NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm just wondering about NSG's opinions regarding abstinence education in classrooms. I'm not here referring to the indoctrination via abstinence-only programs run by zealots - we all know those don't work.

But, when it comes to drugs and sex, are children being educated that they do, in fact have a choice? It just seems to me that many high schoolers aren't aware that it's an option, not an expectation, to experiment with sex and drugs. While many teenagers will experiment, and it is fundamental to teach children about these issues from an early age, I think it is also important to highlight that kids have a choice, and that this is acceptable. Not in a religious or necessarily moral sense, but in the sense of relieving the pressure of expectation - this is what normal means. this is what statistically you SHOULD be doing etc.

Regardless of your point of view regarding the legality of drugs, or whether sex should be age-restricted, I think that adolescents should have it emphasised that saying no is valid as an option. I think it important that they also be taught how to say no, and how to recognise manipulation, from their peer groups, the media, etc.

abstinence ONLY classes are crap. but abstinence should be promoted if only to counter the pervasive cultural message that you SHOULD be having sex.

abstinence itself is a personal choice. and its a great one because you can be asbtinent right up until the time you decide to have sex.

abstinence ONLY classes are crap. but abstinence should be promoted if only to counter the pervasive cultural message that you SHOULD be having sex.

abstinence itself is a personal choice. and its a great one because you can be asbtinent right up until the time you decide to have sex.

Oh see, I could have used so many fewer words to make my point :(

"If you have sex, your penis falls off, and into an alternate dimension where dogs will eat it."

Anyone watch that Family Guy episode yet?

No. But now I want to. Thanks.

Oh see, I could have used so many fewer words to make my point :(

lol

but yours was so elegant!

nsg has trained me in the quick-and-dirty posting method (since few people read long posts and fewer yet respond to them--and those that do tend to slice them up into little bits and make my brain hurt)

I'd rather teenagers be doing this stuff so that hopefully one day that annoying creep who has never lived will be extinct:)

lol

but yours was so elegant!

nsg has trained me in the quick-and-dirty posting method (since few people read long posts and fewer yet respond to them--and those that do tend to slice them up into little bits and make my brain hurt)

I've never been called elegant before *goes all red and shy*.

That technique is something I imagine I will pick up fairly quickly around here.

"If you have sex, your penis falls off, and into an alternate dimension where dogs will eat it."

Anyone watch that Family Guy episode yet?

Yes, but I've grown weary of Family Guy. I guess you can only expect so much from Manatee.

As a lifestyle, I wouldn't recommend it, it's not exactly healthy. Neither physically nor mentally.

As an option for a teenage who doesn't really feel ready yet? Definitely.
I can't honestly say that I ever met a teen who felt that sex was something that was expected of them by society. Now, peer pressure is another issue...
But then again, that's always been there. And it's never ever of benefit to the individual to give in to it, regardless if they're being pressured to having sex without really wanting to or to not have sex when they really feel they want to.

As a lifestyle, I wouldn't recommend it, it's not exactly healthy. Neither physically nor mentally.

As an option for a teenage who doesn't really feel ready yet? Definitely.
I can't honestly say that I ever met a teen who felt that sex was something that was expected of them by society. Now, peer pressure is another issue...
But then again, that's always been there. And it's never ever of benefit to the individual to give in to it, regardless if they're being pressured to having sex without really wanting to or to not have sex when they really feel they want to.

There's something to be said for peer pressure, but in the end it all comes down to the individual. Peer pressure only goes so far. I say this because I'm constantly pressured by several friends into trying one-night stands, but I'm not having any of it because I'm really not that kind of person. Yes, peer pressure can have an effect on you. But it's your fault if you decide to "give in" and do something you'll probably regret. You've really got nobody to blame but yourself.

That said, I'm not exactly a fan of abstinence or abstinence education.

If the person themselves chooses abstinence, it's a valid lifestyle choice.
If it is imposed from outside, whether in school programs (ugh) or by familial or community pressures, it's doomed to failure.

You also have to take into account the media's image of today's youth. All the young girls on nickelodeon and disney and the like dress like sluts IMHO. And that Jamie Lynn Spears thats 17 and getting pregnant, isn't she supposed to be a role model?

Bottom line, I think media and peer pressure have a lot to do with it younger people making poor choices. I'm 22 and when I was in junior high there wasn't even a 10th of the girls dressed like they are today, it's sickening.

Edit: Yes abstinence is a valid lifestyle choice lol, just didn't take that route with my life, but to each their own.

It just seems to me that many high schoolers aren't aware that it's an option, not an expectation, to experiment with sex and drugs.

Why do you think so?

Certainly they're not being taught any such thing in the classroom, where even the more liberal courses are pretty absolutist about drug abstinence and encouraging about sexual abstinence.

Yes, but I've grown weary of Family Guy. I guess you can only expect so much from Manatee.
Guess they need to throw some new idea balls into the tank. ;)

If the person themselves chooses abstinence, it's a valid lifestyle choice.
If it is imposed from outside, whether in school programs (ugh) or by familial or community pressures, it's doomed to failure.
^^ This.

And I agree with Ashmoria as well (which hardly needs saying).

Personally, I think public schools should not be teaching lifestyles, but should be teaching respect for lifestyle choices, including the choice of abstinence as well as others.

abstinence is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice. For, you know...other people.

Not me though.

They do teach abstinance in my school. Not hardcore, but its like...

"Now, remember, condoms can prevent you from getting pregnant. But the only thing that works all the time is not having sex!"

"Many sexually tranmistted diseases are not curable. The best way to not get them is to not have sex until you are married!"

stuff like that. It's rather like a running gag, to be honest.

They do teach abstinance in my school. Not hardcore, but its like...

"Now, remember, condoms can prevent you from getting pregnant. But the only thing that works all the time is not having sex!"

"Many sexually tranmistted diseases are not curable. The best way to not get them is to not have sex until you are married!"

stuff like that. It's rather like a running gag, to be honest.
Until you find out the person you married has an STD :p.

Until you find out the person you married has an STD :p.

But that's onpossible!

abstinence ONLY classes are crap. but abstinence should be promoted if only to counter the pervasive cultural message that you SHOULD be having sex.

abstinence itself is a personal choice. and its a great one because you can be asbtinent right up until the time you decide to have sex.

Re: Second paragraph...Brilliant!!

BTW, someone brought up peer pressure? A fat person walking on a dock? That kind of peer pressure?

Until you find out the person you married has an STD :p.

or you dont have sex until you are married but AFTER you get married you have sex with a stranger who has an std.

being married doesnt save you from the results of your bad behavior or the bad behavior of others.

abstinence is a perfectly valid lifestyle choice. For, you know...other people.

Not me though.

^ This.

Although it certainly was a valid lifestyle choice for me in high school, when I genuinely wasn't ready for sexy-stuff.

It's a valid choice when you're given other options. It's a load of horse manure when you're told it's the only path you could possibly take.

I reckon that abstinence is as valid, or more valid, a method of cutting down on unwanted pregancies and STIs, but trying to teach young people that they shouldn't have sex full stop is a poor idea.

Tell people that they can just not have sex, but also that if they're going to do the deed, then it's at least wise to have protection.

It's a valid choice when you're given other options. It's a load of horse manure when you're told it's the only path you could possibly take.

Well, no-one wants you reproducing, so abstinence is your only choice... :p

No-one wants me reproducing either, but its a little late for that...

nsg has trained me in the quick-and-dirty posting method (since few people read long posts and fewer yet respond to them--and those that do tend to slice them up into little bits and make my brain hurt)

a hobby of mine. sorry for making your brain hurt in the past Ashmoria.

I agree with you. Abstinence as a lifestyle choice is ok, but it shouldn't be the only option presented to people.

however, if one chooses Abstinence, others should respect that as well as their lifestyle choices should be respected by those practicing Abstinence.

Well, I think it's important that you inform kids that abstinence is the only way to truly be 100% safe from STIs and pregnancy. Provide them with unbiased, factual information regarding both sides of the issue and the let them make that decision for themselves. It is not our responsibility to attempt to impose abstinence on kids, but it is our responsibility to make sure they know what they're getting in to before they make a decision one way or another.

It might also help to teach kids that it's their decision first and foremost, and that nobody should pressure them or coerce them in to acting one way or another. We seriously need to start raising responsible young adults instead of swarms of spoiled, inept manchildren.

Sure it is, but you'll never get laid with that kind of attitude.

Well, no-one wants you reproducing, so abstinence is your only choice... :p

Too bad! *holds up left hand* Look! I have a magical ring! I'm married; open invitation to fart out as many screaming brats as I want, with totally and completely unlimited sex. :)

....that went a little to far, didn't it?

Re: Second paragraph...Brilliant!!

BTW, someone brought up peer pressure? A fat person walking on a dock? That kind of peer pressure?

No, I was thinking more of the "My entire church group will think I am a ho" pressure.

Because, of course, you know how that works... the girls are expected to be abstinent, or they're whores. The boys are expected to rut constantly, or they're losers.

I'm married; open invitation to fart out as many screaming brats as I want, with totally and completely unlimited sex. :)]

Fart out? Darlin', if you're using THAT hole and ONLY that hole, having kids may be a bit more difficult than you think...

Fart out? Darlin', if you're using THAT hole and ONLY that hole, having kids may be a bit more difficult than you think...

lmao
.
.

Does it count if it's forced abstinence?

Does it count if it's forced abstinence?

Only if you're claiming to be abstinent as an elaborate 'hard to get' thing.

Only if you're claiming to be abstinent as an elaborate 'hard to get' thing.

You know, I am honestly surprised just how many people do that... confuses the hell out of me.

Sure it is, but you'll never get laid with that kind of attitude.

That's pretty much the point of it, don't you think?

Only if you're claiming to be abstinent as an elaborate 'hard to get' thing.

No, it's more of a "can't get a date" thing.

You know, I am honestly surprised just how many people do that... confuses the hell out of me.
I figure one person claimed they were doing it and it worked, to get their friends to stop teasing them about not getting any, and the lie was so convincing the people actually started trying it. People are stupid, you see.
That's pretty much the point of it, don't you think?
Pretty much.

No, it's more of a "can't get a date" thing.

Granted, abstinence is cheaper than procuring the services of a prostitute. But is it worth the frustration?

I look at abstinence education like I look at courtroom tactics. "I didn't kill him....but if I did it was justifiable."

"don't have sex...but if you do, here's how to protect yourself"

Fart out? Darlin', if you're using THAT hole and ONLY that hole, having kids may be a bit more difficult than you think...

Literally I agree with you, metaphorically, I smack you over the head for failing to read between the lines. *nods*

Literally I agree with you, metaphorically, I smack you over the head for failing to read between the lines. *nods*

:salute:
I aim to please.

You can't really force abstinence on anybody, you can just say you'd be better off this way. But then again what good is saying it if the kids your teaching have no idea what self respect really is? IMHO that's the main problem.

Fart out? Darlin', if you're using THAT hole and ONLY that hole, having kids may be a bit more difficult than you think...
That's the problem with abstinence-only education, right there. ;)

You can't really force abstinence on anybody, you can just say you'd be better off this way. But then again what good is saying it if the kids your teaching have no idea what self respect really is? IMHO that's the main problem.

I'm not understanding the connection between abstinence and self-respect.

I'm not understanding the connection between abstinence and self-respect.

If you have sex, you don't respect yourself. Duh :rolleyes:

Abstinence is fine, but it's only a "choice" to a certain point. Still, schools would do well to show kids that abstinence really has no effect on the rest of your life and that you can be perfectly happy without drugs or sex or whatever else you're abstaining from using/doing. They don't do that, though, do they? It's been a long time, but 'abstain or risk disease,' was the message when I was in school.

I think this point is stressed pretty hard in every classroom I've seen. Be an individual, make your own choice, do what's right for you, know the consequences... that's fine and healthy. I encourage that, absolutely. I encourage individuality in many areas, and doing something because someone expects it of you--whether it's having sex or not having it, doing drugs or not doing them--is not the answer.

You can't really force abstinence on anybody, you can just say you'd be better off this way. But then again what good is saying it if the kids your teaching have no idea what self respect really is? IMHO that's the main problem.

I disagree, chum. The problem is not a lack of self respect, its having so much that young highschool gents think they are gods of seduction. And, unfortunately, some females let them get away with. Can't really speak for them, though.

Abstinence is fine, but it's only a "choice" to a certain point. Still, schools would do well to show kids that abstinence really has no effect on the rest of your life and that you can be perfectly happy without drugs or sex or whatever else you're abstaining from using/doing. They don't do that, though, do they? It's been a long time, but 'abstain or risk disease,' was the message when I was in school.

They try. The only difference is, its not longer "abstain or risk disease", its "abstain, wear a condom, or risk disease".

They try. The only difference is, its not longer "abstain or risk disease", its "abstain, wear a condom, or risk disease".

Well, it's most accurately "abstain, wear a condom and greatly reduce or eliminate risk of disease and pregnancy, or risk disease."...

...but that's just nitpicking. Hopefully kids are smart enough to realize that without it needing to be stated, but I'm not confident.

Well, it's most accurately "abstain, wear a condom and greatly reduce or eliminate risk of disease and pregnancy, or risk disease."...

...but that's just nitpicking. Hopefully kids are smart enough to realize that without it needing to be stated, but I'm not confident.


meh, neither am I. Many....if not most...of my year are fucking morons when it comes to that. Hence all the pregnancies.

:salute:
I aim to please.

I'd aim too... after all, I wouldn't want to hit the 'between' area. :p

I hear that could be rather... painful... :eek:

What I meant by self respect was that kids won't think enough to either a) abstain or b) wear a condom if they decide to not abstain. Self respect in the sense of taking care of their bodies. Same with self respect and drugs.

"If you have sex, your penis falls off, and into an alternate dimension where dogs will eat it."

Anyone watch that Family Guy episode yet?

I love the part where Peter is wearing a chastity belt... Classic.

I don't have a problem with the idea of promoting abstinence as one of many choices available.

meh, neither am I. Many....if not most...of my year are fucking morons when it comes to that. Hence all the pregnancies.Fucking morons indeed.

I don't have a problem with the idea of promoting abstinence as one of many choices available.

This, basically.

Why do you think so?

Certainly they're not being taught any such thing in the classroom, where even the more liberal courses are pretty absolutist about drug abstinence and encouraging about sexual abstinence.

I guess from my experiences teaching, and knowing a lot of young people from my sport, they often remark that "Everyone expects me to do it (drugs/drinking/sex) so I should be." I tend to think that teaching kids to say no and that it is the right thing to do is not the best approach when you are also giving them statistics showing that a majority of teens do those things, and when the media promotes television shows and media stories etc as the usual rather than just one of a range of choices that teens make.

I guess abstinence may be the wrong word, perhaps teaching kids that no is an option that is valid and normal and acceptable, and not just to be righteous or good or moral. I don't believe that adolescents or anyone necessarily need to be abstinent per se, but more that refusal is a choice, both generally and in specific situations. I think that perhaps kids feel a lot more pressure to fit a certain image of teenagers, which perpetuates that image in media and statistics and the minds of the general public, which leads to more pressure.

What I meant by self respect was that kids won't think enough to either a) abstain or b) wear a condom if they decide to not abstain. Self respect in the sense of taking care of their bodies. Same with self respect and drugs.
Oh, OK. That makes sense.

It's a valid choice when you're given other options. It's a load of horse manure when you're told it's the only path you could possibly take.

I tend to agree.

How is it a lifestyle?

Is having sex a 'lifestyle'?

It's a lifestyle choice. To be abstinent in certain situations is a choice you make which impacts on your life, and on the way you are perceived by others. To have sex impacts on your life and the perception that is formed of you.

For instance, I make a personal choice not to take illicit drugs. Part of that is fear, not of the health consequences, but the legal ones. A lot of my friends however, have a perception that this means that I will judge them for choosing to take drugs, or that there is something "abnormal" about me, particularly since I am not religious (I am agnostic). I find it hard to break down this stereotypical view that I must be either overly religious, or a judgemental person because of my personal choice.

I think that if the choice of abstinence was taught as a legitimate choice or option, there would be less of this preconception regarding those who make those choices.

I think that if the choice of abstinence was taught as a legitimate choice or option, there would be less of this preconception regarding those who make those choices.

But it's not really a legitimate choice or lifestyle, it's more or less a component of a religious lifestyle, because without a religious argument to back up your position of why you should not do it.

In other words, what's your reasoning to back up your position?

I think it is a legitimate choice. Trying to ensure that it is the only focus of education on the topics, just saying "don't do these things" without a thorough exploration of the consequences, the pros and cons of doing something, however, acts to reduce informed choice. Many people might then end up doing something unwise through ignorance that they might if properly educated have decided not to do.

I think it is a legitimate choice. Trying to ensure that it is the only focus of education on the topics, just saying "don't do these things" without a thorough exploration of the consequences, the pros and cons of doing something, however, acts to reduce informed choice. Many people might then end up doing something unwise through ignorance that they might if properly educated have decided not to do.

its certainly a legitimate choice but really, its only a choice until you decide to have sex. as the vast majority of people do sooner or later.

its certainly a legitimate choice but really, its only a choice until you decide to have sex. as the vast majority of people do sooner or later.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that once you've had sex once you are somehow obliged to do it again? :confused:

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that once you've had sex once you are somehow obliged to do it again? :confused:

no what i mean is that abstinence is only abstenence until you have sex.

and since the vast majority of those who are abstinent today will have sex in the future that its only a choice until you dont choose it any more

and that you really dont know when that will change. some hot guy comes along and ...well...why not throw caution to the wind?

then you have the problem of what abstinence entails? does one keep totally away from other people romantically? just how physical can one be and still be abstinent? what about masturbation? does sex with yourself count as sex?

its all a shell game where you claim the moral high ground only up until you fall off of it.

no what i mean is that abstinence is only abstenence until you have sex.

and since the vast majority of those who are abstinent today will have sex in the future that its only a choice until you dont choose it any more

and that you really dont know when that will change. some hot guy comes along and ...well...why not throw caution to the wind?

then you have the problem of what abstinence entails? does one keep totally away from other people romantically? just how physical can one be and still be abstinent? what about masturbation? does sex with yourself count as sex?

its all a shell game where you claim the moral high ground only up until you fall off of it.

Ah. Sorry. I see where you are coming from now. I'd have to agree to a large extent. I would say that its a valid choice for whatever personal reasons people might have, but that it should *not* be taught that it is immoral and that you are one of Satan's evil minions if you choose not to abstain! And I do agree that for many people its only a temporary stage, and that it is perhaps unwise to label yourself as such at an early age when you don't know who you will encounter in the future. I suppose what I'm arguing for is that teens should not feel pressured either to have sex or *not* to have sex from an early age. Teach them about the precautions they should take if they choose to, by all means, but don't try and make their decision for them. Which I think is more or less what you were arguing also.

Ah. Sorry. I see where you are coming from now. I'd have to agree to a large extent. I would say that its a valid choice for whatever personal reasons people might have, but that it should *not* be taught that it is immoral and that you are one of Satan's evil minions if you choose not to abstain! And I do agree that for many people its only a temporary stage, and that it is perhaps unwise to label yourself as such at an early age when you don't know who you will encounter in the future. I suppose what I'm arguing for is that teens should not feel pressured either to have sex or *not* to have sex from an early age. Teach them about the precautions they should take if they choose to, by all means, but don't try and make their decision for them. Which I think is more or less what you were arguing also.

its politically impossible (in the US at least) to have meaningful sex education in schools.

we dont need abstinence education so much as a discussion of WHEN to have sex and when NOT to. what ....requirements.. must be met before its a good idea? what sexual practices/circumstances are more stupid than others?

too often we are so focused on virginity (with school aged people) that we forget that there is a whole lifetime of sex that occurs after that first sexual experience and that we need some guidelines of when its OK to have sex AGAIN.

But it's not really a legitimate choice or lifestyle, it's more or less a component of a religious lifestyle, because without a religious argument to back up your position of why you should not do it.

In other words, what's your reasoning to back up your position?

The first part of that post doesn't really make sense to me. I think what you are saying though is that if you are not religious, there is no reason for you not to engage in behaviours like sex/drug and alcohol experimentation etc.

Well that all depends on whether you are religious or not. I know many non-religious people, myself included who choose abstinence in some areas (as I explained in the edit to that post). What I'm getting at is that so often we say to kids in school, "You should not do x, but x% of you are, so its expected that you will too." I suppose I'm saying, as Ashmoria outlined below, that adolescents should be taught that there are options other than doing it because everyone else is, which I believe is the message of sex and drug education, abstinence-only or not.

My reasoning is that it seems to be an expectation that kids will have sex/drink underage/do drugs and that this, along with peer pressure, increases the pressure on kids to engage in these behaviours. There should be a message that choice is an option.

its politically impossible (in the US at least) to have meaningful sex education in schools.

we dont need abstinence education so much as a discussion of WHEN to have sex and when NOT to. what ....requirements.. must be met before its a good idea? what sexual practices/circumstances are more stupid than others?

too often we are so focused on virginity (with school aged people) that we forget that there is a whole lifetime of sex that occurs after that first sexual experience and that we need some guidelines of when its OK to have sex AGAIN.

I must admit a slight ignorance with regards to policies in the USA. I'm guessing that their argument is "if you teach them about sex they're more likely to have sex." Of course, many teenagers have such strong desires that they'll have sex whatever they're taught. And if we work on that fairly obvious basis yeh, I guess it would seem fairly clear that teaching should be about how to avoid rape, and about the precautions that are available to avoid STDs and unwanted pregnancies. I can see both sides on most issues, but here the "teach abstinence only" view just seems plain wrong.

But it's not really a legitimate choice or lifestyle, it's more or less a component of a religious lifestyle, because without a religious argument to back up your position of why you should not do it.

In other words, what's your reasoning to back up your position?

Why isn't it a legitimate way to run your life? or choice? or lifestyle?

Why do you assume that the only people who choose to be abstinent is religious? Why do you have to be religious to be abstinent?

And even if one person decides that they want to be abstinent because of their religious beliefs then why does it matter?

My reasoning is that it seems to be an expectation that kids will have sex/drink underage/do drugs and that this, along with peer pressure, increases the pressure on kids to engage in these behaviours. There should be a message that choice is an option.

Hence why i bring up the self respect point. Every kid, no matter boy or girl, thinks that things won't happen to them. That and they need some solid role models in mass media, but I doubt that would happen.

Why isn't it a legitimate way to run your life? or choice? or lifestyle?

Why do you assume that the only people who choose to be abstinent is religious? Why do you have to be religious to be abstinent?

And even if one person decides that they want to be abstinent because of their religious beliefs then why does it matter?

Hey that's what I thought. :salute:

For the last generation.

I think you shouldn't hand your children to government indoctrinators. If you want your kids to know something tell them yourself. Disengaged submissive {mumbled pejoratives fade until silent}

For the last generation.

I think you shouldn't hand your children to government indoctrinators. If you want your kids to know something tell them yourself. Disengaged submissive {mumbled pejoratives fade until silent}

It's called home schooling.

It's called home schooling.

No, it's just called a conversation.

No, it's just called a conversation.

No because you will still be sending them to the government institutions, in order to teach them without sending them to a government institution you need to home school them.

No because you will still be sending them to the government institutions, in order to teach them without sending them to a government institution you need to home school them.

I don't think that's what was meant. My parents successfully countered my schools' attempts to bend me to the will of my corporate masters by having all kinds of conversations with me. It had nothing to do with formal home schooling, but with practical demonstrations of stuff I was being taught or answers to questions I came up with in the course of whatever we were all doing.

Too many parents allow others to raise their children, and those others have ulterior motives, or even worse, an absence of any kind of motive. My parents made a questioner out of me, and they only needed to talk to me every so often to do it. I'm grateful that they did, otherwise I'd be the kind of person that keeps reality TV in the ratings. Of course, I'd be happier not knowing some of the stuff I've learned, but I don't think the kind of happiness that comes from deliberate ignorance is the kind I want anyway.

Which is why I would never support abstinence as anything but one of a set of options rather than the only option.

Choice is a beautiful thing. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone could just say 'yes' or 'no' each time by considering what they actually wanted?

On a vaguely related note, someone really needs to do something to stem the tide of twelve-year-olds angsting that OMG I HAVEN'T HAD SEX YET, THEREFORE I WILL DIE OLD AND ALONE. It's like the average age of losing your virginity is about nine in their minds, or something. Oh yeah, and somehow sex=INSTANT TRUE LOOOVE. :rolleyes:

I don't think that's what was meant. My parents successfully countered my schools' attempts to bend me to the will of my corporate masters by having all kinds of conversations with me. It had nothing to do with formal home schooling, but with practical demonstrations of stuff I was being taught or answers to questions I came up with in the course of whatever we were all doing.

Too many parents allow others to raise their children, and those others have ulterior motives, or even worse, an absence of any kind of motive. My parents made a questioner out of me, and they only needed to talk to me every so often to do it. I'm grateful that they did, otherwise I'd be the kind of person that keeps reality TV in the ratings. Of course, I'd be happier not knowing some of the stuff I've learned, but I don't think the kind of happiness that comes from deliberate ignorance is the kind I want anyway.

Which is why I would never support abstinence as anything but one of a set of options rather than the only option.

Oh yes I am sure that is what he may have meant I was taking the comment to the extreme.

And yes you are correct in your statements it was something which always annoyed me how teachers would try and twist my ideals to what they wanted us to, when handing up assignments I wrote what they wanted me to in order to get a good grade it was never what I really thought.

My parents did the same to me by having general conversations despite what the schools wanted me to think, it is what I do to my son also and try to give him a bit more balanced view, for example my son came home the other day from school and was talking about climate change and said that his teacher has said that if we continue then by 2050 all of Australia's current coastline will be 50 metres under water which means that only the tops of the skyscrapers will be visible. I had a talk to hi about that one and will have a talk to the teacher at some point too.

Oh yes I am sure that is what he may have meant I was taking the comment to the extreme.

And yes you are correct in your statements it was something which always annoyed me how teachers would try and twist my ideals to what they wanted us to, when handing up assignments I wrote what they wanted me to in order to get a good grade it was never what I really thought.

My parents did the same to me by having general conversations despite what the schools wanted me to think, it is what I do to my son also and try to give him a bit more balanced view, for example my son came home the other day from school and was talking about climate change and said that his teacher has said that if we continue then by 2050 all of Australia's current coastline will be 50 metres under water which means that only the tops of the skyscrapers will be visible. I had a talk to hi about that one and will have a talk to the teacher at some point too.

Good grief, no kidding you will! 50 meters? I want what she's smoking. The highest sea level rise I've ever read about by 2100, and this as a worst case scenario, is 20 feet (6.1m). Hyperbole in the service of a noble cause is still wrong.

The first part of that post doesn't really make sense to me. I think what you are saying though is that if you are not religious, there is no reason for you not to engage in behaviours like sex/drug and alcohol experimentation etc.



But you see, saying that your abstaining from sex suggests that, at some point, you will have sex, which in most contexts is marriage, but that idea in and of itself is a religious idea.

I mean, lets be honest, when will you stop abstaining from sex? when you met Mr. Right? Even that smacks of religious determinism, because you don't know when you will meet this person, just like you don't know when, or if, you will get married, so it ultimately boils down to a faith based issue.

Now, it's possibly you never want to have sex, just tell people you're not interested.


Well that all depends on whether you are religious or not. I know many non-religious people, myself included who choose abstinence in some areas (as I explained in the edit to that post).
But you see, you're using the wrong word; not doing drugs isn't abstaining from them, it's 'not doing drugs'. By saying Abstain, you're implying one day you will go out and smoke a joint or nine.

My reasoning is that it seems to be an expectation that kids will have sex/drink underage/do drugs and that this, along with peer pressure, increases the pressure on kids to engage in these behaviours. There should be a message that choice is an option.
And Statistically, it would seem that kids do in fact have sex, drink underage, do drugs, etc. The point of sex ed and such isn't (at least it shouldn't be) just to tell the kids not to do it, with lots of finger wagging and such, but rather, to realize that it is very likely those kids will end up doing that stuff, and it's probably a good idea to tell them upfront about the ins and outs of the subject, so they don't, hopefully, make mistakes.


Why do you assume that the only people who choose to be abstinent is religious? Why do you have to be religious to be abstinent?

see above.

And even if one person decides that they want to be abstinent because of their religious beliefs then why does it matter?
It doesn't, but whining that people keep thinking you're religious because you're doing what is clearly a religious practice, on NSGs, is pointless.

But you see, saying that your abstaining from sex suggests that, at some point, you will have sex, which in most contexts is marriage, but that idea in and of itself is a religious idea.

Or it could be that you're abstaining because you're not emotionally ready at 12-18 years old. I certainly wasn't. Therefore I abstained. Nothing to do with religion as I happen to not be religious and was raised in a very liberal household, just I see the sex act as something more than a pleasurable experience between 2 random people.

I mean, lets be honest, when will you stop abstaining from sex? when you met Mr. Right? Even that smacks of religious determinism, because you don't know when you will meet this person, just like you don't know when, or if, you will get married, so it ultimately boils down to a faith based issue.

I stopped abstaining from sex when I met someone who I wouldn't regret it with. Not Mr. Right, but not Mr. Wrong. Someone who was prepared to wait until I was comfortable and respected me as a person, not just as a hookup.

Now, it's possibly you never want to have sex, just tell people you're not interested.

See above.


But you see, you're using the wrong word; not doing drugs isn't abstaining from them, it's 'not doing drugs'. By saying Abstain, you're implying one day you will go out and smoke a joint or nine.

Well that is a possibility. If marijuana were legal it is something I would want to try. Now, I happen to be a wuss who is scared of being arrested (regardless of the fact that it is highly unlikely, it scares the shit out of me) and therefore choose not to do drugs.

Also, see below definition of abstinence:

1. forbearance from any indulgence of appetite, esp. from the use of alcoholic beverages: total abstinence.
2. any self-restraint, self-denial, or forbearance.
3. Economics. the conserving of current income in order to build up capital or savings.
4. the state of being without a drug, as alcohol or heroin, on which one is dependent.

No mention of with intent to do in future. Explain to me where the definition of abstinence presupposes a likelihood of engaging in drug-taking in the future?


And Statistically, it would seem that kids do in fact have sex, drink underage, do drugs, etc. The point of sex ed and such isn't (at least it shouldn't be) just to tell the kids not to do it, with lots of finger wagging and such, but rather, to realize that it is very likely those kids will end up doing that stuff, and it's probably a good idea to tell them upfront about the ins and outs of the subject, so they don't, hopefully, make mistakes.

And I very clearly stated that in the OP and consistently throughout this discussion that abstinence-only or "Don't do it because it's wrong." approaches don't work. My point is that I think that time needs to be given to teaching kids more about when they are ready and when they are clearly not ready to engage in these behaviours, and emphasising that no is an acceptable choice, regardless of statistics, media sensationalism or peer pressure.


It doesn't, but whining that people keep thinking you're religious because you're doing what is clearly a religious practice, on NSGs, is pointless.

Please show me where in any of this I have stated that I engage in abstinence, besides with regard to the taking of drugs, since I don't recall stating that anywhere. You clearly have not actually read the responses I have posted, and seem to labour under the misapprehension that I have some kind of agenda which I clearly do not. Noone else seems to have made that mistake.

Too many parents allow others to raise their children, and those others have ulterior motives, or even worse, an absence of any kind of motive. My parents made a questioner out of me, and they only needed to talk to me every so often to do it. I'm grateful that they did, otherwise I'd be the kind of person that keeps reality TV in the ratings. Of course, I'd be happier not knowing some of the stuff I've learned, but I don't think the kind of happiness that comes from deliberate ignorance is the kind I want anyway.

Which is why I would never support abstinence as anything but one of a set of options rather than the only option.


I agree completely. My mother raised me to always question the status quo. And all she had to do was talk to me, and tell me about different points of view on topics. It made me a very media-literate individual well before I got to high school. That coupled with a complete ban on anything which didn't add to my knowledge or understanding of the world in some way on television made me the person I am today.

But, when it comes to drugs and sex, are children being educated that they do, in fact have a choice? It just seems to me that many high schoolers aren't aware that it's an option, not an expectation, to experiment with sex and drugs. While many teenagers will experiment, and it is fundamental to teach children about these issues from an early age, I think it is also important to highlight that kids have a choice, and that this is acceptable. Not in a religious or necessarily moral sense, but in the sense of relieving the pressure of expectation - this is what normal means. this is what statistically you SHOULD be doing etc.


Generally, I'm not in favour of schools (or any government agency) telling people who they can and can't sleep with. What people do in their bedrooms is up to them. There shouldn't be a moral element to the way these things are taught.

However leaving kids uninformed will only make things worse in the long term, and lead to bullying in school. That being so, they should be taught simply as a point of fact, and one of the facts taught should be that not everyone has sex at xx years old, and that it makes no difference if you do or don't (except that if you do then protect yourself, obviously, and what your protecting yourself from). Also, they should teach that different sexualities, and lack thereof, exist, and that's just the way it is. As it stands, most gay, bi and particularly asexual kids get utterly screwed up in school.

Generally, I'm not in favour of schools (or any government agency) telling people who they can and can't sleep with. What people do in their bedrooms is up to them. There shouldn't be a moral element to the way these things are taught.

However leaving kids uninformed will only make things worse in the long term, and lead to bullying in school. That being so, they should be taught simply as a point of fact, and one of the facts taught should be that not everyone has sex at xx years old, and that it makes no difference if you do or don't (except that if you do then protect yourself, obviously, and what your protecting yourself from). Also, they should teach that different sexualities, and lack thereof, exist, and that's just the way it is. As it stands, most gay, bi and particularly asexual kids get utterly screwed up in school.


I agree completely. I'm not arguing that we should by any means be telling kids who they can or cannot sleep with or advocating a moral view, merely that it is completely okay not to engage in behaviours if you don't want to. Talking to the kids I taught, they got the impression from a program that focussed on statistics and telling them not to do it that it was normal behaviour. I think a paradigm shift is in order, more towards teaching that there are multiple options and choices available with regard to sexuality, drugs and drinking and that one is not more or less valid than another.

Or it could be that you're abstaining because you're not emotionally ready at 12-18 years old. I certainly wasn't. Therefore I abstained. Nothing to do with religion as I happen to not be religious and was raised in a very liberal household, just I see the sex act as something more than a pleasurable experience between 2 random people.

But that's not a lifestyle.



I stopped abstaining from sex when I met someone who I wouldn't regret it with. Not Mr. Right, but not Mr. Wrong. Someone who was prepared to wait until I was comfortable and respected me as a person, not just as a hookup.

How can you ask if it's a lifestyle then?



And I very clearly stated that in the OP and consistently throughout this discussion that abstinence-only or "Don't do it because it's wrong." approaches don't work. My point is that I think that time needs to be given to teaching kids more about when they are ready and when they are clearly not ready to engage in these behaviours, and emphasising that no is an acceptable choice, regardless of statistics, media sensationalism or peer pressure.

Yes, and in doing so you fall into the trap where all you talk about is no as an acceptable choice.

I'm just wondering about NSG's opinions regarding abstinence education in classrooms. I'm not here referring to the indoctrination via abstinence-only programs run by zealots - we all know those don't work.

But, when it comes to drugs and sex, are children being educated that they do, in fact have a choice? It just seems to me that many high schoolers aren't aware that it's an option, not an expectation, to experiment with sex and drugs. While many teenagers will experiment, and it is fundamental to teach children about these issues from an early age, I think it is also important to highlight that kids have a choice, and that this is acceptable. Not in a religious or necessarily moral sense, but in the sense of relieving the pressure of expectation - this is what normal means. this is what statistically you SHOULD be doing etc.

Regardless of your point of view regarding the legality of drugs, or whether sex should be age-restricted, I think that adolescents should have it emphasised that saying no is valid as an option. I think it important that they also be taught how to say no, and how to recognise manipulation, from their peer groups, the media, etc.
Yep. I agree.

But that's not a lifestyle.

No it's not a lifestyle, it's a choice about how you lead your life.



How can you ask if it's a lifestyle then?

Because it was a choice I made regarding the way I led my life.



Yes, and in doing so you fall into the trap where all you talk about is no as an acceptable choice.

So by saying to teenagers, "Some people choose to have sex/do drugs/drink, some people don't. Within each of those, there are still a range of choices which are legitimate, and here are the things you need to consider about each choice." one is telling them that saying no is the only acceptable path? Not sure how I see that. I tend to think that life education should be about educating children about what choices are available and the issues surrounding each choice. I don't believe in scare tactics or imposing morality, but explaining the pros and cons of all options (and yes I think there are negatives to abstention for a range of reasons) and teaching kids about how to recognise what they personally are ready for, whether that be the choice to engage in a one night stand, drop E's at a party, come out of the closet, drink underage, or say no. I think that education programs that focus more on choice and empowering adolescents to make that choice are more likely to turn out critical, empowered adults who are not judgmental, but who make the right choices for the people that they are, and don't regret those choices.

Good grief, no kidding you will! 50 meters? I want what she's smoking. The highest sea level rise I've ever read about by 2100, and this as a worst case scenario, is 20 feet (6.1m). Hyperbole in the service of a noble cause is still wrong.

Yes 50 metres. I know, it is one of my pet hate when teachers make stuff up based on what they think they have heard or have read and some actually believe stuff like this. There is a parent-teacher night the second week back after the holidays finish so I will have one or two things to be saying to her.

But you see, saying that your abstaining from sex suggests that, at some point, you will have sex, which in most contexts is marriage, but that idea in and of itself is a religious idea.

I mean, lets be honest, when will you stop abstaining from sex? when you met Mr. Right? Even that smacks of religious determinism, because you don't know when you will meet this person, just like you don't know when, or if, you will get married, so it ultimately boils down to a faith based issue.

Now I will agree with you that may be a belief issue that does not mean it is a religious issue. Just because someone may say they will not have sex until they meet Mr/Mrs Right may be a question of faith as in they have faith that they will meet this person but that does not mean it is because of their religious beliefs.

It doesn't, but whining that people keep thinking you're religious because you're doing what is clearly a religious practice, on NSGs, is pointless.

You are still yet to explain why in order to decide means you must be religious rather than just deciding not to have sex until maybe you are married. As I said it is a matter of belief but that does not mean it is a matter of religion.

Who said anything about whining?