NationStates Jolt Archive

Hello generalites,

today I would like to ask the native speakers of English here to help me out with a couple of sentences, please. It really won't take too long and you'd be helping me tremendously!

I'm trying to establish whether the following examples are indeed well-formed English sentences. While one might not encounter them on a daily basis in the English language, I would like to know whether they are possible when the item placed at the front needs to be stressed; when the focus of the sentence needs to be shifted.

I've tried my best to manage on my own but since I'm no native speaker, there's always the chance to superimpose German grammar on English sentences which renders decision-making near impossible when it comes to this.

I have provided an answer template at the end of the list so you'd only have to C&P that and decide whether my examples are.

C Correct (No problem)
W Wrong (Big problem)
T Tolerable (Sounds odd but is okay)

Thank y'all very much, appreciate your effort! Hope that at least some of you are willing to help me out! Thanks again, appreciate your support!!!

The German Nightmare


Here come the examples:

(1) Criminals are always entitled to remain silent.
(2) Criminals should always be entitled to remain silent.

(3) Entitled to remain silent are criminals always.
(4) Entitled to remain silent should be criminals always.
(5) Entitled to remain silent should criminals always be.
(6) Entitled to remain silent criminals always are.
(7) Entitled to remain silent criminals should always be.

(8) To remain silent are criminals always entitled.
(9) To remain silent should be criminals always entitled.
(10) To remain silent should criminals always be entitled.
(11) To remain silent criminals are always entitled.
(12) To remain silent criminals should always be entitled.

(13) Remain silent are criminals always entitled to.
(14) Remain silent should be criminals always entitled to.
(15) Remain silent should criminals always be entitled to.
(16) Remain silent, criminals always are entitled to.
(17) Remain silent, criminals should always be entitled to.

(18) Silent are criminals always entitled to remain.
(19) Silent should be criminals always entitled to remain.
(20) Silent should criminals always be entitled to remain.
(21) Silent, criminals are always entitled to remain.
(22) Silent, criminals should always be entitled to remain.

(23) Always are criminals entitled to remain silent.
(24) Always should be criminals entitled to remain silent.
(25) Always should criminals be entitled to remain silent.
(26) Always, criminals are entitled to remain silent.
(27) Always, criminals should be entitled to remain silent.

(28) Many books has he read.
(29) His field must the farmer plow this morning.
(30) The whole day have they been happy.
(31) My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained.
(32) Watered his fields has the farmer this morning.
(33) Watered were his fields by the farmer this morning.
(34) Having a great time were they in Cancun.
(35) Happy have they been the whole day.
(36) Sullen might he look but deep within he is smiling.
(37) Sullen might he look but deep within smiling is he.
(38) All morning would he sit in class.
(39) Now might the time to act have come.
(40) In the backyard may the children play.
(41) On the moon can craters be seen.
(42) With their families should the winners celebrate.
(43) Throughout the years has he read many books.
(44) To Ireland has the boat delivered its cargo.

And here's the template to copy and paste:

(1)
(2)

(3)
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)

(8)
(9)
(10)
(11)
(12)

(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)
(17)

(18)
(19)
(20)
(21)
(22)

(23)
(24)
(25)
(26)
(27)

(28)
(29)
(30)
(31)
(32)
(33)
(34)
(35)
(36)
(37)
(38)
(39)
(40)
(41)
(42)
(43)
(44)

I just reread your post and saw the bit about changing word order for emphasis. I think this is why English makes liberal use of italics. You can change the emphasis somewhat with word positioning, but it's a complicated process with a limited number of acceptable arrangements.

Although I can certainly understand all of these, I marked most as Wrong because they simply sound so egregious. There were a few exceptions, such as "Many books has he read" which is a very antiquated sentence structure, but which can be used in some situations. A few of the sentences could be used as clauses, such as #38 ("All morning would he sit in class, staring forlornly out the window and wishing for Spring.) I was fairly generous with some of them; some of the ones I marked "T" make me cringe but aren't 100% wrong.

(1) T
(2) T

(3) W
(4) W
(5) W
(6) W
(7) W

(8) W
(9) W
(10) W
(11) W
(12) W

(13) W
(14) W
(15) W
(16) W
(17) W

(18) W
(19) W
(20) W
(21) W
(22) W

(23) T/W
(24) T/W
(25) T/W
(26) T/W
(27) T/W

(28) T
(29) W
(30) W
(31) T
(32) W
(33) W
(34) W
(35) T
(36) T/C (needs a comma)
(37) W
(38) T (as a clause starting a sentence)
(39) W
(40) T
(41) W
(42) W
(43) W
(44) W

Hey Ryadn,

thanks for your help! The use of italics is indeed a good one - although impossible when the sentences are spoken...

Oh, come on, guys! Please?

Oh, come on, guys! Please?
Pretty much agree with Ryadn's answers. There a couple of sentences that ALMOST sound like they could go somewhere, but they are missing a lot of information that would complete them.

Mainly it sounds like you tried to make everything sound like how Yoda would say it though.

Pretty much agree with Ryadn's answers. There a couple of sentences that ALMOST sound like they could go somewhere, but they are missing a lot of information that would complete them.

Mainly it sounds like you tried to make everything sound like how Yoda would say it though.
Thanks for your reply!

It's funny you should say that. Yoda does indeed make use of inversion and preposing constructions.

"Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can."

Inversion with fronted adjective: Strong is Vader. (Vader is strong.)
Imperative inversion construction (addressee = subject): Mind what you have learned. (You mind what you have learned.)
Preposing: Save you it can. (It can save you.)

That's exactly why I was so interested in those examples - whether they are indeed possible when some part is stressed by moving it to the front of the sentence...

(BTW, Yoda does speak correct English. It sounds funny, but it ain't wrong!)

Here ya go:

(1) T
(2) C
(3) T
(4) W
(5) T
(6) W
(7) T
(8) W
(9) W
(10) W
(11) T
(12) W

(13) W
(14) W
(15) W
(16) T
(17) T
(18) T
(19) W
(20) T
(21) T
(22) T
(23) T
(24) W
(25) T
(26) T
(27) T

(28) C
(29) C
(30) C
(31) C
(32) T
(33) C
(34) W
(35) T
(36) C
(37) T
(38) C
(39) C
(40) T
(41) T
(42) T
(43) T
(44) T

And if it helps, I'm a native Scots English speaker.

Here ya go:
Thank you!!!
And if it helps, I'm a native Scots English speaker.
It does. :) Greetings to Glasgow!



Keep it coming, please!

(1) C Criminals are always entitled to remain silent.
(2) C Criminals should always be entitled to remain silent.

(3) W Entitled to remain silent are criminals always.
(4) W Entitled to remain silent should be criminals always.
(5) C/T Entitled to remain silent should criminals always be.
(6) W/T Entitled to remain silent criminals always are.
(7) T Entitled to remain silent criminals should always be.

(8) T To remain silent are criminals always entitled.
(9) W To remain silent should be criminals always entitled.
(10) T To remain silent should criminals always be entitled.
(11) C To remain silent criminals are always entitled.
(12) C To remain silent criminals should always be entitled.

(13) W Remain silent are criminals always entitled to.
(14) W Remain silent should be criminals always entitled to.
(15) W Remain silent should criminals always be entitled to.
(16) W Remain silent, criminals always are entitled to.
(17) W Remain silent, criminals should always be entitled to.



(18) T/W Silent are criminals always entitled to remain.
(19) W Silent should be criminals always entitled to remain.
(20) W Silent should criminals always be entitled to remain.
(21) W Silent, criminals are always entitled to remain.
(22) W Silent, criminals should always be entitled to remain.

(23) C Always are criminals entitled to remain silent.
(24) W Always should be criminals entitled to remain silent.
(25) C Always should criminals be entitled to remain silent.
(26) W Always, criminals are entitled to remain silent.
(27) W Always, criminals should be entitled to remain silent.

(28) C/T Many books has he read.
(29) C/T His field must the farmer plow this morning.
(30) C/T The whole day have they been happy.
(31) C/T My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained.
(32) W Watered his fields has the farmer this morning.
(33) W Watered were his fields by the farmer this morning.
(34) W Having a great time were they in Cancun.
(35) C/T Happy have they been the whole day.
(36) C Sullen might he look but deep within he is smiling.
(37) W Sullen might he look but deep within smiling is he.
(38) C All morning would he sit in class.
(39) C/T Now might the time to act have come.
(40) W/T In the backyard may the children play.
(41) C/T On the moon can craters be seen.
(42) C/T With their families should the winners celebrate.
(43) C Throughout the years has he read many books.
(44) C/T To Ireland has the boat delivered its cargo.

the C/T ones seem correct to me but not they usual way anyone would say it. the W/T seem very problematical but maybe in a poem or something they would be OK.

(1) C
(2) C

(3) W (Yoda? :D)
(4) W
(5) W/T
(6) W/T
(7) W/T

(8) W
(9) W
(10) W/T
(11) T
(12) T

(13) W
(14) W
(15) W
(16) W
(17) W

(18) W/T
(19) W
(20) W/T
(21) W (sounds like an order)
(22) W

(23) C
(24) W
(25) C
(26) W/T
(27) W/T

(28) T
(29) W/T
(30) W/T
(31) W/T
(32) W/T
(33) T
(34) W/T
(35) C/T
(36) C
(37) W/T
(38) T
(39) C
(40) T
(41) C
(42) C/T
(43) T
(44) T

Hope this helps

That's exactly why I was so interested in those examples - whether they are indeed possible when some part is stressed by moving it to the front of the sentence...
Possible is a tricky word, in context I would possibly understand what you are attempting to communicate, in terms of being correct, no.

A few weeks ago I was teaching my 5th graders directions and the phrase "Where is the ~". When it came time for them to preform, they applied what is correct in Japanese (Dropping just about everything and relying on the listener to figure out the meaning through context) and went around the classroom asking, "Library?" instead of 'Where is the library?' In context, it was possible for me to understand what they were asking, but it really sounded to me as if they were asking me if I was a library or perhaps named library.

Que a foda?!

Can I just say that a good many of the ones people have marked as "W" would in fact be weird in England or well-spoken in older English, yet technically correct in both (not "Old English", since that's Anglo-Saxon). Speakers of Germanic languages which are not English should bear in mind that whilst their word order is understood in England, it sounds very strange.

(1) Criminals are always entitled to remain silent. C
(2) Criminals should always be entitled to remain silent. C

(3) Entitled to remain silent are criminals always. T
(4) Entitled to remain silent should be criminals always. W
(5) Entitled to remain silent should criminals always be. T
(6) Entitled to remain silent criminals always are. W
(7) Entitled to remain silent criminals should always be. W

(8) To remain silent are criminals always entitled. W
(9) To remain silent should be criminals always entitled. W
(10) To remain silent should criminals always be entitled. W
(11) To remain silent criminals are always entitled. W
(12) To remain silent criminals should always be entitled. T (needs comma)

(13) Remain silent are criminals always entitled to. W
(14) Remain silent should be criminals always entitled to. W
(15) Remain silent should criminals always be entitled to. W
(16) Remain silent, criminals always are entitled to. W
(17) Remain silent, criminals should always be entitled to. W

(18) Silent are criminals always entitled to remain. T
(19) Silent should be criminals always entitled to remain. W
(20) Silent should criminals always be entitled to remain. W
(21) Silent, criminals are always entitled to remain. T
(22) Silent, criminals should always be entitled to remain. T

(23) Always are criminals entitled to remain silent. T
(24) Always should be criminals entitled to remain silent. W
(25) Always should criminals be entitled to remain silent. T
(26) Always, criminals are entitled to remain silent. T
(27) Always, criminals should be entitled to remain silent. T

(28) Many books has he read. C/T (sounds sort of "old", since youth will often say "lots of" instead of "many", and their word order is often less Germanic.)
(29) His field must the farmer plow this morning. T
(30) The whole day have they been happy. C/T
(31) My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. W
(32) Watered his fields has the farmer this morning. T
(33) Watered were his fields by the farmer this morning. T
(34) Having a great time were they in Cancun. W
(35) Happy have they been the whole day. C/T
(36) Sullen might he look but deep within he is smiling. C (needs comma)
(37) Sullen might he look but deep within smiling is he. T
(38) All morning would he sit in class. C
(39) Now might the time to act have come. C
(40) In the backyard may the children play. T
(41) On the moon can craters be seen. T
(42) With their families should the winners celebrate. T
(43) Throughout the years has he read many books. C/T
(44) To Ireland has the boat delivered its cargo. T

(1) C
(2) C

(3) W
(4) W
(5) T
(6) W
(7) T

(8) W
(9) W
(10) W
(11) W
(12) W

(13) W
(14) W
(15) W
(16) W
(17) W

(18) T
(19) W
(20) W
(21) T
(22) T

(23) T
(24) T
(25) T
(26) T
(27) T

(28) T
(29) T
(30) W
(31) T
(32) W
(33) T
(34) T
(35) W
(36) W
(37) W
(38) c
(39) w
(40) t
(41) c
(42) t
(43) c/t depends on if it's a statement or a question, more correct as a question
(44) c


*My disclaimer of course, is that I might not be trusted. I speak American more than English and Okie more than American. Oklahomans are notorious for our misuse of the language and poor grammar.

I can't stand prepositions at the beginning or end of the sentence. All of those were marked wrong only because they annoy me. I'm unsure if there is an actual rule as to where prepositions belong.

prepositions should always have an object after them so they should never end a sentence. sometimes they just have to.

is this really some kind of brain experiment? the more incorrect sentences i read the harder it is to tell if its OK, badly worded or flat out wrong.

prepositions should always have an object after them so they should never end a sentence. sometimes they just have to.

is this really some kind of brain experiment? the more incorrect sentences i read the harder it is to tell if its OK, badly worded or flat out wrong.

I'm running on quite a bit of a hangover today. I'm sure I incorrectly identified many wrong phrases.

I think the prepositions at the beginning might remind me of Yoda... I know the verbs at the beginning do.

Thanks for your reply!

It's funny you should say that. Yoda does indeed make use of inversion and preposing constructions.

"Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can."

Inversion with fronted adjective: Strong is Vader. (Vader is strong.)
Imperative inversion construction (addressee = subject): Mind what you have learned. (You mind what you have learned.)
Preposing: Save you it can. (It can save you.)

That's exactly why I was so interested in those examples - whether they are indeed possible when some part is stressed by moving it to the front of the sentence...

(BTW, Yoda does speak correct English. It sounds funny, but it ain't wrong!)

It seems your examples are all German grammar imposed on English sentences. The first two are straightforward and correct. ALL of the rest would be considered florid or poetic constructions -- rearranging the sentence structure to achieve a rhyme or some desired metric pattern. Correct they may be, but common usage, they are certainly not.

As an amateur English linguist/etymologist, I applaud your research.

prepositions should always have an object after them so they should never end a sentence. sometimes they just have to.

Or, as Winston Churchill once quipped:

"Improper grammar is something up with which I will not put."

Possible is a tricky word, in context I would possibly understand what you are attempting to communicate, in terms of being correct, no.
Oh, you're absolutely right. Of course it is possible to utter utter nonsense. Maybe I should have used the word felicitous to describe what I really meant.
A few weeks ago I was teaching my 5th graders directions and the phrase "Where is the ~". When it came time for them to preform, they applied what is correct in Japanese (Dropping just about everything and relying on the listener to figure out the meaning through context) and went around the classroom asking, "Library?" instead of 'Where is the library?' In context, it was possible for me to understand what they were asking, but it really sounded to me as if they were asking me if I was a library or perhaps named library.
Hehe, thanks for sharing that. Made me smile.
Can I just say that a good many of the ones people have marked as "W" would in fact be weird in England or well-spoken in older English, yet technically correct in both (not "Old English", since that's Anglo-Saxon). Speakers of Germanic languages which are not English should bear in mind that whilst their word order is understood in England, it sounds very strange.
Thanks for your comment. I was wondering whether really all my constructions were ill-formed or simply needed to be regarded as archaic or obsolete - both of which would not necessarily make them ungrammatical.

*My disclaimer of course, is that I might not be trusted. I speak American more than English and Okie more than American. Oklahomans are notorious for our misuse of the language and poor grammar.
I'd be happy to get results from the other side of the big pont, too!
I can't stand prepositions at the beginning or end of the sentence. All of those were marked wrong only because they annoy me. I'm unsure if there is an actual rule as to where prepositions belong.
There is no rule that forbids the placing of prepositions at the end. However, it is usually the way people talk.

{Which house}1 did he go into t1? <- usually spoken
{Into which house}1 did he go t1? <- usually written

prepositions should always have an object after them so they should never end a sentence. sometimes they just have to.
Ah, that's an omission to avoid repetition: sometimes they just have to [end a sentence].

"This is nonsense up with which I will not put!" :eek: (Attributed to Churchill whose sentences were "corrected" by an over-eager editor)
is this really some kind of brain experiment? the more incorrect sentences i read the harder it is to tell if its OK, badly worded or flat out wrong.
It's not supposed to be one - but after dealing with this sort of thing for a couple of weeks you might understand why I could have reached a point where only others can help me out.
I'm running on quite a bit of a hangover today. I'm sure I incorrectly identified many wrong phrases.

I think the prepositions at the beginning might remind me of Yoda... I know the verbs at the beginning do.
Yoda: "When my age you reach, look as good you will not."
Stacey (Pink5): "When my age you were, look as good you didn't!"


Anyway, a big thank you to everyone who took the time and made the effort to help me out. Really appreciate it!!!

It seems your examples are all German grammar imposed on English sentences. The first two are straightforward and correct. ALL of the rest would be considered florid or poetic constructions -- rearranging the sentence structure to achieve a rhyme or some desired metric pattern. Correct they may be, but common usage, they are certainly not.

As an amateur English linguist/etymologist, I applaud your research.
That is the problem with which I'm struggling.

I have found a great deal of correct English inversion constructions - but it seems that whenever I try to mould them to my purposes, I fail.

(The first two sentences are CWO, canonical word order. With the rest, I did a little shuffling around - and... poop!

I'm just glad that this is only a small part of what I'm trying to achieve. Otherwise... but let's not even think of that!
Or, as Winston Churchill once quipped:

"Improper grammar is something up with which I will not put."
Bingo!!! :hail:

I can't stand prepositions at the beginning or end of the sentence. All of those were marked wrong only because they annoy me.

You'd tear your hair out after a few hours in Michigan. Ending sentences with prepositions is one of the hallmarks of the Michigan accent.

Anyone else feel like they could take a short break from whatever they're doing and have a look at my examples?

Anyone else feel like they could take a short break from whatever they're doing and have a look at my examples?

I don't have anything to add, since I agreed with Ryadn %100.

Oh, and I didn't know someone other then me watched Pink five :D

I don't have anything to add, since I agreed with Ryadn %100.
Thanks for stating at least that. ;)

It's still the more, the merrier. Hopefully someone else feels differently and is willing to share it with me.

Oh, and I didn't know someone other then me watched Pink five :D
But of course. How did Yoda put it? "Totally!"
Pink5 is great.

A Sunday morning, not much to do...

Feel like teasing your brain a little?

If so, please have a look at the sentences. Thank you!

The only ones I think are correct and I like are 1,2,28 and 38.

Yea, I'll have to go with what raydn said as well. While there might be nothing wrong with them exactly.. they're not easily understood either.

(American English speaker, if that means anything to you.)

Hello generalites,

today I would like to ask the native speakers of English here to help me out with a couple of sentences, please. It really won't take too long and you'd be helping me tremendously!

I'm trying to establish whether the following examples are indeed well-formed English sentences. While one might not encounter them on a daily basis in the English language, I would like to know whether they are possible when the item placed at the front needs to be stressed; when the focus of the sentence needs to be shifted.

I've tried my best to manage on my own but since I'm no native speaker, there's always the chance to superimpose German grammar on English sentences which renders decision-making near impossible when it comes to this.

I have provided an answer template at the end of the list so you'd only have to C&P that and decide whether my examples are.

C Correct (No problem)
W Wrong (Big problem)
T Tolerable (Sounds odd but is okay)

Thank y'all very much, appreciate your effort! Hope that at least some of you are willing to help me out! Thanks again, appreciate your support!!!

The German Nightmare


Here come the examples:

(1) Criminals are always entitled to remain silent.
(2) Criminals should always be entitled to remain silent.

(3) Entitled to remain silent are criminals always.
(4) Entitled to remain silent should be criminals always.
(5) Entitled to remain silent should criminals always be.
(6) Entitled to remain silent criminals always are.
(7) Entitled to remain silent criminals should always be.

(8) To remain silent are criminals always entitled.
(9) To remain silent should be criminals always entitled.
(10) To remain silent should criminals always be entitled.
(11) To remain silent criminals are always entitled.
(12) To remain silent criminals should always be entitled.

(13) Remain silent are criminals always entitled to.
(14) Remain silent should be criminals always entitled to.
(15) Remain silent should criminals always be entitled to.
(16) Remain silent, criminals always are entitled to.
(17) Remain silent, criminals should always be entitled to.

(18) Silent are criminals always entitled to remain.
(19) Silent should be criminals always entitled to remain.
(20) Silent should criminals always be entitled to remain.
(21) Silent, criminals are always entitled to remain.
(22) Silent, criminals should always be entitled to remain.

(23) Always are criminals entitled to remain silent.
(24) Always should be criminals entitled to remain silent.
(25) Always should criminals be entitled to remain silent.
(26) Always, criminals are entitled to remain silent.
(27) Always, criminals should be entitled to remain silent.

(28) Many books has he read.
(29) His field must the farmer plow this morning.
(30) The whole day have they been happy.
(31) My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained.
(32) Watered his fields has the farmer this morning.
(33) Watered were his fields by the farmer this morning.
(34) Having a great time were they in Cancun.
(35) Happy have they been the whole day.
(36) Sullen might he look but deep within he is smiling.
(37) Sullen might he look but deep within smiling is he.
(38) All morning would he sit in class.
(39) Now might the time to act have come.
(40) In the backyard may the children play.
(41) On the moon can craters be seen.
(42) With their families should the winners celebrate.
(43) Throughout the years has he read many books.
(44) To Ireland has the boat delivered its cargo.

And here's the template to copy and paste:

(1)
(2)

(3)
(4)
(5)
(6)
(7)

(8)
(9)
(10)
(11)
(12)

(13)
(14)
(15)
(16)
(17)

(18)
(19)
(20)
(21)
(22)

(23)
(24)
(25)
(26)
(27)

(28)
(29)
(30)
(31)
(32)
(33)
(34)
(35)
(36)
(37)
(38)
(39)
(40)
(41)
(42)
(43)
(44)

Coming to Nationstates to learn the English language is probably not the best idea in the world.

Most on here are Americans and can't speak English themselves, so what hope is there for you? Hahaha ;)

And if it helps, I'm a native Scots English speaker.Oh please, everyone knows that the Scots only speak a bastardized version of English, e.g. they speak with an acute accent which makes them unable to fit into any group of refined persons.

*Mutters damn Scots for around an hour.*

Coming to Nationstates to learn the English language is probably not the best idea in the world.

Most on here are Americans and can't speak English themselves, so what hope is there for you? Hahaha ;)Well, I do not speak British English, but I speak AmerICAN English, which is acutally the more proper form as more people speak it.:hail:

It does. :) Greetings to Glasgow!
No probs.

I realise Scots English is rather different, both in words used ('janitor', 'wee' and 'pinkie' being good examples of Scots words that have been adopted by other English dialects) and grammar, to other English variations.

Oh please, everyone knows that the Scots only speak a bastardized version of English, e.g. they speak with an acute accent which makes them unable to fit into any group of refined persons.
Och, hod yer whisht ye wee scunner!

Coming to Nationstates to learn the English language is probably not the best idea in the world.
Neither is coming to my thread and not contributing to the topic.

Most on here are Americans and can't speak English themselves, so what hope is there for you? Hahaha ;)
It's an easy way to test a theory against native speakers, wise guy. Ever thought about that? You don't even know what I was trying to do, so STFU.:mp5: