NationStates Jolt Archive

Sunbathers ignore drowned girls' bodies (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24058690-401,00.html)
ITALIAN society has been rocked by photos showing sunbathers relaxing on a beach next to the bodies of two drowned girls.

CNN reports (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/21/italy.drowning/index.html) the two girls, Violetta, 12, and Cristina, 13, had been swimming with two friends at Torregaveta beach, west of Naples, on Saturday when they got into trouble.

Photographs published around the world show their bodies laid out on the beach under towels while sunbathers sit close by.

The photographer told CNN the mood among sunbathers was one of indifference towards the girls, who were Roma gypsies - a disliked minority in Italy.
Yep, this may be one of those apathy threads again. In the CNN report (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/21/italy.drowning/index.html):
A photographer who took photos at the scene told CNN the mood among sunbathers had been one of indifference.
...
Corriere della Sera said that a crowd of curious onlookers that had formed around the bodies quickly dispersed.
I myself is unsure of what to do when put in this situation. Of course, I would have some sympathy for the victims, but then you couldn't expect me to stop having lunch (It may seem kinda icky eating and hanging out with the dead, but with me having gone through a year dissecting cadavers, it all seems perfectly okay to me.), or cry inconsolably because there are dead bodies on the beach. Most likely I will be shocked and/or maintain a respectful distance from the bodies... The reactions of the people there are being criticized... so I'm wondering, what should be the appropriate reaction?

So, NSGers, what would you do when faced with this situation? Do you think the beachgoers did something wrong? Do you think Brutland and Norden should be drowned too? If yes, where?

Also, IMHO what the authorities should have done is to cordon off the area, or better yet, not leave the bodies lying just there.

Well, when a lion gets his buffalo, the others usually crowd around and comiserate. Lions that is. The buffalo just sort of go back to grazing.
I can't really speak for Italians, but if Posidon wasn't hungry anymore, maybe they felt safe enough to go back to their photosynthesis.

That's insane.

Well, when a lion gets his buffalo, the others usually crowd around and comiserate. Lions that is. The buffalo just sort of go back to grazing.
I can't really speak for Italians, but if Posidon wasn't hungry anymore, maybe they felt safe enough to go back to their photosynthesis.
I did mean the OP, but, hey...

That's insane.

It doesn't surprise me. I'm so used to hearing news about sick people that shit like this only makes me groan, it doesn't make me rant and rave about violent revolution like it did a few years ago.

The bodies should have been cordoned off or removed. I don't know how people could sunbathe so close to dead bodies. I would have been to disturbed by it all and left the area.

That's pretty messed up.

Silly Italians!

That's just fucking wrong. What the hell is wrong with these people? Seriously, what kind of thoughtless human being doesn't try and get the bodies removed? Not just because the bodies will begin to decay in the heat of the sun but for the dignity of the dead and for the sake of the families who will be no doubt lamenting the loss of their young members.

No matter what the onlookers think, these two girls are still someone else's sister, daughter, granddaughter, friend...

The people who didn't get someone from the emergency department to deal with the bodies in a timely and respectable fashion should have stopped to think and realised that these two girls meant something to those who loved and cared for them.

Racism strikes again?

That's just fucking wrong. What the hell is wrong with these people? Seriously, what kind of thoughtless human being doesn't try and get the bodies removed? Not just because the bodies will begin to decay in the heat of the sun but for the dignity of the dead and for the sake of the families who will be no doubt lamenting the loss of their young members.

No matter what the onlookers think, these two girls are still someone else's sister, daughter, granddaughter, friend...

The people who didn't get someone from the emergency department to deal with the bodies in a timely and respectable fashion should have stopped to think and realised that these two girls meant something to those who loved and cared for them.
The emergency departments were already dealing with them, at least in the pictures I saw. What exactly were the other people supposed to do besides stay out of the way?

I don't think this is a case of racism. I'm imagining the single person I like the least. I'd still want to put distance between myself and their dead body.

The emergency departments were already dealing with them, at least in the pictures I saw. What exactly were the other people supposed to do besides stay out of the way?

I don't know but doesn't an hour seem like a long time to remove dead bodies?

And sitting so close seems... ew!

Did these people realise they were dead? They might think they're sleeping under the towel or something... in any case, it would seem impossible to recognise their feet as gypsies, as the news would suggest.

Both points are valid only if these people haven't seen somebody placing the girls unter the towels, of course.

Objectivism in action.

eh. I say everyone is a little to blame. The police should have blocked off the area until the bodies were gone, but at the same time, the sunbathers could have been a little more respectful, but it's not that big a deal.

what is the proper response when someone drowns at the beach?

im at a loss.

is it expected that everyone there should go home? is there a proper distance that one is expected to sit away from the bodies? is it disrespectful to eat lunch when there is a dead body on the beach awaiting pickup by the morgue?

i cant imagine anyone thinking "oh its just some fucking gypsy kid" and sitting down nearby to have lunch. it doesnt ring true to me.

Just to make everybody feel more optimistic about the human race:
Bystanders help man after wind scatters his cash (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_re_us/money_flies)

Just to make everybody feel more optimistic about the human race:
Bystanders help man after wind scatters his cash (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080722/ap_on_re_us/money_flies)

Lies! All lies!:D

To the OP:

Sick, and disgusting. Or photoshopped.

Shoot, wouldn't the corpses be a little...ripe...sitting in the sun? If anything, the smell alone is reason enough to duck out of there.

I sometimes wonder why we insist on showing more respect to the dead than we do to those same people while they're alive (when the respect would actually benefit them).

Obviously, it's awful that people died, but I don't see much of a Kitty Genovese case here, even if they were Roma.

what is the proper response when someone drowns at the beach?

wailing and gnashing of teeth, i think

whatever you do, don't lick your lips and light up the grill

Sunbathers ignore drowned girls' bodies (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24058690-401,00.html)

I myself is unsure of what to do when put in this situation. Of course, I would have some sympathy for the victims, but then you couldn't expect me to stop having lunch...

Conduct in that scerio I would think would be to express some sympathic emotion, a gasp, a somber expression, or the like. Then promtly gather your things, fold your beach towle, and quickly move to a new location on the beach. Leaving room for any griving family and/or friends to gather.

You would have seen me, rushing to get *my* camera. That way I could take pictures of the other onlookers and be all self-righteously indignant about how their reactions were failing to meet my standards.

While the sunbathers displayed a remarkable lack of empathy, I think it's important to point out that the photographer took pictures of the dead girls and their dead feet were posted on the CNN website.

I don't really think it was necessary to post the photo.

This is a sick situation. I hope these people feel a bit ashamed at going about like nothing happened. I personally would have left the area. Seeing how these are Romas and the Italians racism towards them and anyone else not Italian I can't help to think this is why they stuck around.

While the sunbathers displayed a remarkable lack of empathy, I think it's important to point out that the photographer took pictures of the dead girls and their dead feet were posted on the CNN website.

I don't really think it was necessary to post the photo.

There are pictures of dead all the time on the net. Sometimes it is needed to document inhumanity so that we all can see.

I also wonder if these girls were thrown in the ocean as it has been suggested. Apparently they couldn't swim in the first place. I hope this isn't foul play.

wailing and gnashing of teeth, i think

whatever you do, don't lick your lips and light up the grill


Or pose near the bodies for pictures.

You would have seen me, rushing to get *my* camera. That way I could take pictures of the other onlookers and be all self-righteously indignant about how their reactions were failing to meet my standards.

How else are we to judge if not by "our" standards?

Shoot, wouldn't the corpses be a little...ripe...sitting in the sun? If anything, the smell alone is reason enough to duck out of there.

Remember this was near Naples. The stench of things rotting is an everyday thing.

I read several different articles about this last night, and what struck me more than the sunbathers eating lunch next to the bodies was the fact that no one stirred to try to help the girls or even call for help except the lifeguards. I'm not saying anyone should be expected to risk his/her life for a stranger, but you'd think at least the 10+ minute thrashing of drowning girls would get some people scrambling for rope or something.

i cant imagine anyone thinking "oh its just some fucking gypsy kid" and sitting down nearby to have lunch. it doesnt ring true to me.

Have you ever seen photos or footage of a lynching? As much as I wish it wasn't humanly possible to be so callous, it is.

Sick, and disgusting. Or photoshopped.

Sadly not.

Did these people realise they were dead? They might think they're sleeping under the towel or something... in any case, it would seem impossible to recognise their feet as gypsies, as the news would suggest.

Both points are valid only if these people haven't seen somebody placing the girls unter the towels, of course.
One of the things I thought about too... but who sunbathes with only the foot exposed? I really have no idea. *hates the sun*

i cant imagine anyone thinking "oh its just some fucking gypsy kid" and sitting down nearby to have lunch. it doesnt ring true to me.
Perhaps the story had been given a little color/meaning. The question is, if it is really true that they did not care just because the girls were Roma. We can never tell for sure unless we know how to read minds of the people who were there... we can only presume or theorize.

Shoot, wouldn't the corpses be a little...ripe...sitting in the sun? If anything, the smell alone is reason enough to duck out of there.
One hour baking in the sun postmortem, I think, is not that enough to cause a lot of stink. Putrefaction occurs can occur as early as nine hours postmortem, and that is if they died of bacterial infection. (It's the bacteria that causes the stink.)

Conduct in that scerio I would think would be to express some sympathic emotion, a gasp, a somber expression, or the like. Then promtly gather your things, fold your beach towle, and quickly move to a new location on the beach. Leaving room for any griving family and/or friends to gather.
The most likely thing I'll do. Sadly for the girls, there seemed to be no grievers on site. :(

what is the proper response when someone drowns at the beach?

im at a loss.

is it expected that everyone there should go home? is there a proper distance that one is expected to sit away from the bodies? is it disrespectful to eat lunch when there is a dead body on the beach awaiting pickup by the morgue?
This is what I'm wondering too. I don't understand why this ended up in the headlines - under the 'apathy' heading.

What were people supposed to do?

They were dead, what did you want them to do?

And how did their bodies get to shore and covered up?

What were people supposed to do?

Take photographs, I guess.

And how did their bodies get to shore and covered up?

Gypsy magic. *nods*

They were dead, what did you want them to do?

Cancel your plans for a fun day at the beach. Seeing someone die normally takes the fun out of things.

A homeless man tried to cross the street by crawling UNDER a semi and got predictably killed. I was at a pub having supper with friends in front of where this happened. What are you supposed to do? I didn't sit and stare and find some horrid fascination with his sad death...but I wasn't going to move on somewhere else just because of it.

This is what I'm wondering too. I don't understand why this ended up in the headlines - under the 'apathy' heading.

What were people supposed to do?

i put the question to my sister with out any of the attending detail.

she thought that dead bodies would have ruined her enjoyment of the beach and that she would have left, gone home, gone to a different beach, done something else.

i cant imagine that racism could have anything to do with tolerance of dead bodies. it doesnt seem right to me. our dislike of being around the dead (the impersonal dead) isnt associated with whether or not we would have associated with the live person they used to be. the dead body of a member of a group i hate and the dead body of a member of a group i love are both dead bodies. im not having a picnic near any of them.

that these people chose to go on with their day knowing that the bodies of these poor girls were going to be removed at any moment.....well it says to me that they had decided to enjoy their day no matter what not that they were indifferent to dead bodies because of who they used to be.

People drive by car accident fatalities all the time. Is that indifference based on some sort of hatred associated with the vehicles involved?

Take photographs, I guess.
That's what I'd be doing. *nod*
Gypsy magic. *nods*
Totally.
Cancel your plans for a fun day at the beach. Seeing someone die normally takes the fun out of things.

How do you even know that those two in the background knew what was going on? I mean, if anything was actually going on.. I, for one, wouldn't think "Oh hey they're dead, when does the Good Humor man come back? I'll buy them a treat!" Although, mmm, ice cream.

And how did their bodies get to shore and covered up?

There were lifeguards and/or authorities on the scene.

How do you even know that those two in the background knew what was going on? I mean, if anything was actually going on.. I, for one, wouldn't think "Oh hey they're dead, when does the Good Humor man come back? I'll buy them a treat!" Although, mmm, ice cream. Because the life guard had pulled them out of the water less than an hour ago. And the witnesses who said that people got back to what they were doing before.

Because the life guard had pulled them out of the water less than an hour ago. And the witnesses who said that people got back to what they were doing before.

Really no point to do anything further than that now is there?

People drive by car accident fatalities all the time. Is that indifference based on some sort of hatred associated with the vehicles involved?
Only if they're SUV's

Really no point to do anything further than that now is there?

Well no theres not. It wasn't that they werent doing anything to help. It was that they didn't seem to be feeling anything. There were dead bodies under towels in plain sight and they didn't seem bothered by it at all. Most people would be kind of uncomfortable rather than relaxed.

No surprise here:

A picture of two drowned Roma girls lying amid sunbathers on an Italian beach — which sparked a wave of criticism against Italy — did not tell the whole story, the photographer said on Friday.

The photo — published in several European newspapers — showed Italians sunbathing, talking on cellphones and apparently ignoring the nearby corpses, which were partially covered by beach towels with their feet poking out.

"I took several pictures — some showed holidaymakers going about their business, on others people were visibly concerned, or were helping to carry the coffins," Alessandro Garofalo told AFP.

Garofalo (30) — who works for the Naples daily Il Mattino — added: "On the photographs which the foreign newspapers picked out, everybody seemed indifferent.

"But in reality, only about half the people present acted as if nothing had happened, but many people either lent a hand or left the beach after the incident."

He added that his use of a telephoto lens made the sunbathers on the beach at Torregavata north of Naples look closer to the bodies than they in fact were.

...

But Garofalo said "several holidaymakers jumped into the water to try to save the two girls, who did not know how to swim", and then covered the bodies as they lay on the beach for about an hour until coffins were brought in.
http://news.iafrica.com/worldnews/1047240.htm

No surprise here:


http://news.iafrica.com/worldnews/1047240.htm

I hate sensationalist journalism.

They weren't that close to them. The police should have removed them though.

Wouldn't bother me at all. I might even start a conversation with them..

... But then I wonder why I'm at the beach in the first place.