NationStates Jolt Archive

I think of the WBC as a train wreck.

I've been doing a little research on this and I guess, on some level, I'm digging for something that makes it not a total loss... And I'm finding nothing. I don't mean to go on a bash-rant here but this is really bugging me and I was kinda wondering... Is there anyone out there who actually would defend this?

Is there anyone out there who actually would defend this?
Apart from another member of Westboro or a troll, I doubt it.

They're dickheads, well done, you've just created a topic that will result in page upon page of people saying "they're pricks because they're pricks", or "they're pricks and this reflects on Christianity", which is just going to lead to another one of those utterly pish religious debates which get tiresome after the first 10 posts go through every single argument there is.

GZ.

I sincerely doubt it. They're the most hateful, vile, venom-spewing self-proclaimed Christians I have ever had the displeasure of having heard about.

I'll try.

Being a member of the WBC makes the members happy and as far as I can tell this is the point of life, finding happiness where you can

My thinking is this: No matter how bizarre or zealous someone is, I want to believe that on some level, somewhere in there is a sincere and genuine person who only wants what's best... Something that maybe could be used to reach some common ground in order to, at the very least, build bridges, and maybe that can lead to better communication and maybe this vitriol and nastiness can start to recede as it naturally does when communication is maintained.

But... I just can't seem to find it in the WBC and it bothers the hell out of me.

Fuck the Westboro Baptist Church, you can be not for the homosexual lifestyle, and not need be a total nutbag,they should be beaten with sticks about the head and shoulders.

For protesting against US troops for doing their duty,the Westboro Baptist Church needs the mega bitchslap,while being disembowled..

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

I'll try.

Being a member of the WBC makes the members happy and as far as I can tell this is the point of life, finding happiness where you can

But does it really? I find it impossible to believe that any person who professes to hate the entire world so virulently that they claim that everyone else is hated by God and going to hell could POSSIBLY be happy.

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

If you need a co-pilot or bombardier, you give me a call, ok?

Fuck the Westboro Baptist Church, you can be not for the homosexual lifestyle, and not need be a total nutbag,they should be beaten with sticks about the head and shoulders.

For protesting against US troops for doing their duty,the Westboro Baptist Church needs the mega bitchslap,while being disembowled..

"Be as homophobic as you want, but don't bother the troops"?

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

Are you offering? *Opens up jacket to reveal a B-52 bomber*:wink:

But does it really? I find it impossible to believe that any person who professes to hate the entire world so virulently that they claim that everyone else is hated by God and going to hell could POSSIBLY be happy.

I concur.

Christianity, prayer and Scripture study are supposed to be uplifting, bringing joy and happiness into life and yet I can't imagine how sitting around spewing that kind of hate can possibly be an uplifting experience...

...or maybe I'm afraid that, to them, it IS uplifting and they're just... that... far... gone...

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

The best part is they'll probably think God sent it from heaven as a sign :)

Fuck the Westboro Baptist Church, you can be not for the homosexual lifestyle, and not need be a total nutbag,they should be beaten with sticks about the head and shoulders.

For protesting against US troops for doing their duty,the Westboro Baptist Church needs the mega bitchslap,while being disembowled..

Violence begets violence.

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

I am a FAA certified pilot if you need any help. *nod*

But does it really? I find it impossible to believe that any person who professes to hate the entire world so virulently that they claim that everyone else is hated by God and going to hell could POSSIBLY be happy.

Would they keep doing it if it didn't? The people I see on the videos of the protests seems to be really into what they're doing.

Before I get a link to a site about people continuing in self destructive behaviour even after they fully understand it's bad for them and doesn't make them happy, I would struggle to accept that that would explain all 60 of them, especially the ring leaders.

I am a FAA certified pilot if you need any help. *nod*

I'm CAA certified, I don't think my licence covers 8 engined jet powered bombers though.

If you need a co-pilot or bombardier, you give me a call, ok?

Are you offering? *Opens up jacket to reveal a B-52 bomber*:wink:

The best part is they'll probably think God sent it from heaven as a sign :)

I am a FAA certified pilot if you need any help. *nod*

You wouldn't believe the amount of red tape involved in getting permission to drop dung from an aircraft over a residential area. I suppose it's just another incentive to run for President. You think I could sell it as 'deregulating the FAA'?

See, the thing is, wanting to slap them around or yell at them or whatever isn't going to help because it plays right into their mentality. If you were to bitch slap Fred Phelps it would be nothing more to him than proof of America's corruption and that you were somehow a tool of Satan sent to attack him.

Same goes with wars of words. They already expect people to try to talk them out of it using reason, using Biblical text, using common sense... and it won't work because that's something else they'd only interpret as Satan trying to trick them.

Understand this, folks... This is brainwashing and you can't fix it by simple retribution. I don't know what the solution is and that's why I'm grasping...

I'm CAA certified, I don't think my licence covers 8 engined jet powered bombers though.

Eh all airplanes are the same, they all work on the same basic principals of lift, drag, gravity, and thrust.

I am a FAA certified pilot if you need any help. *nod*

I'm CAA certified, I don't think my licence covers 8 engined jet powered bombers though.

I'm not certified in anything with wings but I can pwn any comers in Falcon 4.0 ;)

You wouldn't believe the amount of red tape involved in getting permission to drop dung from an aircraft over a residential area. I suppose it's just another incentive to run for President. You think I could sell it as 'deregulating the FAA'?

Since when have you asked for permission LG?:confused::tongue:

Would they keep doing it if it didn't? The people I see on the videos of the protests seems to be really into what they're doing.

Before I get a link to a site about people continuing in self destructive behaviour even after they fully understand it's bad for them and doesn't make them happy, I would struggle to accept that that would explain all 60 of them, especially the ring leaders.

Yes, they would.
They really can't be happy. How can anyone who hates the whole world as "fag enablers" and worthy of death be happy about anything?
That's not happiness behind that.... that's fear and rage and complete lack of self-esteem, just like with ANY bully.

Eh all airplanes are the same, they all work on the same basic principals of lift, drag, gravity, and thrust.

So does sex. :)

Since when have you asked for permission LG?:confused::tongue:

September 11th, 2001. :(

What really blows my mind is they aim their hate at EVERYBODY. Mostly it's about homosexuals but they don't stop there. They go after practically anybody. That strikes me as being some sort of pathology.

So does sex. :)

Touche.

"they're pricks and this reflects on Christianity"
Well, it does. There are Christian leaders who are far more extreme than Phelps, just with better sense about how to present themselves, like Bishop Akinola of Nigeria, who is currently taking over a sizable fraction of the American Episcopal Church.

What really blows my mind is they aim their hate at EVERYBODY. Mostly it's about homosexuals but they don't stop there. They go after practically anybody. That strikes me as being some sort of pathology.

What I find more amazing is that they actually find people who are willing to reproduce with them! :eek:

September 11th, 2001. :(
Oh really? What about yesterday, when I found my dog dressed as a clown and my lawn covered in half-thawed pies, spelling out from the sky "Love: LG" eh? Did you ask permission THEN?:D

Oh really? What about yesterday, when I found my dog dressed as a clown and my lawn covered in half-thawed pies, spelling out from the sky "Love: LG" eh? Did you ask permission THEN?:D

That could have been anybody with those initials.

<.<

>.>

What I find more amazing is that they actually find people who are willing to reproduce with them! :eek:

Probably close relatives

Probably close relatives

*plays Deliverance theme song on banjo*

I sincerely doubt it. They're the most hateful, vile, venom-spewing self-proclaimed Christians I have ever had the displeasure of having heard about.

I'll see your WBC, and raise you a KKK.

The Klan claim to be Christians, right?

Yes, they would.
They really can't be happy. How can anyone who hates the whole world as "fag enablers" and worthy of death be happy about anything?
That's not happiness behind that.... that's fear and rage and complete lack of self-esteem, just like with ANY bully.

A bully usually comes from a position of power though, be it size, popularity or rank.

WBA is universally hated and has no power so I would place them more as victims who can only feel any happiness through projecting their own suffering onto someone else, i. e. "Someone has it worst then me".

That could have been anybody with those initials.

<.<

>.>

Oh, and my dog wants his fur back.

You wouldn't believe the amount of red tape involved in getting permission to drop dung from an aircraft over a residential area. I suppose it's just another incentive to run for President. You think I could sell it as 'deregulating the FAA'?

Sell it with "specifically prohibiting those peeping-Tom style security devices," and you'd win.

As for the plane: I can actually put you in touch with a former B-52 bombardier that flew in 'Nam, and my own experiences as a navigator are available for service.

Hey, guys, no dropping dung on Topeka. I know nice people there.

Just walk up to the WBC idiots and dump it over their heads directly. *nod*

What I find more amazing is that they actually find people who are willing to reproduce with them! :eek:

They're all family members. It's all one family and those who've married in.

What I find more amazing is that they actually find people who are willing to reproduce with them! :eek:

Yeah I think it's just inbreeding between two families now.

I'll see your WBC, and raise you a KKK.

The Klan claim to be Christians, right?

Operative word: Claim.
And while the KKK are vile, they don't claim to hate the whole world. Just the whole non-white world.

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

Get an ultralight and some hand grenades. Much cheaper and just as destructive.

A bully usually comes from a position of power though, be it size, popularity or rank.

WBA is universally hated and has no power so I would place them more as victims who can only feel any happiness through projecting their own suffering onto someone else, i. e. "Someone has it worst then me".

Bullies are bullies BECAUSE they feel weak.
They were often abused themselves, and so they only power they feel is when they abuse someone weaker than they.

Oh, and my dog wants his fur back.

It'll grow back eventually.


...


Probably.

Violence begets violence.

The horrifying members of the vile Westbore Baptist Church don't actually physically attack those who they consider their and therefore God's enemy, but their amoral actions have something violent over them. They're like a torn in holy flesh, and the wound has become heavily infected. The maggots crawling in the gore are the church members, celebrating their bigoted and hateful spirituality.

Bastards, every single one of them.

Bullies are bullies BECAUSE they feel weak.
They were often abused themselves, and so they only power they feel is when they abuse someone weaker than they.

Yet the groups they go after are stronger than them?

They are targeting the US military, it doesnt get much stronger than that.

I read an interesting article (http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/phelps.htm) that theorized that Mr. Phelps himself is a closeted homosexual and this is how he has chosen to deal with it.

I don't know how reliable it is, but... It might explain the source of a lot of this. I don't agree with the theological perspective of the author but his insights strike me as valid as they pertain to Phelps.

You may have misunderstood -- to the poster who advocated hurting the WBC members, I said violence would only lead to more violence. I was NOT approving of what he said by saying, "Yeah, they stir this up, they deserve it."

Yet the groups they go after are stronger than them?

They are targeting the US military, it doesnt get much stronger than that.

They aren't. They're going after grieving families -- individuals, who are already emotionally overwhelmed. Just as they go after the families of dead homosexuals at their funerals.

The horrifying members of the vile Westbore Baptist Church don't actually physically attack those who they consider their and therefore God's enemy, but their amoral actions have something violent over them. They're like a torn in holy flesh, and the wound has become heavily infected. The maggots crawling in the gore are the church members, celebrating their bigoted and hateful spirituality.

Bastards, every single one of them.

...whoa...

Operative word: Claim.
And while the KKK are vile, they don't claim to hate the whole world. Just the whole non-white world.

For sure, they only claim to be Christians - same as the WBC.

I see your point, but I rate the Klan as worse. The WBC only say nasty, spiteful things. Their refusal to interact with the 'fag enablers' makes them a fairly harmless nuisance. On the other hand, the Klan have been known to resort to violence. They've also tried to get into politics.

It'll grow back eventually.


...


Probably.
You see what you've done???
http://www.losingtouch.co.uk/gallery/d/18017-4/Shaved_Dog.jpg
And that's AFTER I got the clown makeup off!

Fred Phelps called me.

He said I'm sexy and manly, and that he'll stop protesting funerals and being an ass if I go to Kansas and be the active partner in a homosexual relationship with him.

He also told me to stop by a store and buy leather straps, whipped cream, condoms, grease and a wrench.

He wants to have sex with me.

I'm not gay.

I'm scared.

They are nutbags. "Bigot" doesn't really describe them, they're more like religious psychopaths.

Yeah, there are plenty of people who think gay people are going to hell. I disagree with them, but it's their right to think that.

But the whole protesting people's (gay people and soldiers) funerals? That's seriously fucked up.

Fred Phelps called me...
So the way to stop a man condemning homosexuals as sinful is to ridicule him for being gay?

Hypocrite, much?

How did he get your number? Someone wrote it on the wall of a bathroom stall?

So the way to stop a man condemning homosexuals as sinful is to ridicule him for being gay?

Hypocrite, much?

Actually it was more of a humorous attempt to point out that he likely IS gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't swing his way, and I don't want to have sex with Fred Phelps, no matter how many times he asks.

How did he get your number? Someone wrote it on the wall of a bathroom stall?

I don't know. I think he looked it up and found me sexy...

How did he get your number? Someone wrote it on the wall of a bathroom stall?

My bad...

For sure, they only claim to be Christians - same as the WBC.

I see your point, but I rate the Klan as worse. The WBC only say nasty, spiteful things. Their refusal to interact with the 'fag enablers' makes them a fairly harmless nuisance. On the other hand, the Klan have been known to resort to violence. They've also tried to get into politics.

You know, while they may not be representative of all Christians, I strongly disagree whenever people excuse religious extremists in general as not being "true" members of their religion. I mean, they accept the same general cosmology, deities, prophets, etc. as do the more moderate members of their religion. It seems to me to be a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy to say that they aren't true believers just because they reflect poorly on their religion.

You know, while they may not be representative of all Christians, I strongly disagree whenever people excuse religious extremists in general as not being "true" members of their religion. I mean, they accept the same general cosmology, deities, prophets, etc. as do the more moderate members of their religion. It seems to me to be a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy to say that they aren't true believers just because they reflect poorly on their religion.

That's an interesting point.

It may well be fallacy to say they aren't 'true' Christians, but I think it's pretty safe to say they fall tragically short of setting a good example of what being a Christian is all about.

My bad...

It's okay - there was no way for you to know that that nightclub doubled as a bordello where Phelps looked for horses to have intercourse with.

It's okay - there was no way for you to know that that nightclub soubled as a bordello where Phelps looked for horses to have intercourse with.

Yeah I know but it's still no excuse. I just need to stop eating the worm.

You could also proclaim the WBC to be heretics and start up an inquisition in order to cleanse Christianity. However, the main problem with inquisitions is that once you get the whole thing going, you just don't want to stop... also they don't always work as well as hoped. Ask the Vatican if you would like to know more.

Yeah I know but it's still no excuse. I just need to stop eating the worm.

At any rate, I want to stop Fred Phelps but I don't want to have sex with him to make him stop, as he proposed.

Suggestions?

At any rate, I want to stop Fred Phelps but I don't want to have sex with him to make him stop, as he proposed.

Suggestions?

Build an anatomically correct andriod of yourself and invent AI.

Actually it was more of a humorous attempt to point out that he likely IS gay.
So why have you continued, in this thread and others, at attempting to ridicule Phelps for his supposed sexuality?

You are suggesting, intentionally or no, that to be gay would be a bad thing; something to be wished on enemies.

I'll try.

Being a member of the WBC makes the members happy and as far as I can tell this is the point of life, finding happiness where you can

Wrong! WBC is a cult, the happiness is fake, in cults one's TRUE feelings are FULLY suppressed, abuse is common and to prevent mutiny, to attract members and to make sure the cult leaders' toy soldiers stay in line they tell them they're happy and being the brainwashed drones they are they believe it. Being WBC is not a blissful situation. Most of them I hear didn't choose to join but were forced to because they were part of the Phelps family. Being forced to join a sick cult that sucks out your independent thought and sanity whilst replacing it with a false blissful lie is not a happy situation. Some anti-cult organization should deprogram the lot of them and give them psychiatric care. Only then will happiness once again become a possibility for these people.

Build an anatomically correct andriod of yourself and invent AI.

And /win

You know, while they may not be representative of all Christians, I strongly disagree whenever people excuse religious extremists in general as not being "true" members of their religion. I mean, they accept the same general cosmology, deities, prophets, etc. as do the more moderate members of their religion. It seems to me to be a classic "No True Scotsman" fallacy to say that they aren't true believers just because they reflect poorly on their religion.

I disagree - the god they worship is nothing like the Christian god.
And I'm not saying they aren't true believers just because they reflect badly on Christianity, I'm saying that they aren't Christians. At all. I don't really think I have to scour the Bible in order to find evidence to back that claim up.

Of course, one could stretch this argument to cover all sorts of 'Christian' groups.

So why have you continued, in this thread and others, at attempting to ridicule Phelps for his supposed sexuality?

You are suggesting, intentionally or no, that to be gay would be a bad thing; something to be wished on enemies.

Nope, I'm suggesting that, in HIS case, being gay would be a hypocritical thing. And I'm asking for advice on the fact that Fred Phelps wants me to have sex with him.

Fred Phelps called me.

He said I'm sexy and manly, and that he'll stop protesting funerals and being an ass if I go to Kansas and be the active partner in a homosexual relationship with him.

He also told me to stop by a store and buy leather straps, whipped cream, condoms, grease and a wrench.

He wants to have sex with me.

I'm not gay.

I'm scared.

But he'll stop protesting if you do.

Take one for the team. ;)

The closest I can come is defending their right to free speech. But I would also like to point out that the First Amendment was never meant to act as a shield against incoming fists.

What I mean by that is it prevents the government from abridging your rights to say what you want when you want. It is not meant to absolve you of the consequences of saying it. Which is why I'm still trying to figure out where I can get a B-52 bomber, ten thousand pounds of fresh manure and a flight plan directly over their compound in Kansas. *nod*

Drop gay porn pamphlets. *nod*

That's an interesting point.

It may well be fallacy to say they aren't 'true' Christians, but I think it's pretty safe to say they fall tragically short of setting a good example of what being a Christian is all about.

What being a Christian is all about-- according to your denomination of Christianity. To be honest, having read most of the Bible, I can understand many extremists' interpretations of it. If you accept the Bible as being the literal word of God, then I can see where much Christian bigotry comes from.

Now, I much prefer those Christians who don't interpret the Bible that way. For one, they make much better friends, seeing as they're less likely to judge me for being a nonbeliever or think that coming to the wrong conclusion will be grounds for eternal damnation. (I actually went to "church" with one of them once-- their church being a group of maybe a dozen people who met regularly in a nice outdoor public area, many of them with beliefs just barely recognizable as Christian. It was actually fairly enjoyable.)

But I digress... So, I dunno. Maybe it's my outsider's perspective-- but I see WBC members and such to be just as Christian as any other Christians-- I just don't like them very much.

WBC simplified

:sniper::hail::hail::soap:

I disagree - the god they worship is nothing like the Christian god.
And I'm not saying they aren't true believers just because they reflect badly on Christianity, I'm saying that they aren't Christians. At all. I don't really think I have to scour the Bible in order to find evidence to back that claim up.

Oh, I dunno. If you posit, for example, that God is perfect and unchanging, all you need to do is point to OT God to justify intolerance, and even genocide and slavery.


Of course, one could stretch this argument to cover all sorts of 'Christian' groups.

I wonder-- would you say that those Christians who permit, say, divorce to be Not True Christians(tm)?
Or those who permit women to speak during Church?

After all-- the Bible (the NT, at that, unless I misremember) forbids both of those.

But he'll stop protesting if you do.

Take one for the team. ;)

This is not taking one, this is giving a few.

Oh, I dunno. If you posit, for example, that God is perfect and unchanging, all you need to do is point to OT God to justify intolerance, and even genocide and slavery.

Hmm... good point. Thought I don't see where it urges you to picket people's funerals, screaming nonsense at their grieving relatives.


I wonder-- would you say that those Christians who permit, say, divorce to be Not True Christians(tm)?
Or those who permit women to speak during Church?


Only if they started using their religious views as an excuse to take to the streets, screeching hateful nonsense at people.

I'll try.

Being a member of the WBC makes the members happy and as far as I can tell this is the point of life, finding happiness where you can

They seem pretty angry to me..

Hmm... good point. Thought I don't see where it urges you to picket people's funerals, screaming nonsense at their grieving relatives.

Well, often, people look at Jesus overturning tables in the temple, plus fairly intolerant (and, in several cases, downright evil, if you ask me) actions commanded by God in the OT, which, recall, if you view god as unchanging (which, arguably, is necessary for perfection-- otherwise, God, either before the change or after it would be imperfect, depending on whether the change is a good one or bad.), is still a valid handbook for how to act.


Only if they started using their religious views as an excuse to take to the streets, screeching hateful nonsense at people.

Ah, but the point remains-- they still believe something that is just as unbiblical (or arguably more so, depending on if you view God as necessarily unchanging) as Phelps. They don't take to the streets and such because the they differ from the Bible in a way that makes them more tolerant. But why should they still be True Christians and Phelps not? Again, their belief is just as unbiblical as is his, it's just that their actions are much nicer.
Because of this, it seems to me that declaring the WBC and KKK to be "not True Christians" is merely the natural desire to disassociate with people you find distasteful. There's a natural bias, I think, to view one's own "group" as being generally more benevolent/moral/whatever than other "groups," especially when it comes to religion, which tends to teach that religion in general-- and the religion in question in particular-- is the best (or only) source of morality.
But to an outside observer, I still can't see what makes Phelps less Christian than any Church that permits divorces, or permits women to speak in the church, or what have you.

But he'll stop protesting if you do.

Take one for the team. ;)

That's what I'm sayin'.

What being a Christian is all about-- according to your denomination of Christianity. To be honest, having read most of the Bible, I can understand many extremists' interpretations of it. If you accept the Bible as being the literal word of God, then I can see where much Christian bigotry comes from.

Now, I much prefer those Christians who don't interpret the Bible that way. For one, they make much better friends, seeing as they're less likely to judge me for being a nonbeliever or think that coming to the wrong conclusion will be grounds for eternal damnation. (I actually went to "church" with one of them once-- their church being a group of maybe a dozen people who met regularly in a nice outdoor public area, many of them with beliefs just barely recognizable as Christian. It was actually fairly enjoyable.)

But I digress... So, I dunno. Maybe it's my outsider's perspective-- but I see WBC members and such to be just as Christian as any other Christians-- I just don't like them very much.

I dunno I realize a lot of different denominations have different standards for what Christianity is, but I think all of them would agree that on some level being a Christian means emulating, to the best of our ability, the behavior of Jesus Christ, and conducting ourselves in the way He would. (WWJD).

And reading the Bible reveals a Jesus who never behaved the way this bunch do. Jesus also said "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" (Matthew 7:16)

As an outsider, I cannot be interested in any definitional squabble over "true" Christians. To me, the word is an indication of chosen affiliation, like "Cubs fan": if you say you are a Cubs fan, by definition, you are expressing enthusiasm for the Cubs, so you ARE a Cubs fan. Anyone to whom Jesus Christ is central to their ideology is a "Christian", however unlikely it may be that their particular concept of Jesus Christ has much resemblance to the actual preacher from 1st-century Nazareth.

This is not taking one, this is giving a few.

Well, he might be a switch-hitter if you catch my drift. :p

*That word is a PC word made up by the thought Police,no one " fears" the lifestyle.

-phobia
combining form
extreme or irrational fear or dislike of a specified thing or group

Yes. thats the jist of it, a person has the right to be a homophobe*


* That word is a PC word made up by the thought Police,no one " fears" the lifestyle, I am a old fashion type of guy, I like women, the whole man & Women thing,thats how I roll.

Knows the meaning,of " phobia " in the dictionary,the PC crew use the word homophobe as a attack on persons not buying into the diveristy nonsence, I however dislike the tatics of the WBC,you can get your point across and not be unpleasent.

Knows the meaning,of " phobia " in the dictionary,the PC crew use the word homophobe as a attack on persons not buying into the diveristy nonsence, I however dislike the tatics of the WBC,you can get your point across and not be unpleasent.

So, in fact, someone labelled as a homophobe does not have an irrational dislike of homosexual people?

Well, he might be a switch-hitter if you catch my drift. :p

*In Jerry Seinfeld's "but I don't wanna be a" voice*

But I don't wanna be a switch-catcher!

Well, often, people look at Jesus overturning tables in the temple, plus fairly intolerant (and, in several cases, downright evil, if you ask me) actions commanded by God in the OT, which, recall, if you view god as unchanging (which, arguably, is necessary for perfection-- otherwise, God, either before the change or after it would be imperfect, depending on whether the change is a good one or bad.), is still a valid handbook for how to act.

To a Christian, the actions of God are, by definition, good. Which is how people try to rationalise those troublesome sections of the OT. But Phelps is not God, so he cannot claim that exemption. And I don't believe that his actions are actually motivated by an honest attempt to interpret the Bible.


Ah, but the point remains-- they still believe something that is just as unbiblical (or arguably more so, depending on if you view God as necessarily unchanging) as Phelps.

Surely their viewpoint has a basis in the Bible. I'm not convinced that Phelp's does.


They don't take to the streets and such because the they differ from the Bible in a way that makes them more tolerant. But why should they still be True Christians and Phelps not?

I didn't say they were true Christians.


Because of this, it seems to me that declaring the WBC and KKK to be "not True Christians" is merely the natural desire to disassociate with people you find distasteful. There's a natural bias, I think, to view one's own "group" as being generally more benevolent/moral/whatever than other "groups," especially when it comes to religion, which tends to teach that religion in general-- and the religion in question in particular-- is the best (or only) source of morality.

Since I am not a Christian, I was not trying to disassociate myself from them.


But to an outside observer, I still can't see what makes Phelps less Christian than any Church that permits divorces, or permits women to speak in the church, or what have you.

Well... if you really push me to it, I'm not convinced that any of the current versions of Christian are 'real' Christians. I am, however, convinced that WBC are not. And are being either consciously or unconsciously dishonest when they claim to be.

They seem pretty angry to me..

People get angry on this board all the time. They keep coming back which must imply some enjoyment.

Yes. thats the jist of it, a person has the right to be a homophobe*


* That word is a PC word made up by the thought Police,no one " fears" the lifestyle, I am a old fashion type of guy, I like women, the whole man & Women thing,thats how I roll.

Phobia can also mean hatred, ya know...

I think of the WBC as a train wreck.

I've been doing a little research on this and I guess, on some level, I'm digging for something that makes it not a total loss...

Fred Phelps, the pastor, won several awards from the NAACP in the 1980s for his civil rights work. I don't know the details.

I think of the WBC as a train wreck.

I've been doing a little research on this and I guess, on some level, I'm digging for something that makes it not a total loss... And I'm finding nothing. I don't mean to go on a bash-rant here but this is really bugging me and I was kinda wondering... Is there anyone out there who actually would defend this?

defend what? the WBC? no.

You trying to find some redeeming value in the WBC? yeah, I'll defend that. Everyone deserves a chance at redemption... whether or not they have any or take that chance... well...

Knows the meaning,of " phobia " in the dictionary,the PC crew use the word homophobe as a attack on persons not buying into the diveristy nonsence, I however dislike the tatics of the WBC,you can get your point across and not be unpleasent.

Of course, the meaning of the word "phobia" and the root "-phobia" are not identical.


Main Entry:
-phobia
Function:
noun combining form
Etymology:
New Latin, from Late Latin, from Greek, from -phobos fearing, from phobos fear, flight, from phebesthai to flee; akin to Lithuanian bėgti to flee, Old Church Slavic běžati

1 : exaggerated fear of <acrophobia> 2 : intolerance or aversion for <photophobia>

People get angry on this board all the time. They keep coming back which must imply some enjoyment.

Yeah, we get angry, they are angry.

You could also proclaim the WBC to be heretics and start up an inquisition in order to cleanse Christianity. However, the main problem with inquisitions is that once you get the whole thing going, you just don't want to stop... also they don't always work as well as hoped. Ask the Vatican if you would like to know more.

That's why they're not being "cleansed" -- only ridiculed.

Understand this, folks... This is brainwashing and you can't fix it by simple retribution. I don't know what the solution is and that's why I'm grasping...

Isolate each member, provide scenarios that are at odds with their beliefs, force them to question their thought process, do not allow any routine habits to form or run.

The mind can be incredibly easy to crack, given the right conditions.

Isolate each member, provide scenarios that are at odds with their beliefs, force them to question their thought process, do not allow any routine habits to form or run.

The mind can be incredibly easy to crack, given the right conditions.

So a perfectly logical mind might escape brainwashing?

So a perfectly logical mind might escape brainwashing?

There's no such thing as an unbreakable mind. But you can't use the same techniques to break different types of minds. Dogmatic minds are a little harder to break than logical ones actually, since logical minds usually attempt to come to a conclusion to matters rather than relying on rigid thought patterns as universal answers.

There's no such thing as an unbreakable mind. But you can't use the same techniques to break different types of minds. Dogmatic minds are a little harder to break than logical ones actually, since logical minds usually attempt to come to a conclusion to matters rather than relying on rigid thought patterns as universal answers.

But a perfectly logical mind might see it as a difference between premises.

But a perfectly logical mind might see it as a difference between premises.

Perfectly logical minds rely on preset conditions and rulesets as the basis of their reasoning. Water is wet, fire is hot, that sort of thing. The trick is to blur the line, as well as reduce their cognitive ability. Break down the foundations of their thought structure, insert your intended message/idea/etc and let them rebuild their minds over it. It makes for a much more resilient controlled mind.

As an outsider, I cannot be interested in any definitional squabble over "true" Christians. To me, the word is an indication of chosen affiliation, like "Cubs fan": if you say you are a Cubs fan, by definition, you are expressing enthusiasm for the Cubs, so you ARE a Cubs fan. Anyone to whom Jesus Christ is central to their ideology is a "Christian", however unlikely it may be that their particular concept of Jesus Christ has much resemblance to the actual preacher from 1st-century Nazareth.

Yeah, but no matter what I claim, I'm never going to be a seven foot tall black man.

Fred Phelps, the pastor, won several awards from the NAACP in the 1980s for his civil rights work. I don't know the details.

Well, ok, proof that no one is all bad.
The rest of his history kind of overshadows that, though.

Yeah, but no matter what I claim, I'm never going to be a seven foot tall black man.

I'm sure there's a Broadway make-up artist that disagrees with you out there somewhere.

They are strict Calvinist. Being from an Arminian background, I must condemn them to hell, but only on their free will.

:)

/sarcasm

That's why they're not being "cleansed" -- only ridiculed.

We call it ridicule, the self-proclaimed martyrs of the WBC probably consider it to be persecution.

I think of the WBC as a train wreck.

I've been doing a little research on this and I guess, on some level, I'm digging for something that makes it not a total loss... And I'm finding nothing. I don't mean to go on a bash-rant here but this is really bugging me and I was kinda wondering... Is there anyone out there who actually would defend this?

I'm not defending their actions in any way. Or their beliefs. Its a pile of crap. And from the little I've seen of them, they're a minor cult who have gotten a lot of media attention. They are in no way shape or form christians. The spirit of God is not on them...and you can tell that by their fruit.

But I have to say I admire their conviction a little. Its not everyday that you come across people who can totally turn their back on society's views and cop the abuse and the stigma from that. I mean, yeah, they're calling every
2nd person a faggot or a faggotlover...and apparently we're all going to rot in hell. But they cop an equal amount of abuse from us, for expressing their opinion.
But I can't defend them.

Isolate each member, provide scenarios that are at odds with their beliefs, force them to question their thought process, do not allow any routine habits to form or run.

The mind can be incredibly easy to crack, given the right conditions.

But here's the thing: Short of physically kidnapping them from the compound, how does one do this?

I'm not defending their actions in any way. Or their beliefs. Its a pile of crap. And from the little I've seen of them, they're a minor cult who have gotten a lot of media attention. They are in no way shape or form christians. The spirit of God is not on them...and you can tell that by their fruit.

But I have to say I admire their conviction a little. Its not everyday that you come across people who can totally turn their back on society's views and cop the abuse and the stigma from that. I mean, yeah, they're calling every
2nd person a faggot or a faggotlover...and apparently we're all going to rot in hell. But they cop an equal amount of abuse from us, for expressing their opinion.
But I can't defend them.

I used to admire their convictions too... But not so much anymore... It's because I feel they've been brainwashed, and brainwashing is a pretty powerful counter to external pressure when 90% of that external pressure plays right into the brainwashing ("The rest of the world is of Satan and wants to bring us down")

I used to admire their convictions too... But not so much anymore... It's because I feel they've been brainwashed, and brainwashing is a pretty powerful counter to external pressure when 90% of that external pressure plays right into the brainwashing ("The rest of the world is of Satan and wants to bring us down")

Yeah, I think I mentioned that I think they're a cult. I've only seen one short documentary on them. Are they isolated from everyone when they're not picketing?
But in all fairness, I am not brainwashed. But as a believer, I do think there is an awful amount of evil in the world...spiritually driven evil....and its sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. Believers and non-believers alike. But believers definitely have a bigger target. I don't think you have to even leave your house to see the demonic presence in our world.

Yeah, I think I mentioned that I think they're a cult. I've only seen one short documentary on them. Are they isolated from everyone when they're not picketing?
But in all fairness, I am not brainwashed. But as a believer, I do think there is an awful amount of evil in the world...spiritually driven evil....and its sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. Believers and non-believers alike. But believers definitely have a bigger target. I don't think you have to even leave your house to see the demonic presence in our world.

I agree completely.

In fact, just last night I had the opportunity to accompany the Missionaries as they visited the home of a very spiritual lady. The conversation turned to the ways in which evil tries to destroy good and one shouldn't be surprised when persecution comes knocking. If anything, it's a sign that you're on the right path...

But I guess what separates people like you and me from people like them is that we don't return hate (at least, we aren't supposed to!) for hate. We bear it because we must, but we don't let it change who we are.

I'm not sure how isolated they are. I saw a clip from an episode of Tyra Banks' talk show where a couple of Phelps' granddaughters mentioned they were attending college and their mom was an attorney, so they do get out there...

Yeah, I think I mentioned that I think they're a cult. I've only seen one short documentary on them. Are they isolated from everyone when they're not picketing?
But in all fairness, I am not brainwashed. But as a believer, I do think there is an awful amount of evil in the world...spiritually driven evil....and its sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. Believers and non-believers alike. But believers definitely have a bigger target. I don't think you have to even leave your house to see the demonic presence in our world.

Not only are they a cult, the upper echelons of the WBC are all relatives.

It's a cult run by the Phelps family.

But here's the thing: Short of physically kidnapping them from the compound, how does one do this?


You wanted a solution, I gave it. How you want to implement it is up to your discretion.

Not only are they a cult, the upper echelons of the WBC are all relatives.

Right but incomplete: Almost ALL members of the WBC are relatives, by blood or by marriage.

Right but incomplete: Almost ALL members of the WBC are relatives, by blood or by marriage.

Yeah I think they said something like 80% are interrelated.

Out of genuine curiousity, has the WBC been openly denounced by the major Christian sects?

Out of genuine curiousity, has the WBC been openly denounced by the major Christian sects?

Because if not, it'll become my Second Joker! :D

Out of genuine curiousity, has the WBC been openly denounced by the major Christian sects?

Not sure. I suspect they're largely taking an "Ignore them" approach but that's just my guess.

Not sure. I suspect they're largely taking an "Ignore them" approach but that's just my guess.

Wouldn't it help if the leaders of all the various sects stepped forward and collectively called the WBC a bunch of cultist maniacs?

Wouldn't it help if the leaders of all the various sects stepped forward and collectively called the WBC a bunch of cultist maniacs?

I don't think so, because on some level that's playing into their hands. The WBC would probably respond with "SEE! This is proof that the devil has them!" And as for the general public perception, I think they get it just fine on their own.

But it would be interesting to do a little searching to see.

We call it ridicule, the self-proclaimed martyrs of the WBC probably consider it to be persecution.

If they do, they're hypocritical. Targeting strangers' funerals to make hateful displays and claim those dead are in hell is far more "persecution" than me saying they're hateful for doing it.

Yeah I think they said something like 80% are interrelated.

More than that -- I believe I read there are 71 members, 60 of whom are Phelps family or married to Phelps family.

If they do, they're hypocritical. Targeting strangers' funerals to make hateful displays and claim those dead are in hell is far more "persecution" than me saying they're hateful for doing it.


True, but you are thinking rationally. They are not.

Out of genuine curiousity, has the WBC been openly denounced by the major Christian sects?
They have been denounced frequently by Christian leaders from many different denominations.

I think of the WBC as a train wreck.

I've been doing a little research on this and I guess, on some level, I'm digging for something that makes it not a total loss... And I'm finding nothing. I don't mean to go on a bash-rant here but this is really bugging me and I was kinda wondering... Is there anyone out there who actually would defend this?

Greetings,

You have a news article or anything I can refer to. The name rings a bell, but currently on my vacation and so have not been listening to the news cept for major headlines (hole in Sydney plane sorta news)

Cheers, ES

Greetings,

You have a news article or anything I can refer to. The name rings a bell, but currently on my vacation and so have not been listening to the news cept for major headlines (hole in Sydney plane sorta news)

Cheers, ES

Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church)

Right but incomplete: Almost ALL members of the WBC are relatives, by blood or by marriage.

Makes you wonder what kind of fool would marry into that...

Makes you wonder what kind of fool would marry into that...

Bwhahaahaha! Indeed, umm you know Charles Manson, also had him a 'family'!

Bwhahaahaha! Indeed, umm you know Charles Manson, also had him a 'family'!

He wasn't nearly as successful as Phelps, in terms of member count. Makes you wonder if he's peddling mind-altering drugs.

He wasn't nearly as successful as Phelps, in terms of member count. Makes you wonder if he's peddling mind-altering drugs.

Are you implying that WBC members have minds to alter?

Are you implying that WBC members have minds to alter?

Let's be fair, of course they do, which is what makes this all t he more tragic.

I know you were joking, but it does bring up a valid issue that's a part of my wish that this could be resolved somehow, namely, that it's precisely because these people are intelligent, honest people who, in any other context, would probably be well respected and liked. The fact is they've been brainwashed and misled by Fred, and that only magnifies my sense of loss here.

Are you implying that WBC members have minds to alter?

Maybe they had some before, but it's quite apparent that they've been erased.

I've actually seen those bastards in real life. My school had put on a performance of the Laramie Project on November 2, 2007. They actually came and protested. There was a counter protest with like 200 people that included my school's faculty, students, and other random people. My friend went behind them and yelled out "It's okay to be gay" then one of the guys was like "Faggot perverts over there!" pointing at the counter protestors. Then the guy's like, "You're going to hell son." Then my friend's like, "Yea, I made a deal with the devil." So he pisses him off, then the cop's like, okay you gotta leave them alone. They also protested at various churches around my hometown the next day. They seriously have a shitload of time on their hands.

Knows the meaning,of " phobia " in the dictionary,the PC crew use the word homophobe as a attack on persons not buying into the diveristy nonsence, I however dislike the tatics of the WBC,you can get your point across and not be unpleasent.

Not when your "point" is that someone is inferior to you because they happen to prefer sex with their same gender. If that's your point you remain unpleasant no matter how polite you pretend to be.

I will not for one second hesitate to say that WBC is a stench to all they say they 'uphold', and is a disgrace to their 'belief' - which I believe is so warped that it has become a separate 'faith' of its own.

As a Christian who doesn't attend church (because of these tendencies...even on a much milder scale) - I can say with all confidence that I consider WBC members in more opposition to Christianity than an atheist is - simply because atheists don't claim to be Christian.

GodHatesFags. GodHatesAmerica. What rubbish. God may hate the act of homosexuality, and he may hate various things America allows, but he loves every person individually and unconditionally - even if they openly spit in his face, and never choose to accept him. No exceptions.

_______________________
CoN Lord Chancellor
Delegate of The Council of Narnia

God may hate the act of homosexuality, and he may hate various things America allows

No, He doesn't.

Y'know, I sometimes wish I had the powers of a D&D Illusionist. I'd manage to amplify my voice, create sounds and lights, all of it to better ask preachers like Phelps (heck, even those like Joseph Ratzlinger or just about any religious zealot of any religion, ANY) in an ominous, anime-style voice: "YOU DARE TO BELIEVE YOU SPEAK FOR GOD? YOU DARE TO THINK YOU KNOW HIS INTENTIONS? YOU HAVE THE GALL TO THINK YOU EVEN KNOW GOD'S A HE?" - and so on. It'd be swell. ;)

Apparently nothing happens in the world without it being allowed by God, since he's omniscient, omnipotent and all that jazz. So why the hell would God hate something that He Himself allows to exist? God is perfect, therefore the world must be perfect as well.

No, He doesn't.

Y'know, I sometimes wish I had the powers of a D&D Illusionist. I'd manage to amplify my voice, create sounds and lights, all of it to better ask preachers like Phelps (heck, even those like Joseph Ratzlinger or just about any religious zealot of any religion, ANY) in an ominous, anime-style voice: "YOU DARE TO BELIEVE YOU SPEAK FOR GOD? YOU DARE TO THINK YOU KNOW HIS INTENTIONS? YOU HAVE THE GALL TO THINK YOU EVEN KNOW GOD'S A HE?" - and so on. It'd be swell. ;)

I'm sorry, so you're telling them off for speaking on behalf of God, and then....speaking on behalf of God??

Maybe God would be more mysterious, if he hadn't already revealed himself to man. God doesn't promote hate, but he sure doesn't promote sin.

I'm sorry, so you're telling them off for speaking on behalf of God, and then....speaking on behalf of God??

Maybe God would be more mysterious, if he hadn't already revealed himself to man. God doesn't promote hate, but he sure doesn't promote sin.

If we are talking about the Christian God I think he does.

I mean after all, he let Adam eat the fruit, he just floated there and watched him do it. He didn't stomp the snake or anything, thats promoting sin if anything is.

If we are talking about the Christian God I think he does.

I mean after all, he let Adam eat the fruit, he just floated there and watched him do it. He didn't stomp the snake or anything, thats promoting sin if anything is.

So its actually Gods fault when we do something to rebel against him? What a wonderful way to completely avoid responsibility and yet keep your free will at the same time.
Or, maybe we could be grown ups and accept that when we make a choice there are consequences to it....

I think of the WBC as a train wreck.

I've been doing a little research on this and I guess, on some level, I'm digging for something that makes it not a total loss... And I'm finding nothing. I don't mean to go on a bash-rant here but this is really bugging me and I was kinda wondering... Is there anyone out there who actually would defend this?

That depends on what you mean by "defend." Are you talking about defending the content of their speech? I certainly wouldn't. I find it vile, horrifying, disgusting, hateful, and all around nasty.

But would I defend their right to say it? Absolutely. That's what free speech is, after all. The best part about it is that their ideas will be exposed for what they are in a free forum where everyone can discuss and realize they're wrong, over time, whereas that doesn't happen with banning hate speech.

So its actually Gods fault when we do something to rebel against him? What a wonderful way to completely avoid responsibility and yet keep your free will at the same time.
Or, maybe we could be grown ups and accept that when we make a choice there are consequences to it....

No but it is Gods fault if he tests us, and then based on the results of that test condones the whole of humanity.

I mean if I was to test my child knowing full well that he would fail it then punish him, and all of his offspring, then people can rightly call me a rotten old bastard.

Why would a loving God do that ummm?

I would guess coz either, that concept of God is false, or that particular story is false.

So its actually Gods fault when we do something to rebel against him? What a wonderful way to completely avoid responsibility and yet keep your free will at the same time.
Or, maybe we could be grown ups and accept that when we make a choice there are consequences to it....

Your God is pretty weird like that, otherwise he wouldn't have created the ability to rebel. Hell, the mother of all concentration camps, was specifically designed by that loving God of yours to be filled with the condemned souls of billions upon billions of people. That's divine love for you, I guess.

We could also be grown ups and accept that it's possible to live a worthy live without the mental crutch of a tyrannical wizard in the sky.

No but it is Gods fault if he tests us, and then based on the results of that test condones the whole of humanity.

I mean if I was to test my child knowing full well that he would fail it then punish him, and all of his offspring, then people can rightly call me a rotten old bastard.

Why would a loving God do that ummm?

I would guess coz either, that concept of God is false, or that particular story is false.

Except, he didn't condone the whole of humanity. Eternal judgement, as in you are seperated from God forever in hell, doesn't enter the equation until the invention of the law....and it was humanity who asked for the law. God had no intention of ever giving it. And then, like a true parent, rescued us from it.
Would you feel satisified if your child was completely perfect, but had no choice whatsoever in loving you. Every time they hugged you, it was because there was no other option. Every time they said "Peeps, I love you" you knew it was hollow, because they couldn't choose love.

Except, he didn't condone the whole of humanity. Eternal judgement, as in you are seperated from God forever in hell, doesn't enter the equation until the invention of the law....and it was humanity who asked for the law. God had no intention of ever giving it. And then, like a true parent, rescued us from it.
Would you feel satisified if your child was completely perfect, but had no choice whatsoever in loving you. Every time they hugged you, it was because there was no other option. Every time they said "Peeps, I love you" you knew it was hollow, because they couldn't choose love.

Well theres a lot to go through there, the most important of which is what do you mean by perfect? However as a human with emotion, this is never going to happen to me is it, because my children have not only the same geneitc material as me, but similar emotional responces.

For the sake of argument though, it is great that my children love me, if they did not, sure it would hurt, but that would in time pass. Another of those 'lots of things to go through' though, is what is hollowness, what is true love?

So its actually Gods fault when we do something to rebel against him? What a wonderful way to completely avoid responsibility and yet keep your free will at the same time.

Here cometh the difference between protestants (servum arbitrium) and catholics (liberum arbitrium).

I'll just sit back and enjoy a reenacting of the Reform Wars.

Your God is pretty weird like that, otherwise he wouldn't have created the ability to rebel. Hell, the mother of all concentration camps, was specifically designed by that loving God of yours to be filled with the condemned souls of billions upon billions of people. That's divine love for you, I guess.



Actually, if you read the bible, hell was not created for mankind. God had no intention of ever letting one human soul into that awful place. It was created for evil.
Yes he created the ability to rebel. Because he gave us the ability to exercise free will. He also, created us in his own image and made us lord over the earth. We were meant to govern it. We were, and still are to a degree powerful beings....powerful enough, that if we did not want to, we could have chosen not to rebel. Its not like we were faced with this incredibly difficult, mind perplexing task.
Don't eat the fruit from that one tree...yeah, thats a real stumper. He really fucked us over on that one.
But I would say that divine love, is giving up everything to give those billions and billions of souls a choice not to end up there. The God of the heavens, gave up the comfort of the throne room and his glory, to die on a cross for your sin....and its not even guarenteed that you will take him up on the offer. He died so that you might live.
He became the blood sacrifice for your sins. He split up the trinity which had always been, so that you wouldn't have to be split from him. And once you accept that sacrifice, he reinstates you as though you never fucked it up. More than that, it says in the bible that believers are seated with Christ. God withholds nothing of himself from you.
I would say thats divine love.

We could also be grown ups and accept that it's possible to live a worthy live without the mental crutch of a tyrannical wizard in the sky.

Yeah....because people have proven throughout history how fundamentally good we are and how worthy a life we tend to live if we think there are no consequences...
Define a worthy life? Maybe you don't need a tyrannical wizard to keep you in check. I think thats great. But you do live by the law don't you? So, your own society doesn't think you're capable of living a worthy life?

I will not for one second hesitate to say that WBC is a stench to all they say they 'uphold', and is a disgrace to their 'belief' - which I believe is so warped that it has become a separate 'faith' of its own.

As a Christian who doesn't attend church (because of these tendencies...even on a much milder scale) - I can say with all confidence that I consider WBC members in more opposition to Christianity than an atheist is - simply because atheists don't claim to be Christian.

GodHatesFags. GodHatesAmerica. What rubbish. God may hate the act of homosexuality, and he may hate various things America allows, but he loves every person individually and unconditionally - even if they openly spit in his face, and never choose to accept him. No exceptions.


QFT :hail:

I'm sorry, so you're telling them off for speaking on behalf of God, and then....speaking on behalf of God??

Maybe God would be more mysterious, if he hadn't already revealed himself to man. God doesn't promote hate, but he sure doesn't promote sin.

QFT :hail:

That depends on what you mean by "defend." Are you talking about defending the content of their speech? I certainly wouldn't. I find it vile, horrifying, disgusting, hateful, and all around nasty.

But would I defend their right to say it? Absolutely. That's what free speech is, after all. The best part about it is that their ideas will be exposed for what they are in a free forum where everyone can discuss and realize they're wrong, over time, whereas that doesn't happen with banning hate speech.

Absolutely. This is why I'm on the fence about laws that create zones where the protesters can be. While it doesn't actually stop them from protesting (which is their right, even when they exercise it stupidly) it does seem to open the door for more restrictions later that may or may not be consistent with the freedom to protest.

Well theres a lot to go through there, the most important of which is what do you mean by perfect? However as a human with emotion, this is never going to happen to me is it, because my children have not only the same geneitc material as me, but similar emotional responces.

For the sake of argument though, it is great that my children love me, if they did not, sure it would hurt, but that would in time pass. Another of those 'lots of things to go through' though, is what is hollowness, what is true love?

We were also made in the image of God. Perfection as in without sin. And I'm refering to sin from the bible, in regards to this argument.
As for the rest of those questions, I think you've missed the point a little.
What if your child could not choose to love you? Would it be love?

We were also made in the image of God. Perfection as in without sin. And I'm refering to sin from the bible, in regards to this argument.
As for the rest of those questions, I think you've missed the point a little.
What if your child could not choose to love you? Would it be love?

Missed the point hardly, see my last question.

Absolutely. This is why I'm on the fence about laws that create zones where the protesters can be. While it doesn't actually stop them from protesting (which is their right, even when they exercise it stupidly) it does seem to open the door for more restrictions later that may or may not be consistent with the freedom to protest.

Unfortunately there's only so much we can do about that. Unrestricted protesting leads to serious riots and other potential problems, especially interference in a number of things in ways that probably aren't best.

Personally I think the system we've got now is a good one. It allows for protesting and lets such speech be exercised without the problems. (Think of it as akin to placing potential criminal liabilities to someone who shouts "Fire!" in a crowded theatre when there isn't one and causes panic which results in death.)

Missed the point hardly, see my last question.

You want to know what true love is? I answered it in a post to another guy, its a few posts up the page. Sorry, I thought I'd refered to it.

I guess, what i'm saying is that without choice, you can't love to the extent of a deep relationship.
E.g. My sister had one of those mechanical dogs. It did all the same things a dog could do (it didn't have fur though and it creeped me out). It could lick her, and bark to be patted, and respond when it was patted. But it couldn't bite her. But it didn't have a choice in the matter. It was programmed.
I also have a groodle puppy (cutest thing ever. Half poodle half golden retriever, looks like it put a paw in a power socket). When I pat it, it can respond back or it can withdraw or it can bite me. But I know that when its cuddled up on me, its real because it has the ability not to be there. It chooses to love me. And that is far more fulfilling than the robot dog, even though its a lot more work. And yeah, when it bites me I discipline it. Because I don't deserve to go around being bitten.
Thats a very simplistic example, the human version would have a lot more dimension to it. Because a dog is not made in my image, it cannot share ideas or even communicate with me on my level.
Humans were made for relationship with God. In the garden, Adam walked with God in the cool of the evening. We were always meant to be his family. And God wanted to give us his heart.

You want to know what true love is? I answered it in a post to another guy, its a few posts up the page. Sorry, I thought I'd refered to it.

I guess, what i'm saying is that without choice, you can't love to the extent of a deep relationship.
E.g. My sister had one of those mechanical dogs. It did all the same things a dog could do (it didn't have fur though and it creeped me out). It could lick her, and bark to be patted, and respond when it was patted. But it couldn't bite her. But it didn't have a choice in the matter. It was programmed.
I also have a groodle puppy (cutest thing ever. Half poodle half golden retriever, looks like it put a paw in a power socket). When I pat it, it can respond back or it can withdraw or it can bite me. But I know that when its cuddled up on me, its real because it has the ability not to be there. It chooses to love me. And that is far more fulfilling than the robot dog, even though its a lot more work. And yeah, when it bites me I discipline it. Because I don't deserve to go around being bitten.
Thats a very simplistic example, the human version would have a lot more dimension to it. Because a dog is not made in my image, it cannot share ideas or even communicate with me on my level.
Humans were made for relationship with God. In the garden, Adam walked with God in the cool of the evening. We were always meant to be his family. And God wanted to give us his heart.

Exactly so without choice love can not be called love, so your question means nowt.

Exactly so without choice love can not be called love, so your question means nowt.

Which is what I've been trying to get at.
This is the reason we were given free will.
The fact that we were given free will doesn't mean that we will automatically love, and doesn't mean that we will automatically rebel. So why is God cruel for giving you free will?

Which is what I've been trying to get at.
This is the reason we were given free will.
The fact that we were given free will doesn't mean that we will automatically love, and doesn't mean that we will automatically rebel. So why is God cruel for giving you free will?

I didn't say that did I.

What I said is that the Christian concept of a God that would test and then punish us for failing that test, and knowing that we would fail it, is not condusive to the concept of a loving God.

I'm sure there's a Broadway make-up artist that disagrees with you out there somewhere.

They would have SOME job with that...http://photo.net/shared/portrait-bits.tcl?user_id=537657

You want to know what true love is? I answered it in a post to another guy, its a few posts up the page. Sorry, I thought I'd refered to it.

I guess, what i'm saying is that without choice, you can't love to the extent of a deep relationship.
E.g. My sister had one of those mechanical dogs. It did all the same things a dog could do (it didn't have fur though and it creeped me out). It could lick her, and bark to be patted, and respond when it was patted. But it couldn't bite her. But it didn't have a choice in the matter. It was programmed.
I also have a groodle puppy (cutest thing ever. Half poodle half golden retriever, looks like it put a paw in a power socket). When I pat it, it can respond back or it can withdraw or it can bite me. But I know that when its cuddled up on me, its real because it has the ability not to be there. It chooses to love me. And that is far more fulfilling than the robot dog, even though its a lot more work. And yeah, when it bites me I discipline it. Because I don't deserve to go around being bitten.
Thats a very simplistic example, the human version would have a lot more dimension to it. Because a dog is not made in my image, it cannot share ideas or even communicate with me on my level.
Humans were made for relationship with God. In the garden, Adam walked with God in the cool of the evening. We were always meant to be his family. And God wanted to give us his heart.


It never fails to astonish me how christians insist on coopting mythology from cultures which precede even the very first mention of the Old Testament Deity. The story of Eden is a Sumero-akkadian version of a myth from somewhere in the southern caucasus, most likely some ancestral culture of Urartu. The god of Eden is not the biblical god at all, indeed the creator in question is likely a prototype of one of the Old Testament's anti-gods such as El or Shamash or Ea or Enlil et al. The Serpent is the Old Testament's typically perjorative term for a goddess such as Isara or Hulmittu who before judaism was acredited with transmitting the creator's wisdom to his created.

Much of the rest of the story is a garbbled history of the developement of competing primitive farming techniques, half remebered natural disasters and sundry other tall tales. Even the mystical mumbo jumbo of of ancient mesopotamia cannot transform this rather foolish fairy tale into anything resembling a treatise on the soul of man, his relationship with good and evil or his responsibilities to his putative creator.

Genesis is primitive peotry of a very interesting kind, but strictly from an anthropological stand point, hardly from a profound philosophical one.

Unfortunately there's only so much we can do about that. Unrestricted protesting leads to serious riots and other potential problems, especially interference in a number of things in ways that probably aren't best.

Personally I think the system we've got now is a good one. It allows for protesting and lets such speech be exercised without the problems. (Think of it as akin to placing potential criminal liabilities to someone who shouts "Fire!" in a crowded theatre when there isn't one and causes panic which results in death.)

I agree, so long as we can keep it where it is. My fear is that we cannot.

Apparently nothing happens in the world without it being allowed by God, since he's omniscient, omnipotent and all that jazz. So why the hell would God hate something that He Himself allows to exist? God is perfect, therefore the world must be perfect as well.

God gave us free will (the whole point of the Garden of Eden story?). When they did something he did not like (eating of the fruit of the tree of life), HE punished them.

In the same way that my best friend's thirteen year old is told sharply, "She HAS two parents already, mind your business and butt out!" when she tries to boss and correct her eight year old sister... people should mind their own fucking business when it comes to 'correcting' their 'bad' behavior.

It never fails to astonish me how christians insist on coopting mythology from cultures which precede even the very first mention of the Old Testament Deity. The story of Eden is a Sumero-akkadian version of a myth from somewhere in the southern caucasus, most likely some ancestral culture of Urartu. The god of Eden is not the biblical god at all, indeed the creator in question is likely a prototype of one of the Old Testament's anti-gods such as El or Shamash or Ea or Enlil et al. The Serpent is the Old Testament's typically perjorative term for a goddess such as Isara or Hulmittu who before judaism was acredited with transmitting the creator's wisdom to his created.

Much of the rest of the story is a garbbled history of the developement of competing primitive farming techniques, half remebered natural disasters and sundry other tall tales. Even the mystical mumbo jumbo of of ancient mesopotamia cannot transform this rather foolish fairy tale into anything resembling a treatise on the soul of man, his relationship with good and evil or his responsibilities to his putative creator.

Genesis is primitive peotry of a very interesting kind, but strictly from an anthropological stand point, hardly from a profound philosophical one.

And many religions have the same "great flood" imagery in it....
and various different cultures have the Cinderella story....
and lots of cuisines have things in an edible wrapper (eggroll, burrito, spring roll, manicotti)...

...Your point?

And many religions have the same "great flood" imagery in it....
and various different cultures have the Cinderella story....
and lots of cuisines have things in an edible wrapper (eggroll, burrito, spring roll, manicotti)...

...Your point?

The point i made in my post, which is not that many religions have the same silly fairy tales but that their very commonplace nature and their infinite variation of interpretation make them impossible to apply as universal truths or constant philosophical axioms. Would one use the coincidence of use of springroll type foods around the world to postulate that god wanted us only ever to eat our food wrapped in sheets of processed carbohydrate?

Let's be fair, of course they do, which is what makes this all t he more tragic.

I know you were joking, but it does bring up a valid issue that's a part of my wish that this could be resolved somehow, namely, that it's precisely because these people are intelligent, honest people who, in any other context, would probably be well respected and liked. The fact is they've been brainwashed and misled by Fred, and that only magnifies my sense of loss here.No, they're stupid and self-deluding people who, in any other context, would be assholes of some other kind.

No, they're stupid and self-deluding people who, in any other context, would be assholes of some other kind.

If oversimplifying it is what floats your boat...

Yeah, the WBC are a bunch of pricks. Plain and simple.
More than that, I believe they were sued for six million dollars after the funeral of a Marine Lance Corporal. His father sued for emotional distress, stuff like that. I remember seeing it on the news a while back...I'm gonna look that up though and try to source it.


I remember the anchorman trying to talk to Phelps, but all you could hear was Phelps going on about how it was a violation of his first amendment rights and everybody was going to hell...

EDIT: Here is the link (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/31/funeral.protest/)

more money than I thought.

Yeah, the WBC are a bunch of pricks. Plain and simple.
More than that, I believe they were sued for six million dollars after the funeral of a Marine Lance Corporal. His father sued for emotional distress, stuff like that. I remember seeing it on the news a while back...I'm gonna look that up though and try to source it.


I remember the anchorman trying to talk to Phelps, but all you could hear was Phelps going on about how it was a violation of his first amendment rights and everybody was going to hell...

EDIT: Here is the link (http://http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/31/funeral.protest/)

more money than I thought.

Yeah and that always leaves me wondering... with a judgment against them like that, how the heck do they afford to keep traveling to all these places to protest?

Yeah and that always leaves me wondering... with a judgment against them like that, how the heck do they afford to keep traveling to all these places to protest?

It's been appealed. I don't know much about how that works in court, but if something like this is appealed, do they have to pay right away? Or would it wait until after the appeal?

It's been appealed. I don't know much about how that works in court, but if something like this is appealed, do they have to pay right away? Or would it wait until after the appeal?

I would guess that if it's under appeal then it's on hold. I don't really know though. Being as Phelps and his daughter are lawyers, I should have assumed they'd appeal.

If oversimplifying it is what floats your boat...
Have you talked to any of those people? It is really is just that simple.

I would guess that if it's under appeal then it's on hold. I don't really know though. Being as Phelps and his daughter are lawyers, I should have assumed they'd appeal.

*sigh*

Yeah. Here's to hoping the appelate courts smack Phelps in the face with a rotten fish.

Have you talked to any of those people? It is really is just that simple.

Oh I've seen 'em in action and that's the tragedy.

Look, if you just want to hate 'em and telling yourself that somehow they're just stupid evil people so that you can give yourself permission to do so is what you need then go for it, but reality is what it is.

They're brainwashed. Irrevocably? Maybe, I don't know. Phelps is the one doing it and every single person in his church is as much his victim as the people he wants to lash out at. That's the tragedy. Phelps isn't just the leader of a group of asshats. He's an asshat who's dragging about 100 people down with him.

*sigh*

Yeah. Here's to hoping the appelate courts smack Phelps in the face with a rotten fish.

I don't know what the standard is but since these people are rabid one can hope the appeal is frivolous and baseless.

:crosses fingers:

Oh I've seen 'em in action and that's the tragedy.
You've seen the Phelpses themselves? I am only going by my experience with local Phelpsoids, who may to be sure be stupider than the Phelpses for all I know, although I get the impression that all these people are very similar, practically "cloned".
Look, if you just want to hate 'em and telling yourself that somehow they're just stupid evil people so that you can give yourself permission to do so is what you need then go for it, but reality is what it is.
No, what I wanted to do was open their minds and their hearts. Sadly, I found that this was quite impossible.

Those MFers need to be disbanded ASAP!!! I can't even believe that an organization like theirs is allowed to exist. I understand and am all about political/religious freedoms and the right to free speech and expression but I believe that those who take it too far should be knocked down a peg or two... or 20...

Anyway, since the Westboro Baptist Church (if you could even CALL them a CHRISTIAN organization...) was brought up I thought I'd share a column I wrote for the newspaper I work for. I wrote it back in 2006 but it's still highly relevant to today.

Protecting the right to be buried... peacefully

Small, pitiful groups of merciless traitors sporting hateful signs riddled with nasty slogans such as “Thank God for I.E.Ds” and “Thank God for dead soldiers,” have been taking it upon themselves to infringe on the solemness of military funerals across the country.
The brave men and women of the United States Armed Forces deserve nothing less than to be buried peacefully, with honor in tact. Afterall, they unselfishly gifted the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of freedom and prosperity to their fellow citizens— their lives.
Instead, many soldiers’ families have literally been forced to stand by and watch, helplessly, as Rev. Frank Phelps and his band of gay — and apparently America—hating cronies singlehandly defile and dishonor their beloved soldier.
The activists, from Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, Kan., argue that “God is killing U.S. soldiers because they fight for a country that tolerates homosexuality,” according to an Associated Press report.
Apparently this gives these protesters the right to show up uninvited to a military service, which in and of itself is a solemn final rite of passage for a servicemember, and say whatever they please while all the family wanted to do was lay their son or daughter to rest.
What gets me, aside from the fact that these people actually believe God is seeking revenge on America for accepting homosexuality, is that they actually think it is within their rights and OK to just show up and disrupt the family’s time of mourning. As if dealing with the grief isn’t enough, now the soldiers’ loved ones must be hindered by embarassment and pile anger and annoyance on top of already overwhelming emotions.
As the future wife of an American veteran who served in Iraq, I am nothing short of appalled by the antics of these so-called Christians. I was fortunate enough that my fiance came home from Iraq safely with nothing more than a slight case of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, but I can only imagine what it would be like if he were among the fallen.
As a Christian, I have a hard time believing that God would be as vengeful as to enact disparaging feelings on those working so hard to defend Christian values and instill the importance of freedom.
Based on this, I strongly feel that Phelps and his gang of activists need to seriously re-evaluate their Christian values and whether or not they will make it to Heaven if they continue on this path of utter disrespect and hate. I mean, what do they think they can accomplish by protesting a military funeral, or any funeral for that matter? Talk about adding insult to injury.
Perhaps they should, instead of wasting their time at military funerals, delve a little deeper into the Bible to examine the concept of “do unto others.” At the same time it might not be a bad idea for the Phelps Gang to keep the saying “what goes around, comes around” in mind as they plan their next funeral protest because somehow I doubt any of them would be too pleased if either their funeral or a funeral of one of their loved ones were interrupted by protesters.
I can’t possibly fathom how these people, who claim to be Christians doing God’s work, can feel good about themselves while protesting at a funeral. Although I can’t speak for God, somehow I don’t believe that blatant disrespect for others during a time of sadness and mourning is what the “good will towards all mankind” value was supposed to entail.
Rather than vengeance, the Bible teaches compassion and forgiveness, especially in the face of grave sadness, adversity and sin. Apparently, these so-called Christians were sleeping in Sunday School while these teachings were being discussed.
But I digress.
Thankfully, Pennsylvania is among the states that passed legislation barring such protesters from appearing at military funerals. While the activists argue that their basic First Amendment rights are being violated, the fact remains that the mourning military families First Amendment rights were being violated long before this piece of legislation passed.
Just as protesters have a right to express themselves freely, so do fallen servicemen and women have a right to be laid to rest peacefully. Let’s not forget that it is largely because of American soldiers - marines, airmen and seamen - that we are afforded the freedoms we have today. The least anyone in this country could do, whether you’re anti-war or not, is afford our troops this honor.
I shudder to think what this country would be like were it not for the generations of troops, both past and present, risking their lives to preserve what our forefathers sought to achieve almost 300 years ago.

You've seen the Phelpses themselves? I am only going by my experience with local Phelpsoids, who may to be sure be stupider than the Phelpses for all I know, although I get the impression that all these people are very similar, practically "cloned".

Not in person. What I'm talking about was this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEqlcxW8aS8) and others like it. What I see when I look at those two granddaughters is a couple of intelligent young women who have been severely brainwashed to the point where it may not be possible to get them back.


No, what I wanted to do was open their minds and their hearts. Sadly, I found that this was quite impossible.

Undoing the effects of brainwashing takes a long time and intense therapy.

Therapy does not work with the unwilling.

Fuck the Westboro Baptist Church, you can be not for the homosexual lifestyle, and not need be a total nutbag,they should be beaten with sticks about the head and shoulders.

For protesting against US troops for doing their duty,the Westboro Baptist Church needs the mega bitchslap,while being disembowled..

What's wrong with the homosexual lifestyle???

I'm sorry, so you're telling them off for speaking on behalf of God, and then....speaking on behalf of God??

Maybe God would be more mysterious, if he hadn't already revealed himself to man. God doesn't promote hate, but he sure doesn't promote sin.

Uhm, I'd actually speak on behalf of Doubt.

Therapy does not work with the unwilling.

Depends on the methods.

That's an interesting point.

It may well be fallacy to say they aren't 'true' Christians, but I think it's pretty safe to say they fall tragically short of setting a good example of what being a Christian is all about.

For me at least, my beliefs on what constitute a Christian lifestyle run in direct opposition to WBC's actions. My own beliefs demand that I not think them to be true Christians because we cannot both be right. If I am right, WBC is wrong and vice versa. I do understand that this isn't proof in a debate but only one of us can be right (unless we're both wrong) and I'm not inclined to think it myself in this instance.

Perfectly logical minds rely on preset conditions and rulesets as the basis of their reasoning. Water is wet, fire is hot, that sort of thing. The trick is to blur the line, as well as reduce their cognitive ability. Break down the foundations of their thought structure, insert your intended message/idea/etc and let them rebuild their minds over it. It makes for a much more resilient controlled mind.

What about apathetic agnostic fatalistic nihilists?

Out of genuine curiousity, has the WBC been openly denounced by the major Christian sects?

Better not to validate them, I'd assume.

No, they're stupid and self-deluding people who, in any other context, would be assholes of some other kind.

First rule of propaganda: dehumanize your enemy.

I agree, so long as we can keep it where it is. My fear is that we cannot.

That's what staying politically active is for. After all, the whole point to our system of government is for the people to stay involved, and so they should. The less we stay involved, the more those in power wishing to abuse their power can use the power of the government to abuse crap.

What about apathetic agnostic fatalistic nihilists?


They wouldn't be logical then.

They wouldn't be logical then.

But how would you deal with them?

But how would you deal with them?

Depends on how you want to deal with them. Or rather, how you want to reprogram them.

Uhm, I'd actually speak on behalf of Doubt.

Well, the way I didn't get much grey area from your "No He doesn't" I thought that was pretty clear....anyway....its not really all that important.

I didn't say that did I.

What I said is that the Christian concept of a God that would test and then punish us for failing that test, and knowing that we would fail it, is not condusive to the concept of a loving God.

I would actually think that giving us free will was a wonderful gift. I spoke about it a little in a post to Hurde, that He didn't actually set us up to fail. And the only punishment we recieved at that point in time, was to be exiled from the garden and we werent going to have life on a silver platter anymore.
God gave us this paradise garden with every food and plant imaginable...and he said don't eat from ONE tree. In a forest the size of the amazon, would you set out to eat from the one tree you were warned against eating? And its the only one of its kind...and has been clearly pointed out to you...Its not a hard task. And we were given lordship over the earth and everything in it. Its not like Adam and Eve were incredibly stupid...they were capable and powerful enough to govern a planet on God's behalf. He also made sure they knew the consequences of whatever choice they made, it was a bad choice, but an informed choice. They weren't ignorant of what they were going to do to themselves.
But because God knew that we would rebel makes him unloving? To me, makes me wonder why after happened he didn't just wipe us out. Especially if he knew what it was going to cost to redeem us. Except, he loves us and thought we were worth it.

No, what I wanted to do was open their minds and their hearts. Sadly, I found that this was quite impossible.

I've only seen one doco on them, and one of the girls going to highschool seemed quite open to listening to other people's ideas. Even though, it scared her to death.
Must be so lonely for them...

I would actually think that giving us free will was a wonderful gift. I spoke about it a little in a post to Hurde, that He didn't actually set us up to fail. And the only punishment we recieved at that point in time, was to be exiled from the garden and we werent going to have life on a silver platter anymore.
God gave us this paradise garden with every food and plant imaginable...and he said don't eat from ONE tree. In a forest the size of the amazon, would you set out to eat from the one tree you were warned against eating? And its the only one of its kind...and has been clearly pointed out to you...Its not a hard task. And we were given lordship over the earth and everything in it. Its not like Adam and Eve were incredibly stupid...they were capable and powerful enough to govern a planet on God's behalf. He also made sure they knew the consequences of whatever choice they made, it was a bad choice, but an informed choice. They weren't ignorant of what they were going to do to themselves.
But because God knew that we would rebel makes him unloving? To me, makes me wonder why after happened he didn't just wipe us out. Especially if he knew what it was going to cost to redeem us. Except, he loves us and thought we were worth it.

Look at it this way. Assuming the story's true, god made us. God being all-knowing knew exactly what his creation would do. God being all-powerfull would have been able to change his creation so that they wouldn't do it.
But god decided to create us this way anyway, knowing full well what we were going to get up to.
And then decides to punish us when we do what he knew we would do, because he made us in a way that would lead to us doing it.

That sounds neither like free will nor like a loving individual to me.

Look at it this way. Assuming the story's true, god made us. God being all-knowing knew exactly what his creation would do. God being all-powerfull would have been able to change his creation so that they wouldn't do it.
But god decided to create us this way anyway, knowing full well what we were going to get up to.
And then decides to punish us when we do what he knew we would do, because he made us in a way that would lead to us doing it.

That sounds neither like free will nor like a loving individual to me.

It really is like beating my head against a brick wall with this.

Lets say you have children. You made your child. Lets assume, that you know everything that your child will ever do in his/her lifetime. Are you unloving to still discipline/punish them when they choose to do the wrong thing? Or to be loving, do you have to let them do whatever they want whenever they want without consequence?
Free will is the ability to make an informed choice. God knowing what the outcome would be had no impact on our opportunity or ability to make it.
And the scenario I'm talking about is specific to Adam and Eve, when rebellion against God began.
Punishing someone, doesn't automatically mean you don't love them.

For me at least, my beliefs on what constitute a Christian lifestyle run in direct opposition to WBC's actions. My own beliefs demand that I not think them to be true Christians because we cannot both be right. If I am right, WBC is wrong and vice versa. I do understand that this isn't proof in a debate but only one of us can be right (unless we're both wrong) and I'm not inclined to think it myself in this instance.


I see what you mean. For myself, I only hesitate to question their Christianity as such because I get so rankled when people question mine (for being a Mormon.) I'm trying to avoid being a hypocrite.

But you do make a good point.

That's what staying politically active is for. After all, the whole point to our system of government is for the people to stay involved, and so they should. The less we stay involved, the more those in power wishing to abuse their power can use the power of the government to abuse crap.

True dat.

Well, the way I didn't get much grey area from your "No He doesn't" I thought that was pretty clear....anyway....its not really all that important.

Oh, right. Well, that's because a god, an entity older than the universe, can't be at one time an actual god and have such human emotions as "I wanna stop them from having fun under penalty of Hell because I find it icky".

Oh, right. Well, that's because a god, an entity older than the universe, can't be at one time an actual god and have such human emotions as "I wanna stop them from having fun under penalty of Hell because I find it icky".

Why?
If we are made in the image of God...then couldn't it be that our human emotions image his emotions? Why can't God have emotions?

Actually, if you look at most sin...eliminating the prospect of hell...it is actually harmful to you. And God doesn't send people to hell for having fun. He judges people according to their sin.

But what if God sends people to Hell because it is fun for Him, like some kind of divine entertainment? It's not like He really tried to prevent sin from coming into existence, one might even assume that He deliberately added that principle to the human design. Well, that's another conundrum for the creationists to explain or ignore. The latter is probably more convenient for them.

I can't believe that I haven't posted here yet.

The WBC is a disgusting group of assholes.

I could go on for hours talking about how Christ did not teach us to hate homosexuals, Africans, America, Canadians, Swedes, Irishmen, Jews, Muslims, or anybody for that matter. He preached universal respect, for God's sake. So really, I don't consider WBCers to be true Christians.

That out of the way, the WBC angers me personally, as well as ideologically. Their domestic anti-Americanism is vomit-inducing. Picketing the funerals of Iraq War casualties? There is no greater insult than picketing the funeral of brave men and women who died to save their sorry asses and their freedom to spew the shit that they do. As some of you know, I grew up on a U.S. base (Stateside, not abroad), so I take this stuff very seriously.

Wait. I thought anything having something to do with the WBC or anything on the WBC was banned...?

???

But does it really? I find it impossible to believe that any person who professes to hate the entire world so virulently that they claim that everyone else is hated by God and going to hell could POSSIBLY be happy.
At least the autosmiac poster tried.

Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church)

'Matthew 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God'

Assuming the information on wikipedia is accurate, someone should show them the verse above among other verses. A shame that they do the complete opposite of Christ's example

'Matthew 5:9 - Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God'

Assuming the information on wikipedia is accurate, someone should show them the verse above among other verses. A shame that they do the complete opposite of Christ's example

The real tragedy is how absolutely convinced they are that if Jesus Christ Himself were standing there watching them protest, He'd pat them on the head.

The real tragedy is how absolutely convinced they are that if Jesus Christ Himself were standing there watching them protest, He'd pat them on the head.

To be sure, in some views, he WOULD. But then he would tell them what they were doing wrong and, afterwards, pat the heads of the people at the funeral, and comfort them. Not an "I agree" pat as much as a "being Jesus" pat, if you will.

I've only seen one doco on them, and one of the girls going to highschool seemed quite open to listening to other people's ideas. Even though, it scared her to death.
Must be so lonely for them...
The kids who had the misfortune to be raised in this cult may, of course, not be the same as the parents.

Defend how? Defend what they say or defend their right to say it?

To be sure, in some views, he WOULD. But then he would tell them what they were doing wrong and, afterwards, pat the heads of the people at the funeral, and comfort them. Not an "I agree" pat as much as a "being Jesus" pat, if you will.

That makes sense, but I suspect not the way they see it. They would expect Him to say "Well done, thou good and faithful servant..."

Defend how? Defend what they say or defend their right to say it?

I think people pretty universally agree they have a right to say it, although if you disagree by all means say so. When I originally posted I was thinking more ideologically.

That makes sense, but I suspect not the way they see it. They would expect Him to say "Well done, thou good and faithful servant..."

True, true. Just pointing it out. ;)

God hates fags because they are worthy of being stoned to death, just like those damned shellfish eaters!

If God wanted man to eat shellfish, he wouldn't have make the deadliest catch so damned boring, or made Will and Grace so unfunny. God hates America and its TV programming! Down with the TV!