NationStates Jolt Archive

Is this the Region, this the Soil, the Clime,
Said then the lost Arch-Angel, this the seat
That we must change for Heav'n, this mournful gloom
For that celestial light? Be it so, since he
Who now is Sov'reign can dispose and bid
What shall be right: farthest from him is best
Whom reason hath equalled, force hath made supreme
Above his equals. Farewell happy fields
Where Joy for ever dwells: Hail horrors, hail
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell
Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings
A mind not to be changed by Place or Time.
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least
We shall be free; th'Almighty hath not built
Here for his envy, will not drive us hence:
Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav'n.

I've just started reading Paradise Lost, where this passage comes from (Satan just woke up in hell after losing his revolt and being tossed down there and is talking to his lieutenants about what just happened). For those who don't know, it's a (very long) poem about Satan, Adam and Eve and their banishment from the Garden of Eden. Whatever the reason, John Milton wrote it in a way that made Satan look less than pure evil, and in a post-medieval world his views tend to strike chords with people.

So where do you stand on this particular story?

Two things:

1. You are srsy overtaxing this forum if you wish to discuss Milton.

2. It's not worth reading.

The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
What matter where, if I be still the same,
And what I should be, all but less than he
Whom Thunder hath made greater?
. . . is more the point: that a corrupt mind can invert the natural order of things. C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce (q.v.) is a parallel point of view.

The post-modern mind tends to miss the horror that the words were intended to convey.

Milton is a bit of a chore to read, but very worthwhile. I am working through Samson Agonistes bit by bit.

id rather be in hell then serve under god who is not a very fun god. at least in hell i get to have fun. lol. and just so people know i was born catholic so i grew up with that shit.

id rather be in hell then serve under god who is not a very fun god. at least in hell i get to have fun. lol. and just so people know i was born catholic so i grew up with that shit.

Fidel Castro dies and goes to heaven. When he gets there, St. Peter tells him that he is not on the list and that no way in hell, no how, does he belong in heaven. Fidel must go to hell. So Fidel goes to hell,where Satan gives him a hearty welcome and tells him to make himself at home. Then Fidel notices that he left his luggage in heaven and tells Satan, who says, "No hay problema, I'll send a couple of little devils to get your stuff." When the little devils get to heaven they find the gates are locked -- St.Peter is having lunch -- and they start debating what to do. Finally, one comes up with the idea that they should go over the wall and get the luggage. As they are climbing the wall, two little angels see them, and one angel says to the other, "My Godness! Fidel has been in hell no more than ten minutes and we're already getting refugees!"

The post-modern mind tends to miss the horror that the words were intended to convey.
Well, yeah. It did strike me as a very modern, almost libertarian thing to say. But obviously that's not what Milton was after, which means that the meaning I'm getting out of it isn't the original one.

Which I thought so interesting that, taxing or not, I figured it was worth a thread.

Well, yeah. It did strike me as a very modern, almost libertarian thing to say. But obviously that's not what Milton was after, which means that the meaning I'm getting out of it isn't the original one.

Which I thought so interesting that, taxing or not, I figured it was worth a thread.

What's funny is that Milton was a Puritan. In fact, I think he even had a position in the Cromwell government.

I've read bits and pieces of the poem, and I think it's a really good story. (It's much more interesting than the admittedly shorter Creation story in Genesis.) The poetry is also good, but, as you say, long. I couldn't read it all in one sitting.

I didn't find Satan likeable, though, the way many readers do. I thought he was more a tragic hero, like Oedipus.

So where do you stand on this particular story?

Neither of the places exist, and you won't see how "reigning or serving" are quite inconsequential in oblivion.

Neither of the places exist, and you won't see how "reigning or serving" are quite inconsequential in oblivion.

What do you think of the poem itself?

And why does your name have a "+" next to it in the list of people viewing the forum? No one else has that.

What do you think of the poem itself?

Not rhymy enough.

And why does your name have a "+" next to it in the list of people viewing the forum? No one else has that.

I see no "+".

And why does your name have a "+" next to it in the list of people viewing the forum? No one else has that.

Maybe you told the forum Fass is your friend ;) ?

Maybe you told the forum Fass is your friend ;) ?

Good Lord I did. I think the next day was when I officially went cold turkey.

What's funny is that Milton was a Puritan. In fact, I think he even had a position in the Cromwell government.

I've read bits and pieces of the poem, and I think it's a really good story. (It's much more interesting than the admittedly shorter Creation story in Genesis.) The poetry is also good, but, as you say, long. I couldn't read it all in one sitting.

I didn't find Satan likeable, though, the way many readers do. I thought he was more a tragic hero, like Oedipus.

He was blind when it was "written" and he dictated it to his daughter. There are some who believe his daughter actually wrote it, and used her father's name to get it published.

I studied this epic poem last year for my degree. I found the poem very interesting though it made God seem like someone who was very unsure of himself. Even though everyone knows how it ends you still seem to start cheering for Satan. Quite the opposite of what Milton had in mind...

Interesting poem, but i've read better.

I studied this for my degree in 2004/05. Its a great poem, basically a cool fantasy story with epic infernal battle machines and excellent characters like sin and death and the angels who descend to speak with Adam and Eve. As I recall that is. And Satan in the lake of fire conversing with his fellow angels about how to annoy god. I don't remember much of it now as its been so long since I looked at it, but I do remember it as being one of the most entertaining things I've ever read and obviously there were philosophical/political subtexts which I couldn't describe now but which added so much more to the story. Some other good ye olde literature would be Dantes Inferno, similar stuff.

I've just started reading Paradise Lost, where this passage comes from (Satan just woke up in hell after losing his revolt and being tossed down there and is talking to his lieutenants about what just happened). For those who don't know, it's a (very long) poem about Satan, Adam and Eve and their banishment from the Garden of Eden. Whatever the reason, John Milton wrote it in a way that made Satan look less than pure evil, and in a post-medieval world his views tend to strike chords with people.

So where do you stand on this particular story?

Certainly better to reign in hell than serve in heaven. Particularly when the typical outlook on heaven from the average theist tends to be rather boring.