NationStates Jolt Archive

You are from Australia mate, you know there is no such thing in this country.

That is because you are so brainwashed to it that you don't even notice.

That is because you are so brainwashed to it that you don't even notice.

No it is because I went to schools which had a distinct left wing bias from many teachers.

Are you every going to tell me what category I belong in?

You live in Sydney right?

No it is because I went to schools which had a distinct left wing bias from many teachers.


Left-wing/Right-wing = bourgeois

Both 'left' and 'right' are both part of the same bourgeois political system. The only difference is that the 'left' are desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.

This thread makes me miss DHomme.

Left-wing/Right-wing = bourgeois

Both 'left' and 'right' are both part of the same bourgeois political system. The only difference is that the 'left' are desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.

Yeah that damn teacher who was praising the fundamental ideas of Marx and Engels was just a part of the bourgeois.

By that logic then so are you.

There is one thing good about you AP and that is that you give me a good laugh. One bad thing about you is that you never answer my questions.

snip

I believe I already dealt with this in my 'Defense of Capitalism' thread I made earlier. Libertarian/conservative weirdos like you must convince yourself that capitalism is constantly under siege and attack by 'socialists' and 'leftists' in the educational system etc, thus the constant 'blathering' about 'culture wars' etc.

Capitalism needs to make enemies.

Yeah that damn teacher who was praising the fundamental ideas of Marx and Engels was just a part of the bourgeois.

By that logic then so are you.

There is one thing good about you AP and that is that you give me a good laugh. One bad thing about you is that you never answer my questions.

Or make any sense.

Andaras, pointing out your own hypocrisy in this matter would be an exercise in stating the obvious, so I think I'll just let your own absurdity speak for itself.

Or make any sense.

I have asked him a question about what category I would fall under giving him elements which he will need to know, and he has yet to answer it.

I believe I already dealt with this in my 'Defense of Capitalism' thread I made earlier. Libertarian/conservative weirdos like you must convince yourself that capitalism is constantly under siege and attack by 'socialists' and 'leftists' in the educational system etc, thus the constant 'blathering' about 'culture wars' etc.

Capitalism needs to make enemies.

What are you going on about?

Both 'left' and 'right' are both part of the same bourgeois political system. The only difference is that the 'left' are desirous of redressing social grievances in order to secure the continued existence of bourgeois society.

lawl@implied self-destructive shortsightedness of right-wing

Question: what class are civil servants? Proletariat as well?

Please, I wish to develop an accurate class picture of the people of NSG, so please answer my poll to help me develop this picture for the economic basis of NSG, for any political picture of NSG would be innaccurate if it did not ultilize the Marxist analysis of the class forces involved.

Soul thief in there somewhere?

I believe I already dealt with this in my 'Defense of Capitalism' thread I made earlier. Libertarian/conservative weirdos like you must convince yourself that capitalism is constantly under siege and attack by 'socialists' and 'leftists' in the educational system etc, thus the constant 'blathering' about 'culture wars' etc.

Capitalism needs to make enemies.

Sense, this makes none.

So, everybody is bougeouis because I say they're bourgeouis even if they say they're not? Even the Libertarians?

blathering about culture wars is no more delusional than blathering about class wars. The only true indicator of either is proof, hard empirical proof.

Please, I wish to develop an accurate class picture of the people of NSG, so please answer my poll to help me develop this picture for the economic basis of NSG, for any political picture of NSG would be innaccurate if it did not ultilize the Marxist analysis of the class forces involved.

I completely and utterly reject your attempt at classifying us based upon an outdated ideology that has been consistently shown throughout history to be completely unworkable in the way it was intended.

That said, I'd probably qualify as declassed at the moment. :rolleyes:

I completely and utterly reject your attempt at classifying us based upon an outdated ideology that has been consistently shown throughout history to be completely unworkable in the way it was intended.

I don't see how economic class consists of an "outdated ideology".

I completely and utterly reject your attempt at classifying us based upon an outdated ideology that has been consistently shown by glorious bourgeois propaganda to be bad.

Fixed.

I don't see how economic class consists of an "outdated ideology".
The concept of bourgeois and proleteriat are what I was referring to, not economic class as a whole. Specifically the communist versions of these terms.

Fixed.

Don't try to put words in my mouth. History speaks for itself.

Look. I like the idea of communism. It's got a lot of things going for it on paper and it's a great idea. BUT IT DOESN'T WORK. It CAN'T work without several radical changes to society, including the elimination of scarcity, which simply isn't going to happen without some extreme technological advances.

Personally, I see communism--true communism, mind, not your Stalinist crap--as a potential candidate for the ultimate makeup of human society. But that's a long time in the future, long after we've gone into space, colonized the galaxy, ect ect. (By then human would probably cover a wide range of species, and odds are the various concepts of communism as we currently think of it will be rendered entirely meaningless, along with the rest of our ideals.)

snip
I feel sad for you, your so deluded by bourgeois propaganda that you cannot think for yourself. Your idealism and petite-bourgeois utopianism is shining through your words I am afraid.

The concept of bourgeois and proleteriat are what I was referring to, not economic class as a whole. Specifically the communist versions of these terms.

Bourgeois and proletariat pretty much are economic class.

blathering about culture wars is no more delusional than blathering about class wars. The only true indicator of either is proof, hard empirical proof.
Which is what Marx would have agreed with, and then modified his views to account for the different world of today and the errors in his predictions.

Of course, "Marx" and "marxists" are two different animals. And Andaras is another one altogether. ;)

I feel sad for you, your so deluded by bourgeois propaganda that you cannot think for yourself. Your idealism and petite-bourgeois utopianism is shining through your words I am afraid.

Yeah, I guess you weren't listening when I said that I liked the idea of communism and that I'm against its implementation in reality because of demonstrated fact.

But that's not surprising. The one who's deluded here, Andaras, is you.

By the way, just for the record, I'm not a gigantic fan of capitalism either. Unregulated, it's just as bad as communism, if not worse. Even regulated it still leaves a lot of people out in the dust, which I think is just plain wrong, especially since we can take care of those people and give them at least a semi-decent standard of living.

But unfortunately that's not going to change anytime soon. Believe me, though, I'll be working to do my best to change it. And unlike you, I'll be working with reality, not with ideological foolishness.

Bourgeois and proletariat pretty much are economic class.

Hmm...true...my point is that he's trying to pin us all down as either evil or not evil, which is what I'm really railing against.

Hmm...true...my point is that he's trying to pin us all down as either evil or not evil, which is what I'm really railing against.

Fair enough.

I feel sad for you, your so deluded by bourgeois propaganda that you cannot think for yourself. Your idealism and petite-bourgeois utopianism is shining through your words I am afraid.

That word utopianism, as an insult? Coming from a communist? I find it hard to laugh so much.

I consider myself a very free-thinking person but yours is the sort of Khmer Rouge/DPRK accusation hurling that actually and truly scares me. If this were Cambodia, you would probably kill me just for wearing glasses.

I feel sad for you, your so deluded by bourgeois propaganda that you cannot think for yourself. Your idealism and petite-bourgeois utopianism is shining through your words I am afraid.
Whatever happened to the old Andaras? The one I had a reasonable debate with? The one who didn't continually rant about bourgeois conspiracies?

I want the old Andaras back.:(

Hey Andaras what's your job?

I completely and utterly reject your attempt at classifying us based upon an outdated ideology that has been consistently shown throughout history to be completely unworkable in the way it was intended.


I don't think that Marx's idea of analyzing the capitalist society by tracing the flux of the surplus value (Mehrwert) is quite actual - as the surplus value, in its monetary form, is still the most exchanged and most influential "thing" in the world.
I do agree that, today, limiting oneself to the original analysis of Marx and Engels is simply stupid. One should always keep the analysis up to date with the current state of society (which is not anymore the society of XIX century Britain!), and delve deeper, to avoid the risk of oversimplifying and getting stuck in "untouchable" cathegorizations.

Andaras, please stop now. You are making Zombie Lenin cry, you dogmatism-promulgating unwitting counter-revolutionist. I demand you write a self-criticism now.

Just out of curiosity Andaras, what do you do for a living? I'm a postal carrier.

All you people who are asking Andaras what his job is are just blinded by bourgeois propaganda.

I answer legitimate questions from those willing to learn, not from bourgeois kiddies who think their right-wing-propaganda education represents the sum of human knowledge.
Maybe I dare ask a question, then: I can hardly be called "bourgeois" if you checked out my pathetic monetary situation (do I own any means of production? ummmmmmm... no), nor a "kiddie" at my age, nor do I think that my education represents the sum of human knowledge, indeed there are many things I confess I do not know, like: what does Andaras do for a living?

Why are you making polls like this while you should be sweltering in my sheatshops, labor slave?

It's evident, Andaras is a student - a university student at that. We all know that university students are long on idealism, theoretical knowledge, and worshipful acceptance of all the tripe their cloud cuckoo land dwelling professors hand out. I know, I was a university student once, I even had a poster of Mao on my dorm room wall, right next to the picture of Ayn Rand. When university students leave the protection of the universty cloister (whether from exhaustion or graduation) they begin to grow up and their views change to fit reality - unless they become professors.

Bourgeois and proletariat pretty much are economic class.
All food is either blockage or runnage. Cheese is obviously blockage. Well, unless you have certain allergies/sensitivities, then it's runnage.
Cabbage is obviously runnage.
Pizza could be either, but we only have two catagories (catergorys, if you're from the Midlands), so we'll have to shoe-horn it in there somewhere.

It's evident, Andaras is a student - a university student at that. We all know that university students are long on idealism, theoretical knowledge, and worshipful acceptance of all the tripe their cloud cuckoo land dwelling professors hand out. I know, I was a university student once, I even had a poster of Mao on my dorm room wall, right next to the picture of Ayn Rand. When university students leave the protection of the universty cloister (whether from exhaustion or graduation) they begin to grow up and their views change to fit reality - unless they become professors.

You're just jealous their reality is better than your reality.

You're just jealous their reality is better than your reality.

Good drugs will do that.

I went from proletariat to lumpenproletariat. Which I would assume you lump living off disability as.

All you people who are asking Andaras what his job is are just blinded by bourgeois propaganda.

Nope, just curious.

None of the above. I don't believe in labeling individual human beings according to Marxist terminology.

QFT. Ditto here. Also, just because you own a business with employees does not mean exploitation is taking place. If the workers are being paid at least the legal minimum wage, then they're not being exploited. They're only being exploited if they are being forced to work for free.

Employment =/= exploitation.

Capitalism has its faults, but it's still better than communism/Marxism/socialism/whatever you want to call it.

I went from proletariat to lumpenproletariat. Which I would assume you lump living off disability as.

Yes, apparently you and I have no class.

It's evident, Andaras is a student - a university student at that. We all know that university students are long on idealism, theoretical knowledge, and worshipful acceptance of all the tripe their cloud cuckoo land dwelling professors hand out. I know, I was a university student once, I even had a poster of Mao on my dorm room wall, right next to the picture of Ayn Rand. When university students leave the protection of the universty cloister (whether from exhaustion or graduation) they begin to grow up and their views change to fit reality - unless they become professors.

LOL that has some truth in it.

How does the old saying go.

When you are 20 and you are not a socialist you have no heart, when you are 40 and you are still a socialist than you have no brain.

Or something along those lines.

This thread saddens me. So many proletarians suffering so badly from false consciousness, rejecting the wisdom of poor Andaras, who only wishes to save them from a life of unfulfilling and exploitative work, alienated from the act of production, other human beings, and their most basic species-being

*tries to keep a straight face*

Nope, just curious.

Well, that's what you think, and that's what I think, but Andaras will quickly correct both of our petty bourgeois brainwashed misconceptions, showing us both how wrong we are.

Yes, apparently you and I have no class.

I find it hilarious that the disabled are put int he same group as criminals. I guess ya'll are the same socially as the drug dealer down the block huh? And Andaras expects people to take this shit seriously.



Hey Andaras, what do you do for a living? I'm a dispatcher for a trucking company.

I find it hilarious that the disabled are put int he same group as criminals. I guess ya'll are the same socially as the drug dealer down the block huh? And Andaras expects people to take this shit seriously.



Hey Andaras, what do you do for a living? I'm a dispatcher for a trucking company.

Well, you see, the disabled contribute nothing to society, and to Andaras (and ironically also to the right-wing Libertarians) that is a crime, and that at least some disabled people are not physically able to contribute is irrelevant. Now in my case, I have just completed my degree and am currently looking for work.

LOL that has some truth in it.

How does the old saying go.

When you are 20 and you are not a socialist you have no heart, when you are 40 and you are still a socialist than you have no brain.

Or something along those lines.

I assume you say 'socialist' in the idealist way, and indeed in College I was very much in that vein. But the only truly materialist and pragmatic 'socialism' is Marxism-Leninism along with the theoretical contributions of Stalin and Enver Hoxha.

I assume you say 'socialist' in the idealist way, and indeed in College I was very much in that vein. But the only truly materialist and pragmatic 'socialism' is Marxism-Leninism along with the theoretical contributions of Stalin and Enver Hoxha.

Huh, so you're past college. Interesting. Now what do you do for a living?

Now what do you do for a living?
I believe I already answered this long ago, I refuse to play into your personalized and individualist games.

I believe I already answered this long ago, I refuse to play into your personalized and individualist games.

That's nice, but you asked us, so only fair you show us yours. I mean if you want to be taken remotely seriously. I'm digging through your past posts now. I'm almost certain you've said before you were in middle/high school.

That's nice, but you asked us, so only fair you show us yours. I mean if you want to be taken remotely seriously. I'm digging through your past posts now. I'm almost certain you've said before you were in middle/high school.

I work for a wage, if that's what you mean. I won't go into it because no doubt a bunch of pro-bourgeois individuals on NSG would love to try and dog me into the bourgeois state-police.

I work for a wage, if that's what you mean. I won't go into it because no doubt a bunch of pro-bourgeois individuals on NSG would love to try and dog me into the bourgeois state-police.

I find that so indescribably unlikely. Largely because you refuse to say what you do. Probably because you're a student and if you mentioned a job we'd dig up someone who could quiz you and prove you didn't do it. Stop the pointless charade.

I for one am a university student who does casual retail work also, and at times I think to myself that I would prefer to have a life-time job with set wages and regulations, that I have certainty for my life, even if I don't have choice I personally would wish for such a life.

Hey look, a student. Though I suppose you could of graduated since then. I doubt it. You're too naive.

I find that so indescribably unlikely. Largely because you refuse to say what you do. Probably because you're a student and if you mentioned a job we'd dig up someone who could quiz you and prove you didn't do it. Stop the pointless charade.
Haha, more likely than you'd think. The bourgeois and the police go hand in hand.

How was your reply relevant to the quote?

How was your reply relevant to the quote?

I'd rather give as little private information away as possible, seeing as bourgeois scum like you would gladly give it to the cops.

I'd rather give as little private information away as possible, seeing as bourgeois scum like you would gladly give it to the cops.

So, drug dealer then? Counterfeiter? Coyote?

So, drug dealer then? Counterfeiter? Coyote?

Working class, the greatest crime of all in the eyes of the bourgeois state.

I'm Bourgeois scum, eh?

Working class, the greatest crime of all in the eyes of the bourgeois state.

You're not even attempting to make sense anymore are you? Figure if you gibber madly long enough we'll get bored and quit asking?

Well, I don't fit in any of the options in the pool.

Sad, but not surprising, after all, Marxist theories have been proven wrong a century ago...

So, what other options could you offer for this pool, Andaras ?

Oh Andaras: http://image.hazardstrip.com/ico/sprays/testchmb_a_110000_editing_are_you_.png

I'd rather give as little private information away as possible, seeing as bourgeois scum like you would gladly give it to the cops.

'Emergency services, please state which service you require.'
'Police please, there's a communist on the internet I need you to arrest'

And you call the bourgeois paranoid and living in fear.

What about government employees? How about students?

'Emergency services, please state which service you require.'
'Police please, there's a communist on the internet I need you to arrest'

And you call the bourgeois paranoid and living in fear.

I'm not sure about Australia's laws, but I'm pretty sure being a college commie isn't illegal there. Which is why I think he's hiding because he doesn't have a job. Not that it matters. He'd be bourgeois just because mommy and daddy had enough cash to pay for his college.

I'm not sure about Australia's laws
You heard of sedition laws?

I'm not sure about Australia's laws, but I'm pretty sure being a college commie isn't illegal there. Which is why I think he's hiding because he doesn't have a job. Not that it matters. He'd be bourgeois just because mommy and daddy had enough cash to pay for his college.

Wow, personal attacks galore, it seems thats all you far-rights nuts have left.

You heard of sedition laws?

As it happens, I have:

However, the amended laws no longer include specific penalties for uttering seditious words, nor provisions relating to seditious enterprises, although the definition of seditious intent continues to apply in the determination of unlawful organisations. Additionally, all prosecutions for sedition (no longer just summary prosecution) now require the approval of the Attorney-General, although this does not apply to arrests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_sedition_law#Current_Law

Now, what do you do for a living?

You fucking hypocrite Andaras what d'you call this http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13861475&postcount=209

You fucking hypocrite Andaras what d'you call this http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13861475&postcount=209

Playful banter? Though you ought watch it, this thread will get modly attention eventually and I'm certain you'll not want to be on their bad side.

Oh Andaras: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Australia_(revived)


HELP HELP I'M BEING REPRESSED!

That page doesn't exist.

That page doesn't exist.

Yeah, fixed the link. Stupid jolt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:489368980_fabe63173d_o.jpg Those guys are hot, should we fix Andaras up with one of them?

One on the right probably is Andaras.

All reported for personal attacks.

(good to see that's what the bourgeois revert to when cornered)

All reported for personal attacks.

(good to see that's what the bourgeois revert to when cornered)

Still not answering the question there Andy. What do you do for a living. Given that Australia has a communist party, and has had them in past you can't claim big brother is after you.

I must say I find your repeated dodging deeply amusing.

Still not answering the question there Andy. What do you do for a living. Given that Australia has a communist party, and has had them in past you can't claim big brother is after you.

I must say I find your repeated dodging deeply amusing.
Reported again.

HAHA. You're like a cornered cat, desperately resorting to reporting everyone to the mods when you claim to throw bombs at bourgeois scum.

Reported again.

You're ill suited to playing the martyr. Take lessons from Hillary, she was masterful at it.

It's amazing you won't answer the question you posed to the forum. Well and hilarious.

My question remains:

Where are government employees and students classified.

I'd figure students would be classified as "unclassed", but I'd like to hear your opine on that one before I place checkmarks.

My question remains:

Where are government employees and students classified.

I'd figure students would be classified as "unclassed", but I'd like to hear your opine on that one before I place checkmarks.

Given his penchant for quoting Marxist writings verbatim without attribution I'd say he's got few original opinions. You'd probably be better off googling an answer. He'd likely have to.

You should put Andaras on your ignore list, like I did.

The level of debate on NSG has shot up dramatically, according to my screen.

And threads like this provide a certain surreal humour. Like Garfield without Garfield.

You should put Andaras on your ignore list, like I did.

The level of debate on NSG has shot up dramatically, according to my screen.

And threads like this provide a certain surreal humour. Like Garfield without Garfield.

I would but there's a certain surreal quality to watching someone self destruct.

Take lessons from Hillary, she was masterful at it.
She would have won were she genuinely good enough at her martyrtabulous bullshitting. She wasn't.

NSG has a great class structure. Andaras is in remedial class, and that's about it.

My question remains:

Where are government employees and students classified.

I'd figure students would be classified as "unclassed", but I'd like to hear your opine on that one before I place checkmarks.From a Marxian perspective, it's not as important what you're doing at this moment as where you identify your interest per se.

Most students expect to find themselves out hunting for salaried employment upon graduation. To this extent their interest lies with the working class.

Some students (including many that I teach) expect perhaps to work for Daddy's corporation or some such, but their interest is essentially their parents' interest: if they stand to benefit through inheritance or otherwise from the wealth/influence of the capitalist class, they are decidedly bourgeois--even if at the moment, and in the predictable future, they are students or employees.

The key here is not to identify a hard and fast set of "categories." The point is to identify various class interests in society. Then you just need to ask yourself where your interest lies. Do you want to ally with the working class in fighting for universal insurance coverage and other social benefits? Or do you want to ally with the owning class in protecting capital and minimizing social costs in the form of taxes?

What happens if you understand the system as a whole and the parts played by each person in it? Uber bourgeois?

What happens if you understand the system as a whole and the parts played by each person in it? Uber bourgeois?
Then you're mad :p

Then you're mad :p

Good to know. Now pardon me as I go off to giggle disturbingly.

Nah, he works for the Australian intelligence services. Trying to see who agrees with his revolutionary stuff, so he cant send his mates in to pick them up.Interesting to see how you revert to immature personal attacks when confronted.

I have found that this is a common bourgeois tactic utilized against Communists, they criticize based on an individualist and personalized basis.

What they fail to realize though about Communists such as myself is that we do not care for personal individual matters, we only care about the class forces involved.

Just curious AP, how is anything in Yoot's post an attack? He jokingly suggested that you worked for Australian Intelligence...
Where's the attack part?

Yes, apparently you and I have no class.

We knew that about you already Maineiacs...
:p

I'm disappointed. This thread could have been interesting, but since the thread creator doesn't wish to debate interesting pints raised, it's tone and interest has dropped faster than a slave-labour sweatshop made sofa being hurled from the balcony of a declassed (lumpenproletariat?) council tower-block.

All reported for personal attacks.

(good to see that's what the bourgeois revert to when cornered)

Did you just admit to being bourgeois? I think you did, since it's pretty damn obvious (even to you) that the only one "cornered" here is you.

I think we can ascribe your frothing hatred of "bourgeois" to be an example of projected self-hatred.

We knew that about you already Maineiacs...
:p

That was mean! I'm telling! Maaaaaa!!!!!!

I'm in the god class. Everyone else is below me, but above Andaras.

I'm not sure about Australia's laws, but I'm pretty sure being a college commie isn't illegal there. Which is why I think he's hiding because he doesn't have a job. Not that it matters. He'd be bourgeois just because mommy and daddy had enough cash to pay for his college.

Well, you really don't need a lot of money to be able to go to University over here, trust me I know people whose parents are certainly in the poorer classes yet their children are attending university, we are a bit different over here than in America.

I assume you say 'socialist' in the idealist way, and indeed in College I was very much in that vein. But the only truly materialist and pragmatic 'socialism' is Marxism-Leninism along with the theoretical contributions of Stalin and Enver Hoxha.

Yes I mean in the idealist way, and as you say you have now left university yet continue with this vien of thought, as I said you have no brain if you continue these thoughts.

Well, you really don't need a lot of money to be able to go to University over here, trust me I know people whose parents are certainly in the poorer classes yet their children are attending university, we are a bit different over here than in America.

Oh the poor can attend college here too, but they generally have to work quite a lot to do it. Andaras said he only did "casual" retail work. Which I take to mean part time, and probably not for long. That means Mommy and Daddums were supporting his ass.

He's just another spoiled rich boy playing commie because it'll shock his evil capitalist dad who never payed him attention anyway.

Oh the poor can attend college here too, but they generally have to work quite a lot to do it. Andaras said he only did "casual" retail work. Which I take to mean part time, and probably not for long. That means Mommy and Daddums were supporting his ass.

He's just another spoiled rich boy playing commie because it'll shock his evil capitalist dad who never payed him attention anyway.

Yes I have alwas had those same thoughts about him as well, though maybe not 'rich' depending on how you define it.

Casual in Australia is sort of part time, and can range from very few hours such as 5 a week all the way up to 38, it is used in these higher hours per week by employers as a means of ensuring they can easily dismiss workers and not have to worry about giving tem bnefits, of course when someone is casual rather than part or full time it does mean they will be paid more.

I am sure he lives at home with his parents, and since he is from Sydney as a uni student I would not be at all surprised if this is actually the case.

I am sure he lives at home with his parents, and since he is from Sydney as a uni student I would not be at all surprised if this is actually the case.
Hey, I'm also a uni student who lives at home with his parents, and I'd hate to think that people would dismiss my ideas and views because of that.

I think that Andaras adds a bit of flavour to this place, which really needs it, he also offers people something to actually debate against, he's clearly doing a lot of research in his chosen area (though I'd prefer less copy-pasting and more expressing things in his own words) and he's clearly not one of those stupid kids who couldn't give a rat's ass about politics and wouldn't know Marx from the Marx Brothers (and probably couldn't identify either).

We could be doing a lot worse than having him around. And nothing that can be said about his character or person affects in any way the merit, or lack thereof, of any arguments he might put forward.

Hey, I'm also a uni student who lives at home with his parents, and I'd hate to think that people would dismiss my ideas and views because of that.

I think that Andaras adds a bit of flavour to this place, which really needs it, he also offers people something to actually debate against, he's clearly doing a lot of research in his chosen area (though I'd prefer less copy-pasting and more expressing things in his own words) and he's clearly not one of those stupid kids who couldn't give a rat's ass about politics and wouldn't know Marx from the Marx Brothers (and probably couldn't identify either).

We could be doing a lot worse than having him around. And nothing that can be said about his character or person affects in any way the merit, or lack thereof, of any arguments he might put forward.

The thing that bugs me about Andy is he does such an inept job of defending his positions. He quotes Marxist rantings and declares anyone who challenges them as bourgeois (and the fact I can now spell that fucking word ought be proof how much I've seen him say it). Failing that he threatens to fire bomb your house and runs screaming to the mods. Communism has it's merits, as long as you don't confuse an economic philosophy with a political one. There's no reason you can't have a communist democracy.

Hey, I'm also a uni student who lives at home with his parents, and I'd hate to think that people would dismiss my ideas and views because of that.

I think that Andaras adds a bit of flavour to this place, which really needs it, he also offers people something to actually debate against, he's clearly doing a lot of research in his chosen area (though I'd prefer less copy-pasting and more expressing things in his own words) and he's clearly not one of those stupid kids who couldn't give a rat's ass about politics and wouldn't know Marx from the Marx Brothers (and probably couldn't identify either).

We could be doing a lot worse than having him around. And nothing that can be said about his character or person affects in any way the merit, or lack thereof, of any arguments he might put forward.

Leon, I do not think of you in that way and I don' dismiss your views at all, especially as you have shown time and time again your well thought out arguments and expressed your views clearly, I have nothing but respect for you even if we do disagree on some points, however if you lived in Sydney attending uni I would not be surprised if you were living with your parents, which is what I meant by the section you quoted. If my parents lived in the same city I attend uni in I too would live with them.

While AP does at least go out looking for research, he does have that going for him, unlike some other people I have at my uni who as you say wouldn't know the difference between Marx and the Marx brothers and couldn't identify either (I hope you don't mind if I use that again), he does have a tendency of letting go and telling people that they are class traitors and scum, something which does annoy me not to mention the fact that when I tried asking him a sensible question so I could further understand his views (and I am not talking about what his job is) he completely ignored it and said I had been brainwashed.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/2709865621_8de3b0ac6e.jpg?v=0

nuff said

he's clearly not one of those stupid kids who couldn't give a rat's ass about politics
That's unfortunate, actually. If he were a little stupider he would be less likely to end up murdering someone, which is the only place I can see him ending.

What happens if you understand the system as a whole and the parts played by each person in it?

What does that have to do with anything?

Every capitalist knows that if there are no workers, there are no profits--but does that mean that he or she is always eager to raise wages?

There's a fine balance to be maintained. It's the basis of modern economics. You have to pay your workers well or they'll move elsewhere. You have to provide your product/service cheap enough to entice customers. Without the workers the factory cannot function. Without the sales department they cannot sell anything. Without the shippers they can't move products.

Marxism is outdated an laughable. Andaras embraces it like a child with a teddy bear, not realizing it's futility.

You have to pay your workers well or they'll move elsewhere.

Well, more specifically... you have to pay your workers well enough that they'll not move elsewhere.

Yet it remains true that workers historically, and to this day, pursue all kinds of means beyond that of the capitalist market (collective bargaining, political organizing) to increase their share--usually without bringing about the collapse of the economy. And the capitalists, historically and to this day, typically oppose them--at least when it is their particular wealth at stake. How many employers happily embrace labor organizing, or labor regulations?

Well, more specifically... you have to pay your workers well enough that they'll not move elsewhere.

Yet it remains true that workers historically, and to this day, pursue all kinds of means beyond that of the capitalist market (collective bargaining, political organizing) to increase their share--usually without bringing about the collapse of the economy. And the capitalists, historically and to this day, typically oppose them--at least when it is their particular wealth at stake. How many employers happily embrace labor organizing, or labor regulations?

Organized labor is of questionable usefulness now. It only increases the average wage and with it the cost of goods thus inflation.

Declassed individual I spose, considering you are leeching off the wage labor of your parents to get-by, correct?

just like you are my friend.

There is no other job you could have, you hang around here for hours on end even though it is clear that no one likes you remotely.

There is no other job you could have, you hang around here for hours on end even though it is clear that no one likes you remotely.
That's simply not true.

Andaras and I may disagree vehemently, to the point where I think he considers me (or the politics I represent) a real threat to his political ideal, but I'm rather fond of the lad.

On no account would I want him to leave NS:G.

just like you are my friend.

There is no other job you could have, you hang around here for hours on end even though it is clear that no one likes you remotely.

Dude, just because you don't like this guys ideas doesn't mean that you can insult him.

Dude, just because you don't like this guys ideas doesn't mean that you can insult him.
His "ideas" include the virtuousness of murder. I am afraid he is bound to end up acting that out. He needs to be more than insulted, but insulting him is all we can do here.

He needs to be more than insulted, but insulting him is all we can do here.
If you think that, I'd recommend you have a re-read of the forum rules.

The thing that bugs me about Andy is he does such an inept job of defending his positions. He quotes Marxist rantings and declares anyone who challenges them as bourgeois (and the fact I can now spell that fucking word ought be proof how much I've seen him say it). Failing that he threatens to fire bomb your house and runs screaming to the mods. Communism has it's merits, as long as you don't confuse an economic philosophy with a political one. There's no reason you can't have a communist democracy.

Interestingly enough, revolutions have never (to my knowledge) started among the poor. It's the people who have enough money and leisure to study and read who start them - in other words, the bourgeois.

His "ideas" include the virtuousness of murder. I am afraid he is bound to end up acting that out. He needs to be more than insulted, but insulting him is all we can do here.

So are you promoting someone bringing harm to AP?
If you are that's rather hypocritical, don't you think?

So are you promoting someone bringing harm to AP?
No, what I believe is that he needs to be confined. However, we have no ability or right here to accomplish that.

Interestingly enough, revolutions have never (to my knowledge) started among the poor. It's the people who have enough money and leisure to study and read who start them - in other words, the bourgeois.

I pointed that out several pages ago. That communist revolutions start when one member of the upper class decides to be rid of the rest.

Interestingly enough, revolutions have never (to my knowledge) started among the poor. It's the people who have enough money and leisure to study and read who start them - in other words, the bourgeois.

I pointed that out several pages ago. That communist revolutions start when one member of the upper class decides to be rid of the rest.

"Comitted Elites" are a part of any political movement, whether it's communist or whatever. There is a myth among Marxist thinkers that proto-communist or primitivist peoples lived (or continue to live, in some cases) in a state of egalitarian equality. Anthropological research has proven this absolutely false in cultures that are considered "primitive" or "uncivilized."

Systems of prestige and power exist in all societies, it's simply a question of how hierarchies manifest themselves. Elite members of a society dissatisfied with the current situation form a large part of movements for change- using their prestige, power, and capital to finance and support those movements, and organizing state systems when the "revolution comes."

We can't forget that in every communist uprising in the past 200 years, there have been a core of committed elites (whether intellectuals, military figures, or otherwise) supporting and organizing the insurrection. Lenin and his cadre were exiled intellectual thinkers, highly educated, as was Ho Chi Minh. Most of Mao Zedong's close supporters were educated in western institutions, or even militarily (at Whampoa or elsewhere).

The tendency of those leaders to hang on to power completely destroys the claims of "equality" that their movement professed, as they emerged almost instantly as the ruling elite class. It's quite fascinating.

Connecting political science to anthropology can be orgasmic, I think. :D

His "ideas" include the virtuousness of murder. I am afraid he is bound to end up acting that out. He needs to be more than insulted, but insulting him is all we can do here.
I think there's a difference between saying something silly about Stalinism (like that one supports it) and actually murdering someone. He may go a bit too far sometimes, but if he actually is a fairly normal sort of student or whatever, I don't think he's liable to actually hurt anyone. If his views tell him anything, it's that random violence doesn't change material realities, and he's in no position to make it widespread enough for it to be so.

And besides, insults are hardly going to change his mind. Marx was a believer in the scientific method and the analytical approach to solving disagreements. If Andaras is a real marxist, he can't reject all argument flat-out (and that's his biggest problem at this point) but has to actually defeat them by showing them to be false.

He's hardly the first person here with extremist and borderline violent views. There were people calling for the death of Muslims, the death of Jews, the death of Americans, the death of immigrants and so on. Most of the time it is because the way people argue with them initially pushes them into a corner where they can either admit defeat to people who insult them and try everything to make them look bad, or take the most extreme, unanswerable position they can imagine. I have a feeling that in real life they tend to be more moderate about these things.

I think there's a difference between saying something silly about Stalinism (like that one supports it) and actually murdering someone. He may go a bit too far sometimes, but if he actually is a fairly normal sort of student or whatever, I don't think he's liable to actually hurt anyone. If his views tell him anything, it's that random violence doesn't change material realities, and he's in no position to make it widespread enough for it to be so.

And besides, insults are hardly going to change his mind. Marx was a believer in the scientific method and the analytical approach to solving disagreements. If Andaras is a real marxist, he can't reject all argument flat-out (and that's his biggest problem at this point) but has to actually defeat them by showing them to be false.

He's hardly the first person here with extremist and borderline violent views. [TB]here were people calling for the death of Muslims, the death of Jews, the death of Americans,[/B] the death of immigrants and so on. Most of the time it is because the way people argue with them initially pushes them into a corner where they can either admit defeat to people who insult them and try everything to make them look bad, or take the most extreme, unanswerable position they can imagine. I have a feeling that in real life they tend to be more moderate about these things.

And all those should die...
at least eventually...

My parents make decent money working for the state government what does that make me?

Most of the time it is because the way people argue with them initially pushes them into a corner where they can either admit defeat to people who insult them and try everything to make them look bad, or take the most extreme, unanswerable position they can imagine. I have a feeling that in real life they tend to be more moderate about these things.
And that's the trouble, I suppose, with internet forums.


To lighten the mood, and if you'd excuse the hijack, I noticed the joke in your sig and, if you haven't heard it before, thought you'd like one I heard last night in the excellent film Das Leben der Anderen:

Early in the morning, Erich Honecker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Honecker) arrives at his office and opens his window. He sees the sun and says: "Good morning, comrade Sun!". The sun replies: "Good morning, comrade Honecker!". Honecker works, and then at noon he heads to the window and says: "Good day, comrade Sun!". The sun replies: "Good day, comrade Honecker!" In the evening, Erich calls it a day, and heads once more to the window, and says: "Good evening, comrade Sun!"

The sun is silent.

Honecker says again: "Good evening, comrade Sun! What's the matter?".

The sun replies: "Fuck you! I'm in the West now."

And that's the trouble, I suppose, with internet forums.


To lighten the mood, and if you'd excuse the hijack, I noticed the joke in your sig and, if you haven't heard it before, thought you'd like one I heard last night in the excellent film Das Leben der Anderen:

Early in the morning, Erich Honecker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Honecker) arrives at his office and opens his window. He sees the sun and says: "Good morning, comrade Sun!". The sun replies: "Good morning, comrade Honecker!". Honecker works, and then at noon he heads to the window and says: "Good day, comrade Sun!". The sun replies: "Good day, comrade Honecker!" In the evening, Erich calls it a day, and heads once more to the window, and says: "Good evening, comrade Sun!"

The sun is silent.

Honecker says again: "Good evening, comrade Sun! What's the matter?".

The sun replies: "Fuck you! I'm in the West now."

Thats pretty clever.

I pointed that out several pages ago. That communist revolutions start when one member of the upper class decides to be rid of the rest.

Isn't it interesting that every government that exists and ever existed tries to restrain the growth of the middle class, usually through taxation - possibly because of the tendency of the middle class to become involved in revolution.

And besides, insults are hardly going to change his mind. Marx was a believer in the scientific method and the analytical approach to solving disagreements. If Andaras is a real marxist, he can't reject all argument flat-out (and that's his biggest problem at this point) but has to actually defeat them by showing them to be false.

Problem is Andy isn't a Marxist, he's more of a Stalinist. As such his views lean more toward this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism), at the very least as evidenced in this thread and elsewhere.

Isn't it interesting that every government that exists and ever existed tries to restrain the growth of the middle class, usually through taxation
I don't know if that's the case here in the UK. The middle class is the lifeblood of the main political parties.

I don't know if that's the case here in the UK. The middle class is the lifeblood of the main political parties.

I suspect that in the UK, the middle class is taxed enough to keep it from growing but not enough to destroy it. No government wants to eliminate the middle class, they just want to control it.

Problem is Andy isn't a Marxist, he's more of a Stalinist. As such his views lean more toward this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism), at the very least as evidenced in this thread and elsewhere.
Well, Lysenkoism was based on the ability to use state violence to deflect arguments. He doesn't have that, so sooner or later he's gonna realise that simply declaring something bourgeois (jeez, now I know how to spell it without checking too...) doesn't yield results.

I'm a low ranking government bureaucrat.

Guess I belong to the social class called Outer Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Party)

I'm the non-Marxist class out there defeating Marxist ideology. (in NSG world that translates to #d)

I think there's a difference between saying something silly about Stalinism (like that one supports it) and actually murdering someone. He may go a bit too far sometimes, but if he actually is a fairly normal sort of student or whatever, I don't think he's liable to actually hurt anyone.
I disagree. Campus shooting rampages don't come out of nowhere, and if he were in the United States, I would consider him a prime candidate. In Australia, it will be more difficult for him to obtain firearms, so he is more likely to end up planting bombs on trains.

If his views tell him anything, it's that random violence doesn't change material realities
On the contrary, he has repeatedly expressed admiration for random violence.
And besides, insults are hardly going to change his mind.
No, I don't think jabbing him with sticks is going to cure his mental state. But I do think that people talking as if they find anything admirable or "cute" about him is likely to make him worse.
Marx was a believer in the scientific method and the analytical approach to solving disagreements. If Andaras is a real marxist...
He's a play-marxist.
He's hardly the first person here with extremist and borderline violent views.
But in my (thoroughly non-professional) opinion, he is the one most likely to proceed to acting it out.

On the contrary, he has repeatedly expressed admiration for random violence.
When?

He's certainly addressed systematic violence against those 'enemies of the revolution', but that is far from random, and further still from high-school shootings.

Well, Lysenkoism was based on the ability to use state violence to deflect arguments. He doesn't have that, so sooner or later he's gonna realise that simply declaring something bourgeois (jeez, now I know how to spell it without checking too...) doesn't yield results.

I meant the comparison in regards to it's methodology in dealing with detractors. Declare them agents of the bourgeois and insult.

When?

He's certainly addressed systematic violence against those 'enemies of the revolution', but that is far from random, and further still from high-school shootings.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13861475&postcount=209 has been discussed and dismissed on the Mods forum, but it is far from the first time that he has praised bomb attacks as if they accomplished something. He gives me the impression of slowly building up the nerve to carry them out.