NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do you have your beliefs? Do you have them for selfish reasons, for moral reasons, because you had no other choice? Maybe a mix of at least two?

Discuss.

Because when something makes sense to me, I tend to believe it.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Once again, Ifreann wins the thread.

You have to explain to me how moral reasons are not inherently selfish.

I believe it cos its right, innit?

Once again, Ifreann wins the thread.

Woohoo!

Some are for selfish reason, some are for moral reasons.

I believe in my ideas because I am evil, and these maximize the amount of puppies I get to stomp, and Iraqi babies I get to eat

You have to explain to me how moral reasons are not inherently selfish.

Well biologically speaking DNA programs life to preserve it's own kind and to adapt in order to better suit it's environment. The survival of the race is DNA's imperative, not of the individual which is why many animals have innate programming to protect their you or their her/pack ect even if it means death. I bet the average human has such instincts as well. Ever hear of the story of the man whose child was playing on a railroad track when suddenly a train came? It goes something like this, the rails were set so that if the train continued it'd go off a ravine and everyone on the train would die, however if he switched the track the people would no go off a ravine and live however with few seconds left he would be unable to retrieve his son. He sacrificed his son so others can live. The alternative would have been selfish. Moral reasons serve the welfare of everyone or others in while selfish ones only serve oneself and his/her interests.

Because my views are the right ones, obviously...

I don't believe much, I generally assume.
For example, I assume that earth's gravity will remain pretty well constant throughout my life, but if not, I'll deal with it then.
This goes for pretty much anything in my life: I don't know much, I don't believe much, I just assume a lot. ;)

I believe in my ideas because I am evil, and these maximize the amount of puppies I get to stomp, and Iraqi babies I get to eat

^this^

Moral. As best I can manage, anyway.

You have to explain to me how moral reasons are not inherently selfish.

"I support this policy because it benefits me."

"I support this policy because it's the right thing to do.

Hardly equivalent.

I don't believe. There is no reason to.

Hm. That's what I was gonna say.

I don't believe.

There's stuff I know, and there's stuff I don't.

I should stop before this becomes a known knowns and known unknowns thing, but, eh...

Hopefully nobody will try too hard to test my commitment to these assertions.

I'll add that there may be things that I suspect, things for which I hope, and maybe things that I doubt.

Ever hear of the story of the man whose child was playing on a railroad track when suddenly a train came? It goes something like this, the rails were set so that if the train continued it'd go off a ravine and everyone on the train would die, however if he switched the track the people would no go off a ravine and live however with few seconds left he would be unable to retrieve his son. He sacrificed his son so others can live. The alternative would have been selfish. Moral reasons serve the welfare of everyone or others in while selfish ones only serve oneself and his/her interests.

This isn't a story, you just rewrote a very well known moral dilemma.

Well biologically speaking DNA programs life to preserve it's own kind and to adapt in order to better suit it's environment. The survival of the race is DNA's imperative, not of the individual which is why many animals have innate programming to protect their you or their her/pack ect even if it means death. I bet the average human has such instincts as well. Ever hear of the story of the man whose child was playing on a railroad track when suddenly a train came? It goes something like this, the rails were set so that if the train continued it'd go off a ravine and everyone on the train would die, however if he switched the track the people would no go off a ravine and live however with few seconds left he would be unable to retrieve his son. He sacrificed his son so others can live. The alternative would have been selfish.

So if moral is define by group mentality, then many moralistic views today needs to be thrown out of the window, don't you think? Would that make Confucianism very moral compare to Capitalism?

I don't believe. There is no reason to.

:rolleyes:

Why do you have your beliefs? Do you have them for selfish reasons, for moral reasons, because you had no other choice? Maybe a mix of at least two?

Discuss.
Could you be more specific? (i.e. why do I believe what I believe about what?)

I believe lots of different things, and not all for the same reasons. In many cases I'm compelled to believe certain things because there's an overwhelming weight of evidence to back them up... I suppose that might fit the "no choice" option. :)

I believe what I do because God led me to it. Given that He knows more about... well everything... than I do, I followed His lead ;)

I don't see how you can believe something for a "moral" reason or a "selfish" reason. You believe something because you think it's true, don't you?

I believe what I do because God led me to it. Given that He knows more about... well everything... than I do, I followed His lead ;)

Is the wink because this is entirely circular and self-fulfilling?

I don't believe much, I generally assume.
For example, I assume that earth's gravity will remain pretty well constant throughout my life, but if not, I'll deal with it then.
This goes for pretty much anything in my life: I don't know much, I don't believe much, I just assume a lot. ;)

This ^^

Absolutely.

I'm a pragmatist.

Is the wink because this is entirely circular and self-fulfilling?

uh, yeah, sure... :rolleyes:

uh, yeah, sure... :rolleyes:

I hope that's a yes.

"I believe because my beliefs say that I should believe my beliefs" would be a bit much to take without at least a quirked eyebrow.

I hope that's a yes.

"I believe because my beliefs say that I should believe my beliefs" would be a bit much to take without at least a quirked eyebrow.

Which, had I said that, I'd agree.

Hm. That's what I was gonna say.

I don't believe.

There's stuff I know, and there's stuff I don't.

I should stop before this becomes a known knowns and known unknowns thing, but, eh...

Hopefully nobody will try too hard to test my commitment to these assertions.

I'll add that there may be things that I suspect, things for which I hope, and maybe things that I doubt.
I like this. I'm gonna go with this instead.

Which, had I said that, I'd agree.
But effectively that IS what you said. You believe that your beliefs are "what God told you", because that is the God that you believe in.

But effectively that IS what you said. You believe that your beliefs are "what God told you", because that is the God that you believe in.

Well sure, if you want to be shallow about it.

Please tell me you don't really think it that simple...

Which, had I said that, I'd agree.

Maybe I'm misreading you?

You said: "I believe what I do because God led me to it. Given that He knows more about... well everything... than I do, I followed His lead ".

One assumes that your religion comes under the bracket of 'your beliefs'?

One further assumes that, by 'God', you mean the object of your belief?

So, let's break it down into symbols:

(my belief) because (the object of my belief). (Value of (the object of my belief)), thus (my belief)

Or "I believe because my beliefs say that I should believe my beliefs".

No?

Which, had I said that, I'd agree.

1) I was led to my beliefs by God.
2) I believe God exists.

If the above statements are true, then:

3) I was led to my beliefs by a belief.

But effectively that IS what you said. You believe that your beliefs are "what God told you", because that is the God that you believe in.

This ^^

Well sure, if you want to be shallow about it.

Please tell me you don't really think it that simple...I really think it's that simple.

God told me that Joe Smith was a con-man and that the Book of Mormon is the most transparently bogus piece of writing ever called "scripture" by anybody. Now why would God tell me and you such opposite things, hmmm?

Maybe I'm misreading you?

You said: "I believe what I do because God led me to it. Given that He knows more about... well everything... than I do, I followed His lead ".

One assumes that your religion comes under the bracket of 'your beliefs'?

One further assumes that, by 'God', you mean the object of your belief?

So, let's break it down into symbols:

(my belief) because (the object of my belief). (Value of (the object of my belief)), thus (my belief)

Or "I believe because my beliefs say that I should believe my beliefs".

No?

Meh. I'm not gonna jump through your hoops, GnI. I've learned from experience that trying to discuss something like this with you is like trying to mix cake batter with a toothpick. An enormous amount of energy expended for no significant result.

I really think it's that simple.

God told me that Joe Smith was a con-man and that the Book of Mormon is the most transparently bogus piece of writing ever called "scripture" by anybody. Now why would God tell me and you such opposite things, hmmm?

Think what you want. If I were interested in elaborating I would have. As it is, I put it in very simplistic terms to answer the OP. If you don't like that, I'm sure not gonna make it my problem.

Cheers.

Think what you want.
I will, thank you. And so will you. And you will what you think "WHAT GOD TOLD ME", because that is what you believe. And why do you believe that? You believe it because you believe it.

Meh. I'm not gonna jump through your hoops, GnI. I've learned from experience that trying to discuss something like this with you is like trying to mix cake batter with a toothpick. An enormous amount of energy expended for no significant result.

"Yes, it DOES look kind of like that, doesn't it? When you actually look at it in purely logical terms. Thanks for pointing it out, and giving me the opportunity to show how that illusion is deceptive"...

Or, you know... something insulting about batter.

Either works.

I believe most of my choices are made because I think they are moral choices. My parents taught me their beliefs of what is right from wrong, but they also taught me to think for myself. For instance my stand on capital punishment differs from either parent.

I believe what I believe because I want to.

It's the same reason I do all the voluntary (as opposed to mandatory) stuff in my life. It's basically the bedrock reason for doing anything/everything. When you strip/argue away all other considerations, "because I want to" remains as an immovable, unassailable, unavoidable foundation. Since I like to keep things simple, I tend to skip all the other blather and go right to it.

"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and I'm not sure about the former" -Albert Einstein.

There's a third thing that's infinite: The imagination. I'd prefer to associate it with the first than with the second and in order to do so, God has to be the meat in my infinity sandwich. *nod*

I believe what I believe for a huge amount of reasons.

Some beliefs I hold because I've been taught them, some beliefs because I think they are morally correct. Some beliefs I hold because I've seen evidence for them, some because I've reasoned them out. Some beliefs are simply educated guesses.

Most beliefs I hold, however, I hardly ever think about; they are subconsciously believed, most of the time. Beliefs such as, "I am sitting in a chair", "I am in Glasgow" we don't usually contemplate. These are innumerable.

I don't believe. There is no reason to.

:rolleyes:

Come off it Fass I know (or at least believe), that you believe in something. That gay marriage is a basic human right, perhaps?

To the general posters of this thread: It's funny how this quickly turned into a discussion on God, despite the fact that many people believe in various topics that has nothing to do with God, such as some may believe that Coca-Cola tastes better than Pepsi (It does by the way) or that Free Trade should be the top of every governments agenda or some people also believe that Tibet should be a free and independent country under its own rule without the influence of Peking.

Purely selfish reasons really. I believe what I believe because it benefits me and makes me feel better.

Observation and rational thought on the one side, combined with me trying to be happy on the other.

Basically, the few things I believe in without tangible evidence are things I've observed to make me happy, either directly or indirectly (as in, it makes me happy to make others happy).

I believe to help keep me sane, mostly.

Because what I believe makes sense to me.

People here make the mistake of taking an individualist bourgeois views on 'beliefs' and 'ideas'. Social class forms the basis of all ideas.

People here are fooling themselves into thinking their 'beliefs' are 'individual', 'unique' or even 'profound', they are attached to having ideas for the sake of it, like a fetish.

Unfortunately some very naive individuals on NSG have been infected by the disease of bourgeois idealism coupled with their ignorance of reality.

ignorance of reality.

Because you never ignore reality, do you?

Because you never ignore reality, do you?
Only a Marxist can properly analysis reality and real conditions in a materialistic way, all other methods are infected by bourgeois idealism.

Only a Marxist can properly analysis reality and real conditions in a materialistic way, all other methods are infected by bourgeois idealism.

You egotistical moron. What about a Stalinist or Leninist? Or even Trotskyist?

You egotistical moron. What about a Stalinist or Leninist? Or even Trotskyist?

Trotskyism is a bourgeois ideology.

Says who?

Only a Marxist can properly analysis reality and real conditions in a materialistic way, all other methods are infected by bourgeois idealism.

No Marxist on earth, not even Marx himself, would believe in this narcissistic crap.

Hmmm, I don't think it's actually necessary to separate selfish from moral reasons...

Hence I vote 'other'.

Could you be more specific? (i.e. why do I believe what I believe about what?)

I believe lots of different things, and not all for the same reasons. In many cases I'm compelled to believe certain things because there's an overwhelming weight of evidence to back them up... I suppose that might fit the "no choice" option. :)

What are your main key beliefs about life? What are you willing to: die, crusade, fight for and defend?

What are your main key beliefs about life? What are you willing to: die, crusade, fight for and defend?
Ahh, okay then.

I'm not sure who would make it onto a list of people that I was prepared to "die, crusade, fight for and defend?". Family and close friends, I suppose, but it might extend to other people who shared my beliefs. I like to think that I'd fight to protect myself from any entity that attempted to cooerce me to follow its belief system instead of my own, but I'd be fighting for me and mine and not for any artificial construct like a country or a political party. That would qualify as 'selfish', I'm sure.

On morality and interacting with other people, I take the "it's nice to be nice" tack, and the overriding morality in my life is basically the golden rule of "do unto others..." etc. I'm not entirely sure why I believe that it's the 'right' way for me to live my life, but it's what I try to base everything on.

I'm completely non-religious, so I certainly don't draw it from any kind of continuing belief in a deity, and I therefore have no reason to behave in any particular way in order to get a comfortable berth in an afterlife. However, my parents were fairly religious and I attended Church and Sunday School/Bible Class until I was 15 years old so it's possible that those values were imprinted on me as a result of my direct exposure to the tenets of the Christian faith. I like to think that I'd have the same way of doing things regardless, but I have no way of knowing if that's true. Perhaps when my own children are old enough I'll be able to give a better answer.

I guess that means that I believe in the golden rule approach because it seems, to me, to be the 'most moral' way to go about my life.

Regarding the world around me I take a completely scientific approach. I accept scientific explanations for phenomena if the evidence suggests that they are correct (and it always does, since that's the very definition of a scientific explanation), and I seem to have no problem abandoning previously held beliefs when new evidence contradicts older interpretations.

In this aspect, then, I'll go with the 'no other choice' option, since there are things that I believe that are based on externally-provided evidence over which I have no control.

So that's a possible tick for 'selfish', one tick for 'moral' and one tick for 'no other choice'... I'll go with 'Other' on the poll :)

i believe what i believe because i was wandering around out in the woods half starved, not because i was lost, but because i didn't have anyplace else to be, and it gave me great hugs and fallowed me home, it's home actually, which wasn't any kind of what most nonindiginous people would call any kind of 'church' or anything.

that and observing, you know, you system analyze society as a black box and you can sort of figure out a number of things, and then there's a big universe out there, big enough to never know the half of.

and it isn't just 'human' society i'm talking about. human society is so incredably narcisstic as a species, totally unrealistic about what it imagines itself to be in relation to anything but itself, even on its one little dustball, which even that is so much grander then itself, but most people can't or don't see that, never even imagining to look beyond it, even in thier beliefs.

i guess it helped that i grew up in the woods, not quite raised by shape chainging critters or anything, except maybe spiritually, but i grew up looking beyond and seeing not outward from some imagened center, but from infinite spaces outside and surrounding from outside that space that most people of most beliefs and most nonbeliefs seem to think is the only place they can look FROM.

=^^=
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