NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so I have two religious questions that I want to get the opinion of NSG on.

One of the Ten Commandments is this:

"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you."

Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

Does anyone else get this impression from the whole "God works in his time, not our" expression?

Ok, so I have two religious questions that I want to get the opinion of NSG on.

One of the Ten Commandments is this:



Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

Does anyone else get this impression from the whole "God works in his time, not our" expression?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCz0-HY1TLU

:)

Ok, so I have two religious questions that I want to get the opinion of NSG on.

One of the Ten Commandments is this:



Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

Does anyone else get this impression from the whole "God works in his time, not our" expression?
Very simple Wilgrove.

1. Exodus is a bunch of propaganda made all because of an Israelite slave decided he wanted a position of power and needed justification for doing so, and so made up the book of Exodus. Well, to be fair, some of it is history.

2. He knows what to do, and when to do it. You don't test the guy who literally knows everything.:tongue: Anyways, he works on his own time which means that you DON'T have pray extra hard or give him offerings. In reality, it's just outwardly accepting the he's the boss. At least, that's my take on the subject, I'm sure there's quite a few other opinions out here.

As far as the second question goes, the expression is somewhat misleading. God does not work on "His own time" or anyone else's. God is unbounded by time, He exists in the eternal now. God's work within the world by necessity proceeds according to the flow of time. However, due to God's omniscience, He naturally knows more about the way things ought to proceed, how they will yield the best results, rather than we, who have only limited knowledge bounded by space and time, do.

Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?
Are you surprised? Of course he wants you to honor and obey if they're abusive, that's the point, so you, as a parent, can act like a total ass and never have to worry about it.

My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.


God is a Lazy bastard.

Honour or honor (see spelling differences), (the latter directly from the Latin word honos, honoris) is the evaluation of a person's trustworthiness and social status based on that individual's espousals and actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor

Evaluate your parents I suppose. I had shit parents so I take the objectivist stance and since they are of no value to me, I shunned them.

As far as the other, I suppose that if God is all knowing and you aren't He would probably be more aware of when certain things "should" happen in order for the outcome to be most in line with His priorities, since you don't know everything, including His "plan" it seems to reason He would be the one better at making the decisions.

My fever is now at 103.....ignore the incoherentness.

As far as the second question goes, the expression is somewhat misleading. God does not work on "His own time" or anyone else's. God is unbounded by time, He exists in the eternal now. God's work within the world by necessity proceeds according to the flow of time. However, due to God's omniscience, He naturally knows more about the way things ought to proceed, how they will yield the best results, rather than we, who have only limited knowledge bounded by space and time, do.

Honour or honor (see spelling differences), (the latter directly from the Latin word honos, honoris) is the evaluation of a person's trustworthiness and social status based on that individual's espousals and actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor

Evaluate your parents I suppose. I had shit parents so I take the objectivist stance and since they are of no value to me, I shunned them.

As far as the other, I suppose that if God is all knowing and you aren't He would probably be more aware of when certain things "should" happen in order for the outcome to be most in line with His priorities, since you don't know everything, including His "plan" it seems to reason He would be the one better at making the decisions.

My fever is now at 103.....ignore the incoherentness.
Well, erm, these work too. *Iz jacked up on caffiene and has trouble conveying thoughts*

I thought the father and mother thing wasn't in the final version. It was replaced with not seething the kid in his mother's milk or some such.

However, due to God's omniscience, He naturally knows more about the way things ought to proceed, how they will yield the best results, rather than we, who have only limited knowledge bounded by space and time, do.Although, with a grasp of infinite view, he obviously would've come to ennui and nihilism. Unless you think he has limits to vision, which would mean by definition *not* being omniscient.
Anywho, then his personality takes over, being bloodthirsty and infantile, even having to have humans to intervene so his own evil doesn't take over.
*shrug*

*ignores trolls*

Although, with a grasp of infinite view, he obviously would've come to ennui and nihilism. Unless you think he has limits to vision, which would mean by definition *not* being omniscient.
Anywho, then his personality takes over, being bloodthirsty and infantile, even having to have humans to intervene so his own evil doesn't take over.
*shrug*

I'm curious, where did you find this?

I asked a priest about the "honor your parents" thing once upon a time. His response was kind of like the "salute the uniform" thing in the military. The officer may be a cretin, you may not respect him/her, he/she may have the brains god gave a rubber duck, that's ok, you respect the rank not the person who holds the rank. The same holds true for parents however abusive, stupid, neglectful, controlling or irrational they are, you respect their position as parents even if you can't respect them as people. I know it's not a good answer, but it's the best we've got.

As for the "God works on his own time" business, I always thought that was a rationalization for accepting the creation myth.

Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children?

No. Parental authority is conditional, not a matter of right.

What does it mean to honor your parents?

Well, first, we should be careful not to obsess too much over the precise meaning of "honor", which is just a translation.

Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

It doesn't mean to love them, because respect or honor is hardly the same thing as love, and by the context (it refers to parents) clearly some hierarchical sense is included: respect their authority, their position over you.

Nothing about it demands absolute obedience, though, not on the face of it anyway. Callous disobedience is probably out, but disobedience for the sake of adherence to higher moral principles is probably not.

My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

It's just you. The statement doesn't suggest laziness, it just emphasizes that what is important to individual humans and what is important to the deity may not be the same thing.

I'm curious, where did you find this?

My guess is somewhere between his anus and his colon.

It's just you. The statement doesn't suggest laziness, it just emphasizes that what is important to individuals humans and what is important to the deity may not be the same thing.
*Curses all of these people coming up with better answers them him, that still agree with his take on things.*

I'm curious, where did you find this?Slightly more specific, please? It could be one of my older, tired "arguments" if that's what you mean :p
If you like ....:
Choice means nothing without options. A being to judge choice must understand choice and consequence in this context, qualified by
http://bible.cc/acts/15-8.htm
...although, could be interpreted as everything *but* choice ...
And in knowing what options exist is sorta the idea of knowing "all"
omniscience:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:omniscience&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

My guess is somewhere between his anus and his colon.Obviously your judgment is clouded by your view. Something more thoughtful and less dogmatic might suit you better.
Not only in bearing false witness, you come across much the antinomian. Your nation name serves you justice.

Slightly more specific, please? It could be one of my older, tired "arguments" if that's what you mean :p
If you like ....:
Choice means nothing without options. A being to judge choice must understand choice and consequence in this context, qualified by
http://bible.cc/acts/15-8.htm
...although, could be interpreted as everything *but* choice ...
And in knowing what options exist is sorta the idea of knowing "all"
omniscience:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:omniscience&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

No, no, I mean the part about the infanticide and needed humans.

Dogma, when properly formulated, is the essence of thoughtfulness. It represents the transmission of God-given wisdom throughout the ages. Without the Dogma of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we descend into error and misinterpretation.
There is, however, little in this world less thoughtful than the militant atheist.

No, no, I mean the part about the infanticide and needed humans.I have to ask ... have you ever bothered to *read* the bible? Before i go off again, and task Mr./Mrs. Ostentatious there, whom also superciliously responded as above, i need to ask that.

I have to ask ... have you ever bothered to *read* the bible? Before i go off again, and task Mr./Mrs. Ostentatious there, whom also superciliously responded as above, i need to ask that.

I have, and regard much of the old testament as way-back-when propaganda, and Paul as a liar and a buffoon.

Dogma, when properly formulated, is the essence of thoughtfulness. It represents the transmission of God-given wisdom throughout the ages. Without the Dogma of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we descend into error and misinterpretation."Properly formulated" = false, untrue, political, contrived.
"One holy Catholic"? Hah. Greeks were there first. :p The catholic church is by all rights a bastard to it.

There is, however, little in this world less thoughtful than the militant atheist.
So sayeth the shepherd, so sayeth the flock.
I should be afraid that an institution that knows so little of the nature of the universe would be equally ignorant of the nature of the soul, including what remains of mine, eh? :)

I have, and regard much of the old testament as way-back-when propaganda, and Paul as a liar and a buffoon.Fair enough. I didn't want to assail you unfairly, like other people who fill in the blanks of their misappropriation with convenient, albeit myopic, catchphrases. As in, not you.
http://bible.cc/exodus/32-10.htm
http://bible.cc/exodus/32-11.htm
http://bible.cc/exodus/32-12.htm
http://bible.cc/exodus/32-14.htm

And some really good stuff here:
http://scripturetext.com/malachi/2-3.htm

"Properly formulated" = false, untrue, political, contrived.
"One holy Catholic"? Hah. Greeks were there first. :p The catholic church is by all rights a bastard to it.


I should be afraid that an institution that knows so little of the nature of the universe would be equally ignorant of the nature of the soul, including what remains of mine, eh? :)

The Greeks Christians were members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The Catholic Church has more wisdom invested in it than any nation or individual has ever accumulated. Through its Dogma, which you so ignorantly deride, it has passed on the truths and teachings Jesus Christ gave to His apostles, down through the ages through the Apostolic succession.

Rather than viewing God as some duplicitous creature capable of knowing everything we do before we do it, yet still insisting on punishing us for our evils... Rather than subjecting myself to the ridiculous idea that any being worthy of worship would subject us to Original Sin,

I would prefer to view God as a being who knows that although the concoction He has cooked up on Earth might look and smell nasty now, that eventually it'll be light and fluffy with a delicately exquisite flavor. I'd also like to think that He will know when to add the paprika. *nod*

Rather than viewing God as some duplicitous creature capable of knowing everything we do before we do it, yet still insisting on punishing us for our evils... Rather than subjecting myself to the ridiculous idea that any being worthy of worship would subject us to Original Sin,

I would prefer to view God as a being who knows that although the concoction He has cooked up on Earth might look and smell nasty now, that eventually it'll be light and fluffy with a delicately exquisite flavor. I'd also like to think that He will know when to add the paprika. *nod*

I like to think that he'll let us go through and watch our lives, and understand what we did to displease Him as punishment, then let us in to oh-so-light and fluffy heaven and allow us to do many things as of yet undiscovered.:wink:

I like to think that he'll let us go through and watch our lives, and understand what we did to displease Him as punishment, then let us in to oh-so-light and fluffy heaven and allow us to do many things as of yet undiscovered.:wink:

Any God I'd worship would allow us to learn from our mistakes. That's how wisdom develops.

It'd be nice to believe in a God who rewarded purely selfish behaviour and existed to provide for my own needs and wants, whatever their motives. There are lots of things we might like to believe. The desirablilty of a belief is no evidence for its truth. The Catholic Church, through its Dogma, has handed down from the Source itself the truth of how God actually is.

Rather than viewing God as some duplicitous creature capable of knowing everything we do before we do it, yet still insisting on punishing us for our evils... Rather than subjecting myself to the ridiculous idea that any being worthy of worship would subject us to Original Sin,

I would prefer to view God as a being who knows that although the concoction He has cooked up on Earth might look and smell nasty now, that eventually it'll be light and fluffy with a delicately exquisite flavor. I'd also like to think that He will know when to add the paprika. *nod*

Soooo, will he serve us with a nice chianti and some fava beans?

The Greeks Christians were members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.This reminds me of the baptism-by-proxy thing Ryadn brought up not very long ago, what with posthumously granting mormonism upon such notables as Hitler, Nietzsche, Genghis Khan, Freud, Stalin, and of course, Buddha.

The Catholic Church has more *$(&%@ invested in it than any nation or individual has ever accumulated.As in, Static Earth? By the way, part of your sentence didn't make it through the reality filter on my screen. Perhaps you're having better luck.
Through its Dogma, which you so *$#*$)^%*$@ derideFlipflop about ignorance.
Sticking feathers in your butt does NOT make you a chicken!
it has passed on the truths and teachings Jesus Christ gave to His apostles, down through the ages through the Apostolic succession.Ah, a cult that predicates itself on belief instead of proof. Gotcha. Hey, how did your church feel about the obvious lack of wisdom on Galileo's part? How much wisdom do you see on the part of your current spokesperson after his Hitler Youth past and helping to shelter known pederasts? Wisdom, huh?

Any God I'd worship would allow us to learn from our mistakes. That's how wisdom develops.

Wouldn't that be a little like what I said?

Soooo, will he serve us with a nice chianti and some fava beans?

Fftffftffftffftffftfft:tongue:

It'd be nice to believe in a God who rewarded purely selfish behaviour and existed to provide for my own needs and wants, whatever their motives. That's what made the iron maiden and Torquemada so popular, of course.
There are lots of things we might like to believe.Like, our laughable superiority complexes.
The desirablilty of a belief is no evidence for its truth.Yet, paradoxically, the church remains strong!
The Catholic Church, through its Dogma, has handed down from the Source itself the truth of how God actually is.So you capitalise "Source" itself to lend authority to your collective delusion, finishing with "how God actually is". You would've been skewered for such blasphemy at one point, depending upon what ethnocentricity you happened to be born into. Good thing that some things EVOLVE, huh?

Wouldn't that be a little like what I said?
No, it'd be a *lot* like what you said. :)

Ah yes, of course, one instance of error invalidates a whole belief structure.
And you atheists claim to be more rational than theists.

Pope Benedict XVI is not my spokesman, as I am not a Roman Catholic; I am an Anglican, an Anglo-Catholic. However, in defense of Benedict, I shall refer you to this (http://bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/topics/new_pope_defied_nazis.htm) article from The New York Times, a liberal rag you are no doubt familiar with. As far as sheltering known pederasts, have you any proof whatsoever that Benedict, as Pope and Archbishop of Rome or as Cardinal Ratzinger or at any point in his life ever in any way participated in such acts? Or are you, in fact, just an asshole making allegations without proof?

No, it'd be a *lot* like what you said. :)

Well, just wanted to make sure. In the bible it says there would be great gnashing of teeth. So, as I was thinking, wouldn't being shown your past mistakes and how idiotic they are get YOU to mash your teeth together? heck, when I think of some of my mistakes NOW i grind my teeth and slap myself. (Much to the amusement of any onlookers:D)

Soooo, will he serve us with a nice chianti and some fava beans?
So .... are we Paul Krendler, or the kid on the plane?

2. He knows what to do, and when to do it. You don't test the guy who literally knows everything.:tongue: Anyways, he works on his own time which means that you DON'T have pray extra hard or give him offerings. In reality, it's just outwardly accepting the he's the boss. At least, that's my take on the subject, I'm sure there's quite a few other opinions out here.I particularly like this quote by Kierkegaard on this subject:

“The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.”

Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

Of course abusive and neglectful parents qualify for parents who are to be honoured. Still, there is no strict definition of what "honouring parents" is.
So you can wriggle through it, as with any commandment, with some of what here in Italy we call "byzantinisms". Poor Moses didn't know anything about the power of sophism and dialectics.


God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

So, thou sayest that thou shalt bribe thy LORD, huh? Naughty, naughty... These things are better done than said, let someone who's got Berlusconi as PM tell you.

I particularly like this quote by Kierkegaard on this subject:

“The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.”

I think I like this guy.:wink:

Ah yes, of course, one instance of error invalidates a whole belief structure.So your church missed out on teaching you to count too, eh?

And you atheists claim to be more rational than theists.See, there is your woeful ignorance. You have no graceful stance other than appeal to a false authority. I tell you, to your visual implementation, i am NOT an "atheist". I simply am not anywhere near as uneducated and gullible as many of your church require people to be in order to survive. I do not accept its obvious bullshit. That may be uncomfortable for you, to the point of making wild, ignorant, and wistful assertions to my spiritual nature, as it obviously has, but i should expect no less from the approach of polarity and delusion that is so prevalent in so much of your church's nomenclature and political assertions.
Pity. Stay back a few centuries where you belong, some of us have shed our scabs and grew to new accomplishments.
from The New York Times, a liberal rag you are no doubt familiar with. Well, wounded, are we? Political, as i said. Dig deeper, expose more of your obvious bias against your earlier assertions of wisdom ... it certainly is wise to pursue, no?
As far as sheltering known pederasts, have you any proof whatsoever that Benedict, as Pope and Archbishop of Rome or as Cardinal Ratzinger or at any point in his life ever in any way participated in such acts?You found one article, how hard can it be to find other ones? Is it beyond you, or are you supposed to ignore any disparaging evidence of your church?
Or are you, in fact, just an asshole making allegations without proof?Turn the other cheek and find out, sweety. :)
As i did earlier to give you a better view. How's your memory? Specifically, your memory about allegations you yourself made, brought to your attention at least twice now?

It'd be nice to believe in a God who rewarded purely selfish behaviour and existed to provide for my own needs and wants, whatever their motives. There are lots of things we might like to believe. The desirablilty of a belief is no evidence for its truth. The Catholic Church, through its Dogma, has handed down from the Source itself the truth of how God actually is.

It would be nice to believe that the Catholic Church still has the approval and blessing of God.

However, reading it's history, one has to wonder. Here's one of my favorite little episodes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

Maybe not as bloody as the Inquisition or the ransacking of the New World, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of church drama, don't you think?

I think I like this guy.:wink:The poster, or Kierkegaard? It's an agreeable statement, to be sure.

Soooo, will he serve us with a nice chianti and some fava beans?

Maybe a nice white wine. :p

I think I like this guy.:wink:

Take your son, your only one, the one you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah and make me a sacrifice there.

Wouldn't that be a little like what I said?

A bit.

It would be nice to believe that the Catholic Church still has the approval and blessing of God.

However, reading it's history, one has to wonder. Here's one of my favorite little episodes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

Maybe not as bloody as the Inquisition or the ransacking of the New World, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of church drama, don't you think?
Or what about his comments about the intelligence of the Catholic Church?

Galileo: I think the Earth might revolve around the sun!
Pope So-and-so the Xth:*In a fatherly voice, as if humoring him* Oh have you know? *gives a amused nod*
Galileo: Really! Look at these calculations and charts!
Pop So-and-so the Xth: *reads and examines* LALALALALALALA-I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALALA-WITCHCRAFT!
Galileo: Fuck. There goes my career.
The poster, or Kierkegaard? It's an agreeable statement, to be sure.
Both.;)
]

No, no, I mean the part about the infanticide
Exodus 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

And more to the point of the OP:
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
Maybe that's more of a pederast thing, the last one.

It would be nice to believe that the Catholic Church still has the approval and blessing of God.

However, reading it's history, one has to wonder. Here's one of my favorite little episodes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod

Maybe not as bloody as the Inquisition or the ransacking of the New World, but it is certainly an entertaining bit of church drama, don't you think?
I have to agree. You always provide further fruit for thought, mon capitan.
The Cadaver Synod is generally presumed to have been politically motivated.
double- :eek:

Exodus 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

And more to the point of the OP:
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
Maybe that's more of a pederast thing, the last one.
Have you forgotton my comment about the old testament?

Dogma, when properly formulated, is the essence of thoughtfulness. It represents the transmission of God-given wisdom throughout the ages. Without the Dogma of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we descend into error and misinterpretation.
There is, however, little in this world less thoughtful than the militant atheist.

Little problem.
Who certifies a dogma as "properly formulated"? The Roman Apostolic Catholic Church itself.
So the RACC-belief becomes a logical axiomatic system, whose postulates are all internal - that is a recursive axiomatic system. Yes, even its first postulate, that is the truth of the Bible, is internal, because you've got to trust the RACC about it.
Because of Goedel's incompleteness theorem, the RACC fails as logical system, hence you can always find a logical fault somewhere.
Hence there are two choices:
1-abandon dogmatic-axiomatic faith systems as non-logical.
2-accept that this belief system cannot be justified logically, and avoid trying to debate it.

Little problem.
Who certifies a dogma as "properly formulated"? The Roman Apostolic Catholic Church itself.
So the RACC-belief becomes a logical axiomatic system, whose postulates are all internal - that is a recursive axiomatic system. Yes, even its first postulate, that is the truth of the Bible, is internal, because you've got to trust the RACC about it.
Because of Goedel's incompleteness theorem, the RACC fails as logical system, hence you can always find a logical fault somewhere.
Hence there are two choices:
1-abandon dogmatic-axiomatic faith systems as non-logical.
2-accept that this belief system cannot be justified logically, and avoid trying to debate it.

Ah, yes. The problem with following any sect blindly. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Have you forgotton my comment about the old testament?
Ah, i gotcha. I went the literal route, and didn't take your statement in the proper regard. :)

1. Exodus is a bunch of propaganda made all because of an Israelite slave decided he wanted a position of power and needed justification for doing so, and so made up the book of Exodus. Well, to be fair, some of it is history.To be fair, i had started in consideration of Mr./Mrs. Ostentatious instead of where you were coming from.

To be fair, i had started in consideration of Mr./Mrs. Ostentatious instead of where you were coming from.
Ah. Makes sense.

Little problem.
Who certifies a dogma as "properly formulated"? The Roman Apostolic Catholic Church itself.
So the RACC-belief becomes a logical axiomatic system, whose postulates are all internal - that is a recursive axiomatic system. Yes, even its first postulate, that is the truth of the Bible, is internal, because you've got to trust the RACC about it.
Because of Goedel's incompleteness theorem, the RACC fails as logical system, hence you can always find a logical fault somewhere. True, that.

Hence there are two choices:
1-abandon dogmatic-axiomatic faith systems as non-logical.
2-accept that this belief system cannot be justified logically, and avoid trying to debate it.The first one won't be as easy as the second one, by default *squints around for Mr./Mrs. Ostentatious*

“The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays.”

So, what does God do if we're responsible for our actions, etc?

So, what does God do if we're responsible for our actions, etc?

Decides. Messes around. Does whatever an all-powerful all-knowing being would do. That sort of thing.

So, what does God do if we're responsible for our actions, etc?
Other than something sulfur- or hemae-oriented?

So, what does God do if we're responsible for our actions, etc?

Becomes redundant.

Becomes redundant.Not that the kai were ever representative of such a thing, as a warning :p

Jehovah says everyone should honor their parents, then he pulls a 180 and denies that he even HAS parents...

Ah, yes. The problem with following any sect blindly. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

We could expand this to "following ANYTHING blindly", just to avoid the usual complaints about evil atheists bashing the poor christians. ;)

Take your son, your only one, the one you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah and make me a sacrifice there.To be honest I find the a-rational (I don't think it is irrational since rationality has nothing to do with it) faith of Kierkegaard far more believable than anything based on evidence. Unfortunately, most people do a sort of mixup between the two - evidence and faith. This makes them believe without evidence and yet still point to the (rather small amount of) evidence as justification for their belief - even when such evidence clearly served little to no part in making them believe in the first place...

LOL

I suppose it depends on your own interpretation of what the important words in that commandment is ie Honour, Father, Mother.

The second two are now open to interpretation in a way that they wouldn't have been at the time of Exodus being written. Father can mean step-father, your biological father, an older man that acts LIKE a father to you, your grand father, ect. and mother is the female version of all of those. It depends who you think is your true father and mother, if your father is a drug dealing thug that left your mother when you were not even born and has taken no interest in your up bringing but your mother has married a very nice respectable man that treats you as his own son or daughter then your biological father isn't who you would consider your father and therefore I doubt you have to respect him in the same way.

then there is Honour, again open to interpretation, it could mean you just don't disrespect them, or could mean that you go to the lengths of never doing anything that would upset them, or it could mean that you just honour them in death and or old age or when they need you. (I always find it interesting that there is not a respect your children equivalent to go with this particular commandment but that's a different topic)

Basically because the bible is so old and most of it was written at a much more simplistic time society wise then I suppose you can interpret them whichever way you want.
Then again i'm not a Christian so I wouldn't know, but in my opinion surely if something is THAT vague everyone is right no matter how they interpret it (within reason of course)

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Who around here speaks latin?
<.<
>.>
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13879578&postcount=121

Who around here speaks latin?
<.<
>.>
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13879578&postcount=121

Well... the Romans... But... what have they ever done for us, eh?

Well... the Romans... But... what have they ever done for us, eh?
Romanes Eunt Domus?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso&feature=related

Romanes Eunt Domus?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso&feature=related

People called Romanes, they go the house?

:)

People called Romanes, they go the house?

:)She sometimes goes, yes.

She sometimes goes, yes.

Does she go? Eh? Know what I mean? Know what I mean?

Does she go? Eh? Know what I mean? Know what I mean?We don't have a camera. :(

Noticed the sigline, in accompaniment, no doubt? :)

Well, I think to honour someone is to respect them. To treat them well and love them. I don't think it would mean to obey them everytime, especially in adulthood, but definitely to listen to their view. As for abusive/neglectful parents, based on what I think honour is, then yeah I think they should be honoured too. Not because they are good people, not because they were good parents to you...but because when we're talking about the standards of God...its so much bigger than our own prejudices or emotions.
I actually left bible college, because it was upsetting my parents. I am a christian, they aren't. And I promise that they aren't up for any parenting awards. But they are my parents. And they did the best with what they had. And if nothing else, I owe myself the opportunity to be the bigger person.

As for God working in his time not ours....Have you read the bible lately? When people pray, God shows up. He is very accommodating. And He loves our prayers, and loves answering them.

Regarding the first one:

Honoring can take many different forms. If your parents are wicked (to use the Biblical terminology) it is your job to get them back on the straight and narrow.

Who around here speaks latin?
<.<
>.>
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13879578&postcount=121
Who watches the watchmen?

As for God working in his time not ours....Have you read the bible lately?Why? Did they retranslate it yet again, to make it more palatable? Like the LoLcat, Engrish, Klingon, BrickTestament and Jive versions, some sooner than others?

Why? Did they retranslate it yet again, to make it more palatable? Like the LoLcat, Engrish, Klingon, BrickTestament and Jive versions, some sooner than others?

And clearly the Lolcat Translation must be the indistupable word of God because it's The Bible. ;)

How about this one- why doesn't god heal amputees? People are always saying god healed someone- but never amputees. God hate amputees?

How about this one- why doesn't god heal amputees? People are always saying god healed someone- but never amputees. God hate amputees?

In truth, I've never seen an amputee healed. I'm sure its happened at some point, but I'd love to see it first hand. Actually, I will be pretty pissy with God if I go through my whole life and never see anything like that.

Why? Did they retranslate it yet again, to make it more palatable? Like the LoLcat, Engrish, Klingon, BrickTestament and Jive versions, some sooner than others?

Wow, you're on fire. :) But why should an infinitely powerful God work to the schedule of man? Seriously, what have we done thats so good which deserves his attention. I can't think of anything which would really impress Him. But if you read the bible, the prayers of men actually move God to work things out when we need them. Full of stories where God intervened.

Who watches the watchmen?

I will. Can't wait. Best ad since "Golden Army".

Ok, so I have two religious questions that I want to get the opinion of NSG on.

One of the Ten Commandments is this:



Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

Does anyone else get this impression from the whole "God works in his time, not our" expression?

Greetings,

I plan to deal with the second question you raised. My understanding is that the bible says God knows what is going to happen. Whether it is because he can time travel or he is so powerful that he can just control and understand everything I am unsure.

If he can understand things we cannot however or if he can see the end of time, then he deems certain events we go through necessary for our growth and understanding and that they might better us (or possibly we choose this route and are to blind to see it). Again, I can think of numerous specific examples where someone will rip me on the previous viewpoint (death of a loved one, illness) however we have to realize that we live in a sinful world. That was not God's plan but our choice (a choice he allowed to exist some will no doubt point out). We choose this path however. Sometimes that alone explains why we go through the crap we do, sometimes it doesn't (or sometimes we refuse to see it). My understanding of God working in his own time though is him telling us to wait, for reasons that we may or may not understand.

Cheers, Eagle Scream

Ok, so I have two religious questions that I want to get the opinion of NSG on.

One of the Ten Commandments is this:



Now this is all good advice if the parents are decent parents, but what about those who are abusive and/or neglectful? Do they really deserve to be honored by their children? What does it mean to honor your parents? Does it mean to obey their every whim, to love them, what does honor mean?

NOTE: I'm not a Christian, but here's my take.

I believe in honoring my parents. I know this is largely due to the fact that my parents are, in my eyes, worthy of honor. I honor my parents because they cared for me, they sacrificed for me, and they helped me grow. If my parents had not done these things, I would not honor them.

This does not mean I'd hate them, necessarily, or that I would be rude to them. For instance, if I found out tomorrow that I'm adopted, I wouldn't "honor" my birth parents the way I honor my real parents, because my birth parents would be strangers to me. I would respect them in the way I respect anybody else, but I would not honor them as my parents because they did not parent me.

Honor, to me, means that I not only respect my parents as the people they are, but I also give their advice and wishes special weight in my life. I do not blindly obey my parents. I disagree with them at times. I would not do something I believed was wrong simply to make my parents happy. However, when I make important life decisions I do consider my parents' opinions and feelings. I know that my choices do reflect on them to a certain extent. I know that my choices in life impact them emotionally. I care about them and want to be a credit to them, and I also want to make them happy. I try to repay all their efforts in bringing me up, by being the best person I can be.



My second one is from the fact that the Bible basically says that God work in his own time, not ours. Is it me or does this make God look like a lazy bastard? Because it gives the impression that God is just lazy and can't be bothered unless we pray extra hard or annoy him with prayers and offering.

Does anyone else get this impression from the whole "God works in his time, not our" expression?
Yeah, this one always kind of felt odd to me. But I'm not a God-believer so I can't really give a useful answer.

I will. Can't wait. Best ad since "Golden Army".

Blech. I meant the actual meaning of that phrase. Rorschach was the only good part of that comic.

Blech. I meant the actual meaning of that phrase.


Yah, I know... :p

Rorschach was the only good part of that comic.

Noooo, so many good aspects - not least the iconoclastic pallette... but yes, Rorshach was arguably the high point. :)

Answer to #1) The Commandment to honor your parents is superseded by the command to honor God. Thus, if your parents commit wrongdoing, then by following their example, you are not honoring God. Furthermore, what is the nature of "honoring" someone? Would doing wrong in any way shape or form honor them?

Answer to #2) The concept of God working in His own time has to do with the concept of power, not of will. C.S. Lewis put it this way: draw and arrow on a piece of paper. Label the arrow "time." Everything outside that arrow is a place that God can operate. (This is not to say that God does not operate within time, which He does, it is an imperfect metaphor) God is not confined by the confines of the laws of time.

I hope that answers your questions, Wilgrove.

I'm pretty certain God knows exactly when to add the paprika...and that he already has LG.

Yeah, you're the Paprika.

In truth, I've never seen an amputee healed. I'm sure its happened at some point
Why? I'm quite sure it has never happened, because if it had, we would have heard about it. You on the other hand are "sure", because-- ?
Actually, I will be pretty pissy with God if I go through my whole life and never see anything like that.
...But why should an infinitely powerful God work to the schedule of man?
The irony!
But if you read the bible, the prayers of men actually move God to work things out when we need them. Full of stories where God intervened.
"Stories" is the operative word here.

Wow, you're on fire. :) You mean the flames, of course. :p

Seriously, what have we done thats so good which deserves his attention.Makes one ask why our devotion is so important, being so pitiful and all?

I'm pretty certain God knows exactly when to add the paprika...and that he already has LG.

Yeah, you're the Paprika.

:cool:

Licenterra;13883934']God is not confined by the confines of the laws of time.
I've noticed that the results of a war against a noun and the feasibility of a construct such as this particular god seem to be the same nature.