fair enough brother

Actually you quoted more scripture at me than I did at you, if I did not know better I would think you were some kind of undercover pastor lol

Thanks :) unfortunately I don't think it'll help much

You have let your spirit tell you

Fair enough brother

my thanks

heheheheh fair enough and I appologize for the rudeness .I'll stop being rude when you stop quoting scripture at me agreed? Also I just Frankly believe that nothing of the sort has happened as I assume it would be fairly big news. Lastly you can't believe everything you see on TV and as you made the statement the burden of proof is on you. I'm not gonna spend time looking for something you claim exists

Actually you quoted more scripture at me, if I did not know any better I would think you were some kind of underground pastor LOL

Actually you quoted more scripture at me than I did at you, if I did not know better I would think you were some kind of undercover pastor lol

lol ya nope not a pastor thats for sure. But, in truth, I'm interested in the bibal and biblical history. It's just that I don't believe god exists

I think I am going to another thread bye

/threadjack

Actually archaeological evidence recently discovered has found documents from around the time of Herod that mentioned Quirinius as governor so either there were two Quirinius' or he had another term During Herod's time. I wish I could tell you were I got it from but I learned of this watching a program on TV.

I'd be very interested in seeing a source for that, as it sounds very dubious: Judaea was only assimulated as a Roman-controlled area with a governer after Archelaus was ousted in 6AD. Herod was popular with the Romans, and they allowed him to rule as a client king without intervention.

Also you refer to the apparent contradiction in II Samuel and I Chronicles

Nope, that was someone else.

This is my God, and I walk in his footsteps.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/tasty1234/ChuckNorris.png

I think I am going to another thread bye

Usual tactic - throw scripture and when that doesn't work, cut and run.

Some random thoughts:

1. Science tells us how AND why something happens. Religion attempts to tell us why. Unfortunately, the answer to any question seems to be the same "because God said so."

2. God does not explain the supernatural (unless you really like that "because I said so" answer). The supernatural can be quantified; we simply lack the necessary skill and equipment. So far.

3. Belief in historical figures doesn't occur because someone writes a book or records oral tradition; it occurs because archealogical evidence supports the writings. The American Indians have a strong oral tradition; if I record it does that make it fact? I mean they believed this stuff for a realllllly long time so it like HAS to be true.... right?

4. The wages of sin may be death, but the salary of virtue is pretty much the same.

If you believe in God - good for you. If you don't - even better.

"Keep company with those who seek the truth and run fast from those who think they've found it."

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/ga/ul/7851087783/inlineimg/Y/JesusSavesMotivator.jpg

No my friend Alexander's first biography was written by Plato 400 years after his death so basically his account was based mostly on oral tradition and today we are using that tradition as fact so technically we don not know if everything that is said to today about Alexander can be taken seriously.

I'm sorry but this is simply nonsense. You're confusing the concept of 'earliest extant biography' with 'earliest biography'. Plato may have been the earliest extant biographer (I don't know and I haven't got time to check just now) but there were numerous pre-Platonic accounts which we sadly no longer have access to, including Alexander's personal historian!

God Exists.

He communicates with us, He is there to guide or lead us when we're willing to follow it. Humans instinctively know this.

God Exists.

He communicates with us, He is there to guide or lead us when we're willing to follow it. Humans instinctively know this.

Are you insinuating that we atheists aren't human? :p

Are you insinuating that we atheists aren't human? :p

Not at all. :)

God Exists.

He communicates with us, He is there to guide or lead us when we're willing to follow it. Humans instinctively know this.

Which is why there is not a single human who does not believe that God exists.

God Exists.

He communicates with us, He is there to guide or lead us when we're willing to follow it. Humans instinctively know this.

So - atheists aren't human?

So - atheists aren't human?

Oh goodness what a shock, GnI is trying to put words in my mouth. I never could have seen THAT coming.

Try to keep up. Agenda07 brought that up already.

Oh goodness what a shock, GnI is trying to put words in my mouth. I never could have seen THAT coming.

Try to keep up. Agenda07 brought that up already.

To be fair, your post, taken at face value, seems to imply that all atheists are either

1) not human, or

2) lying about their (lack of) belief.

Oh goodness what a shock, GnI is trying to put words in my mouth. I never could have seen THAT coming.


I'm not trying to put anything into your mouth.

You said: "Humans instinctively know this".

I don't instinctively know this, therefore... I'm not human?


Try to keep up. Agenda07 brought that up already.

Try to keep up? Agenda's post appeared on here seconds before mine.

And, while Agenda brought it up - I didn't see a response that actually works.

To be fair, your post, taken at face value, seems to imply that all atheists are either

1) not human, or

2) lying about their (lack of) belief.

Some people may take it that way but I think it's a defensive reaction that's misplaced.

I think people who don't believe in God are either overriding that instinctive knowledge or do believe it deep down and have an axe to grind. (But I wouldn't go so far as to say the difference between the two is easy to see.)

But frankly, I think if somebody throws down a serious gauntlet to imply that somehow I said that to de-humanize Atheists (or if they think I'm dumb enough not to have seen that case) is being ridiculous.

To be fair, your post, taken at face value, seems to imply that all atheists are either

1) not human, or

2) lying about their (lack of) belief.

It doesn't seem to imply it - that's what it says.

It says ALL humans know this instinctively.

There are only three possibilities: 1) The comment explicitly states that atheists are not human; 2) Atheists know, and just pretend not to, or; 3) the comment is bullshit.

Yes.

Can I prove it with an equation? No. Can I pull out some fossil or odd-smelling substance and say, "Here: God exists". No, I cannot. This is because God transcends physical existance. He, for lack of a better pronoun, exists on a higher plane as a higher power.

Some people do use the existance of Human suffering and the truth (Yes, I say truth) of Evolution to discount the possibility of a supreme intelligence. But if God created for Man an inherant utopia, how could we be human? How could our free will be exercised. As Victor Hugo so correctly puts it, "Can one be truly good if they have never had the oppurtunity to act badly?" By giving us an imperfect existance in which to lead our finite physical lives, He grants us the opputunity to exist as independant entities. Evolution? I see no reason why such a process cannot neccessarily arise through divine intention or even guidance. It gived Humanity something to explore, and adds depth and value to creation.

Neo-Brettonia is indeed correct in his proposition. God does communicate with Humanity. Through Christ, through miracles, even to some people through prayer.

It doesn't seem to imply it - that's what it says.

It says ALL humans know this instinctively.

There are only three possibilities: 1) The comment explicitly states that atheists are not human; 2) Atheists know, and just pretend not to, or; 3) the comment is bullshit.

Well, that's exactly how I read it, but I figured I'd at least be fair and give a chance to try to explain it and present another possibility that hadn't occurred to me.

Some people may take it that way but I think it's a defensive reaction that's misplaced.


Taking your words to mean what they say is a defence reaction?


I think people who don't believe in God are either overriding that instinctive knowledge


I'm an atheist. I don't believe in god(s), and I'm not over-riding any instinct.


...or do believe it deep down and have an axe to grind.


I'm an atheist. I don't believe in god(s), and I don't believe it deep down, and have an axe to grind.


(But I wouldn't go so far as to say the difference between the two is easy to see.)


That's okay - there is no difference between the two. They're both bullshit.


But frankly, I think if somebody throws down a serious gauntlet to imply that somehow I said that to de-humanize Atheists is being ridiculous.

Awesome. By the same token, if I say "anyone who isn't a mouthbreathing dullard with sweaty dewflaps knows that there is no god", you'll heartily agree?

Well, that's exactly how I read it, but I figured I'd at least be fair and give a chance to try to explain it and present another possibility that hadn't occurred to me.

I appreciate that, because while I can't always anticipate how my comments will be interpreted, I do think the fair response is to seek clarification rather than try to use those comments as a club.

Yes.

Can I prove it with an equation? No. Can I pull out some fossil or odd-smelling substance and say, "Here: God exists". No, I cannot. This is because God transcends physical existance. He, for lack of a better pronoun, exists on a higher plane as a higher power.

Some people do use the existance of Human suffering and the truth (Yes, I say truth) of Evolution to discount the possibility of a supreme intelligence. But if God created for Man an inherant utopia, how could we be human? How could our free will be exercised. As Victor Hugo so correctly puts it, "Can one be truly good if they have never had the oppurtunity to act badly?" By giving us an imperfect existance in which to lead our finite physical lives, He grants us the opputunity to exist as independant entities. Evolution? I see no reason why such a process cannot neccessarily arise through divine intention or even guidance. It gived Humanity something to explore, and adds depth and value to creation.


So - you're taking the fact that the world is crappy... as evidence of an omnibenevolent god?

That's quite a twist.


Neo-Brettonia is indeed correct in his proposition. God does communicate with Humanity. Through Christ, through miracles, even to some people through prayer.

Or, on the other hand - there are a lot of people that see what they want to see, or are otherwise delusional.

How is the 'god is real' argument empirically any better than 'religious people are crazy'?

I appreciate that, because while I can't always anticipate how my comments will be interpreted, I do think the fair response is to seek clarification rather than try to use those comments as a club.

Your 'clarification' was that atheists are lying.

I'm not lying.

So which is it? Are atheists not human, or was the opening comment just stupidity?

I appreciate that, because while I can't always anticipate how my comments will be interpreted, I do think the fair response is to seek clarification rather than try to use those comments as a club.

And to be honest, I still don't see any possibilities, if we accept the premise of your post, other than me being either 1) non-human or 2) a liar (even if it means I'm lying to myself as well as others.)

And last I checked, I am human, and I'm fairly certain I was intellectually honest in coming to my conclusions. Indeed, any bias would have led me the other way, as I used to be a (fairly committed) Christian, as some of my very early posts on NSG may reveal.

Honestly, I'd be quite a bit insulted if I wasn't already so used to theists calling me a liar.

Yes.

Can I prove it with an equation? No. Can I pull out some fossil or odd-smelling substance and say, "Here: God exists". No, I cannot. This is because God transcends physical existance. He, for lack of a better pronoun, exists on a higher plane as a higher power.

Some people do use the existance of Human suffering and the truth (Yes, I say truth) of Evolution to discount the possibility of a supreme intelligence. But if God created for Man an inherant utopia, how could we be human? How could our free will be exercised. As Victor Hugo so correctly puts it, "Can one be truly good if they have never had the oppurtunity to act badly?" By giving us an imperfect existance in which to lead our finite physical lives, He grants us the opputunity to exist as independant entities. Evolution? I see no reason why such a process cannot neccessarily arise through divine intention or even guidance. It gived Humanity something to explore, and adds depth and value to creation.

Neo-Brettonia is indeed correct in his proposition. God does communicate with Humanity. Through Christ, through miracles, even to some people through prayer.

Thats what i've been trying to say this whole time.

Your 'clarification' was that atheists are lying.

I'm not lying.

So which is it? Are atheists not human, or was the opening comment just stupidity?

Your last question is predicated on the assumption that I take your word for it when you assert that you aren't lying. (Mind you, the question poses a false dichotomy anyway but that's beside the point. Don't hold me to your limited point of view.)

...which strikes me as hypocrisy considering you've called me a liar a few of times in the past. Why should your word mean any more to me than you've indicated mine means to you?

Neo-Brettonia is indeed correct in his proposition. God does communicate with Humanity. Through Christ, through miracles, even to some people through prayer.
does he now? so how exactly do you know which god? you "just feel it" or what?cause frankly I find this line absolutely ridiculous.

Whether God exists... simply a matter of opinion... theres no proof to show he does, however i do not belive science can explain everything in life. I personally go to mass weekly, i do not however believe everything that is written in the bible. I think God is doubtless a good thing, as the idea of a "God" causes people to be better to their fellow man. I dont think God interferes in this life, but id like to think that there is something after this life. First post btw so i hope this works

Your last question is predicated on the assumption that I take your word for it when you assert that you aren't lying. (Mind you, the question poses a false dichotomy anyway but that's beside the point. Don't hold me to your limited point of view.)

...which strikes me as hypocrisy considering you've called me a liar a few of times in the past. Why should your word mean any more to me than you've indicated mine means to you?
Ido not believe god exists. I am human. Therefor your previous post is bullshit

welcome to NSG!

nice post.

And to be honest, I still don't see any possibilities, if we accept the premise of your post, other than me being either 1) non-human or 2) a liar (even if it means I'm lying to myself as well as others.)

And last I checked, I am human, and I'm fairly certain I was intellectually honest in coming to my conclusions. Indeed, any bias would have led me the other way, as I used to be a (fairly committed) Christian, as some of my very early posts on NSG may reveal.

Honestly, I'd be quite a bit insulted if I wasn't already so used to theists calling me a liar.

I don't mean to question your honesty and I apologize if it comes off that way.

I'll try and clarify a bit here so bear with me.

The thing is, I think that humans are born with an instinctive knowledge of the existence of their Creator. I think that instinct can be overridden, like I said. Where I think I was unclear was by not elaborating on what that means.

I think life experience can definitely override that. I think you can imagine what kind of stuff I'm talking about. People can be convinced by words, by events and by emotions.

So when I say it can be overridden I'm not talking about honesty, either with oneself or with others.

Whether God exists... simply a matter of opinion... theres no proof to show he does, however i do not belive science can explain everything in life. I personally go to mass weekly, i do not however believe everything that is written in the bible. I think God is doubtless a good thing, as the idea of a "God" causes people to be better to their fellow man. I dont think God interferes in this life, but id like to think that there is something after this life. First post btw so i hope this works

nice on the first post., Welcome to NSG


so how exactly does "god" help you to be better? "god" caused the crusades, The slaughter done by hitler, 9/11 and countless others. (and I mean countless, witch Hunts, inquisition the troubles ). please reveal to me the secret behind god's "goodness"

Ido not believe god exists. I am human. Therefor your previous post is bullshit

RTFF. Bullshit flows in both directions.

so how exactly does "god" help you to be better? "god" caused the crusades, The slaughter done by hitler, 9/11 and countless others. (and I mean countless, witch Hunts, inquisition the troubles ). please reveal to me the secret behind god's "goodness"

I was rather under the impression that those events were caused by people.

I don't mean to question your honesty and I apologize if it comes off that way.

I'll try and clarify a bit here so bear with me.

The thing is, I think that humans are born with an instinctive knowledge of the existence of their Creator. I think that instinct can be overridden, like I said. Where I think I was unclear was by not elaborating on what that means.

I think life experience can definitely override that. I think you can imagine what kind of stuff I'm talking about. People can be convinced by words, by events and by emotions.

So when I say it can be overridden I'm not talking about honesty, either with oneself or with others.
How would you go about backing up that point exactly? cause Neo frankly I'm thinking your straying farther and farther into just making things up

nice on the first post., Welcome to NSG


so how exactly does "god" help you to be better? "god" caused the crusades, The slaughter done by hitler, 9/11 and countless others. (and I mean countless, witch Hunts, inquisition the troubles ). please reveal to me the secret behind god's "goodness"

It is because of god that people go on mission trips, give to the poor, and are just generally nicer to people. Humans have free will (thanks to god by the way) and can take their religious teachings anyway they choose to.

God also supposedly wrote the ten commandments, that told people that killing was wrong. There is no way that you cant say that at some stage in history, the fear of a hell has stopped someone from committing a crime. Different peoples interporetations of God caused all of them atrocities you mentioned, not God itself. Its very possible rthat they mightnt have happened if no one believed in a God, but being realistic, religion was here for a long time and will still be here for a long time.
But id like to think it averages out that its done more good than harm. :D

i think any idiot moran that thinks god dosent exist is on something that they need to take in lesser dosses

does he now? so how exactly do you know which god? you "just feel it" or what?cause frankly I find this line absolutely ridiculous.

I don't know which god. I don't claim to know which god for sure, but as a Monotheist, if there's a God doing any contacting at all, it's the God. I don't know how many gods are out there, but I believe there's only one. Call it arrogrance, call it zealotism. But I don't think that it's "my" god, and that X, Y & Z's gods are some sort of illusion, nor that mine is the one true faith. There are millions of faiths, millions of names, and millions of theological propositions. But I believe that they all go back to the same entitity, who in my personal speculation, be it right or wrong, is more or less the Christian God.

Nor do I claim to have been contacted by God myself, so I can't say I know what it "feels" like.

i think any idiot moran that thinks god dosent exist is on something that they need to take in lesser dosses
oh lord that made me laugh!

It is because of god that people go on mission trips, give to the poor, and are just generally nicer to people. Humans have free will (thanks to god by the way) and can take their religious teachings anyway they choose to.
done that without the countless years of slaughter etc. (I give to charity and have been a part of house building and charity trips overseas and . . .get this . . .I'm not religious. in any way.

done that without the countless years of slaughter etc. (I give to charity and have been a part of house building and charity trips overseas and . . .get this . . .I'm not religious. in any way.

I glad that you don't need religious motivation to do good things then.

I was rather under the impression that those events were caused by people.

people who believed in god and/or to people who believed in god. without those many of these would never have happend

i think any idiot moran that thinks god dosent exist is on something that they need to take in lesser dosses

no meds for me maybe your the moran, moron

people who believed in god and/or to people who believed in god. without those many of these would never have happend

I find that religion is just a guise used to cover schemes to gain power or wealth. I don't think religion really causes those things.

I don't know which god. I don't claim to know which god for sure, but as a Monotheist, if there's a God doing any contacting at all, it's the God. I don't know how many gods are out there, but I believe there's only one. Call it arrogrance, call it zealotism. But I don't think that it's "my" god, and that X, Y & Z's gods are some sort of illusion, nor that mine is the one true faith. There are millions of faiths, millions of names, and millions of theological propositions. But I believe that they all go back to the same entitity, who in my personal speculation, be it right or wrong, is more or less the Christian God.

Nor do I claim to have been contacted by God myself, so I can't say I know what it "feels" like.
fair enough I'll take that. Nice :) *nod*

no meds for me maybe your the moran, moron

gotta admit that is not looking good.

I find that religion is just a guise used to cover schemes to gain power or wealth. I don't think religion really causes those things.

without "him" they couldn't have happened. No backing for the crusades without the church. No inquisition at all without the church. No one to target as different without the church (at least not so many people. that ones a bit weak I'll admit)

gotta admit that is not looking good.

lol ya see that kinda post does a lot more harm to your cause than good heheheh I honestly sometimes wonder if there isn't somebody out there posting like that just to sap strength from pro religious arguments :p

Your last question is predicated on the assumption that I take your word for it when you assert that you aren't lying.


Not at all. I know I'm not lying - so your question must be either saying I'm not human.. or it must just be bullshit.

I don't care if YOU take my word for it, it makes no difference to the question what your opinion is.

And - since there is no god, surely it is YOU that is lying?


(Mind you, the question poses a false dichotomy anyway but that's beside the point. Don't hold me to your limited point of view.)


Limited point of view? Cute.

Please, explain.


...which strikes me as hypocrisy considering you've called me a liar a few of times in the past.


I can't recall calling you a liar, to be honest - but then I don't really keep close track. So - humour me - when did I call you a liar?

Show me a time I've called you a liar, and I'll show you a time you've lied.


Why should your word mean any more to me than you've indicated mine means to you?

I don't care what my word means to you.

Here's the problem - you're telling me that atheists are all lying. That's a lot of us - all lying, according to you.

But, to conflict with that, I know I'm not lying, so your generalisation starts to look like it was based on a pretty flawed assumption.

The reason the crusades started was so control of the holy land would go to europe that way more money could be made off pilgrams and the spice trade.

I don't mean to question your honesty and I apologize if it comes off that way.

I'll try and clarify a bit here so bear with me.

The thing is, I think that humans are born with an instinctive knowledge of the existence of their Creator. I think that instinct can be overridden, like I said. Where I think I was unclear was by not elaborating on what that means.

I think life experience can definitely override that. I think you can imagine what kind of stuff I'm talking about. People can be convinced by words, by events and by emotions.

So when I say it can be overridden I'm not talking about honesty, either with oneself or with others.

I think humans are born knowing that there is no god. I think that instinct can be over-ridden. People can be convinced by words, by events and by emotions.

No actually - I don't. But it's interesting to try it on. I don't pretend to know what instincts another person was born with. Hubris, it appears, is not my sin.

lol ya see that kinda post does a lot more harm to your cause than good heheheh I honestly sometimes wonder if there isn't somebody out there posting like that just to sap strength from pro religious arguments :p

I know it doesn't help us when these crazy religious fanatics just jump in and say god exist and all that stuff. What we need are people who can remain calm and collected because in all seriousness nobody is going to be converted by all this arguing.

people who believed in god and/or to people who believed in god. without those many of these would never have happend

I can't account for the actions carried out by people claiming to be acting in the interests of God through Islam, purely out of lack of education about Islamic teachings.

You brought up an interesting point though: Christianity and Judaism believe that God told us not to kill, lie, steal, covet, etc.

Now, are they truly following the teachings of their religion if they break those commandments? I think not.

I brought it up in NeoBret's thread a while ago when criticising Christian fundamentalists who kill, steal, and rape while waving a cross as some form of alibi. I don't have a degree in Theology or Theistory, but I am a practicing Christian, and I know that Jesus never told us to kill in the name of faith or to have multiple wives to satisfy our own sexual appetites while keeping with monogamous practice. These people may believe in God, but they are not acting in accordance with his will.

fair enough I'll take that. Nice :) *nod*

Thank you. Damn,... now I feel like shit about my last post.

http://www.gloryofwar.com/forums/style_emoticons/dark/wave.gif

I can't account for the actions carried out by people claiming to be acting in the interests of God through Islam, purely out of lack of education about Islamic teachings.

You brought up an interesting point though: Christianity and Judaism believe that God told us not to kill, lie, steal, covet, etc.

Now, are they truly following the teachings of their religion if they break those commandments? I think not.

I brought it up in NeoBret's thread a while ago when criticising Christian fundamentalists who kill, steal, and rape while waving a cross as some form of alibi. I don't have a degree in Theology or Theistory, but I am a practicing Christian, and I know that Jesus never told us to kill in the name of faith or to have multiple wives to satisfy our own sexual appetites while keeping with monogamous practice. These people may believe in God, but they are not acting in accordance with his will.
doesn't matter they do things because of their interpretation of YOUR god (o and btw we had this argument already earlier on but in specific parts of the old testament god not only says killing is fine but actually orders it). Secondly christianity in its "pure (ie. original form) has very little difference from islams teachings. Oh, and it does condemn homosexuals to death and perdition alongside saying Women are valueless.

The reason the crusades started was so control of the holy land would go to europe that way more money could be made off pilgrams and the spice trade.

no religion=no motivation for the people not in control = no crusades.

Thank you. Damn,... now I feel like shit about my last post.

lol no problem. And I feel bad about my last one too . . .truce??? *waves white Flag*

I think people who don't believe in God are either overriding that instinctive knowledge or do believe it deep down and have an axe to grind. (But I wouldn't go so far as to say the difference between the two is easy to see.)
I don't believe in any god or gods, with or without capitalisation. There's no overriding of anything required in my case - a deity-based reality just doesn't make sense to my mind. I also do have something of an axe to grind, but only with the attitudes that exist amongst some religious people that cause them to say things like you just have. There are many other religious people who don't feel the need to evangelise/proselytise/bear witness/call-it-what-you-will but are instead content to hold their own beliefs to themselves, and I respect that.

This 'instinctive knowledge' that you believe somehow proves the existence of your deity has, over the years, brought us a multitude of supposed gods including, but not limited to (deep breaths will be required)

Abaangui, Abassi, Abuk, Adekagagwaa, Adroa, Adroanzi, Aegir, Ag, Agni,Aha Njoku, Ahaw Kin, Aholi, Ahsonnutli, Ahti, Ahto, Aja, Aje, Aji-Suki-Taka-Hiko-Ne, Ajok, Ala, Allowat Sakima, Alpan, Altjira, Amaterasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Ame-no-Uzume, Amotken, An, Anansi, Angwusnasomtaka, Anshar, Anu, Anubis, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apollo, Apoyan Tachi, Apsu, Arebati, Ares, Artemis, Asa, Asase Ya, Asherah, Ashur, Atai, Atea, Athena, Attis, Atum, Auseklis, Awitelin Tsta, Awonawilona, Ayaba, Baal, Bacabs, Bacchus, Baiame, Balac, Balam, Baldur, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bangputtis, Bast, Belenus...

...Belobog, Bendis, Benzai-ten, Bes, Bia, Bikeh Hozho, Bishamon-ten, Bobbi-bobbi, Bolon tza cab, Bomazi, Bragi, Brahma, Bran, Brekyirihunuade, Brigit, Bumba, Bunjil, Canopus, Centeotl, Ceres, Ceridwen, Cernunos, Cghene, Chac, Chalchiuhtlicue, Chang E, Chantico, Chi You, Chicomecoatl, Chimata-no-Kami, Chiuta, Chuku, Cihuacoatl, Cislobog, Crnobog, Cronus, Cupid, Cybele, Da, Dagda, Daikoku-ten, Dajbog, Damkina, Danu, Daramulum, Dekla, Demeter, Denka, Diana, Dievs, Dilga, Dionysus, Djanggawul, Dragon Kings, Dyaush-pita, Ea, Eagentci, Egungun-oya, Ehecatl, Eingana, El, El-Gabal, Enki, Enlil, Enlil, Enurta, Eos, Epona, Eshu, Estanatelhi, Freya, Freyr, Frigg, Fukurokuju, Gaia, Galeru, Gamab, Ganesh, Gaol, Gbadu, Geb, Gebeleizis, Gendenwitha, Gleti, Glispa, Gnowee, Gohone, Gong Gong, Gu, Guan Di, Guanyin, Gwydion, Gyhldeptis, Hadad, Hades, Hagones, Hahgwehdaetgan, Hahgwehdiyu, Hanuman, Haokah, Hapi, Hasteoltoi...

...Hastshehogan, Hathor, Hawenniyo, Hebe, Hecate, Heget, Heimdall, Heitsi-eibib, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Hiruko, Hisagita-imisi, Hodur, Ho-Masubi, Horos, Horus, Hotei-osho, Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hunah Ku, Idun, Igaluk, Imhotep, Ina, Inanna, Inari, Indra, Inti, Iosheka, Ishtar, Isis, Itzamna, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chel, Ixtlilton, Izanagi, Izanami, Janus, Jaro, Julunggul, Jumala, Juno, Juok, Jupiter, Jurojin, Jurupari, Kaakwha, Kagu-tsuchi, Kali, Kane Milohai, Karta, Kewkwaxa'we, Khepry, Khnum, Khonvoum, Kidili, Kingu, Kishar, Kishelemukong, Kokopelli, Koledo, Kon, Koyangwuti, Krishna, Kukulcan, Kunapipi, Kura-Okami, Kwaku Ananse, Lada, Lagua, Lakshmi, Lisa, Loki, Loko, Lugh, Lyr, Maahes, Ma'at, Macuilxochitl, Maia, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Mamlambo, Manannan mac Lir, Manco Capac, Mangar-kunjer-kunja, Marduk, Mars, Maui, Mawu, Mayahuel, Mbaba Mwana Waresa, Melletele, Menhit, Menrva, Mercury, Metztli, Mictlantecihuatl, Mictlantecuhtli, Mielikki, Minerva, Mithras, Mont, Morrigan, Mot, Mummu, Muyingwa, Nabu, Nai-No-Kami, Nammu,
Nanabozho, Nankil'slas, Nanna, Nanook, Naunet, Neith, Nemain, Nephthys, Neptune, Nerrivik, Nethuns, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Niord, Nuadha, Numakulla...

...Nut, Nuwa, Nyalitch, Nyame, Oba, Obatala, Occupirn, Odin, Odudua, Ogma, O-Kuni-Nushi, Oloddumare, Olokun, Olorun, Ometecuhtli, Onatha, Orunmila, Oschun, Oshunmare, Osiris, Otso, O-Wata-Tsu-Mi, Oya, Pachacamac, Pah, Pan, Pangu, Papa, Parjanya, Parvathi, Patecatl, Paynal, Pekko, Pele, Perkele, Perkons, Perkunatete, Perkunos, Perun, Pikullos, Pinga, Pluto, Plutus, Poseidon, Potrimpos, Prithivi mata, Proserpine, Ptah, Pundjel, Purusha, Quetzalcoatl, Ra, Rangi, Rauni, Rhea, Rongo, Sakpata, Saraswathi, Saturn, Saule, Sedna, Sekhmnet, Selene, Sengen-Sama, Set, Shakpana, Shakuru, Shamash, Shango, Shina-To-Be, Shina-Tsu-Hiko, Shiva, Sif, Simargl, Sin, Sint Holo, Sobek, Sogbo, Sol Invictus, Soma, Stribog, Susa-no-Wo, Svarog, Svetovid, Swaigstigr, Ta'axet, Taiowa...

...Taka-Okami, Take-Mikazuchi, Tapio, Tefnut, Teoyaomqui, The Adityas, The Asura, The Aswini, The Aten, The Rudras, The Vasus, The Visvedevas, Thor, Thoth, Tia, Tiamat, Tinia, Tirawa, Tlaloc, Tlazolteotl, Toho, Tonacatecuhtli, Tonatiuh, Tonenili, Tore, Torngasoak, Triglav, Tsohanoai, Tsui'goab, Tsuku-Yomi, Tuoni, Turan, Tyr, Uke-Mochi, Ukko, uKqili, Ulanji, Umvelinqangi, Uni, Unkulunkulu, Uranus, Uranus, Ushas, Utu, Vali, Vayu, Veles, Venus, Vesta, Viracocha, Vishnu, Voltumna, Vulcan, Wakahiru-Me, Walo, Wawalag, Wemicus, Whope, Wi, Wuriupranili, Xbalanque, Xevioso, Xi Balba, Xi Wangmu, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xochipilli, Yacatecuhtli, Yahweh, Yam, Yama, Yansan, Yebisu, Yemaja, Yi, Yolkai Estasan, Yum Kaax, Yurlungur, Zamolxis, Zao Jun, Zaramama, Zeus, Zinsi and Zinsu.

That's just drawn from my list to date... I know that there are many, many more.

The point of that little spamfest? Well, it provokes a few questions...

What, other than the fact that you're surrounded by people who believe it to be some kind of Truth with a capital 'T', makes you think that the deity of your religion is 'the one and only'?

Given the sheer number of deities invented by people over the years, what are the odds that the one dreamt up by a small tribe of sheep-herders in the Middle East a few thousand years ago is the 'the one and only'? Occam's Razor alone compels me to believe that, since not all of them can exist, it is more likely that none of them exist.

Could it not be the case that the only reason that belief in one particular version of deity-mania has persisted so long is that it was adopted by the most powerful civilisation on the planet at a crucial stage in history? That it was able to persist because the organisation who styled themselves as the keepers of that 'Truth' were able to write their own rules for what was and was not to be considered 'Gospel', and that they remained unchallenged for centuries?

Could it even be the case that the illiterate masses (the majority of the population of the West prior to the so-called Age of Enlightenment) were simply being engineered to believe the pontifications of the clergy, and that this has led to the majority of the beliefs held by congregations of organised religions today?

there was no motivation about it. It was just how they conviced people to go to war. the motivation for the leaders of the church was all the money and power they could get.

I don't mean to question your honesty and I apologize if it comes off that way.

I'll try and clarify a bit here so bear with me.

The thing is, I think that humans are born with an instinctive knowledge of the existence of their Creator. I think that instinct can be overridden, like I said. Where I think I was unclear was by not elaborating on what that means.

I think life experience can definitely override that. I think you can imagine what kind of stuff I'm talking about. People can be convinced by words, by events and by emotions.

So when I say it can be overridden I'm not talking about honesty, either with oneself or with others.
What leads you to think most people instinctively know God (specifically the Mormon one(?)), though?
If that were true, would not most people raised in households where God and religion are not mentioned either way instinctively be theists?
I find that most people that aren't specifically raised from birth (I would even say indoctrinated) to be theists tend not to be.

hey it's God Himself. Thanks for joining us perhaps you can convince our atheist friends were we could not. :)

snip
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH . . . holy! dude! to much time spent on this. even so that was . . .impressive *bows*

I happen to believe (s)he/it does exist. However, my belief system also tells me that the nature of God dictates that his/her/its existence not be provable by the scientific method and that you either believe without proof or you disbelieve because of a lack of proof - An agnostic, someone who is willing to believe provided they are shown the proof, is, effectively, an atheist because proof is not possible and hence (s)he doesn't believe.

Jesus Christ where did you get that list.

*snip*

You've seemed to have forgotten to add Eris to your list.. You're not some cabbage-like-thing are you?

No my friend Alexander's first biography was written by Plato 400 years after his death so basically his account was based mostly on oral tradition and today we are using that tradition as fact so technically we don not know if everything that is said to today about Alexander can be taken seriously.

Well, since no one bothered to refute this nonsense. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
approx. birthdate: 428 BC
approx. death: 347 BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
birthdate: 356 BC
death: 323 BC

So no, Plato did not write a biography 400 years after Alexanders death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#Greek_and_Latin_sources
There are the sources for his life and deeds.

there was no motivation about it. It was just how they conviced people to go to war. the motivation for the leaders of the church was all the money and power they could get.

exactly. Without that power the crusades would not have happened as soldiers and their lords would not have fought for the churches cause (o and there would have been no church)

I doubt it. If for some reason there had been no church at the time I'm sure another excuse would have been cooked up over why war was nesscesary(is that how you spell it?) in Israel.

If everyone was athiest i'm sure people would still find reasons to go to war.

Like what? it was not financially advantageous for any one else. and that land wasn't useful save to the church members. Who would have fought for them? especially when there was trouble at home (Richard the Lionhearted)

ok fine but that doesn't mean that the christian religion is evil. Just that it can sucome to human nature just as everyone else can.

He spoke to me once. I tried to ignore it. But I couldn't. Because of Him I'm now a Christian. I used to be like some of you, saying "How could he exist in a world with people like George Bush and Saddam(sp?) Hussein?" Then I realized, he places people like myself in the world to heal it from people like them. If you have never heard Him, then you are deaf. To a world of pain, suffering, and evil. And if you are incapable of hearing him, I weep for you. I know he exists, because I felt him touch a part of me that I thought was unshakeable. He is a force you can block out, but once you are touched by him, it lingers, never leaving your mind.

You assume God is a nice guy. It's entirely possible that god exists and is just a bastard.
Indeed, if he does exist, he's a bastard - just read the Old Testament - all that murder, genocide, rape and incest - in his name.................

...to much time spent on this...

Jesus Christ where did you get that list.
It started about 15 years ago. I was preparing for a debate and decided that my position ("Pascal's Wager is not a valid reason to believe") would be strengthened if I could come up with a list of a couple of dozen deities that were distinct from the biblical God. Since then, I've been adding to it as I come across new ones in my reading. At one stage the list had many more on it, but I've been culling it down whenever I become satisfied that two or more of the names actually refer to the same deity.

It's far from perfect, but I find it to be a valuable resource from time to time.

You've seemed to have forgotten to add Eris to your list.. You're not some cabbage-like-thing are you?
Hehe, I should have known that a fnord reference would be incoming at some point. :P

Eris was actually on the list for a while, as was Enyo. I appear to have cut them both instead of only cutting one (as per the culling I mentioned above). I'll restore one of them (or maybe just use Strife) at some point... whenever I get time.

For now, I shall simply seek shelter behind my "I know that there are many, many more" disclaimer ;)

Well, since no one bothered to refute this nonsense. . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
approx. birthdate: 428 BC
approx. death: 347 BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great
birthdate: 356 BC
death: 323 BC

So no, Plato did not write a biography 400 years after Alexanders death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great#Greek_and_Latin_sources
There are the sources for his life and deeds.
nice ownage!

He spoke to me once. I tried to ignore it. But I couldn't. Because of Him I'm now a Christian. I used to be like some of you, saying "How could he exist in a world with people like George Bush and Saddam(sp?) Hussein?" Then I realized, he places people like myself in the world to heal it from people like them. If you have never heard Him, then you are deaf. To a world of pain, suffering, and evil. And if you are incapable of hearing him, I weep for you. I know he exists, because I felt him touch a part of me that I thought was unshakeable. He is a force you can block out, but once you are touched by him, it lingers, never leaving your mind.

meds, take em
cat scan, get one

ASAP

Why isn't the flying spaghetti monster on the list?

I would say its wrong to insult someones religion but i bet you have been insulted for being an athiest.

o definatly on the other hand how representative is that other guy of all christians??? (not very I hope!)

-Shakes head- I'm treated for Bipolar Manic Depressive. But i know what I felt was real. I'm not gonna argue with you because I was the same way until 6 months ago. Just give a church a chance and you may feel it too. But you probably won't. So why am i wasting my time? Because I have nothing to do while waiting for an Interview with my college program director. Wow. I need a new hobby. Maybe underwater basket weaving. That sounds fun....

-Shakes head- I'm treated for Bipolar Manic Depressive. But i know what I felt was real. I'm not gonna argue with you because I was the same way until 6 months ago. Just give a church a chance and you may feel it too. But you probably won't. So why am i wasting my time? Because I have nothing to do while waiting for an Interview with my college program director. Wow. I need a new hobby. Maybe underwater basket weaving. That sounds fun....

I do go to church. I do belive that there is a Supreme Being outh there. I'm still trying to get this Jesus Christ stuff straightened out though. Honestly i don't see why i'm here. In threads like this no one is ever really able to convince anybody. Everyone just fights.

Why is it that someone must post a thread asking about the existence of God/Jesus/Bush every few months? When will the madness end?

Seriously, the entire point of any God is "faith" Belief WITHOUT proof. You can't hold a debate about the existence of God because theirs no way to prove either side right. You can't prove a supernatural being doesn't exist because you only have natural laws on your side as evidence, and you can't prove he does exist for the same reason.

Like this.

He spoke to me once. I tried to ignore it. But I couldn't. Because of Him I'm now a Christian. I used to be like some of you, saying "How could he exist in a world with people like George Bush and Saddam(sp?) Hussein?" Then I realized, he places people like myself in the world to heal it from people like them. If you have never heard Him, then you are deaf. To a world of pain, suffering, and evil. And if you are incapable of hearing him, I weep for you. I know he exists, because I felt him touch a part of me that I thought was unshakeable. He is a force you can block out, but once you are touched by him, it lingers, never leaving your mind.

The problem is - the conversion process you describe is not that unusual. People of all kinds of religious persuasions have used much the same descriptives, for quite some time. Like... thousands of years.

So - here's the question - when all these conversion processes elicit the same conviction, but the 'gods' are not the same (and, indeed, often belong to a theology that would explicitly deny the very existence of one another), how can anyone justify attributing that conversion experience to a specific god?

Oh for the love of God!

I declare this thread 'troll-bait'.

It seems like a thread like this appears every two weeks...and it's simply stupid. I am going to attempt (and fail) to end this.

Other atheists like me (the ones who hate religion and are very hostile towards it): The theists won't stop. Not enough of them actually look up the 'facts' their using, not enough of them sit down and read Darwin's The Origin of Species. Not enough even read the fucking Bible all the way through, and even fewer than that actually analyze it like we do. And they always have a comeback. I can sit here and pull contradictions and arguments out of my ass all day, but they always have a response that suits their needs.

Theists: Us atheists (like me) won't stop. There is no reason to keep arguing - most of us (including myself) argue because it's fun. I highly doubt that any of the atheists here think a forum thread is going to change anyone's religious beliefs. However, I'm not saying that atheists are trolls either...because theists, I think some of you do it too...

Honestly, you won't convert us. The whole faith thing doesn't work for us.


So, everyone, just calm down, and go to your respective -pedias.

Freethinkers, lets haul ass back to FreeThoughtPedia (http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Main_Page)

Theists, return to Conservapedia. (http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page)

This is all.

-Shakes head- I'm treated for Bipolar Manic Depressive. But i know what I felt was real. I'm not gonna argue with you because I was the same way until 6 months ago. Just give a church a chance and you may feel it too. But you probably won't. So why am i wasting my time? Because I have nothing to do while waiting for an Interview with my college program director. Wow. I need a new hobby. Maybe underwater basket weaving. That sounds fun....

lol ya it does doesn't it. just FYI I've been to church, I've also seen induced mass hysteria. you'd be surprised at how close the two come in some cases. Ever seen anyone be hypnotized? yes? therefore magic must exist!

I do go to church. I do belive that there is a Supreme Being outh there. I'm still trying to get this Jesus Christ stuff straightened out though. Honestly i don't see why i'm here. In threads like this no one is ever really able to convince anybody. Everyone just fights.

Not strictly true. I'm not claiming that NS forums are the new revival, or anything - but a number of people (One either side of this debate) have changed their position, or reached a new understanding of their original one, through these debates.

I guess it depends on whether or not you're willing to actually debate. If all you want is preaching, you've come to the wrong place.

I've already stated this once. But i will try again. here goes: Evolution does not in any possible way prove that no god exist. but i do agree that this should be ended.

I've already stated this once. But i will try again. here goes: Evolution does not in any possible way prove that no god exist. but i do agree that this should be ended.

what does that have to do with anything??? the evolution bit???

Hi Drumill! Welcome to the lions' den (we don't bite, much). :D

God also supposedly wrote the ten commandments, that told people that killing was wrong.

So nobody realised murder was unacceptable before Moses (allegedly) handed the commandments down from Mt Sinai? I'm not really a Hitchens fan, but to borrow one of his arguments: do you think the Israelites crossed the desert to Mt Sinai believing that murder theft etc. were perfectly ok?

There is no way that you cant say that at some stage in history, the fear of a hell has stopped someone from committing a crime.

Curiously enough, the Ten Commandments weren't backed up by threat of post-mortem torment. Read through the first five books of the Bible and you'll find only earthly punishments.

Different peoples interporetations of God caused all of them atrocities you mentioned, not God itself. Its very possible rthat they mightnt have happened if no one believed in a God, but being realistic, religion was here for a long time and will still be here for a long time.
But id like to think it averages out that its done more good than harm. :D

Suppose that a group of people read your two posts on NS and, declaring you to be a genius, founded an intellectual movement around what they perceived to be your beliefs. Maybe while they were stayed fairly harmless you'd just ignore them, but suppose this movement began to commit atrocities and justified them by saying it was your will: wouldn't you feel obliged to tell them that they were wrong? To speak out to others and publicly disown them?

Think how much needless suffering would have been averted if God had turned up at the start of the Crusades and informed all parties that He most certainly did not want them to fight each other and they should all go home to their families? How much different would Afghanistan under the Taliban have been if God had appeared to their leaders and told them that women were created equal to men and thus should be equal before the law, and that peoples' personal and sexual conduct was a private matter between them and Him?

The fact that people can commit atrocities in God's name without a booming voice from Heaven denouncing their actions convinces me that there either is no God, or He's completely indifferent to what humans do.

The reason the crusades started was so control of the holy land would go to europe that way more money could be made off pilgrams and the spice trade.

Let's assume for the moment that economic concerns were the only things influencing the kings and nobles to lead armies on Crusades: do you think the same held true for the ordinary people who joined up to fight? Was the Childrens' Crusade motivated by a desire for trade revenues, or from a zealous belief in the divinity of their cause?

what does that have to do with anything??? the evolution bit???

that previous person said that all the theist should read on the origin of the species.

Let's assume for the moment that economic concerns were the only things influencing the kings and nobles to lead armies on Crusades: do you think the same held true for the ordinary people who joined up to fight? Was the Childrens' Crusade motivated by a desire for trade revenues, or from a zealous belief in the divinity of their cause?

I have already previosly answered this.

The fact that people can commit atrocities in God's name without a booming voice from Heaven denouncing their actions convinces me that there either is no God, or He's completely indifferent to what humans do.

Not necessarily the only options - god may care but deliberately excludes itself from human affairs due to a more important precedent, e.g. the primacy of free will as a moral end in itself

So either god does not exist, makes itself irrelevant or decides creation is irrelevant, if it is not made manifest as you point out.

I'm not going to cover all the ineffable reasons beyond human comprehension, for obvious reasons.

i think any idiot moran that thinks god dosent exist is on something that they need to take in lesser dosses

...he said, misspelling "moron".

...he said, misspelling "moron".

Da Woad already pointed that out.

This poll is missing the option: I don't care.

Da Woad already pointed that out.

...he said, pointing out that I didn't read the whole thread.

Curiously enough, the Ten Commandments weren't backed up by threat of post-mortem torment. Read through the first five books of the Bible and you'll find only earthly punishments.

Think how much needless suffering would have been averted if God had turned up at the start of the Crusades and informed all parties that He most certainly did not want them to fight each other and they should all go home to their families? How much different would Afghanistan under the Taliban have been if God had appeared to their leaders and told them that women were created equal to men and thus should be equal before the law, and that peoples' personal and sexual conduct was a private matter between them and Him?

The fact that people can commit atrocities in God's name without a booming voice from Heaven denouncing their actions convinces me that there either is no God, or He's completely indifferent to what humans do.

The christian god gave people the freedom to do what they want. It is in no way the christian god's fault that they choose to go against his way but say that it was in his name.

I went with no, because it's more complicated to argue for a God (or personlike God existance) than against one.
Hell why not start a thread "do we exist?" then we can tackle God later on or at least give it a try.

The christian god gave people the freedom to do what they want. It is in no way the christian god's fault that they choose to go against his way but say that it was in his name.

Or maybe... The entity Christians call 'Satan' was the actual creator of the scripture, and deliberately constructed a text that APPEARS to conflict with the actions of many 'Christians'... whereas, in fact, those who commit abomination, are actually those who are truest to the SPIRIT of the theology?

1. Depending on the version of belief, the theory of evolution may or may not support or deny the belief. Example- people who believe in the literal truth of the Bible obviously cannot accept evolution, while those who consider the Bible a guide to life rather than an accurate historical account should have no problem whatsoever.

2. God's existence, as stated myriad times, is unlikely to be decided by us mere mortals, at least any time soon. People who have a very relaxed take on god/the universe could easily consider that "God" is simply a being of near absolute power, and conceivably human beings could one day determine scientifically his existence. Or for that matter, loose believers could also perfectly well accept the Second Coming of Christ. We're not just counting on it.

3. As stated before, it is statistically fallacious to say that any idea of god is the only one that can be correct. Because we as humans currently cannot know all things, we have faith in things we cannot know. So, while it can easily be BELIEVED that an idea of god is the only correct one, it absolutely cannot be KNOWN. To say otherwise is to essentially compare oneself to God in knowing things that cannot be known by humans. Feelings, voices, and other such phenomenon must be discounted in the public arena because they are inherently subjective.

4. The reality we share has many complex occurrences that we usually do not immediately understand, and historically we have supplied extremely vague and dubious reasons for, and even today science cannot explain all things, or even most things. Religion is about explaining the unknowns of reality in such a way as to provide guidelines for life. Since no one knows this unknowns (obviously...), religion is inherently a subjective thing, and each person's belief is completely and utterly unique. No two catholics or jews believe all the exact same things in exactly the same way. In order to, they would have to be literally the same person. Religion being inherently individual, it is fallacious in the extreme (and on multiple levels) for anyone to say that anyone else should believe their belief.

5. The difference between "believe" and "say" in the above points- to believe something is personal and does not, in itself, affect other people. To say, however, means to attempt to force others to agree to that belief, which is just rude. Believing in something can't hurt others, only actions based on it can.

6. It could be asked- "how much is belief worth, then, if you won't act on it?" A lot more. It must be understood, however, that by "acting", I refer specifically to directly denying the validity of another's private beliefs if they differ, or forcing, physically or legally (not that there's much difference, in the end), one's belief to hold sway over others' lives. Example= it is perfectly fine to believe that men should not be allowed to marry other men. It is very rude, however, to base rejection in law of homosexual legal unions on that belief. An acceptable base for that rejection would be disagreeing that a homosexual union deserves the same rights and benefits that a heterosexual union does. However, this is much harder to live by, since it means trying to figure out why a heterosexual deserves those rights in the first place and then comparing.


In the end,

I believe it is very possible that "god" exists.

I don't find it likely that any such "god" would follow the template of any of the major world religions, purely because all of them are much too exclusive to be plausible for the whole.

I believe that belief is something that should be shared conversationally and helpfully, but absolutely NEVER used aggressively, especially in the laws that govern people of disparate beliefs. I believe that this is a much harder way to live, but worth much more for it.

Obviously though, most people would consider my above beliefs impossible to live by. Because to me, belief is intellectual. Which begs the question, how do I decide what is right or wrong, which is the same as asking how can I be trusted to live with if I don't have a commonly held (yet vague and dubious) base of basic beliefs from which I derive the legitimacy of those rights and wrongs? Well... the only answer I can really give is the Golden Rule- Do Unto Others As You Would Have Done Unto You. I see no religion it could be exclusive for, but rather intellectually I can understand the idea to be very acceptable universally among humanity. And to me, that universality grants the legitimacy. So, I try not to lie, cheat, steal, kill, or any of the other common Wrongs, because I would not want any of those things to be done to me. Of course I screw up. I'm human. I'm not perfect. I try, though. I don't know everything, thus I accept the possibility of other Truths. I severely hope that Christianity outlined by most Christian institutions is wrong, because I'm destined to an eternity of suffering purely because I don't believe that a man is the offspring of this Christian god and is also that god at the same time. (I don't have trouble with the mystery of the Trinity, I have trouble with the larger idea of exclusivity. I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea as long as it doesn't come with that string attached) Because I do not want others' religions to doom me to eternal suffering, I do not believe in or demand exclusivity of my beliefs either. That my entire belief system is geared toward doing without that is beside the point. The point is that even without a Religion (with a VERY capital R), I can be trusted to live with people because I adhere to what I consider a higher law- humanity. Or, in deference to everything in general, existence.

...he said, pointing out that I didn't read the whole thread.

lol its all good dude. this thread is getting somewhat ridiculously long (note the somewhat)

Out of curiosity, how come so much energy is spent on "Does jehovah exist or not?" and so little on "Is jehovah good or evil?"?

Out of curiosity, how come so much energy is spent on "Does jehovah exist or not?" and so little on "Is jehovah good or evil?"?

Jehovah should consider himself lucky he's even being accorded such signal honour - given how many 'god' entities are touted.

Whether he's 'good or evil' is largely irrelevent if he's fictional, yeah? So - the 'exist' question gets priority. :)

Voldemort, on the other hand - evil.

Out of curiosity, how come so much energy is spent on "Does jehovah exist or not?" and so little on "Is jehovah good or evil?"?

Probably because people don't want to think they worship something evil, so everyone claims their god is good. Then somehow goodness or evil in the world becomes the empirical evidence for non/existence, so the whole question gets turned on its head.


hang on - did you just say "Jehovah"? Oh no - I just said it too!

*commences stoning*

1. Depending on the version of belief, the theory of evolution may or may not support or deny the belief. Example- people who believe in the literal truth of the Bible obviously cannot accept evolution, while those who consider the Bible a guide to life rather than an accurate historical account should have no problem whatsoever.

2. God's existence, as stated myriad times, is unlikely to be decided by us mere mortals, at least any time soon. People who have a very relaxed take on god/the universe could easily consider that "God" is simply a being of near absolute power, and conceivably human beings could one day determine scientifically his existence. Or for that matter, loose believers could also perfectly well accept the Second Coming of Christ. We're not just counting on it.

3. As stated before, it is statistically fallacious to say that any idea of god is the only one that can be correct. Because we as humans currently cannot know all things, we have faith in things we cannot know. So, while it can easily be BELIEVED that an idea of god is the only correct one, it absolutely cannot be KNOWN. To say otherwise is to essentially compare oneself to God in knowing things that cannot be known by humans. Feelings, voices, and other such phenomenon must be discounted in the public arena because they are inherently subjective.

4. The reality we share has many complex occurrences that we usually do not immediately understand, and historically we have supplied extremely vague and dubious reasons for, and even today science cannot explain all things, or even most things. Religion is about explaining the unknowns of reality in such a way as to provide guidelines for life. Since no one knows this unknowns (obviously...), religion is inherently a subjective thing, and each person's belief is completely and utterly unique. No two catholics or jews believe all the exact same things in exactly the same way. In order to, they would have to be literally the same person. Religion being inherently individual, it is fallacious in the extreme (and on multiple levels) for anyone to say that anyone else should believe their belief.

5. The difference between "believe" and "say" in the above points- to believe something is personal and does not, in itself, affect other people. To say, however, means to attempt to force others to agree to that belief, which is just rude. Believing in something can't hurt others, only actions based on it can.

6. It could be asked- "how much is belief worth, then, if you won't act on it?" A lot more. It must be understood, however, that by "acting", I refer specifically to directly denying the validity of another's private beliefs if they differ, or forcing, physically or legally (not that there's much difference, in the end), one's belief to hold sway over others' lives. Example= it is perfectly fine to believe that men should not be allowed to marry other men. It is very rude, however, to base rejection in law of homosexual legal unions on that belief. An acceptable base for that rejection would be disagreeing that a homosexual union deserves the same rights and benefits that a heterosexual union does. However, this is much harder to live by, since it means trying to figure out why a heterosexual deserves those rights in the first place and then comparing.


In the end,

I believe it is very possible that "god" exists.

I don't find it likely that any such "god" would follow the template of any of the major world religions, purely because all of them are much too exclusive to be plausible for the whole.

I believe that belief is something that should be shared conversationally and helpfully, but absolutely NEVER used aggressively, especially in the laws that govern people of disparate beliefs. I believe that this is a much harder way to live, but worth much more for it.

Obviously though, most people would consider my above beliefs impossible to live by. Because to me, belief is intellectual. Which begs the question, how do I decide what is right or wrong, which is the same as asking how can I be trusted to live with if I don't have a commonly held (yet vague and dubious) base of basic beliefs from which I derive the legitimacy of those rights and wrongs? Well... the only answer I can really give is the Golden Rule- Do Unto Others As You Would Have Done Unto You. I see no religion it could be exclusive for, but rather intellectually I can understand the idea to be very acceptable universally among humanity. And to me, that universality grants the legitimacy. So, I try not to lie, cheat, steal, kill, or any of the other common Wrongs, because I would not want any of those things to be done to me. Of course I screw up. I'm human. I'm not perfect. I try, though. I don't know everything, thus I accept the possibility of other Truths. I severely hope that Christianity outlined by most Christian institutions is wrong, because I'm destined to an eternity of suffering purely because I don't believe that a man is the offspring of this Christian god and is also that god at the same time. (I don't have trouble with the mystery of the Trinity, I have trouble with the larger idea of exclusivity. I'm perfectly willing to accept the idea as long as it doesn't come with that string attached) Because I do not want others' religions to doom me to eternal suffering, I do not believe in or demand exclusivity of my beliefs either. That my entire belief system is geared toward doing without that is beside the point. The point is that even without a Religion (with a VERY capital R), I can be trusted to live with people because I adhere to what I consider a higher law- humanity. Or, in deference to everything in general, existence.

see I would like more of the "religious" people in the world to believe in that

lol its all good dude. this thread is getting somewhat ridiculously long (note the somewhat)

...he said, breaking my "he said" joke trend.

...or did he?

nope but he said that he did

ppl dont want to admit theres a God bc if they believe he exists they mightend up feeling accountable to him